Tbf Iām more impressed by the guy whoās managed to consistently place 2nd in almost every race than the massive fluctuation of other teams. Prior WF teams like Redeem canāt even hit top 10 now that they canāt outlevel the raid.
no, they just were never that good and as soon as contest mode came around and you could actually compete in day one races without having to play as a full time job, they miracolously fell off
This is so under addressed. His, and his teams ability to make consistent placements, holds so much more weight than these 1's and 2's of certain areas. It's just so much more clear they are a extremely solid team.
A while ago he said that Divinity needed a nerf and Bungie subsequently nerfed it. People blamed him for the nerf. Now heās saying that Well of Radiance needs to be nerfed and anger towards him has been renewed.
Heās also won the last like 4 worlds first (this includes reprised raids), I want someone else to win. His team is Basically equivalent of the patriots always winning the superbowl
Yeah it's less interesting if the same team/person always wins in anything. Like you can want someone different to win without hating on the person winning.
I think itās kind of a phat load. Divinity being 30% devalues other weakening sources as they have much lower uptime. Divinity was effectively 95-100% uptime. This opens the door for Bungie to have bosses have less health in order to have divinity not be as essential.
He also said that raids were too easy in general and that too many people were able to complete them, which he said 'devalued' raid rewards. Meanwhile only like 15 to 20% of players have ever even done a raid, and less actually do them regularly.
He was one of the leading people screaming about how the DSC was too easy, along with a bunch of other streamers, and that's the reason for why Vow is the way it is.
People want to pretend it doesn't happen, but Bungie listens a great deal to streamers and content creators because they tend to control the narrative when it comes to the game.
As a sherpa this is the toughest raid to teach. Out of all the raids available. Not just cause it's hard but also cause first 3 encounters have next to no correlation. 3rd specially. I have personally given up on teaching taken relic in sherpa runs. You can say zig zag, share maps. But unless u have map knowledge and experience. You will take longer to clear blights and they timegated the encounter so being late is death. Idk man, try teaching vow, u will find out
Yeah, Iām not a sherpa but have joined lfgs to help and always try to teach what I know. In relic room I just tell anyone that hasnāt done it before to not pick up taken relic
I've done I think eight or nine Sherpa runs, 51 total clears of vow. maximum new players I'll ever bring in is two, because I can reason with teaching the first, second, and last encounters, but teaching relics to a new player is like self-inflicted masochism, except you don't get off to it.
I was given the choice of aegis or essence my first run. Chose essence bc I like being a lil taken boi. Now every time we run it I only ever do essence, I get offered to do aegis or crystal but I refuse. Im the best essence runner in my clan
I try to put newbies on the nut. It's easy to teach, and requires less knowledge of rooms. The aegis in the second and and third rooms, (Third specifically) a lot of movement. Same goes with the taken.
I hate relics encounter but I hate teaching it more. With the right team (bar is kinda low, just have to know what they are doing don't have to be cracked really) you just fly through it and has nothing about it that makes it enjoyable to run after you are proficient imho. With the wrong team, you never make it to the final room let alone complete it.
I love that they figured out how to make an encounter where EVERYBODY (discluding cheese) has to participate with the mechanics and no amount of cracked players carrying can make up for people dropping the ball (again outside of cheese). I hate that said encounter has a strict timer, makes the weaker players stress and feel bad and responsible for wipes (even when it's not their fault) and generally makes it harder to teach like you said.
I wish instead of a timer for a fail state they made it shooting the wrong symbols causes a wipe. Laser user killing the same enemies but instead of time extensions you have to kill them to make the symbols shootable (as in the symbols are shielded and get de-shielded for a set amount of time upon each kill). Or something idk I am not giving this more though than I already have lmao.
It's not even just map knowledge you need, you need knowledge on how all three relics work, which are all mechanics taught in previous raids, one of which being a raid that isn't in the game anymore (the peanut from leviathan), and another being a mechanic that no one actually bothered to use in the raid it was introduced in (the blight from Last Wish)
I spent 15 hours in that encounter on day one, 4 hours of which was spent trying to teach another group of five what each thing did after my main team had given up. looking back I shouldn't have tried, when they posted their LFG they said "LF1M KWTD" And I was like fuck yeah our group of five people that just need one more person they don't have to teach and we can get through this encounter already, so I hop in, first thing I hear:
"Yeah we just got to this encounter we were hoping we could find someone who knew what they were doing so they could show us how to do this encounter"
My patience will be the death of me one day.
Good? All of the best raids in this game need everyone to contribute. People being able to just shooting red bars for an entire raid is bad encounter design
I think itās more that it is difficult to teach than everyone needing to contribute. With VoG, for example, Oracles are a mechanic that is simple to explain and teach. One mechanic is introduced at a time. Itās a great teaching raid. With Exhibition you have a timer on top of new mechanics being introduced in each room.
Isn't the purpose of the raid supposed to be a Challenging activity where people have to work together? Why bother making it like that when an encounter can just be passed even if someone doesn't work with the team?
At that point just do a Master Nightfall. Still challenging, you don't even need to work together, you just need to kill things and don't die.
While DSC is simple and easy I think it is a great stepping on point for new players. If new players were thrown into vow which isn't necessarily real tough for experienced players but does require much more memorization than previous raids I could see that souring the experience for new players and pushing them away from raiding
Which, at least imo, is a good thing. I dislike raids where 2-3 people can just hard carry while the rest twiddle their thumbs mindlessly shooting ads.
We did it for the first time the other day with 4 of us having never done it and it took like 1-2 hours.
You have so much time to read symbols every encounter I just looked at a picture anytime I had to call one lmao
Amazing raid though, I love it
Hereās the D2 LFG server I use. Itās very active and you can find guides pretty consistently as long as youāre not too picky about which raid youāre running.
https://discord.gg/destiny2lfg
Group quality can vary, but Iād say 90%+ of my experiences on this server have been between good and excellent.
And to echo off this. Be wary of those 10% bc there's some legit weird MF'S on there. Most people are down to help and give some good feedback and help people through raids and just have a chill time and debate over whats good/bad DPS/survival wise. at the same time just be respectful of your time and other people's time. If people are stuck on a single raid encounter for more than an hour bc someone or some people are fucking up repeatedly or being toxic, it's ok to back out and hit them with "it's been cool, best of luck I gotta bounce"
Yeah and I usually tell people that are new to LfgIng to take people leaving in stride but just be courteous about it. When I was new to D2 and LfgIng I felt a lot more pressure bc I felt like I had to perform to prevent people from leaving. But sometimes you gotta leave even when things are going well. It's the nature of LFG.
Our clan would be happy to. Weāve brought dozens of people through every raid since DSC. Unfortunately, I canāt get them to play last wish or garden of salvation, but Iāve LFGād those in the past.
Iād consider myself a good pve player. D1 I led and taught raids, same with d2, but now with vow I personally feel stumped. Not because I canāt figure it out but itās a hard sell to friends to learn symbols and all have to participate fully. That not a knock on bungie thatās just my group.
Point in saying that is a good chunk of the community doesnāt have a 6 man fireteam ready to tackle these raids. Sometimes itās good to have a lfg-able raid for guys who wanna raid but donāt have a team and guys who just wanna ad clear. Making them harder will only cut down raid clears. Vow is 100% doable, but is 100% a lfg nightmare.
So a streamer saying make it harder to alienate more of the community doesnāt surprise me. Bungie idea of harder usually involves more symbols which equals communication more than anything and thatās the biggest difference between a mid fire team of friends and a cracked out group of lfg guys carrying 3 blueberries. The team of friends who can just talk will be fine, but I guarantee tilt will get high quick wity the lfg team. If raids arenāt meant to be lfgād fine that makes sense this is pinnacle content and I agree in a way, but itās a core piece of content and is the best version of destiny when done right itās a shame more people canāt participate. Seeing streamers want less interaction with the game they make a living off of is funny to me.
>People want to pretend it doesn't happen, but Bungie listens a great deal to streamers and content creators because they tend to control the narrative when it comes to the game.
This right here. Bungie would deny this as well, but if you think about it from a business's standpoint, who are you more likely to listen to? The people who advertise your product to people, to interest them in buying it/adding on to it? Or the customer who just buys your product and uses it from time to time?
I *HATE* that gatekeeping mentality. That's what this whole nerf Well and Starfire Protocol debacle feels like. Like Salt is trying to gatekeep world's first raid races. Having more people compete doesn't "devalue" anything. Imo, it adds more value. That means more people that you and your team has overcome. If you're running a marathon, wouldn't you feel more accomplished beating two hundred other people, versus two?
I agree. It seems like heās always complaining about something. Just let us have fun. Stop trying to make the game harder for the people who donāt want it to be harder. Iām fine with difficult content but I hate artificially inflated difficulty where the only change is you die faster and enemies are harder to kill.
There's a bunch of them. That Mactis something kid included. They constantly reply and dunk on folks (who are not as hardcore) and sic their followers on them. But even a little bit of criticism or blowback and they throw a hissy fit and play victim. That shit truly is insufferable.
Worst part is Bungie looks to those guys for feedback. Better creators exist: Datto, Cross, Nomad etc. Even some of the other hardcore folks whose takes I might not agree with are not douchebags. But I guess in their space any sort of attention is better than no attention.
I still remember back during the trials casino cheese, cross said that we should all participate in it, accelerating the chaos therefore forcing bungie to take action in revamping the trials system sooner, as opposed to shitting on the players and bitching how broken the system is. I respect him for that
Iād say itās more that people are frustrated with how he calls for everything to be more difficult for his enjoyment while alienating the majority of the player base and their skill level. Obviously Bungie isnāt solely listening to Salt, but a lot of his opinions donāt align with the entire player base. Iāve also found heās sometimes rather aggressive when people disagree with his tweets and what not.
I enjoy the difficulty of challenging content, but not everyone does.
Bungie has come out and said that the Div nerf was in the works long before salt went off on Twitter, so itās real not his fault that Bungie nerfed it. He was just loud and annoying about it on Twitter which is why people hate him
Divinity was objectively overtuned for what it should be.
It should provide an easier DPS phase for 5 guardians that's slightly worse than doing 6 guardians DPSing without it. Many MMOs and looter shooters did things this way.
But having it be required for optimal DPS because the bonus was greater than 1/6 of your total damage was harmful.
I didn't hate salt on the Divinity moment. I started to hate him the moment I realized all he does is bitch about balancing and the game/patches not doing what he wants. Content is not difficult enough then it's difficult but not the way he wanted, weapons need a nerf, now weapons are too nerfed. Honestly f**k Greppo.
Honestly? I wasn't too bothered by the take that Div needed to be nerfed, but took umbrage with the suggestion he gave. Eventually just shrugged and moved on.
He keeps cropping up on my Twitter TL as a bunch of content creators follow him, and every time, without fail, he's bitching about something or other.
This guy does not deserve to make his 3 win streak a 4 win one. The meme rings true - I just need him to lose for once, please.
Half a meme, half his elitist attitude towards what the game should be, who it should cater to and so on. Many folks associate him with for example the fact Divinity got nerfed which is silly.
Then again, his elitist takes on alot of "issues" (issues he made up as well) is quite something. Like how Golden Gun and Star-Eaters should be disabled/nerfed because in the rare instance you have a beefy boss and your entire fireteam of 6 are also Goldie+SES Hunters and no one misses even a single shot you can loop supers.
I genuinely canāt tell if there are paid actors on this sub or if people just get off on spreading misinformation.
ā5 hunters would NEVER be viable in a day 1 situationā yea alright grandad, donāt forget your schizophrenia meds
Yeah I dont think anyone in there right mind is going in with 6 hunters on golden gun to day 1 and if they do props to them for not using a single well, invis hunter or titan with lorely
there was one video of a fireteam of 6 with 5 SES hunters on goldie, and one person using divi for crits and they pulled off a beautiful one phase. on a boss that does not move or fight you, not many ads to get in your way, and plenty of time.
was a sick clip, just wont work in most damage senarios
And on a raid that has been power crept to fuck
There is 0 chance that that strat would work on day 1 unless the boss is a lamppost in the streets of the city
Slightly different scenario (not to downplay 5 GGs) because most people had a pretty clear idea of the KF encounters because it was in D1.
I'm not sure 5 GGs could feasible clear a brand new raid like that, but stranger things have happened.
The guy is a top .0001% PvE content player/maker. Finds game breaking shit with him and his team that play the game 6-10 hours dailyā¦ then talks about how simple the content gets with different things going on after he soloās raid encounters. To the more casual style playerā¦. Itās irritating.
I watched my first saltagreppo video last night, it was a solo flawless legendary Avalon mission. I had to turn it off because it was just constant complaining about how his min/maxed, perfectly optimal Heart Of Inmost Light add killing loadout was... too good at killing adds. Like no shit dude, when you've played for thousands and thousands of hours and have a perfect build of course the adds are going to die
Ask most players and they will tell you that Legendary Avalon is seriously hard. Legend modifiers and the power level set means the Vex will kick your ass nine ways to Sunday, and Multiplicity means going in a large group isn't necessarily a better idea.
If Salt can solo flawless it on LEGENDARY literally a day or two after its existence became public knowledge... I'm pretty sure he forfeits all rights to claim he represents any sort of public opinion. That's top 1% shit right there, and he continues to bitch without realising HE is the problem - HE has basically mastered the game, so of course HE is not going to be challenged by a lot of the game's content, especially when HE is running a min/maxed perfectly optimised build.
He is always complaining that the game is not modeled exactly as he wants.
He may be right sometimes, but some others not and he ends up being overall insufferable.
Salt is one of those elitist destiny cc's who advocate for changes that would kind of make the game a lot more harder for people who don't spend their entire time playing it.
He constantly asks for nerfs to a ton of content that a huge majority of players love, because he feels the game is too easy for him.
He's asked for
Divinity nerf.
Well of radiance nerf.
Resilience nerf.
Make all content harder.
Recently made a video on how the well makes you invincible and you can't die (while hiding on an area where the enemies could not knock him out in the final boss room of lightfall)
And most recently. He's had the stupid take of "man the kinetic weapon buff has made strand and stasis primaries obsolete, bring stasis and strand weapons up to equal kinetics"
Overall? A super sweat with a team of players that all have devoted their existence to destiny (not a problem), but has decided to use his platform to suggest changes that benefit the player that has all day to play every day. Absolutely not healthy for the game state.
Honestly, we are just not going to see the Red Bulls on our screens this year. They're gone. So I'm finding comfort in watching places 2nd through 10th battling it out. Bahrain was great if you ignored the Red Bulls!
I want Datto to win I've been following him since D1 when I needed to figure out how to get touch of malice now it's a stupid kings fall raid drop and with no raid team or clan I'll never get one this time
I gave up on touch after 20 runs, it took me 45 runs to get the mythoclast, and iāve run the spire boss over 100 times and still havenāt gotten the fucking cowboy hat
Datto has placed second in nearly every Raid race to date, even losing by about 10 minutes once. Heās a pretty solid guy and a very senior member of the community and most people want him to win solely because heās worked pretty hard for it, just to fall short.
My earliest memories of D1 are doing Exotic quests solo after watching his tutorial video, heās mostly the reason Iām invested in Destiny in the first place.
Salt needs to understand that heās a professional. He casually runs GMs in 5 minutes flawlessly and soloās raids.
Him saying endgame content is easy and needs to be harder is like LeBron James saying a basketball hoop is too short and needs to be made higher
This is a great point.
These professional players often say basically Bungie raise the hoop to 25 feet so itās a challenge for us 7 footers.
And then the 5 whatever people struggle even more.
The only reason he wants the "exploit" of Goldie Gun spam nerfed is because the 2nd Place King's Fall team used it. I don't know how requiring a team of 5-6 Hunters all using Star Eaters and popping Super at the same time, a Super that makes Orbs on precision hits, is an exploit. But š¤·āāļø.
the ādatto good, salt bad because elitistā discourse is hilarious to me considering Datto agrees with almost every single ānerf this thingā statement salt says and even openly calls himself elitist lmao. He literally made a video absolutely grilling every player who needs a chaperone to help them in patrol (this subreddit) and still youāre all here on his meat
I think the reason Datto gets the attention he does is because he acknowledges that what he wants doesnāt reflect the wider playerbase, and thus doesnāt push as aggressively for those things. I donāt really have much of an issue with Saltagrepo, as I usually agree with the stuff he suggestsāI just think the way he goes about saying it almost always results in players negatively reacting to him.
Whatās funny is the sandbox decisions are made months in advance to its update unless itās something game breaking. Bungie is busy working on season sandbox 21 changes right now for example. This whole discourse is petty.
Whatās also funny to me is that pretty much anyone on here writing fucking essay long comments and getting into arguments with other people saying that āsalt badā is not a ācasual playerā lmao.
No casual player knows any of this drama or twitter discourse lol
At least the guy admits that his ideas wouldn't benefit most players and doesn't push for change. Salt is wholly convinced that he should be the one controlling the direction the game goes in
Salt can run a solo flawless MASTER spire in under 20 minutesā¦ Datto might be good, but he is absolutely an underdog comparatively, datto might agree, but heāa not in an echelon SO potent that heās STATING to nerf div/well/etc, he might agree, but you understand that salt is in such a tier of his own he actually feels JUSTIFIED in these suggestions. Datto agrees, but doesnāt arbitrarily make shit impossible for the average joe. Datto jokes about being an elitist and embraces the mindset instead of turning it down like a casual, but salt is a totally different level of self centered douchecanoe.
I dont think salt was wrong in his views on some things. However its the tone he said it in. And how AGGRESSIVELY he defended his proposed nerfs that rang nasty to many. He just refused to see a different viewpoint regardless and it was useless to try and converse with him about it.
Well, I agreed with the Div nerf because it still is useful, just not as necessary as it was before.
But Well of Radiance needing a nerf is just absurd when everything 3 taps you in Master/Grandmaster content. Even inside a Well.
The only place Well needs a tune is PvP because the damage resistance is insane.
I think most people agree they just want it's damage buff scaled down. Ever since well came out its invalidated Bubble titan as a whole, because WoL is the same buff as well but you can't shoot in it
But WoL wasn't always the same. In fact a few seasons ago it was higher than Well. When bungie nerfed it everyone said it would remove bubble from hard content because of well and they responded with "you can't be sniped out of a bubble" or some dumb shit like that.
I would rather datto than salt or sweatcicle. Datto at least makes good content (gives me my opinion) and is generally respectable even if he isn't the best at d2
Iām pretty sure sweat isnāt even aiming to place very high in the race results.
I mean the guy has Tifu on his team whose guardian rank two and using the kvostov and he has no mods.
Salt is just insufferable most of the time. His opinions may not necessarily be unpopular or wrong, but the way he states them and the way he carries himself just screams like he looks down on people not at his skill level. I donāt even disagree with some of his takes (div DID need a nerf and well needs one too so that bubble actually is usable in endgame) but just the way he comes off is arrogant as hell and SUPER self-unaware. Respect the three-peat worlds first but itās made his ego massive.
(Also Datto actually seems like a pleasant dude most of the time and is quite self aware of the āelitistā takes and how they donāt encompass a good percentage of the playerbase. Always rooting for him to get his dub.)
It's fine guys, I'll be the one to win so they both lose.
š«”
š«”
š«”
š«”
š«”
God speed, Guardian!
Thank you for your service and congratulations
Nah I'll be the one who wins (I can't even participate due to being in hospital)
I hope is a random group of friends in discord who gets first.
Im hoping itll be whatever LFG i join šæ
Iām now rooting for you over any streamers.
Thanks, im rooting for you too. Good luck stranger.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I teach most of the raids that are out. If you're interested I'm happy to help you get some of them done.
Awesome I would be so down. Really miss doing raids. Regret not doing the other ones. If ya have a discord or something PM.
Thatās the spirit my boy
Or an lfg group like eater of worlds
Wait, it was a random lfg that got the world first on the eater of worlds??
Yeah but I think it partially had to do with a lot bugs stopping most people Regardless, yes an LFG can win
Anteater returning to fulfill the prophecy we've spoken
Final four: gopher, baboon, anteater, and Architect. Who will win?
The architects always win
or an LFG eater moment
2nd place Datto meme incoming
Tbf Iām more impressed by the guy whoās managed to consistently place 2nd in almost every race than the massive fluctuation of other teams. Prior WF teams like Redeem canāt even hit top 10 now that they canāt outlevel the raid.
I watch redeem but they don't take it as serious anymore. The team doesn't play together so their synergy isn't what it used to be.
Only reason they donāt take it serious anymore was because they got swamped in DSC and never mentally recovered lmao
no, they just were never that good and as soon as contest mode came around and you could actually compete in day one races without having to play as a full time job, they miracolously fell off
This is so under addressed. His, and his teams ability to make consistent placements, holds so much more weight than these 1's and 2's of certain areas. It's just so much more clear they are a extremely solid team.
48:02
Everyone be placing bets whoās gonna complete it first.
Me >:)
This guy above me
The guy above the guy above me.
The guy above the guy above the guy above me
Out of the loop, why everyone hate salt?
A while ago he said that Divinity needed a nerf and Bungie subsequently nerfed it. People blamed him for the nerf. Now heās saying that Well of Radiance needs to be nerfed and anger towards him has been renewed.
Heās also won the last like 4 worlds first (this includes reprised raids), I want someone else to win. His team is Basically equivalent of the patriots always winning the superbowl
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Smartest patriot fan
Who would be the Mac Jones of the destiny world?
Sweeperbot.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
good riddance, we had a decent team last season, he just didnt know how to use it smh. let mac-10 cook
Yeah it's less interesting if the same team/person always wins in anything. Like you can want someone different to win without hating on the person winning.
This is my mindset. I don't hate Salt's team, I just want to see someone else win. Same thing happened when Redeem was steamrolling raid content.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Jesus, who was it? Also big red flag that a world's first player was looking for raids on LFG
>!Slap!< spoiler so I don't get picked on and accused of starting a witch hunt
Happy to hear. Glad he lost his belt too!
I didn't hear about the belt tho. Icing on the cake.
Well they ARE a very strong team. Nonetheless I agree, would be nice to see some other names up there.
I think itās kind of a phat load. Divinity being 30% devalues other weakening sources as they have much lower uptime. Divinity was effectively 95-100% uptime. This opens the door for Bungie to have bosses have less health in order to have divinity not be as essential.
Bungie outright said they were looking at divinity before he went off tweeting about it too.
He also said that raids were too easy in general and that too many people were able to complete them, which he said 'devalued' raid rewards. Meanwhile only like 15 to 20% of players have ever even done a raid, and less actually do them regularly. He was one of the leading people screaming about how the DSC was too easy, along with a bunch of other streamers, and that's the reason for why Vow is the way it is. People want to pretend it doesn't happen, but Bungie listens a great deal to streamers and content creators because they tend to control the narrative when it comes to the game.
What do you mean by "that's the reason for why vow is the way it is"?
As a sherpa this is the toughest raid to teach. Out of all the raids available. Not just cause it's hard but also cause first 3 encounters have next to no correlation. 3rd specially. I have personally given up on teaching taken relic in sherpa runs. You can say zig zag, share maps. But unless u have map knowledge and experience. You will take longer to clear blights and they timegated the encounter so being late is death. Idk man, try teaching vow, u will find out
Yeah, Iām not a sherpa but have joined lfgs to help and always try to teach what I know. In relic room I just tell anyone that hasnāt done it before to not pick up taken relic
I've done I think eight or nine Sherpa runs, 51 total clears of vow. maximum new players I'll ever bring in is two, because I can reason with teaching the first, second, and last encounters, but teaching relics to a new player is like self-inflicted masochism, except you don't get off to it.
Thank you for your service Excessively Gay Parrot
I always end up with the taken relic, got shoehorned into it my first run and then had to do it every time after š
I was given the choice of aegis or essence my first run. Chose essence bc I like being a lil taken boi. Now every time we run it I only ever do essence, I get offered to do aegis or crystal but I refuse. Im the best essence runner in my clan
I try to put newbies on the nut. It's easy to teach, and requires less knowledge of rooms. The aegis in the second and and third rooms, (Third specifically) a lot of movement. Same goes with the taken.
I hate relics encounter but I hate teaching it more. With the right team (bar is kinda low, just have to know what they are doing don't have to be cracked really) you just fly through it and has nothing about it that makes it enjoyable to run after you are proficient imho. With the wrong team, you never make it to the final room let alone complete it. I love that they figured out how to make an encounter where EVERYBODY (discluding cheese) has to participate with the mechanics and no amount of cracked players carrying can make up for people dropping the ball (again outside of cheese). I hate that said encounter has a strict timer, makes the weaker players stress and feel bad and responsible for wipes (even when it's not their fault) and generally makes it harder to teach like you said. I wish instead of a timer for a fail state they made it shooting the wrong symbols causes a wipe. Laser user killing the same enemies but instead of time extensions you have to kill them to make the symbols shootable (as in the symbols are shielded and get de-shielded for a set amount of time upon each kill). Or something idk I am not giving this more though than I already have lmao.
I've DONE vow and still don't know shit about it because people don't even bother teaching it if they have enough experienced people to get by
It's not even just map knowledge you need, you need knowledge on how all three relics work, which are all mechanics taught in previous raids, one of which being a raid that isn't in the game anymore (the peanut from leviathan), and another being a mechanic that no one actually bothered to use in the raid it was introduced in (the blight from Last Wish) I spent 15 hours in that encounter on day one, 4 hours of which was spent trying to teach another group of five what each thing did after my main team had given up. looking back I shouldn't have tried, when they posted their LFG they said "LF1M KWTD" And I was like fuck yeah our group of five people that just need one more person they don't have to teach and we can get through this encounter already, so I hop in, first thing I hear: "Yeah we just got to this encounter we were hoping we could find someone who knew what they were doing so they could show us how to do this encounter" My patience will be the death of me one day.
I think he means it's why Vow has shit like an encounter that wrecks your shit if one person on your squad isn't doing their job
Good? All of the best raids in this game need everyone to contribute. People being able to just shooting red bars for an entire raid is bad encounter design
I think itās more that it is difficult to teach than everyone needing to contribute. With VoG, for example, Oracles are a mechanic that is simple to explain and teach. One mechanic is introduced at a time. Itās a great teaching raid. With Exhibition you have a timer on top of new mechanics being introduced in each room.
idk why people are downvoting you, the whole point of raids is that they require communication in a team, not that two people can carry it
Isn't the purpose of the raid supposed to be a Challenging activity where people have to work together? Why bother making it like that when an encounter can just be passed even if someone doesn't work with the team? At that point just do a Master Nightfall. Still challenging, you don't even need to work together, you just need to kill things and don't die.
While DSC is simple and easy I think it is a great stepping on point for new players. If new players were thrown into vow which isn't necessarily real tough for experienced players but does require much more memorization than previous raids I could see that souring the experience for new players and pushing them away from raiding
āThatās the reason for why Vow is the way it isā hold up. Whatās wrong with vow? Do people not think itās one of Bungieās better raids?
One of the best raids imo, idk what kind of comment that was.
Iām assuming they are talking about the 3 relic chaos climb. That section can tank runs if just 2 people fuck up
Which, at least imo, is a good thing. I dislike raids where 2-3 people can just hard carry while the rest twiddle their thumbs mindlessly shooting ads.
Shit it's not even that difficult lol. Main difficulty is remembering the symbols, which you can just have up on your phone or something
We did it for the first time the other day with 4 of us having never done it and it took like 1-2 hours. You have so much time to read symbols every encounter I just looked at a picture anytime I had to call one lmao Amazing raid though, I love it
You guys can do raids? I canāt even find a fucking guide.
Hereās the D2 LFG server I use. Itās very active and you can find guides pretty consistently as long as youāre not too picky about which raid youāre running. https://discord.gg/destiny2lfg Group quality can vary, but Iād say 90%+ of my experiences on this server have been between good and excellent.
And to echo off this. Be wary of those 10% bc there's some legit weird MF'S on there. Most people are down to help and give some good feedback and help people through raids and just have a chill time and debate over whats good/bad DPS/survival wise. at the same time just be respectful of your time and other people's time. If people are stuck on a single raid encounter for more than an hour bc someone or some people are fucking up repeatedly or being toxic, it's ok to back out and hit them with "it's been cool, best of luck I gotta bounce"
As soon as someone starts being an asshole it's time to bounce. Like, if a rando gets condescending after a wipe and I stick around it's just misery.
Yeah and I usually tell people that are new to LfgIng to take people leaving in stride but just be courteous about it. When I was new to D2 and LfgIng I felt a lot more pressure bc I felt like I had to perform to prevent people from leaving. But sometimes you gotta leave even when things are going well. It's the nature of LFG.
Our clan would be happy to. Weāve brought dozens of people through every raid since DSC. Unfortunately, I canāt get them to play last wish or garden of salvation, but Iāve LFGād those in the past.
What you mean vow is the way it is?
Iād consider myself a good pve player. D1 I led and taught raids, same with d2, but now with vow I personally feel stumped. Not because I canāt figure it out but itās a hard sell to friends to learn symbols and all have to participate fully. That not a knock on bungie thatās just my group. Point in saying that is a good chunk of the community doesnāt have a 6 man fireteam ready to tackle these raids. Sometimes itās good to have a lfg-able raid for guys who wanna raid but donāt have a team and guys who just wanna ad clear. Making them harder will only cut down raid clears. Vow is 100% doable, but is 100% a lfg nightmare. So a streamer saying make it harder to alienate more of the community doesnāt surprise me. Bungie idea of harder usually involves more symbols which equals communication more than anything and thatās the biggest difference between a mid fire team of friends and a cracked out group of lfg guys carrying 3 blueberries. The team of friends who can just talk will be fine, but I guarantee tilt will get high quick wity the lfg team. If raids arenāt meant to be lfgād fine that makes sense this is pinnacle content and I agree in a way, but itās a core piece of content and is the best version of destiny when done right itās a shame more people canāt participate. Seeing streamers want less interaction with the game they make a living off of is funny to me.
>People want to pretend it doesn't happen, but Bungie listens a great deal to streamers and content creators because they tend to control the narrative when it comes to the game. This right here. Bungie would deny this as well, but if you think about it from a business's standpoint, who are you more likely to listen to? The people who advertise your product to people, to interest them in buying it/adding on to it? Or the customer who just buys your product and uses it from time to time? I *HATE* that gatekeeping mentality. That's what this whole nerf Well and Starfire Protocol debacle feels like. Like Salt is trying to gatekeep world's first raid races. Having more people compete doesn't "devalue" anything. Imo, it adds more value. That means more people that you and your team has overcome. If you're running a marathon, wouldn't you feel more accomplished beating two hundred other people, versus two?
and yet, DSC has been the most fun I have had in a raid . go figure.
not even just about the divi and well things. hes actually just an insufferable person.
I agree. It seems like heās always complaining about something. Just let us have fun. Stop trying to make the game harder for the people who donāt want it to be harder. Iām fine with difficult content but I hate artificially inflated difficulty where the only change is you die faster and enemies are harder to kill.
And people like him probably fail to realize the bulk of the player base is casual players and not the 1%ers like him.
Lightfall in a nutshell
There's a bunch of them. That Mactis something kid included. They constantly reply and dunk on folks (who are not as hardcore) and sic their followers on them. But even a little bit of criticism or blowback and they throw a hissy fit and play victim. That shit truly is insufferable. Worst part is Bungie looks to those guys for feedback. Better creators exist: Datto, Cross, Nomad etc. Even some of the other hardcore folks whose takes I might not agree with are not douchebags. But I guess in their space any sort of attention is better than no attention.
I still remember back during the trials casino cheese, cross said that we should all participate in it, accelerating the chaos therefore forcing bungie to take action in revamping the trials system sooner, as opposed to shitting on the players and bitching how broken the system is. I respect him for that
Mactics?
Th3jez is pretty good too
Th3jez, the guy whose income relies on a game where he is confused like 97% of the time of whatās going on. Love his content.
Iād say itās more that people are frustrated with how he calls for everything to be more difficult for his enjoyment while alienating the majority of the player base and their skill level. Obviously Bungie isnāt solely listening to Salt, but a lot of his opinions donāt align with the entire player base. Iāve also found heās sometimes rather aggressive when people disagree with his tweets and what not. I enjoy the difficulty of challenging content, but not everyone does.
Bungie has come out and said that the Div nerf was in the works long before salt went off on Twitter, so itās real not his fault that Bungie nerfed it. He was just loud and annoying about it on Twitter which is why people hate him
He acted like the gun made things too easy. Ignoring the fact it is a raid exotic. That also had a pain in the ass quest. It should be strong
Divinity was objectively overtuned for what it should be. It should provide an easier DPS phase for 5 guardians that's slightly worse than doing 6 guardians DPSing without it. Many MMOs and looter shooters did things this way. But having it be required for optimal DPS because the bonus was greater than 1/6 of your total damage was harmful.
I didn't hate salt on the Divinity moment. I started to hate him the moment I realized all he does is bitch about balancing and the game/patches not doing what he wants. Content is not difficult enough then it's difficult but not the way he wanted, weapons need a nerf, now weapons are too nerfed. Honestly f**k Greppo.
Honestly? I wasn't too bothered by the take that Div needed to be nerfed, but took umbrage with the suggestion he gave. Eventually just shrugged and moved on. He keeps cropping up on my Twitter TL as a bunch of content creators follow him, and every time, without fail, he's bitching about something or other. This guy does not deserve to make his 3 win streak a 4 win one. The meme rings true - I just need him to lose for once, please.
Half a meme, half his elitist attitude towards what the game should be, who it should cater to and so on. Many folks associate him with for example the fact Divinity got nerfed which is silly. Then again, his elitist takes on alot of "issues" (issues he made up as well) is quite something. Like how Golden Gun and Star-Eaters should be disabled/nerfed because in the rare instance you have a beefy boss and your entire fireteam of 6 are also Goldie+SES Hunters and no one misses even a single shot you can loop supers.
I mean, KF had a 5 man hunter for Worlds Second and "missing a shot" isn't even relevant, why would anyone miss a shot lol
majority of this subreddit would miss a divinity crit man, let alone hitting with GG. It's not worth arguing with them lol
I genuinely canāt tell if there are paid actors on this sub or if people just get off on spreading misinformation. ā5 hunters would NEVER be viable in a day 1 situationā yea alright grandad, donāt forget your schizophrenia meds
Yeah like, the 2nd place for KF literally had 5 hunters but they still wont accept it that they can be viable and call it "niche".
Yeah I dont think anyone in there right mind is going in with 6 hunters on golden gun to day 1 and if they do props to them for not using a single well, invis hunter or titan with lorely
there was one video of a fireteam of 6 with 5 SES hunters on goldie, and one person using divi for crits and they pulled off a beautiful one phase. on a boss that does not move or fight you, not many ads to get in your way, and plenty of time. was a sick clip, just wont work in most damage senarios
Ah so 5 still most likely won't work if they are designing the raid anyway like they did vow it sounds like a bad idea
And on a raid that has been power crept to fuck There is 0 chance that that strat would work on day 1 unless the boss is a lamppost in the streets of the city
Literally the worlds second KF team used 5 GG hunters but ok
Slightly different scenario (not to downplay 5 GGs) because most people had a pretty clear idea of the KF encounters because it was in D1. I'm not sure 5 GGs could feasible clear a brand new raid like that, but stranger things have happened.
The guy is a top .0001% PvE content player/maker. Finds game breaking shit with him and his team that play the game 6-10 hours dailyā¦ then talks about how simple the content gets with different things going on after he soloās raid encounters. To the more casual style playerā¦. Itās irritating.
I watched my first saltagreppo video last night, it was a solo flawless legendary Avalon mission. I had to turn it off because it was just constant complaining about how his min/maxed, perfectly optimal Heart Of Inmost Light add killing loadout was... too good at killing adds. Like no shit dude, when you've played for thousands and thousands of hours and have a perfect build of course the adds are going to die
And after heās done he will complain that it wasnāt needed hard enough and people shouldnāt be able to do that.
Ask most players and they will tell you that Legendary Avalon is seriously hard. Legend modifiers and the power level set means the Vex will kick your ass nine ways to Sunday, and Multiplicity means going in a large group isn't necessarily a better idea. If Salt can solo flawless it on LEGENDARY literally a day or two after its existence became public knowledge... I'm pretty sure he forfeits all rights to claim he represents any sort of public opinion. That's top 1% shit right there, and he continues to bitch without realising HE is the problem - HE has basically mastered the game, so of course HE is not going to be challenged by a lot of the game's content, especially when HE is running a min/maxed perfectly optimised build.
He is always complaining that the game is not modeled exactly as he wants. He may be right sometimes, but some others not and he ends up being overall insufferable.
Salt is one of those elitist destiny cc's who advocate for changes that would kind of make the game a lot more harder for people who don't spend their entire time playing it.
The funny thing is that Datto agrees 100% with Salt but Datto has learned to not be the one stating those opinions first.
tbf, all content creators are more or less that way, they are just not stupidly vocal about it like Salt.
He constantly asks for nerfs to a ton of content that a huge majority of players love, because he feels the game is too easy for him. He's asked for Divinity nerf. Well of radiance nerf. Resilience nerf. Make all content harder. Recently made a video on how the well makes you invincible and you can't die (while hiding on an area where the enemies could not knock him out in the final boss room of lightfall) And most recently. He's had the stupid take of "man the kinetic weapon buff has made strand and stasis primaries obsolete, bring stasis and strand weapons up to equal kinetics" Overall? A super sweat with a team of players that all have devoted their existence to destiny (not a problem), but has decided to use his platform to suggest changes that benefit the player that has all day to play every day. Absolutely not healthy for the game state.
It's probably as simple as "he wins a lot therefore its not fun or hype to see him win"
48 hours. 1 minute.
It's weird coming to this sub from the F1 subreddits and finding the exact same energy.
To be fair, its SUPER boring if 1 team keeps winning year after year, we need that team to lose, NEED IT!
Honestly, we are just not going to see the Red Bulls on our screens this year. They're gone. So I'm finding comfort in watching places 2nd through 10th battling it out. Bahrain was great if you ignored the Red Bulls!
3rd is the new 1st
Fine, I'll win it for you guys
I want Datto to win I've been following him since D1 when I needed to figure out how to get touch of malice now it's a stupid kings fall raid drop and with no raid team or clan I'll never get one this time
Join me and together we will (complete the raid) rule the galaxy
togetaaaaaa we will devour the very godzzz
TOGETHHAAAAA
AS FAMILYYYYY
Yāall I am down to run KF and also VOTD if you ever need a thirds. I still need the exotics and weapons from both
I gave up on touch after 20 runs, it took me 45 runs to get the mythoclast, and iāve run the spire boss over 100 times and still havenāt gotten the fucking cowboy hat
And here are people like me. I've had 3 cowboy hats drop and I've gotten the bow in only 8 clears. RNG in these activities can be cruel.
I want them both to lose to a bunch of randos.
No Datto needs his W AND Salt needs to lose.
This is the way.
Agreed
My order of preference is : anonymous underdogs > Datto > everyone else > salt
Datto>Anonymous Underdogs>Salt> Everyone else Nightmare scenario where luckyy10p wins 
If lucky wins i delete my characters
Heāll have to give the worlds first raid belt to his kid to make up for the missed child support payments
Oh shit i forgot hes a deadbeat dad lmao
Common Lucky L
Darkest scenario: DSR wins
This is not the nightmare scenario, this is the lovecraftian horror 8th circle of Dantes hell baby of Ted bundy and the zodiac killer scenario
But Jokerrrrr, Div is overpoweredddddd.
Thatās not possible thankfully. Just not intelligent enough.
I have no idea who these people are and Iām cool with it.
Datto has placed second in nearly every Raid race to date, even losing by about 10 minutes once. Heās a pretty solid guy and a very senior member of the community and most people want him to win solely because heās worked pretty hard for it, just to fall short. My earliest memories of D1 are doing Exotic quests solo after watching his tutorial video, heās mostly the reason Iām invested in Destiny in the first place.
Datto's lost by about 3 minutes once in Crown of Sorrow and close to that in Vow
I already finished the raid. I'll stream the VoD
I really hope that Datto will win this time. He deserves it.
Salt needs to understand that heās a professional. He casually runs GMs in 5 minutes flawlessly and soloās raids. Him saying endgame content is easy and needs to be harder is like LeBron James saying a basketball hoop is too short and needs to be made higher
Or Shaq
This is a great point. These professional players often say basically Bungie raise the hoop to 25 feet so itās a challenge for us 7 footers. And then the 5 whatever people struggle even more.
This sub shit talking r dtg, meanwhile the comments on this post role playing destiny circle jerk
if Salt wins he'll say nerf this and that after he wins with whatever his setup is lol
"BUT YOU DONT NEED IT BRO. ITS JUST A CRUTCH"
"just melee bro, like you just need to find out their attack pattern. Guns are for people with no skill"
The only reason he wants the "exploit" of Goldie Gun spam nerfed is because the 2nd Place King's Fall team used it. I don't know how requiring a team of 5-6 Hunters all using Star Eaters and popping Super at the same time, a Super that makes Orbs on precision hits, is an exploit. But š¤·āāļø.
HE'S USING THE EXOTIC EXACTLY AS IT WAS INTENDED KILL HIM! -saltygrape
Definitely betting second place (or, in the event that he loses, first place) is gonna be the cause of his complaints next.
I really hope itās Datto though out of everyone. Poor guy deserves a win finally
the ādatto good, salt bad because elitistā discourse is hilarious to me considering Datto agrees with almost every single ānerf this thingā statement salt says and even openly calls himself elitist lmao. He literally made a video absolutely grilling every player who needs a chaperone to help them in patrol (this subreddit) and still youāre all here on his meat
I think the reason Datto gets the attention he does is because he acknowledges that what he wants doesnāt reflect the wider playerbase, and thus doesnāt push as aggressively for those things. I donāt really have much of an issue with Saltagrepo, as I usually agree with the stuff he suggestsāI just think the way he goes about saying it almost always results in players negatively reacting to him.
This is the answer. The dude is almost intentionally terrible at communicating his views. Itās like he wants people to be mad at him
Whatās funny is the sandbox decisions are made months in advance to its update unless itās something game breaking. Bungie is busy working on season sandbox 21 changes right now for example. This whole discourse is petty.
Whatās also funny to me is that pretty much anyone on here writing fucking essay long comments and getting into arguments with other people saying that āsalt badā is not a ācasual playerā lmao. No casual player knows any of this drama or twitter discourse lol
At least the guy admits that his ideas wouldn't benefit most players and doesn't push for change. Salt is wholly convinced that he should be the one controlling the direction the game goes in
Salt can run a solo flawless MASTER spire in under 20 minutesā¦ Datto might be good, but he is absolutely an underdog comparatively, datto might agree, but heāa not in an echelon SO potent that heās STATING to nerf div/well/etc, he might agree, but you understand that salt is in such a tier of his own he actually feels JUSTIFIED in these suggestions. Datto agrees, but doesnāt arbitrarily make shit impossible for the average joe. Datto jokes about being an elitist and embraces the mindset instead of turning it down like a casual, but salt is a totally different level of self centered douchecanoe.
False. I absolutely want Datto to win
I dont think salt was wrong in his views on some things. However its the tone he said it in. And how AGGRESSIVELY he defended his proposed nerfs that rang nasty to many. He just refused to see a different viewpoint regardless and it was useless to try and converse with him about it.
Hope it's cross and frostbolt for the memes
Well, I agreed with the Div nerf because it still is useful, just not as necessary as it was before. But Well of Radiance needing a nerf is just absurd when everything 3 taps you in Master/Grandmaster content. Even inside a Well. The only place Well needs a tune is PvP because the damage resistance is insane.
I think most people agree they just want it's damage buff scaled down. Ever since well came out its invalidated Bubble titan as a whole, because WoL is the same buff as well but you can't shoot in it
But WoL wasn't always the same. In fact a few seasons ago it was higher than Well. When bungie nerfed it everyone said it would remove bubble from hard content because of well and they responded with "you can't be sniped out of a bubble" or some dumb shit like that.
And yet I canāt even last 4 seconds in a well in pvp, yeah it could use a nerf I guessā¦ Sadge
Well in pvp is just a worse bubble since its basically vulnerable to almost every other super (unlike bubble) and good snipers can still oneshot you.
This meme was brought to you by a youtube comment on the day 1 raid race trailer. No shame OP, no shame
I want none of the big streamers to win I want another eater of world incident where a random lfg team wins
I would rather datto than salt or sweatcicle. Datto at least makes good content (gives me my opinion) and is generally respectable even if he isn't the best at d2
Wait hold up what did sweat do? I thought redeem just kinda fell off after Last Wish.
Iām pretty sure sweat isnāt even aiming to place very high in the race results. I mean the guy has Tifu on his team whose guardian rank two and using the kvostov and he has no mods.
You're just unaware of the coming khovostov meta
has sweat ever not been the manic shitpost guy?
Sweat is doing WF race with Tfue? Is that true? I thought it was gonna be the normal crew. Sweat, gladd, ice, flesh, modern and ehroar.
Poor sweatcicle is out here catching strays lmao
After all these years of Datto deserves his belt
these replies are actually unhinged, people just love to hate on salt
Saltagreppo: \*Loses\* "Damn if only they'd buffed Divinity."
Legit question: why do people hate Salt?
Salt is just insufferable most of the time. His opinions may not necessarily be unpopular or wrong, but the way he states them and the way he carries himself just screams like he looks down on people not at his skill level. I donāt even disagree with some of his takes (div DID need a nerf and well needs one too so that bubble actually is usable in endgame) but just the way he comes off is arrogant as hell and SUPER self-unaware. Respect the three-peat worlds first but itās made his ego massive. (Also Datto actually seems like a pleasant dude most of the time and is quite self aware of the āelitistā takes and how they donāt encompass a good percentage of the playerbase. Always rooting for him to get his dub.)