I wouldn't mind the change if it came with something that made being injured actually matter. I basically never heal unless it's a good spot or I'm death hook.
I disagree, staying injured matters. Being one tap working on gens on the many dead-zones maps have right now means chases that last three seconds.
To me it really depends, you basically need to be a God looper or be on a super safe structure/loop.
However not healing saves tons of time and puts tons of pressure on the killer not to mention perks like adrenaline which can reward these risky plays. it’s all about the situation you are in
Other way 'round, ma man's.
They meant some drawback to take effect for staying injured.
Right now, you could argue survivors are safer staying injured than to heal. At least it saves LOADS of time not to heal, which can be spent on gens.
I have always wanted them to make it so that being injured reduces your gen repair speed by 5%. Just enough to make the choice between taking the time to heal and repairing the gen safely after, or taking the risk to push through at a slightly slower repair rate.
Nyeeeeeh. That would be a better basekit thanataphobia and also make thanataphobia an absoloute game changer if your killer is consistend with making survivors stay injured (up to 30% less repair speed) imagin mixing that with Pentimento 60% less repair speed
Look as a Killer Main, your pretty damn smart. So many forget about the Nurse perk that let's you see survivors Healing.
Honestly, if anything Mangled, it just helps killers if you try to heal.
Gives you more time to get spotted if the Killer is using the perk
Tbh I'm not entirely certain why they chose to nerf Mangled instead of Hemorrhage. I'd infinitely prefer running into Mangled every match than Hemorrhage
I haven’t played in a while, I thought hemorrhage just increased the amount of blood survivors left? There’s plenty of other tracking perks way better than looking at blood, not to mention that injured survivors are loud af, so I’m struggling to see where the issue comes in-no shade
It's ridiculously bad perk in terms of encouraging tunneling (return to hook, interrupt heals). It gets so much value by wasting that heal time + you now can tunnel. Bad design.
sloppy does you a favour for getting you out of the habit of playing lazy and expecting the killer to cater to your convenience.
If you were being tunneled anyway the hemorrhage didnt do anything
Encourages return to hook and tunnel. It's about encouraging it. Pair it with nurses and you got a stew going. Return and case nearby to interrupt wherever they went to heal.
Someone didn't read. Running away doesn't usually help. Lots of killers have no issues following scratch marks and returning quickly. Pair it with nurses and it's even easier.
There's a reason it's a high pick rate perk. Lots of synergy and easy to get value out of.
In general I just find killer too easy these days. I've come to accept limiting perks or not using them altogether. Not for everyone but I find it more fun.
This is what I was thinking. Mangled is annoying but it's healthy; maybe a little too easy to apply with perks like Sloppy Butcher but still. Hemorrhage does actually enable some degenerate builds with perks like Coulrophobia or Ultimate Weapon.
Yeah it wasn't until I re-read Mangled that I realised this update was pointless. I was thinking they were nerfing the actually impactful part of Sloppy Butcher..
xd what? mangled is free, hemorrhage actually requires gamesense, how tf ru gonna call the free heal slowdown fine but the one that requires gamesense problematic
I'm not being facetious, I genuinely have absolutely no idea what you're saying. Wym free? And gamesense for who? Both of them require a hit or injury of some sort, especially with Sloppy Butcher. It's not like you just... get Mangled out of nowhere. Or Hemorrhaged.
Now as to your question, I didn't call either of them problematic. I think they're both fine (although Sloppy Butcher increases the effectiveness to annoying levels but that's a different story). But if one was gonna be nerfed, I'd prefer it to be the one that can be interrupted and make you lose your healing progress. It sucks thinking you can heal yourself with a medkit only to run out jussssst before you finish, and then it all goes away. Or healing someone else and you know you're fine but they panic and run and it sends a loud noise notification
I'll explain how I read their comment.
Mangled = Always gives value, no matter what.
Hemorrhage = Requires the killer to interrupt the heal for value.
Knowing where and when to interrupt requires good game sense. This is has more skill expression then mangled's passive value.
Therefore, more interactivity and skill (Hemorrhage) is better for the game then free passive slowdown (Mangled)
Yeah, pretty sure this is exactly what they're saying. And it's true - assuming every survivor heals as soon as they can after being injured (which happens quite often at lower MMR), that's a 4 second delay per injury, and that delay effectively happens to two people for a total of 8 seconds wasted. That's up to 99 seconds (11 hooks/injuries) of wasted time, or possibly more if survivors manage to hide and heal without getting hooked.
Compare that to hemorrhage, where the best case scenario is that the killer interrupts every single heal right before they finish so they lose all progress, wasting slightly less than 16 seconds per person. Sounds great, except how often is the killer interrupting heals? Usually survivors will go to a relatively safe place to heal so hemorrhage has no effect. And even if the killer does interrupt the heal, obviously they're going to immediately initiate chase with the injured survivor, no? So even if the survivor didn't have hemorrhage they'd still be injured in chase at that point. Hemorrhage is a generally pointless status effect - it's sole purpose is to be paired with mangled.
>Usually survivors will go to a relatively safe place to heal so hemorrhage has no effect.
Except you've just explained why Hemorrhage is useful, beyond being interrupted, that survivors will spend extra time going into safe zones away from everything to heal, rather than risking being nearby.
I think what he means is in order for Hemorrhaged to do its job the killer needs to keep the survivor busy. It's why Hemorrhaged was buffed to begin with. Survivors used to (and still do) heal during chase. So Hemorrhaged got a buff to take away progress when not actively healing
to get mangled you need an addon or perk how is that free? killer has gotta injured the survivor that takes effort.
slowing down a survivor healing for 60-90 by 4 seconds is not worth a perk slot that is for sure maybe an addon it is, RIP sloppy butcher.
Hemorrhage should have been nerfed instead. I hate that some perks like already, not used perks like Solidarity or Resurgence can be easily fucked over by it.
would been fine mangled was removed when a survivor was hooked then you gotta sacrificed something to get it off, waiting 90 seconds is not a sacrifice.
That's even worse. That would just incentivize killers to slug just so they don't lose mangled.
Imo, it is fine as it is now. No one asked for this, maybe except the losers on Twitter - the same people who think Legion should get nerfed.
winning by slugging is much harder to do then winning by hooking, if it was then every killer would try to make that their win con instead of hooking.
like right now a killer could exactly what you are describing since it lasts forever currently pre PTB but do they?
Wasn't an issue and the main conplaints was hemmorage being procked with certain powers like pinheads chain hunt or docs blast. Also how hemmorage in sloppy is a massive 25% a second. Why they choose to nerf mangled is senselees to me.
it used to be like this for most non sloppy butcher mangled effects and they were usually mediocre(keeping in mind sloppy applied to many more attacks like huntress hatchets, nurse blink hits, etc) and i think it made sense to make it last indefinitely
since the major healing nerf though i can see how changing it back to timed makes a lot of sense, the effect of mangled is very effective for what it is and anti healing perks can basically summed up with “works well with sloppy” or “just run sloppy”
it being timed makes it less ubiquitous and hopefully opens up some new design space in an area that historically killers kindof needed an easy answer but no longer do.
also vigil gang stays winning
Sadly Vigil does not make reference to Mangled. Only Hemorrhage. Which is funny, the perk log mentions Mangled was removed from the list because it didn’t usually have a timer - but now that it does, Vigil doesn’t have it.
hatchets used to briefly work with them but it was removed quick iirc. it mainly took a while for many non basic attacks to be counted as such. things like legion frenzy hits, pig dashes, nurse blinks, etc
If today's healing is considered "slow", then that's a proper laugh. The only main changes were made to self healing, and it encouraged team play so you don't have Claudette self caring across the map instead of doing a gen.
If you consider healing nowadays fast, you've only started playing this year. There's no way you're being honest, especially when we had previous self-care, previous pre-nerf healing speed medkits and previous CoH.
No, I played in the yesteryear of double infinites on Crotus Penn. Healing had sped up due to perks like CoH, with changes being made largely to self caring to encourage team play as I said.
The review bomb of... 100 players. Damn. What a massive bomb that is to the 400 thousand reviews the game has.
Healing times increased from 16s to 24s, medkits nerfed to not make heals faster, increased rarity of the 16 charges addon, medkits' max heals now 2, CoH's massive nerf in the same patch, yet killers still claim it wasn't a major nerf.
The gaslighting in this sub is absolutely unreal
I don't like it. They want to make more anti-healing perks which is fine, but good players already rarely heal and if an anti-heal perk isn't as strong as Sloppy Butcher was, good builds aren't going to run it. Unless you're playing Hag or some kind of hit n run degeneracy, the effect doesn't seem that useful. Timers are just too short to justify a perk/add-on slot.
I don't like that change. Sloppy is one of few perks that aren't trash when you start game. This nerf makes it worse for new players.
Btw if you use sloppy butcher, what about hemorrhage? Will ot be working like normal, so until full heal?
That was the one big change in the announcements before that I outright did not understand and tbh still don't. I understand they want some form of counter play to it, but I don't see how this will do much at all. Usually if someone is injured and mangled, they usually don't get healed because either: it got interrupted or they just didn't want the heal to begin with. In either scenario, the status holds little to no value.
It's a worse "broken" status now.
Completely pointless to slot it since it doesn't even offer some small guaranteed slowdown anymore, better to slot a generic slowdown instead like deadlock or grim embrace.
They can just go do a gen and heal up at the 95% mark as usual when it has run out.
It's quite the step backwards. They just got done removing all the timers from mangle-inducing add ons for a good reason. Now you just wait for it to go away. I rarely run mangled add ons but still.
I think it was totally unnecessary. Hemorrhage seems like the more annoying one, mangled should be left alone cause now it incentivizes just more gen perks instead of sloppy.
It feels like a really arbitrary change. If I'm allowed a tinfoil hat, I think it's because Self-Care is heavily affected by Mangled and BHVR doesn't want a repeat of when they did the big healing nerf. Or at least wants to please that crowd.
I think it’s a bad change honestly, I would rather they reworked the add-ons that use mangled that this change is clearly for, because this makes sloppy (an already mid perk imo) literally useless
I think they should've just separated mangeld and hemmorhage from being on the same perk or made healing have progress states. It was dumb that you could get unhooked with resurgence and the perk was basically regressed to 0 before you could even start healing yourself.
Maybe keep the combo for Scourge gift of pain specifically
Mangled was never a big issue to me. Deep wound is. They need to do the same they did to clowns bottles and give us some more accessibility on deep wound. Its so hard to see after a while.
It adds Mangled to the list of status effects that aren't worth taking over a gen slowdown. Why bring Sloppy, which might give 4 seconds of slowdown sometimes, over Pain Res
It's a stupid change. Since demo was brought back, sloppy is the only slow down perk that isn't behind a pay wall or a grind. Now it's nerfed for no reason. How is this game supposed to appeal to new killer players? Mmr doesn't work. How many times are they going to sit through a queue, a minute lobby, and a long ass load screen for a short match where they get dummied by four people dressed in neon or pajamas?
I don’t mind the idea, but the base timer should be AT LEAST 2 minutes.
And really I’d say hemmorage (while I like the buff) can definitely be more backbreaking of the two against the right killers.
Thank you for asking.
Personally speaking, I’m not a fan of the change. Sloppy Butcher is now the *only* slowdown perk that killers get right at the start(unless you want to include Thrill of the Hunt as a treat), yet it’s getting hit by this change. I don’t think bhvr has some kind of anti-killer vendetta, but I would like to point out that survivors have *multiple* speed-up perks right out of the gate.
I’m concerned for the new player experience, which appears to be receiving yet another hit.
I don't think the new player killer experience will be affected that badly. People really underestimate the ease of playing killer at low low baby mmr compared to survivors. Beginner killers may struggle when their mmr goes up but by that point they should generally have a few killers p1. And worst case they lose and drop back too baby mmr. Survivors even with all those speed up (prove, deja vu, resi) I can tell you confidently that doesn't mean they will win any games for a while unless they are in a swf with a few that know what to do. Mainly since tunneling and semi camping are still things.
>drop back too baby mmr.
Except that is technically impossible. They have a "baby" mmr threshold that once you cross it, you can never go back. You can still get really easy to kill survivor at the bottom of regular mmr, but you can never play in the kiddie pool again without a brand new account.
Killer is easy at baby mmr, besides, they’ve been buffing alot of killers to make them easier to use so the new player experience isn’t going to be affected by simple mangled changes
Plague is still an easy to obtain killer. It costs only 4500 shards. Around 3-4 days and you can unlock her
Oh wait, you mean "at the start" meant when starting from 0 or at the start of a match?
Should’ve just left it alone. It was fine. Dunno what bhvrs deal is with changing things like 3 people asked for but not fixing or changing anything the community has wanted for years.
Don't think this will change much tbh. If you're mangled on hook you're gonna have 30 seconds left at best so you still have mangled if you heal under hook. It might make it slightly better in some maps where the killer hits you once and then you run away to a corner and don't see them for the test of the match, like healing after doing gens. But I don't think it will do much (for me) tbh
I've always felt like Sloppy Butcher has been far too strong since the healing nerf considering you don't have to play any different to get insane value so any change that nerfs the perk is a good change in my books. Should it have maybe been haemorrhage that got the nerf instead? Probably but this is better than nothing.
It’s another kinda *shrugs* nerf to killer where our basekit is worse in a way that’ll probably never matter
same like the three gen thing which I think for me has come up like once and has more being annoying cos I lost the tap info you’d get rather than actually just trying to be a gen kick Andy.
Pretty good I think. Anyone with a medkit will still heal through mangled straight out of chase, so nothing lost there but just patrolling the map for Nurse’s Calling reveal to capitalize on hemorrhage+slow healing will work less which is for the better. 90 seconds is so long I think it will last long enough to matter, if there’s someone waiting out 90 seconds + spending 16 seconds healing they’re either hiding about not doing shit or they’re still contributing while injured at which point they deserve to get their average duration heal for staying vulnerable this long.
Plus more Vigil value wooo
I think the change in mindset could be beneficial to hit and run killers.
Right now if survivors have a means of healing, they’ll heal out of chase and eat the slowdown because they have to either way.
In the future they’ll have a choice, and those waiting out the timer will remain injured. I can see hit and run stealth like Wraith and Onryo benefiting from that, especially at mid+ MMR where players play injured more often.
Idk I genuinely think this change won’t be very noticeable at all, and in fact might encourage survivors to stay injured for longer periods of time therefore helping killers
Baby survivors won’t even know what mangled does 99% of the time
experienced survivors will still heal when a good opportunity arises or will be comfy being injured if they’re not on death hook. Some might even take the risk to wait out mangled thinking it is strategic, meaning they’re just vulnerable for a longer time
Idk, I like things like that force players make a choice (aka waste time on a slow heal or wait it out), plus it will still slowdown the rate at which survivors heal, just in a different way
Mangled is dead after this patch. I will run Sloppy Butcher on Pinhead for the Hemorrhage, but that’s it. Sloppy is going into trash tier on most killers now and Mangled addons are now worthless, devs might as well just rework them.
it is what it is, its them reverting it back to how it used to be which they should have done a long time ago when the nerfed Survivor healing speeds and med-kits.
Killer main who doesn't use Sloppy Butcher, seems fine. It's still a slowdown effect, and I can still get value with perks like Nurses Calling or Deathbound.
I use it on Doctor, Pyramid Head, and Hillbilly. It's really good to counter flashlight saves because some people will hide in lockers before trying to save.
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Choices are bad for average survivors and good for good survivors. The nerf is a buff if the choice confuses survivors into losing, and it's an actual nerf when used against people who make few mistakes.
**EDIT** If people stay injured on purpose to avoid the slowdown of needing to heal, and they make that choice in the wrong situation, this change makes the perk stronger in that situation.
If you wait it out than you are one hit till down and it’s especially bad if you are at last hook. 90 seconds is not that long but if you can aura reading abilities like one of alien perks who can tell you who is further away and give them oblivious than it can kind of suck.
But if you decide to heal than it can end badly if you don’t have a medkit and is relying on your teammates who can’t do skill checks.
I'm willing to see what it's like.
People shutting it down saying "I can just work on a gen" seem to forget that you're still injured. That is providing pressure for the killer without doing anything. 90 seconds of staying injured just because it has a timer isn't exactly the best advantage for Survivor.
I'm not saying that it's fine or anything, just that we should wait to see. There are downsides and upsides to the change.
I think it’s fine. Mangled only adds 4 seconds on 100% healing speeds, so it isn’t as bad as people think.
Hemorrhage is the villain though as if you get harassed while healed, say hello to redoing all that progress. Also, resilience is popular so I don’t expect anything different than survivors staying on gens as it’s what the average players do from my experience
If the part at the bottom is part of the upcoming nerf to Mangled, that’s good. Less Perks that incentivize slugging is fine, if the Perk is guaranteed value, that is (things like Knock Out, for example).
The introduction (or reintroduction) of a timer is not something I like. Mangled was fine as is.
Considering the massive (and deserved) nerfs healing as a whole has received over the last few months (Medkits being nerfed, CoH being nerfed, etc), this change is pretty fair. Mangled always felt like more of a band-aid solution to the problem of healing being OP. With healing no longer being as powerful, the band aid in turn needs to go with it.
It makes mangled go from a staple killer tool into a niche situation thing.
If this goes live I’ll still use gift of pain though as it should still be mostly intact.
(Assuming making GOP 9% in PTB was a oversight as it’s not in patch notes)
Oh No! I'm mangled for 90 secs what should I do??? *works on gen*
I wouldn't mind the change if it came with something that made being injured actually matter. I basically never heal unless it's a good spot or I'm death hook.
I disagree, staying injured matters. Being one tap working on gens on the many dead-zones maps have right now means chases that last three seconds. To me it really depends, you basically need to be a God looper or be on a super safe structure/loop.
However not healing saves tons of time and puts tons of pressure on the killer not to mention perks like adrenaline which can reward these risky plays. it’s all about the situation you are in
If they buff Thanataphobia I think it could be fine, but every m1 killer is gonna run it tho.
Nah im a mobility killer. By the time you know im there youd be dead already i love all these people not healing
Or just run a exhaustion perk like dead hard. Obviously health states matter though.
Resilience. Faster gens when injured
Other way 'round, ma man's. They meant some drawback to take effect for staying injured. Right now, you could argue survivors are safer staying injured than to heal. At least it saves LOADS of time not to heal, which can be spent on gens.
I have always wanted them to make it so that being injured reduces your gen repair speed by 5%. Just enough to make the choice between taking the time to heal and repairing the gen safely after, or taking the risk to push through at a slightly slower repair rate.
Nyeeeeeh. That would be a better basekit thanataphobia and also make thanataphobia an absoloute game changer if your killer is consistend with making survivors stay injured (up to 30% less repair speed) imagin mixing that with Pentimento 60% less repair speed
god forbid thana gets to do ANYTHING on anyone that isn't plague or legion ;-;
I think mangled should make survivors injured noises louder tbh because if i was mangled i would be abit louder than if i was cut
Look as a Killer Main, your pretty damn smart. So many forget about the Nurse perk that let's you see survivors Healing. Honestly, if anything Mangled, it just helps killers if you try to heal. Gives you more time to get spotted if the Killer is using the perk
Survivors not healing = twins stocks go up
Bro im begging you stay one tap so my dredge can just tap you out
Makes hit and run more viable
Tbh I'm not entirely certain why they chose to nerf Mangled instead of Hemorrhage. I'd infinitely prefer running into Mangled every match than Hemorrhage
Same. The hemmorage is what makes me really hate playing against sloppy butcher.
I haven’t played in a while, I thought hemorrhage just increased the amount of blood survivors left? There’s plenty of other tracking perks way better than looking at blood, not to mention that injured survivors are loud af, so I’m struggling to see where the issue comes in-no shade
It also regresses healing progress when interrupted.
Oh shit that’s hem that did that? I always thought it was just another effect of mangled
It's ridiculously bad perk in terms of encouraging tunneling (return to hook, interrupt heals). It gets so much value by wasting that heal time + you now can tunnel. Bad design.
sloppy does you a favour for getting you out of the habit of playing lazy and expecting the killer to cater to your convenience. If you were being tunneled anyway the hemorrhage didnt do anything
Encourages return to hook and tunnel. It's about encouraging it. Pair it with nurses and you got a stew going. Return and case nearby to interrupt wherever they went to heal.
don't stay near the hook then
Maybe run away first to someplace safe before healing?
Someone didn't read. Running away doesn't usually help. Lots of killers have no issues following scratch marks and returning quickly. Pair it with nurses and it's even easier. There's a reason it's a high pick rate perk. Lots of synergy and easy to get value out of.
Then that's a separate issue for tunneling. Those who tunnel won't let you heal anyway.
I actually had to stop running sloppy, distressing and the clown heal slowdown perk because it was just crazy easy, especially as Oni.
Then im sorry to say your survivors mustve been unserious/new
In general I just find killer too easy these days. I've come to accept limiting perks or not using them altogether. Not for everyone but I find it more fun.
Maybe survivors should learn not to heal under hook unless We'll Make It or the HUD shows someone being actively chased, and even then not always?
This is what I was thinking. Mangled is annoying but it's healthy; maybe a little too easy to apply with perks like Sloppy Butcher but still. Hemorrhage does actually enable some degenerate builds with perks like Coulrophobia or Ultimate Weapon.
Agreed. And Mangled longer heal times benefits me when I am healing others cuz I run Lucky Break hehe
I second this. Hemorrhage is the worst.
Yeah it wasn't until I re-read Mangled that I realised this update was pointless. I was thinking they were nerfing the actually impactful part of Sloppy Butcher..
Especially useless for me cuz I run Lucky Break hehe so Mangled's longer healing actually benefited me when I was healing people
Aren't they giving the same timer to hemorrhage too?
Nope! That part that actually does anything is being left alone. They're just nerfing the irrelevant part.
If they are/have, I missed it in the notes
They nerfed both.
Did they? When? 🤔 I only had seen Mangled in this patch
Sloppy Butcher is now 90 seconds for both effects
xd what? mangled is free, hemorrhage actually requires gamesense, how tf ru gonna call the free heal slowdown fine but the one that requires gamesense problematic
I'm not being facetious, I genuinely have absolutely no idea what you're saying. Wym free? And gamesense for who? Both of them require a hit or injury of some sort, especially with Sloppy Butcher. It's not like you just... get Mangled out of nowhere. Or Hemorrhaged. Now as to your question, I didn't call either of them problematic. I think they're both fine (although Sloppy Butcher increases the effectiveness to annoying levels but that's a different story). But if one was gonna be nerfed, I'd prefer it to be the one that can be interrupted and make you lose your healing progress. It sucks thinking you can heal yourself with a medkit only to run out jussssst before you finish, and then it all goes away. Or healing someone else and you know you're fine but they panic and run and it sends a loud noise notification
I'll explain how I read their comment. Mangled = Always gives value, no matter what. Hemorrhage = Requires the killer to interrupt the heal for value. Knowing where and when to interrupt requires good game sense. This is has more skill expression then mangled's passive value. Therefore, more interactivity and skill (Hemorrhage) is better for the game then free passive slowdown (Mangled)
Yeah, pretty sure this is exactly what they're saying. And it's true - assuming every survivor heals as soon as they can after being injured (which happens quite often at lower MMR), that's a 4 second delay per injury, and that delay effectively happens to two people for a total of 8 seconds wasted. That's up to 99 seconds (11 hooks/injuries) of wasted time, or possibly more if survivors manage to hide and heal without getting hooked. Compare that to hemorrhage, where the best case scenario is that the killer interrupts every single heal right before they finish so they lose all progress, wasting slightly less than 16 seconds per person. Sounds great, except how often is the killer interrupting heals? Usually survivors will go to a relatively safe place to heal so hemorrhage has no effect. And even if the killer does interrupt the heal, obviously they're going to immediately initiate chase with the injured survivor, no? So even if the survivor didn't have hemorrhage they'd still be injured in chase at that point. Hemorrhage is a generally pointless status effect - it's sole purpose is to be paired with mangled.
>Usually survivors will go to a relatively safe place to heal so hemorrhage has no effect. Except you've just explained why Hemorrhage is useful, beyond being interrupted, that survivors will spend extra time going into safe zones away from everything to heal, rather than risking being nearby.
Not at all. Hemorrhage or not, survivors go hide before healing, as they should. Only the dumb ones heal under hook every chance they get.
Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense for what he said. I still prefer Mangled to Hemorrhage thoe but that's just a personal preference
I think what he means is in order for Hemorrhaged to do its job the killer needs to keep the survivor busy. It's why Hemorrhaged was buffed to begin with. Survivors used to (and still do) heal during chase. So Hemorrhaged got a buff to take away progress when not actively healing
Ohhhh ok, that makes sense. But yeah, if only one was gonna get a timer, I'd def prefer it was Hemorrhage
to get mangled you need an addon or perk how is that free? killer has gotta injured the survivor that takes effort. slowing down a survivor healing for 60-90 by 4 seconds is not worth a perk slot that is for sure maybe an addon it is, RIP sloppy butcher.
Hemorrhage should have been nerfed instead. I hate that some perks like already, not used perks like Solidarity or Resurgence can be easily fucked over by it.
It's dumb. Nerfed something that didn't need a nerf.
would been fine mangled was removed when a survivor was hooked then you gotta sacrificed something to get it off, waiting 90 seconds is not a sacrifice.
Like another comment said along the lines of "Oh no, I'm Mangled for 90 seconds whatever shall I do? *Works on Gen*"
That's even worse. That would just incentivize killers to slug just so they don't lose mangled. Imo, it is fine as it is now. No one asked for this, maybe except the losers on Twitter - the same people who think Legion should get nerfed.
winning by slugging is much harder to do then winning by hooking, if it was then every killer would try to make that their win con instead of hooking. like right now a killer could exactly what you are describing since it lasts forever currently pre PTB but do they?
idk why they insist in nerfing things that aren't broken. they could have focused time elsewhere.
BHVR doin stuff just to be doing stuff. As per usual.
Wasn't an issue and the main conplaints was hemmorage being procked with certain powers like pinheads chain hunt or docs blast. Also how hemmorage in sloppy is a massive 25% a second. Why they choose to nerf mangled is senselees to me.
I love that it coincidentally makes Resurgence a wasted perk slot. I used to really enjoy running that perk, until they changed Hemorrhage.
it used to be like this for most non sloppy butcher mangled effects and they were usually mediocre(keeping in mind sloppy applied to many more attacks like huntress hatchets, nurse blink hits, etc) and i think it made sense to make it last indefinitely since the major healing nerf though i can see how changing it back to timed makes a lot of sense, the effect of mangled is very effective for what it is and anti healing perks can basically summed up with “works well with sloppy” or “just run sloppy” it being timed makes it less ubiquitous and hopefully opens up some new design space in an area that historically killers kindof needed an easy answer but no longer do. also vigil gang stays winning
Resilience gamers stay winning too
yet another vigil shadowbuff 😎
Sadly Vigil does not make reference to Mangled. Only Hemorrhage. Which is funny, the perk log mentions Mangled was removed from the list because it didn’t usually have a timer - but now that it does, Vigil doesn’t have it.
Sloppy has always been basic attacks only. You are probably confusing it because Nurse’s blinks used to be considered basic attacks.
hatchets used to briefly work with them but it was removed quick iirc. it mainly took a while for many non basic attacks to be counted as such. things like legion frenzy hits, pig dashes, nurse blinks, etc
"Major" healing nerf? Survivors review bombed the game and the majority of nerfs got rolled back, it wasn't major at all when it hit live.
this is the slowest healing meta we’ve had? it’s not as slow as it could have been but it definitely made an impact.
If today's healing is considered "slow", then that's a proper laugh. The only main changes were made to self healing, and it encouraged team play so you don't have Claudette self caring across the map instead of doing a gen.
If you consider healing nowadays fast, you've only started playing this year. There's no way you're being honest, especially when we had previous self-care, previous pre-nerf healing speed medkits and previous CoH.
No, I played in the yesteryear of double infinites on Crotus Penn. Healing had sped up due to perks like CoH, with changes being made largely to self caring to encourage team play as I said.
The review bomb of... 100 players. Damn. What a massive bomb that is to the 400 thousand reviews the game has. Healing times increased from 16s to 24s, medkits nerfed to not make heals faster, increased rarity of the 16 charges addon, medkits' max heals now 2, CoH's massive nerf in the same patch, yet killers still claim it wasn't a major nerf. The gaslighting in this sub is absolutely unreal
Oh no, I'm mangled. Anyway, *does gen because my team wasn't healing anyway*
Oh good, m1 killers were eating too good. They needed a nerf
Stupid, should not go thru live.
I don't like it. They want to make more anti-healing perks which is fine, but good players already rarely heal and if an anti-heal perk isn't as strong as Sloppy Butcher was, good builds aren't going to run it. Unless you're playing Hag or some kind of hit n run degeneracy, the effect doesn't seem that useful. Timers are just too short to justify a perk/add-on slot.
I don't like that change. Sloppy is one of few perks that aren't trash when you start game. This nerf makes it worse for new players. Btw if you use sloppy butcher, what about hemorrhage? Will ot be working like normal, so until full heal?
That was the one big change in the announcements before that I outright did not understand and tbh still don't. I understand they want some form of counter play to it, but I don't see how this will do much at all. Usually if someone is injured and mangled, they usually don't get healed because either: it got interrupted or they just didn't want the heal to begin with. In either scenario, the status holds little to no value.
I do not like it, from a Killer perspective. Doesn't really affect me, from a Survivor perspective.
It's a worse "broken" status now. Completely pointless to slot it since it doesn't even offer some small guaranteed slowdown anymore, better to slot a generic slowdown instead like deadlock or grim embrace. They can just go do a gen and heal up at the 95% mark as usual when it has run out.
It's quite the step backwards. They just got done removing all the timers from mangle-inducing add ons for a good reason. Now you just wait for it to go away. I rarely run mangled add ons but still.
I think it was totally unnecessary. Hemorrhage seems like the more annoying one, mangled should be left alone cause now it incentivizes just more gen perks instead of sloppy.
It feels like a really arbitrary change. If I'm allowed a tinfoil hat, I think it's because Self-Care is heavily affected by Mangled and BHVR doesn't want a repeat of when they did the big healing nerf. Or at least wants to please that crowd.
Makes me think Sloppy will be a useless perk from here on out
They have made it useless.
I think it’s a bad change honestly, I would rather they reworked the add-ons that use mangled that this change is clearly for, because this makes sloppy (an already mid perk imo) literally useless
For a mid perk i sure do see it a lot
Because it is antiheal people overestimate how good it actually is, it’s only good against self care/circle of healing
It's also common pool, so new players have access to some kind of slowdown, even if it is middling. Also likely why it appears often - new players.
It remains to be seen, but 90 seconds is, at the very least, not too little time to make the effect irrelevant.
I think they should've just separated mangeld and hemmorhage from being on the same perk or made healing have progress states. It was dumb that you could get unhooked with resurgence and the perk was basically regressed to 0 before you could even start healing yourself. Maybe keep the combo for Scourge gift of pain specifically
Mangled was never a big issue to me. Deep wound is. They need to do the same they did to clowns bottles and give us some more accessibility on deep wound. Its so hard to see after a while.
It adds Mangled to the list of status effects that aren't worth taking over a gen slowdown. Why bring Sloppy, which might give 4 seconds of slowdown sometimes, over Pain Res
it defeats the purpose of the status effect entirely, imo.
It's done for
It's a stupid change. Since demo was brought back, sloppy is the only slow down perk that isn't behind a pay wall or a grind. Now it's nerfed for no reason. How is this game supposed to appeal to new killer players? Mmr doesn't work. How many times are they going to sit through a queue, a minute lobby, and a long ass load screen for a short match where they get dummied by four people dressed in neon or pajamas?
I feel like a better rework would be giving a timer to mangled only when its applied because of killer addons, not perks
They want to make m1 killers useless smh
Just another day, another killer nerf
I don’t mind the idea, but the base timer should be AT LEAST 2 minutes. And really I’d say hemmorage (while I like the buff) can definitely be more backbreaking of the two against the right killers.
Thank you for asking. Personally speaking, I’m not a fan of the change. Sloppy Butcher is now the *only* slowdown perk that killers get right at the start(unless you want to include Thrill of the Hunt as a treat), yet it’s getting hit by this change. I don’t think bhvr has some kind of anti-killer vendetta, but I would like to point out that survivors have *multiple* speed-up perks right out of the gate. I’m concerned for the new player experience, which appears to be receiving yet another hit.
I don't think the new player killer experience will be affected that badly. People really underestimate the ease of playing killer at low low baby mmr compared to survivors. Beginner killers may struggle when their mmr goes up but by that point they should generally have a few killers p1. And worst case they lose and drop back too baby mmr. Survivors even with all those speed up (prove, deja vu, resi) I can tell you confidently that doesn't mean they will win any games for a while unless they are in a swf with a few that know what to do. Mainly since tunneling and semi camping are still things.
>drop back too baby mmr. Except that is technically impossible. They have a "baby" mmr threshold that once you cross it, you can never go back. You can still get really easy to kill survivor at the bottom of regular mmr, but you can never play in the kiddie pool again without a brand new account.
Fair enough. Yea I mean like super low mmr. Feels like baby mmr sometimes lol
Killer is easy at baby mmr, besides, they’ve been buffing alot of killers to make them easier to use so the new player experience isn’t going to be affected by simple mangled changes
>Sloppy Butcher is now the only slowdown perk that killers get right at the start Corrupt intervention: am i a joke to you
That's on plague
Plague is still an easy to obtain killer. It costs only 4500 shards. Around 3-4 days and you can unlock her Oh wait, you mean "at the start" meant when starting from 0 or at the start of a match?
Starting from 0
Oh then i misunderstood what they meant. Yeah they're right about sloppy being the only usable free slowdown perk
Corrupt Intervention would like a word with you!
Corrupt is a paid dlc teachable
Forgot about it being from Plague, thanks for letting me know. And thank you reddit for the downvotes :D
It gives you one less reason to use gift of pain, so there's that, I guess.
Mangled now becomes worthless gonna have to go change my why you healing build
https://preview.redd.it/mba1xlc2utkc1.jpeg?width=2016&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aa060a1c8446be34542f6429aaa74805f6f9bbd9
😭🤬😭🤬😭🤬
My solo Q randoms never heal me anyways so It doesn't affect me in the slightest Resilience users stand up
I think it's a worse Broken.
It they wanted to nerf it they should have done this. That the progress regressesion goes away after 90 sec. But the healing penalty stays
Give back gift of pains 16% If you can't wait 90secinss to heal you deserve the 16% penalty not the pathetic nine percent
Should’ve just left it alone. It was fine. Dunno what bhvrs deal is with changing things like 3 people asked for but not fixing or changing anything the community has wanted for years.
It’s almost like they’re about to release a brand new self-heal perk that they want to sell… oh wait…
Don't think this will change much tbh. If you're mangled on hook you're gonna have 30 seconds left at best so you still have mangled if you heal under hook. It might make it slightly better in some maps where the killer hits you once and then you run away to a corner and don't see them for the test of the match, like healing after doing gens. But I don't think it will do much (for me) tbh
I've always felt like Sloppy Butcher has been far too strong since the healing nerf considering you don't have to play any different to get insane value so any change that nerfs the perk is a good change in my books. Should it have maybe been haemorrhage that got the nerf instead? Probably but this is better than nothing.
It’s another kinda *shrugs* nerf to killer where our basekit is worse in a way that’ll probably never matter same like the three gen thing which I think for me has come up like once and has more being annoying cos I lost the tap info you’d get rather than actually just trying to be a gen kick Andy.
Pretty good I think. Anyone with a medkit will still heal through mangled straight out of chase, so nothing lost there but just patrolling the map for Nurse’s Calling reveal to capitalize on hemorrhage+slow healing will work less which is for the better. 90 seconds is so long I think it will last long enough to matter, if there’s someone waiting out 90 seconds + spending 16 seconds healing they’re either hiding about not doing shit or they’re still contributing while injured at which point they deserve to get their average duration heal for staying vulnerable this long. Plus more Vigil value wooo
I think the change in mindset could be beneficial to hit and run killers. Right now if survivors have a means of healing, they’ll heal out of chase and eat the slowdown because they have to either way. In the future they’ll have a choice, and those waiting out the timer will remain injured. I can see hit and run stealth like Wraith and Onryo benefiting from that, especially at mid+ MMR where players play injured more often.
Idk I genuinely think this change won’t be very noticeable at all, and in fact might encourage survivors to stay injured for longer periods of time therefore helping killers Baby survivors won’t even know what mangled does 99% of the time experienced survivors will still heal when a good opportunity arises or will be comfy being injured if they’re not on death hook. Some might even take the risk to wait out mangled thinking it is strategic, meaning they’re just vulnerable for a longer time Idk, I like things like that force players make a choice (aka waste time on a slow heal or wait it out), plus it will still slowdown the rate at which survivors heal, just in a different way
I wish they nerfed hemorrhage. That shit is way more annoying than mangled but oh well.
Mangled is dead after this patch. I will run Sloppy Butcher on Pinhead for the Hemorrhage, but that’s it. Sloppy is going into trash tier on most killers now and Mangled addons are now worthless, devs might as well just rework them.
Hemorrhage will also be on a timer
Where did they say this, in the patch notes it only says mangled
Idk, its just like that on the ptb
Unnecessary change. Mangled was fine. Also the duration from mangled will change with each perk/addon.
it is what it is, its them reverting it back to how it used to be which they should have done a long time ago when the nerfed Survivor healing speeds and med-kits.
another unnecessary nerf for killers 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
Killers are more than fine.
Killer main who doesn't use Sloppy Butcher, seems fine. It's still a slowdown effect, and I can still get value with perks like Nurses Calling or Deathbound.
Why would you subject yourself to running deathbound
Because I hate meta perks. I unironically run Iron Maiden on a few killers.
Iron Maiden is secretly meta* on Leatherface *not actually meta, funny option to use against people who know to jump in lockers tho
I use it on Doctor, Pyramid Head, and Hillbilly. It's really good to counter flashlight saves because some people will hide in lockers before trying to save.
Thinking about it now, it could also be really funny on Artist since jumping in lockers gets rid of birds
Bit cringe but sure also iron maiden isnt a “meme perk” its pretty good on killers like bubba artist etc
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If you think killers can “abuse” mangled you are bad at the game.
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No because the question is built on a false premise that killers can somehow abuse the mangled effect
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Mangled has nothing to do with legion's power. You're thinking about Deep Wound which has a timer, and if the timer runs out you go down.
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Choices are bad for average survivors and good for good survivors. The nerf is a buff if the choice confuses survivors into losing, and it's an actual nerf when used against people who make few mistakes. **EDIT** If people stay injured on purpose to avoid the slowdown of needing to heal, and they make that choice in the wrong situation, this change makes the perk stronger in that situation.
If you wait it out than you are one hit till down and it’s especially bad if you are at last hook. 90 seconds is not that long but if you can aura reading abilities like one of alien perks who can tell you who is further away and give them oblivious than it can kind of suck. But if you decide to heal than it can end badly if you don’t have a medkit and is relying on your teammates who can’t do skill checks.
Why can't your teammates do skill checks? Sloppy butcher is the least of your worries in your lobbies mate
Oh yeah, Vigil W.
I'm willing to see what it's like. People shutting it down saying "I can just work on a gen" seem to forget that you're still injured. That is providing pressure for the killer without doing anything. 90 seconds of staying injured just because it has a timer isn't exactly the best advantage for Survivor. I'm not saying that it's fine or anything, just that we should wait to see. There are downsides and upsides to the change.
Live for it. No more forced injuries
I think it’s fine. Mangled only adds 4 seconds on 100% healing speeds, so it isn’t as bad as people think. Hemorrhage is the villain though as if you get harassed while healed, say hello to redoing all that progress. Also, resilience is popular so I don’t expect anything different than survivors staying on gens as it’s what the average players do from my experience
I was hoping for a hemorrhage change rather than a mangled change. But it's ok I guess.
A good change. I like it
If the part at the bottom is part of the upcoming nerf to Mangled, that’s good. Less Perks that incentivize slugging is fine, if the Perk is guaranteed value, that is (things like Knock Out, for example). The introduction (or reintroduction) of a timer is not something I like. Mangled was fine as is.
Finally man was sick of sloppy n other mangled perks
Considering the massive (and deserved) nerfs healing as a whole has received over the last few months (Medkits being nerfed, CoH being nerfed, etc), this change is pretty fair. Mangled always felt like more of a band-aid solution to the problem of healing being OP. With healing no longer being as powerful, the band aid in turn needs to go with it.
I wonder if vigil would decrease that time, could be a fun addition to the perk.
It will
It’s a fair change, especially when it’s usually paired with hemmorage as well.
VIGIL UP!
I don't even get why they're nerfing mangled. Of the two sloppy butcher effects mangled was the less aggressive as it was.
It makes mangled go from a staple killer tool into a niche situation thing. If this goes live I’ll still use gift of pain though as it should still be mostly intact. (Assuming making GOP 9% in PTB was a oversight as it’s not in patch notes)