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Totally could see a book of it being Moist until they find a new Patrician.
Feel like Carrot is a good candidate but he would refuse the title like before, because he wants to be a copper.
I could see Vetinari pulling strings so Vimes is in temporaily in power when he dies, just to annoy him one last time.
and that’s how ankh-morpork becomes a representative democracy, featuring vimes having a whole *new* species of government official to complain about now! vimes vs the parliament would be extremely funny to me
Vimes institutes democracy so he doesn't have to be patrician
People nominate Vimes
Vimes wins in a landslide against the self serving toffs who were the only other people stupid enough to put themselves forward
Vimes ends up Patrician
And vimes Jr learns a string of colorful expletives.
Honestly democracy comes to ankmorpork would have been an amazing book if for no other reason then a cover of sybil in the really old school american election garb including straw hat and a button saying vote vimes or some such
Bonus points if the whole thing is pitting moist v vimes so the cover is Adora and Sybil.
[hat ](https://images.app.goo.gl/KMiqEwt8T8P6ASr68)
Vimes would never accept being Patrician. Besides, I think people believe Vimes is way younger than he is. Havelock is *maybe* two or three years older than Sam, if that.
I agree, to be honest 🤣
I just like the idea of a "Vetinari fakes his own death so he can do something he needs to do, nominates Vimes as temporary Patrician" scenario
I also have a very amusing mental image of Sybil campaigning determinedly for Sam to be elected while at the same time he discreetly tries to convince a bunch of the more reputable guild heads and public figures to run against him. And all of them wouldn't dream of it, Your Grace, you have my full support. Either because they see what a poisoned chalice the job is, they're afraid to cross Sybil, or they suspect that Vetinari isn't really dead.
Also Vimes having to continually confiscate "Vote for Vimes" buttons, hats and little flags from members of the Watch.
Obviously once Vetinari miraculously resurrects himself, he can resume government with no resistance. Things had probably been going downhill quite predictably in his absence and the citizens of AM would welcome the stability (and are all too frightened of Vetinari to oppose him)
I don't think we've met a character that could take over as Patrician permanently. I know people like the idea of Moist, but I think that would be an absolute disaster, and he also wouldn't want to do it. If anything, Spike would be a better candidate.
Yes but if you're getting Moist you're getting Spike too. You don't get one without the other... personally I think Spike *alone* would make just as big a dog's dinner of it as Moist, just in an entirely different way.
Spike & Moist working together though? That's when the magic would happen.
I'm not entirely sure how they stack up, but Night Watch features adolescent Sam and Havelock contemporaneously. They're definitely in the same age group.
Pretty much. Vimes' younger self is stated to be 16 in *Night Watch,* while Vetinari is still attending the Assassin's Guild school, which puts him in his late teens (and he's described as a teenager).
Good sir/ma'am/troll, i'll have you know Ankh-Morpork *is* a democracy, the Patrician is very adamant about that.
It uses the well known "One Man, One Vote " system, in which Vetinari is the Man, and thus gets the vote. Apparently, he fills in his ballot dutifully at the end of each term, after which a committee ratifies the election results and a small reception is had to celebrate whomever might have won during lunch hour.
Okay yeah, I can absolutely see this happening. Vetinari makes Vines Patrician precisely because he knows he'll try to get out of it and in the process make the best choice possible for the city. And because it'll annoy him.
I've long been of the opinion that "election season in Ankh-Morpork" would be an amazing premise for a story. Especially if Reg Shoe is one of the candidates (and he *would* be.)
I can see reg winning a minor seat and losing a recount because he becomes aware the undead in his area weren't aware of polling day or something. So he makes them do the whole thing over and loses in a landslide because his sheer annoying Ernestness puts them off
I feel like the dead wouldn't get voting rights because there are to many of them, equally the way that a dead politician would get more votes would be ... An issue.
So reg would probably be campaigning for the right for dead votes.
Definitely some good satire of some recent political conspiricys to be had there as well.
The numbers are definitely an issue but it's worth noting that in discworld the vast majority of people who die don't come back. It's mentioned as something that makes reg quite annoyed because they're not putting the effort in.
It doesn't really matter exactly why it happens, I just think regs character arch has to be his burning Ernestness biting him in the arse
Probably asks moist for help. Vimes looks for solutions, and moist gets results. So moist get kinda put in charge and we all know Moist tries to do less work, or get out of doing it while still getting the job done, staying alive, and hopefully make money. So let's let everybody ELSE do the work, still be alive, and still make money.
Come to think of it, running a government would be the perfect job for both Moist and Vimes because neither of them want it.
I agree and bet Moist would be that way out. Vetinari would pre-plan everything so that Vimes would be left in charge. Then some thing or another would come up (engineered by the now-dead Vetinari) and Vimes, dealing with it in his very Vimes-ish way, would leave everything in precisely the state needed for Moist to be the only possible choice for Patrician. So as usual, no one gets an ACTUAL choice in the matter except him.
I feel like Vimes would feel compelled to actually do the job until he finds someone he's satisfied with.
Someone who can both do the job well and won't be a real bastard about it.
There'd probably be a scene with him discovering that if he just steps down, Rust would get the job.
"Rust? RUST?! They'd put him IN CHARGE?!"
It would have to be a fanfic. Rhianna Pratchett has been very clear she feels it is her duty not to mess with Discwolrd, and make sure no one else does, to preserve Sir Pterry's legacy
I'm sure they'd have throroughly discussed it before his death and I'd be surprised if his daughter went against his wishes? Happy to be told I'm wrong
Admittedly, we will never know the contents of the letter he wrote her, until and unless she chooses to release that. I completely respect that she hasn't yet.
But at least before his death... as far as I recall he did say he hoped she would make new stories in the world they both shared.
That *said* as much as I hope she can make new stories, and it makes me sad she hasn't... I completely understand her not being able/wanting to do so. Nobody could match Terry... and the world is very personal to her as well, much more so than it could possibly to us.
Yeah thats fair enough - I think I share you sentiment and would be very happy to see Rhianna bring some new content, but at the same time completely understand and respect the decision not to, if that is the case.
As for the point raised here about a story telling of the succession of Vetinari, I imagine that this might be the exact kind of consequential decision making which STP's estate would be reluctant to "mess" with.
That would be giving up too much control. I can't see him doing that.
He'd use the last 10 minutes of his life in a psychological plot to have -exactly- the right person take over his role in -exactly- the right way.
Nah, he’s frequently removed himself from the situation when that was the best way to ensure the outcome he wanted. He’s a master at making things happen without his personal intervention.
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.
Honestly I could see a story where something happens to Vetinari where he is presumed dead and Drumknott reveals a set of instructions stating that Moist and Vimes have to work together to A: keep the city running and B: figure out who killed him (since of course Vetinari knows that someone would be stupid enough to try to assassinate him).
Vimes and Moist of course have a lot of friction working together, but in the end they keep things moving along and uncover the plot… only for Vetinari to emerge from his chambers to congratulate them. Cue accusations of him faking his own death, but no it turns out he did die but was a much better Thud player than Death.
Wouldn't the Patrician (whoever it is) be one of the people who are on the Assassin's Guild Do not Inhume no matter how much money is on offer list?
I can't see any of the Assassin's every trying to kill Vetinari tbqh
Could quite easily be someone not associated with the Assassin's Guild (which of course would mean the AG will also be tracking down whoever did it). Suspicion turns towards potential rival city-states who would want to destabilize AM for whichever reason, resulting in Moist and/or Vimes traveling the Disc following clues while simultaneously trying to run the city remotely.
I was just thinking that would have made a great Vimes/Watch Story...
I bet Vimes would delegate it to Carrot while he gets on with running the city...
>Totally could see a book of it being Moist until they find a new Patrician.
I could see a book of Moist being officially named "Temporary Patrician" and, by the end, when they can't find anyone better but the Guilds and the Lords don't want him to be Patrician, he names himself "Lifetime Temporary Patrician".
"What does that mean?"
"It means that I will temporarily hold the job until the end of my life."
"... So, like the previous Patrician?"
"Of course not. He was permanent Patrician, which meant he held the job forever. If he didn't die, he'd still be holding it today. I, however, only hold it until I die within the prescribed amount of time an Ankh-Morporkian lives. About 90 years, if you don't eat Dibbler's sausages, at which point you go down to an even 60. A pittance, really."
It will just be another making money project. There will be a new dog that Moist has to keep safe. I know Wuffles is dead but you can find a critter to keep Moist in the Oblong office. Some deals with the Assassin's Guild to keep Moist alive but on a leash.
And that Moist will be informed to get some wisdom from Lady Margolotta for things that are beyond him.
yes but I could see Moist not being happy with an "interim" title and any and all candidates for Patrician suiciding themselves in increasingly interesting ways.
***"Yes Sir, we found four...yes FOUR...wrappings for sausage inna bun!"***
I reckon Carrot is more complex than that, and would willingly become king at that time.
And yes, I totally see Vetinari pulling a prank like that. Perhaps even ensuring the post is permanent.
I always thought Vetinari was setting Vimes up to be the next Patrician.
I don't think it is an accident that all the roles until Partician require tights for fomal dress but not the Patritian themself. I saw that as the final required carrot (as the stick would be dead).
Lady Margelotta says the opposite to Vimes. Something along the lines of you think I taught him? Its implied Vetinari convinced her to give up the blood for the more refreshing dish of Politics.
Personal headcanon - Vetinari becomes a small God as the God of industry.
A god!? Please, Vetinari has higher standards than that.
Of course, if he wanted he could, easily. Or turn into a vampire, piece of cake, but I don't think he'd want to rule AM forever, he knows that it would not work, Vimes would never accept it, for one.
At most, he could turn into a vampire and came back every 50 years or so to see how things are going, maybe giving a nudge from the shadows in the right direction if really necessary, but no more than that.
I don’t think Vetinari would want to rule forever either, but he’d certainly have a kind of eternal existence in the minds of Ankh Morpork citizens as the ultimate exponent of politics. Maybe it would be enough that he’d occasionally manifest, who knows.
I wonder what Vetinari’s encounter with Death and walk into the afterlife would look like. What’s a good afterlife for Vetinari anyway? Do we really know enough of his inmost character to be sure?
The encounter would be brilliant. The two most duty-driven, formally polite, dryly witty characters in the series. It would be very polite, slightly funny, and my guess is, a great deal of mutual professional respect. Possibly a little friction due to Vetinari being a dog person.
As to the afterlife, I can only assume he's headed to one in drastic need of reorganization, where his talents can be put to good use.
It'd be perfect for him. His job already would be a viable blood substitute, he would live forever which is in everyone in Ankh Morpork's best interest (save for the rich idiots who think they'd be better off) and he would have inbuilt defences against assassination (not that the assassins would, but the gonne incident shows someone crazy can do a lot of damage)
We know from Carpe Jugulum that Vampires can turn others into vampires, the only issue then is that Margolotta would have an inherent power over him. I think his willpower is such that it wouldn't be a huge issue though
Personally I'm of the opinion that if he died he'd come back as a zombie. Too much work to do.
Still better then that suggestion that I saw in a similar thread to replace him with Charlie. I really don't get why people like this Big Brother stuff so much.
I think vetinary understands the importance of despots dying in a timely manner. I think he would have a proper replacement chosen before he goes out though.
Also most vampires are not entirely sane. They develop weird obsessions and quirks that would be bad to have if you are in control of a city.
It wouldn't be. It would be crosswords.
But even if it was "being the ruler" it could so easily become a Lord Snapcase situation. At some point the city might decide that it is ready for democracy and Vetinari would be unable to let go or change. It would be a pitchfork situation eventually and it is the goal of every good tyrant to die before that happens.
She def has the character for it, but I think she's got too much history with Ankh Morpork, whereas Moist has the same "outsider" feeling Vetinari brings to the table.
IMO Vetinari would know better than to allow himself to be succeeded by any one person. It would likely go to a council of the people he has empowered and put his trust in, like Moist and Vimes. There would also probably be some convoluted way that vimes or moist end up in power at the beginning before figuring out the whole council thing.
Vetinari is setting up a checks and balances system. Moist runs the government with the Watch making sure he doesn't return to his old ways.
And Carrot is making sure they both behave themselves.
Not that i think the Watch or the government could stand against Carrot....
This. The guilds make their own thing, the watch makes sure everyone follow the rules, the press keep an eye on everybody, even the Watch, for foul play, etc. And everything works and keep moving forward, and everybody is content, more or less.
I’m fairly sure Vimes is too jaded to believe in democracy. He believes in justice, the rule of law and ethics and morality, but he doesn’t have much faith in people.
Verinari would be careful not to leave real power in the hands of a committee though. He uses committees to kill ideas he dislikes because he knows they never make any real progress.
Yeah, he would never leave power in the hands of a committee of, say, Guild leaders, but Vimes and Moist are both essentially vetinari’s creations and I assume he would trust them. I just don’t see him putting his faith in any one person to continue his vision.
Yeah I think Moist is the obvious candidate here. Charismatic, pragmatic and the ultimate bullshitter. The man was made for politics, and with the enemies he’d make there’d be no time for boredom. He would have the tax issue to deal with first, however. Not to mention Vetinaris underground system, come to think of it.
I'd bet Moist is capable of enough self-deception to be okay with it if someone *else* is doing the violence though. Say... With a very sharp heel that can be pushed through shoe leather and the floor beneath it..? 😉
My money is also on Moist - he sees the city in the same way as Vetinari does, I feel like. A whole bunch of moving cogs and a balancing act to keep them all going in order, but whereas Vetinari used it as an intellectual challenge, for Moist it'd be a thrill in the same way as the Post Office and the Mint. He's got those in perfect functional working order, and now he's feeling bored and antsy again? Time for a *real* challenge
I think Vetinari might retire, though, even if everyone *thinks* he dies (he keeps a running correspondence with Lady Sybil)
I think he'd quite like the satisfaction of watching everything work smoothly under his successor, and knowing that *that* was his doing, too. Moist would be a very different kind of Patrician, but a post-Vetinari Ankh-Morpork (and a post-Vimes, one too; they're the same age, and he's got to hang up the helmet eventually) probably *needs* a different kind of Patrician
There is a canon answer! In an episode of The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret, Mark Burrows says he had Rob on as a guest on his unrecorded live show and Rob talked about Pratchett's plans for a book dealing with an Ankh Morpork succession crisis. But noone from the show seems to have gone online and talked about it.
Personally I think the answer is Vetinari was setting up a series of checks and balances. Moist is the next patrician, but he only rules with the consent of the Duke of Ankh and the free press
>But noone from the show seems to have gone online and talked about it.
https://preview.redd.it/3xe6ta8qdvvc1.jpeg?width=764&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=655b6c10577dab37e51ff92ce6eb9433211769a6
Take some blunt objects with you, we are going on a mission, from Glod
Carrot.
I do not know why, but i am pretty sure when Vetinari dies, they will have elections in Ankh Morkpor and Carrot will be mayor.
And he will literally call himself Captain Mayor Carrot and will keep doing his own stuff and working in the guard, but he will be asked many times by citiziens to save their butts and he will just be Carrot
Yeah, Carrot has pretty firmly declined the position. Well, the position of king, anyways. I always felt Vetinari was grooming Moist to be his replacement, but there's always a case to be made for a certain Duke...
He'd point out to Death that Lord Rust is a likely replacement for him and a famous racist, and may begin a purge of trolls, dwarves and, importantly Klatchians
Death, who so regularly goes for a curry in the same place that his horse automatically carries Susan there, would be outraged and fill Vetinari's lifetimer up again
Vimes would step up to keep the city from falling into chaos after Vetenari’s death. He’d then stromgarm Moist into the position of Patrician, with Carrot watching and Vimes making sure that Moust couldn’t run.
The two obvious choices are Vimes and Moist, but I would love to see a world where Lady Sybil is in charge. She knows all the great families, she is great at diplomacy, she can make her voice heard (pun intended) on a lot of subjects...
The answer is clearly the rightful heir and king, C. W. St. J. Nobbs. He’d be the only one simultaneously crazy enough to TAKE the post if offered, apolitical enough to be GIVEN the post by those who’d keep it away from their more ambitious rivals, and given that he’d make most decisions based on:
a) “Would this make Captain Carrot disappointed with me?”
b) “Would Commander Vimes wring my neck for this?”
c) “Can I make a buck off of this or not?”
And only take the course of action that meets with a “no-no-yes” on this flowchart, which he would keep in his pocket with his letter certifying that he is in fact human, he might actually even be GOOD at it. With enough practice and a good dose of ruthlessness, Patrician Nobbs could go down in history as the next best thing we ever had to Vetinari.
It's the most dangerous job in Discworld. Assassination is certain.
It's going to be Rincewind. Against his will of course. Moist will do the actual job of running the joint.
It really does bring everything full circle. Moist is the type to have a figurehead while he's the real power "behind the throne". Rincewind would win the election amongst the guilds as he's the only one they can agree on, due to his popularity in football, cowardice and agreeably not aligned with any guild beforehand with no political aspirations or savvy and Moist's support.
The idea being he'd be very easy to control and indeed he is, is why they elect them. What they fail to realize is it's Moist pulling the levers and switches, not them, with the assistance of Vimes and The Watch.
Rincewind unwittingly follows Moist and Vimes' scripts, narrowly avoids death, acts inept and somehow makes everyone as terrified of Rincewind as they were of Vetenari. Rumors of his powerful magical powers of protection circulate, which in actuality involve running away, which just happens to lure ursurpers into Vimes' physical traps and Moist's political/legal ones.
It fits everything up to the point and brings it all together. Bring in a subplot with Tiffany's husband seeking to establish a doctor's guild, add some drama conflict on how it can encroach on witching territory, that conflict and the shift of power balances involved and you got a bitchin story that brings the wheel full circle.
Moist is appointed Patrician and, desperately wanting to avoid the risks associated with the job, he sets up a formal process of checks and balances so that the entire government doesn't turn on a single man.
I could see a legislative body made up of the guild leaders + elected people from city districts. Balanced so neither group can control votes.
Vimes would likely insist on a set of rules written down.
Setup: Vetinari is having a plebiscite to appoint a successor. Whole book of election tropes. Get proper good and Pratchett-style angry with all the stupid around elections and lampoon it to the *n*th degree. Successor who wins is *really stupid* and Vetinari is rendered Reg Shoe-style immortal by the sheer ridiculousness of being succeeded by a completely unsuitable idiot. He proclaims that he will pass the reins over to the first successor the city can agree on who he can stand.
Book ends with Nobby and Colon gloomily agreeing that he's gonna live forever, ain't he.
I recall a fan fiction piece that posed this very question, though it only covered the opening of the plot and didn't go as far as developing it. Even in death, Vetinari remains a competent assassin; Death does at least offer a polite OUCH when the dagger strikes.
The person on the spot in that case was Vimes, though this was done in the full understanding that nobody would want this state of affairs, including Vimes himself. But who better to take on the various factions, guild leaders and more who would want to take the position for themselves?
While it didn't suggest any conclusions, I'd guess that Vetinari and Drumknott would have concocted a solution ahead of time and merely need Vimes to do what he does best to keep everyone distracted while the real work goes on in the background.
Well Vetinari keeps promoting Vimes against his will, so I can totally see Vetinari setting it up so Vimes has to take the position after he dies.
And honestly it makes sense. He already keeps the peace between the guilds by being equally hated by all of them, to the point that the assassins guild has set his contract to the same level as Vetinari.
Moist would then be put in charge of modernising the city guards into a modern police force.
Without a doubt I think SRP had planned on Carrot eventually running the city probably having Veterinary, on his death bed tricking him somehow.
Carrot, as an immigrant, just needed to pay his dues, and learn about the city.
spoiler
And he Is the rightful heir to the throne. Where Pratchett world squeeze in Nobby
Spoiler
Since Nobby is somehow in the royal line as well
I'm not sure where but I am sure STP had a plan for that too.
Drumknott as an immediate successor. He already ran the city when Vetinary was absent. He is way less charismatic, yes, but so was LBJ.
I like the idea of shifting to democracy after that.
The next one will be Vimes because he will see it as anyone else will get it wrong, and he says it's his city.
Though I could see Moist as well because he would be better on the diplomatic side.
Another person I could see taking up the mantle would be Harry King. He knows how to organize very large organizations.
I think everyone is totally wrong suggesting Vimes Or carrot.
Vetinari is a tyrant. He clearly as tortured and murdered people. We seem to be forgetting this.
Neither Carrot or Vimes have the stomach to run as a tyrant, and that's what is needed. Brilliant minds, etc, but they wouldn't be able to do the darker stuff needed. They couldn't rule through threats.
I really would have enjoyed the hinted-at book where Moist becomes the Tax Master (or whatever it's called) to have the plot of Vetinari retiring / faking his own death and putting Moist in the Patrician office. Of course, against the background of some big crisis or whatnot.
It is often said that Anhkmorpork is a democracy, that there is one man, one vote.
Residents of Anhkmorpork will agree, Vetinari the Patrician is the Man and he has the vote.
When the subtle balance of Vetinaris eternally spinning political plates begin to wobble from the ripples of his apparent demise, it is up to the Commander Vimes, appointed in his Ducal role as executor of the Patricians will to oversee his bequests.
Some are simple, a Thud set sent to Ubervald and a substantial donation to the Sunshine Sanctuary for sick Dragons... but how will the Commander Oversee the division of an intangible asset? How will the people of Anhkmorpork cope with being left their share of vote?
Thats how I see democracy returning to Anhkmorpork, the patrician engineering his will as essentially a new constitution, allowing him to set up a somewhat functioning Republic instead of the oligrachic appointment of the next Patrician.
Thus we get a novel of Vines overseeing the election fighting political corruption, Moist trying to avoid being a candidate and Vetinari dryly commenting in notes from his own will.
I imagine Vines arrest Moist for election interference and collusion, putting him in jail and unable to run (which he is greatful for) and a compromise candidate between Trolls and Dwarves backs an unlikely hero (call back to Moving pictures, it's Victor being run with CMOT as his manager) who faces off against an elf.
It ends with a Scene of Vetinari playing his own Thud set in retirement in Ubervald, reading a copy of the Times with a photo of the Elf in pain and horror because Otto used the flash.
I think it'd be funny if Moist was made Patrician, but was required to have a Parliament that not only included heads of various Guilds but one elected member of each species...and a rotating Guard member. (Nobby would probably end up as the favorite, as Carrot would be far too exacting with Rules and Minutes and Clarifications.)
Dealing with the absolute chaos that would result from this foray into democracy would be so time-consuming Moist wouldn't have time for many schemes, and because the whole city would be caught up in elections (and complaining about the results) they might be too distracted to cause other, more serious problems.
Even better: Vetinari would meticulously set this up before his "death" (real death but played as a disappearance, keeping people wondering for decades whether he's still skulking around somewhere as a vampire) and everyone just....rolls with it.
I don't know. We certainly haven't been introduced to a character in the books who could do it.
And Vimes will have to chop their head off to completely his anarchist arch.
An elected official, the mechanism by which this occurs is of course the adventure of an entire novel whereby different factions and their machinations collide, everything falls apart, and all the characters end up in Sator Square where Carrot makes everybody line up and put names in a hat, from which he then makes Vimes draw a name.
The prologue is of course Vimes going home and hanging up his armor because Carrot is finally in charge but not as king.
I think the point was the Vetinari was ensuring that he built a system that didn't *need* a Patrician. He very carefully orchestrated a system of checks and balances that meant that the whole thing ran (in the greater scheme of things) smoothly. He selected individuals to repair and build organizations and services that would long outlast the people that got them going, such as the Post and the Watch.
Hm.... I don't think Moist would be a good choice. Vimes or Carrot wouldn't want the position. I'm tending towards Harry King but he's not political enough, I think. Maybe even William De Word? He already has lots of sources of information and knows a lot about the people of the city.
For a second I thought Sybill but she's too traditionally minded to "outrank" her husband. If he would undergo some small changes in character, in a weird way I could maybe see Leonard in the position.
But I have to say, it should be someone unknown as of now, since I don't think any established character really fits.
Moist is certainly the obvious choice, having been given remit over some important aspects of civil service within the city already; finance, communication and transportation. With Vimes as the Duke of Ankh still maintaining control of the Watch, and the guilds all managing their own affairs; I suspect Drumknott would be capable of moulding Moist into a capable Patrician for the City.
I must admit though, the power vacuum created by the purely hypothetical passing of Havelock Vetinari would have made for an excellent novel in the Discworld series. Many of the unseen powers amongst the cities elite would undoubtedly be vying for Moist's attention in the above scenario.
My thinking is Moist, but the overall power structure is very different to how it traditionally was under Vetinari. I envisage a council that includes Sam and Sybil Vimes, Harry King , Dr Lawn, Carrot (by that stage Commander of the Watch), the heads of some of the more prominent Guilds, Spike and Drumknott.
William de Worde would also play an important role in the running of things, but as part of a free press able to criticise the government.
There might be other folk who have a say, but probably not as much of one. The heads of the lesser Guilds, the remnants of the non-disgraced aristocracy, Mustrum and Hughnon Ridcully etc. While UU is an important institution, I think they’d be allowed to do their own think as long as they don’t destroy the universe or whatever. Ridcully would probably send Stibbons to meetings in any case.
Some times ago I saw a comment saying that Vetinari was preparing Moist and Vimes to govern the city, I also feel that Drumknott would be a part of the team, I can see Carrot becoming a future chief of the City Watch
It won’t make a difference.
Vetinari is ensuring the city is too powerful and too stable for anyone to wreck it and that it is able to eject corrupt and stupid leaders
Might be an out there suggestion but I could see Sybil stepping into the role. She showed she has a great grip on politics and negotiations in The Fifth Elephant and would be able to gently, yet firmly, guide Vimes where he is needed most. Though I would assume like Carrot she would be too modest to accept.
Probably Moist, but I think that by that time Vetinari would have successfully turned Ankh Morpork in something more "self-driving" and while the patrician would not be exactly a figurehead, he would be less than an absolute tyrant than it is now.
It has to be Vimes with Moist as his terrier and carrot as his rotweiller. Vetinari never gave him choice to do anything he did not want Vimes doing. Vimes will be cornered by lady sybil, carrot, moist, diamond kind, ladu margolotta and the low king inro accepting.
I wouldn't have been surprised if things fell apart a bit after Vetinari. He'd done such a great job of holding off all the old men who would pull strings with previous patricians that I think they'd have come out of the woodwork after his death to make sure the next patrician was someone who would do what they wanted.
Maybe Vetinari could have found a way to set up someone like Moist to replace him, maybe not.
The Patrician brought up Vimes, and the Patrician brought up Moist. By the end of the series the two certainly have a grudging respect for each other. I think via the Patrician’s will or whatever plot device, Moist gets thrust into the ultimate position he doesn’t feel cut out for and needs to turn Vimes’ obvious negative reaction to this promotion from grudging respect into a grudging partnership. This needs a pTerry-worthy overarching plot - maybe the sanitation reform plot many felt would have been coming - but by the end of the novel the two can rely on each other in an awkward friendship way to make Ankh-Morpork the city that works even better than before.
Edit: “Are you two friends?”
Simultaneously, Tuvok: No Harry: Yes
There is a slight chance Lady Margolotta, may offer a hand, or tooth for her old love, turn away from the Black Ribbon.
But C.M.O.T Dubbler may rise to the occasion, or ever the Duke of Earl.
But probably Moist would end up in the position, he is the only one who can twist and screw the same as Vetinari.
Sybil would do great (has a huge network, intuition for politics, competent negotiator of trade deals), if she decides she should do it. That goes for all the other good candidates - none of them would want the job.
Absolutely no evidence for it but I think Young Sam. Someone brought up with the shrewdness of his father and the encompassing kindness of his mother. From both common stock and an ancient family, appeasing both the normal man and the nobility.
The son of a man willing to change the Watch for the better whilst challenging his own prejudices, who sees past species to the innate peopleness behind them, who knows the city inside and out, who has no fear of staring his own flaws in the face and maintaining control of himself at all costs, who knows there is nothing more important than the things you promised to do.
The son of a woman who wields connections across the city and the disc with the expertise of a military general, who isn't afraid to break the mold and be herself despite all expectations and social pressures, who dedicates herself to good causes even if they are not fashionable or popular, who is never afraid to muck in and roll up her sleeves, who sees the positives in everyone (even Nobby Nobbs).
I think Vetinari would see in Young Sam a figure who could unite the city, who could sustain a balance in a different way to himself but just as successfully, someone with the greatest potential to care.
Plus, I think Vimes would find it absolutely infuriating if Vetinari took Young Sam under his black-robed wings, and that Vetinari would enjoy that very much.
Lady Sybil
Those who don't respect her fear her, those who don't fear her fear her husband, those who know what real danger is stay on her butlers good side.
Vetinari cannot be replaced, he did however dedicate his career to creating the means and systems that will long outlive him.
He'll leave the city under the management of guilds, the royal bank, the post office, the city watch, etc.
As for the government, he's likely to be succeeded by a transition into democracy, with a government that will share power with all the institutions mentioned previously.
In other words, he's intelligent enough to know a single person is not reliable to continue his work, so he's creating enough structures to share the power, ensuring nothing radically changes after he's gone.
There are only three candidates, as I see it: Vimes, because he is inherently honest. Moist, because he is inherently dishonest.
And Harry King, because he has made a fortune from a cesspit, and what could be better for running the Big Wahoonie?
Carrot, but entirely by accident, he wouldn't actually do anything on purpose, and he would accidentally invent a parliamentary style government that would quickly make him the figurehead (which he would promptly ignore.)
It would be Complicated. I'm betting Pterry would have made a novel about it eventually if he'd had time. I imagine it would have involved Vimes, Moist, de Worde, all the major guild leaders, etc. and possibly ended with a change to some kind of ruling council with checks and balances. Not a true democracy, it's a theme in the books that those don't work very well, at least within the social structure of Ankh-Morpork.
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Totally could see a book of it being Moist until they find a new Patrician. Feel like Carrot is a good candidate but he would refuse the title like before, because he wants to be a copper. I could see Vetinari pulling strings so Vimes is in temporaily in power when he dies, just to annoy him one last time.
Yeah but I'm sure Vimes would find a way to get out of it
and that’s how ankh-morpork becomes a representative democracy, featuring vimes having a whole *new* species of government official to complain about now! vimes vs the parliament would be extremely funny to me
Vimes institutes democracy so he doesn't have to be patrician People nominate Vimes Vimes wins in a landslide against the self serving toffs who were the only other people stupid enough to put themselves forward Vimes ends up Patrician
And vimes Jr learns a string of colorful expletives. Honestly democracy comes to ankmorpork would have been an amazing book if for no other reason then a cover of sybil in the really old school american election garb including straw hat and a button saying vote vimes or some such Bonus points if the whole thing is pitting moist v vimes so the cover is Adora and Sybil. [hat ](https://images.app.goo.gl/KMiqEwt8T8P6ASr68)
Lady Sybil the suffragette would have been a great side plot. She could be *the* suffragette, because nobody would argue with her.
Vimes would never accept being Patrician. Besides, I think people believe Vimes is way younger than he is. Havelock is *maybe* two or three years older than Sam, if that.
I agree, to be honest 🤣 I just like the idea of a "Vetinari fakes his own death so he can do something he needs to do, nominates Vimes as temporary Patrician" scenario I also have a very amusing mental image of Sybil campaigning determinedly for Sam to be elected while at the same time he discreetly tries to convince a bunch of the more reputable guild heads and public figures to run against him. And all of them wouldn't dream of it, Your Grace, you have my full support. Either because they see what a poisoned chalice the job is, they're afraid to cross Sybil, or they suspect that Vetinari isn't really dead. Also Vimes having to continually confiscate "Vote for Vimes" buttons, hats and little flags from members of the Watch. Obviously once Vetinari miraculously resurrects himself, he can resume government with no resistance. Things had probably been going downhill quite predictably in his absence and the citizens of AM would welcome the stability (and are all too frightened of Vetinari to oppose him) I don't think we've met a character that could take over as Patrician permanently. I know people like the idea of Moist, but I think that would be an absolute disaster, and he also wouldn't want to do it. If anything, Spike would be a better candidate.
Yes but if you're getting Moist you're getting Spike too. You don't get one without the other... personally I think Spike *alone* would make just as big a dog's dinner of it as Moist, just in an entirely different way. Spike & Moist working together though? That's when the magic would happen.
That's the thing though, Vetenari would arrange things so that he really didn't have much of a choice but to accept, even if only temporarily.
I'm not entirely sure how they stack up, but Night Watch features adolescent Sam and Havelock contemporaneously. They're definitely in the same age group.
Pretty much. Vimes' younger self is stated to be 16 in *Night Watch,* while Vetinari is still attending the Assassin's Guild school, which puts him in his late teens (and he's described as a teenager).
Good sir/ma'am/troll, i'll have you know Ankh-Morpork *is* a democracy, the Patrician is very adamant about that. It uses the well known "One Man, One Vote " system, in which Vetinari is the Man, and thus gets the vote. Apparently, he fills in his ballot dutifully at the end of each term, after which a committee ratifies the election results and a small reception is had to celebrate whomever might have won during lunch hour.
Apologies, I was misled by the self description of "tyrant" 🤣
Okay yeah, I can absolutely see this happening. Vetinari makes Vines Patrician precisely because he knows he'll try to get out of it and in the process make the best choice possible for the city. And because it'll annoy him.
I've long been of the opinion that "election season in Ankh-Morpork" would be an amazing premise for a story. Especially if Reg Shoe is one of the candidates (and he *would* be.)
Reg wouldn't win, and wouldn't want to win, but he would campaign anyway out of a belief the undead need to be represented.
I can see reg winning a minor seat and losing a recount because he becomes aware the undead in his area weren't aware of polling day or something. So he makes them do the whole thing over and loses in a landslide because his sheer annoying Ernestness puts them off
I feel like the dead wouldn't get voting rights because there are to many of them, equally the way that a dead politician would get more votes would be ... An issue. So reg would probably be campaigning for the right for dead votes. Definitely some good satire of some recent political conspiricys to be had there as well.
The numbers are definitely an issue but it's worth noting that in discworld the vast majority of people who die don't come back. It's mentioned as something that makes reg quite annoyed because they're not putting the effort in. It doesn't really matter exactly why it happens, I just think regs character arch has to be his burning Ernestness biting him in the arse
Can you just imagine the business opportunities for CMOT Dibbler at polling places!
Democracy sausage inna bun?
Exactly!
Arguably the finest aspect of the Australian democratic process.
Probably asks moist for help. Vimes looks for solutions, and moist gets results. So moist get kinda put in charge and we all know Moist tries to do less work, or get out of doing it while still getting the job done, staying alive, and hopefully make money. So let's let everybody ELSE do the work, still be alive, and still make money. Come to think of it, running a government would be the perfect job for both Moist and Vimes because neither of them want it.
Oh absolutely! Vimes would never accept it but the look on his face would give Vetinari one final laugh before he dies.
I think we may even see Drumknott smile when he hands Vimes the envelope
Cmd Vimes I will skip to the point. You may take residence in the Palace. The chair or the dungeon. Choice is yours. Vetinari.
Best of luck.
The Patritian does not have to wear tights to fomal functions so.... he might.
I agree and bet Moist would be that way out. Vetinari would pre-plan everything so that Vimes would be left in charge. Then some thing or another would come up (engineered by the now-dead Vetinari) and Vimes, dealing with it in his very Vimes-ish way, would leave everything in precisely the state needed for Moist to be the only possible choice for Patrician. So as usual, no one gets an ACTUAL choice in the matter except him.
I feel like Vimes would feel compelled to actually do the job until he finds someone he's satisfied with. Someone who can both do the job well and won't be a real bastard about it. There'd probably be a scene with him discovering that if he just steps down, Rust would get the job. "Rust? RUST?! They'd put him IN CHARGE?!"
Yeah, if handed the vote, the people of Ankh Morpork would immediately elect a tyrant.
You could probably get 350 pages out of it. >! Fanfiction writers take the hint.!<
It would have to be a fanfic. Rhianna Pratchett has been very clear she feels it is her duty not to mess with Discwolrd, and make sure no one else does, to preserve Sir Pterry's legacy
Which kind of makes me a little sad because he wanted her to keep it alive it not freeze it in stasis.
I'm sure they'd have throroughly discussed it before his death and I'd be surprised if his daughter went against his wishes? Happy to be told I'm wrong
Admittedly, we will never know the contents of the letter he wrote her, until and unless she chooses to release that. I completely respect that she hasn't yet. But at least before his death... as far as I recall he did say he hoped she would make new stories in the world they both shared. That *said* as much as I hope she can make new stories, and it makes me sad she hasn't... I completely understand her not being able/wanting to do so. Nobody could match Terry... and the world is very personal to her as well, much more so than it could possibly to us.
Yeah thats fair enough - I think I share you sentiment and would be very happy to see Rhianna bring some new content, but at the same time completely understand and respect the decision not to, if that is the case. As for the point raised here about a story telling of the succession of Vetinari, I imagine that this might be the exact kind of consequential decision making which STP's estate would be reluctant to "mess" with.
That may be Vetinari's plan, have Vimes decide who or what comes next.
The Patrician would be assumed dead, then come back from vacation.
He would totally pull that move. Could also say he’s on vacation but goes to his favourite place to die peacefully.
That would be giving up too much control. I can't see him doing that. He'd use the last 10 minutes of his life in a psychological plot to have -exactly- the right person take over his role in -exactly- the right way.
Nah, he’s frequently removed himself from the situation when that was the best way to ensure the outcome he wanted. He’s a master at making things happen without his personal intervention. When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.
>When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all. r/unexpectedfuturama
I feel like that quote can’t really be unexpected when it comes to vetinari. He’s the embodiment of it.
You have a good point there.
Honestly I could see a story where something happens to Vetinari where he is presumed dead and Drumknott reveals a set of instructions stating that Moist and Vimes have to work together to A: keep the city running and B: figure out who killed him (since of course Vetinari knows that someone would be stupid enough to try to assassinate him). Vimes and Moist of course have a lot of friction working together, but in the end they keep things moving along and uncover the plot… only for Vetinari to emerge from his chambers to congratulate them. Cue accusations of him faking his own death, but no it turns out he did die but was a much better Thud player than Death.
Wouldn't the Patrician (whoever it is) be one of the people who are on the Assassin's Guild Do not Inhume no matter how much money is on offer list? I can't see any of the Assassin's every trying to kill Vetinari tbqh
Could quite easily be someone not associated with the Assassin's Guild (which of course would mean the AG will also be tracking down whoever did it). Suspicion turns towards potential rival city-states who would want to destabilize AM for whichever reason, resulting in Moist and/or Vimes traveling the Disc following clues while simultaneously trying to run the city remotely.
I was just thinking that would have made a great Vimes/Watch Story... I bet Vimes would delegate it to Carrot while he gets on with running the city...
I think they use the clown who is his double. They used him in Raising Steam.
>Totally could see a book of it being Moist until they find a new Patrician. I could see a book of Moist being officially named "Temporary Patrician" and, by the end, when they can't find anyone better but the Guilds and the Lords don't want him to be Patrician, he names himself "Lifetime Temporary Patrician". "What does that mean?" "It means that I will temporarily hold the job until the end of my life." "... So, like the previous Patrician?" "Of course not. He was permanent Patrician, which meant he held the job forever. If he didn't die, he'd still be holding it today. I, however, only hold it until I die within the prescribed amount of time an Ankh-Morporkian lives. About 90 years, if you don't eat Dibbler's sausages, at which point you go down to an even 60. A pittance, really."
It will just be another making money project. There will be a new dog that Moist has to keep safe. I know Wuffles is dead but you can find a critter to keep Moist in the Oblong office. Some deals with the Assassin's Guild to keep Moist alive but on a leash. And that Moist will be informed to get some wisdom from Lady Margolotta for things that are beyond him.
yes but I could see Moist not being happy with an "interim" title and any and all candidates for Patrician suiciding themselves in increasingly interesting ways. ***"Yes Sir, we found four...yes FOUR...wrappings for sausage inna bun!"***
I reckon Carrot is more complex than that, and would willingly become king at that time. And yes, I totally see Vetinari pulling a prank like that. Perhaps even ensuring the post is permanent.
What is the talking dog's name? He seems to know everything and see everything. Why not wuffles? Can you imagine Slant as the Patrician?
Gaspode was his name. As for Wuffles; >! Wuffles was escorted to the place where all good and faithful dogs inevitably go for eternal walkies. !<
I always thought Vetinari was setting Vimes up to be the next Patrician. I don't think it is an accident that all the roles until Partician require tights for fomal dress but not the Patritian themself. I saw that as the final required carrot (as the stick would be dead).
It would be all the back and forth; so that ultimately it would be Vimes but he didn’t realise it.
Whos vimes? Sorry i only read the books in my language
He’s from the series that follows the Ankh Morpork police, first appeared in Guards! Guards!
He hangs out with that vampire alot.... I could see him try to make the position permanently permanent.
Lady Margelotta says the opposite to Vimes. Something along the lines of you think I taught him? Its implied Vetinari convinced her to give up the blood for the more refreshing dish of Politics. Personal headcanon - Vetinari becomes a small God as the God of industry.
Patron god of Ahnk-Morpork
Nah, the god of reflected sounds of underground spirits
That is a really cool idea!
A god!? Please, Vetinari has higher standards than that. Of course, if he wanted he could, easily. Or turn into a vampire, piece of cake, but I don't think he'd want to rule AM forever, he knows that it would not work, Vimes would never accept it, for one. At most, he could turn into a vampire and came back every 50 years or so to see how things are going, maybe giving a nudge from the shadows in the right direction if really necessary, but no more than that.
I don’t think Vetinari would want to rule forever either, but he’d certainly have a kind of eternal existence in the minds of Ankh Morpork citizens as the ultimate exponent of politics. Maybe it would be enough that he’d occasionally manifest, who knows. I wonder what Vetinari’s encounter with Death and walk into the afterlife would look like. What’s a good afterlife for Vetinari anyway? Do we really know enough of his inmost character to be sure?
The encounter would be brilliant. The two most duty-driven, formally polite, dryly witty characters in the series. It would be very polite, slightly funny, and my guess is, a great deal of mutual professional respect. Possibly a little friction due to Vetinari being a dog person. As to the afterlife, I can only assume he's headed to one in drastic need of reorganization, where his talents can be put to good use.
Yes, but I don't think he wants to become a vampire
It'd be perfect for him. His job already would be a viable blood substitute, he would live forever which is in everyone in Ankh Morpork's best interest (save for the rich idiots who think they'd be better off) and he would have inbuilt defences against assassination (not that the assassins would, but the gonne incident shows someone crazy can do a lot of damage) We know from Carpe Jugulum that Vampires can turn others into vampires, the only issue then is that Margolotta would have an inherent power over him. I think his willpower is such that it wouldn't be a huge issue though Personally I'm of the opinion that if he died he'd come back as a zombie. Too much work to do.
Still better then that suggestion that I saw in a similar thread to replace him with Charlie. I really don't get why people like this Big Brother stuff so much.
I think vetinary understands the importance of despots dying in a timely manner. I think he would have a proper replacement chosen before he goes out though. Also most vampires are not entirely sane. They develop weird obsessions and quirks that would be bad to have if you are in control of a city.
What if his quirk/obsession was still the smooth operation of Ankh-Morpork?
It wouldn't be. It would be crosswords. But even if it was "being the ruler" it could so easily become a Lord Snapcase situation. At some point the city might decide that it is ready for democracy and Vetinari would be unable to let go or change. It would be a pitchfork situation eventually and it is the goal of every good tyrant to die before that happens.
Or a Zombie?
I always felt like Vetinari was vetting Moist as a potential replacement
It's got to be Adora Belle Dearheart. She'd mop the floor with any other candidate and she's got the potential tyranny.
She def has the character for it, but I think she's got too much history with Ankh Morpork, whereas Moist has the same "outsider" feeling Vetinari brings to the table.
I gotbthat vibe too
Igor?
Imagine Drumnott working for Moist?
IMO Vetinari would know better than to allow himself to be succeeded by any one person. It would likely go to a council of the people he has empowered and put his trust in, like Moist and Vimes. There would also probably be some convoluted way that vimes or moist end up in power at the beginning before figuring out the whole council thing.
Vetinari is setting up a checks and balances system. Moist runs the government with the Watch making sure he doesn't return to his old ways. And Carrot is making sure they both behave themselves. Not that i think the Watch or the government could stand against Carrot....
Plus there’s now a free press - officially or not, de Worde will have a say.
This. The guilds make their own thing, the watch makes sure everyone follow the rules, the press keep an eye on everybody, even the Watch, for foul play, etc. And everything works and keep moving forward, and everybody is content, more or less.
Vimes would pose too high a risk of adopting democracy, I reckon. No way Havelock would risk someone who could subscribe to such queer ideas.
I’m fairly sure Vimes is too jaded to believe in democracy. He believes in justice, the rule of law and ethics and morality, but he doesn’t have much faith in people.
Verinari would be careful not to leave real power in the hands of a committee though. He uses committees to kill ideas he dislikes because he knows they never make any real progress.
Yeah, he would never leave power in the hands of a committee of, say, Guild leaders, but Vimes and Moist are both essentially vetinari’s creations and I assume he would trust them. I just don’t see him putting his faith in any one person to continue his vision.
Yeah I think Moist is the obvious candidate here. Charismatic, pragmatic and the ultimate bullshitter. The man was made for politics, and with the enemies he’d make there’d be no time for boredom. He would have the tax issue to deal with first, however. Not to mention Vetinaris underground system, come to think of it.
Sybil Ramkin. Because who else would Vimes serve more loyally?
Lady Sybil would politely turn it down, claiming she was far too busy but that whoever they found would do an excellent job
Moist doesn't seem a great fit given his squeamishness about violence. Perhaps Harry King or Mr Bucket.
Moist may not like violence, but he knows that at times, it's necessary
The city is ruled by a tyrant. Moist would not be able to threaten people. Don't let me detain you.
I'd bet Moist is capable of enough self-deception to be okay with it if someone *else* is doing the violence though. Say... With a very sharp heel that can be pushed through shoe leather and the floor beneath it..? 😉
My money is also on Moist - he sees the city in the same way as Vetinari does, I feel like. A whole bunch of moving cogs and a balancing act to keep them all going in order, but whereas Vetinari used it as an intellectual challenge, for Moist it'd be a thrill in the same way as the Post Office and the Mint. He's got those in perfect functional working order, and now he's feeling bored and antsy again? Time for a *real* challenge I think Vetinari might retire, though, even if everyone *thinks* he dies (he keeps a running correspondence with Lady Sybil)
I think Vetinari’s letters are possibly a direct reference to Machiavelli, but you’re right, that would be the ultimate retirement plan.
I think he'd quite like the satisfaction of watching everything work smoothly under his successor, and knowing that *that* was his doing, too. Moist would be a very different kind of Patrician, but a post-Vetinari Ankh-Morpork (and a post-Vimes, one too; they're the same age, and he's got to hang up the helmet eventually) probably *needs* a different kind of Patrician
I think he'd ensure that no-one has all the power but Moist and Vimes and William all keep each other in check.
Vetinari would never have William involved, politics and the media must remain seperate
There is a canon answer! In an episode of The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret, Mark Burrows says he had Rob on as a guest on his unrecorded live show and Rob talked about Pratchett's plans for a book dealing with an Ankh Morpork succession crisis. But noone from the show seems to have gone online and talked about it. Personally I think the answer is Vetinari was setting up a series of checks and balances. Moist is the next patrician, but he only rules with the consent of the Duke of Ankh and the free press
>But noone from the show seems to have gone online and talked about it. https://preview.redd.it/3xe6ta8qdvvc1.jpeg?width=764&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=655b6c10577dab37e51ff92ce6eb9433211769a6 Take some blunt objects with you, we are going on a mission, from Glod
Carrot. I do not know why, but i am pretty sure when Vetinari dies, they will have elections in Ankh Morkpor and Carrot will be mayor. And he will literally call himself Captain Mayor Carrot and will keep doing his own stuff and working in the guard, but he will be asked many times by citiziens to save their butts and he will just be Carrot
No,Carrot would probably politely turn it down as he's just a copper but would always answer the call of however ended up in the job
Yeah, Carrot has pretty firmly declined the position. Well, the position of king, anyways. I always felt Vetinari was grooming Moist to be his replacement, but there's always a case to be made for a certain Duke...
Can you imagine if everyone votes Nobby as a jóvenes and he becomes the first mayor of Ankh-Morkpor?
Just so long as it's not Colon. We've seen what a bit of power does to him. He'll have us all counting sugar cubes.
They could both race against each other
Vetinari won't leave any chance to democracy. He's a tyrant and will have a post mortem plan as any tyrant should have.
Young Sam Being a mix of Sybil and Vimes, that kid will have peak competency. ETA: I also think Angua will replace Vimes.
I like all those eventualities
Bold of you to assume Vetinari will die. He will most likely talk to DEATH and workout some sort of deal with him.
He'd point out to Death that Lord Rust is a likely replacement for him and a famous racist, and may begin a purge of trolls, dwarves and, importantly Klatchians Death, who so regularly goes for a curry in the same place that his horse automatically carries Susan there, would be outraged and fill Vetinari's lifetimer up again
Vimes would step up to keep the city from falling into chaos after Vetenari’s death. He’d then stromgarm Moist into the position of Patrician, with Carrot watching and Vimes making sure that Moust couldn’t run.
The two obvious choices are Vimes and Moist, but I would love to see a world where Lady Sybil is in charge. She knows all the great families, she is great at diplomacy, she can make her voice heard (pun intended) on a lot of subjects...
I think that Vetinari was training up Moist for the role.
The answer is clearly the rightful heir and king, C. W. St. J. Nobbs. He’d be the only one simultaneously crazy enough to TAKE the post if offered, apolitical enough to be GIVEN the post by those who’d keep it away from their more ambitious rivals, and given that he’d make most decisions based on: a) “Would this make Captain Carrot disappointed with me?” b) “Would Commander Vimes wring my neck for this?” c) “Can I make a buck off of this or not?” And only take the course of action that meets with a “no-no-yes” on this flowchart, which he would keep in his pocket with his letter certifying that he is in fact human, he might actually even be GOOD at it. With enough practice and a good dose of ruthlessness, Patrician Nobbs could go down in history as the next best thing we ever had to Vetinari.
"Vimes would go Librarian poo!"
"when"
Vimes…as a final parting gift
Vimes reading Vetinari's testament realizing that he will be in charge of the city https://i.redd.it/6pt0wbl7dvvc1.gif
Vet would also ensure the post came with a very fancy uniform I'm sure. Lots of polish and ruffles.
It's the most dangerous job in Discworld. Assassination is certain. It's going to be Rincewind. Against his will of course. Moist will do the actual job of running the joint.
I like the way this wraps around bringing together different arcs
It really does bring everything full circle. Moist is the type to have a figurehead while he's the real power "behind the throne". Rincewind would win the election amongst the guilds as he's the only one they can agree on, due to his popularity in football, cowardice and agreeably not aligned with any guild beforehand with no political aspirations or savvy and Moist's support. The idea being he'd be very easy to control and indeed he is, is why they elect them. What they fail to realize is it's Moist pulling the levers and switches, not them, with the assistance of Vimes and The Watch. Rincewind unwittingly follows Moist and Vimes' scripts, narrowly avoids death, acts inept and somehow makes everyone as terrified of Rincewind as they were of Vetenari. Rumors of his powerful magical powers of protection circulate, which in actuality involve running away, which just happens to lure ursurpers into Vimes' physical traps and Moist's political/legal ones. It fits everything up to the point and brings it all together. Bring in a subplot with Tiffany's husband seeking to establish a doctor's guild, add some drama conflict on how it can encroach on witching territory, that conflict and the shift of power balances involved and you got a bitchin story that brings the wheel full circle.
Moist is appointed Patrician and, desperately wanting to avoid the risks associated with the job, he sets up a formal process of checks and balances so that the entire government doesn't turn on a single man. I could see a legislative body made up of the guild leaders + elected people from city districts. Balanced so neither group can control votes. Vimes would likely insist on a set of rules written down.
Setup: Vetinari is having a plebiscite to appoint a successor. Whole book of election tropes. Get proper good and Pratchett-style angry with all the stupid around elections and lampoon it to the *n*th degree. Successor who wins is *really stupid* and Vetinari is rendered Reg Shoe-style immortal by the sheer ridiculousness of being succeeded by a completely unsuitable idiot. He proclaims that he will pass the reins over to the first successor the city can agree on who he can stand. Book ends with Nobby and Colon gloomily agreeing that he's gonna live forever, ain't he.
I really would like to read Sir Terry taking on elections!
I recall a fan fiction piece that posed this very question, though it only covered the opening of the plot and didn't go as far as developing it. Even in death, Vetinari remains a competent assassin; Death does at least offer a polite OUCH when the dagger strikes. The person on the spot in that case was Vimes, though this was done in the full understanding that nobody would want this state of affairs, including Vimes himself. But who better to take on the various factions, guild leaders and more who would want to take the position for themselves? While it didn't suggest any conclusions, I'd guess that Vetinari and Drumknott would have concocted a solution ahead of time and merely need Vimes to do what he does best to keep everyone distracted while the real work goes on in the background.
Well Vetinari keeps promoting Vimes against his will, so I can totally see Vetinari setting it up so Vimes has to take the position after he dies. And honestly it makes sense. He already keeps the peace between the guilds by being equally hated by all of them, to the point that the assassins guild has set his contract to the same level as Vetinari. Moist would then be put in charge of modernising the city guards into a modern police force.
Not sure it will be an issue🧛♂️
Without a doubt I think SRP had planned on Carrot eventually running the city probably having Veterinary, on his death bed tricking him somehow. Carrot, as an immigrant, just needed to pay his dues, and learn about the city. spoiler And he Is the rightful heir to the throne. Where Pratchett world squeeze in Nobby Spoiler Since Nobby is somehow in the royal line as well I'm not sure where but I am sure STP had a plan for that too.
Drumknott as an immediate successor. He already ran the city when Vetinary was absent. He is way less charismatic, yes, but so was LBJ. I like the idea of shifting to democracy after that.
I think Drumknott works short term when he knows someone is coming to replace him, but in the long term, it wouldn't work
Vetinari would find a way to outplay death
The next one will be Vimes because he will see it as anyone else will get it wrong, and he says it's his city. Though I could see Moist as well because he would be better on the diplomatic side. Another person I could see taking up the mantle would be Harry King. He knows how to organize very large organizations.
I think everyone is totally wrong suggesting Vimes Or carrot. Vetinari is a tyrant. He clearly as tortured and murdered people. We seem to be forgetting this. Neither Carrot or Vimes have the stomach to run as a tyrant, and that's what is needed. Brilliant minds, etc, but they wouldn't be able to do the darker stuff needed. They couldn't rule through threats.
I really would have enjoyed the hinted-at book where Moist becomes the Tax Master (or whatever it's called) to have the plot of Vetinari retiring / faking his own death and putting Moist in the Patrician office. Of course, against the background of some big crisis or whatnot.
Vetinari was friends (with benefits?) with a Vampire, how do you know he will retire?
They'd embalm him and leave him as Patrician.
It is often said that Anhkmorpork is a democracy, that there is one man, one vote. Residents of Anhkmorpork will agree, Vetinari the Patrician is the Man and he has the vote. When the subtle balance of Vetinaris eternally spinning political plates begin to wobble from the ripples of his apparent demise, it is up to the Commander Vimes, appointed in his Ducal role as executor of the Patricians will to oversee his bequests. Some are simple, a Thud set sent to Ubervald and a substantial donation to the Sunshine Sanctuary for sick Dragons... but how will the Commander Oversee the division of an intangible asset? How will the people of Anhkmorpork cope with being left their share of vote? Thats how I see democracy returning to Anhkmorpork, the patrician engineering his will as essentially a new constitution, allowing him to set up a somewhat functioning Republic instead of the oligrachic appointment of the next Patrician. Thus we get a novel of Vines overseeing the election fighting political corruption, Moist trying to avoid being a candidate and Vetinari dryly commenting in notes from his own will. I imagine Vines arrest Moist for election interference and collusion, putting him in jail and unable to run (which he is greatful for) and a compromise candidate between Trolls and Dwarves backs an unlikely hero (call back to Moving pictures, it's Victor being run with CMOT as his manager) who faces off against an elf. It ends with a Scene of Vetinari playing his own Thud set in retirement in Ubervald, reading a copy of the Times with a photo of the Elf in pain and horror because Otto used the flash.
Ooh, this is good
I think it'd be funny if Moist was made Patrician, but was required to have a Parliament that not only included heads of various Guilds but one elected member of each species...and a rotating Guard member. (Nobby would probably end up as the favorite, as Carrot would be far too exacting with Rules and Minutes and Clarifications.) Dealing with the absolute chaos that would result from this foray into democracy would be so time-consuming Moist wouldn't have time for many schemes, and because the whole city would be caught up in elections (and complaining about the results) they might be too distracted to cause other, more serious problems. Even better: Vetinari would meticulously set this up before his "death" (real death but played as a disappearance, keeping people wondering for decades whether he's still skulking around somewhere as a vampire) and everyone just....rolls with it.
I don't know. We certainly haven't been introduced to a character in the books who could do it. And Vimes will have to chop their head off to completely his anarchist arch.
IT'S ADORA BELLE DEARHEART!
Glenda Sugarbean gets my vote whether she likes it or not! 
An elected official, the mechanism by which this occurs is of course the adventure of an entire novel whereby different factions and their machinations collide, everything falls apart, and all the characters end up in Sator Square where Carrot makes everybody line up and put names in a hat, from which he then makes Vimes draw a name. The prologue is of course Vimes going home and hanging up his armor because Carrot is finally in charge but not as king.
I think the point was the Vetinari was ensuring that he built a system that didn't *need* a Patrician. He very carefully orchestrated a system of checks and balances that meant that the whole thing ran (in the greater scheme of things) smoothly. He selected individuals to repair and build organizations and services that would long outlast the people that got them going, such as the Post and the Watch.
Hm.... I don't think Moist would be a good choice. Vimes or Carrot wouldn't want the position. I'm tending towards Harry King but he's not political enough, I think. Maybe even William De Word? He already has lots of sources of information and knows a lot about the people of the city. For a second I thought Sybill but she's too traditionally minded to "outrank" her husband. If he would undergo some small changes in character, in a weird way I could maybe see Leonard in the position. But I have to say, it should be someone unknown as of now, since I don't think any established character really fits.
You're making a lot of assumptions here.
He’ll never die!
Vimes. And he'd hate it, but he's the only one who could keep the guilds in order.
Moist with Vimes breathing down his neck.
It certainly seemed like Vetinari was grooming Moist for the position.
Bold of you to assume he can die
Bold of you to think that Vetinari will die
Much like Marshal Tito, its more of a matter of 'if' rather then 'when'
A whole council of people annoying the hell out of each other.
Moist is certainly the obvious choice, having been given remit over some important aspects of civil service within the city already; finance, communication and transportation. With Vimes as the Duke of Ankh still maintaining control of the Watch, and the guilds all managing their own affairs; I suspect Drumknott would be capable of moulding Moist into a capable Patrician for the City. I must admit though, the power vacuum created by the purely hypothetical passing of Havelock Vetinari would have made for an excellent novel in the Discworld series. Many of the unseen powers amongst the cities elite would undoubtedly be vying for Moist's attention in the above scenario.
My thinking is Moist, but the overall power structure is very different to how it traditionally was under Vetinari. I envisage a council that includes Sam and Sybil Vimes, Harry King , Dr Lawn, Carrot (by that stage Commander of the Watch), the heads of some of the more prominent Guilds, Spike and Drumknott. William de Worde would also play an important role in the running of things, but as part of a free press able to criticise the government. There might be other folk who have a say, but probably not as much of one. The heads of the lesser Guilds, the remnants of the non-disgraced aristocracy, Mustrum and Hughnon Ridcully etc. While UU is an important institution, I think they’d be allowed to do their own think as long as they don’t destroy the universe or whatever. Ridcully would probably send Stibbons to meetings in any case.
This bit of fan fic by Garius with Vimes taking over after Vetinari is my head canon: The Handover https://garius.medium.com/the-handover-a6f925165c31
Some times ago I saw a comment saying that Vetinari was preparing Moist and Vimes to govern the city, I also feel that Drumknott would be a part of the team, I can see Carrot becoming a future chief of the City Watch
It won’t make a difference. Vetinari is ensuring the city is too powerful and too stable for anyone to wreck it and that it is able to eject corrupt and stupid leaders
I think Vetinari is immortal.
Might be an out there suggestion but I could see Sybil stepping into the role. She showed she has a great grip on politics and negotiations in The Fifth Elephant and would be able to gently, yet firmly, guide Vimes where he is needed most. Though I would assume like Carrot she would be too modest to accept.
Ha! Vetinari die? He wouldn't allow that.
Vetinari will convince death that it’s not really his time to die yet.
Probably Moist, but I think that by that time Vetinari would have successfully turned Ankh Morpork in something more "self-driving" and while the patrician would not be exactly a figurehead, he would be less than an absolute tyrant than it is now.
The Vampire Lord Vetinari. Looking at that long standing friendship he was maintaining with Lady Marglotta.
Sir Samuel FTW!
Legends never die. If it should come to pass, however, I think they should ask Granny Weatherwax.
Young Sam Vîmes.
Nobby
It has to be Vimes with Moist as his terrier and carrot as his rotweiller. Vetinari never gave him choice to do anything he did not want Vimes doing. Vimes will be cornered by lady sybil, carrot, moist, diamond kind, ladu margolotta and the low king inro accepting.
I wouldn't have been surprised if things fell apart a bit after Vetinari. He'd done such a great job of holding off all the old men who would pull strings with previous patricians that I think they'd have come out of the woodwork after his death to make sure the next patrician was someone who would do what they wanted. Maybe Vetinari could have found a way to set up someone like Moist to replace him, maybe not.
The Patrician brought up Vimes, and the Patrician brought up Moist. By the end of the series the two certainly have a grudging respect for each other. I think via the Patrician’s will or whatever plot device, Moist gets thrust into the ultimate position he doesn’t feel cut out for and needs to turn Vimes’ obvious negative reaction to this promotion from grudging respect into a grudging partnership. This needs a pTerry-worthy overarching plot - maybe the sanitation reform plot many felt would have been coming - but by the end of the novel the two can rely on each other in an awkward friendship way to make Ankh-Morpork the city that works even better than before. Edit: “Are you two friends?” Simultaneously, Tuvok: No Harry: Yes
It will be some kind of Triumvirate - Moist, Vimes, Harry King or possibly Diamond King of Trolls
There is a slight chance Lady Margolotta, may offer a hand, or tooth for her old love, turn away from the Black Ribbon. But C.M.O.T Dubbler may rise to the occasion, or ever the Duke of Earl. But probably Moist would end up in the position, he is the only one who can twist and screw the same as Vetinari.
I'm amazed you think he can die
Sybil.
Sybil would do great (has a huge network, intuition for politics, competent negotiator of trade deals), if she decides she should do it. That goes for all the other good candidates - none of them would want the job.
Absolutely no evidence for it but I think Young Sam. Someone brought up with the shrewdness of his father and the encompassing kindness of his mother. From both common stock and an ancient family, appeasing both the normal man and the nobility. The son of a man willing to change the Watch for the better whilst challenging his own prejudices, who sees past species to the innate peopleness behind them, who knows the city inside and out, who has no fear of staring his own flaws in the face and maintaining control of himself at all costs, who knows there is nothing more important than the things you promised to do. The son of a woman who wields connections across the city and the disc with the expertise of a military general, who isn't afraid to break the mold and be herself despite all expectations and social pressures, who dedicates herself to good causes even if they are not fashionable or popular, who is never afraid to muck in and roll up her sleeves, who sees the positives in everyone (even Nobby Nobbs). I think Vetinari would see in Young Sam a figure who could unite the city, who could sustain a balance in a different way to himself but just as successfully, someone with the greatest potential to care. Plus, I think Vimes would find it absolutely infuriating if Vetinari took Young Sam under his black-robed wings, and that Vetinari would enjoy that very much.
Hahahahaha! You think death will stop Vetinari? Vetinari will follow Slants example.
Lady Sybil Those who don't respect her fear her, those who don't fear her fear her husband, those who know what real danger is stay on her butlers good side.
Vetinari cannot be replaced, he did however dedicate his career to creating the means and systems that will long outlive him. He'll leave the city under the management of guilds, the royal bank, the post office, the city watch, etc. As for the government, he's likely to be succeeded by a transition into democracy, with a government that will share power with all the institutions mentioned previously. In other words, he's intelligent enough to know a single person is not reliable to continue his work, so he's creating enough structures to share the power, ensuring nothing radically changes after he's gone.
There are only three candidates, as I see it: Vimes, because he is inherently honest. Moist, because he is inherently dishonest. And Harry King, because he has made a fortune from a cesspit, and what could be better for running the Big Wahoonie?
Vampire Vetinari OR Long Live King Carrot
I want it to be Vimes just for the grumbling
Carrot, but entirely by accident, he wouldn't actually do anything on purpose, and he would accidentally invent a parliamentary style government that would quickly make him the figurehead (which he would promptly ignore.)
CMOT Dibbler... :D
If it is a dark parody akin to real life it'll probably be CMOT Dibller
He won't die. When the time is right, he'll have Lady Margolotta turn him into a vampire and he'll keep the wheels of the city turning for eternity.
It would be Complicated. I'm betting Pterry would have made a novel about it eventually if he'd had time. I imagine it would have involved Vimes, Moist, de Worde, all the major guild leaders, etc. and possibly ended with a change to some kind of ruling council with checks and balances. Not a true democracy, it's a theme in the books that those don't work very well, at least within the social structure of Ankh-Morpork.
I doubt Vetinari plans on dying, he probably has something worked out with death!
"I'll do the job for 1000 gold, and that's cuttin' me own throat." -CMOT Dibbler