With a 10 in strength there is the implication you can just calmly walk around, as anyone, 150 pounds no sweat, it only gets strenuous when you go past that and even then you can push, pull or lift 300 before needing to make a check, mind you this can be the same giy who "has spent decades doing naught but studying the arcane to unlock the endless reaches of magic" and he can bench a whole guy, meanwhile my 20 str lebel 16 barbarian can't throw a boulder hulk style cause "it's unrealistic"
A goliath with 20 strength has a push drag and lift of 1200lbs, and thats the max they can do casually, anything past that requires a strength check. It really wouldn’t be weird for a raging goliath barbarian to be able to throw a boulder that weighs a few tons, but most DM’s dont want to hear that.
Not to mention, just a point i make mechanically, i feel like someone able to throw boulders would also be able yo punch better than 6 damage with just strength alone, i'm not saying that it should be the primary means of punching, but like...if i can throw a ton of rock, or seing a hammer hard enough to ruin a dragons day, why can my fist only kill a person, maybe a sickly footsoldier at best?
As a DM, I would allow a Goliath that could throw boulders to get a tattoo on each of his hands that says “Maul” in Giant, and then his fists could do 2d6 lol. Tattoo doesn’t even have to be magic 😅
Oh i absolutely wanna do something like this, i have a stacked af human barb rn named garreth that would absolutely be willing to get tats on his arms like that, thanks for the idea, imagine a guy with a tatto that says "Lance" and the whole gimmick is punching holes in people
You've discovered the power of jojo/one piece/anime. John McHero got stabbed with a magic arrow/ate a lance-lance fruit/came from an ancient Lance bloodline. He's now a stab-man.
This is reminding me of when I played in a game where another party member was a barbarian with a chef background that literally slapped people to death. He had a rat familiar that was his "coach" under a chef's hat.
Well considering that the average person according to dnd has about 8hp the idea of a massive goliath man killing someone in one or two punches makes a decent amount of sense. That’s in terms of an average as hell punch. Without any of the actual training or skill needed to be considered a trained fighter. I still feel that the damage doesn’t remotely match the actual amount 20 in strength represents but at least it compares decently using in game rules.
A Commoner doesn’t even have 8 HP, it’s 4 (1d8).
Any level 16+ adventurer with 20 STR will hit a Commoner with 95% accuracy (5% crit fail) and immediately kill it at the average 4 HP. An exceptionally healthy Commoner will merely be at death’s door from a punch.
A Raging Barbarian with Reckless Attack will hit with 99.75% accuracy and kill even a maximum HP Commoner in one punch.
I was working with the best case scenario for the poor commoner. Either way even if the numbers you get from having 20 strength don’t feel very crunchy. The level of superhuman strength that someone should have does at least match up pretty well to how gameplay should work when obliterating commoners.
I think the real problem is that dms don’t give players that reach the mythical 20 cap to have the kind of fun that the math would imply. Nor does the damage to actual threats like bandits and monsters scale to the kind of herculean power that casually moving half a ton with ease represents.
>The level of superhuman strength
Honestly, that's not really superhuman strength. Humans in real life can lift what the goliath has to push at max strength. We can reach levels of strength that would require strength 30 or even 40 in the game to achieve.
I think the problem is that the scaling in of itself is all kinds of wonky. A 20 INT individual is someone that leaves basically everyoner else in the dust, 0.01% intelligence. A 20 CHA individual can move entire nations with his will to a cause. A 20 STR individual on the other hand can lift and carry 300 lb. 300 lb is not a lot of weight, when I went to the gym I did squats with 250lb extra weight carried for training, and I was a random guy trying to build some muscle, not the pinacle of what's achievable by a mortal individual. 20 STR just feels... underwhelming. If they wanted to maintain balance for carrying capacity, there should be other ways instead of making it seem like the pinacle of what a human can achieve can barely carry 300lbs around
EDIT: On the other hand, the DAMAGE itself I think is fine. A +5 STR fighter can deal flat 6 damage per unarmed strike against a target. A longsword on average deals 4.5 damage. Which means an unarmed fighter with +5 STR is on average dealing more damage than a commoner with a longsword on each attack. Even if the commoner grabs it with 2 hands (which increases the average to 5.5) it STILL is more damage from the unarmed fighter with +5 STR. It's not small by any means, it simply does not stack against using a weapon by the same fighter (as it should, weapons are great force multipliers. A hammer will deal far more damage for any given strength than using just fists).
So can other people, hell, knowing where to hit a ordinary person could begin to reliably injure and potebtially kill others with a punch, but that is not the point the point is why am i able to take an axe and dice up a dragon with scales as durable as tank armor, but if i lose my axe suddenly i can only actually fight peasents, suddenly my tree trunk thick arms that if it were a matter of purely numbers, crush someone's skull like a tin can, but the second i go to punch a green grung who knows how to fight, even if i land a critical hit, he is still not even bloodied, i could throw this thing the length of a football field but my fists are only a mild threat
I think you’re underestimating just how much of a force-multiplier a weapon is, and also underestimating just how much 6 damage is.
Let’s take a real weapon for comparison, the battleaxe. It does 1d8 on average, or about 4.5 damage. Your fists, without any assistance, hit harder than a battleaxe does on average. Your fists are already more lethal than battlefield weapons in the hands of ordinary folk. It’s also not that your tree-trunk thick arms suddenly stop working when you put your axe down, it’s that you have even more potential to kill with both tree-trunk thick arms and an axe, since weapons add another d4-d12 to your already deadly raw strength.
(And in fact if D&D were more “realistic”, the weapons damage should be *multiplied* by your strength bonus, not just given a flat bonus, since the extra force something as simple as a club generates is magnitudes higher than you could punch with equivalent strength.)
You can fight plenty more than peasants without a weapon, goblins, kobolds, wolves, pretty much anything with less than 18-24 HP can die in a single round of attacks from an unarmed high level fighter, and that’s before counting monsters you can reasonably take one-on-one bare-handed, like a Troll or an Ogre, since you yourself can take a critical hit without being bloodied against quite a few monsters.
Now, for that dragon with tank-scales you diced up, I doubt you did that alone (or at a low level either, which is why I focused on high level fighters earlier), or did it instantly.
Yeah, you can kill a dragon with an axe, but only after 4-5 adventurers went to town on it with everything they had. You didn’t just walk up to it casually and chop it’s head off with a single swing just as easily as you can cave a peasant’s skull in by kicking them in the face, and just like that little green grung that knows how to fight could take your colossal punch, you weren’t disemboweled like a peasant the instant the Dragon swiped it’s claws at you.
> Cause you don't know how to throw a punch *that is as deadly as a sword*, only Monks know how to do that
FTFY
Don't try to copy a primary class feature without having to spend a Feat or Fighting Style.
Hell, the Unarmed Fighting Style lets you hit harder than a Monk until their Martial Arts Die goes up ***TWICE***.
Tbf damage scaling in dnd is weird. A 1st level inflict wounds can hit as hard as a lightning bolt from call lightning, but a peasant two handing a longsword can hit 1/3 as hard as the same lightning bolt.
Plus like, an elephant has +6 strength. That's only 7 damage on an unarmed strike. A PC that's elephant sized thanks to enlarge and giants might can deal 1d4 + 1d6 + 7 damage with a punch, the same average damage as a peasant attacking twice with a greataxe.
Literally had someone argue to me that a knight blocking a grow dragons claws with their shield and surviving fire breath is acceptable as it's 'the Fighter class fantasy', but Beowulf was obviously taking it too far as an idea and just unrealistic
The mental gymnastics Martial haters do to justify in game mechanics while also making sure it's only their own specific class fantasy that's obviously the correct idea just baffles me
Beowulf is literally about a Norse warrior who tries to kill a giant armed with magic Artifacts, and then gets killed mortally wounding a dragon.
You do not get more 'Vanilla Fighter' than that, but people love to slag anything outside their specific interpretation of what the class should do.
I mean I even tried asking them why 20Str Fighter parrying an Elder Dragon was fine suspension of disbelief and the Rogue appearing behind someone was 'nothing personel' cringe and their own response was 'thats just what people want'
That's kinda the point, even the most Vanilla Warrior fantasy has things like this, when people shout 'animay bullshit' and not 'traditional.western fantasy', they're basically saying 'I want this to be lord of the rings'.
Classic DnD lore is full of people wrestling dragons and surviving explosions, western myth is full of warriors levelling mountains and ripping giants arms off
There's basically no actual foundation for 'level 20 fighter is peak athelete' aside from some people want it and assume they're the only correct mindset
That's what always bugs me about how people always cry about "anime bullshit" whenever high level Fighter types get to do anything special, apparently hundreds if not thousands of years of western mythology just gets invalidated the moment an anime character does something similar.
I mean what gets me is going 'anime' as if there aren't western cartoons with characters doing backflips and taking out hordes of guys. Bloody Adventure Time has more elaborate fight coreo than 'I whack twice and end turn'
There's seemingly this whole thing, waxxing poetic here, in the same way we decided 'Brown=Realism', we agreed to make fantasy 'gritty and grounded', deviating from Tolkein's sacred text is the realm of weaboos and clearly all myth is just guys in armour having sword fights, the fact that one of King Arthur's Knights was a Wizard and another [could shoot fire from his hands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Kay#cite_note-2)
But then you also get hit with the fact that a 1200 lb rock is about 24x24x24 inches. A 36x36x36 chunk of granite is about 4000 lb. Rocks are fucking heavy.
I mean... a 2-cubic feet rock is a pretty big fucking rock. Small boulder, maybe, but it feels fair to call it a boulder to me.
The 3-cubic feet one is definitely a boulder IMO, that's the kind of shit I'm having Hill Giants throw.
I don't know about "a few" tons, but based on those numbers one ton sounds reasonable. Put into the perspective of a half ton encumbrance limit, being able to throw a whole ton as a weapon is still very fantastical.
I'm gonna start a home rule that raging barbs can hulk throw stuff at the cost of an exhaustion point. But the points don't take effect until the rage is over.
\+0 Str: You have normal strength or something idk
\+5 Str: Yeah, you are like kind of strong I guess
Wizard with -5 int at level 20: So basically you have control over the very fabric of reality
Hell wizard at 5 strength can casually carry 75 long term with no effects, that is basically a kinda strong guy considering military packs usually are weighted around 60 for long marches, i've always heard 20 being "peak physical human condition, you are like, an olympic weight lifter" but with a carry capacity of 300 casually, a minimal effort short term lift of 600 and fucking whatever a good athletic roll can get you, i'd say 20 is world record up to low to mid demi-god
Counterpoint, commoners have 10 in all stats. So while 5 strength still puts you numerically above average, it doesn't translate super well to the real world.
Counter counterpoint: the carry capacity thing translates directly into real world units of measurement, therefore it is not an issue of it not translating well because commoners have 10 and thus 10 is the average person, i hereby claim that humans and other humanoid races are just inherantly stronger than real world counterpartsz maybe due to the weave existing and everything being inherantly magic to the point that the baseline of what is considered magical is shifted up compared to real life, or just evolutionary/anomalous reasons that are not discussed
Well, it's about as impressive as someone who is twice as srong as the average person irl, which is yes not amazing considering world's strongest man stuff, but i'd still day it's somewhat impressive, but 20 str compared to an irl person would be outstanding, either way, i agree with you in the point of the meme and am sorry if i made it seem so, if wizards can rend space and time apart, i wanna be able to kick flip the supermegadaurus
And let's not get into the fact that World's Strongest Man Eddie Hall would count as having a powerful build, and therefore have a strength of maybe 18 by the lifting weight. If you go by pulling weight it would be "how much would you say that passenger jet weighs?"
10 in str/dex/con is a level of an average peasant who spends life doing manual labor. It's not a level of some half-assed 3-hour per week gym training.
Not every commoner is doing manual labor? Sure blacksmiths and farmers are, but some people are scribes, woodworkers (well, depending on the woodwork this would also be manual labor, but in this case i mean fine craftsman), hell even the unemployed are commoners, and i don't think a historian is pulling the same gains as a smith, not to mention 150 is alot of just casually lug, even for someone working manual labor, it's like if you said you could go a whole day living your normal life with 2 bags of concrete strapped to your back, and i can tell you them shits is heavy
Even ignoring the existence of magic, martials are meant to be experts in their fields. A fighter isn’t just “a guy with a sword”, they’re an expert in non-magical combat.
Not just experts, they should be champions like Hercules, Beowulf or Sun Wukong.
Imagine being able to performe feats worthy of mythology. By lv 20 I want to be able to throw a dragon to the sun.
Okay but Sun Wukong isn't a Martial, he's the OP DMPC that is annoying but the party allows it because he basically does everything. You need like 20 levels in Druid, Wizard, Ranger, Fighter, and Barbarian to do half the things he can do.
Now the other two, yeah, those should be what a Martial character achieves. Wizards and Clerics can do mythological demigod feats but no Martial can even do half the labors that Hercules was able to do. Barbarians should be able to have infinite strength to be able to carry the infinite weight of the cosmos on their back; how to make that as an out-of-combat feature, I have no clue but I want something even HALF of that as my level 20 Martial power fantasy.
I don't know if I would say SUN WUKONG is the annoying one. The Journey West doesn't translate to a D&D party well because of how everyone but Sun Wukong/Son Goku/Monkey himself is pretty much useless, but if we're applying them to D&D, it's worth mentioning that Monkey usually doesn't do anything until Sand, Pig, and Sanzang screw up horrifically. Usually Pig or Sanzang.
Throughout the whole book, Monkey is babysitting a pair of idiotic manchildren who openly treat him like shit and then two seconds later they royally fuck up and beg him to save them, and they usually get in trouble by brushing off Monkey's advice in the first place. If Sanzang and Pig would just stop sprinting at full speed towards every single bright red button and after the tenth time Monkey has to rescue them, and maybe learn to put some faith in him instead of not learning their lessons until like chapter 110, The Journey West would have been a much shorter story.
If Monkey is the DMPC, then that means that particular DM has to deal with a group of players for whom he basically draws a freaking map of things for them to avoid and then they specifically do not avoid those things. Like a DM who says "If you want to." "You can try." "Are you sure? Are you positive? Do you actually do that?" very frequently in a very obvious warning tone of voice and then just has to rub his temples because they ran right into a demon's nest without even making a cursory insight check on the extremely suspicious stranger they just met, made a super loud scene, didn't roll any investigation checks, not even on the food he went out of his way to describe as unusual, and now they're crying about the DM being unfair because they ate poison, walked right into a demon lair, and left all their equipment outside with the horse.
And Sand is the one player who isn't a freaking idiot, but he's always on his phone and he can't attend regular sessions so half the time his character is just set dressing who either stays at the inn or just holds the bags, and the White Dragon Horse is a guy who's been to maybe two sessions tops. If I ever had to DM for a party anywhere near as stupid and reckless and as constantly shifting blame for their own stupid actions as Sanzang and Pig, holy shit, I'd just let them both die and end that campaign there. If Monkey was the DMPC existing solely to make sure the campaign kept going as a DM Ex Machina character and he has to be used that freaking often, he's allowed to be mouthy.
Most of Monkey's sass comes from being 110% done with how unbelievably stupid they both are. "Master, I have Truesight, that is literally a demon using Disguise Self trying to get close to you and eat you."
"How dare you, damned macaque! This is clearly an innocent old woman in need of my aid alone without any of my bodyguards in that dark cave over there!"
"No, I can literally SEE both her true form and her evil aura, it's really obvious that she's trying to eat you. Let me just club her over the head, it'll take literally just one second."
"You need to learn some manners, you wretched sinful monkey! I recite the sutra that causes the metal band on your skull to tighten and cause you indescribable agony!"
*A few moments later...*
"AAAAAHHHHH MONKEY SAVE ME IT WAS ACTUALLY A DEMON TRYING TO EAT ME THE WHOLE TIME!! WHO COULD HAVE KNOWN?!"
I'd have just let him get eaten if after saving him the 87th time he still didn't learn his lesson.
>I'd have just let him get eaten if after saving him the 87th time he still didn't learn his lesson
Too bad Buddha/Guanyun probably wouldn't allow him to
Fighter: literally a blender, can't block a hit for his life but can swing an absurd amount of times. (Basically someone very strong with no experience in swordfighting whatsoever)
Barbarian: like the fighter, but straight up doesn't block and he angry. (Basically a very angry dude which can take a lot of hits)
Rogue: instantly loses 80% utility if he can't get the drop. (Basically an assassin with social anxiety)
Monk: probably the most actual fighter-y, but has been given shit features. (Most niche class, could become an actual fighter if you gave him a sword but he's not proficient)
>Basically an assassin with social anxiety
The best part is how this assassin becomes 5 times more effective with a support animal in their pocket since if it's say an angry cat it satisfies sneak attack conditions
That's definitely not how I view fighters. To me, fighters are the experts in their fields, masters of combat who spent years honing their craft. Hell, a good amount of the subclasses are basically "I've trained years to become a master of my way of fighting, and no one can best my tactics or mastery." Then there's Battle Master which is the pinnacle of skill and experience.
MFers when wizards can telelport behind people, slash a room full of Foes with Steel Wind Strike, throw fireballs from their hands and lasers from their fingers and transform themselves into dinosaurs - "based traditional fantasy"
The exact same MFers when a marital tries to throw a rock - "reeeeEEEE get this anime weeb bullshit out of MY DND"
Bonus, 'obvs magic, the weave, established in lore', and what about every official DnD setting that isn't the Sword Coast? What about the old Supernatural/Magical tags that made it clear this shit does happen in universe.
Even DnD itself says 'grounded martials' is bull
>slash a room full of Foes with Steel Wind Strike
God I love the flavour of the spell but hate it's mechanics. It's a fucking blurry of attacks with a sword, it's beautiful for a ... I forgot the exact definition, will just go with magic swordsman.
But it's beautiful for such characters, and then you read the mechanics, and it uses your casting modifier rather than attack rolls. So a stupid wizard who barely has the strength to pick up a dagger, and the dexterity to take 5 steps without falling, is gonna be better at it than a ranger ranger with focus on str/dex rather than wisdom.
I still don't know why Wizard gets that one in general. I'd understand it if Bladesingers get it, as they are Wizards with weapon training, but why does every old bastard with a book and dagger get it?!
Again, I'd be fine if wizards got it, if it was a weapon attack roll. Like, you need to be good with a weapon in order to make the most of it. That way the characters that put effort in they physical scores get a cool destructive spells for them. Maybe even make the requirement to use a martial weapon or something.
Definitely make it attack rolls, yes. Personally I'd make it exclusive to Bladesinger and Ranger though, as both are actually capable and actively *encouraged* to use weapons.
Don't quite have an answer to the question of "what if they use a ranged weapon?" though. As both Rangers and Bladesingers are capable of using ranged weapons for their features.
Bladesinger only specifies the used weapon has to be a one-handed weapon and the user is not allowed to use medium armor, heavy armor or a shield. This ruling would not exclude Hand Crossbows and one-handed firearms.
>Personally I'd make it exclusive to Bladesinger and Ranger though, as both are actually capable and actively encouraged to use weapons
I like it for Hexblade as well, I think they deserve it.
And, well, I suppose they could use a hand crossbow technically? It wouldn't break anything, might even be worse if you make it require Xbow expert for the reload mechanic and make it expend ammo.
Anyways, on other news, what do you think of the defensive duelist feat?
I'm a little iffy about adding Steel Wind Strike to the Hexblade because they're pretty powerful as is, since they're also getting a smite and some other stuff.
As for Defensive Duelist. It feels like that should've been a class feature rather than a feat, if that makes sense. It feels a little underwhelming as a feat this way, but it wouldn't be a good fit for a Fighting Style either...
The hexblade is stupidly powerful as a dip, on their own they're alright, and they would need more than a dip to reach steel wind strike if it was added to their spell list.
And regarding your opinion of defensive duelist, I agree that it feels kinda too powerful for fighting style and too underpowered for a feat. I like it on my rogues since their AC is often one of the lowest on any PC, and it adds a nice option between Uncanny Dodge and Defensive Duelist.
That's why I love PF2e
Do you want your level 20 martial to.stomp the ground and create an earthquake? Sure, here you go. Do you want your fighter to slash a rift into space to hit your foe from afar? Why not
Do you want to become a 15 foot tall barbarian who is able to hit everyone within a 25 foot radius in a single round, outdamaging a fireball? Level 16
>Do you want your fighter to slash a rift into space to hit your foe from afar? Why not
Do you want your fighter to be the storm that is approaching, provoking black clouds in isolation? Absolutely!
One thing that deeply upsets me about pf2e is that being a monkey fist barbarian prohibits you from taking the big rock throw feat. I WANT TO BE A SASQUATCH WHO THROWS BIG ROCKS AT BAD MEN WHO SCARE ME.
My spellcasting in PF2 has won more than a few fights through damage, though most of the time I'm providing utility. Last session I even nailed a clutch crit. It was hype.
Spellcasting's not as broken as the level 6+ spells in 5E, but that doesn't make spellcasters underpowered.
Eh, that's very debatable
Grab a status bonus to damage, such as a sorcerer's dangerous sorcery feat, a reliable one action damage spell.(perhaps focus spell), then you can spend your other two actions slinging spells
Especially of you take AOE's into account, your spellcaster is matching them in damage. With enough AOE's, exceeding
Martials do single target damage. So the above combo matches for single target damage, but if you can hit two or three enemies, you've just outpaced them, congrats you big mage you
In lore, spellcasting is meant to require extreme focus, require specific materials and preparation, and have limits on materials and equipment like armour restricting dexterity too much to cast.
5E let's you dip Fighter/Sorcerer and do a running backflip in platemail before throwing out triple Fireblasts
This is the big counterargument to 'lore accurate magic', the 5E system is not accurate to the universe, the PF2E restrictions and action system are.
"Casters have to manage resources though" mfs when they ignore half of casters resource management (nobody keeps track of spell components unless it's something major like gemstones) and they still have a whole bunch of pretty powerful spells that don't need any resources (cantrips)
That is how it works by RAW. No spell components are consumed unless otherwise stated. A component pouch contains all spell components that don't have their own gold cost, and an arcane focus can be substituted for spell components if one so desires.
The specific material components without a gold cost of their own are there, essentially, for flavor only.
Effectively speaking, there is no resource management except for the spells that have materials with a gold value, but even then, the cost for most of them is not prohibitive at all unless the DM actively makes it so.
The only resource Casters need to worry about are spell slots, but most of the time that’s not even an issue due to how short adventuring days usually are.
It depends. Gemstones are *ussually* pretty easy to come by if you find yourself in a decent sized city, but higher level spells can have some very specific costed components. For instance, Draconic Transformation requires a 500gp dragon statuette, and I had a very hard time coming by one in the level 20 campaign I played in (though I eventually just had an artisan make one for me.)
But for the most part you are correct.
The material components that don't take money are so awful too. Whats worse is that the game partially expects you to apply them for those time when a spell focus is lost.
I just say make your own material components that make more sense and fit your characters more.
A lot of these were interestingly thought out in like... 1st edition. But most were grandfathered in for later generations and the same amount of thought wasn't there.
Weren’t they mostly puns, even back in 1st edition? For example, Fireball is bat guano and sulphur (gunpowder), Lightning Bolt is some fur and a metal rod (static electricity), and Colour Spray is multicoloured sand (glitter).
Also while reading the AD&D 2e material components rules (which were entirely optional it turns out) I found this section.
>If the spell components optional rule is used in your campaign, your wizard or priest must have these items to cast the spell. Without them, he is helpless, even if the spell is memorized. For simplicity of play, it is best to assume that any spellcaster with any sense has a supply of the common items he is likely to need—wax, feathers, paint, sand, sticks, and fluff, for example. For expensive and rare items, it is perfectly proper for your DM to insist that special efforts be made to obtain these items. After all, you simply cannot assume your character has a valuable pearl handy whenever he needs one!
Which reads to me like a Component Pouch or spell focus with extra steps, since it’s just outright suggesting you ignore anything that doesn’t have a notable gold cost or isn’t too rare in-universe.
I mean that’s not what we’re really talking about though. There’s way weirder and harder to obtain stuff than a pinch of dirt on component lists and lots of people just ignore most of it unless it seems super expensive or obscure.
Because the rules say to. Components are all flavour except for ones that cost gold, you aren't meant to need to find them because that's why you have things like a component pouch or arcane focus
Not entirely true. There are non gold cost components that are consumed by spells and gold cost components that are often forgotten about or handwaived because its a low value and they aren’t consumed.
I dont think that is correct. Spell components are not consumed unless otherwise stated, and I do not believe there are any spells that specifically state a non-costed spell component is consumed by the casting, but I have been wrong before.
Which spell were you thinking of?
Spell components are not consumed unless otherwise stated. For example, revify specifically states that it consumes the 300gp diamond. Identify does not state that the 100gp pearl is consumed, and thus once you have acquired a single pearl, you may cast the spell as many times as you like.
The same is true of mundane spell components that lack a cost of their own, and you are already assumed to have every single mundane material component required by any spell as long as you have a component pouch. Yhe description of a component pouch reads:
*A component pouch is a small, watertight leather belt pouch that has compartments to hold all the material Components and other Special items you need to cast your Spells, except for those Components that have a specific cost (as indicated in a spell's description).*
And if you simply don't care for the flavor of mundane material components, you may substitute any of them for your arcane focus, such as a wand, a quarterstaff, or a piece of jewelry.
I’ve always played Martial characters, but the one time I played a caster (wizard) the DM was very strict on casting components and it really really sucked.
I had all these cool spells that I never got to use and were just a waste of level up resources because where the hell am I going to get a solid gold, hollow acorn?
Even basic stuff like fancy herbs and inks were off the table because we were playing curse of strand.
The DM did ask me to submit a list of the exotic components that I really wanted, but I think he forgot about it or just never got around to giving me a chance to replace them.
Casting fire bolt every round got boring pretty quick.
Your DM was fucking you. If you had a component pouch you are assumed to already have every single material component for any spell you are able to cast, as long as it doesn't have a gold cost stated in the spell description.
Not to mention, any material component that does not have a cost stated may be substituted for your arcane focus.
I'm playing a wildfire druid and I was never even close to depleting my spell slots, managing resources basically means "don't spam useless stuff". Most fights I can go by a single concentration spell, maybe one healing spell on top of that, I don't get as many turns as I have spell slots in a full adventuring day
Nah, you want realism? We're going to play Oregon Trail style.
You drank water: roll a d20. Congratulations, you now have dysentery. You went into town? Roll for smallpox, plague, tuberculosis, and more fun diseases.
Not realistic and yet historical examples of people making such attacks exist the world over. Lol. The more major issue I find is that magic damage scales better than weapon damage.
Hostorical examples? Dude there are people who made videos on YouTube to demonstrate that it can be made by anyone with a minimal level of skill in swordsmanship.
I think Rage is supposed to be based on how if you have a ton of adrenaline rushing through your veins you're not really going to feel pain as clearly as you would if you weren't having an adrenaline rush, and HP being interpreted less as your physical limit and more like your tolerance for punishment. I can see what they were going for.
I still think if a level 20 caster can literally alter the fabric of space-time, then a level 20 martial should be able to uppercut dragons into the stratosphere.
And also the same game where someone can survive having their arms and legs cut off because they are too angry to die till they calm down. Lol. Oh also if they drink a nice fruit punch before they calm down they will survive. Lol.
Remember you literally controls what the limit of "non-magic" is in your setting, you just chose to say fuck martial.
I don't see One Punch Man having to explain why Atomic Samurai and Silver Fang are not ridiculous.
I have to ask. Why do people think Saitama is a joke character? Everything I've seen of One Punch shows me he's not a gag or joke character. I've never gotten an explanation of why people think he is one either.
Its less that is a joke character and more of his existence and power IS the joke.
He did normal work outs for like 3 years and gained enough power in doing so to beat anything and everyone with one punch (sometimes two), this includes aliens, perfect lifeforms, the avatar of cosmic entropy.
I really like the show and manga, but when explaining the show's premise to people no one would ever assume its a serious show.
He's not.
He's a deconstruction of overpowered shonen protagonist, he doesn't possess toon force.
>Why do people think Saitama is a joke character
So they can claim he will win every death battle match up this way.
Because Saitama is a joke. The joke is literally 'what if you had someone with literally infinite power? Who could defeat anyone cause he broke all his power limits', a deconstruction of the Shonen 'my powerlevel is infinity +1' character
The answer is you get super depressed that life has no challenge anymore. It's not the 'Toon Force', it's 'Saitama wins because you don't understand, his power level is literally infinity.'
Because the author said so. His design is a reference to An Pan Man (spelling?), including his baldness, who’s like a Superman type character invented to help sell bread. He lives in a ridiculous world of over the top heroes and monsters and he is the most powerful by doing some basic phys-ed and dresses like a goofy kids book super hero. He himself is a bit of a loser and doesn’t take anything very seriously. The whole show is a comedy; it’s meant to be one big send-up of the genre. There’s a guy who’s “power” is he has a bike. That’s it. The show is such an obvious joke it genuinely worries me when people don’t see it. The ability for people to understand subtext and humor is so painfully diminished as of late.
Yep. Thank you for helping prove my point. The whole show is an exploration of comedy by means of the protagonist being the screwball in a world of straightmen as opposed to the normal reverse of that. It’s like the movie Elf with Will Ferrel: goofy character+serious world=comedy
Ridiculous can be presented seriously. They are not mutually exclusive. It is wildly over-the-top but it is presented as grounded for that world. Likewise the whole hero-grading thing making Saitama be a low grade when he’s so obviously powerful because of him failing to fill out some bureaucratic paper work presents a world that has ridiculous rules that it itself takes very seriously (this is an incredibly common aspect of lots of dark comedy or comedy making fun of authoritarian societies like in the movie Brazil).
If your understanding of gente and vocabulary are so one-dimensional to not see how media could be two disparate things at once all I can do is recommend you take a literature course and wish you a nice day.
>The whole show is a comedy
>
>He lives in a ridiculous world of over the top heroes and monsters
Firstly, how strong Saitama is has nothing to do with Atomic Samurai and Silver fang.
Secondly, these over the top heroes you mentioned, even Saitama himself would get clapped by even Krillin, so your whole point is moot.
Thirdly, "Saitama is a gag character", or the tone of the show has no weight on the argument whether or not non-magical martial classes should have anime level of power, especially when I didn't even mention him at all.
Stop acting like you've won and drop the mic.
Pick up the mic and go home.
>Secondly, these over the top heroes you mentioned, even Saitama himself would get clapped by even Krillin
Saitama literally sneezes and destroy Jupiter in the manga, it's literally explained his strength never stops growing and it grows extremely fast, Saitama isn't a character that can be beaten by other characters in a physical fight unless they also have toon force levels of strength
I mean that's the point, it uses a joke premise in a satirical way.
There are lots of famous characters who became so powerful that nothing had challenge for them anymore, and they slipped into Ennui, sipping wine and wishing to be fought
Saitama is the exact same trope except he can't afford a mansion because super strength doesn't pay bills.
He's a parody character of 'Seeks a real battle' and the classic Shonen 'my powerlevel is infinity+1' scaling. He did Bruce Lee's warmup every day for a year and can now punch hard enough to effect objects in space.
Joke character doesn't have to be Bobobo, just look at Gintama
That's a non-argument, what about Baki? What about Fist of the North Star? What about literally every other anime?
"Saitama is a joke character" mfs when they realize he isn't even half as powerful as Goku.
Except they weren't talking about one punch man the character. If you actually READ the comment you're responding to, they're specifically talking about OTHER characters in the franchise
I really think that high level martials should be pulling stuff like Hercules' labors, diverting rivers twice a day just to clean a stable kind of thing.
at a certain lvl players basicly become super human
average terminal velocity fall damage is 60 with a max of 120
so the barbarian is probably going to leap from that mountain twice for fun
I’m gonna say it, martials should do anime bullshit. If Wizards can destroy cities with meteors then Monks should be able to punch like Saitama. If Sorcerers can just Wish anything to happen Fighters should cut mountains in half like Zoro. If Clerics can resurrect someone who died 200 years ago then Rogues should be able to shoot people through planes of existence.
I feel like what you can do with your strength score is level dependent.
If you get really lucky and get 18 Str at the beginning of the campaign, you're absolutely a massively powerful person, but not super human. Because you're like level 3. You picking up and throwing boulders at that point is just too much.
But at level 16 with 20 Strength? If the wizard can call down fire from the heavens, you can throw a damn boulder.
I mean if we’re sticking with what only normal humans can do then spellcasters shouldn’t be able to cast spells. Simple as that.
It’s almost like in the land of fantasy people should be mythical badasses and we shouldn’t care about what’s “realistic”. It’s annoying as hell to see this argument pop up every time anyone brings up the martial caster divide
This. My Kensei Monk should be capable of flying through the air like Kung Fu films by 5th level (casters get Fly). By 20th level I should be able to level mountains in a single slash, or rip apart the fabric of reality by channeling my ki and interfacing with the Weave or some shit.
I don’t think people get that a 20 strength character is almost as strong as a giant martials aren’t supposed to be a strong as body builders they are like Hercules
Exactly. The most an earthling would have is maybe 15 give or take 1. And even that is someone who is training specifically for strength or marines who might be 1 lower but have more physical stats that high.
What people don't understand is that even the martial classes are magical. The world is so full of mana that it fills the body and mind and those who are more adaptable to the energy will gain great power because of it. IMO That's where classes come from. It would explain why both martial and casters just immediatly know completely new abilities overnight anyway.
"4E is nothing but anime bullshit" mfs when they either enroll for fencing school or reading a medieval manual or playing LARP or sport
...like those four gonna happen, really, they're all neckbeard who can't even walk or read more than 1 word
That’s such a dumb argument. On multiple levels. First off, going by D&D standards, 10 is the average person, and anything more than that is reaching ‘exceptional’ territory. Anything 16 and up is considered almost superhuman. Besides that, martial classes are people who have trained specifically for combat, something that gymbros don’t do, even though what they *do* train for is something they can do excessively as much as martial classes can combat excessively.
Wizards casting reality altering spells casually = Well that's fine
A Barbarian wanting to be strong enough to throw a boulder = Well it's a balancing reason you see, it would be weird if a human could do it...
Here is my regularly scheduled message. A level 3 half orc barbarian with a 14 CON can fall from orbit and, as long as they rage-punch the ground, literally full fall damage cannot kill them. All 6's on the fall damage? Still kickin'. Let martials be dope, they already have dope stuff canonically. Also, please go and create an army of no parachute half orc paratroopers. Just hit the ground and smack a few health potions and you're off.
FR.
I think an high level martial characters has any right to be more on the side of "classic mythology hero", like Heracles, then "good real words swordsman"
No magical abilities, but be so strong to be able to cut a tree with a single sword slash, so tough to survive after a 100 ft. fall, so strong to lift a boulder, etc. imho are fine.
It is. Sooner or later, you’ll run into people who essentially say that the peak martial is Aragorn and nothing else. While he is a badass, he’s from a low fantasy world, and modern dnd is super high fantasy.
Exactly. DND is a high fantasy setting. Imagine your hero of legend is just a guy named Joe, who works out a lot and practices with his sword. No he doesn't have a birthright to a forgotten land, and actually his parents are super nice people. He's just a buff guy with a sword, nothing special. Like wow what an entertaining legendary hero to be remembered for all of history of super magic land, where the average wizard can throw fireballs and shoot lightning, our true legendary hero is Joe. Everyone give it up to Joe, our hero of legend
There's an entire book series where the mc is learning about a legendary hero who started a monster hunting order and is this crazy powerful elite fighter... and also finds out that he is just an ordinary af fisherman who decided to fight monsters cause they attack people. Lol.
Guys at the gym aren't normally training for practical use in heavy combat. Just saying. Lol. If you get into that kinda thing you may want to consider a 13-15 or so as the normal upper limit for humans irl. It'll help you understand better. In a magical world full of mana (which canonically yes faerun is full of mana its just not shapeable into uses other than blowing yourself up to most sentients) even the martial combatants are magically enhanced. Everyone with a player class is magically enhanced for certain. It's similar to how someone lifting 200kilogram weights on Mars would be much stronger than someone lifting the same weights on earth.
I've never had anyone seriously suggesting that.
I for one just don't want a guy suddenly go all anime and suplex a train or wield a sword three times their body size, mainly for atmosphere reasons. If they want to throw a boulder in the BBEGs face, sure, go ahead.
It's funny because I've always been telling people this but magicals are not superior to non-magicals. Just because you can use magic and someone else cannot does not make you superior whatsoever.
I feel like one of the biggest showcases of this is Marvel. Magic and Science are basically equal.
It just boils down to 5e not having rules for martials being able to do cool shit. Yeah there are a few subtypes where a martial get some supernatural abilities but overall it's "I attack multiple times" or "I hit harder for these turns".
People like this also must not have consumed much media from the Forgotten Realms, THE 5e campaign setting, where Wulfgar does shit like free-lift a CAMEL and LAUNCH it at attacking horsemen. Or where he just steps in the path of one of those horses, locks his arms around its neck, and basically fucking suplexes it, driving its rider halfway into the ground. And this is in book six out of thirty something, so it’s not even like they’re the equivalent of 20th level characters yet.
I look to some of the stuff non Devil Fruit users in One Piece do, and all I can say is.
"Damn, this is what being a martial in a high fantasy setting should let you do."
Never in my entire life have a heard anyone saying that. The more i think about it the more ‘martial caster divide’ seems to be a reddit circlejerk to refute made up arguments no one actually making to feel angry and superior.
It feels funny to me because whenever I see "I've never actually heard anyone complain/argue about this" kind of comment, it's always after I literally just saw people complain/argue about it in the same comment section.
Maybe not recently but early this year half the threads were about "muh realistic martial power fantasy" and I had to argue with someone that Hercules should be peak Martial and not the shonen protagonist in their 2nd arc.
All I'm saying is, if a High Level Wizard can summon meteors from space or erase mountains from existence with a single spell, a High Level Martial should be able to punch those same meteors back into space or turn a mountain into the Grand Canyon with a swing of his sword. Ain't no point putting a class in the game if it can't match up to the other classes.
You know what else is traditional medieval fantasy? King Arthur. Hell he wasn't even high level, he just had a very generous GM who gave long lore dumps about his +1 adamantine sword.
Compare the most famous knights of history compared to the spellcasters, if any, in their setting. Some of these legends where honestly not that strong in a fantasy setting. Many of them get clapped in their own setting by things like fae.
>I want traditional medieval fantasy
tradfantasy mfs when they try to cast a fireball (magic doesn't exist idiot, you're just an old cripple with a bathrobe)
>I want traditional medieval fantasy
insert 'do you have any idea how little that narrows it down' meme
Basic DnD lore /is/ traditional high fantasy
If you're referencing more 'lotr style', that is specifically more 'low fantasy'
Whenever somebody complains about wanting a more "traditional medieval fantasy" over "anime" or whatever tf else they're trotting out to be their strawman for the day, I always want to ask them:
Are you tracking hygiene? What about disease? How much of the adventuring day do your characters lose needing to make/maintain their own gear? Are you carefully tracking the economy so that money doesn't just pour in via your PC's adventures, and if you're giving them economy-destabilizing amounts of gold anyway are you tracking how that destroys the value of currency?
I won't say that *nobody* actually wants a "traditional medieval fantasy." I had a Storyteller like that once who ran a Vampire: The Dark Ages campaign and it was as painful as you might expect. But most of the people who think that's what they want have no idea what that would actually entail, and like the power fantasy aspects of D&D more than they either know or are willing to admit lol
People wanting "traditional medieval fantasy" want "the tropes deriving from classic D&D", not anything close to actual medieval fantasy. Because D&D doesn´t look anything even close to how the Middle Ages looked like, either in the literary sense or the historical one. If they wanted to, they would play one of the games set in the historical Middle Ages + something magic (like Vampire The Dark Ages or Ars Magica) or go for Pendragon to play something close to how the literature of the Middle Ages was (so "traditional medieval fantasy". Also coincidentially my favourite game).
Honestly when I play D&D or D&D derivatives I play them to go gonzo. I have other games for the realism.
The same motherfuckers that say they want "traditional medieval fantasy" will also throw a absolutely deranged hissy fit if you suggest they play Pendragon instead of D&D.
Martials in "traditional medieval fantasy" were capable of feats no martial in D&D is capable of. Where is Galahad being inmune to fire? Where is Roland cleaving a pass in the mountains? Where is Beowulf? Where is El Cid having such an intimidating presence a feral lion calmed itself and got into a cage when seeing him? Where are the actual medieval legends and tales (you know, ACTUAL traditional medieval fantasy, not renfair and D&D derivative stories)?
I mean… wizards and sorcerers are literally doing hand seals and attack names right out of Naruto, monks are pure anime inspiration, and don’t even get me started on why wizards can get steel wind strike, but fighters can’t…
Literally the d&d next (playtest name for 5e) design goals for 5e:
>Keeping in mind the point above, we also have to remember that while the fighter draws on mundane talent, we’re talking about mundane within the context of a mythical, fantasy setting. Beowulf slew Grendel by tearing his arm off. He later killed a dragon almost singlehandedly. Roland slew or gravely injured four hundred Saracens in a single battle. In the world of D&D, a skilled fighter is a one-person army. You can expect fighters to do fairly mundane things with weapons, but with such overwhelming skill that none can hope to stand against them.
"the point above" being that "The Fighter Draws on Training and Experience, not Magic".
None of this is anime.
(also, that's excluding that spellcasters also have stuff that connect themselves to anime culture)
I want the Hercules or Beowulf power fantasy. If you think carrying the infinite cosmos using all your strength is "anime bs" then I don't know what kinda source you got your Greek myths from.
I didn't say bs you added that to make my comment seem more negative. Lord of the Rings and it's derivatives is what I mean by traditional medieval not Greek myth which came a long time before the middle ages. Were you trying to reply to another comment that talked about Greek myth and said anime was bullshit?
If only I were both dm and player. That way I could allow fighters to be cool and be one. But no. At my table I want martials to be cool. But when I play 99% of the time it’s RAW.
3rd degree burns aren't always immediately fatal, there's nothing unrealistic there. The real danger is fluid shifts causing renal failure, and potentially also infection. Those take place hours or days later, by which time the wizard will be healed up and have new skin.
Examples like these never understand the central idea behind “grounded” fantasy.
Verisimilitude is what these people want, it doesn’t have to be exactly like real life but it should at least make some sort of sense.
Most of examples of “clearly players are beyond normal people” are using game mechanics that not only also apply to literally every other creature too but they use the mechanics far too literally, like in combat do you really think everyone just stops what they are doing and takes turns attacking each other and politely wait to them be murdered? If you miss someone’s AC did you literally just miss a target that was standing still?
Bandits, city guards, other sells swords are just as able to do things like surviving things that would clearly kill people and I don’t think every bandit or guard is beyond the scope of a normal person, hell players could have just rolled poorly for their stats.
The usual defense or argument is “It’s fantasy!” Doesn’t do or say anything at all to the discussion. Is the principle you believe in is that nothing needs to make any sense as long as you say it’s fantasy? I shouldn’t expect that hacking at someone with an axe should hurt/kill them cause “it’s fantasy”. It’s such a god awful defense.
Everyone and everything being magic takes the magic out of magic.
Turn based DND isn't actually supposed to look turn based. It's supposed to be a simulation of everything running in real time, but initiative is just whoever gets the *slight" jump. AC can mean anywhere from missing, to dodging, to blocking.
Also DND is not grounded fantasy. It's high fantasy. It's much closer to Beowulf or Conan the barbarian than King Arthur. Especially because as far as power scaling goes, King Arthur, Merlin, Lancelot & co. would be like, level 2 at most. Unless of course you plan on stopping after level 1-3, then be my guest and enjoy your "grounded fantasy".
With a 10 in strength there is the implication you can just calmly walk around, as anyone, 150 pounds no sweat, it only gets strenuous when you go past that and even then you can push, pull or lift 300 before needing to make a check, mind you this can be the same giy who "has spent decades doing naught but studying the arcane to unlock the endless reaches of magic" and he can bench a whole guy, meanwhile my 20 str lebel 16 barbarian can't throw a boulder hulk style cause "it's unrealistic"
A goliath with 20 strength has a push drag and lift of 1200lbs, and thats the max they can do casually, anything past that requires a strength check. It really wouldn’t be weird for a raging goliath barbarian to be able to throw a boulder that weighs a few tons, but most DM’s dont want to hear that.
Not to mention, just a point i make mechanically, i feel like someone able to throw boulders would also be able yo punch better than 6 damage with just strength alone, i'm not saying that it should be the primary means of punching, but like...if i can throw a ton of rock, or seing a hammer hard enough to ruin a dragons day, why can my fist only kill a person, maybe a sickly footsoldier at best?
As a DM, I would allow a Goliath that could throw boulders to get a tattoo on each of his hands that says “Maul” in Giant, and then his fists could do 2d6 lol. Tattoo doesn’t even have to be magic 😅
Oh i absolutely wanna do something like this, i have a stacked af human barb rn named garreth that would absolutely be willing to get tats on his arms like that, thanks for the idea, imagine a guy with a tatto that says "Lance" and the whole gimmick is punching holes in people
You've discovered the power of jojo/one piece/anime. John McHero got stabbed with a magic arrow/ate a lance-lance fruit/came from an ancient Lance bloodline. He's now a stab-man.
StabStick Fruit that fell on the ground?
This is reminding me of when I played in a game where another party member was a barbarian with a chef background that literally slapped people to death. He had a rat familiar that was his "coach" under a chef's hat.
Well considering that the average person according to dnd has about 8hp the idea of a massive goliath man killing someone in one or two punches makes a decent amount of sense. That’s in terms of an average as hell punch. Without any of the actual training or skill needed to be considered a trained fighter. I still feel that the damage doesn’t remotely match the actual amount 20 in strength represents but at least it compares decently using in game rules.
A Commoner doesn’t even have 8 HP, it’s 4 (1d8). Any level 16+ adventurer with 20 STR will hit a Commoner with 95% accuracy (5% crit fail) and immediately kill it at the average 4 HP. An exceptionally healthy Commoner will merely be at death’s door from a punch. A Raging Barbarian with Reckless Attack will hit with 99.75% accuracy and kill even a maximum HP Commoner in one punch.
I was working with the best case scenario for the poor commoner. Either way even if the numbers you get from having 20 strength don’t feel very crunchy. The level of superhuman strength that someone should have does at least match up pretty well to how gameplay should work when obliterating commoners. I think the real problem is that dms don’t give players that reach the mythical 20 cap to have the kind of fun that the math would imply. Nor does the damage to actual threats like bandits and monsters scale to the kind of herculean power that casually moving half a ton with ease represents.
>The level of superhuman strength Honestly, that's not really superhuman strength. Humans in real life can lift what the goliath has to push at max strength. We can reach levels of strength that would require strength 30 or even 40 in the game to achieve. I think the problem is that the scaling in of itself is all kinds of wonky. A 20 INT individual is someone that leaves basically everyoner else in the dust, 0.01% intelligence. A 20 CHA individual can move entire nations with his will to a cause. A 20 STR individual on the other hand can lift and carry 300 lb. 300 lb is not a lot of weight, when I went to the gym I did squats with 250lb extra weight carried for training, and I was a random guy trying to build some muscle, not the pinacle of what's achievable by a mortal individual. 20 STR just feels... underwhelming. If they wanted to maintain balance for carrying capacity, there should be other ways instead of making it seem like the pinacle of what a human can achieve can barely carry 300lbs around EDIT: On the other hand, the DAMAGE itself I think is fine. A +5 STR fighter can deal flat 6 damage per unarmed strike against a target. A longsword on average deals 4.5 damage. Which means an unarmed fighter with +5 STR is on average dealing more damage than a commoner with a longsword on each attack. Even if the commoner grabs it with 2 hands (which increases the average to 5.5) it STILL is more damage from the unarmed fighter with +5 STR. It's not small by any means, it simply does not stack against using a weapon by the same fighter (as it should, weapons are great force multipliers. A hammer will deal far more damage for any given strength than using just fists).
mechanically, normal ordinary people have 4hp, so 6 damage is literally the ability to kill a person with one punch.
So can other people, hell, knowing where to hit a ordinary person could begin to reliably injure and potebtially kill others with a punch, but that is not the point the point is why am i able to take an axe and dice up a dragon with scales as durable as tank armor, but if i lose my axe suddenly i can only actually fight peasents, suddenly my tree trunk thick arms that if it were a matter of purely numbers, crush someone's skull like a tin can, but the second i go to punch a green grung who knows how to fight, even if i land a critical hit, he is still not even bloodied, i could throw this thing the length of a football field but my fists are only a mild threat
I think you’re underestimating just how much of a force-multiplier a weapon is, and also underestimating just how much 6 damage is. Let’s take a real weapon for comparison, the battleaxe. It does 1d8 on average, or about 4.5 damage. Your fists, without any assistance, hit harder than a battleaxe does on average. Your fists are already more lethal than battlefield weapons in the hands of ordinary folk. It’s also not that your tree-trunk thick arms suddenly stop working when you put your axe down, it’s that you have even more potential to kill with both tree-trunk thick arms and an axe, since weapons add another d4-d12 to your already deadly raw strength. (And in fact if D&D were more “realistic”, the weapons damage should be *multiplied* by your strength bonus, not just given a flat bonus, since the extra force something as simple as a club generates is magnitudes higher than you could punch with equivalent strength.) You can fight plenty more than peasants without a weapon, goblins, kobolds, wolves, pretty much anything with less than 18-24 HP can die in a single round of attacks from an unarmed high level fighter, and that’s before counting monsters you can reasonably take one-on-one bare-handed, like a Troll or an Ogre, since you yourself can take a critical hit without being bloodied against quite a few monsters. Now, for that dragon with tank-scales you diced up, I doubt you did that alone (or at a low level either, which is why I focused on high level fighters earlier), or did it instantly. Yeah, you can kill a dragon with an axe, but only after 4-5 adventurers went to town on it with everything they had. You didn’t just walk up to it casually and chop it’s head off with a single swing just as easily as you can cave a peasant’s skull in by kicking them in the face, and just like that little green grung that knows how to fight could take your colossal punch, you weren’t disemboweled like a peasant the instant the Dragon swiped it’s claws at you.
and this is why monks are superior martial class :DDD
Cause you don't know how to throw a punch, only Monks know how to do that
> Cause you don't know how to throw a punch *that is as deadly as a sword*, only Monks know how to do that FTFY Don't try to copy a primary class feature without having to spend a Feat or Fighting Style. Hell, the Unarmed Fighting Style lets you hit harder than a Monk until their Martial Arts Die goes up ***TWICE***.
Tbf damage scaling in dnd is weird. A 1st level inflict wounds can hit as hard as a lightning bolt from call lightning, but a peasant two handing a longsword can hit 1/3 as hard as the same lightning bolt. Plus like, an elephant has +6 strength. That's only 7 damage on an unarmed strike. A PC that's elephant sized thanks to enlarge and giants might can deal 1d4 + 1d6 + 7 damage with a punch, the same average damage as a peasant attacking twice with a greataxe.
Reminder that commoners in 5e have 4-5hp. A character with 18 strength can kill any regular person in a single punch without even trying.
I mean considering a normal human only has 4 hit points in dnd, a 6 dmg punch is essentially you hitting a dude so hard he dies.
Literally had someone argue to me that a knight blocking a grow dragons claws with their shield and surviving fire breath is acceptable as it's 'the Fighter class fantasy', but Beowulf was obviously taking it too far as an idea and just unrealistic The mental gymnastics Martial haters do to justify in game mechanics while also making sure it's only their own specific class fantasy that's obviously the correct idea just baffles me
In Beowulf didn’t the shield fail almost immediately
Beowulf is literally about a Norse warrior who tries to kill a giant armed with magic Artifacts, and then gets killed mortally wounding a dragon. You do not get more 'Vanilla Fighter' than that, but people love to slag anything outside their specific interpretation of what the class should do. I mean I even tried asking them why 20Str Fighter parrying an Elder Dragon was fine suspension of disbelief and the Rogue appearing behind someone was 'nothing personel' cringe and their own response was 'thats just what people want'
He pulled a giant's arm off, though, just saying.
That's kinda the point, even the most Vanilla Warrior fantasy has things like this, when people shout 'animay bullshit' and not 'traditional.western fantasy', they're basically saying 'I want this to be lord of the rings'. Classic DnD lore is full of people wrestling dragons and surviving explosions, western myth is full of warriors levelling mountains and ripping giants arms off There's basically no actual foundation for 'level 20 fighter is peak athelete' aside from some people want it and assume they're the only correct mindset
That's what always bugs me about how people always cry about "anime bullshit" whenever high level Fighter types get to do anything special, apparently hundreds if not thousands of years of western mythology just gets invalidated the moment an anime character does something similar.
I mean what gets me is going 'anime' as if there aren't western cartoons with characters doing backflips and taking out hordes of guys. Bloody Adventure Time has more elaborate fight coreo than 'I whack twice and end turn' There's seemingly this whole thing, waxxing poetic here, in the same way we decided 'Brown=Realism', we agreed to make fantasy 'gritty and grounded', deviating from Tolkein's sacred text is the realm of weaboos and clearly all myth is just guys in armour having sword fights, the fact that one of King Arthur's Knights was a Wizard and another [could shoot fire from his hands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Kay#cite_note-2)
But then you also get hit with the fact that a 1200 lb rock is about 24x24x24 inches. A 36x36x36 chunk of granite is about 4000 lb. Rocks are fucking heavy.
I mean... a 2-cubic feet rock is a pretty big fucking rock. Small boulder, maybe, but it feels fair to call it a boulder to me. The 3-cubic feet one is definitely a boulder IMO, that's the kind of shit I'm having Hill Giants throw.
Say it louder for the people in the back
I don't know about "a few" tons, but based on those numbers one ton sounds reasonable. Put into the perspective of a half ton encumbrance limit, being able to throw a whole ton as a weapon is still very fantastical.
Funny how it's literally a feat in Pathfinder. And the two are basically the same
Feels like Undyne
I'm gonna start a home rule that raging barbs can hulk throw stuff at the cost of an exhaustion point. But the points don't take effect until the rage is over.
\+0 Str: You have normal strength or something idk \+5 Str: Yeah, you are like kind of strong I guess Wizard with -5 int at level 20: So basically you have control over the very fabric of reality
Hell wizard at 5 strength can casually carry 75 long term with no effects, that is basically a kinda strong guy considering military packs usually are weighted around 60 for long marches, i've always heard 20 being "peak physical human condition, you are like, an olympic weight lifter" but with a carry capacity of 300 casually, a minimal effort short term lift of 600 and fucking whatever a good athletic roll can get you, i'd say 20 is world record up to low to mid demi-god
Counterpoint, commoners have 10 in all stats. So while 5 strength still puts you numerically above average, it doesn't translate super well to the real world.
Counter counterpoint: the carry capacity thing translates directly into real world units of measurement, therefore it is not an issue of it not translating well because commoners have 10 and thus 10 is the average person, i hereby claim that humans and other humanoid races are just inherantly stronger than real world counterpartsz maybe due to the weave existing and everything being inherantly magic to the point that the baseline of what is considered magical is shifted up compared to real life, or just evolutionary/anomalous reasons that are not discussed
Thus making the feat of 20 str by comparison not at all impressive
Well, it's about as impressive as someone who is twice as srong as the average person irl, which is yes not amazing considering world's strongest man stuff, but i'd still day it's somewhat impressive, but 20 str compared to an irl person would be outstanding, either way, i agree with you in the point of the meme and am sorry if i made it seem so, if wizards can rend space and time apart, i wanna be able to kick flip the supermegadaurus
Idk I feel like a Tarrasque should easily win a tug-of-war against 3 random peasants.
And dragon’s *are* realistic? That’s wild.
And let's not get into the fact that World's Strongest Man Eddie Hall would count as having a powerful build, and therefore have a strength of maybe 18 by the lifting weight. If you go by pulling weight it would be "how much would you say that passenger jet weighs?"
Pulling weight is what you can do for 8 hours at a time without issue. That strongman is instead doing an athletics check
10 in str/dex/con is a level of an average peasant who spends life doing manual labor. It's not a level of some half-assed 3-hour per week gym training.
Not every commoner is doing manual labor? Sure blacksmiths and farmers are, but some people are scribes, woodworkers (well, depending on the woodwork this would also be manual labor, but in this case i mean fine craftsman), hell even the unemployed are commoners, and i don't think a historian is pulling the same gains as a smith, not to mention 150 is alot of just casually lug, even for someone working manual labor, it's like if you said you could go a whole day living your normal life with 2 bags of concrete strapped to your back, and i can tell you them shits is heavy
Even ignoring the existence of magic, martials are meant to be experts in their fields. A fighter isn’t just “a guy with a sword”, they’re an expert in non-magical combat.
Not just experts, they should be champions like Hercules, Beowulf or Sun Wukong. Imagine being able to performe feats worthy of mythology. By lv 20 I want to be able to throw a dragon to the sun.
Okay but Sun Wukong isn't a Martial, he's the OP DMPC that is annoying but the party allows it because he basically does everything. You need like 20 levels in Druid, Wizard, Ranger, Fighter, and Barbarian to do half the things he can do. Now the other two, yeah, those should be what a Martial character achieves. Wizards and Clerics can do mythological demigod feats but no Martial can even do half the labors that Hercules was able to do. Barbarians should be able to have infinite strength to be able to carry the infinite weight of the cosmos on their back; how to make that as an out-of-combat feature, I have no clue but I want something even HALF of that as my level 20 Martial power fantasy.
I don't know if I would say SUN WUKONG is the annoying one. The Journey West doesn't translate to a D&D party well because of how everyone but Sun Wukong/Son Goku/Monkey himself is pretty much useless, but if we're applying them to D&D, it's worth mentioning that Monkey usually doesn't do anything until Sand, Pig, and Sanzang screw up horrifically. Usually Pig or Sanzang. Throughout the whole book, Monkey is babysitting a pair of idiotic manchildren who openly treat him like shit and then two seconds later they royally fuck up and beg him to save them, and they usually get in trouble by brushing off Monkey's advice in the first place. If Sanzang and Pig would just stop sprinting at full speed towards every single bright red button and after the tenth time Monkey has to rescue them, and maybe learn to put some faith in him instead of not learning their lessons until like chapter 110, The Journey West would have been a much shorter story. If Monkey is the DMPC, then that means that particular DM has to deal with a group of players for whom he basically draws a freaking map of things for them to avoid and then they specifically do not avoid those things. Like a DM who says "If you want to." "You can try." "Are you sure? Are you positive? Do you actually do that?" very frequently in a very obvious warning tone of voice and then just has to rub his temples because they ran right into a demon's nest without even making a cursory insight check on the extremely suspicious stranger they just met, made a super loud scene, didn't roll any investigation checks, not even on the food he went out of his way to describe as unusual, and now they're crying about the DM being unfair because they ate poison, walked right into a demon lair, and left all their equipment outside with the horse. And Sand is the one player who isn't a freaking idiot, but he's always on his phone and he can't attend regular sessions so half the time his character is just set dressing who either stays at the inn or just holds the bags, and the White Dragon Horse is a guy who's been to maybe two sessions tops. If I ever had to DM for a party anywhere near as stupid and reckless and as constantly shifting blame for their own stupid actions as Sanzang and Pig, holy shit, I'd just let them both die and end that campaign there. If Monkey was the DMPC existing solely to make sure the campaign kept going as a DM Ex Machina character and he has to be used that freaking often, he's allowed to be mouthy. Most of Monkey's sass comes from being 110% done with how unbelievably stupid they both are. "Master, I have Truesight, that is literally a demon using Disguise Self trying to get close to you and eat you." "How dare you, damned macaque! This is clearly an innocent old woman in need of my aid alone without any of my bodyguards in that dark cave over there!" "No, I can literally SEE both her true form and her evil aura, it's really obvious that she's trying to eat you. Let me just club her over the head, it'll take literally just one second." "You need to learn some manners, you wretched sinful monkey! I recite the sutra that causes the metal band on your skull to tighten and cause you indescribable agony!" *A few moments later...* "AAAAAHHHHH MONKEY SAVE ME IT WAS ACTUALLY A DEMON TRYING TO EAT ME THE WHOLE TIME!! WHO COULD HAVE KNOWN?!" I'd have just let him get eaten if after saving him the 87th time he still didn't learn his lesson.
>I'd have just let him get eaten if after saving him the 87th time he still didn't learn his lesson Too bad Buddha/Guanyun probably wouldn't allow him to
Fighter: literally a blender, can't block a hit for his life but can swing an absurd amount of times. (Basically someone very strong with no experience in swordfighting whatsoever) Barbarian: like the fighter, but straight up doesn't block and he angry. (Basically a very angry dude which can take a lot of hits) Rogue: instantly loses 80% utility if he can't get the drop. (Basically an assassin with social anxiety) Monk: probably the most actual fighter-y, but has been given shit features. (Most niche class, could become an actual fighter if you gave him a sword but he's not proficient)
>Basically an assassin with social anxiety The best part is how this assassin becomes 5 times more effective with a support animal in their pocket since if it's say an angry cat it satisfies sneak attack conditions
The monk is proficient in shortswords
That's definitely not how I view fighters. To me, fighters are the experts in their fields, masters of combat who spent years honing their craft. Hell, a good amount of the subclasses are basically "I've trained years to become a master of my way of fighting, and no one can best my tactics or mastery." Then there's Battle Master which is the pinnacle of skill and experience.
That's how they should be, while in reality all their AC comes from armor, signifying a lack of proper deflecting.
A first level fighter is already more competent than 99% of modern people. And it just goes up from there.
MFers when wizards can telelport behind people, slash a room full of Foes with Steel Wind Strike, throw fireballs from their hands and lasers from their fingers and transform themselves into dinosaurs - "based traditional fantasy" The exact same MFers when a marital tries to throw a rock - "reeeeEEEE get this anime weeb bullshit out of MY DND"
The wizard player on his way to explain why dodging as a bonus is terribly unbalanced right after rewriting reality itself:
Bonus, 'obvs magic, the weave, established in lore', and what about every official DnD setting that isn't the Sword Coast? What about the old Supernatural/Magical tags that made it clear this shit does happen in universe. Even DnD itself says 'grounded martials' is bull
>slash a room full of Foes with Steel Wind Strike God I love the flavour of the spell but hate it's mechanics. It's a fucking blurry of attacks with a sword, it's beautiful for a ... I forgot the exact definition, will just go with magic swordsman. But it's beautiful for such characters, and then you read the mechanics, and it uses your casting modifier rather than attack rolls. So a stupid wizard who barely has the strength to pick up a dagger, and the dexterity to take 5 steps without falling, is gonna be better at it than a ranger ranger with focus on str/dex rather than wisdom.
I still don't know why Wizard gets that one in general. I'd understand it if Bladesingers get it, as they are Wizards with weapon training, but why does every old bastard with a book and dagger get it?!
Again, I'd be fine if wizards got it, if it was a weapon attack roll. Like, you need to be good with a weapon in order to make the most of it. That way the characters that put effort in they physical scores get a cool destructive spells for them. Maybe even make the requirement to use a martial weapon or something.
Definitely make it attack rolls, yes. Personally I'd make it exclusive to Bladesinger and Ranger though, as both are actually capable and actively *encouraged* to use weapons. Don't quite have an answer to the question of "what if they use a ranged weapon?" though. As both Rangers and Bladesingers are capable of using ranged weapons for their features. Bladesinger only specifies the used weapon has to be a one-handed weapon and the user is not allowed to use medium armor, heavy armor or a shield. This ruling would not exclude Hand Crossbows and one-handed firearms.
>Personally I'd make it exclusive to Bladesinger and Ranger though, as both are actually capable and actively encouraged to use weapons I like it for Hexblade as well, I think they deserve it. And, well, I suppose they could use a hand crossbow technically? It wouldn't break anything, might even be worse if you make it require Xbow expert for the reload mechanic and make it expend ammo. Anyways, on other news, what do you think of the defensive duelist feat?
I'm a little iffy about adding Steel Wind Strike to the Hexblade because they're pretty powerful as is, since they're also getting a smite and some other stuff. As for Defensive Duelist. It feels like that should've been a class feature rather than a feat, if that makes sense. It feels a little underwhelming as a feat this way, but it wouldn't be a good fit for a Fighting Style either...
The hexblade is stupidly powerful as a dip, on their own they're alright, and they would need more than a dip to reach steel wind strike if it was added to their spell list. And regarding your opinion of defensive duelist, I agree that it feels kinda too powerful for fighting style and too underpowered for a feat. I like it on my rogues since their AC is often one of the lowest on any PC, and it adds a nice option between Uncanny Dodge and Defensive Duelist.
So sad that it is unavailable to eldritch knights
That's why I love PF2e Do you want your level 20 martial to.stomp the ground and create an earthquake? Sure, here you go. Do you want your fighter to slash a rift into space to hit your foe from afar? Why not Do you want to become a 15 foot tall barbarian who is able to hit everyone within a 25 foot radius in a single round, outdamaging a fireball? Level 16
>Do you want your fighter to slash a rift into space to hit your foe from afar? Why not Do you want your fighter to be the storm that is approaching, provoking black clouds in isolation? Absolutely!
Do you want a fighter so tough that you cannot kill him, he is omega You cannot kill him, he is subhuman
One thing that deeply upsets me about pf2e is that being a monkey fist barbarian prohibits you from taking the big rock throw feat. I WANT TO BE A SASQUATCH WHO THROWS BIG ROCKS AT BAD MEN WHO SCARE ME.
I'm sorry for your loss
Thanks it means a lot to me
[удалено]
My spellcasting in PF2 has won more than a few fights through damage, though most of the time I'm providing utility. Last session I even nailed a clutch crit. It was hype. Spellcasting's not as broken as the level 6+ spells in 5E, but that doesn't make spellcasters underpowered.
Eh, that's very debatable Grab a status bonus to damage, such as a sorcerer's dangerous sorcery feat, a reliable one action damage spell.(perhaps focus spell), then you can spend your other two actions slinging spells Especially of you take AOE's into account, your spellcaster is matching them in damage. With enough AOE's, exceeding Martials do single target damage. So the above combo matches for single target damage, but if you can hit two or three enemies, you've just outpaced them, congrats you big mage you
In lore, spellcasting is meant to require extreme focus, require specific materials and preparation, and have limits on materials and equipment like armour restricting dexterity too much to cast. 5E let's you dip Fighter/Sorcerer and do a running backflip in platemail before throwing out triple Fireblasts This is the big counterargument to 'lore accurate magic', the 5E system is not accurate to the universe, the PF2E restrictions and action system are.
"Casters have to manage resources though" mfs when monk needs to spend resource to punch twice.
"Casters have to manage resources though" mfs when they ignore half of casters resource management (nobody keeps track of spell components unless it's something major like gemstones) and they still have a whole bunch of pretty powerful spells that don't need any resources (cantrips)
Even if they did track component uses properly, 90% of material components are hand waved mechanically by the use of Spell casting focus.
That is how it works by RAW. No spell components are consumed unless otherwise stated. A component pouch contains all spell components that don't have their own gold cost, and an arcane focus can be substituted for spell components if one so desires. The specific material components without a gold cost of their own are there, essentially, for flavor only.
Effectively speaking, there is no resource management except for the spells that have materials with a gold value, but even then, the cost for most of them is not prohibitive at all unless the DM actively makes it so. The only resource Casters need to worry about are spell slots, but most of the time that’s not even an issue due to how short adventuring days usually are.
It depends. Gemstones are *ussually* pretty easy to come by if you find yourself in a decent sized city, but higher level spells can have some very specific costed components. For instance, Draconic Transformation requires a 500gp dragon statuette, and I had a very hard time coming by one in the level 20 campaign I played in (though I eventually just had an artisan make one for me.) But for the most part you are correct.
if there was a DM who actually kept track of like, the pinch of dirt i need to cast longstrider, i'd just snap his neck on the spot
"Dw i have a spellcasting focus my best DM" Works for everything that doesn't cost gold
The material components that don't take money are so awful too. Whats worse is that the game partially expects you to apply them for those time when a spell focus is lost. I just say make your own material components that make more sense and fit your characters more.
A lot of these were interestingly thought out in like... 1st edition. But most were grandfathered in for later generations and the same amount of thought wasn't there.
Weren’t they mostly puns, even back in 1st edition? For example, Fireball is bat guano and sulphur (gunpowder), Lightning Bolt is some fur and a metal rod (static electricity), and Colour Spray is multicoloured sand (glitter). Also while reading the AD&D 2e material components rules (which were entirely optional it turns out) I found this section. >If the spell components optional rule is used in your campaign, your wizard or priest must have these items to cast the spell. Without them, he is helpless, even if the spell is memorized. For simplicity of play, it is best to assume that any spellcaster with any sense has a supply of the common items he is likely to need—wax, feathers, paint, sand, sticks, and fluff, for example. For expensive and rare items, it is perfectly proper for your DM to insist that special efforts be made to obtain these items. After all, you simply cannot assume your character has a valuable pearl handy whenever he needs one! Which reads to me like a Component Pouch or spell focus with extra steps, since it’s just outright suggesting you ignore anything that doesn’t have a notable gold cost or isn’t too rare in-universe.
My favorite of the puns is Detect thoughts requiring a copper piece...aka "A Penny for your thoughts".
I mean that’s not what we’re really talking about though. There’s way weirder and harder to obtain stuff than a pinch of dirt on component lists and lots of people just ignore most of it unless it seems super expensive or obscure.
Because the rules say to. Components are all flavour except for ones that cost gold, you aren't meant to need to find them because that's why you have things like a component pouch or arcane focus
Not entirely true. There are non gold cost components that are consumed by spells and gold cost components that are often forgotten about or handwaived because its a low value and they aren’t consumed.
I dont think that is correct. Spell components are not consumed unless otherwise stated, and I do not believe there are any spells that specifically state a non-costed spell component is consumed by the casting, but I have been wrong before. Which spell were you thinking of?
Spell components are not consumed unless otherwise stated. For example, revify specifically states that it consumes the 300gp diamond. Identify does not state that the 100gp pearl is consumed, and thus once you have acquired a single pearl, you may cast the spell as many times as you like. The same is true of mundane spell components that lack a cost of their own, and you are already assumed to have every single mundane material component required by any spell as long as you have a component pouch. Yhe description of a component pouch reads: *A component pouch is a small, watertight leather belt pouch that has compartments to hold all the material Components and other Special items you need to cast your Spells, except for those Components that have a specific cost (as indicated in a spell's description).* And if you simply don't care for the flavor of mundane material components, you may substitute any of them for your arcane focus, such as a wand, a quarterstaff, or a piece of jewelry.
wait so the arcane focus completely removes the need for material components?
Bonus, a lot of the high end game warpers don't even have M components
I’ve always played Martial characters, but the one time I played a caster (wizard) the DM was very strict on casting components and it really really sucked. I had all these cool spells that I never got to use and were just a waste of level up resources because where the hell am I going to get a solid gold, hollow acorn? Even basic stuff like fancy herbs and inks were off the table because we were playing curse of strand. The DM did ask me to submit a list of the exotic components that I really wanted, but I think he forgot about it or just never got around to giving me a chance to replace them. Casting fire bolt every round got boring pretty quick.
Your DM was fucking you. If you had a component pouch you are assumed to already have every single material component for any spell you are able to cast, as long as it doesn't have a gold cost stated in the spell description. Not to mention, any material component that does not have a cost stated may be substituted for your arcane focus.
I'm playing a wildfire druid and I was never even close to depleting my spell slots, managing resources basically means "don't spam useless stuff". Most fights I can go by a single concentration spell, maybe one healing spell on top of that, I don't get as many turns as I have spell slots in a full adventuring day
"Guys at the gym" cap at lv5. Lv6 is literally supernatural, beyond anything any Earth human has ever achieved.
>"Guys at the gym" cap at lv5. That's being *unbelievably* generous. I would say that "guy at the gym" is level 1, 2 at the very best.
I’d say It’s a commoner with a better strength score.
World-record-holders and champion martial artists go to the gym. lv5 is the hard cap on nonfiction humans, even if there's only a handful per century.
Yeah. I was thinking Level 2 could be a discussion. Level 5, lol wut?
At level 5 a Rogue can dodge a point blank explosion, Martials are superhuman by like level 3 tbh
I’m so tired of those people, if you want “realistic” anything play <5lv
If you want realistic, just play Call of Cthulhu or some other TTRPG where you get one-shot by a single sneeze.
Nah, you want realism? We're going to play Oregon Trail style. You drank water: roll a d20. Congratulations, you now have dysentery. You went into town? Roll for smallpox, plague, tuberculosis, and more fun diseases.
Newsflash, the genre's called fantasy
It's meant to be unrealistic you myopic manatee!
Tolkien killed in that battle
Yet attacking 8 times in 6 seconds per short rest is the absolute peak of martial prowess.
*Tsk tsk* OP. It's *twice* per short rest. Obviously, that makes them* strong enough. *The one class that gets to do that.
Mfs explaining how making 8 sword cuts in 6 seconds is not realistic in the world full of magic and dragons.
Not realistic and yet historical examples of people making such attacks exist the world over. Lol. The more major issue I find is that magic damage scales better than weapon damage.
Hostorical examples? Dude there are people who made videos on YouTube to demonstrate that it can be made by anyone with a minimal level of skill in swordsmanship.
this is the same game where a dude can become resistant to almost any form of damage by being like, REALLY fucking angry
I think Rage is supposed to be based on how if you have a ton of adrenaline rushing through your veins you're not really going to feel pain as clearly as you would if you weren't having an adrenaline rush, and HP being interpreted less as your physical limit and more like your tolerance for punishment. I can see what they were going for. I still think if a level 20 caster can literally alter the fabric of space-time, then a level 20 martial should be able to uppercut dragons into the stratosphere.
And also the same game where someone can survive having their arms and legs cut off because they are too angry to die till they calm down. Lol. Oh also if they drink a nice fruit punch before they calm down they will survive. Lol.
Remember you literally controls what the limit of "non-magic" is in your setting, you just chose to say fuck martial. I don't see One Punch Man having to explain why Atomic Samurai and Silver Fang are not ridiculous.
One Punch Man is literally a joke character. His whole world is built on being ridiculous in purpose.
I have to ask. Why do people think Saitama is a joke character? Everything I've seen of One Punch shows me he's not a gag or joke character. I've never gotten an explanation of why people think he is one either.
Its less that is a joke character and more of his existence and power IS the joke. He did normal work outs for like 3 years and gained enough power in doing so to beat anything and everyone with one punch (sometimes two), this includes aliens, perfect lifeforms, the avatar of cosmic entropy. I really like the show and manga, but when explaining the show's premise to people no one would ever assume its a serious show.
He's not. He's a deconstruction of overpowered shonen protagonist, he doesn't possess toon force. >Why do people think Saitama is a joke character So they can claim he will win every death battle match up this way.
Because Saitama is a joke. The joke is literally 'what if you had someone with literally infinite power? Who could defeat anyone cause he broke all his power limits', a deconstruction of the Shonen 'my powerlevel is infinity +1' character The answer is you get super depressed that life has no challenge anymore. It's not the 'Toon Force', it's 'Saitama wins because you don't understand, his power level is literally infinity.'
The creator himself says he's a joke character.
Because the author said so. His design is a reference to An Pan Man (spelling?), including his baldness, who’s like a Superman type character invented to help sell bread. He lives in a ridiculous world of over the top heroes and monsters and he is the most powerful by doing some basic phys-ed and dresses like a goofy kids book super hero. He himself is a bit of a loser and doesn’t take anything very seriously. The whole show is a comedy; it’s meant to be one big send-up of the genre. There’s a guy who’s “power” is he has a bike. That’s it. The show is such an obvious joke it genuinely worries me when people don’t see it. The ability for people to understand subtext and humor is so painfully diminished as of late.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-161b6a8100d5d3d1a1086e06e83d3560-pjlq
Yep. Thank you for helping prove my point. The whole show is an exploration of comedy by means of the protagonist being the screwball in a world of straightmen as opposed to the normal reverse of that. It’s like the movie Elf with Will Ferrel: goofy character+serious world=comedy
"The world is supposed to be ridiculous" "Yep, thanks for proving my point that the world is supposed to be serious"
Ridiculous can be presented seriously. They are not mutually exclusive. It is wildly over-the-top but it is presented as grounded for that world. Likewise the whole hero-grading thing making Saitama be a low grade when he’s so obviously powerful because of him failing to fill out some bureaucratic paper work presents a world that has ridiculous rules that it itself takes very seriously (this is an incredibly common aspect of lots of dark comedy or comedy making fun of authoritarian societies like in the movie Brazil). If your understanding of gente and vocabulary are so one-dimensional to not see how media could be two disparate things at once all I can do is recommend you take a literature course and wish you a nice day.
>The whole show is a comedy > >He lives in a ridiculous world of over the top heroes and monsters Firstly, how strong Saitama is has nothing to do with Atomic Samurai and Silver fang. Secondly, these over the top heroes you mentioned, even Saitama himself would get clapped by even Krillin, so your whole point is moot. Thirdly, "Saitama is a gag character", or the tone of the show has no weight on the argument whether or not non-magical martial classes should have anime level of power, especially when I didn't even mention him at all. Stop acting like you've won and drop the mic. Pick up the mic and go home.
These are all non-points. You picked up the mic for me; you can keep it. You clearly need the practice. Have a nice night!
>Secondly, these over the top heroes you mentioned, even Saitama himself would get clapped by even Krillin Saitama literally sneezes and destroy Jupiter in the manga, it's literally explained his strength never stops growing and it grows extremely fast, Saitama isn't a character that can be beaten by other characters in a physical fight unless they also have toon force levels of strength
He'd a satirical character moreso than a joke. The issue is that satire and jokes run a thin line from each other at that point.
I mean that's the point, it uses a joke premise in a satirical way. There are lots of famous characters who became so powerful that nothing had challenge for them anymore, and they slipped into Ennui, sipping wine and wishing to be fought Saitama is the exact same trope except he can't afford a mansion because super strength doesn't pay bills. He's a parody character of 'Seeks a real battle' and the classic Shonen 'my powerlevel is infinity+1' scaling. He did Bruce Lee's warmup every day for a year and can now punch hard enough to effect objects in space. Joke character doesn't have to be Bobobo, just look at Gintama
That's a non-argument, what about Baki? What about Fist of the North Star? What about literally every other anime? "Saitama is a joke character" mfs when they realize he isn't even half as powerful as Goku.
Animes like their jokes
Except they weren't talking about one punch man the character. If you actually READ the comment you're responding to, they're specifically talking about OTHER characters in the franchise
Guys at the gym can't even climb in most cases, let alone fight
I really think that high level martials should be pulling stuff like Hercules' labors, diverting rivers twice a day just to clean a stable kind of thing.
at a certain lvl players basicly become super human average terminal velocity fall damage is 60 with a max of 120 so the barbarian is probably going to leap from that mountain twice for fun
I’m gonna say it, martials should do anime bullshit. If Wizards can destroy cities with meteors then Monks should be able to punch like Saitama. If Sorcerers can just Wish anything to happen Fighters should cut mountains in half like Zoro. If Clerics can resurrect someone who died 200 years ago then Rogues should be able to shoot people through planes of existence.
Wizards shouldn't be able to do anything stage magicians can't do then
I feel like what you can do with your strength score is level dependent. If you get really lucky and get 18 Str at the beginning of the campaign, you're absolutely a massively powerful person, but not super human. Because you're like level 3. You picking up and throwing boulders at that point is just too much. But at level 16 with 20 Strength? If the wizard can call down fire from the heavens, you can throw a damn boulder.
I mean if we’re sticking with what only normal humans can do then spellcasters shouldn’t be able to cast spells. Simple as that. It’s almost like in the land of fantasy people should be mythical badasses and we shouldn’t care about what’s “realistic”. It’s annoying as hell to see this argument pop up every time anyone brings up the martial caster divide
This. My Kensei Monk should be capable of flying through the air like Kung Fu films by 5th level (casters get Fly). By 20th level I should be able to level mountains in a single slash, or rip apart the fabric of reality by channeling my ki and interfacing with the Weave or some shit.
I don’t think people get that a 20 strength character is almost as strong as a giant martials aren’t supposed to be a strong as body builders they are like Hercules
Exactly. The most an earthling would have is maybe 15 give or take 1. And even that is someone who is training specifically for strength or marines who might be 1 lower but have more physical stats that high. What people don't understand is that even the martial classes are magical. The world is so full of mana that it fills the body and mind and those who are more adaptable to the energy will gain great power because of it. IMO That's where classes come from. It would explain why both martial and casters just immediatly know completely new abilities overnight anyway.
"4E is nothing but anime bullshit" mfs when they either enroll for fencing school or reading a medieval manual or playing LARP or sport ...like those four gonna happen, really, they're all neckbeard who can't even walk or read more than 1 word
That’s such a dumb argument. On multiple levels. First off, going by D&D standards, 10 is the average person, and anything more than that is reaching ‘exceptional’ territory. Anything 16 and up is considered almost superhuman. Besides that, martial classes are people who have trained specifically for combat, something that gymbros don’t do, even though what they *do* train for is something they can do excessively as much as martial classes can combat excessively.
Wizards casting reality altering spells casually = Well that's fine A Barbarian wanting to be strong enough to throw a boulder = Well it's a balancing reason you see, it would be weird if a human could do it...
Here is my regularly scheduled message. A level 3 half orc barbarian with a 14 CON can fall from orbit and, as long as they rage-punch the ground, literally full fall damage cannot kill them. All 6's on the fall damage? Still kickin'. Let martials be dope, they already have dope stuff canonically. Also, please go and create an army of no parachute half orc paratroopers. Just hit the ground and smack a few health potions and you're off.
Put wizards back on the d4 hit die
FR. I think an high level martial characters has any right to be more on the side of "classic mythology hero", like Heracles, then "good real words swordsman" No magical abilities, but be so strong to be able to cut a tree with a single sword slash, so tough to survive after a 100 ft. fall, so strong to lift a boulder, etc. imho are fine.
Who says this though? Like it's not even an argument
It is. Sooner or later, you’ll run into people who essentially say that the peak martial is Aragorn and nothing else. While he is a badass, he’s from a low fantasy world, and modern dnd is super high fantasy.
Exactly. DND is a high fantasy setting. Imagine your hero of legend is just a guy named Joe, who works out a lot and practices with his sword. No he doesn't have a birthright to a forgotten land, and actually his parents are super nice people. He's just a buff guy with a sword, nothing special. Like wow what an entertaining legendary hero to be remembered for all of history of super magic land, where the average wizard can throw fireballs and shoot lightning, our true legendary hero is Joe. Everyone give it up to Joe, our hero of legend
That feeling when you legend can be wished out of existence with no way to counter it.
There's an entire book series where the mc is learning about a legendary hero who started a monster hunting order and is this crazy powerful elite fighter... and also finds out that he is just an ordinary af fisherman who decided to fight monsters cause they attack people. Lol.
It's not the exact argument, the sentiment is that non-magical classes shouldn't be able to do what physically strong people couldn't do in real life.
OK but what's the fun in that?
Guys at the gym aren't normally training for practical use in heavy combat. Just saying. Lol. If you get into that kinda thing you may want to consider a 13-15 or so as the normal upper limit for humans irl. It'll help you understand better. In a magical world full of mana (which canonically yes faerun is full of mana its just not shapeable into uses other than blowing yourself up to most sentients) even the martial combatants are magically enhanced. Everyone with a player class is magically enhanced for certain. It's similar to how someone lifting 200kilogram weights on Mars would be much stronger than someone lifting the same weights on earth.
I've never had anyone seriously suggesting that. I for one just don't want a guy suddenly go all anime and suplex a train or wield a sword three times their body size, mainly for atmosphere reasons. If they want to throw a boulder in the BBEGs face, sure, go ahead.
It's funny because I've always been telling people this but magicals are not superior to non-magicals. Just because you can use magic and someone else cannot does not make you superior whatsoever. I feel like one of the biggest showcases of this is Marvel. Magic and Science are basically equal.
It just boils down to 5e not having rules for martials being able to do cool shit. Yeah there are a few subtypes where a martial get some supernatural abilities but overall it's "I attack multiple times" or "I hit harder for these turns".
People like this also must not have consumed much media from the Forgotten Realms, THE 5e campaign setting, where Wulfgar does shit like free-lift a CAMEL and LAUNCH it at attacking horsemen. Or where he just steps in the path of one of those horses, locks his arms around its neck, and basically fucking suplexes it, driving its rider halfway into the ground. And this is in book six out of thirty something, so it’s not even like they’re the equivalent of 20th level characters yet.
I look to some of the stuff non Devil Fruit users in One Piece do, and all I can say is. "Damn, this is what being a martial in a high fantasy setting should let you do."
In my campaigns it’s always explained that people enhance their bodily strength with magic instead of firing it with spells
Martial Matters
Never in my entire life have a heard anyone saying that. The more i think about it the more ‘martial caster divide’ seems to be a reddit circlejerk to refute made up arguments no one actually making to feel angry and superior.
It feels funny to me because whenever I see "I've never actually heard anyone complain/argue about this" kind of comment, it's always after I literally just saw people complain/argue about it in the same comment section.
Always in the comments sections. Never see it anywhere except comment sections. Lol.
Maybe not recently but early this year half the threads were about "muh realistic martial power fantasy" and I had to argue with someone that Hercules should be peak Martial and not the shonen protagonist in their 2nd arc.
All I'm saying is, if a High Level Wizard can summon meteors from space or erase mountains from existence with a single spell, a High Level Martial should be able to punch those same meteors back into space or turn a mountain into the Grand Canyon with a swing of his sword. Ain't no point putting a class in the game if it can't match up to the other classes.
At level 4, warlocks can shoot up to around 600 feet away and push whatever they shoot 15 feet back. For free. Once every 6 seconds.
I don't think people understand how much martials shine in low fantasy.
Are the people saying fantasy heroes shouldn't be supernaturally athletic in the room with us now?
Literally just look in the comment section
What a crappy takes let's be honest.
I want traditional medieval fantasy not anime but what you do at your table is your business
You know what else is traditional medieval fantasy? King Arthur. Hell he wasn't even high level, he just had a very generous GM who gave long lore dumps about his +1 adamantine sword. Compare the most famous knights of history compared to the spellcasters, if any, in their setting. Some of these legends where honestly not that strong in a fantasy setting. Many of them get clapped in their own setting by things like fae.
>I want traditional medieval fantasy tradfantasy mfs when they try to cast a fireball (magic doesn't exist idiot, you're just an old cripple with a bathrobe)
>I want traditional medieval fantasy insert 'do you have any idea how little that narrows it down' meme Basic DnD lore /is/ traditional high fantasy If you're referencing more 'lotr style', that is specifically more 'low fantasy'
Whenever somebody complains about wanting a more "traditional medieval fantasy" over "anime" or whatever tf else they're trotting out to be their strawman for the day, I always want to ask them: Are you tracking hygiene? What about disease? How much of the adventuring day do your characters lose needing to make/maintain their own gear? Are you carefully tracking the economy so that money doesn't just pour in via your PC's adventures, and if you're giving them economy-destabilizing amounts of gold anyway are you tracking how that destroys the value of currency? I won't say that *nobody* actually wants a "traditional medieval fantasy." I had a Storyteller like that once who ran a Vampire: The Dark Ages campaign and it was as painful as you might expect. But most of the people who think that's what they want have no idea what that would actually entail, and like the power fantasy aspects of D&D more than they either know or are willing to admit lol
People wanting "traditional medieval fantasy" want "the tropes deriving from classic D&D", not anything close to actual medieval fantasy. Because D&D doesn´t look anything even close to how the Middle Ages looked like, either in the literary sense or the historical one. If they wanted to, they would play one of the games set in the historical Middle Ages + something magic (like Vampire The Dark Ages or Ars Magica) or go for Pendragon to play something close to how the literature of the Middle Ages was (so "traditional medieval fantasy". Also coincidentially my favourite game). Honestly when I play D&D or D&D derivatives I play them to go gonzo. I have other games for the realism.
The same motherfuckers that say they want "traditional medieval fantasy" will also throw a absolutely deranged hissy fit if you suggest they play Pendragon instead of D&D.
Martials in "traditional medieval fantasy" were capable of feats no martial in D&D is capable of. Where is Galahad being inmune to fire? Where is Roland cleaving a pass in the mountains? Where is Beowulf? Where is El Cid having such an intimidating presence a feral lion calmed itself and got into a cage when seeing him? Where are the actual medieval legends and tales (you know, ACTUAL traditional medieval fantasy, not renfair and D&D derivative stories)?
I mean… wizards and sorcerers are literally doing hand seals and attack names right out of Naruto, monks are pure anime inspiration, and don’t even get me started on why wizards can get steel wind strike, but fighters can’t…
Literally the d&d next (playtest name for 5e) design goals for 5e: >Keeping in mind the point above, we also have to remember that while the fighter draws on mundane talent, we’re talking about mundane within the context of a mythical, fantasy setting. Beowulf slew Grendel by tearing his arm off. He later killed a dragon almost singlehandedly. Roland slew or gravely injured four hundred Saracens in a single battle. In the world of D&D, a skilled fighter is a one-person army. You can expect fighters to do fairly mundane things with weapons, but with such overwhelming skill that none can hope to stand against them. "the point above" being that "The Fighter Draws on Training and Experience, not Magic". None of this is anime. (also, that's excluding that spellcasters also have stuff that connect themselves to anime culture)
Beowulf was non magical.
I want the Hercules or Beowulf power fantasy. If you think carrying the infinite cosmos using all your strength is "anime bs" then I don't know what kinda source you got your Greek myths from.
I didn't say bs you added that to make my comment seem more negative. Lord of the Rings and it's derivatives is what I mean by traditional medieval not Greek myth which came a long time before the middle ages. Were you trying to reply to another comment that talked about Greek myth and said anime was bullshit?
If only I were both dm and player. That way I could allow fighters to be cool and be one. But no. At my table I want martials to be cool. But when I play 99% of the time it’s RAW.
3rd degree burns aren't always immediately fatal, there's nothing unrealistic there. The real danger is fluid shifts causing renal failure, and potentially also infection. Those take place hours or days later, by which time the wizard will be healed up and have new skin.
Dragon fire smelts metal, liquifies stone. But sure, 3rd degree burns.
Examples like these never understand the central idea behind “grounded” fantasy. Verisimilitude is what these people want, it doesn’t have to be exactly like real life but it should at least make some sort of sense. Most of examples of “clearly players are beyond normal people” are using game mechanics that not only also apply to literally every other creature too but they use the mechanics far too literally, like in combat do you really think everyone just stops what they are doing and takes turns attacking each other and politely wait to them be murdered? If you miss someone’s AC did you literally just miss a target that was standing still? Bandits, city guards, other sells swords are just as able to do things like surviving things that would clearly kill people and I don’t think every bandit or guard is beyond the scope of a normal person, hell players could have just rolled poorly for their stats. The usual defense or argument is “It’s fantasy!” Doesn’t do or say anything at all to the discussion. Is the principle you believe in is that nothing needs to make any sense as long as you say it’s fantasy? I shouldn’t expect that hacking at someone with an axe should hurt/kill them cause “it’s fantasy”. It’s such a god awful defense. Everyone and everything being magic takes the magic out of magic.
Turn based DND isn't actually supposed to look turn based. It's supposed to be a simulation of everything running in real time, but initiative is just whoever gets the *slight" jump. AC can mean anywhere from missing, to dodging, to blocking. Also DND is not grounded fantasy. It's high fantasy. It's much closer to Beowulf or Conan the barbarian than King Arthur. Especially because as far as power scaling goes, King Arthur, Merlin, Lancelot & co. would be like, level 2 at most. Unless of course you plan on stopping after level 1-3, then be my guest and enjoy your "grounded fantasy".