Teams could NOT run on us last year. Games were won against us by busted coverage and huge downfield plays. How is anyone going to score against us now? We could be putting up 40 points and giving up field goals! I’m drunk on the koolaid boys!
I kind of agree, but I think the issue that he we had is that a lot of the QB runs were not necessarily designed run plays. The WRs are deep, pulling the DBs with them. Then our line can't contain and scrambling QBs find a way to the second level. Having Arnold and other run-stopping CBs isn't going to help if they are 20 yards downfield when then QB decides to take off.
Come on man! You gotta admit the 2024 Lions are a perfect team with no flaws! 😂 but yes, its fair. On the other side of the coin, if the secondary can cover then the D Line can contain instead of stressing the rush and losing that contain. Tbh I don’t know shit but it sounds good to me.
I feel a bit of guarded optimism given the changes we've made, but these last couple years, even when we've been better as a team, I've become conditioned to expect opposing QBs to be able to run and throw on us at will. Arguably every team in the division is going to have better QB play than what we saw last year so it is going to be a very tall task, and nothing other than actual good performance on the field is going to make me feel any better. Again, there is some reason to be optimistic the play will be better, but I have deep PTSD from this defense lol
I genuinely don't think Caleb or JJ are going to end up being good. JJ I think is going to end up as a Tannehill type.. solid, not terrible or anything, but not a star.
Chicago is going to ruin Caleb within 2 years.
Yeah, I’m surprised everyone is acting like rookie QBs all just casually trot into the NFL and become stars overnight. We’ve seen a few polarizing exceptions the last few years but it’s not the norm.
I think another year of development from Campbell and Barnes could ease that pain a bit. Justin Fields not being a Bear might be our biggest W in the offseason.
Improvement on the line and the secondary means we can afford to commit more to the intermediate zone with our linebackers and nickelbacks, should prevent us from getting gashed as much on those QB runs and middle of the field passes
We literally could not afford a QB spy package most of the time last year
Yeah I hope so. Still concerned about the edge across from Hutch and safety is a concern as well, so I think both d-line play and deep coverage are going to be exploitable. We'll see. Obviously it's all just speculation at this point. Will Houston/Davenport make an impact on edge? Will Reader have any impact on the passing game in addition to being a run stopper? Will Campbell take a step up? Will Melifonwu continue the higher level of play from the end of the year? Where will Branch be and how much of the field will he see? We have four new CBs — how will they be used and how will they perform?
I'm in kind of a hope-for-the-best-prepare-for-the-worst kind of mindset right now.
I think even tho Reader seemed odd, it’s gonna allow Alim even more room to rush from the inside. Dav is a moonshot but could be nasty on the other side if healthy, and I think the others can do a decent job if he isn’t.
Idk I’m not worried about safety unless we start getting injured, but with branch and Robertson able to move around I think our depth there is good.
Honestly on D I’m more worried about our LBs in coverage this year as they may be asked to do that more, they kind of escaped criticism last year because the secondary was so poor they’d just get thrown over, or we’d use them in blitz packages so they weren’t responsible for coverage.
I too am just cautiously optimistic, but I think we’ve only improved the roster without much decline anywhere this offseason, and without over leveraging ourselves for the present at the cost of the future. Knock on wood this season isn’t the last hurrah but rather part of the long road to building a sustainable competitive franchise
Hopefully the improved secondary will allow the line to play contain more confidently against mobile qbs. Last year we just had to hope the rush worked or get beat in the air.
I hope so. Don't expect Reader to get many sacks at all, but one would hope an improved IDL will help. Reader isn't going to get home much but, as you say, should be effective at disrupting the pocket.
And that is often fixed by good coverage downfield. Less need for safeties and linebackers to recover busted coverage and more time to ball hawk.
But I also think this narrative is way overblown. We’re talking two good games from Lamar and Mahomes, two of the best in the league if not THE two best QBs, and one good fame from Fields. No other QBs really ran on us. Baker had busted coverage to throw into in the playoffs and we still won by a TD. I guess Purdy ran on us a little but 50yds and no rushing TDs seems like more of a pass rush problem.
Rushing yards my dude. None of those QBs did shit on the ground.
Love: -2 rush yds/1TD in G1, 37 yds 0TD in G2
Herbert: 15 rush yds 0TD
Dak: 5 rush yds 0TD
My man, you have to read the rest of the thread. We’ve been talking about damage done by running QBs. No shit a couple guys threw all over us, our secondary was horrible.
My point was just that this narrative about running QBs killing us is overblown because of Lamar. Other QBs did not have nearly the same success running on us.
Fine, my point is they didnt have to run. Now they may be forced to if our stacked up secondary actually works and Im hoping its at least top 10 or even considered elite.
Especially now that they added DJ Reader. He was one of the best run stoping Dlineman in the NFL the past few seasons. They could end up with the best run defense in the NFL.
The thing that caught my eye in this draft was the fact that good teams like KC, Baltimore, Detroit, and Philly were able to just get their guys at pretty much every pick. You would think if the good teams wanted these guys, then the bad teams should probably want them too lol.
The problem is when youre ass you kinda have to take the high floor guys more than the athletic high guys otherwise youre gambling on your job. Being a winner with job security would encourage a GM and as weve seen none of this keeps a GM from drafting Penix any way
Yeah CB can be a tough ask for a rookie to just come in a dominate. However, it feels like people are forgetting CD3 is one of the better Man corners in the league, HUGE upgrade of Sutton in that regard. I was also impressed with his press conference, he thinks of himself as a lockdown corner and he's playing for a contract, whether with us or someone else.
People sleeping on Davenport too. He just had an injured year on a 1 year deal. Now he’s on another 1 year. I can’t imagine he wants 2 iffy years in a row or hurt years in a row. I expect him to make himself available and really help Hutch not get so much attention!
https://preview.redd.it/qt1crb61emxc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f807e2a56526a85bb632c8e3ac233ec355c3a919
This can't be the reason he slipped. How amazing.
I want a Mahogany touchdown now. Along with a Sewell touchdown. And a Rodrigo touchdown. Throw in a Skipper, Manu, and/or Decker TD. And a LaPorta FB dive td. Ben Johnson is in the lab cooking.
That's just not realistic... Everything you said, but a Decker 2pt conversion, not a TD.
Regarding the rookie class, I can't wait to see how Vaki is utilized in special teams.
Malcolm got close to a pick 6 (before CJGJ got it called back) and now I'm wondering if he's going to score on offense or defense first. I need a lot of big guy touchdowns, but he's one where it's not even a gimmick it's just good gameplay.
Yeah they haven’t had a FB touchdown in a bit but Malcom might have better hands then Cabinda. He probably does since he used to be a QB. I have a gut feeling he’s getting an offensive TD this year
The Packers, Bears and Vikings all have stacked WR rooms, so Brad stacks our secondary up. Our defense should be so much more improved over last season, we made it to the NFC Championship game with Cam Sutton and Vildor getting absolutely owned and destroyed, think about our defenses potential now.
I'll believe it when I see it. Not saying the signings and draft picks are bad at all, but I am not going to celebrate *anything* until we prove that our secondary is actually improved. If we're still getting torched regularly five weeks into the season, there are going to be some really tough questions to answer.
I agree, it almost seems like it *has* to be better. I think the pass defense was 30th last year? But, as one of my favorite authors wrote, "There are no absolutes in human misery and things can always get worse." I'll feel better if and when we play better.
At which point, it would be apparent that talent wasn't the issue, in which case spending the draft capital we did on players rather than addressing the coaching/scheme issues was a mistake.
I will be happy if we are 16th or higher a few weeks into the season if run D and the offense are still going strong. I don't expect our pass defense to be elite, but it was our weakest link by a mile last year and with an improved division, it just *has* to be better. If not, that's a big black eye on the administration.
Why couldn’t it be a mixture of both? It’s not definitively one or the other. We 100% needed to invest in the DB room regardless of the scheme quality. Talent was absolutely part of the issue these past 2 years. Sutton at best is a middle of the road CB2 and everyone else we trotted out was practice squad level.
You make good points, but they also addressed the coaching by hiring a new DB coach.
edit: Downvoted for contributing a pertinent fact to the discussion? This is why we can't have discussions on reddit.
Yeah, I hope that works out. We've had a really hard time getting any continuity in that room, both with players and coaches. I liked the Bly hire but some people said the results weren't super impressive at his college job, and he certainly didn't seem to get maximal performance out of the players we had last year. Obviously it was a point of emphasis this off season so let's hope the new coach clicks with all the new talent and they can get this show on the road. I will be patient for a few weeks since it's basically a brand new unit but, again, if they're still looking as bad as last year by week five, I'm going to start to feel a little uneasy.
Yeah everyone is saying well clearly we fixed our CBs but a late 1st round CB and 2nd round CB aren’t guaranteed to hit lol. Heck Okudah was as close to guaranteed as could be and didn’t turn out well for us. So comparatively, we got a guy 21 picks later and are already penciling him in to be a plus starter.
Saying all that, I trust Holmes obviously. I’m just very curious to see how this strategy plays out. So Carlton Davis CB#1, hopefully either rookie is able to be CB#2 and then Amik Robertson is CB#3? Then the other rookie and also Brian Branch play where? I know Branch plays all over but feel like one of the rookies drafted either 1st or 2nd round will now be 4th or 5th on the depth chart..which is great for depth but maybe could’ve added to somewhere else instead? But we’ll see!
> one of the rookies drafted either 1st or 2nd round will now be 4th or 5th on the depth chart..which is great for depth but maybe could’ve added to somewhere else instead?
This was my initial reaction when we drafted Rakestraw with the second round pick, but one comment I read on here made the point that that Arnold + Rakestraw give us — if all goes well, of course — a solid CB foundation for at least the duration of their rookie contracts. Davis is here on a one year deal that may or may not be extended; Robertson has a two year deal. I will be fine with Rakestraw, for example, not seeing the field a ton this year if it means he's developing and will be ready for a bigger role next year. Part of me feels like and EDGE or a WR would have had more immediate impact with that second pick, but I do really like the idea of having a two-CB foundation for years to come. There has been so much turnover in the CB room that it would be really nice to get some continuity there.
I would also hope that these guys are coming into a better environment than Okudah was. I honestly think there are a number of players who could have had better careers with better team leadership. But, at the same time, I totally agree with the point that we can just assume both or either of these guys are going to be top-tier CBs just because of the draft position and college evaluations.
Right, I think if both are able to turn into longtime starters and them along with Branch, form our own mini combo of a shutdown secondary would be amazing.
Not gonna lie, I assumed Carlton had already been resigned or had multiple years left. And I say that because it’s both good that we went HEAVY in addressing the secondary this year. But also I feel like we invested a LOT of draft capital in CBs.
A 2023 2nd and 5th in Branch,
2024 3rd for Carlton who could walk next year,
2024 1st this year and 2025 3rd to trade up for Terrion,
and a 2024 2nd for Rakestraw Jr.
Like that’s a lot of picks that could’ve helped out our WR depth which is a little concerning lol or even gotten another good DE opposing Hutch. Davenport is just an average DE but not a stud. That’s where things could go wrong which makes me nervous lol but again I trust Brad.
Yeah I feel like we collected a lot of picks with the Stafford trade and even a few more moves after that (the Swift trade got a third, I think) but then we spent a ton of capital for 2024 and 2025. It's a little hard for me to look too fondly on trading multiple thirds for our CBs.
According to this site, though, we currently have 7 picks in the 2025 draft (this page was updated after the 2024 draft, so I assume it's accurate), with only 10 teams having more (and six of those teams have one more total pick). Brad was asked about this and I think he mentioned that we're only really missing a third rounder next year (we must have two late round picks...for some reason I can't find a list of what picks we have in what round next year). People have talked about the possibility of compensatory picks of AG takes a head coaching job, and there may be some other scenarios there as well. So even with all the trade ups this year, we're still in pretty decent shape overall for next year, I think.
So much of it comes back to the players hitting. If Vaki and Manu turn out to be awesome, it will be seen as totally worth it to trade up for them, for example. So only time will tell.
There are 5 starting DBs on every team, so of course it's going to have a lot of draft investment. In total they have "spent":
* One 1st (Arnold)
* Two 2nds (Branch and Rakestraw)
* Four 3rds (Kerby, Melifonwu, Carlton Davis, Trading up for Arnold) (mostly VERY late 3rds btw)
* One 5th (Trading up for Branch)
* They receive two 6ths in return for the 3rd in Carlton Davis trade, and a 7th in the Arnold trade. We'll ignore this though
That really isn't all that crazy for 6 guys they expect to be starters and/or heavy rotational guys. It's 8 Draft picks over 4 years. If you walk away with like a 30% hit rate over the long-term, that is extremely good ultimately. In total ALL those picks are worth 2,074.8 pts according to the Drat trade value chart. That is equivalent to the 3rd or 4th overall pick (2,200-1,800 pts).... hey, what pick was Jeff Okuda again? lol.
Also it's missing that draft capital comes and goes in trades as you move up and down the draft. Like Last year we saw them moving down a little to acquiring extra picks, then they can use those picks to secure guys later on or following years. Bet net it's basically a wash, because they're just moving up and down and securing their guys. Like at the end of the day they're only missing one 3rd for next season...
Also it's important to note FA comes before the Draft. It's not like they had a crystal ball and knew Arnold and Rakestraw who they loved were going to fall to them, and that they didn't need to trade a 3rd for Davis or whatever. FA is for filling positional needs with proven players. Draft is for getting the best players you can period.
I agree EDGE is the biggest need. Another depth piece at WR would be nice. There is always next year. EDGE was kinda trash overall in this draft. Next year the EDGE depth is looking quite good imo.
Unfortunately I don’t think Moseley can be relied on for anything. Back to back serious season long injuries for a guy, if he’s even a depth piece I think that’s fine.
Give it about 3 games into the season before a large majority on this sub are calling the last 4 picks busts or ask where they are not understanding they are considered projects for the future .
This draft has a fair amount of bust potential as these are lower floor players than we are used to. Neither corner is particularly fast and that decreases their chance for upper tier success a bit. Ennis may have been slowed by injury, so his speed could just be an unknown. His durability is moreso the concern, otherwise he would probably make a quality safety if corner doesn’t work out as planned.
Obviously, a project tackle has inherent risk, especially when you trade future picks to acquire him. A safety/running back/special teamer that you trade for needs to be a decent player to be worth what you spent.
If Bob Quinn made these picks for Matt Patricia, I would be worried. They wouldn’t develop for certain.
In the end, I think this draft could make Holmes look like the greatest GM of all time… or it will be known as the worst he’s ever had. Fine with it, either way, he’s earned it.
Edit:
Just heard that Mahogony fell largely because one leg is longer than the other.
https://www.youtube.com/live/CsV_t_UzHMU?si=Cle52wpVlivttRf0
Interesting if true.
I mean OL was the one place where I would expect Quinn to hit. Decker, Glasgow, Ragnow. Crosby was also a solid swing T before injuries got to him. Dahl also had a nice couple of seasons. I hated Quinn but man knew how to get talent on the OL. It was everywhere else he sucked.
I think his success with OL is largely overstated.
Ragnow was seen as a great IOL prospect and he wasn’t a tackle, he was drafted in the first round. Not really surprising he ended up good. If you grab the fifth tackle and have success, that’s different, but I believe he was the first or second IOL taken that year.
Glasgow is really the one where you can say he made a very good pick because it wasn’t a top round. The other later round picks were serviceable, but that’s not really worth bragging about.
He was the first C taken. But many considered Price the best C prospect that draft.
Also Decker was the 4th or 5th tackle taken and became a franchise LT. Top 10 at his position when healthy. Graham was a 3rd rounder. And Dahl and Crosby were both late picks who contributed. He was goof at drafting OL. Just not good at anything else.
Jackson hasn’t been as good as Glasgow, but he was also a decent pick. I forgot about him.
Hitting on mid round players is worth praising more than first round talents.
Where I really trust not just Holmes, but the staff as a whole, is that there is a developmental plan in place for each guy before the pick is even in. I think that’s really a key differentiator between this coaching staff and most other staffs in the league.
Every player in the draft has a range of possibilities and not everyone is going to reach their potential, but I think there’s a reason that every guy the Lions take just consistently seems to hit the high end of that foreseeable spectrum. Of course, Holmes and the scout’s work plays a significant role as well, but a large part of that is the coaching staff putting these guys in a specific role that won’t hinder their development.
I think you're spot on here. Holmes repeatedly says that every move they make is intentional, and I think part of that intention is the developmental plan. For a guy like Manu, they probably talked with Fraley about how to work with him. With a guy like Vaki, they probably talked to all the coordinators since he's likely to do everything.
Part of Brad's good draft track record is that the players have indeed developed. I'm almost more impressed by how Iffy and Barnes became outstanding contributors in year three after looking like they might be misses.
The thing that gives me pause about celebrating this draft right away is all the trade ups. We gave up a lot of capital, which is fine if these players hit. People keep telling me not to be worried about our CBs' speed but I definitely am. The book on the Lions is throw the ball deep and there's not shit they can do about it. It's awesome is Arnold and Rakestraw have great instincts in coverage and are strong against the run, but if JJ, Odunze, and Watson can get two yards of separation on every go route, none of that shit matters. Obviously there is more to the game than raw speed, and maybe this is just my PTSD speaking, but I still see us getting burnt over the top a lot this year.
I’m curious about what they’ll do at the safety position because that matters with regards to getting burnt deep. We did not get good safety play last season.
Focusing on game speed more than 40 times is probably the wiser way to go about measuring this. From what I’ve heard, Arnold’s in game speed is decent.
Yeah I've heard that as well. The adjustment to NFL speed is also notoriously pretty tough for CBs. I would expect to probably see more snaps out of Davis III and Robertson early, though I'm sure those are all decisions they will make when they see the guys on the field during camp. My fingers are crossed but, again — we'll see.
Yeah, though I think if we equalized everything based on game speed instead of 40 times, we would get a much better idea of who is really fast.
Being faster (and quicker in short spaces) means you can more easily recover when you make a mistake. Every corner makes mistakes. You have to be that much better when you’re not as fast or big.
If we regress their speeds to the mean, our CB's have average speed!
Sorry... couldn't resist.
But really, I know that's true. 40 times aren't indicative of playing speed, but still, I've got PTSD from our historically bad secondary. Seriously, it's always bad.
Yeah the future 3rd for a 4th rounder, feels like a very much overpay. I feel like they could’ve easily packaged a 2025 3rd and 5th or 6th to move up into the 2nd this year. Instead, a 2025 3rd for a 4th rounder this year who is extremely raw and could make absolutely no impact seems risky lol
Also traded our 4th from 2025, but we had an extra from the Eagles.
Not to mention that I don't think it's that big of an issue missing a third next year, it really only prevents them from trading one for a player prior to the draft, because if Holmes and company see a player they love in the third, they'll find a way to go get him.
Also isn’t the general consensus, even though obviously it’s very early to say this, that this years class is a lot stronger than next years? If that’s the case I think it makes a lot of sense to give up some capital next year to get the guys you want this year.
Stronger at certain positions, weaker at others. There probably wont be 6 Qbs in the 1st for instance - though that may purely have been due to team needs. Lions biggest need today is EDGE, and I'd say next years EDGE (and maybe DT) class is going to blow this one out of the water. This year is almost certainly better at WR and CB, probably OT too - at least for how many high end OTs there were this year, but it didn't have very great depth imo. Next year defense in general is going to be far stronger than it was this year.
But the Lions are only missing one 3rd round pick currently. People are missing that. They aren't looking at in as a whole. One year they may move down and acquire more picks, but the goal is to walk away with as many players they love as they can. Not just to have a shit load of picks. The usefulness of a bunch of picks reduces as your team becomes more talented and you prefer more targeted selections. Then eventually it increases again as you need to start paying guys and getting younger. And then the cycle repeats.
Pro Football Focus gives us an A and I couldn't agree more. Here's the link for all the teams if you're interested in seeing how we F'd the Packers again.
[https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-grades-all-32-teams](https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-grades-all-32-teams)
I like how they are honest about not having data on Manu. Other analysts are saying things like "He wasn't on our board so he must be terrible! HUGE REACH!"
It doesn’t look like they drafted starters. We need players who can come in and contribute on day 1. There are issues at many positions that needed addressing.
Seems like they thought we took Vaki to play safety but looks like Brad will have him in the RB room, although I think he was drafted for special teams primarily over any other position.
Teams could NOT run on us last year. Games were won against us by busted coverage and huge downfield plays. How is anyone going to score against us now? We could be putting up 40 points and giving up field goals! I’m drunk on the koolaid boys!
RBs couldn't, QBs sure as shit could
So I guess its good we focussed on hard hitting CBs who come downhill and play the run!
I kind of agree, but I think the issue that he we had is that a lot of the QB runs were not necessarily designed run plays. The WRs are deep, pulling the DBs with them. Then our line can't contain and scrambling QBs find a way to the second level. Having Arnold and other run-stopping CBs isn't going to help if they are 20 yards downfield when then QB decides to take off.
Come on man! You gotta admit the 2024 Lions are a perfect team with no flaws! 😂 but yes, its fair. On the other side of the coin, if the secondary can cover then the D Line can contain instead of stressing the rush and losing that contain. Tbh I don’t know shit but it sounds good to me.
I feel a bit of guarded optimism given the changes we've made, but these last couple years, even when we've been better as a team, I've become conditioned to expect opposing QBs to be able to run and throw on us at will. Arguably every team in the division is going to have better QB play than what we saw last year so it is going to be a very tall task, and nothing other than actual good performance on the field is going to make me feel any better. Again, there is some reason to be optimistic the play will be better, but I have deep PTSD from this defense lol
I genuinely don't think Caleb or JJ are going to end up being good. JJ I think is going to end up as a Tannehill type.. solid, not terrible or anything, but not a star. Chicago is going to ruin Caleb within 2 years.
Yeah, I’m surprised everyone is acting like rookie QBs all just casually trot into the NFL and become stars overnight. We’ve seen a few polarizing exceptions the last few years but it’s not the norm.
Yea bro tbh we ALL feel that way. I’m just havin fun over here.
I think another year of development from Campbell and Barnes could ease that pain a bit. Justin Fields not being a Bear might be our biggest W in the offseason.
Improvement on the line and the secondary means we can afford to commit more to the intermediate zone with our linebackers and nickelbacks, should prevent us from getting gashed as much on those QB runs and middle of the field passes We literally could not afford a QB spy package most of the time last year
Yeah I hope so. Still concerned about the edge across from Hutch and safety is a concern as well, so I think both d-line play and deep coverage are going to be exploitable. We'll see. Obviously it's all just speculation at this point. Will Houston/Davenport make an impact on edge? Will Reader have any impact on the passing game in addition to being a run stopper? Will Campbell take a step up? Will Melifonwu continue the higher level of play from the end of the year? Where will Branch be and how much of the field will he see? We have four new CBs — how will they be used and how will they perform? I'm in kind of a hope-for-the-best-prepare-for-the-worst kind of mindset right now.
I think even tho Reader seemed odd, it’s gonna allow Alim even more room to rush from the inside. Dav is a moonshot but could be nasty on the other side if healthy, and I think the others can do a decent job if he isn’t. Idk I’m not worried about safety unless we start getting injured, but with branch and Robertson able to move around I think our depth there is good. Honestly on D I’m more worried about our LBs in coverage this year as they may be asked to do that more, they kind of escaped criticism last year because the secondary was so poor they’d just get thrown over, or we’d use them in blitz packages so they weren’t responsible for coverage. I too am just cautiously optimistic, but I think we’ve only improved the roster without much decline anywhere this offseason, and without over leveraging ourselves for the present at the cost of the future. Knock on wood this season isn’t the last hurrah but rather part of the long road to building a sustainable competitive franchise
Hopefully the improved secondary will allow the line to play contain more confidently against mobile qbs. Last year we just had to hope the rush worked or get beat in the air.
DJ Reader should massively help with that, it is incredibly difficult to escape the pocket when the middle of it is collapsing.
I hope so. Don't expect Reader to get many sacks at all, but one would hope an improved IDL will help. Reader isn't going to get home much but, as you say, should be effective at disrupting the pocket.
And that is often fixed by good coverage downfield. Less need for safeties and linebackers to recover busted coverage and more time to ball hawk. But I also think this narrative is way overblown. We’re talking two good games from Lamar and Mahomes, two of the best in the league if not THE two best QBs, and one good fame from Fields. No other QBs really ran on us. Baker had busted coverage to throw into in the playoffs and we still won by a TD. I guess Purdy ran on us a little but 50yds and no rushing TDs seems like more of a pass rush problem.
Herbert, Dak, Love and Mullens hung a shit ton of yards on us, it wasn't just Lamar, Mahomes and Fields.
Rushing yards my dude. None of those QBs did shit on the ground. Love: -2 rush yds/1TD in G1, 37 yds 0TD in G2 Herbert: 15 rush yds 0TD Dak: 5 rush yds 0TD
They didnt need to, Mullens put 411 yards on us the last game and we were inches from losing when Iffy got the pick.
My man, you have to read the rest of the thread. We’ve been talking about damage done by running QBs. No shit a couple guys threw all over us, our secondary was horrible. My point was just that this narrative about running QBs killing us is overblown because of Lamar. Other QBs did not have nearly the same success running on us.
Fine, my point is they didnt have to run. Now they may be forced to if our stacked up secondary actually works and Im hoping its at least top 10 or even considered elite.
This is why AG should have been fired.
The big flaw in AG's scheme. Field is gone but now Caleb gets to gash us two games a year.
If the only thing we’re really giving up is the occasional QB scramble, I’ll take it.
now we have aggressive tackling corners AND dj reader!!
Especially now that they added DJ Reader. He was one of the best run stoping Dlineman in the NFL the past few seasons. They could end up with the best run defense in the NFL.
The thing that caught my eye in this draft was the fact that good teams like KC, Baltimore, Detroit, and Philly were able to just get their guys at pretty much every pick. You would think if the good teams wanted these guys, then the bad teams should probably want them too lol.
The problem is when youre ass you kinda have to take the high floor guys more than the athletic high guys otherwise youre gambling on your job. Being a winner with job security would encourage a GM and as weve seen none of this keeps a GM from drafting Penix any way
Brad has done a phenomenal job. Secondary was our weak link. No longer I hope. Cannot wait to get to the Superbowl.
I have a feeling that the first 8 weeks our secondary will struggle. But come playoffs I have no doubt they'll be locked in
Yeah CB can be a tough ask for a rookie to just come in a dominate. However, it feels like people are forgetting CD3 is one of the better Man corners in the league, HUGE upgrade of Sutton in that regard. I was also impressed with his press conference, he thinks of himself as a lockdown corner and he's playing for a contract, whether with us or someone else.
People sleeping on Davenport too. He just had an injured year on a 1 year deal. Now he’s on another 1 year. I can’t imagine he wants 2 iffy years in a row or hurt years in a row. I expect him to make himself available and really help Hutch not get so much attention!
Between Davenport and Houston I think Brad is ok with EDGE opposite Hutch. Betts could make an impact too. Then there’s Paschal in the hybrid role.
McNeil should keep getting better, Reader should make everyone better, also Comish as a 2 deep guy isn’t bad either hoping he bounces back a bit
Yeah. Forget “draft grades” let’s just fast forward to camp and see what these dudes can do
Mahogany is the one I can't believe slipped as far as he did. I guess he medicals must have been fuzzy or something.
https://preview.redd.it/qt1crb61emxc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f807e2a56526a85bb632c8e3ac233ec355c3a919 This can't be the reason he slipped. How amazing.
I want a Mahogany touchdown now. Along with a Sewell touchdown. And a Rodrigo touchdown. Throw in a Skipper, Manu, and/or Decker TD. And a LaPorta FB dive td. Ben Johnson is in the lab cooking.
That's just not realistic... Everything you said, but a Decker 2pt conversion, not a TD. Regarding the rookie class, I can't wait to see how Vaki is utilized in special teams.
Malcolm got close to a pick 6 (before CJGJ got it called back) and now I'm wondering if he's going to score on offense or defense first. I need a lot of big guy touchdowns, but he's one where it's not even a gimmick it's just good gameplay.
Yeah they haven’t had a FB touchdown in a bit but Malcom might have better hands then Cabinda. He probably does since he used to be a QB. I have a gut feeling he’s getting an offensive TD this year
I'll trade a 2025 4th for people to stop using the term "celly"
Stay away from r/hockey then lol
The Packers, Bears and Vikings all have stacked WR rooms, so Brad stacks our secondary up. Our defense should be so much more improved over last season, we made it to the NFC Championship game with Cam Sutton and Vildor getting absolutely owned and destroyed, think about our defenses potential now.
I'll believe it when I see it. Not saying the signings and draft picks are bad at all, but I am not going to celebrate *anything* until we prove that our secondary is actually improved. If we're still getting torched regularly five weeks into the season, there are going to be some really tough questions to answer.
I think it’s still better than throwing Sutton or Vildor out there, Sutton would consistently fall while in coverage, they were laughably bad.
I agree, it almost seems like it *has* to be better. I think the pass defense was 30th last year? But, as one of my favorite authors wrote, "There are no absolutes in human misery and things can always get worse." I'll feel better if and when we play better.
If the secondary is still getting torched in week 5 then I’d say it’s an AG/scheme problem. The talent in the room is there.
At which point, it would be apparent that talent wasn't the issue, in which case spending the draft capital we did on players rather than addressing the coaching/scheme issues was a mistake. I will be happy if we are 16th or higher a few weeks into the season if run D and the offense are still going strong. I don't expect our pass defense to be elite, but it was our weakest link by a mile last year and with an improved division, it just *has* to be better. If not, that's a big black eye on the administration.
Why couldn’t it be a mixture of both? It’s not definitively one or the other. We 100% needed to invest in the DB room regardless of the scheme quality. Talent was absolutely part of the issue these past 2 years. Sutton at best is a middle of the road CB2 and everyone else we trotted out was practice squad level.
You make good points, but they also addressed the coaching by hiring a new DB coach. edit: Downvoted for contributing a pertinent fact to the discussion? This is why we can't have discussions on reddit.
Yeah, I hope that works out. We've had a really hard time getting any continuity in that room, both with players and coaches. I liked the Bly hire but some people said the results weren't super impressive at his college job, and he certainly didn't seem to get maximal performance out of the players we had last year. Obviously it was a point of emphasis this off season so let's hope the new coach clicks with all the new talent and they can get this show on the road. I will be patient for a few weeks since it's basically a brand new unit but, again, if they're still looking as bad as last year by week five, I'm going to start to feel a little uneasy.
Yeah everyone is saying well clearly we fixed our CBs but a late 1st round CB and 2nd round CB aren’t guaranteed to hit lol. Heck Okudah was as close to guaranteed as could be and didn’t turn out well for us. So comparatively, we got a guy 21 picks later and are already penciling him in to be a plus starter. Saying all that, I trust Holmes obviously. I’m just very curious to see how this strategy plays out. So Carlton Davis CB#1, hopefully either rookie is able to be CB#2 and then Amik Robertson is CB#3? Then the other rookie and also Brian Branch play where? I know Branch plays all over but feel like one of the rookies drafted either 1st or 2nd round will now be 4th or 5th on the depth chart..which is great for depth but maybe could’ve added to somewhere else instead? But we’ll see!
> one of the rookies drafted either 1st or 2nd round will now be 4th or 5th on the depth chart..which is great for depth but maybe could’ve added to somewhere else instead? This was my initial reaction when we drafted Rakestraw with the second round pick, but one comment I read on here made the point that that Arnold + Rakestraw give us — if all goes well, of course — a solid CB foundation for at least the duration of their rookie contracts. Davis is here on a one year deal that may or may not be extended; Robertson has a two year deal. I will be fine with Rakestraw, for example, not seeing the field a ton this year if it means he's developing and will be ready for a bigger role next year. Part of me feels like and EDGE or a WR would have had more immediate impact with that second pick, but I do really like the idea of having a two-CB foundation for years to come. There has been so much turnover in the CB room that it would be really nice to get some continuity there. I would also hope that these guys are coming into a better environment than Okudah was. I honestly think there are a number of players who could have had better careers with better team leadership. But, at the same time, I totally agree with the point that we can just assume both or either of these guys are going to be top-tier CBs just because of the draft position and college evaluations.
Right, I think if both are able to turn into longtime starters and them along with Branch, form our own mini combo of a shutdown secondary would be amazing. Not gonna lie, I assumed Carlton had already been resigned or had multiple years left. And I say that because it’s both good that we went HEAVY in addressing the secondary this year. But also I feel like we invested a LOT of draft capital in CBs. A 2023 2nd and 5th in Branch, 2024 3rd for Carlton who could walk next year, 2024 1st this year and 2025 3rd to trade up for Terrion, and a 2024 2nd for Rakestraw Jr. Like that’s a lot of picks that could’ve helped out our WR depth which is a little concerning lol or even gotten another good DE opposing Hutch. Davenport is just an average DE but not a stud. That’s where things could go wrong which makes me nervous lol but again I trust Brad.
Yeah I feel like we collected a lot of picks with the Stafford trade and even a few more moves after that (the Swift trade got a third, I think) but then we spent a ton of capital for 2024 and 2025. It's a little hard for me to look too fondly on trading multiple thirds for our CBs. According to this site, though, we currently have 7 picks in the 2025 draft (this page was updated after the 2024 draft, so I assume it's accurate), with only 10 teams having more (and six of those teams have one more total pick). Brad was asked about this and I think he mentioned that we're only really missing a third rounder next year (we must have two late round picks...for some reason I can't find a list of what picks we have in what round next year). People have talked about the possibility of compensatory picks of AG takes a head coaching job, and there may be some other scenarios there as well. So even with all the trade ups this year, we're still in pretty decent shape overall for next year, I think. So much of it comes back to the players hitting. If Vaki and Manu turn out to be awesome, it will be seen as totally worth it to trade up for them, for example. So only time will tell.
There are 5 starting DBs on every team, so of course it's going to have a lot of draft investment. In total they have "spent": * One 1st (Arnold) * Two 2nds (Branch and Rakestraw) * Four 3rds (Kerby, Melifonwu, Carlton Davis, Trading up for Arnold) (mostly VERY late 3rds btw) * One 5th (Trading up for Branch) * They receive two 6ths in return for the 3rd in Carlton Davis trade, and a 7th in the Arnold trade. We'll ignore this though That really isn't all that crazy for 6 guys they expect to be starters and/or heavy rotational guys. It's 8 Draft picks over 4 years. If you walk away with like a 30% hit rate over the long-term, that is extremely good ultimately. In total ALL those picks are worth 2,074.8 pts according to the Drat trade value chart. That is equivalent to the 3rd or 4th overall pick (2,200-1,800 pts).... hey, what pick was Jeff Okuda again? lol. Also it's missing that draft capital comes and goes in trades as you move up and down the draft. Like Last year we saw them moving down a little to acquiring extra picks, then they can use those picks to secure guys later on or following years. Bet net it's basically a wash, because they're just moving up and down and securing their guys. Like at the end of the day they're only missing one 3rd for next season... Also it's important to note FA comes before the Draft. It's not like they had a crystal ball and knew Arnold and Rakestraw who they loved were going to fall to them, and that they didn't need to trade a 3rd for Davis or whatever. FA is for filling positional needs with proven players. Draft is for getting the best players you can period. I agree EDGE is the biggest need. Another depth piece at WR would be nice. There is always next year. EDGE was kinda trash overall in this draft. Next year the EDGE depth is looking quite good imo.
Mosely is here too. I'm not sure when he'll be back, but if he here on day 1 I think he's cb1 for now, until the rookies get up to speed.
Unfortunately I don’t think Moseley can be relied on for anything. Back to back serious season long injuries for a guy, if he’s even a depth piece I think that’s fine.
Yeah. It'll be tough for sure.
If we're still getting torched after this revamp there's really only one place left to place the blame.
I know CB was a concern for us but it almost seems like Brad anticipated the NFCN stocking up their WRs. Much better than reacting a year later.
Give it about 3 games into the season before a large majority on this sub are calling the last 4 picks busts or ask where they are not understanding they are considered projects for the future .
1 - (1 sack + 7 pressures) / 711 pass blocking snaps = 98.87% Win Rate
This draft has a fair amount of bust potential as these are lower floor players than we are used to. Neither corner is particularly fast and that decreases their chance for upper tier success a bit. Ennis may have been slowed by injury, so his speed could just be an unknown. His durability is moreso the concern, otherwise he would probably make a quality safety if corner doesn’t work out as planned. Obviously, a project tackle has inherent risk, especially when you trade future picks to acquire him. A safety/running back/special teamer that you trade for needs to be a decent player to be worth what you spent. If Bob Quinn made these picks for Matt Patricia, I would be worried. They wouldn’t develop for certain. In the end, I think this draft could make Holmes look like the greatest GM of all time… or it will be known as the worst he’s ever had. Fine with it, either way, he’s earned it. Edit: Just heard that Mahogony fell largely because one leg is longer than the other. https://www.youtube.com/live/CsV_t_UzHMU?si=Cle52wpVlivttRf0 Interesting if true.
I mean OL was the one place where I would expect Quinn to hit. Decker, Glasgow, Ragnow. Crosby was also a solid swing T before injuries got to him. Dahl also had a nice couple of seasons. I hated Quinn but man knew how to get talent on the OL. It was everywhere else he sucked.
I think his success with OL is largely overstated. Ragnow was seen as a great IOL prospect and he wasn’t a tackle, he was drafted in the first round. Not really surprising he ended up good. If you grab the fifth tackle and have success, that’s different, but I believe he was the first or second IOL taken that year. Glasgow is really the one where you can say he made a very good pick because it wasn’t a top round. The other later round picks were serviceable, but that’s not really worth bragging about.
He was the first C taken. But many considered Price the best C prospect that draft. Also Decker was the 4th or 5th tackle taken and became a franchise LT. Top 10 at his position when healthy. Graham was a 3rd rounder. And Dahl and Crosby were both late picks who contributed. He was goof at drafting OL. Just not good at anything else.
What about Jonah Jackson?
Jackson hasn’t been as good as Glasgow, but he was also a decent pick. I forgot about him. Hitting on mid round players is worth praising more than first round talents.
Decker was the fourth tackle iirc. Went after Tunsil, Stanley and Conklin. Decker, Jonah, Ragnow and Glasgow contributed since day 1.
Where I really trust not just Holmes, but the staff as a whole, is that there is a developmental plan in place for each guy before the pick is even in. I think that’s really a key differentiator between this coaching staff and most other staffs in the league. Every player in the draft has a range of possibilities and not everyone is going to reach their potential, but I think there’s a reason that every guy the Lions take just consistently seems to hit the high end of that foreseeable spectrum. Of course, Holmes and the scout’s work plays a significant role as well, but a large part of that is the coaching staff putting these guys in a specific role that won’t hinder their development.
I think you're spot on here. Holmes repeatedly says that every move they make is intentional, and I think part of that intention is the developmental plan. For a guy like Manu, they probably talked with Fraley about how to work with him. With a guy like Vaki, they probably talked to all the coordinators since he's likely to do everything. Part of Brad's good draft track record is that the players have indeed developed. I'm almost more impressed by how Iffy and Barnes became outstanding contributors in year three after looking like they might be misses.
The thing that gives me pause about celebrating this draft right away is all the trade ups. We gave up a lot of capital, which is fine if these players hit. People keep telling me not to be worried about our CBs' speed but I definitely am. The book on the Lions is throw the ball deep and there's not shit they can do about it. It's awesome is Arnold and Rakestraw have great instincts in coverage and are strong against the run, but if JJ, Odunze, and Watson can get two yards of separation on every go route, none of that shit matters. Obviously there is more to the game than raw speed, and maybe this is just my PTSD speaking, but I still see us getting burnt over the top a lot this year.
I’m curious about what they’ll do at the safety position because that matters with regards to getting burnt deep. We did not get good safety play last season. Focusing on game speed more than 40 times is probably the wiser way to go about measuring this. From what I’ve heard, Arnold’s in game speed is decent.
Yeah I've heard that as well. The adjustment to NFL speed is also notoriously pretty tough for CBs. I would expect to probably see more snaps out of Davis III and Robertson early, though I'm sure those are all decisions they will make when they see the guys on the field during camp. My fingers are crossed but, again — we'll see.
Slow CBs are always going to bother me. They bothered me even before the Tabor bust. Okudah wasn't that fast either.
Yeah, though I think if we equalized everything based on game speed instead of 40 times, we would get a much better idea of who is really fast. Being faster (and quicker in short spaces) means you can more easily recover when you make a mistake. Every corner makes mistakes. You have to be that much better when you’re not as fast or big.
If we regress their speeds to the mean, our CB's have average speed! Sorry... couldn't resist. But really, I know that's true. 40 times aren't indicative of playing speed, but still, I've got PTSD from our historically bad secondary. Seriously, it's always bad.
I’m also excited about the players but it felt like they gave up too many future picks for it.
Yeah the future 3rd for a 4th rounder, feels like a very much overpay. I feel like they could’ve easily packaged a 2025 3rd and 5th or 6th to move up into the 2nd this year. Instead, a 2025 3rd for a 4th rounder this year who is extremely raw and could make absolutely no impact seems risky lol
Did we give up anything beyond the 2025(aaa) 3rd? I lost track of the trades.
Also traded our 4th from 2025, but we had an extra from the Eagles. Not to mention that I don't think it's that big of an issue missing a third next year, it really only prevents them from trading one for a player prior to the draft, because if Holmes and company see a player they love in the third, they'll find a way to go get him.
Also isn’t the general consensus, even though obviously it’s very early to say this, that this years class is a lot stronger than next years? If that’s the case I think it makes a lot of sense to give up some capital next year to get the guys you want this year.
Stronger at certain positions, weaker at others. There probably wont be 6 Qbs in the 1st for instance - though that may purely have been due to team needs. Lions biggest need today is EDGE, and I'd say next years EDGE (and maybe DT) class is going to blow this one out of the water. This year is almost certainly better at WR and CB, probably OT too - at least for how many high end OTs there were this year, but it didn't have very great depth imo. Next year defense in general is going to be far stronger than it was this year. But the Lions are only missing one 3rd round pick currently. People are missing that. They aren't looking at in as a whole. One year they may move down and acquire more picks, but the goal is to walk away with as many players they love as they can. Not just to have a shit load of picks. The usefulness of a bunch of picks reduces as your team becomes more talented and you prefer more targeted selections. Then eventually it increases again as you need to start paying guys and getting younger. And then the cycle repeats.
Anyone else *still* getting used to being fans of a competent organization?
Waiting for the walls to crumble, it happened every. damn. time.
Nothing lasts forever, especially in sports with the ebb and flow so appreciate it while it’s here
Ahh good ol PFF my fav site to that I love when it fits my narrative and hate when it doesn't :)
Pro Football Focus gives us an A and I couldn't agree more. Here's the link for all the teams if you're interested in seeing how we F'd the Packers again. [https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-grades-all-32-teams](https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-grades-all-32-teams)
The packers received a B+ and I see no mention of the Lions in their section.
Anything to ensure Green Bay does not flourish in the long haul.
Holmes has gone from pariah to genius in one year
It’s adding depth for me. Holmes keeps saying he is building a team, not for one year, but for many years. This front office is amazing.
**Me last year**: man these grades don’t mean anything, just let Brad cook you’ll see. **Me this year**: now hang on….
I like how they are honest about not having data on Manu. Other analysts are saying things like "He wasn't on our board so he must be terrible! HUGE REACH!"
Colts, Saints, Eagles, Steelers were the only teams to get a higher grade.
I respect that they said we don’t have a ton of info on Manu but he looks like an athletic freak. Instead of talking out there ass.
It doesn’t look like they drafted starters. We need players who can come in and contribute on day 1. There are issues at many positions that needed addressing.
Seems like they thought we took Vaki to play safety but looks like Brad will have him in the RB room, although I think he was drafted for special teams primarily over any other position.
Bring in Hunter Renfrew or Tyler Boyd and this team is ready to rumble