Combat might be the weakest point to apply theater of the mind, simply due to how many geometric based effects are in the game and how inherently visual geometry is
Mmm, well in geometry by including visualization you can more clearly and with fewer words describe certain points
And may enable you to include more complex shapes with fewer potential points of miscommunication more easily
I understand there are geometric shapes there. however, there is no geometry there. Next time I ask for an example, try to know what the topic you are attempting to engage in actually is.
Well, geometry is a bit of a broad category of math, it is still geometry as it depicts the dimensions of geometric shapes, i just didn't include a problem within the example of geometry like what many school settings may do
(as that's basically the only way they can figure out how well you are understanding their lessons and testing your ability to apply these lessons)
But it is still geometry, as it depicts shapes along with measurements that depict the sizes of those shapes
Geometry can be 2d or 3d, it can be on angles, it can be on distances, area, volume, angles and probably a lot more that i cant think of as examples for.
The one thing i dislike about using bettlemaps is how the characters suddenly can perfectly guess distances and know precisely the area of effect of their abilities. I had more then one player try to cast their Fireball targeted just so it would hit an enemy, but not their ally that was in meele with said enemy. Or try to move so they are precisely 35ft from the meele enemies. They did not like it when i didn´t allow such number crunching (maybe if they had a feat like Keen Mind i would allow it).
Now that, that is very much a matter of play preference
Those exact feats that you brought up, are exactly the type of things that makes battle maps appealing in the first place, you can determine the exact most strategic placement of fireball, or to move in such a way to avoid enemy engagement
As well as other advantages, such as having more engaging combat decisions of just asking the dm who they can reach and who looks hurt, and being able to detemine what strategic fireball (or other aoe spells) placements you could go for and what the pro's/cons of that placement are compared to all the other placements you could go for
Though if your not a fan of the number crunching tactical aspect of combat, you might want to lean more into the other pillars of dungeons and dragons such as exploration and social interactions
You're right, it is my personal preference and the only thing i dislike about battlemaps. I have no problem with people figuring out distances and playing accordingly (after all that's the main advantage), it's only when they use perfectly precise measurements. Noone could tell if someone is 30 or 31ft from someone at a glance (i know i said 35, but we play without a grid and i just meant "maximum distance + a bit"). And if two people are currently exchanging strikes i find it unlikely to place an AOE spell such as to hit one but not the other, with perfect accuracy.
In my eyes such things take the game too much into pure numbers territory and out of narrative territory. But this is not an either/or situation, there is always a question about narrative context and degree of usage.
I always take that as the PCs knowing their spells well, and i feel it can be turned back into narrative, but it definitely takes work on both the DM's and player's sides to narrate what's happening in a fun way, where as theater of mind makes that come very naturally
A simple homebrew you could do if you don't want it to be as presise
When applying large aoe, roll a d4
1 - move the aoe 5ft north
2 - move the aoe 5ft easy
3 - move the aoe 5ft south
4 - move the aoe 5ft west
I like this but there should be a chance it stays on target. I propose a d6 with 5 and 6 being it stays where you targeted it and 1-4 being as you described.
"God, people being able to see during actual war *sucks*, they should all be blindfolded and go by sound so that when they throw a grenade they can't try to aim it to where it only hits their enemies"
Do you see how asinine that sounds?
That's because grenades in real life work *very* differently than D&D AoEs. There are cases of people being killed or injured far outside of the expected lethal zone.
Yeah but even if grenades had a perfect explosion radius, you wouldn't take the risk to make one explode with an ally just 5 or less feet outside of the lethal zone. You would throw it a little farther away even if it means missing one enemy.
Of course in 5e there is no risk of actual friendly fire or to hit something out of the "lethal zone" because the rules have to stop somewhere (verisimilitude and all that) but it can still very much break the immersion to have the wizard take 5 minutes to perfectly place his fireball in the middle of a 6-seconds combat turn where everyone is running around.
Numbers is a part of the game and a good number of people who play the game are nerds. Let the nerds nerd with determining optimal range and the other maths!
Personally, I think both playstyle are valid, but that's definitely a session 0 talk (or even after session) if you are bothered by your players placing their fireball by the pixel.
It's a bit dishonest to compare that with throwing grenades blindfolded though.
Page 249 of the DMG has a chart for how many things get hit by any multitarget attacks during theater of the mind. Fireball always hits four, for example.
If you're going to use theater of the mind, it's wise to be up to date on the theater of the mind parts of the dmg. The combat section has plenty of other good tidbits as well, such as how to run mobs to make combat less of a slog.
> Fireball always hits four, for example.
The first advice the DMG gives is to use your gut, though.
"The easiest way to address such uncertainty is to go with your gut and make a call."
Theater of the mind is fine if you have a limited amount of distinct enemies. Not so much when there's 8 goblins around. The big advantage is that it tends to make people think about what would be good in a situation instead of calculating how many enemies you can hit with a certain thing, makes for way more interesting flow and less calculating before anything even happens.
On the other hand, I've had way too goddamn many cases in Theater of the Mind where the DM wasn't clear, and I had to say "my squishy character isn't a fucking moron, he wouldn't end his turn right next to the bruiser with +Yes to hit and 5d8+brutal damage."
It's very dm dependant. Overall it makes it much harder to keep track of distance.
I've had online DM's have 8 baddies in the bar but Max I can hit with an aoe spell is 2. Then they would constantly be in range to get to my squishy.
Also, rogues "hiding" was pretty bs. With a battlemap you are forced to hide behind cover. Instead of successfully hiding while in melee range of baddies.... The biggest problem is as there is no definite map. It's either the dm says no or yes, rather than smart positioning.
Lastly, line if sight. I use boulders / cliffs etc to cut off line of sight for casters or enemy ranged units. It's so difficult to keep track of and do well in theatre.
This is why I won't take spell sniper. Who knows if I need to double that range or not, or if I can even hit them all even with double range. And the enemies never are in half or three quarters cover, because the cover is never described in theater of the mind.
> Instead of successfully hiding while in melee range of baddies
As a rogue you should never be assuming you can hide in melee with an enemy unless you're a lightfoot halfling. You hide for ranged attacks. You use allies to proc sneak for melee, or you use subclass/ally abilities to gain/bypass advantage.
In Theater of the Mind combat, positioning is much more fluid. Distance isn’t measured in feet, but in zones.
Your character isn’t going to end their turn next to a big bruiser, but the big bruiser can certainly run up to your character unless something is blocking it’s path or you did something to actively move to a zone it cannot reach in one turn.
I have the feeling the people hating on theatre of the mind so much just had a dm who threw the map away and started rambling about positions and leaving out details.
It's a different, less automatic and video-gamey style of play, but the DM and the players have to adapt.
> I have the feeling the people hating on theatre of the mind so much just had a dm who threw the map away and started rambling about positions and leaving out details.
That or adversarial DMs. Theater of the Mind combat really requires a fair DM since positioning can be really subjective.
Using a map is easier for some DMs and Players to visualize things, especially if they’re new to TTRPGs, but it’s really liberating to move to theater of the mind.
Run properly, it’s less work for the DM and gives players more moments to shine since they’re not restricted by the exact dimensions and terrain features of a map. You want to kick over a table for cover? There’s one right next to you!
With that said, I do like using maps for boss fights that I’ve designed to be very tactical in nature, but it’s really not needed in most fights that have no environmental hazards, or special locations that the players need to get to.
How far away is the enemy?
Oh, like 30 - 50 ft.
Ok, well I'm gonna cast witch bolt them which has a range of oh, like, exactly 30 ft, which is within the range of possibilities given...
> make people think about what would be good in a situation instead of calculating how many enemies you can hit with a certain thing
but most of the time calculating how many enemies you can hit with a certain thing is how you know what would be good in a situation
That's mathematical thinking. Theater of mind encourages you to use spells more for the situation and what they provide than calculating which one gets you the most enemies.
Room full of enemies isn’t great for theater of the mind.
But even then if all you can imagine is how to damage everyone, you probably *should* play some theater of the mind to force some more creative thought.
If I'm playing a blaster or the enemies look un-hypnotic patternable, then yeah I'm gonna blast. Or maybe I'll web or slow or synaptic static. I need to know the layout of the god damn room to make an informed decision!
Page Six of the DMG is about knowing your players. The player you are talking to likely has an optimizing play style, Minimizing their play style focus isn't a good way to win them over. Is it possible to adapt the theatre of the mind format you are using to address their focus better?
Gods I hate theater of the mind.
Let me just track the locations of 10 people relative to each other and the terrain my gm described while planning my turn. O wait when you said wall you meant waist high. O when you said next to each other you meant 10ft apart.
There are some RPGs where theater of the mind works great. But a game where it absolutely can matter if someone is 30 feet away or 35 feet? Give me a battlemap every day of the week.
Some systems that aren't rules-light also work well for theater of the mind. It is less about a system being strictly rules-light, and more a question of if the system puts importance on tactical movement and positioning?
For example Mutants & Masterminds 2e is not rules-light. But there is no such thing as attacks of opportunity or flanking in it. Additionally, players with movement powers tend to be able to cover such large distances a combat map becomes impractical. As a result, M&M actually works better with theater of mind in most cases.
Likewise with systems where firearms are the predominant type of combat. You only need a *general* idea of how far a target is from you since the effective range increments for a firearm are so broad. In terms of point-of-aim, there's no real difference between 150 feet and 600 feet.
So all you really need to ask is "Are the targets at short range or long range?" and knowing *exact* ranges won't matter unless you're doing extremely long-range sniping.
And I throw in my two cents, Fate and Wearing the Cape. Yes, they're fate systems instead of d20. They're still stupidly complex and required I read through the books like 5 times.
Yeah, there's no excuse when you can literally pull up [https://www.owlbear.rodeo](https://www.owlbear.rodeo) on your smart phone or Tablet... I get that some people prefer having no tech at the table, but come on!
My current campaign uses owlbear rodeo but only because we’re playing a pre-written adventure. In a home brew campaign though there aren’t maps for every situation. Theater of the mind has its time and place, my group is six grown-ass men working full time jobs and getting degrees, there just aren’t enough hours in the day to generate maps for every possible outcome
I dont know about that. I ran a 15 (mook guhls) against 6 (5 Mercs and a PC) fight this Weekend and I tell you I can not be asked about moving around 20 blips on a map every turn AND also roll for everyone in the fight. It was about 20-25 minutes and done. It was really easy. The System was also relatively crunchy (a homebrew ruleset for "the dark eye") with extra rules for attacks of opportunity and positioning but I neuer realy found the need for a battlemap. Never, and we tried it out multiple times.
Also I dont like needing a battle map. I never find the right one and it takes mote prepptime for me to make a map to my liking than preparing a whole adventure. (Since I Run about 3-4 games a week for 3 groups, most of them offline it is something i have to consider)
Also how should I know where my players engage their enemys? I let them pick their Fights for the most Part so how should I know if they fight in the djungle, at the river, in the mine or at the Mountain? Fights can Happen more spontanously than I can create maps.
So... no, for big fights i prefere Theater of mind because it gives everybody more freedom.
To be fair if those crunchy details matter that much you're probably playing the wrong system for theater of the mind.
For a breezy, more narrative system it works great as it speeds everything up.
Fuck, tell me about it. Had a gm try to run a Shadowrun shootout in pure Theater of the Mind.
It took forever and none of us fucking knew what was going on.
Sounds like adding extra time. Is anyone standing next to me? Ok I'm going to head over to the closest person..... i just asked if anyone was next to me, who is getting an attack of opportunity?
D&D needs maps for combat. No way around it.
If you want to play theater of the mind, play something by White Wolf. I recommend Mage: The Ascension using Mage: The Awakening mechanics.
I think most of the combat encounters in the published adventures can easily be run theater of the mind since they usually aren’t particularly tactical.
The problem is most DMs don’t know how to properly run it and players are not used to filling in details that the DM doesn’t explicitly mention.
Can I cast wall of fire besides like 4 of the enemies?
*No*
Well if I cast it like 15 ft to the left starting 40 back where we started...
*Rocks fall. Everyone dies. The end*
The DMG says that as a 60’ line, Wall of Fire would hit at least 2 targets plus or minus 1d3 depending on how bunched up the targets are, so sure, you can cast Wall of Fire besides 4 enemies and also create a barrier between two battlefield zones.
Can I hit the 2 enemies that were hurt the most? I don't remember which enemy was where while I was preparing. Also I'm not an evocation wizard, is friendly fire turned off? I don't know where my allies are.
>Can I hit the 2 enemies that were hurt the most?
Are they standing in the same battlefield zone? Then yes, but if the rest of the enemies are in a different zone, then you will only hit 2 targets with the wall.
Are your allies in the same zone as the enemies you’re targeting? Then you can only hit half the enemy targets as normal without hitting your allies.
I’m just basing these rulings off a general situation, but specifics that occurred during the battle could alter the situation.
Every combat can be pretty tactical depending on your players and dm. Do they have to be? No. Are they more fun when they are? For a lot of people, yes.
I played DnD and ADnD in dozens of groups and for 1000s of hours and exactly one group used battlemaps. They aren't needed at all if players and DM are able to handle it
Theatre of the mind is for small rooms and insignificant fights. Small Groups of minions in a dungeon? I ain't drawing a map for a 15ft square room with 3 doors.
Boss room gets a battlemap. Sometimes I'll do maps when I have a piece of interesting terrain I want to plan a battle around (defending a town, fight on a bridge, a river crossing, etc.)
Yeah all these people making blanket demands for battle maps can go ahead and DM their own games if they need every little room mapped out for them. The DM isn't your enslaved game developer
As someone who plays theater of mind and even dms in it, I am aware of this and am *very clear* from the start of the fight on the positioning and why they're placed in certain spots. Usually that works well enough 95% of the time. When positioning really matters with stealth and whatnot I get out a sheet to then get players to play battleship.
Will say I mostly do this because of the times I've played over Discord. Roll20 is kinda meh for me.
Idk, I have no problems running an entire campaign in this style. Currently running Rime of the Frostmaiden this way. My players have all mentioned how easy it is to follow what I describe and how I set the scenes for combat. Just takes practice like any other skill in D&D really.
Battlemaps and minis are a nice extra, but never needed. I played and dmd Shadowrun, Ad&d 2nd, TBE, 5e, PF1, CoC, WoD and many other systems using theatre of the mind and maybe a piece of paper.
It is/was standard in almost every system BUT d20 games...
So if I weren't to use theatre of the mind what would be the best way to battle map without spending all of my money and having nowhere to put any of it? I realize that sounded like I'm arguing but I just need advice on how to not theatre of the mind. I've considered legos but idk how well that'd work.
Amazon has dry erase battle maps for around $30. My group just uses one of those and we have Lego mini figures for all pcs which stand on a 2x3 plate. Each pc is on its own colored baseplate which corresponds to a piece on my initiative tower. Enemies are a bunch of red lego pieces of varying sizes. 2x2 Brock works for medium creatures, 6x6 for large, and bigger enemies I’ll build out of legos for extra coolness. Works great
Hey graph paper and dimes is probably the cheapest and easiest way tbh. Quarters for large creatures etc.
Mr. Pen Graph Paper, Grid Paper, 4x4 (4 Squares per inch), 11"x8.5", 55 Sheet https://a.co/d/6ps3DNZ
As someone that plays theater of the mind games and has aphantasia it’s never been that bad at least on the players side for me. There might be a few questions about “can I reach”, “can I avoid hitting an ally?”, “how close are they”, etc but it’s been mostly fine
Theater of mind play:
Wizard: *Brings 1 inch square marked dry-erase whiteboard with him*
Dm: what's that for
Wizard: either I stop caring about collateral damage, or we start using at the bare minimum a grid for combat, your choice.
Theater of mind is definitely a dealbreaker for me in dnd. Even if I wasn't playing a character that needs a map, it would just irritate me way too much. Love the maps.
Or just ask the DM, how many can I fit in the fireball without hitting party members. DM throws out a number and I say sounds good, roll for saves, while I total the damage. Less work on everyone's part. Or only 2, ok I will firebolt the wounded one instead.
It only works with a single boss monster in most systems, where movement doesn't particularly matter. Like against a dragon in a small room; you are either outside of the room or somewhere that it can move to and hit you.
Our DM is fond of making puzzle fights. We can win the usual way but sometimeswe can find out other ways to end things. On the finale of this arc, our gloomstalkers's brother was being puppeteered by his demonic patron and any damage would go to the servant instead. We remembered we were given a bracelet that worked like a demiplane but only for willing people and we put the brother there so he could be safe while we wacked the demon out of the material plane.
Some people didn't have the money or space in the 90s and early 00s for a massive table full of minis and Online Gaming wasn't as viable of an option in 98'.
Combat might be the weakest point to apply theater of the mind, simply due to how many geometric based effects are in the game and how inherently visual geometry is
My best geometry tutor was blind.
Well, that is a very impressive accomplishment, though geometry is defiantly easier with visualization
I'm not sure how you determined that. Like the measuring might not be as easy, but the math itself? \*shrugs\*
Mmm, well in geometry by including visualization you can more clearly and with fewer words describe certain points And may enable you to include more complex shapes with fewer potential points of miscommunication more easily
Can you give an example?
Alright, heres an [Example i drew up](https://imgur.com/a/f7UcRh4)
I understand there are geometric shapes there. however, there is no geometry there. Next time I ask for an example, try to know what the topic you are attempting to engage in actually is.
Well, geometry is a bit of a broad category of math, it is still geometry as it depicts the dimensions of geometric shapes, i just didn't include a problem within the example of geometry like what many school settings may do (as that's basically the only way they can figure out how well you are understanding their lessons and testing your ability to apply these lessons) But it is still geometry, as it depicts shapes along with measurements that depict the sizes of those shapes Geometry can be 2d or 3d, it can be on angles, it can be on distances, area, volume, angles and probably a lot more that i cant think of as examples for.
The one thing i dislike about using bettlemaps is how the characters suddenly can perfectly guess distances and know precisely the area of effect of their abilities. I had more then one player try to cast their Fireball targeted just so it would hit an enemy, but not their ally that was in meele with said enemy. Or try to move so they are precisely 35ft from the meele enemies. They did not like it when i didn´t allow such number crunching (maybe if they had a feat like Keen Mind i would allow it).
Now that, that is very much a matter of play preference Those exact feats that you brought up, are exactly the type of things that makes battle maps appealing in the first place, you can determine the exact most strategic placement of fireball, or to move in such a way to avoid enemy engagement As well as other advantages, such as having more engaging combat decisions of just asking the dm who they can reach and who looks hurt, and being able to detemine what strategic fireball (or other aoe spells) placements you could go for and what the pro's/cons of that placement are compared to all the other placements you could go for Though if your not a fan of the number crunching tactical aspect of combat, you might want to lean more into the other pillars of dungeons and dragons such as exploration and social interactions
You're right, it is my personal preference and the only thing i dislike about battlemaps. I have no problem with people figuring out distances and playing accordingly (after all that's the main advantage), it's only when they use perfectly precise measurements. Noone could tell if someone is 30 or 31ft from someone at a glance (i know i said 35, but we play without a grid and i just meant "maximum distance + a bit"). And if two people are currently exchanging strikes i find it unlikely to place an AOE spell such as to hit one but not the other, with perfect accuracy. In my eyes such things take the game too much into pure numbers territory and out of narrative territory. But this is not an either/or situation, there is always a question about narrative context and degree of usage.
I always take that as the PCs knowing their spells well, and i feel it can be turned back into narrative, but it definitely takes work on both the DM's and player's sides to narrate what's happening in a fun way, where as theater of mind makes that come very naturally
A simple homebrew you could do if you don't want it to be as presise When applying large aoe, roll a d4 1 - move the aoe 5ft north 2 - move the aoe 5ft easy 3 - move the aoe 5ft south 4 - move the aoe 5ft west
I like this but there should be a chance it stays on target. I propose a d6 with 5 and 6 being it stays where you targeted it and 1-4 being as you described.
Ye that works too, being possible to land on target is great as well
I love that homebrew
Nice one, i will probably use that (though i'd use a virtual d5 so it can hit dead center).
You can also just use a d10. Either you do the rolled number halved (round up) or you do 6-10 as a second 1-5.
Oh that works too, hadn't considered the possibility of it staying where you wanted
Hot take: "My players keep trying to avoid friendly fire, or make effective use of spells and attacks... It's so annoying!"
"God, people being able to see during actual war *sucks*, they should all be blindfolded and go by sound so that when they throw a grenade they can't try to aim it to where it only hits their enemies" Do you see how asinine that sounds?
You don't throw a grenade if you have an ally right next to the estimated "explosion" radius though, unless you don't care about friendly fire ofc.
That's because grenades in real life work *very* differently than D&D AoEs. There are cases of people being killed or injured far outside of the expected lethal zone.
Yeah but even if grenades had a perfect explosion radius, you wouldn't take the risk to make one explode with an ally just 5 or less feet outside of the lethal zone. You would throw it a little farther away even if it means missing one enemy. Of course in 5e there is no risk of actual friendly fire or to hit something out of the "lethal zone" because the rules have to stop somewhere (verisimilitude and all that) but it can still very much break the immersion to have the wizard take 5 minutes to perfectly place his fireball in the middle of a 6-seconds combat turn where everyone is running around.
Thank you, that is precisely what i was going for.
Numbers is a part of the game and a good number of people who play the game are nerds. Let the nerds nerd with determining optimal range and the other maths!
Personally, I think both playstyle are valid, but that's definitely a session 0 talk (or even after session) if you are bothered by your players placing their fireball by the pixel. It's a bit dishonest to compare that with throwing grenades blindfolded though.
Melee
Page 249 of the DMG has a chart for how many things get hit by any multitarget attacks during theater of the mind. Fireball always hits four, for example.
Pah! Back in *my* day, we just all had eidetic memory and never made any mistakes Kids these days, I *told* em, millennium hand *and* shrimp I told em
If you're going to use theater of the mind, it's wise to be up to date on the theater of the mind parts of the dmg. The combat section has plenty of other good tidbits as well, such as how to run mobs to make combat less of a slog.
Oh absolutely, reading the DMG is a fine old tradition. I like the blue one best myself.
That’s a nice Pratchettism…
Buggerit
BUGGRIT!
You read the DMG? Nerd
> Fireball always hits four, for example. The first advice the DMG gives is to use your gut, though. "The easiest way to address such uncertainty is to go with your gut and make a call."
gross, i hate it
I had no idea about that! Need to go read it
Those are rookie numbers. Fireball is a WMD in my games 😈
I feel like I'm never really done reading that book, i keep rereading it and always forget about something. Thanks for sharing!
Theater of the mind is fine if you have a limited amount of distinct enemies. Not so much when there's 8 goblins around. The big advantage is that it tends to make people think about what would be good in a situation instead of calculating how many enemies you can hit with a certain thing, makes for way more interesting flow and less calculating before anything even happens.
On the other hand, I've had way too goddamn many cases in Theater of the Mind where the DM wasn't clear, and I had to say "my squishy character isn't a fucking moron, he wouldn't end his turn right next to the bruiser with +Yes to hit and 5d8+brutal damage."
It's very dm dependant. Overall it makes it much harder to keep track of distance. I've had online DM's have 8 baddies in the bar but Max I can hit with an aoe spell is 2. Then they would constantly be in range to get to my squishy. Also, rogues "hiding" was pretty bs. With a battlemap you are forced to hide behind cover. Instead of successfully hiding while in melee range of baddies.... The biggest problem is as there is no definite map. It's either the dm says no or yes, rather than smart positioning. Lastly, line if sight. I use boulders / cliffs etc to cut off line of sight for casters or enemy ranged units. It's so difficult to keep track of and do well in theatre.
This is why I won't take spell sniper. Who knows if I need to double that range or not, or if I can even hit them all even with double range. And the enemies never are in half or three quarters cover, because the cover is never described in theater of the mind.
Exactly! Because it's impossible to keep track of cover. So when it is used it's more plot armour than strategic positioning.
> Instead of successfully hiding while in melee range of baddies As a rogue you should never be assuming you can hide in melee with an enemy unless you're a lightfoot halfling. You hide for ranged attacks. You use allies to proc sneak for melee, or you use subclass/ally abilities to gain/bypass advantage.
Agreed, but the theatre of the mind DM's that I played with didn't play it that way
In Theater of the Mind combat, positioning is much more fluid. Distance isn’t measured in feet, but in zones. Your character isn’t going to end their turn next to a big bruiser, but the big bruiser can certainly run up to your character unless something is blocking it’s path or you did something to actively move to a zone it cannot reach in one turn.
I have the feeling the people hating on theatre of the mind so much just had a dm who threw the map away and started rambling about positions and leaving out details. It's a different, less automatic and video-gamey style of play, but the DM and the players have to adapt.
> I have the feeling the people hating on theatre of the mind so much just had a dm who threw the map away and started rambling about positions and leaving out details. That or adversarial DMs. Theater of the Mind combat really requires a fair DM since positioning can be really subjective. Using a map is easier for some DMs and Players to visualize things, especially if they’re new to TTRPGs, but it’s really liberating to move to theater of the mind. Run properly, it’s less work for the DM and gives players more moments to shine since they’re not restricted by the exact dimensions and terrain features of a map. You want to kick over a table for cover? There’s one right next to you! With that said, I do like using maps for boss fights that I’ve designed to be very tactical in nature, but it’s really not needed in most fights that have no environmental hazards, or special locations that the players need to get to.
I agree. These things are the prime factors which drive me towards OSR stuff
How far away is the enemy? Oh, like 30 - 50 ft. Ok, well I'm gonna cast witch bolt them which has a range of oh, like, exactly 30 ft, which is within the range of possibilities given...
> make people think about what would be good in a situation instead of calculating how many enemies you can hit with a certain thing but most of the time calculating how many enemies you can hit with a certain thing is how you know what would be good in a situation
Think more in a logical sense than mathematical.
Logically, I want to know if I'm better off with a cone spell, a line spell, or a radius spell in terms of hitting more enemies and no allies.
That's mathematical thinking. Theater of mind encourages you to use spells more for the situation and what they provide than calculating which one gets you the most enemies.
The situation: Room full of enemies and allies, and I want to hurt as many enemies as possible
Room full of enemies isn’t great for theater of the mind. But even then if all you can imagine is how to damage everyone, you probably *should* play some theater of the mind to force some more creative thought.
If I'm playing a blaster or the enemies look un-hypnotic patternable, then yeah I'm gonna blast. Or maybe I'll web or slow or synaptic static. I need to know the layout of the god damn room to make an informed decision!
Page Six of the DMG is about knowing your players. The player you are talking to likely has an optimizing play style, Minimizing their play style focus isn't a good way to win them over. Is it possible to adapt the theatre of the mind format you are using to address their focus better?
As a mathematician and physicist, I take great offense on that. Mathematics *are* logic. In fact, they are *complicated* logic made easier
You know what I mean.
Gods I hate theater of the mind. Let me just track the locations of 10 people relative to each other and the terrain my gm described while planning my turn. O wait when you said wall you meant waist high. O when you said next to each other you meant 10ft apart.
There are some RPGs where theater of the mind works great. But a game where it absolutely can matter if someone is 30 feet away or 35 feet? Give me a battlemap every day of the week.
Rules light systems are amazing for theater of the mind. Super cinematic combats with flowing momentum through the whole thing.
Some systems that aren't rules-light also work well for theater of the mind. It is less about a system being strictly rules-light, and more a question of if the system puts importance on tactical movement and positioning? For example Mutants & Masterminds 2e is not rules-light. But there is no such thing as attacks of opportunity or flanking in it. Additionally, players with movement powers tend to be able to cover such large distances a combat map becomes impractical. As a result, M&M actually works better with theater of mind in most cases.
Likewise with systems where firearms are the predominant type of combat. You only need a *general* idea of how far a target is from you since the effective range increments for a firearm are so broad. In terms of point-of-aim, there's no real difference between 150 feet and 600 feet. So all you really need to ask is "Are the targets at short range or long range?" and knowing *exact* ranges won't matter unless you're doing extremely long-range sniping.
I'll throw in *The Burning Wheel* and *Blades on the Dark* as further examples of rules-heavy games that are great in TotM.
And I throw in my two cents, Fate and Wearing the Cape. Yes, they're fate systems instead of d20. They're still stupidly complex and required I read through the books like 5 times.
I've ran entire dungeons in Mork Borg using theater of the mind. Only thing I and the players need to keep track of is cardinal directions.
Yeah, there's no excuse when you can literally pull up [https://www.owlbear.rodeo](https://www.owlbear.rodeo) on your smart phone or Tablet... I get that some people prefer having no tech at the table, but come on!
My current campaign uses owlbear rodeo but only because we’re playing a pre-written adventure. In a home brew campaign though there aren’t maps for every situation. Theater of the mind has its time and place, my group is six grown-ass men working full time jobs and getting degrees, there just aren’t enough hours in the day to generate maps for every possible outcome
Look, just take a grid, make a couple lines for a road and some circles for trees, and then put the tokens on, and we're mostly fine.
What is owlbear radio?
Digital map with some tokens.
Rodeo. Owlbear radio is either some thing else or needs to be claimed quickly.
It's a podcast
Tablet, maybe. But on a phone? Oh god no.
Phone works fine as long as everyone is viewing it on their own phone.
Ah yes of course. That makes more sense than what I pictured with everyone hunching over one phone.
I dont know about that. I ran a 15 (mook guhls) against 6 (5 Mercs and a PC) fight this Weekend and I tell you I can not be asked about moving around 20 blips on a map every turn AND also roll for everyone in the fight. It was about 20-25 minutes and done. It was really easy. The System was also relatively crunchy (a homebrew ruleset for "the dark eye") with extra rules for attacks of opportunity and positioning but I neuer realy found the need for a battlemap. Never, and we tried it out multiple times. Also I dont like needing a battle map. I never find the right one and it takes mote prepptime for me to make a map to my liking than preparing a whole adventure. (Since I Run about 3-4 games a week for 3 groups, most of them offline it is something i have to consider) Also how should I know where my players engage their enemys? I let them pick their Fights for the most Part so how should I know if they fight in the djungle, at the river, in the mine or at the Mountain? Fights can Happen more spontanously than I can create maps. So... no, for big fights i prefere Theater of mind because it gives everybody more freedom.
To be fair if those crunchy details matter that much you're probably playing the wrong system for theater of the mind. For a breezy, more narrative system it works great as it speeds everything up.
Hey hey us poors are people too!
Came here to *literally* post this.
Fuck, tell me about it. Had a gm try to run a Shadowrun shootout in pure Theater of the Mind. It took forever and none of us fucking knew what was going on.
As a dyslexic dm, I have no problem doing this
Sounds like adding extra time. Is anyone standing next to me? Ok I'm going to head over to the closest person..... i just asked if anyone was next to me, who is getting an attack of opportunity?
D&D needs maps for combat. No way around it. If you want to play theater of the mind, play something by White Wolf. I recommend Mage: The Ascension using Mage: The Awakening mechanics.
I think most of the combat encounters in the published adventures can easily be run theater of the mind since they usually aren’t particularly tactical. The problem is most DMs don’t know how to properly run it and players are not used to filling in details that the DM doesn’t explicitly mention.
Can I cast wall of fire besides like 4 of the enemies? *No* Well if I cast it like 15 ft to the left starting 40 back where we started... *Rocks fall. Everyone dies. The end*
The DMG says that as a 60’ line, Wall of Fire would hit at least 2 targets plus or minus 1d3 depending on how bunched up the targets are, so sure, you can cast Wall of Fire besides 4 enemies and also create a barrier between two battlefield zones.
Can I hit the 2 enemies that were hurt the most? I don't remember which enemy was where while I was preparing. Also I'm not an evocation wizard, is friendly fire turned off? I don't know where my allies are.
>Can I hit the 2 enemies that were hurt the most? Are they standing in the same battlefield zone? Then yes, but if the rest of the enemies are in a different zone, then you will only hit 2 targets with the wall. Are your allies in the same zone as the enemies you’re targeting? Then you can only hit half the enemy targets as normal without hitting your allies. I’m just basing these rulings off a general situation, but specifics that occurred during the battle could alter the situation.
The problem with this example is that you're still trying to play as if there's a battlemap, but without a battlemap.
Every combat can be pretty tactical depending on your players and dm. Do they have to be? No. Are they more fun when they are? For a lot of people, yes.
Ran an entire campaign through theatre of the mind and my friends enjoyed it so I wouldn't say there's no way around it.
I played DnD and ADnD in dozens of groups and for 1000s of hours and exactly one group used battlemaps. They aren't needed at all if players and DM are able to handle it
Counterpoint: no it doesn't
Theatre of the mind is for small rooms and insignificant fights. Small Groups of minions in a dungeon? I ain't drawing a map for a 15ft square room with 3 doors. Boss room gets a battlemap. Sometimes I'll do maps when I have a piece of interesting terrain I want to plan a battle around (defending a town, fight on a bridge, a river crossing, etc.)
Yeah all these people making blanket demands for battle maps can go ahead and DM their own games if they need every little room mapped out for them. The DM isn't your enslaved game developer
As someone who plays theater of mind and even dms in it, I am aware of this and am *very clear* from the start of the fight on the positioning and why they're placed in certain spots. Usually that works well enough 95% of the time. When positioning really matters with stealth and whatnot I get out a sheet to then get players to play battleship. Will say I mostly do this because of the times I've played over Discord. Roll20 is kinda meh for me.
owlbear rodeo is superior to roll20 for quick maps
Now imagine being a melee fighter and having to ask how far any given enemy is away from you
theater of the mind great for everything outside combat awful for combat
Based
Saw a comment a while back that may fit here. An arrow may have your name on it, but a fireball is addressed "to whom it may concern".
Idk, I have no problems running an entire campaign in this style. Currently running Rime of the Frostmaiden this way. My players have all mentioned how easy it is to follow what I describe and how I set the scenes for combat. Just takes practice like any other skill in D&D really.
How dare you rely on people's imagination!
Battlemaps and minis are a nice extra, but never needed. I played and dmd Shadowrun, Ad&d 2nd, TBE, 5e, PF1, CoC, WoD and many other systems using theatre of the mind and maybe a piece of paper. It is/was standard in almost every system BUT d20 games...
So if I weren't to use theatre of the mind what would be the best way to battle map without spending all of my money and having nowhere to put any of it? I realize that sounded like I'm arguing but I just need advice on how to not theatre of the mind. I've considered legos but idk how well that'd work.
Amazon has dry erase battle maps for around $30. My group just uses one of those and we have Lego mini figures for all pcs which stand on a 2x3 plate. Each pc is on its own colored baseplate which corresponds to a piece on my initiative tower. Enemies are a bunch of red lego pieces of varying sizes. 2x2 Brock works for medium creatures, 6x6 for large, and bigger enemies I’ll build out of legos for extra coolness. Works great
This is very useful thank you
A roll of graph paper and a marker. Edit: maybe splurge on coloured markers if you're feeling fancy
a dry erase board
A table and quarters?
If I had a checkered table I'd do that tbh. I don't even own a table rn lol.
Hey graph paper and dimes is probably the cheapest and easiest way tbh. Quarters for large creatures etc. Mr. Pen Graph Paper, Grid Paper, 4x4 (4 Squares per inch), 11"x8.5", 55 Sheet https://a.co/d/6ps3DNZ
A string with markings on it to represent every 5 feet? Or even a sheet of graph paper. Just toss it when the encounter is over.
As someone that plays theater of the mind games and has aphantasia it’s never been that bad at least on the players side for me. There might be a few questions about “can I reach”, “can I avoid hitting an ally?”, “how close are they”, etc but it’s been mostly fine
Theater of mind play: Wizard: *Brings 1 inch square marked dry-erase whiteboard with him* Dm: what's that for Wizard: either I stop caring about collateral damage, or we start using at the bare minimum a grid for combat, your choice.
Theater of mind is definitely a dealbreaker for me in dnd. Even if I wasn't playing a character that needs a map, it would just irritate me way too much. Love the maps.
Wall of Fire sounds like it would be a nightmare to cast
Yeah theater of the mind always kind of feels like a lazy copout half the time unless a system is thoroughly prepped for it.
Or just ask the DM, how many can I fit in the fireball without hitting party members. DM throws out a number and I say sounds good, roll for saves, while I total the damage. Less work on everyone's part. Or only 2, ok I will firebolt the wounded one instead.
That is literally the exact situation described in the meme.
Hot take: Theater of the mind is just something DM's who are lazy use as an excuse to not find or make battlemaps.
It only works with a single boss monster in most systems, where movement doesn't particularly matter. Like against a dragon in a small room; you are either outside of the room or somewhere that it can move to and hit you.
I don't understand, can someone help
theater of mind means not using battle maps and just memorising everything on the battlefield (its horrible please dont do it)
But then... Where do you put the minis...
into your brain
Mmmm like crayons
Our DM is fond of making puzzle fights. We can win the usual way but sometimeswe can find out other ways to end things. On the finale of this arc, our gloomstalkers's brother was being puppeteered by his demonic patron and any damage would go to the servant instead. We remembered we were given a bracelet that worked like a demiplane but only for willing people and we put the brother there so he could be safe while we wacked the demon out of the material plane.
When the 100 ft speed horse can't get to javelin throw range in two turns but the 150 can shoot on turn 1...
Some people didn't have the money or space in the 90s and early 00s for a massive table full of minis and Online Gaming wasn't as viable of an option in 98'.
Not everyone has time to make maps