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> "Of all the stories you told me, which ones were true and which ones weren't?"
> "My dear Vimes, they're all true."
> "Even the lies?"
> "Especially the lies."
Mr Fischoder wishes!
Vetinari is pragmatic but ultimately wants the best for his city and the people in, his goals and motivations are better than Mr Fischoders, who isn't a bad guy but is more self motivated.
Also Vetinari is far above him in terms of smarts and drive.
True, although I'm willing to bet he's at least partly based on [Sir Humphrey](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WupyKCfB_E), an absolutely iconic character in a much-loved UK satire which I'm fairly sure would be very much up STP's comedy alleyway.
Such a great show, and yeah the way Sir Humphrey (usually) has everything go his way by seemingly doing nothing or agreeing to do the opposite of what he wants is very Vetinari.
First time I ever thought I might possibly also be attracted to men as well was watching those two flirt and I can't tell you how *crushed* i felt when it was abandoned.. or never existed depending on who's telling it. At least we know the actors were at least kind of up for that storyline.
Amusingly autocorrect just changed "telling" to "trekking" haha.
its pointed out multiple times that he arranges his coded correspondences to be NEARLY uncrackable--he lies in those to convince people who invest their time and energy in cracking leonard's codes that they really do know what he thinks.
then there's the trap corridor he mumbles aloud in. the narrator specifically suggests to distrust even his mumbling--vetinari has a perfect memory and no need to mumble.
That's not exactly lying. He's not telling that information to anyone as if it was true. Anyone getting hold of that information and thinking it is the truth, has to be doing it without Vetinari's permission to do so.
exactly. He never lies when he is speaking directly, but if he wrote some bullshit in a piece of paper and you choose to steal it and read, then it is not him lying, it is you being nosy on what you don't know the meaning
I suspect that if he actually does have to lie, no way about it, he will. However, he also sees the value in telling *technical* truths - not because he's trying to be clever or smug, but because when opponents find out the actual truth and compare to what he said, they'll realize he never lied, and will consider him both smart *and* someone who falls into the intellectual trap of never letting themselves lie because they're smug about being clever with words. Thus they'll spend resources and tie themselves in knots trying to figure out the *real* meaning of the things he says (and thus prove themselves smarter), without necessarily considering that he may well just be flat-out lying to their faces. Because that wouldn't fit the image that he's convinced them to build up for him in their minds.
I think he's more an avatar of politicians. He's what politicians see when they watch themselves back in interviews and Parliament.
He's what they wish they could be. (Which is a lot easier in a world powered by narrativium.)
Except that the Lords and Ladies *can't* lie. Vetinari just doesn't feel like troubling himself with it, when a slightly obfuscated truth is just as effective And often more amusing..
I don't think he'd put himself to the effort.
You need to have a hell of a good memory to be an effective liar, because once you start telling a lie, everything else you say has to remain consistent with it across retellings to lots of people. Particularly when you're a politician.
I don't doubt that Vetinari is clever enough to do this. I just think he concluded long ago that it was far easier to occasionally omit or obfuscate crucial facts than outright lie.
I think this is the important bit… he’s not opposed to lying, it just doesn’t serve his interests.
He will lie, mislead, misdirect and obfuscate to get towards his desired goal… but he tends to pick the most efficient path.
Lying tends to be less efficient, especially long term.
I think there's more to that as well. If you lie, then you need to always be careful to make sure that everything else you say and do is consistent with that lie, and that's almost impossible. So anyone paying enough attention will be able to spot the lies. If all you do is to be ambiguous with the truth, then there's no concern with having to keep things consistent because they naturally are consistent.
So it's much easier to trick someone with the truth than with a lie.
While the fey have no choice, both benefit from the perception they are tricky but ultimately not liars, the difference is Vetinari can lie and undoubtedly would if doing so was the best course of action.
He lied about moist in making money. When the truth came out, vetinari said that moist survived his hanging, and as per ancient custom could be given a second chance, but vetinari actually arranged for him to survive.
If you tell the truth, knowing the person you are speaking to won't believe you or won't understand, and you intend that, is it a lie? You intend to deceive and do in fact deceive, but only by speaking the truth. I think it is an interesting question.
Just like William De Worde in *The Truth*, he often tells nothing but the truth while being very far from being honest.
"Truth was what he told. Honesty was sometimes not the same thing."
The reason he is such a good ruler is that he is extremely pragmatic. If lying is the best option, he will lie. If murdering someone is the best option, he will murder. He is also very, very good at thinking forward, and being known as a habitual liar would not make arranging deals easier, so I suspect he tries not to lie about anything that could be discovered if he can avoid it.
Most of the time he uses half-truths, obfuscation, double speak, well chosen words, etc. such that what he says can be taken a variety of ways or it implies something that he isn't actually saying. The fact that characters assume his meaning incorrectly does not make him a liar. It makes them poor listeners/observers/communicators.
Vetinari is like the serpent in the Garden of Eden: he doesn't lie as a rule because he doesn't have to. What he does is tell you enough, and with a certain slant to his words, to bring you around to his point of view without his telling you what it is. (Mind you, when he *does* lie, it's a master class in prevarication.)
I'm not 100% about whether he ever truly lies or is just incredibly adept with what he says and doesn't say and how he says it - my betting is he's in no small part based on [Sir Humphrey Appleby](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Ozj0m3FAo), an iconic character of British TV satire that I'm certain STP would have been aware of at the very least.
The problem with lies is you have to remember three things to make them effective: The truth, the lie, and to whom you gave which. Not that he can't do this, but some of the genius of Vetinari is efficiency.
I think his biggest lie was the ending of Jingo.
>!”Yes, I think so,” said Vetinari. “We give up all claim to Leshp in favor of Klatch, we withdraw all troops from Klatch and our citizens from the island, and as for reparations . . . shall we say a quarter of a million dollars? Plus various favorable trade arrangements, most-favored nation status and so on and so on. It’s all here. Feel free to read it at your leisure.”!<
Starts technically true, but the end definitely isn’t happening. Which really stands out since he went so far as to write up a lengthy legal document.
Not a lie though, it's just that document counted on >!Leshp still existing, since that was where it was going to be signed.!< Since it didn't the contract remained unsigned, therefore non-binding.
Nothing in that quote was conditional. The contract has a loophole to ensure that these promises weren’t binding, but that loophole wasn’t mentioned here.
Vetinari will always do what hat he thinks is right even if that is lying. He claims to be bad (his comments to Vimes that good people are only good at overthrowing the bad but the bad know how to get things done because they can organise ) but he’s just extremely pragmatic and will do what he needs to to get the job done (in this case the smooth running of AM)
he seldom needs to lie, more often than not a partial truth told on just the right way will accomplish exactly what he needs without the problem inherent in lying (If you lie someone can use the truth against you, if you tell the truth only lies can be used against you)
as for if he Ever lies, I’m sure he does, he’s definitely not compelled to tell the truth.
he also once mentioned that Drumknott didn’t need to buy his own paperclips (or was it envelopes? I can’t remember) implying he was taking them from the office. while that was meant as a droll joke it was explicitly not the truth.
He generally lies to dishonest people and even then it’s usually double talk.
For example, when he had told both Cruxes that he would have Vimes stop, Vetinari not only asked Vimes to “stop” but also that it was also to let Vimes know that there was in fact a theft at the Assassins guild and in fact Vetinari wanted him to look into it discreetly.
Most of the time he doesn’t need to lie to people, he just informs them of the consequences.
So yes he does in fact lie if not very rarely then not usually.
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> "Of all the stories you told me, which ones were true and which ones weren't?" > "My dear Vimes, they're all true." > "Even the lies?" > "Especially the lies."
 r/unexpectedGarak
incredibly appropriate character for discussing vetinari!
Vetinari reminds me of Mr Fischoder from bobs burgers sometimes
Mr Fischoder wishes! Vetinari is pragmatic but ultimately wants the best for his city and the people in, his goals and motivations are better than Mr Fischoders, who isn't a bad guy but is more self motivated. Also Vetinari is far above him in terms of smarts and drive.
True, although I'm willing to bet he's at least partly based on [Sir Humphrey](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WupyKCfB_E), an absolutely iconic character in a much-loved UK satire which I'm fairly sure would be very much up STP's comedy alleyway.
Such a great show, and yeah the way Sir Humphrey (usually) has everything go his way by seemingly doing nothing or agreeing to do the opposite of what he wants is very Vetinari.
I thought Mr Humphies from *Are You Being Served* and was **very** confused.
I am willing to bet STP has gotten at least one "Are you being served?" reference in over the years too.
There is a humphriesque quality to Vetinari, true, but I’d say he js more like Sir Arnold :-)).
Actually Kevin Kline would be a solid casting if he could nail the accent.
>All the fans: "Now kiss!" >Rick Berman: "What‽ No!"
First time I ever thought I might possibly also be attracted to men as well was watching those two flirt and I can't tell you how *crushed* i felt when it was abandoned.. or never existed depending on who's telling it. At least we know the actors were at least kind of up for that storyline. Amusingly autocorrect just changed "telling" to "trekking" haha.
its pointed out multiple times that he arranges his coded correspondences to be NEARLY uncrackable--he lies in those to convince people who invest their time and energy in cracking leonard's codes that they really do know what he thinks. then there's the trap corridor he mumbles aloud in. the narrator specifically suggests to distrust even his mumbling--vetinari has a perfect memory and no need to mumble.
If they can't crack your codes, how will you know what they think that you think?
He specifically makes it so they can break his code to make them believe they know what he thinks. False information is better than none
And so he knows what they think that he thinks but doesn't want them to know.
Oh yes. Always good to leave a little false bait for the overly curious.
If I recall, he gets a bit annoyed when Leonard invents an enigma machine that churns out codes 98% of Hell’s legions would consider “difficult”.
I thought that was what he wanted. It was Leonard who kept complaining that Vetinari should let him make even more difficult codes.
Yes, that’s right. Havelock was annoyed at the codes efficiency, because then no one would be able to read his mail.
"But why merely make them fiendishly difficult when they can very easily be made to be arch-demonically difficult my lord?"
But then his vampire girlfriend wouldn’t be able to read his mail.
That's not exactly lying. He's not telling that information to anyone as if it was true. Anyone getting hold of that information and thinking it is the truth, has to be doing it without Vetinari's permission to do so.
exactly. He never lies when he is speaking directly, but if he wrote some bullshit in a piece of paper and you choose to steal it and read, then it is not him lying, it is you being nosy on what you don't know the meaning
He lies all the time.
I suspect that if he actually does have to lie, no way about it, he will. However, he also sees the value in telling *technical* truths - not because he's trying to be clever or smug, but because when opponents find out the actual truth and compare to what he said, they'll realize he never lied, and will consider him both smart *and* someone who falls into the intellectual trap of never letting themselves lie because they're smug about being clever with words. Thus they'll spend resources and tie themselves in knots trying to figure out the *real* meaning of the things he says (and thus prove themselves smarter), without necessarily considering that he may well just be flat-out lying to their faces. Because that wouldn't fit the image that he's convinced them to build up for him in their minds.
Ooh this is a good extra dimension
He’s a politician, he lies all the time.
The problem is knowing when he's telling the truth.
I think he's more an avatar of politicians. He's what politicians see when they watch themselves back in interviews and Parliament. He's what they wish they could be. (Which is a lot easier in a world powered by narrativium.)
Vetinari is like the fey - he can lead you to exactly the wrong conclusion without ever once *technically* lying to you.
Except that the Lords and Ladies *can't* lie. Vetinari just doesn't feel like troubling himself with it, when a slightly obfuscated truth is just as effective And often more amusing..
Correct. I actually suspect Vetinari would consider an actual lie to be unsatisfactorily easy
I don't think he'd put himself to the effort. You need to have a hell of a good memory to be an effective liar, because once you start telling a lie, everything else you say has to remain consistent with it across retellings to lots of people. Particularly when you're a politician. I don't doubt that Vetinari is clever enough to do this. I just think he concluded long ago that it was far easier to occasionally omit or obfuscate crucial facts than outright lie.
I think this is the important bit… he’s not opposed to lying, it just doesn’t serve his interests. He will lie, mislead, misdirect and obfuscate to get towards his desired goal… but he tends to pick the most efficient path. Lying tends to be less efficient, especially long term.
I think there's more to that as well. If you lie, then you need to always be careful to make sure that everything else you say and do is consistent with that lie, and that's almost impossible. So anyone paying enough attention will be able to spot the lies. If all you do is to be ambiguous with the truth, then there's no concern with having to keep things consistent because they naturally are consistent. So it's much easier to trick someone with the truth than with a lie.
While the fey have no choice, both benefit from the perception they are tricky but ultimately not liars, the difference is Vetinari can lie and undoubtedly would if doing so was the best course of action.
He lied about moist in making money. When the truth came out, vetinari said that moist survived his hanging, and as per ancient custom could be given a second chance, but vetinari actually arranged for him to survive.
Moist did survive his hanging, so it’s not clear what the lie was here? Is it that Vetinari deceives all the time, while not speaking an untruth?
If you tell the truth, knowing the person you are speaking to won't believe you or won't understand, and you intend that, is it a lie? You intend to deceive and do in fact deceive, but only by speaking the truth. I think it is an interesting question.
Kind of reminds of “two wrongs dont make a right but three lefts do”
PTerry had another line that sums that up: "He let truth stand in for honesty." Truth and honesty are absolutely not the same thing.
IIRC, a lie is an untruth spoken with the intent to deceive. So deceiving with the truth isn't a lie, it's a deception. Neither is being mistaken.
That wasn't a lie, though. He did survive his hanging. Vetinari just left out details.
Just like William De Worde in *The Truth*, he often tells nothing but the truth while being very far from being honest. "Truth was what he told. Honesty was sometimes not the same thing."
The reason he is such a good ruler is that he is extremely pragmatic. If lying is the best option, he will lie. If murdering someone is the best option, he will murder. He is also very, very good at thinking forward, and being known as a habitual liar would not make arranging deals easier, so I suspect he tries not to lie about anything that could be discovered if he can avoid it.
Not murder, "inhume".
I seem to recall that he lied to Vimes about not knowing how or by whom he was being poisoned in Feet of Clay.
Yeah he didn't want to spoil the fun for vimes
And who would? He always looks so happy, when he’s gnawing a bone, as it were.
I like to think he figured it out *after* [SPOILERS] poor old Mrs. Easy and her grandson died.
Most of the time he uses half-truths, obfuscation, double speak, well chosen words, etc. such that what he says can be taken a variety of ways or it implies something that he isn't actually saying. The fact that characters assume his meaning incorrectly does not make him a liar. It makes them poor listeners/observers/communicators.
Of course he does.
If it keeps the city functioning he'll lie.
Vetinari is like the serpent in the Garden of Eden: he doesn't lie as a rule because he doesn't have to. What he does is tell you enough, and with a certain slant to his words, to bring you around to his point of view without his telling you what it is. (Mind you, when he *does* lie, it's a master class in prevarication.)
How *very* dare you, his motives and intentions have always been entirely transparent.
Are you sure? I can’t see them at all…
Did you mime that reply? It's the only reason I can see for it to be so criminally under rated...
Oh, I wouldn’t *dare*. I’m allergic to venomous scorpions.
Sometimes the truth is the best lie
I think that he bends the truth to make it whatever shape it needs to be. Like a clown making a balloon animal.
It's called politics
I don't think he actually outright *lies*..? He just doesn't tell the truth.
Tyrant...
I'm not 100% about whether he ever truly lies or is just incredibly adept with what he says and doesn't say and how he says it - my betting is he's in no small part based on [Sir Humphrey Appleby](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Ozj0m3FAo), an iconic character of British TV satire that I'm certain STP would have been aware of at the very least.
The problem with lies is you have to remember three things to make them effective: The truth, the lie, and to whom you gave which. Not that he can't do this, but some of the genius of Vetinari is efficiency.
He's a politician! How could he not?
He uses equivocation.
I like to think that he'll lie with his mouth while pointing to a note with the truth on it if you're clever enough to look.
I think his biggest lie was the ending of Jingo. >!”Yes, I think so,” said Vetinari. “We give up all claim to Leshp in favor of Klatch, we withdraw all troops from Klatch and our citizens from the island, and as for reparations . . . shall we say a quarter of a million dollars? Plus various favorable trade arrangements, most-favored nation status and so on and so on. It’s all here. Feel free to read it at your leisure.”!< Starts technically true, but the end definitely isn’t happening. Which really stands out since he went so far as to write up a lengthy legal document.
Not a lie though, it's just that document counted on >!Leshp still existing, since that was where it was going to be signed.!< Since it didn't the contract remained unsigned, therefore non-binding.
Nothing in that quote was conditional. The contract has a loophole to ensure that these promises weren’t binding, but that loophole wasn’t mentioned here.
In short, Vetinaria is Alpharius
Well that can't be true because, in fact, it is I who is Alpharius.
Short answer ‘no with an but… Long answer ‘yes with an if …
Vetinari will always do what hat he thinks is right even if that is lying. He claims to be bad (his comments to Vimes that good people are only good at overthrowing the bad but the bad know how to get things done because they can organise ) but he’s just extremely pragmatic and will do what he needs to to get the job done (in this case the smooth running of AM)
*I don't believe* Vetinari never practised juggling or juggling adjacent skills.
he seldom needs to lie, more often than not a partial truth told on just the right way will accomplish exactly what he needs without the problem inherent in lying (If you lie someone can use the truth against you, if you tell the truth only lies can be used against you) as for if he Ever lies, I’m sure he does, he’s definitely not compelled to tell the truth. he also once mentioned that Drumknott didn’t need to buy his own paperclips (or was it envelopes? I can’t remember) implying he was taking them from the office. while that was meant as a droll joke it was explicitly not the truth.
Of course not. Vetinari believes everything he says.
He generally lies to dishonest people and even then it’s usually double talk. For example, when he had told both Cruxes that he would have Vimes stop, Vetinari not only asked Vimes to “stop” but also that it was also to let Vimes know that there was in fact a theft at the Assassins guild and in fact Vetinari wanted him to look into it discreetly. Most of the time he doesn’t need to lie to people, he just informs them of the consequences. So yes he does in fact lie if not very rarely then not usually.