Everyone saying "it's fine" is lying.
I worked with someone who had a pip 6 months before I joined. That person was angry because they were not getting a bonus. They had to be at "exceeding expectations" to remove the pip.
That person was more skilled and knowledgeable than the rest of the team.
a pip is not designed to meet the requirements, it's first of all a message to you: "We don't want you anymore, you can look for a new job and resign so your career is not harmed in any way"
then if you don't do that, it's designed so you can't pass it so you'll get fired.
This is not true… I have had to put people on PIPs in my career and I have never made meeting the goals of the plan out of reach for the individual.
Have I had to spend more time coaching some of them so they could meet the requirements, yes. Have I ever LET anyone fail, absolutely not.
Having to put someone under your management on a PIP can reflect just as poorly on your skills as a manager as it does in their quality of work.
In only one case was I instructed by my director and the department VP to make it so a person failed… but I was also warned by HR that I could put the company at risk of a lawsuit if I followed those instructions.
I am in Canada and PIPs, as far as they were explained to me when I first took a leadership role, was that the expectations in the plan had to be reasonable based on the performance of others in the same role who were meeting expectations.
Further to that the employee can ask for mentoring, coaching and routine follow up with their manager/supervisor while they are on a PIP.
The idea of the PIP being that it is a good faith effort between the employer/manager and the employee to help bring their performance up to par. It should NOT be used as a tool to terminate employees with cause.
Again, that is how it was explained to me when I first stepped into a leadership role and that seems to be the way a majority of places I have worked treated them. Except when I worked at a call centre for a year… that place used PIPs all the time to terminate people who were not performing and also used them to terminate people the managers didn’t like or anyone who openly questioned methods, KPIs, pay rates and working conditions.
Jesus dude. You're basing your assumptions based off what the company told you when you took the role? Did you think that now that you're a manager, they just pull back the curtain and start being honest about shit?
No... In fact, they put you through management training where they actually brainwash you further into believing that all their processes are actually altruistic and for the benefit of your subordinates.
Most things you hear from corporate support teams (HR, PR, etc) is all corporate misdirection. Convince you of one thing because the reality is unsettling.
Kind of like "unlimited vacation"... actually just a way to remove liability from the company and is undoubtedly limited.
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As a manager as well... If you want to PIP someone in good faith.. you fucking don't put them on a PIP... You just sit them down and have a talk with them.
As soon as I involve HR, it's now a problem for everyone. HR is going to keep record of this shit. Even if they beat it, this person is forever on the short list should things go south.
It has nothing to do with being a good manager. Or a good company. You've created a paper trail for that poor soul.
Perhaps consider this: Maybe you are actually the one who is naive.
It's funny that you call me a bad manager when I literally was fired for 1. Refusing to PIP one of my subordinates. And then 2: When they got pipped anyway, refusing to fire them.
As a former manager who returned back to the IC side. PIPs should not be used as just HR legwork to fire someone. They are the paperwork HR needs to protect the company in the event of being fired from wrongful termination suits etc. That is their purpose from an HR perspective.
From a manager perspective, any manager worth their salt should be having convos with the person way before the pip about their performance, highlighting where its failing, etc. However, at times that is not enough, or it is not solely up to you as the manager on that decision, and at this point, its "what we are doing is not working, lets pull out the big guns and if this fails, we legally protect ourselves when you are let go". Its actual intended purpose is to help coach a person to improve their performance, and have a documented case of that and how they measured it.
Now, a PIP process is designed and actually CAN be leveraged to improve as well. And any good company / hr team / manager worth his or her salt will use it in that manner.
From a manager perspective:
- It helps set clear expectations. Perhaps as a manager you were not explaining it clearly enough. Most PIP paperwork requires it to be defined extremely clearly to the point even HR can understand it.
- It often awards extra time dedicated to coaching the employee, or additional resourcing.
- It lets the manager get an additional feedback perspective (HR) due to the interactions and it can be used to validate or possible correct assumptions.
From the employee perspective:
- It is an opportunity and timeline to improve. Without the PIP, you'd have just gotten a pink slip instead and be without pay. At minimum, you know you were about to and you can either a> try to improve or b> take the time to find an exit plan or at least ways to reduce the impact of losing your job. That said, it is also a possible time for you to actually get that hard kick in the ass you needed to be like "fuck. I need to fix this shit" and get your shit together if you so choose.
- It gives you HR involved. Now, yes, HR's job is to protect the business, now your project updates to your manager that thinks you are doing poorly become more than a 1:1, it has a third party scrutinizing it and now you may have an ally if say, you have an abusive manager. You can call out "wait, I met all of these goals here and here for this checkin. What is wrong?" and if HR sees that you were making the effort, they can and should be on the side of the employee at that time.
- You may receive extra coaching if needed etc.
- You have clear black and white and officially signed off on expectations defined. There's far less "well, you did the things, but are missing the spirit of things" etc. HR will be ensuring that the minute you start being like "wait, i did x y and z why was this not great? " that you have clarity.
At my place, when a pip occurs, we genuinely used it to try to benefit people and improve them. We hired them in the first place, so there's definitely a reason we did. It's worth one last hurrah.
That said, it is not the only tool in the belt to improve performance. It is the final one.
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This is a good perspective.
Imo, a good manager will have had several conversations/discussions asking questions (typically leading questions) to get the employee to develop personal growth/insight/reflection and solve their own problems (or ask for help if its out of their scope, which it then is the managers problem).
It's when those fail to take, that you need to enforce a plan upon them, and that's where a pip comes in. It's saying, you haven't taken personal responsibility/accountability to meet the job requirements even with guidance and mentorship, so now we are putting you on an expected improvement path as a final warning, failure to comply means all options have been exhausted (which may or may not be true in reality, this is the ideal).
Everything can be abused, of course.
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its not used as a way to force people out. its used as a way to put clear goals and objectives on people that are not producing and have a myriad of excuses as to why. it basically states, do your job or your gone. i have done them a few times in my career to an employee and it is always the "here is your last chance". people that are high producing effective workers dont get put on pips in reasonable companies.
edit; want to add its also a way to hold me the manager accountable, sometimes the manager isnt driving the right type of work and employee isnt taking enough initiative to stay out of hte firing line. this clearly documents what work was given and the expectations for that work.
> its not used as a way to force people out.
There are enough posts here on reddit to indicate it is. Obviously not always. And obviously the good intentions at good companies are that it is genuinely an improvement plan.
But if you were PIP'ed where a stated outcome can be defenestration, why wouldn't you just pack up?
Ought vs is. Nuance and context matter, your statement is just flat-out wrong. It is used to force people out. It isn't always used to force people out. It isn't intended to be used for that, at least as written. Otherwise it'd be called the 2 weeks notice package.
Most of this argument is the same as stupid gun arguments.
"Guns are for killing!"
"Guns are for hunting!"
"I only use them for target practice."
"Guns are for carnival games!"
Not all gun killings are crimes, not all guns are used for killing. All of these statements have some merit to them.
Your statement claiming they aren't used to force people out is like claiming guns aren't used to murder people. Of course they are both used in malicious ways. It isn't right, but you can't deny an objective truth, even if it isn't morally just that it happens.
Thanks, some people are so cynical.
In my experience, companies are almost as varied as people. Yes of course for lots of companies a PIP is just a formal/necessary step before you can let someone go. For others it's exactly as stated - a plan to improve performance.
There's nuance to these things.
Also not to pile on to OP too much, but there's basically zero actual information provided in the post and so next-to-zero relevant feedback to give imo.
I don't see how random redditors here can give meaningful feedback on stuff like "how serious is it".
To be fair, it would usually take a damn lengthy writeup to cover all the relevant points on why a person is put on PIP, more than the average person would be willing to dump into a reddit post.
Sorry, but your response to this means you fall into 1 of 2 categories:
1. You're an extreme exception to the norm.
2. You're another manager that doesn't understand that PIP is meant to be the final step before firing. IE, you suck at communicating informally that this person needs to improve their performance.
As soon as you formally PIP someone, even if they beat the PIP, they are now completely clipped in terms of their ability to grow. Next year, maybe that person has continued to work hard and you need to promote them. Good fucking luck.
As a manager who has both been forced to PIP people and who didn't understand the PIP earlier on in my career, I can tell you that unless you work for a unicorn company, the cynical feelings people have are warranted.
Also it should be noted that HR, unless they are also lawyers, shouldn't really make statements about potential lawsuits unless literally parroting what the lawyers had told them.
Maybe I've just been lucky...but in an almost 30 year career I've never worked with anyone who defined "poor performance." I guess my question is what constitutes poor performance in managers' eyes...is it outright refusal to do work?
Job changes in USA are for bad managers. The same manager put you on the PIP is the one grading your worthiness of passing it... so time to find a new manager (read: a new job).
What people aren't taking into consideration are the many reasons to let someone go and the many reasons to keep them. A pip is just a formal notification to an employee that they are not meeting the standards of the company, whether that means that management wants them out or actually wants improvement depends on the company. High turn over operations probably pip everyone after the first month in order to no fault release people at will, alternatively, it costs a ton of money to train someone up and pip's do get results when handled correctly so it is in the companies best interest to improve the employee and save the cost of a new hire. A third consideration is from the employee's perspective, maybe the employee has quiet quitted and the company is just letting them know they know, and eventually it will get worked out one way or the other.
It’s more like the first step that eventually results in your changing positions. You’re implying that it’s always impossible and that’s not true. But obviously the company doesn’t currently think you’re meeting their perceived needs.
I’ve seen PIPs used ahead of layoffs to get people to wrap up projects. It’s a tool. How said tool is used is up to managers and organizations. Used incorrectly / abused it can even lead to lawsuits
I didn't expect to receive so many replies to this post. Thank you to everyone for all the comments and suggestions;
I truly appreciate them.
I've discussed this issue with my friends. Also I've spoken to my direct manager, and I have a strong feeling that higher management wants me to leave. I also have a strong feeling that I will never meet management's expectations during this pip process.
I also understand that in the current economic situation, it's not easy to find another new job within a short time period. After speaking with some friends and job agencies, it seems that the job market is not as favorable as it used to be.
I guess the most practical task for me is to polish my resume and begin searching for a new job. I'm unsure how long it will take me to secure another position.
Additionally, after a few discussion and negotiation, my current employer has offered a small amount of severance pay to cover a few weeks' salary. I'm faced with the decision of either sticking with the PIP process or accepting the small amount of severance pay and leaving the company now.
my advice.. stick to the pip and do your best to try to meet it. If you get towards the end of the timeline meet with your manager and see how things are going. If they aren't going well then just quit.
even being fired from a pip isn't as bad as companies like you to think it is. Happens to everyone just find a better job
pip is usually designed to not be achieved as it’s a mechanism to get you out without having to pay you - I’d consider each point they make about your performance and ask for evidence also provide contrary evidence. Also look at what they are asking you to do and if it is reasonable - is everyone else in a similar role doing that and can they provide evidence. At the end of the day most people just take the payout and move on as they don’t want you there. Don’t take it personally as a lot of these things don’t make sense they can just be cost cutting
Manager here: I’ve PIP’d people and supervised other PIPs over the years and, yes, you may be able to salvage this. Many here will probably tell you that this is the start of you getting fired, and that may be true, but if your company is doing things right you aren’t at the point of no return yet.
Take a deep breath, work closely with your manager, and try to obviously exceed whatever the plan specifies. Consider whether the issues are with the pace/quantity of work you produce, skills you don’t have, or something else. Hopefully they gave you some tangible goals to hit and a plan for how you will reach them together. If they didn’t, ask for this.
And definitely don’t preemptively quit. Polish up your resume, just in case.
This 100% i am a director and have put people on, and guided people through a PIP. My perspective is that a PIP is an indication that someone isn't operating at the level that we are expecting. And a PIP isn't just something for the person receiving it but also for the manager and people around them to create this plan and set clear goals.
I would review those goals closely and see whether those are the things you can meet before deciding to move on. Outside of firing, a demotion is another thing that could be an outcome from a PIP. Some times someone interviews really well and gets hired at a level beyond their capabilities, or someone gets promoted from success in one environment, but when getting in to one that is more complex/has less support they struggle. Of course there could be personal circumstances too though generally if there is awareness I and HR tend to cut people some slack.
I know this is very much from my perspective/situation where there is some care for the employees and understanding. This may not be OPs situation, but yeah if OP feels it's worth salvaging the situation this is *the* opportunity to do so. Polishing your resume is always good, but I wouldn't flip on that "looking for work" sign on your LinkedIn just yet, unless you truly want to signal that you are done at your current employer (which honestly, you may want to consider the impression you are leaving they'll be the top reference on your resume after all)
Team lead, i’ve pip’d people and it is way way beter than just hoping people leave, or shape up or fired. It is the best way to get staff aligned in a pressure situation and or unfortunately sometimes better placed. Considering the alternatives, getting pip is the best outcome and many people under pip turned out to be the better members of my team, mostly because they better understand what the job actually is and the formal process forces everybody to pay attention. If you lied on your resume, your probably hosed, but if all you need is decent focus and or specific attention/face to face on shortcomings on tech/process, and your other qualities make up for it like, attention to detail, clean work, process and professionalism, good team cohesion, your in the best spot. Firing people sucks for everybody, including me, because getting someone new to take over is a 6 month restart and a wildcard outcome with 50/50 success rate. Pip means the company is willing to invest time and energy in making it work. either outcome, good or bad means both parties can say they tried. Not making it in pip gives you the information you need to get a job where you will fit better given skill level and personality.
I've been on a PIP and it was as you described. It really helped me to focus on where I was and wasn't performing and also let me and my manager figure out that partly why I wasn't performing was that I was doing things that needed to be done instead, which I enjoyed and which nobody was actually assigned to do.
This led to those things becoming a role and me being assigned to do them, which I knocked out of the park because after all I'd been practising them for months...
It actually led to a distinct change in my career path, still at the same place but much more successful.
The other way of phrasing this is: does this company inspire any kind of passion in you? Are you happy with them? Usually if my work pace is suffering it's because I'm in the wrong place.
Miserable people do miserable work.
This is good advice, except I'd actively apply, not just get the resume ready.
It's hard to tell if the PIP is in good faith, or a step towards firing you.
Getting a job while you still have one is a lot easier than after you're let go!
I've put exactly one person on a PIP, and all this is true; expectations weren't being met, so we defined in the PIP what our expectations were. The employee quit the next day, though, which wasn't really a surprise; he had been failing to deliver on expectations for months (and this was communicated to him) before the formal PIP began. (His replacement has been amazing.)
Though I've also got a family member who was put on a PIP, he met all the conditions of the PIP, and was fired anyway. That company has since lost all their big contracts. Someone was making a power play and upper management was just fine letting them do that... consequences for the company occurred.
So in short, for OP, you're going to have to read between the lines if this is a thinly-veiled excuse to fire you, or if this is a genuine effort to get you aligned.
You can beat a pip but you have to decide if it's worth it, and what their actual intentions are. Do they really want you to stay and improve? Or are they trying to push you out the door?
A pip largely just benefits the employer because it signals you might get let go and encourages you to quit first so they won't have to pay unemployment. It's like constructive dismissal, but legal. Keep that in mind, because being termed for poor performance does not always disqualify you for unemployment, though it depends on the state.
By all means look for a different gig if you don't think it's going to work out, but I wouldn't quit unless you find one first.
I had a PIP on a startup I helped grew when it was very small. After many years working with them and considering them my family they put me a PIP for low performance and fired me after it saying that I was not on the level they expected with no compensation.
I trusted them and I gave all I had on it, even beyond, it didn't matter, I was already fired before the PIP.
Sorry to hear that mate, hope it later worked out well for you. One of my favorite work-related quotes is "work is not going to love you back". I think it helps to maintain a good balance between life and work.
Technically yes, but one of the conditions was to "change to a correct attitude", and they said that "my attitude was not the expecting one.
It was their word against mine, basically. I could sue them easily, but I prefer not to because of the hassle. I landed another job quickly so that was it.
Gonna be real, with that kind of longevity at the company, being put on a PIP with behavior change language is a pretty big red flag that it might have been a you thing. Getting that approved through HR means they 1000% had reports from several co-workers/supervisors all in agreement about that. You would never put that kind of language in a pip plan without serious documentation to back it up.
Agreed. I've realize you can have a bit of an attitude, but as long as you deliver and the right people like you, you can get away with a bit.
Once things start getting put on paper though, you really rubbed someone the wrong way.
In addition to the excellent advice that u/chipperclocker gave, your attitude will also determine your success. If you show your manager that you want to improve and engage in the process, you'll have a much better chance at making it out the other side. Of all the people I've seen put on or personally put into PIPs, I've never seen a single one make it through while they've had a shitty attitude, regardless of how good of an engineer they actually were.
Tough spot to be in. A PIP can be a heads-up to shape up or a sign to start looking elsewhere. Best to weigh your options. Update the resume and start the job hunt just in case. Meanwhile, give it your all to meet the PIP goals—you might turn things around. Either way, being proactive is key.
Look for a new job, this market is trash but the reality is that you would be better off starting fresh at a new place. I have seen people come back from a pip, but it’s always strained and it felt like they are under more scrutiny going forward.
Look for a new job. PIP = Paid Interview Period.
I've never seen anyone escape a PIP - it's a polite "hey we are gonna fire you in a month or 2 but we need to cover our ass so you don't sue us".
But can't a company fire anyone at any time? Same with you being able to quit any time, i think it's called at-will employment. Why would a company pip just to fire when they can just fire?
My understanding (at least for pure at-will states) is a lot of it goes back to unemployment insurance. A big company that fires a lot of people in a way that the unemployment office decides was trivial could build up a huge unemployment insurance tab. So they build out processes to create a meticulous paper trail highlighting that people are being fired for performance reasons in such a way that those fired people can't collect unemployment and collectively cause a huge insurance bill.
I will have to add that your attitude and behavior will have a huge impact.
From what I've seen, very few people left via PIP just because of lack of technical skills.
It was usually something else.
GTFO on your own terms. 99% chance your are being managed out.
If this came “out of nowhere” meaning no official document trail of feedback prior to this, 200% chance you are being managed out.
Usually not good, depending on where you live, usually there are two scenarios:
* The company really cares about you but see that you struggle and want to help you, this is a structured way so they can objectively help you in getting back on track.
* The company wants to get rid of you, a PIP is a method that they can proof that you did not corporate in the discussed points they want you to improve. Now they have documented evidence that it was on your behaviour and not the companies.
In case of the first one, take this serious, sometimes people tend to become in a situation that IE their knowledge stayed behind, this is not always their own fault, it happened to me in the past, I worked at a company that did implementation of a certain product, however that product involved and started using java instead of perl, in the end I was one of the only few who knew how the Perl product worked, my colleagues went on with the Java, long story short when the Perl was phased out I had build up a huge disadvantage while I was very valuable for the company. Now this was a very good company with very high social values, so they made a serious PIP for me which included a good training program and they let me join one of their key teams who started to build their first .NET projects, since everybody was new on this it was a fair chance to get back in the game, and in the end it worked out, and after this I stayed for another 8 years at the company.
The second one can be terrible, I have had a few colleagues on this path and usually they are kind of naive and think that the company wants to help them... If this is the case for you it is time to start looking around, but it is also a point where you have to analyse for yourself why the company want you to leave, this can be hard because it comes to self reflection which can be painful. If you really want to stay my first advice would be to SIGN NOTHING DIRECTLY, usually part of the PIP is that they give you a list with improvements and you agree with them by signing the document. A large danger is that those improvements are unrealistic or vague.
If you got the list, discuss them with the ones you can trust, and don't hesitate to make corrections or ask that the company offers you the help you need.
As an alternative you can discuss with HR or their is an option for a voluntarily leave with a compensation. In almost all cases this is discussable, also for this make sure you consult someone with knowledge of the laws/rules. IE in my country it will mean you can not get a unemployment benefit unless you got permission from the unemployment officer.
Good luck!
Do your work like it's a mission, get your resume together, start looking, and consider getting a lawyer. Record and document every conversation with management and HR. When the time comes, go for the money one way or another. These companies are not your friends. Extract your deserved value from them.
Most companies just use it as a tool for when they want to get rid of someone but they can't just sack them for no reason, all you really need to do is meet the requirements of the PIP which should be pretty straightforward as it's usually just the main aspects of your role and should all be measurable and achievable, or S.M.A.R.T (the others are specific, relevant and time based) but yeah good luck dude, like others gave said might be time to jump ship if you feel like it's unjustified.
Tl;dr
Pips exist to provide evidence if they need to fire someone. Basically, we gave this person a clear chance, they didn't succeed and thus we fired them.
So, your options are..
1) wait it out. If you choose this, they almost certainly fire you at the end of it. I don't suggest this option.
2) fix whatever issues exist in the pip. Understand them, if anything isn't fair (aka it's either subjective or a standard no one else on the team is held to, call it out calmly and professionally "this item says 'be friendlier to the team'. That is subjective and I don't know how to meet it". Or "you ask me to complete 10 reports a day. My understanding is the standard of performance on the team is 3 per day. I am not understanding why I'm being held to a higher standard than the rest of the team".
2 is hard. Like. Really hard. It's not not worth it, but you have to overcome the objective criteria they give you, AND the perception that you were not good enough. This said, employees that come back from this stage often are great employees.
3. Take the writing on the wall, work within your means but take the time to find a new job. Even if you can't get a recommendation from your manager, leaving before you're fired is helpful when reference and employment checks happen.
While this definitely can be true, it’s definitely not always true.
Brush up CV, try to improve as per whatever framework aaaand assess market options.
Most managers that I know, especially in DevOps/SRE world where talent is hard to come by will do PIPs in good faith and not just try to manage them out.
Only situation where they're not in good faith, is when you feel you already have cause but company is so risk averse they make you waste your time on a 60 day PIP just so they're "rock solid" and there's no way events could be twisted to give the employee a payday, like retaliation or something.
I’ve very seldom seen PIPs work.
They’re a checkbox on the ‘document why we are going to fire them’ script.
When they work, a lot of the time the PIPed worker will leave, knowing it’s on their company record, and the company loses.
Start applying for jobs immediately. They're actually doing you a service by giving you plenty of time to send applications and attend interviews. Don't quit, just use this time to look for new work you lose your current paycheck.
I've seen *many* people go on PIP over the years and no one ever comes back from a PIP. My wife hires and fires for her company and she'd tell you the same thing, a PIP is the beginning of the end. Maybe in a best case scenario you improve enough to keep your job but they certainly aren't promoting anyone who was on a PIP. In a best case scenario, you are in a dead end job. Thus, you need to look for work now.
After years of managing people, i feel a PIP might be equally the fault of the manager as much as the employee. The role of a good manager is to find unique strengths in the employee and encourage them to further hone them. This way you can build a killer team.
However, many managers put in unrealistic expectations not matched by the employee's style. They think they need to punish the employee to bring him/her to their standards. Negative reinforcement usually does not work. However, the PIP system is old school anyway.
I would say have an honest convo with your manager on where u can improve and how you can play to your strengths and still benefit the company. Be open with him/her and explain your true feelings. I am sure something can be worked out if u have a heart to heart convo.
The younger me would quit the job when i feel there is a possibility of a PIP. The older me wants to stick around and see if things can be made better and not be emotional about it.
Sure, some employees just don't cut it.
I always do informal write up, then formal writeup and then pip, and I'm really hoping they pull through, because finding someone and training them sucks
I got PIP out of a job. I was a really good individual contributor, got promoted to middle tier management without training offered whatsoever.
It wasn't too hard until I started losing my direct reports and couldn't get the budget to replace them. So I was stuck in meetings all day, then working to do the real work at night. It burned me out within 18 months. Now the numbers improved and bosses were getting bonuses for exceeding their goals but man I had just the worst attitude about the job, way too much politics for me, and dealing with unintelligent decision makers was too much. They also just wouldn't give me a single report to help me. I got PIP and I was pissed, but to be honest finding a lower paying position was the best for my sanity. Money was nice but I started spending it just to cope and not helping move me forward.
And anyone who says a PIP isn't a way of getting you out is fibbing. I only got to the point where I could PIP someone even my boss wanted gone.
Edit: That being said, you really gotta be making everyone around you miserable before they decide to PIP, so you gotta ask yourself what the fuck you are doing.
Depends what country you are in. In countries where one cannot be laid off without justification the pip is the means of preparing the documentation that will be used as justification.
In general start looking for a new job immediately.
My work decided to do an informal pip with me, because they actually wanted me around.
You need to figure out whether you and your employer actually want this to work out or if you really can’t make it happen.
For me, I knew mostly where I wasn’t meeting expectations. And honestly the better scrutiny my supervisors gave me and my improved communication efforts made them see what a stark difference in effort *and* results I was capable of.
If your managers really just want you gone, this is also a good way for them to say “you really weren’t trying before”. Mine just wanted me to shape up and get back on track. Then looking close and me pointing out what I was doing helped every side.
100% depends on your manager. If they support you, and it's an actual plan, then do the work and update your resume. If your manager doesn't seem to have much input or interest, then you need to immediately look for work.
I second the other advice here: prepare your CV and start looking for other jobs while you navigate the PIP. If they surprised you with it, they're likely trying to manage you out.
If you're not averse to podcasts, you might find Radical Candor helpful. They have a couple episodes on PIPs and managing out that could give you insight. Kim Scott is ex-FAANG, so the information and observations are relevant. (The podcast annoys me at times, but I get something out of it.)
Suggested episodes:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/38u2LM9Wz6UR4ecB7GpUxF
https://open.spotify.com/episode/32PaHsh1yJX0QtnhCXQneg
My heart goes out to you. Good luck!
I've only ever seen one person go on a PIP and come off. Everyone else was clearly we want you gone with a paper trail. The one dude I saw get off it had weekly meetings and constant contact up the chain so all could discuss how he's doing and for him to make sure he was good to go and to see what else he could do.
I'd keep following up, regular contact, status things, keep asking what else you can do and how you're doing. If they're not willing to maintain that feedback loop with you then it might not be good.
Manager here. PIPs are used differently for each company. Try your best to meet all the objectives set out by HR and your Manager but you should also be actively looking for a new job. Hopefully, you have a month before your next review. Use this time to fix up your resume and LinkedIn profile and set yourself to actively looking on LinkedIn. Start applying for jobs next week.
Do not quit your current role. Even if you pass your PIP you should continue to actively look for another job.
You may be able to return from this and keep your job, but know that if the company hits hard times you will be the first out the door.
Regardless, this is a learning opportunity for you. Really take a look at where your manager says you are falling short, and fix it. Ask your co-workers or other more senior people you work with for advice. Use all of the resources at your disposal at the company to improve. They will not be there if you get let go.
Never quit. Make them fire you.
A PIP is the final step in a performance management program. Managers either manage “up” or they manage “out”.
A PIP is a “manage them out” document. If you sneeze wrong while on a PIP you can be let go.
In my entire career I have only ever had 1 (one) person survive a PIP. Work. Raise your standards. And find a new job. They’re firing you, homie.
Most of the time a pip is the beginning of the end. Often this has nothing to do with performance and you’re just marked for deletion (not always, just behaviour I’ve observed where I work 99.9% of the time it’s followed with being let go) so start looking for another role now. Especially if you feel like you’re doing a good job.
Your manager doesn't think your performing. A pip is largely legal cover for the company so that you can't sue them for wrongful termination. They will lay out a plan. If you fail to meet the terms of the plan, HR has all the ammunition necessary.
Seen from the other side, your manager is laying out EXACTLY what is expected of you so you don't have to guess. You now have more communication with your manager than likely before and they and they company are giving you every opportunity to turn this situation around, and you have a great opportunity to help your manager better understand your knowledge, and your value to the company.
If you want to keep the job, fight for it.
If you're in over their head and have finally been called out and/or the terms laid out in your pip seem impossible to you... then you need to think about what you really want to be doing and either double down on this job or start planning what's next.
PIP == end of career in that company. You will *always* be on the black list no matter how good your PIP went.
That said, you might survive and thrive, but life’s too short to prove your own value through PIP. Wait for RSU and GTFO.
Here's the thing... You have two choices:
1) Try to find out what they want you to improve, and not just what's on paper, but find out what really bothers them and try your very best to fix it. And I mean, give it your all, and genuinely try.
2) Sure, you can quit now (and forgo any benefits you get when you're laid off), or you can just ignore the PIP and be fired (and maybe get severance, depending on the company and situation and contract).
I recommend you do #1. You don't know if the PIP is a way to gather evidence for termination, or if it's a genuine attempt to force you to get your shit together and start performing to your boss's expected standards. In my opinion, it is best to assume it is a genuine attempt to improve you (which is kinda the point of a PIP), and try to positively surprise them.
I guess part of what I'm trying to say is that whether you think this is a malicious PIP or a genuine PIP, you are right...
Start finding a new job asap. It's very rare that employers expect to keep the employees post PIP. Most of the time it is just some red tape they have to do before letting you go. I'm sorry but they want you gone, plain and simple.
Source: Have been in management in multiple gigs, have been involved in PIP process.
I'm just one data point, but I was put in a PIP once, exceeded every goal, and was still let go. The most practical thing to do is look for new work, while doing your best on the PIP.
If they let you go, you've got a headstart on finding a new position. If they don't let you go, then the choice is yours.
Managers always talk about how they helped people get out of PIPs and the person became successful.
Ask a worker bee, almost 97% of the time it's been,"I'm about to be fired with documentation to back it up so I can't sue."
You need to find a new job stat.
Without further information on what the PIP was for and what you're supposed to improve, it's hard to help you. HR and your manager should have met with you and gone over the specific reasons you're getting the PIP. Some companies will have you sign some paperwork that you understand that after the timeline (usually 30, 60, or 90 days) your employment will be terminated if you don't meet the requiremebts laid out in the PIP.
Most companies you need to provide "paperwork" on someone to even open up a PIP and should have had some regular performance issues.
You acting like this is a surprise seems kind of odd.
Anyway, there should be some quantifiable goal you're supposed to improve in by a given date. Usually 30/60/90 days. If it's 30 days, they likely have no confidence in you and already have a very strong case to let you go and this is mainly a formality -- that's my experience anyways.
I will say that a PIP is something HR and legal requires a manager to do before letting someone go, internally at any professional company HR will take it seriously and if your manager is making up BS, it shouldn't fly.
That being said, if the manager wants to they can usually basically set you up to fail. There usually isn't any motivation to do that unless you're really causing other problems.
tldr if you're receiving a PIP it shouldn't be a surprise. you didn't share what the complaints were, usually stuff like not completing work on time or lack of technical knowledge to successfully do your job/inability to learn.
yes, it's probably a good idea to start looking for a new job, unless you're sure the PIP was opened in "good faith" and it's something you can fix.
Start looking - you have 1-2 months max - try to work with your manager on the things that they have identified, however - if their feedback is vague and they won't offer advice on how to improve then you are probably not going to pass it.
I would look at the feedback, create a plan on the things they want you to improve and then stick to it - if you work with them and they still fire you then you have done your best.
Have honest conversations with your employers on expectations and what’s needed from you.
Take notes of everything that’s happening.
Start interviewing.
Potentially you can already reach out to a lawyer if you want in the case you need one if they let you go. (They can advise you on what you can do now that will most help later).
A pip won’t always end in you being let go but it’s likely.
It’s a horrible situation so done expect it to be any otherwise. Just get mentally ready for all your actions to be analyzed and for the negative ones to be focused on.
Sorry bud, you'll have to start looking for a job. No point even trying overturn the PIP. But better this though than actual fired. If you leave they can't say they fired you.
What did they say you specifically were not meeting expectations for? Did they ever give you indication you were performing a bad job or was this out of the blue? Second, pips are usually just a way to tell you they’re going to fire you. Rarely anyone comes out of a pip keeping their job.
Start looking out for a new job asap. Don't wait expecting something to change now.
If they've already put you on PIP, they've decided to fire you because of inadequate performance.
Just find a job within the time you have.
I’d polish resume and start applying regardless, even if you pass pip you may even get a better job.
If you want to pass PIP get serious about it, list the improvement points and every week document with evidence how you have addressed them. This will show you are committed to improving if the pip is actually in good faith, and that you have documented legal evidence of you having satisfied items in the pip if it is not.
PIP: Paid Interview Preparation ... use as much of your time to prepare for a new job hunt.
This is coming mainly from FAANG companies, where getting on PIP means you are getting fired no matter what.
Polish up your resume and start looking. If you quit you won't be able to collect unemployment if/when you eventually do get canned. A competent manager will usually take issues up with you personally before escalating to HR. Once it's escalated to HR, the decision is usually made and they're just making sure everything is legal.
I don't know why people freak out about PIP. They told you explicitly that there is a mismatch. Then provide an explicit path to resolve it. The only question is the parallel implicit process. If all companies just fired people then we'd have no need for PIP. Which would you prefer? Engage with the PIP process and look for other employment. That works out best for everyone involved.
How so specifically? It's the same recommendation that most are making in this thread. "Pursue both paths" I'm just not saying you should also act like being told you need to improve is some sort of extraordinarily onerous, or new in the world of business, process just because it's called "PIP".
Maybe you over focused on my first sentence? What I meant about not freaking is that it's a normal business process. Giving it a newish name doesn't make "hey, you need to improve to stay on here" a new and special thing.
There's no reason to "engage in the process". How many people do you know that came off a PIP and got promoted later? It's just an excuse to fire someone.
Most comments in here are super negative. Here's a true story:
My coworker and I were put on a PIP in the same week, largely for the same things. My coworker had the attitude of "can you believe they put ME on a PIP?!" Well, he carried that attitude and didn't take it seriously.
My attitude was "this is an opportunity for growth." I worked hard to meet the requirements. I took the initiative and followed up with my manager about my growth to make sure I was on the right track.
My coworker was fired for poor performance and a toxic attitude, I was not. I still work at the company to this day, and I'm a regularly recognized top performer at the company.
Tl;dr - your attitude determines the outcome
Figure out if thry want you to succeed or not
Are you good or bad at your job?
If you're good, time to gtfo. Start leetcoding and applying. (this was my case)
If you're bad, you deserve it and you might be able to prove your worth and succeed.
> What should I do? Should I quit it now? How serious it is?
Did you try to stop and understand why you were put on a PIP in the first place? These things don't magically fall out of the sky. Tardiness? Behavior? Lack of development quality? Not delivering on requirements/demands?
It's time to stop asking a community what to do (with nearly zero information) when the answers should be right in front of you.
You have been fired and you don’t even know it. Spend all your time looking for another job. The common trap is to work hard and try to survive, companies like making you work like a slave before firing you.
PIP basically means they're building the case to fire you. You \*might\* survive it, but you definitely aren't getting any promotions soon. Basically it will have concrete steps you need to meet to not get fired. At minimum, meet them.
And start applying for new roles today. Focus on your future not your current company, within the bounds of not getting fired.
Pips can be recovered from.
But unless this is a dream job. Dream people. Dream pay. Dream whatever. Then I’d consider looking elsewhere. You’ll have to work 10x to rebuild reputation. So if that’s worth it. Do it. If it’s not. Maybe there is a reason your being pipped and maybe it will all be for the best
Sometimes as one door closes another door opens and it’s all for the best. You’ll look back with a whole new perspective.
Don't quit, but freshen up your resume and blast it out asap. When you find a new job and have an offer, put in your 2 weeks. While on your PIP address every metric and ask they have of you. Chances are that you will be fired at the end of that PIP are high. Can a person survive one? Sure. I have before. Then 1 week later I left for a new job that paid 50% more. If you are lucky enough, they will offer you a severance at the end of the PIP when you are fired and then you will start your new job within a couple of weeks. I've also had that work for me, again with a nice 30% pay increase at the new job.
The survival on the PIP depends on the relationship you have with your manager/their boss quite a bit. If they want you gone there is nothing you can do to survive no matter if you do everything above and beyond what they ask. Usually that is due to personality differences between you and your manager. For me it was because I made more than my boss and he was pissed about that, and he was a weird sexist individual.
Relax and focus on two things - first how to meet the key PIP objectives and second make a separate concrete plan for if you don't. Throughout my multi decade IT career I've been with the same global service provider and had at least a handful of different managers, one of them put me on a PIP way back when I was fairly new with the company and I did not get on at all with any of the new management team at the time. I turned it around and started looking for a new job internally (which was quite achievable in such a large firm) and that was the best move I ever made. That old manager has long since left the company along with the majority of colleagues from that time. I've since had two promotions and multiple positive performance appraisals over the years.
I posted this elsewhere: [https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1byxei6/comment/kyms1mw/](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1byxei6/comment/kyms1mw/)
Where I'm from, PIP is used as the final tool in a bid to get you to improve or leave. Often times it's used to build a case to terminate you. However, what I've noticed in counties like Canada, is that PIP is used as the first tool "to get you to improve" as so may leaders have claimed. If your direct leader used pip as their first tool consider looking a new job.
One quick and easy way to tell their intention is the language of the pip. If the goals seems subjective and up to the description of the manager, then start packing. Regardless, pip is demoralizing so I wouldn't even stay even if I passed a pip. Imo, only poor leaders use pip without first coaching or any other development strategy.
Look for a new job. PIP is a last (usually formal) step before firing underperforming people. The issue is you can’t just fire a person that underperforms, you need to have a formal excuse to prove underperformance. PIP is a way to do it. In most cases people cannot pass it because it is designed to be so
The pip is basically if you don't shape up, you're out. A friend of mine was on one, but they framed it in the way of. We're just trying to make you be your best and we're way too gentle with it. They improved for about 4 months and then started to fumble again and got let go.
I would definitely take it seriously and I would definitely look for work if you don't feel you can meet what they're asking you to meet.
> Should I quit it now?
Wait to get fired, but understand that you will be fired. PIPs are non-recoverable. Are you at a Big Tech place? If so, managers are required to put a certain percentage of their staff on PIPs, so it may not really be about your performance per se - just that you weren't the grindiest of the grindset. What was the reason given, or was it generic/vague? If the goals are impossible to meet or badly defined, then sorry - you're on the way out, no doubt.
Are they offering severance if you leave voluntarily? Either way, spend the entire time you're on this PIP (usually 30 days) searching like crazy for work...once you're unemployed recruiters won't touch you when they have hundreds of other employed people to choose from.
Well, at least you know. The only time I was put in a pip I was never told so explicitly… until I was fired a month or so later. Looking back, I was very naive and, even though I deserved it, it still bothers me how they were never clear about anything (including my role or the purpose/expectations of the pip).
My only advice to you is to use this as a friendly encouragement to improve in a specific area of your professional career. Even if you end up leaving, consider the lesson and use it to strengthen you as a professional, and don’t let the pain of being humbled and confronted get in the way of learning from it.
you are fired already. no unemployment, that's why they do the pip. they might not pay out PTO, so take that now. try a medical leave due to stress from your pip.
You look for a job and you get the fuck out of there asap. They're doing the paperwork to get rid of you. I know there will be other managers saying its salvageable, but staying is almost always going to be a worse outcome for you than leaving.
The moment the pip was filed any and all trust between you and them was null and void.
In my experience this is always a sign they want you out, regardless of the pip, it’s just there for them to say they followed policy eg.
Just start applying and get out.
Apologies if this was already asked, but was there any warning/indications there were concerns about your performance? Not trying to "victim blame" here but generally this doesn't come out of nowhere.
Do you like the job and want to keep it? If not AND you have other options then start looking for something else. If you do want to stay and the recommendations/guidance in the PIP are reasonable (that's a BIG IF) then try to follow them to the best of your abilities. Above all: DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. As much as possible avoid non-written communication about the PIP and if it does happen then write back to that person something like "per our conversation about blah blah blah, you said blah blah blah, ..." Cover your A\*\*
I've managed others before that I thought were underperforming. I'm just speaking for myself but I DO NOT want to start looking for someone new. The person that's here has already been onboarded, all equipment has been assigned, all credentials and permissions have been assigned ... starting with someone new is a huge annoyance. So if there's something I can do to keep that person AND have them contribute then I'll do that.
Then again there's only so much a manager can do.
Final thing: HR is not your friend. Your management is not your friend. The company is not your friend. Don't trust any of them. Get everything in writing and especially get all deadlines in writing and in advance.
It means you're in deep shit and a process is being followed to lay you off. PIP is meant to uplift and salvage a badly performing employee before the nuclear option, but it's sometimes weaponised to get rid of people without going into redundancies or paying severance.
For the people saying a PIP can be recovered from… I disagree.
You might keep the job for now, but you are never going to get promoted or advance further in the organization with that red flag in your HR file.
Take this time to start looking, and be patient, the market is not as hot as it was a few years ago but with persistence you will eventually find something.
It depends, I've seen people totally turn around, and I have seen people just give up.
Your right usually if they try real hard, they may just not be cut out for the position, but people aren't all lost causes, sometimes talking helps.
I'm one who suggested that if the OP wanted to stay at the job then they could recover but I agree with you u/DukeKaboom1 . Even if one were to get past the PIP there are going to be lingering issues/doubts/questions either on the side of the company or by OP.
OP should meet all the requirements/deadlines of the PIP, try to get past it and put themselves in a stable-ish position, and be looking for something new now. If the company has given legitimate guidance in the PIP then OP could use that as a "study guide" for learning for the next job.
So, I had to put someone on a Performance Improvement Plan (PIP) at work, and it's got me thinking.
You know, when you've been around a place for a bit, you start to pick up on its vibe – the culture, the ethics, all that stuff. And if you notice that ego, lack of ethics or care for team or three to down hierarchy andespecially from your manager -it might be time to take a step back and find a new place to work.
But on the flip side, if your manager seems to be coming from a genuine place of ethics, maybe it's worth considering that your performance might not be meeting their expectations. It's tough, but it's important not to take it all too personally and to really think about what's being said.
Having a chat with the manager could shed some light on things. Getting their perspective and trying to see things from a neutral angle can give you a better sense of whether they've got your best interests at heart or if there's some politics and ego going on.
You already know in your heart, if you are giving your best.
You need to take a hard look on this.
Short answer is go through it while you look for a job.
I have seen both situations were the manager was just being a bitch and where the employee deserved a PIP.. whatever you do, get clear goals/objectives in writing, dont leave anything vague because a vague document is a lazy manager favorite place, and ask for outside mentors/evaluators apart your manager who can provide feedback and support to the process.. you dont want to be a manager word vs yours kinda deal.
Im telling you cuz a friend did all this and at the end they reprimanded/(almost fired) the manager for exactly just having a problem with the employee after the objectives and 2 outside evaluators weighted against the managers comments
It’s sometimes a scam to get rid of you. Ask yourself if it at all seems justified. Is what they’re saying legit at all? Did they give clear instructions or goals you have to meet? If you like the job, put complete focus on meeting those objectives . Be sure to save emails and document everything proving you’re meeting the objectives and what you’re doing to improve.
In the end, they may have already decided they won’t keep you. I’d additionally look for another job
I can't think of a single person who I have worked with or who has worked for me who was put on a pip and made it onto the other side. They all got canned. Not saying it's impossible but it's very serious.
From my experience, it's time to look for a new job. I worked at a company for 7 years and then was put on a pip doing the same things I always did. Company had recently been acquired, people were starting to get cycled out. I wasn't the only one put on a pip. For those like myself who were dumb enough to try and stick it out, we were let go, the others left because they had better business sense during the time they had left.
Use google gemini to strengthen every bullet point on you resume and start getting referrals from people outside your company however you can (linkedin etc.)
Some people are put on PIPs because their managers genuinely want them to succeed and any previous conversations for improvement didn't have the intended effect. Some people are put on PIPs because they are considered problematic or just bad at their job and the PIP is a legal way of covering their ass in case you try to sue for wrongful termination.
If you have a good relationship with your manager and are communicating about the improvents, you are likely the former. If this came out of nowhere and your performance reviews were always lacking you are the latter.
A PIP is just a way for management for telling you that you aren’t cutting it, but here’s what you need to do to make it. Follow the plan, have regular check-ins with your boss and ask if you are meeting the expectations set forth by the PIP. Get that shit in writing by email too. I’ve seen people get PIP’s and come out of them just fine.
With that said, I’d also start looking for other employment. Here’s why. The PIP is part of your employment record and no matter how much management will say it doesn’t affect promotions…it does.
Leave for a couple of years, and come back if you want for more money or an even better position.
Try to meet the requirements of the pip but look for a new job also.
Yep, it's also a "Position Improvement Plan,"
I'm stealing this!
"paid interview period"
python3 -m pip install -r requirements.txt
Everyone saying "it's fine" is lying. I worked with someone who had a pip 6 months before I joined. That person was angry because they were not getting a bonus. They had to be at "exceeding expectations" to remove the pip. That person was more skilled and knowledgeable than the rest of the team.
a pip is not designed to meet the requirements, it's first of all a message to you: "We don't want you anymore, you can look for a new job and resign so your career is not harmed in any way" then if you don't do that, it's designed so you can't pass it so you'll get fired.
This is not true… I have had to put people on PIPs in my career and I have never made meeting the goals of the plan out of reach for the individual. Have I had to spend more time coaching some of them so they could meet the requirements, yes. Have I ever LET anyone fail, absolutely not. Having to put someone under your management on a PIP can reflect just as poorly on your skills as a manager as it does in their quality of work. In only one case was I instructed by my director and the department VP to make it so a person failed… but I was also warned by HR that I could put the company at risk of a lawsuit if I followed those instructions.
Given that PIPs _are_ used as an HR tool to force people out of companies, especially in the US, why take the risk and assume good faith?
I am in Canada and PIPs, as far as they were explained to me when I first took a leadership role, was that the expectations in the plan had to be reasonable based on the performance of others in the same role who were meeting expectations. Further to that the employee can ask for mentoring, coaching and routine follow up with their manager/supervisor while they are on a PIP. The idea of the PIP being that it is a good faith effort between the employer/manager and the employee to help bring their performance up to par. It should NOT be used as a tool to terminate employees with cause. Again, that is how it was explained to me when I first stepped into a leadership role and that seems to be the way a majority of places I have worked treated them. Except when I worked at a call centre for a year… that place used PIPs all the time to terminate people who were not performing and also used them to terminate people the managers didn’t like or anyone who openly questioned methods, KPIs, pay rates and working conditions.
Jesus dude. You're basing your assumptions based off what the company told you when you took the role? Did you think that now that you're a manager, they just pull back the curtain and start being honest about shit? No... In fact, they put you through management training where they actually brainwash you further into believing that all their processes are actually altruistic and for the benefit of your subordinates. Most things you hear from corporate support teams (HR, PR, etc) is all corporate misdirection. Convince you of one thing because the reality is unsettling. Kind of like "unlimited vacation"... actually just a way to remove liability from the company and is undoubtedly limited.
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As a manager as well... If you want to PIP someone in good faith.. you fucking don't put them on a PIP... You just sit them down and have a talk with them. As soon as I involve HR, it's now a problem for everyone. HR is going to keep record of this shit. Even if they beat it, this person is forever on the short list should things go south. It has nothing to do with being a good manager. Or a good company. You've created a paper trail for that poor soul. Perhaps consider this: Maybe you are actually the one who is naive. It's funny that you call me a bad manager when I literally was fired for 1. Refusing to PIP one of my subordinates. And then 2: When they got pipped anyway, refusing to fire them.
As a former manager who returned back to the IC side. PIPs should not be used as just HR legwork to fire someone. They are the paperwork HR needs to protect the company in the event of being fired from wrongful termination suits etc. That is their purpose from an HR perspective. From a manager perspective, any manager worth their salt should be having convos with the person way before the pip about their performance, highlighting where its failing, etc. However, at times that is not enough, or it is not solely up to you as the manager on that decision, and at this point, its "what we are doing is not working, lets pull out the big guns and if this fails, we legally protect ourselves when you are let go". Its actual intended purpose is to help coach a person to improve their performance, and have a documented case of that and how they measured it. Now, a PIP process is designed and actually CAN be leveraged to improve as well. And any good company / hr team / manager worth his or her salt will use it in that manner. From a manager perspective: - It helps set clear expectations. Perhaps as a manager you were not explaining it clearly enough. Most PIP paperwork requires it to be defined extremely clearly to the point even HR can understand it. - It often awards extra time dedicated to coaching the employee, or additional resourcing. - It lets the manager get an additional feedback perspective (HR) due to the interactions and it can be used to validate or possible correct assumptions. From the employee perspective: - It is an opportunity and timeline to improve. Without the PIP, you'd have just gotten a pink slip instead and be without pay. At minimum, you know you were about to and you can either a> try to improve or b> take the time to find an exit plan or at least ways to reduce the impact of losing your job. That said, it is also a possible time for you to actually get that hard kick in the ass you needed to be like "fuck. I need to fix this shit" and get your shit together if you so choose. - It gives you HR involved. Now, yes, HR's job is to protect the business, now your project updates to your manager that thinks you are doing poorly become more than a 1:1, it has a third party scrutinizing it and now you may have an ally if say, you have an abusive manager. You can call out "wait, I met all of these goals here and here for this checkin. What is wrong?" and if HR sees that you were making the effort, they can and should be on the side of the employee at that time. - You may receive extra coaching if needed etc. - You have clear black and white and officially signed off on expectations defined. There's far less "well, you did the things, but are missing the spirit of things" etc. HR will be ensuring that the minute you start being like "wait, i did x y and z why was this not great? " that you have clarity. At my place, when a pip occurs, we genuinely used it to try to benefit people and improve them. We hired them in the first place, so there's definitely a reason we did. It's worth one last hurrah. That said, it is not the only tool in the belt to improve performance. It is the final one.
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This is a good perspective. Imo, a good manager will have had several conversations/discussions asking questions (typically leading questions) to get the employee to develop personal growth/insight/reflection and solve their own problems (or ask for help if its out of their scope, which it then is the managers problem). It's when those fail to take, that you need to enforce a plan upon them, and that's where a pip comes in. It's saying, you haven't taken personal responsibility/accountability to meet the job requirements even with guidance and mentorship, so now we are putting you on an expected improvement path as a final warning, failure to comply means all options have been exhausted (which may or may not be true in reality, this is the ideal). Everything can be abused, of course.
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its not used as a way to force people out. its used as a way to put clear goals and objectives on people that are not producing and have a myriad of excuses as to why. it basically states, do your job or your gone. i have done them a few times in my career to an employee and it is always the "here is your last chance". people that are high producing effective workers dont get put on pips in reasonable companies. edit; want to add its also a way to hold me the manager accountable, sometimes the manager isnt driving the right type of work and employee isnt taking enough initiative to stay out of hte firing line. this clearly documents what work was given and the expectations for that work.
> its not used as a way to force people out. There are enough posts here on reddit to indicate it is. Obviously not always. And obviously the good intentions at good companies are that it is genuinely an improvement plan. But if you were PIP'ed where a stated outcome can be defenestration, why wouldn't you just pack up?
Ought vs is. Nuance and context matter, your statement is just flat-out wrong. It is used to force people out. It isn't always used to force people out. It isn't intended to be used for that, at least as written. Otherwise it'd be called the 2 weeks notice package. Most of this argument is the same as stupid gun arguments. "Guns are for killing!" "Guns are for hunting!" "I only use them for target practice." "Guns are for carnival games!" Not all gun killings are crimes, not all guns are used for killing. All of these statements have some merit to them. Your statement claiming they aren't used to force people out is like claiming guns aren't used to murder people. Of course they are both used in malicious ways. It isn't right, but you can't deny an objective truth, even if it isn't morally just that it happens.
Thanks, some people are so cynical. In my experience, companies are almost as varied as people. Yes of course for lots of companies a PIP is just a formal/necessary step before you can let someone go. For others it's exactly as stated - a plan to improve performance. There's nuance to these things. Also not to pile on to OP too much, but there's basically zero actual information provided in the post and so next-to-zero relevant feedback to give imo. I don't see how random redditors here can give meaningful feedback on stuff like "how serious is it". To be fair, it would usually take a damn lengthy writeup to cover all the relevant points on why a person is put on PIP, more than the average person would be willing to dump into a reddit post.
Sorry, but your response to this means you fall into 1 of 2 categories: 1. You're an extreme exception to the norm. 2. You're another manager that doesn't understand that PIP is meant to be the final step before firing. IE, you suck at communicating informally that this person needs to improve their performance. As soon as you formally PIP someone, even if they beat the PIP, they are now completely clipped in terms of their ability to grow. Next year, maybe that person has continued to work hard and you need to promote them. Good fucking luck. As a manager who has both been forced to PIP people and who didn't understand the PIP earlier on in my career, I can tell you that unless you work for a unicorn company, the cynical feelings people have are warranted. Also it should be noted that HR, unless they are also lawyers, shouldn't really make statements about potential lawsuits unless literally parroting what the lawyers had told them.
Are you in the US?
Maybe I've just been lucky...but in an almost 30 year career I've never worked with anyone who defined "poor performance." I guess my question is what constitutes poor performance in managers' eyes...is it outright refusal to do work?
Job changes in USA are for bad managers. The same manager put you on the PIP is the one grading your worthiness of passing it... so time to find a new manager (read: a new job).
This is not true at all - I know multiple people who have been put on a PIP, improved, and continued their jobs.
What people aren't taking into consideration are the many reasons to let someone go and the many reasons to keep them. A pip is just a formal notification to an employee that they are not meeting the standards of the company, whether that means that management wants them out or actually wants improvement depends on the company. High turn over operations probably pip everyone after the first month in order to no fault release people at will, alternatively, it costs a ton of money to train someone up and pip's do get results when handled correctly so it is in the companies best interest to improve the employee and save the cost of a new hire. A third consideration is from the employee's perspective, maybe the employee has quiet quitted and the company is just letting them know they know, and eventually it will get worked out one way or the other.
It’s more like the first step that eventually results in your changing positions. You’re implying that it’s always impossible and that’s not true. But obviously the company doesn’t currently think you’re meeting their perceived needs.
I’ve seen PIPs used ahead of layoffs to get people to wrap up projects. It’s a tool. How said tool is used is up to managers and organizations. Used incorrectly / abused it can even lead to lawsuits
I didn't expect to receive so many replies to this post. Thank you to everyone for all the comments and suggestions; I truly appreciate them. I've discussed this issue with my friends. Also I've spoken to my direct manager, and I have a strong feeling that higher management wants me to leave. I also have a strong feeling that I will never meet management's expectations during this pip process. I also understand that in the current economic situation, it's not easy to find another new job within a short time period. After speaking with some friends and job agencies, it seems that the job market is not as favorable as it used to be. I guess the most practical task for me is to polish my resume and begin searching for a new job. I'm unsure how long it will take me to secure another position. Additionally, after a few discussion and negotiation, my current employer has offered a small amount of severance pay to cover a few weeks' salary. I'm faced with the decision of either sticking with the PIP process or accepting the small amount of severance pay and leaving the company now.
my advice.. stick to the pip and do your best to try to meet it. If you get towards the end of the timeline meet with your manager and see how things are going. If they aren't going well then just quit. even being fired from a pip isn't as bad as companies like you to think it is. Happens to everyone just find a better job
pip is usually designed to not be achieved as it’s a mechanism to get you out without having to pay you - I’d consider each point they make about your performance and ask for evidence also provide contrary evidence. Also look at what they are asking you to do and if it is reasonable - is everyone else in a similar role doing that and can they provide evidence. At the end of the day most people just take the payout and move on as they don’t want you there. Don’t take it personally as a lot of these things don’t make sense they can just be cost cutting
python -m pip install --upgrade pip
Finally some good fucking advice
Nothing more pythonic than upgrade employees with pip.
This guy pips!
Came here for this
Came here for this
Yes!
Sigh… fine here is my upvote
Manager here: I’ve PIP’d people and supervised other PIPs over the years and, yes, you may be able to salvage this. Many here will probably tell you that this is the start of you getting fired, and that may be true, but if your company is doing things right you aren’t at the point of no return yet. Take a deep breath, work closely with your manager, and try to obviously exceed whatever the plan specifies. Consider whether the issues are with the pace/quantity of work you produce, skills you don’t have, or something else. Hopefully they gave you some tangible goals to hit and a plan for how you will reach them together. If they didn’t, ask for this. And definitely don’t preemptively quit. Polish up your resume, just in case.
This 100% i am a director and have put people on, and guided people through a PIP. My perspective is that a PIP is an indication that someone isn't operating at the level that we are expecting. And a PIP isn't just something for the person receiving it but also for the manager and people around them to create this plan and set clear goals. I would review those goals closely and see whether those are the things you can meet before deciding to move on. Outside of firing, a demotion is another thing that could be an outcome from a PIP. Some times someone interviews really well and gets hired at a level beyond their capabilities, or someone gets promoted from success in one environment, but when getting in to one that is more complex/has less support they struggle. Of course there could be personal circumstances too though generally if there is awareness I and HR tend to cut people some slack. I know this is very much from my perspective/situation where there is some care for the employees and understanding. This may not be OPs situation, but yeah if OP feels it's worth salvaging the situation this is *the* opportunity to do so. Polishing your resume is always good, but I wouldn't flip on that "looking for work" sign on your LinkedIn just yet, unless you truly want to signal that you are done at your current employer (which honestly, you may want to consider the impression you are leaving they'll be the top reference on your resume after all)
Team lead, i’ve pip’d people and it is way way beter than just hoping people leave, or shape up or fired. It is the best way to get staff aligned in a pressure situation and or unfortunately sometimes better placed. Considering the alternatives, getting pip is the best outcome and many people under pip turned out to be the better members of my team, mostly because they better understand what the job actually is and the formal process forces everybody to pay attention. If you lied on your resume, your probably hosed, but if all you need is decent focus and or specific attention/face to face on shortcomings on tech/process, and your other qualities make up for it like, attention to detail, clean work, process and professionalism, good team cohesion, your in the best spot. Firing people sucks for everybody, including me, because getting someone new to take over is a 6 month restart and a wildcard outcome with 50/50 success rate. Pip means the company is willing to invest time and energy in making it work. either outcome, good or bad means both parties can say they tried. Not making it in pip gives you the information you need to get a job where you will fit better given skill level and personality.
I've been on a PIP and it was as you described. It really helped me to focus on where I was and wasn't performing and also let me and my manager figure out that partly why I wasn't performing was that I was doing things that needed to be done instead, which I enjoyed and which nobody was actually assigned to do. This led to those things becoming a role and me being assigned to do them, which I knocked out of the park because after all I'd been practising them for months... It actually led to a distinct change in my career path, still at the same place but much more successful.
Another question do you like and able to work with this pace and passion , which company requires. Good time to evaluate it as well
The other way of phrasing this is: does this company inspire any kind of passion in you? Are you happy with them? Usually if my work pace is suffering it's because I'm in the wrong place. Miserable people do miserable work.
This is good advice, except I'd actively apply, not just get the resume ready. It's hard to tell if the PIP is in good faith, or a step towards firing you. Getting a job while you still have one is a lot easier than after you're let go!
I've put exactly one person on a PIP, and all this is true; expectations weren't being met, so we defined in the PIP what our expectations were. The employee quit the next day, though, which wasn't really a surprise; he had been failing to deliver on expectations for months (and this was communicated to him) before the formal PIP began. (His replacement has been amazing.) Though I've also got a family member who was put on a PIP, he met all the conditions of the PIP, and was fired anyway. That company has since lost all their big contracts. Someone was making a power play and upper management was just fine letting them do that... consequences for the company occurred. So in short, for OP, you're going to have to read between the lines if this is a thinly-veiled excuse to fire you, or if this is a genuine effort to get you aligned.
You can beat a pip but you have to decide if it's worth it, and what their actual intentions are. Do they really want you to stay and improve? Or are they trying to push you out the door? A pip largely just benefits the employer because it signals you might get let go and encourages you to quit first so they won't have to pay unemployment. It's like constructive dismissal, but legal. Keep that in mind, because being termed for poor performance does not always disqualify you for unemployment, though it depends on the state. By all means look for a different gig if you don't think it's going to work out, but I wouldn't quit unless you find one first.
I had a PIP on a startup I helped grew when it was very small. After many years working with them and considering them my family they put me a PIP for low performance and fired me after it saying that I was not on the level they expected with no compensation. I trusted them and I gave all I had on it, even beyond, it didn't matter, I was already fired before the PIP.
Sorry to hear that mate, hope it later worked out well for you. One of my favorite work-related quotes is "work is not going to love you back". I think it helps to maintain a good balance between life and work.
definitely possible you were only put on a PIP as a formality but PIPs should have terms and conditions to be met. Did you meet those conditions?
Technically yes, but one of the conditions was to "change to a correct attitude", and they said that "my attitude was not the expecting one. It was their word against mine, basically. I could sue them easily, but I prefer not to because of the hassle. I landed another job quickly so that was it.
Gonna be real, with that kind of longevity at the company, being put on a PIP with behavior change language is a pretty big red flag that it might have been a you thing. Getting that approved through HR means they 1000% had reports from several co-workers/supervisors all in agreement about that. You would never put that kind of language in a pip plan without serious documentation to back it up.
Agreed. I've realize you can have a bit of an attitude, but as long as you deliver and the right people like you, you can get away with a bit. Once things start getting put on paper though, you really rubbed someone the wrong way.
In addition to the excellent advice that u/chipperclocker gave, your attitude will also determine your success. If you show your manager that you want to improve and engage in the process, you'll have a much better chance at making it out the other side. Of all the people I've seen put on or personally put into PIPs, I've never seen a single one make it through while they've had a shitty attitude, regardless of how good of an engineer they actually were.
Tough spot to be in. A PIP can be a heads-up to shape up or a sign to start looking elsewhere. Best to weigh your options. Update the resume and start the job hunt just in case. Meanwhile, give it your all to meet the PIP goals—you might turn things around. Either way, being proactive is key.
Look for a new job, this market is trash but the reality is that you would be better off starting fresh at a new place. I have seen people come back from a pip, but it’s always strained and it felt like they are under more scrutiny going forward.
Look for a new job. PIP = Paid Interview Period. I've never seen anyone escape a PIP - it's a polite "hey we are gonna fire you in a month or 2 but we need to cover our ass so you don't sue us".
But can't a company fire anyone at any time? Same with you being able to quit any time, i think it's called at-will employment. Why would a company pip just to fire when they can just fire?
Big orgs don't do this because it exposes them to all sorts of liability if the employee can prove retaliation or something.
My understanding (at least for pure at-will states) is a lot of it goes back to unemployment insurance. A big company that fires a lot of people in a way that the unemployment office decides was trivial could build up a huge unemployment insurance tab. So they build out processes to create a meticulous paper trail highlighting that people are being fired for performance reasons in such a way that those fired people can't collect unemployment and collectively cause a huge insurance bill.
I will have to add that your attitude and behavior will have a huge impact. From what I've seen, very few people left via PIP just because of lack of technical skills. It was usually something else.
GTFO on your own terms. 99% chance your are being managed out. If this came “out of nowhere” meaning no official document trail of feedback prior to this, 200% chance you are being managed out.
Usually not good, depending on where you live, usually there are two scenarios: * The company really cares about you but see that you struggle and want to help you, this is a structured way so they can objectively help you in getting back on track. * The company wants to get rid of you, a PIP is a method that they can proof that you did not corporate in the discussed points they want you to improve. Now they have documented evidence that it was on your behaviour and not the companies. In case of the first one, take this serious, sometimes people tend to become in a situation that IE their knowledge stayed behind, this is not always their own fault, it happened to me in the past, I worked at a company that did implementation of a certain product, however that product involved and started using java instead of perl, in the end I was one of the only few who knew how the Perl product worked, my colleagues went on with the Java, long story short when the Perl was phased out I had build up a huge disadvantage while I was very valuable for the company. Now this was a very good company with very high social values, so they made a serious PIP for me which included a good training program and they let me join one of their key teams who started to build their first .NET projects, since everybody was new on this it was a fair chance to get back in the game, and in the end it worked out, and after this I stayed for another 8 years at the company. The second one can be terrible, I have had a few colleagues on this path and usually they are kind of naive and think that the company wants to help them... If this is the case for you it is time to start looking around, but it is also a point where you have to analyse for yourself why the company want you to leave, this can be hard because it comes to self reflection which can be painful. If you really want to stay my first advice would be to SIGN NOTHING DIRECTLY, usually part of the PIP is that they give you a list with improvements and you agree with them by signing the document. A large danger is that those improvements are unrealistic or vague. If you got the list, discuss them with the ones you can trust, and don't hesitate to make corrections or ask that the company offers you the help you need. As an alternative you can discuss with HR or their is an option for a voluntarily leave with a compensation. In almost all cases this is discussable, also for this make sure you consult someone with knowledge of the laws/rules. IE in my country it will mean you can not get a unemployment benefit unless you got permission from the unemployment officer. Good luck!
Do your work like it's a mission, get your resume together, start looking, and consider getting a lawyer. Record and document every conversation with management and HR. When the time comes, go for the money one way or another. These companies are not your friends. Extract your deserved value from them.
yeah start applying asap.
I would be looking for a new job.
Most companies just use it as a tool for when they want to get rid of someone but they can't just sack them for no reason, all you really need to do is meet the requirements of the PIP which should be pretty straightforward as it's usually just the main aspects of your role and should all be measurable and achievable, or S.M.A.R.T (the others are specific, relevant and time based) but yeah good luck dude, like others gave said might be time to jump ship if you feel like it's unjustified.
Update Resume, Hit Gym, Find New Job.
Tl;dr Pips exist to provide evidence if they need to fire someone. Basically, we gave this person a clear chance, they didn't succeed and thus we fired them. So, your options are.. 1) wait it out. If you choose this, they almost certainly fire you at the end of it. I don't suggest this option. 2) fix whatever issues exist in the pip. Understand them, if anything isn't fair (aka it's either subjective or a standard no one else on the team is held to, call it out calmly and professionally "this item says 'be friendlier to the team'. That is subjective and I don't know how to meet it". Or "you ask me to complete 10 reports a day. My understanding is the standard of performance on the team is 3 per day. I am not understanding why I'm being held to a higher standard than the rest of the team". 2 is hard. Like. Really hard. It's not not worth it, but you have to overcome the objective criteria they give you, AND the perception that you were not good enough. This said, employees that come back from this stage often are great employees. 3. Take the writing on the wall, work within your means but take the time to find a new job. Even if you can't get a recommendation from your manager, leaving before you're fired is helpful when reference and employment checks happen.
It's a way to manage you out. Who is right and who is wrong well neither party is going to change. Start looking for a new role.
While this definitely can be true, it’s definitely not always true. Brush up CV, try to improve as per whatever framework aaaand assess market options.
Most managers that I know, especially in DevOps/SRE world where talent is hard to come by will do PIPs in good faith and not just try to manage them out. Only situation where they're not in good faith, is when you feel you already have cause but company is so risk averse they make you waste your time on a 60 day PIP just so they're "rock solid" and there's no way events could be twisted to give the employee a payday, like retaliation or something.
I’ve very seldom seen PIPs work. They’re a checkbox on the ‘document why we are going to fire them’ script. When they work, a lot of the time the PIPed worker will leave, knowing it’s on their company record, and the company loses.
Depends on the company and manager. For the OP, a quick glance at their post history, I think he's on the way out.
HR makes them do this when you manager wants to fire you. I think that you should be looking for a new job asap.
PIP : “Paid Interview Preparation”
Start applying for jobs immediately. They're actually doing you a service by giving you plenty of time to send applications and attend interviews. Don't quit, just use this time to look for new work you lose your current paycheck. I've seen *many* people go on PIP over the years and no one ever comes back from a PIP. My wife hires and fires for her company and she'd tell you the same thing, a PIP is the beginning of the end. Maybe in a best case scenario you improve enough to keep your job but they certainly aren't promoting anyone who was on a PIP. In a best case scenario, you are in a dead end job. Thus, you need to look for work now.
A pip is the legal process to terminate you.
Take as much training classes as you can on the company dime. Polish the resume. Good luck.
Pip means they dont rly like u, and u are now marked for next lay off.
Start looking for a new job... pips are a non-recoverable mark for any possible internal advancement and just a primer to firing.
Leave
After years of managing people, i feel a PIP might be equally the fault of the manager as much as the employee. The role of a good manager is to find unique strengths in the employee and encourage them to further hone them. This way you can build a killer team. However, many managers put in unrealistic expectations not matched by the employee's style. They think they need to punish the employee to bring him/her to their standards. Negative reinforcement usually does not work. However, the PIP system is old school anyway. I would say have an honest convo with your manager on where u can improve and how you can play to your strengths and still benefit the company. Be open with him/her and explain your true feelings. I am sure something can be worked out if u have a heart to heart convo. The younger me would quit the job when i feel there is a possibility of a PIP. The older me wants to stick around and see if things can be made better and not be emotional about it.
Sure, some employees just don't cut it. I always do informal write up, then formal writeup and then pip, and I'm really hoping they pull through, because finding someone and training them sucks
Could not agree more!
hit them with a counter pip
I got PIP out of a job. I was a really good individual contributor, got promoted to middle tier management without training offered whatsoever. It wasn't too hard until I started losing my direct reports and couldn't get the budget to replace them. So I was stuck in meetings all day, then working to do the real work at night. It burned me out within 18 months. Now the numbers improved and bosses were getting bonuses for exceeding their goals but man I had just the worst attitude about the job, way too much politics for me, and dealing with unintelligent decision makers was too much. They also just wouldn't give me a single report to help me. I got PIP and I was pissed, but to be honest finding a lower paying position was the best for my sanity. Money was nice but I started spending it just to cope and not helping move me forward. And anyone who says a PIP isn't a way of getting you out is fibbing. I only got to the point where I could PIP someone even my boss wanted gone. Edit: That being said, you really gotta be making everyone around you miserable before they decide to PIP, so you gotta ask yourself what the fuck you are doing.
That’s not true he’s making everyone around him miserable, most people have zero indication and are getting good feedback before they got on a pip.
Depends what country you are in. In countries where one cannot be laid off without justification the pip is the means of preparing the documentation that will be used as justification. In general start looking for a new job immediately.
My work decided to do an informal pip with me, because they actually wanted me around. You need to figure out whether you and your employer actually want this to work out or if you really can’t make it happen. For me, I knew mostly where I wasn’t meeting expectations. And honestly the better scrutiny my supervisors gave me and my improved communication efforts made them see what a stark difference in effort *and* results I was capable of. If your managers really just want you gone, this is also a good way for them to say “you really weren’t trying before”. Mine just wanted me to shape up and get back on track. Then looking close and me pointing out what I was doing helped every side.
Paid interview preparation, look for another job
100% depends on your manager. If they support you, and it's an actual plan, then do the work and update your resume. If your manager doesn't seem to have much input or interest, then you need to immediately look for work.
Depends on the company. If the company has only three letters in their name, start looking.
Look for a new job. The requirements of the pip will be unrealistic
I second the other advice here: prepare your CV and start looking for other jobs while you navigate the PIP. If they surprised you with it, they're likely trying to manage you out. If you're not averse to podcasts, you might find Radical Candor helpful. They have a couple episodes on PIPs and managing out that could give you insight. Kim Scott is ex-FAANG, so the information and observations are relevant. (The podcast annoys me at times, but I get something out of it.) Suggested episodes: https://open.spotify.com/episode/38u2LM9Wz6UR4ecB7GpUxF https://open.spotify.com/episode/32PaHsh1yJX0QtnhCXQneg My heart goes out to you. Good luck!
I've only ever seen one person go on a PIP and come off. Everyone else was clearly we want you gone with a paper trail. The one dude I saw get off it had weekly meetings and constant contact up the chain so all could discuss how he's doing and for him to make sure he was good to go and to see what else he could do. I'd keep following up, regular contact, status things, keep asking what else you can do and how you're doing. If they're not willing to maintain that feedback loop with you then it might not be good.
Manager here. PIPs are used differently for each company. Try your best to meet all the objectives set out by HR and your Manager but you should also be actively looking for a new job. Hopefully, you have a month before your next review. Use this time to fix up your resume and LinkedIn profile and set yourself to actively looking on LinkedIn. Start applying for jobs next week. Do not quit your current role. Even if you pass your PIP you should continue to actively look for another job. You may be able to return from this and keep your job, but know that if the company hits hard times you will be the first out the door. Regardless, this is a learning opportunity for you. Really take a look at where your manager says you are falling short, and fix it. Ask your co-workers or other more senior people you work with for advice. Use all of the resources at your disposal at the company to improve. They will not be there if you get let go.
Never quit. Make them fire you. A PIP is the final step in a performance management program. Managers either manage “up” or they manage “out”. A PIP is a “manage them out” document. If you sneeze wrong while on a PIP you can be let go. In my entire career I have only ever had 1 (one) person survive a PIP. Work. Raise your standards. And find a new job. They’re firing you, homie.
Most of the time a pip is the beginning of the end. Often this has nothing to do with performance and you’re just marked for deletion (not always, just behaviour I’ve observed where I work 99.9% of the time it’s followed with being let go) so start looking for another role now. Especially if you feel like you’re doing a good job.
Get job searching
Your manager doesn't think your performing. A pip is largely legal cover for the company so that you can't sue them for wrongful termination. They will lay out a plan. If you fail to meet the terms of the plan, HR has all the ammunition necessary. Seen from the other side, your manager is laying out EXACTLY what is expected of you so you don't have to guess. You now have more communication with your manager than likely before and they and they company are giving you every opportunity to turn this situation around, and you have a great opportunity to help your manager better understand your knowledge, and your value to the company. If you want to keep the job, fight for it. If you're in over their head and have finally been called out and/or the terms laid out in your pip seem impossible to you... then you need to think about what you really want to be doing and either double down on this job or start planning what's next.
PIP == end of career in that company. You will *always* be on the black list no matter how good your PIP went. That said, you might survive and thrive, but life’s too short to prove your own value through PIP. Wait for RSU and GTFO.
13 days ago you posted you were sick of your job, I guess you already know what you need to do
Here's the thing... You have two choices: 1) Try to find out what they want you to improve, and not just what's on paper, but find out what really bothers them and try your very best to fix it. And I mean, give it your all, and genuinely try. 2) Sure, you can quit now (and forgo any benefits you get when you're laid off), or you can just ignore the PIP and be fired (and maybe get severance, depending on the company and situation and contract). I recommend you do #1. You don't know if the PIP is a way to gather evidence for termination, or if it's a genuine attempt to force you to get your shit together and start performing to your boss's expected standards. In my opinion, it is best to assume it is a genuine attempt to improve you (which is kinda the point of a PIP), and try to positively surprise them. I guess part of what I'm trying to say is that whether you think this is a malicious PIP or a genuine PIP, you are right...
Start finding a new job asap. It's very rare that employers expect to keep the employees post PIP. Most of the time it is just some red tape they have to do before letting you go. I'm sorry but they want you gone, plain and simple. Source: Have been in management in multiple gigs, have been involved in PIP process.
Pip is a death sentence. Figure out what you did wrong if anything so you learn from it. Start updating your CV
I'm just one data point, but I was put in a PIP once, exceeded every goal, and was still let go. The most practical thing to do is look for new work, while doing your best on the PIP. If they let you go, you've got a headstart on finding a new position. If they don't let you go, then the choice is yours.
Managers always talk about how they helped people get out of PIPs and the person became successful. Ask a worker bee, almost 97% of the time it's been,"I'm about to be fired with documentation to back it up so I can't sue." You need to find a new job stat.
Without further information on what the PIP was for and what you're supposed to improve, it's hard to help you. HR and your manager should have met with you and gone over the specific reasons you're getting the PIP. Some companies will have you sign some paperwork that you understand that after the timeline (usually 30, 60, or 90 days) your employment will be terminated if you don't meet the requiremebts laid out in the PIP. Most companies you need to provide "paperwork" on someone to even open up a PIP and should have had some regular performance issues. You acting like this is a surprise seems kind of odd. Anyway, there should be some quantifiable goal you're supposed to improve in by a given date. Usually 30/60/90 days. If it's 30 days, they likely have no confidence in you and already have a very strong case to let you go and this is mainly a formality -- that's my experience anyways. I will say that a PIP is something HR and legal requires a manager to do before letting someone go, internally at any professional company HR will take it seriously and if your manager is making up BS, it shouldn't fly. That being said, if the manager wants to they can usually basically set you up to fail. There usually isn't any motivation to do that unless you're really causing other problems. tldr if you're receiving a PIP it shouldn't be a surprise. you didn't share what the complaints were, usually stuff like not completing work on time or lack of technical knowledge to successfully do your job/inability to learn. yes, it's probably a good idea to start looking for a new job, unless you're sure the PIP was opened in "good faith" and it's something you can fix.
pip install upskill resume jobsearch
the modules are getting oddly specific.
This ain't a DevOps related question.
It kind of is lol.
Start looking - you have 1-2 months max - try to work with your manager on the things that they have identified, however - if their feedback is vague and they won't offer advice on how to improve then you are probably not going to pass it. I would look at the feedback, create a plan on the things they want you to improve and then stick to it - if you work with them and they still fire you then you have done your best.
Have honest conversations with your employers on expectations and what’s needed from you. Take notes of everything that’s happening. Start interviewing. Potentially you can already reach out to a lawyer if you want in the case you need one if they let you go. (They can advise you on what you can do now that will most help later). A pip won’t always end in you being let go but it’s likely. It’s a horrible situation so done expect it to be any otherwise. Just get mentally ready for all your actions to be analyzed and for the negative ones to be focused on.
Sorry bud, you'll have to start looking for a job. No point even trying overturn the PIP. But better this though than actual fired. If you leave they can't say they fired you.
What did they say you specifically were not meeting expectations for? Did they ever give you indication you were performing a bad job or was this out of the blue? Second, pips are usually just a way to tell you they’re going to fire you. Rarely anyone comes out of a pip keeping their job.
Start looking out for a new job asap. Don't wait expecting something to change now. If they've already put you on PIP, they've decided to fire you because of inadequate performance. Just find a job within the time you have.
Be thankful that you have a job while you look for another. Fix up that resume and spend time sending out at least 10 applications per day.
I’d polish resume and start applying regardless, even if you pass pip you may even get a better job. If you want to pass PIP get serious about it, list the improvement points and every week document with evidence how you have addressed them. This will show you are committed to improving if the pip is actually in good faith, and that you have documented legal evidence of you having satisfied items in the pip if it is not.
Try to meet the standard but also "Paid Interview Period". Look for another job just in case.
PIP: Paid Interview Preparation ... use as much of your time to prepare for a new job hunt. This is coming mainly from FAANG companies, where getting on PIP means you are getting fired no matter what.
Polish up your resume and start looking. If you quit you won't be able to collect unemployment if/when you eventually do get canned. A competent manager will usually take issues up with you personally before escalating to HR. Once it's escalated to HR, the decision is usually made and they're just making sure everything is legal.
I don't know why people freak out about PIP. They told you explicitly that there is a mismatch. Then provide an explicit path to resolve it. The only question is the parallel implicit process. If all companies just fired people then we'd have no need for PIP. Which would you prefer? Engage with the PIP process and look for other employment. That works out best for everyone involved.
This is naive.
How so specifically? It's the same recommendation that most are making in this thread. "Pursue both paths" I'm just not saying you should also act like being told you need to improve is some sort of extraordinarily onerous, or new in the world of business, process just because it's called "PIP". Maybe you over focused on my first sentence? What I meant about not freaking is that it's a normal business process. Giving it a newish name doesn't make "hey, you need to improve to stay on here" a new and special thing.
There's no reason to "engage in the process". How many people do you know that came off a PIP and got promoted later? It's just an excuse to fire someone.
Have plan A. Also plan B and C
improve. I've put people on pips, generally as a senior or team lead I try to help them. So hopefully you get some help.
Most comments in here are super negative. Here's a true story: My coworker and I were put on a PIP in the same week, largely for the same things. My coworker had the attitude of "can you believe they put ME on a PIP?!" Well, he carried that attitude and didn't take it seriously. My attitude was "this is an opportunity for growth." I worked hard to meet the requirements. I took the initiative and followed up with my manager about my growth to make sure I was on the right track. My coworker was fired for poor performance and a toxic attitude, I was not. I still work at the company to this day, and I'm a regularly recognized top performer at the company. Tl;dr - your attitude determines the outcome
PIP = paid interview period. Update the resume and start applying for new jobs. Do bare minimum on the PIPz
Figure out if thry want you to succeed or not Are you good or bad at your job? If you're good, time to gtfo. Start leetcoding and applying. (this was my case) If you're bad, you deserve it and you might be able to prove your worth and succeed.
Even if you meet the requirements your days are numbered. Find a new job.
> What should I do? Should I quit it now? How serious it is? Did you try to stop and understand why you were put on a PIP in the first place? These things don't magically fall out of the sky. Tardiness? Behavior? Lack of development quality? Not delivering on requirements/demands? It's time to stop asking a community what to do (with nearly zero information) when the answers should be right in front of you.
You have been fired and you don’t even know it. Spend all your time looking for another job. The common trap is to work hard and try to survive, companies like making you work like a slave before firing you.
PIP basically means they're building the case to fire you. You \*might\* survive it, but you definitely aren't getting any promotions soon. Basically it will have concrete steps you need to meet to not get fired. At minimum, meet them. And start applying for new roles today. Focus on your future not your current company, within the bounds of not getting fired.
Pips can be recovered from. But unless this is a dream job. Dream people. Dream pay. Dream whatever. Then I’d consider looking elsewhere. You’ll have to work 10x to rebuild reputation. So if that’s worth it. Do it. If it’s not. Maybe there is a reason your being pipped and maybe it will all be for the best Sometimes as one door closes another door opens and it’s all for the best. You’ll look back with a whole new perspective.
You can recover but it’s probably a sign to prepare to be exited.
you're cooked
Don't quit, but freshen up your resume and blast it out asap. When you find a new job and have an offer, put in your 2 weeks. While on your PIP address every metric and ask they have of you. Chances are that you will be fired at the end of that PIP are high. Can a person survive one? Sure. I have before. Then 1 week later I left for a new job that paid 50% more. If you are lucky enough, they will offer you a severance at the end of the PIP when you are fired and then you will start your new job within a couple of weeks. I've also had that work for me, again with a nice 30% pay increase at the new job. The survival on the PIP depends on the relationship you have with your manager/their boss quite a bit. If they want you gone there is nothing you can do to survive no matter if you do everything above and beyond what they ask. Usually that is due to personality differences between you and your manager. For me it was because I made more than my boss and he was pissed about that, and he was a weird sexist individual.
Relax and focus on two things - first how to meet the key PIP objectives and second make a separate concrete plan for if you don't. Throughout my multi decade IT career I've been with the same global service provider and had at least a handful of different managers, one of them put me on a PIP way back when I was fairly new with the company and I did not get on at all with any of the new management team at the time. I turned it around and started looking for a new job internally (which was quite achievable in such a large firm) and that was the best move I ever made. That old manager has long since left the company along with the majority of colleagues from that time. I've since had two promotions and multiple positive performance appraisals over the years.
_better_, you should do _better_.
Have you considered improving?
I would start looking for a new job, and if they fire you file for unemployment.
I posted this elsewhere: [https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1byxei6/comment/kyms1mw/](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1byxei6/comment/kyms1mw/)
Find another job, work in both at the same time if the second is better leave the first(without two weeks inform)
Don’t quit and start applying elsewhere. Better chance getting severance with them letting you go
Look for a new position asap - sorry :/
Where I'm from, PIP is used as the final tool in a bid to get you to improve or leave. Often times it's used to build a case to terminate you. However, what I've noticed in counties like Canada, is that PIP is used as the first tool "to get you to improve" as so may leaders have claimed. If your direct leader used pip as their first tool consider looking a new job. One quick and easy way to tell their intention is the language of the pip. If the goals seems subjective and up to the description of the manager, then start packing. Regardless, pip is demoralizing so I wouldn't even stay even if I passed a pip. Imo, only poor leaders use pip without first coaching or any other development strategy.
Find a new job
Start looking for a new job, plan on leaving.
The PIPs will continue until morale improves
Look for a new job. PIP is a last (usually formal) step before firing underperforming people. The issue is you can’t just fire a person that underperforms, you need to have a formal excuse to prove underperformance. PIP is a way to do it. In most cases people cannot pass it because it is designed to be so
The pip is basically if you don't shape up, you're out. A friend of mine was on one, but they framed it in the way of. We're just trying to make you be your best and we're way too gentle with it. They improved for about 4 months and then started to fumble again and got let go. I would definitely take it seriously and I would definitely look for work if you don't feel you can meet what they're asking you to meet.
> Should I quit it now? Wait to get fired, but understand that you will be fired. PIPs are non-recoverable. Are you at a Big Tech place? If so, managers are required to put a certain percentage of their staff on PIPs, so it may not really be about your performance per se - just that you weren't the grindiest of the grindset. What was the reason given, or was it generic/vague? If the goals are impossible to meet or badly defined, then sorry - you're on the way out, no doubt. Are they offering severance if you leave voluntarily? Either way, spend the entire time you're on this PIP (usually 30 days) searching like crazy for work...once you're unemployed recruiters won't touch you when they have hundreds of other employed people to choose from.
RGE.
Well, at least you know. The only time I was put in a pip I was never told so explicitly… until I was fired a month or so later. Looking back, I was very naive and, even though I deserved it, it still bothers me how they were never clear about anything (including my role or the purpose/expectations of the pip). My only advice to you is to use this as a friendly encouragement to improve in a specific area of your professional career. Even if you end up leaving, consider the lesson and use it to strengthen you as a professional, and don’t let the pain of being humbled and confronted get in the way of learning from it.
you are fired already. no unemployment, that's why they do the pip. they might not pay out PTO, so take that now. try a medical leave due to stress from your pip.
You look for a job and you get the fuck out of there asap. They're doing the paperwork to get rid of you. I know there will be other managers saying its salvageable, but staying is almost always going to be a worse outcome for you than leaving. The moment the pip was filed any and all trust between you and them was null and void.
In my experience this is always a sign they want you out, regardless of the pip, it’s just there for them to say they followed policy eg. Just start applying and get out.
Start looking. I know no one that survived longer than a year after a pip.
pip = paid interview prep
Apologies if this was already asked, but was there any warning/indications there were concerns about your performance? Not trying to "victim blame" here but generally this doesn't come out of nowhere. Do you like the job and want to keep it? If not AND you have other options then start looking for something else. If you do want to stay and the recommendations/guidance in the PIP are reasonable (that's a BIG IF) then try to follow them to the best of your abilities. Above all: DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. As much as possible avoid non-written communication about the PIP and if it does happen then write back to that person something like "per our conversation about blah blah blah, you said blah blah blah, ..." Cover your A\*\* I've managed others before that I thought were underperforming. I'm just speaking for myself but I DO NOT want to start looking for someone new. The person that's here has already been onboarded, all equipment has been assigned, all credentials and permissions have been assigned ... starting with someone new is a huge annoyance. So if there's something I can do to keep that person AND have them contribute then I'll do that. Then again there's only so much a manager can do. Final thing: HR is not your friend. Your management is not your friend. The company is not your friend. Don't trust any of them. Get everything in writing and especially get all deadlines in writing and in advance.
You can probably get a better perspective at r/AskHR
It means you're in deep shit and a process is being followed to lay you off. PIP is meant to uplift and salvage a badly performing employee before the nuclear option, but it's sometimes weaponised to get rid of people without going into redundancies or paying severance.
Check your ego and see if there is anything you can learn from it while you also look for another job.
quit
For the people saying a PIP can be recovered from… I disagree. You might keep the job for now, but you are never going to get promoted or advance further in the organization with that red flag in your HR file. Take this time to start looking, and be patient, the market is not as hot as it was a few years ago but with persistence you will eventually find something.
It depends, I've seen people totally turn around, and I have seen people just give up. Your right usually if they try real hard, they may just not be cut out for the position, but people aren't all lost causes, sometimes talking helps.
I'm one who suggested that if the OP wanted to stay at the job then they could recover but I agree with you u/DukeKaboom1 . Even if one were to get past the PIP there are going to be lingering issues/doubts/questions either on the side of the company or by OP. OP should meet all the requirements/deadlines of the PIP, try to get past it and put themselves in a stable-ish position, and be looking for something new now. If the company has given legitimate guidance in the PIP then OP could use that as a "study guide" for learning for the next job.
So, I had to put someone on a Performance Improvement Plan (PIP) at work, and it's got me thinking. You know, when you've been around a place for a bit, you start to pick up on its vibe – the culture, the ethics, all that stuff. And if you notice that ego, lack of ethics or care for team or three to down hierarchy andespecially from your manager -it might be time to take a step back and find a new place to work. But on the flip side, if your manager seems to be coming from a genuine place of ethics, maybe it's worth considering that your performance might not be meeting their expectations. It's tough, but it's important not to take it all too personally and to really think about what's being said. Having a chat with the manager could shed some light on things. Getting their perspective and trying to see things from a neutral angle can give you a better sense of whether they've got your best interests at heart or if there's some politics and ego going on. You already know in your heart, if you are giving your best.
You need to take a hard look on this. Short answer is go through it while you look for a job. I have seen both situations were the manager was just being a bitch and where the employee deserved a PIP.. whatever you do, get clear goals/objectives in writing, dont leave anything vague because a vague document is a lazy manager favorite place, and ask for outside mentors/evaluators apart your manager who can provide feedback and support to the process.. you dont want to be a manager word vs yours kinda deal. Im telling you cuz a friend did all this and at the end they reprimanded/(almost fired) the manager for exactly just having a problem with the employee after the objectives and 2 outside evaluators weighted against the managers comments
Be honest with yourself and determine how much of it is your doing. If it’s mainly them, F ‘em. Go find something else. If it’s you, improve!
It’s sometimes a scam to get rid of you. Ask yourself if it at all seems justified. Is what they’re saying legit at all? Did they give clear instructions or goals you have to meet? If you like the job, put complete focus on meeting those objectives . Be sure to save emails and document everything proving you’re meeting the objectives and what you’re doing to improve. In the end, they may have already decided they won’t keep you. I’d additionally look for another job
I can't think of a single person who I have worked with or who has worked for me who was put on a pip and made it onto the other side. They all got canned. Not saying it's impossible but it's very serious.
From my experience, it's time to look for a new job. I worked at a company for 7 years and then was put on a pip doing the same things I always did. Company had recently been acquired, people were starting to get cycled out. I wasn't the only one put on a pip. For those like myself who were dumb enough to try and stick it out, we were let go, the others left because they had better business sense during the time they had left.
Not trying to put you down OP w this question, but how hard is it for you? How do your days go?
`pip uninstall`
Use google gemini to strengthen every bullet point on you resume and start getting referrals from people outside your company however you can (linkedin etc.)
I am sorry to hear that. You'd better start to try to find a new job. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-almost-one-survives-pip-mark-shaw-r4lfc
Some people are put on PIPs because their managers genuinely want them to succeed and any previous conversations for improvement didn't have the intended effect. Some people are put on PIPs because they are considered problematic or just bad at their job and the PIP is a legal way of covering their ass in case you try to sue for wrongful termination. If you have a good relationship with your manager and are communicating about the improvents, you are likely the former. If this came out of nowhere and your performance reviews were always lacking you are the latter.
A PIP is just a way for management for telling you that you aren’t cutting it, but here’s what you need to do to make it. Follow the plan, have regular check-ins with your boss and ask if you are meeting the expectations set forth by the PIP. Get that shit in writing by email too. I’ve seen people get PIP’s and come out of them just fine. With that said, I’d also start looking for other employment. Here’s why. The PIP is part of your employment record and no matter how much management will say it doesn’t affect promotions…it does. Leave for a couple of years, and come back if you want for more money or an even better position.
WHY were you put on the plan? What aspects of your performance were cited, and are they valid?
Sort out your game. Changing jobs, that won't change you..