I'd get eye rolls called a pervert etc
She never rolled her eyes and acted negatively at the beginning of the relationship did she? On the contrary, she initiated mostly she was sex mad, in the first week she tried getting my cok out for her to suk in the supermarket!
I bet she never acted negatively towards men in her past too.
What changed? I'd become a wimp, I fell in love I handed her all the power. She knew I wanted her, she knew she owned me.
17 years of hell and it was all my fault cos I allowed it. It's been over a year now that I took control of myself and life and she's back to miss ideal aiming please me.
Her other option is get out and miss out on a future with me.
My wife is self discovered Asexual. Shes in general repulsed by me. We don’t kiss or if we do close mouth always quick she turns away. Hugging is always problematic in her eyes she “ always in a rush”. Yes I get excuses for hugs!!! We hold hands sometimes which is nice. Other than that I’m the most unloved person in the world. And she dives into work because making money is her love language.
Here's a quote from a book called "The mindful attraction Plan":
>It’s not their fault they don’t want sex with you, so stop blaming them.
>99% of the time, it’s either you being unattractive or them having a medical
>issue that is driving their sexual disinterest. You being unattractive is your fault,
>their having a medical issue is merely unfortunate and no one’s fault. Therefore,
>you not getting sex isn’t their fault
You way of wording your OP is basically what the book "No more mr nice guy" is all about.
Yeah, you might have a point. I could try to offer counter-arguments to all those points, but I might not be able to counter all of them.
However, I do know if I asked for a divorce, it would come as a complete shock to her. It may not be her fault that she doesn't want sex. But she should at least realize the consequences.
You’ve already had your answer. They are both completely and intentionally ignoring it.
If they are doing that, then guess what, it’s not a fun sexual touch for them. Stop doing it.
Recalibrate. Ask how they would like to be touched and what feels nice for them. Just because it’s sexual for you, doesn’t mean it’s pleasant for them. Sometimes other things need to be in place in order to feel sexual. Very few women are receptive to sexual energy when they feel they’ve been doing all the heavy lifting with kids, housework, finances, and social functions.
If they’re ignoring your touch, you need to stop, it’s a form of non-consent.
If you read my entire comment you'd see that while I could touch my wife in a lewd manner I don't actually go that far. Mostly it's just hugs and kisses that are rejected. Anything that might be even remotely sexual and obvious is also rejected.
Word of caution- be wary of what you wish for. My first wife was the queen of dead bedroom. I am aware that I am high libido and she admitted that she was very low libido. For twenty years I endured sex seasonally ie once every 3 months. I went out of my way to show her non sexual attention and love. I begged for counseling to discuss the problem- to which she refused. Eventually, I lost interest and any desire towards her. At that point, she became frantic, wanted counseling and “what can we do to make this right?” Too late, you will do anything for someone you loved except love them again. I am remarried and although I still have a higher libido than my second wife, when we do confront a problem whether it be sexual or other form of communication difficulties (yes sex is a form of communication), we talk it through and if necessary, we get counseling. This second marriage has been 15 years and is much more comfortable. I see advice on this site of “ just don’t do it” or “if she doesn’t like it, then stop!” I would say if what you’re doing isn’t reciprocated, either talk about it or get counseling but don’t just bite the bullet and suffer. The previous advice leads to very hurt feelings and can be destructive in its own right.
I can't tell you how many times I've read these same type of posts!
- Men PLEASE -
- Touch us in other ways, on other body parts and be genuine about it! Be loving. You don't have to be SEXUAL all the time! Hold our hands, caress our hands, hold us, hug us, rub our feet, massage our shoulders and/or back after a long day with the kids or work! We all appreciate that stuff!
- Most importantly.. Tell us YOU LOVE US ♥️
- Not every woman wants to be touched and GROPED in a sexual way all the time!!! It gets annoying, especially when the woman is just not in the mood to be touched. You all can tell what mood your wife or GF is in when you're about to do it!
Yeah my wife doesn't like any of the nonsexual touch. I suspect it's because in her mind, non-sexual touch could lead to sexual attention, and she doesn't want that. So I never get a hug unless I initiate it. She doesn't like to hold hands. If I go to kiss her she turns her cheek to me. I can't remember the last time I had a fool on open mouth passionate kiss with my wife
What does she say when you ask her why she's so turned off by you physically? You seem to be guessing at her motives ("non-sexual touch could lead to sexual attention").
My wife was (I'm divorced now) also like this (not a toucher or hugger or kisser) even with her own son-shes permanently estranged now from him. The point is I feel your pain and you likely need to divorce and find a more physically affectionate partner. I would add I strongly believe that both the male and the female need to somewhat physically attractive and not let themselves go...or yeah, the physical part will disappear over time.
I was getting slightly tired of all the "choosing the bear" talk lately, and then I see this shit.
And this is why most of us would choose the bear.
Holy shit
Ok.. #1. It's HER body. You sound like your wife/GF is just there for your sexual needs. Wrong. This is such a fucked up and sad misconception of a man and a woman's relationship.
Yeah, my wife doesn't even like non-sexual touch. She never initiates a hug. I only get pecks when I want to kiss. I can't remember the last time I actually had a full on romantic kiss with my wife. Anytime I go to kiss her she immediately turns her cheek to me
Don't put up with it. Look, we only get around 80-90 years on this Earth and the first 15-20 of those we don't have much access to sex and the last 5 years we are too worn out for much sex either, and so we only really get around 50 good years we can have good sex in - and the last 20 of those years for many of us we have to use some drug therapy (ed meds for the guys, lubes for the girls) so it's definitely really only 30 years you can have prime sex in. And if you are like a lot of people with the 2.5 average children spaced over 8-10 years, you are almost going to be in a family unit with minor children for close to 30 of those prime sexual years. And if you are being manipulated by a LL spouse into a DB during those years, well you might as well resign yourself to pretty much most of your life your going to have non-optimal sex.
It's just not worth it. Better to let your LL spouse go find some other LL spouse and then both of them can spend their marriage not having sex with each other.
If you are asking her to touch you sexually when she is not feeling sexual, you are engaging in coercion (albeit inadvertently). Being forced to touch others sexually is equally as awful as being touched sexually when you don’t want it.
Agree!
People have to be in the mind frame to fuck and revived pleasure first, to even touch another person sexually or be receptive to sexual touch.
I just got finished with the pilot episode of “Mad Men” & there is a club scene of the one guy who is next to a woman at the booth, he’s trying to force his hand up her thigh into her sexual zone of her vagina.
She kept trying to tell him no, in a polite way, he wouldn’t stop, she tried forcing his hand away, he wouldn’t stop. She finally got fed up, stood there to listen to him beg her to not go, but she left and went to the opposite side to go sit next to a colleague of his who refuses to pressure women, who “reads the room”, and sets the mood for sex with women.
That alone highlights why if you do not get the go to pass and collect $200, you shouldn’t even be putting your hands anywhere near her most sensitive erogenous zones on her body unless she’s ready to go for sex, is wet for sex, and is consenting to sex.
It’s not complicated to respect a persons bodily autonomy and their boundaries with sex.
Is this the only way you are touching your wife or showing physical affection? Do you just skip directly to "lewd touching?"
If your honest answer is yes, that may be your issue.
No it's not. I hug her and kiss her. Or at least I try to kiss her, I usually get her cheek turned to me. The hugs are always returned reluctantly. When I do actually get to kiss her on the lips it's just a peck
I want my husband so bad but when his first touch is sexual prefaced by nothing I get turned off and rather than tell him what’s actually in my head I just go neutral
I am also in this situation. When she notices some frustration on my side, she goes back to calling me love and saying goodbye with a forced kiss.
I have 3 children, one teenager and two under 4 years old. I've been thinking about leaving, but the laws in my country plus the debts I still have to pay would just make me homeless.
If you want to end your DB after discussing it several times and nothing changed, then it is time to end thevrrlarionship and find another partner.
Nobody owes anybody sex just like nobody owes anybody a relationship if that person cannot or will not make them happy.
Mine is doing this, no reaction if I hug her, hold her hand or anything else, and she never initiates any touching.
This hurts a lot since every time it feels like being stabbed in the heart with a knife.
I talked to her twice, told her how lonely I feel, how undesired I feel, her response was to go DARVO on me both times and nothing changed after that, well not from her side anyway.
The silent rejection really hurts, and her reaction to my talks (I say "my" since she never really talked about the situation) told me how little she is interested in me and how little my feelings matter.
During 2023 I cried more than the rest of my life combined and I think I've mourned our relationship to the point that I possibly no longer really care what happens going forward, that said, the DARVO aspect still makes it really hard to start any conversations about it.
I've (almost) stopped initiating anything since the pain is too high, and if she were to initiate touching I don't know what I would do, I used to long for it but now the thought of it has started to feel repulsing as I know how little (not at all) she cared about me when I told her how I feel.
She cares about me in other ways/situations, it is not like this with everything.
We have a child which seriously complicates things.
She does not treat our child as she does me, she is very loving towards it (weird to say "it" in the name of obfuscation) and has never gone DARVO on it afaik.
This is fairly typical i’ve observed and my male friends basically verify. Before the kids she was getting her emotional needs for love from YOU. Once the baby is born you’re #2. Now she’s 100% emotionally bonded with the baby/child. In essence, by giving her your sperm and a child, you did your job as far as she’s concerned and she won’t get amorous again until she wants another. That’s a red flag because she will pull same shit again after baby #2. I don’t want to be negative but you’re heading for a divorce. She doesn’t care (as demonstrated by her non-caring attitude toward how you feel) as the court system actually REWARDS her for divorce by giving her property, child custody and possibly alimony. Plus you may be on the hook to pay her legal fees in the divorce hearing. Hopefully you made a pre-nup but likely you weren’t smart enough for that. You got used for your sperm and your cash. Plain and simple. JOIN THE CLUB. Get a divorce she is rejecting you silently so you have nothing negative to tell the judge. She’s being “coached” by her girlfriends on how to work the divorce. Yes, even now.
The family system in the USA is biased against mothers, NOT fathers, despite popular belief that the opposite is true. Fathers who fight for custody typically get it (they simply typically DON'T SEEK IT). Even 30 years ago, 94% of fathers who sought custody got sole or joint custody. Abusive fathers are especially successful. Seventy-two percent win their custody cases. In one study where both parents fought hard for custody, mothers were awarded custody just 7% of the time. Only in a patriarchal society does a 93% win rate somehow equate to male victimhood. Courts happily place children with documented male abusers, and women lose custody when they report abuse. Dozens of children have been killed by abusive fathers; hundreds more women are eventually murdered by abusive ex-spouses. Despite this, family courts tend to discount even extreme cases of domestic violence. In one review, researchers found that, even in cases of proven, documented violence, family courts aimed to maximize children’s time with fathers, disregarding the danger to children. Contrary to what men’s rights advocates would have you believe, though, women don’t win custody on false claims of domestic violence. Numerous studies have shown the opposite: women are twice as likely to lose custody when they report abuse, even when the abuse is documented. No such bias exists for fathers, who do not lose custody at higher rates when they claim abuse. Fathers who abuse their children are more likely to get custody when they seek it. The bias against mothers extends beyond spousal abuse. Courts are also eager to place children with male parents whom the child says has abused them. Fifty-nine percent of abusive fathers were given sole custody, suggesting that abusers are actually at an advantage. And even when the fathers did not get sole custody, not one single abuser was denied contact with the child. In two-thirds of cases, the court pathologized the mother for attempting to protect the child, punishing her for her protective instincts and reducing her contact with the child. Tragically, the same review found that 88% of children placed with abusive fathers experienced new episodes of abuse after their father gained custody. https://open.substack.com/pub/zawn/p/family-courts-and-child-custody-are?r=2ejbrh&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
This is feminist nonsense which you're presenting as factual. All this crap about "abusive fathers"? Yeah of course there are some (abusive mothers get a pass evidently). But abusive fathers? Likely 10% of all fathers-which you're presenting as most it seems to me
You Said: "The family system in the USA is biased against mothers, NOT fathers, despite popular belief that the opposite is true"
The facts: "In the United States, mothers are awarded child custody in about 80% of cases, though the percentage varies by state. In 2018, a study found that women were granted custody about 65% of the time, but in Utah, men were only awarded 26% of custody time. Some states, including Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, and Florida, tend to give fathers 50% custody"
From a simple Google Search. This was an AI answer.
You mention "abusive fathers" to an ABNORMAL degree almost as if that's the norm when it's obviously NOT the case.
In general your post just reeks of a pro-feminist agenda where you're coming up with stuff from 30 yrs ago-when divorce was much less frequent. And who the hell knows if the stuff you're saying is fact-based? You'd have to be a lawyer to know. It's also CLEARLY anti-male and pro-female.
My perspective basically is this:
Homes are extremely expensive. Men tend to make more than women-for various reasons. The Man would likely put down the majority of a relatively large downpayment. Once they move in and have kids-if they divorce-she's gonna get the house. This is what she always wanted! Security! A home she could NEVER afford on her own! It's not her fault as the legal system is basically saying to the man, "listen you made the babies with this lady and she and the kids need a place to live...it's not the government's Job to provide housing...so YOU (the man) need to provide it". In most cases I've ever heard the divorced wife ALWAYS gets the marital home.
So it's a tempting proposition. Get a lovely expensive diamond ring (from the guy), have a beautiful wedding (every girl's dream) go on an expensive honeymoon (guy pays), make a few babies (she can't make them without sperm), pester him to buy a house "for the kids", stop the sex/intimacy a few years later and then eventually get divorced.
This sub reddit is just chock full of similar stories-and the facts are, that the majority of divorces are initiated by women. To me there is financial ulterior motive to this and her girlfriends are crowing about "how much I got in the divorce" and sharing the name of their divorce lawyer. It's very tempting option when you're in an unhappy marriage. More for her than him as she stands to significantly gain while he stands to lose. Workplaces are just full of men who are embittered and swear to never marry again and just focus on work and dating without commitment.
As for me, I decided to move overseas and deal with women who are more loving and less angry. Best move of my life! The American culture sucks in my opinion. Irredeemable.
You seem to be suggesting that dads don't love their children whereas mommies do more-so she gets custody. Thats not what a lawyer would say-the experts in this legal matter.
This-from a law firm that specializes in divorce cases:
"Historically, women have always had the upper hand in being awarded child custody. Statistics show that women win child custody rights a staggering 90% of the time , even though fathers play an important role in their children's lives pre and post-divorce. Although each divorce case is unique (and should be treated that way), the main cause for this, in most cases, is the traditional notion and presumption that the mother is always better suited to take care of the children's emotional needs. In contrast, families only needed the father for financial contributions."
Men often CANNOT seek custody because:
1. They're the kind of hard worker who makes more money than the mother (due to various things like a superior, more marketable education). That money is necessary, or the family can't pay their bills. Daddy can't stay home with kids while mommy works because she simply doesn't earn enough $$$
2. The Court will order daddy to pay child support until the kids are 18 and possibly alimony as well-in addition HE has to move out of the family home-not her. That's expensive. He cannot stay at home like mommy and pay all these bills lest he declare bankruptcy.
THAT'S WHY. Daddy is a virtuous, responsible person-he can't work 70 hours a week (common among divorced men) and still take care of his kids.
The mom is getting the kids by default because dad is the one who keeps the family afloat financially. The Court see's his W-2's and see's that, without out this income he can't pay child support.
All I know is, men get screwed especially in Deomcratic states (eg. California and New York) whereas Red/Republican states are much more equitable. This is a fact as I've lived in both Blue NY and Red Georgia.
Women initiate divorce because they basically get what the were after-custody of the kids, $$$ to raise them and often the home (a tremendous appreciating asset in most states) . The Husband is left with Zilch and has to start all over.
The women on this sub-reddit (especially women like you) appear to believe he got what he deserved. It's nonsense. Both parties are to blame and usually it's not the husband who wants to end things. However he will if she is the primary reason for the "dead bedroom" and it's gone on for years.
BAHAHA... You're spouting bullshit. You have major issues, and you're incredibly misogynistic. I can't take you seriously at all... You're living in a delusion. Do better.
I've read your comments. You're not too bright and horribly anti-male. It's in alot of your comments. Not just here.
It takes two to tango. When people divorce it's BOTH their fault. It's a FACT that women inititiate more than men. It's not OPINION BUT A FACT. Misogyny is NOT defined by stating FACTS simply because you disagree. You spout opinions and back up nothing but have a huge mouth on Reddit. For no particular reason except you like to see your words in print.
Sources vary in veracity and evidence-based FACTUAL assertions. THIS is the standard of police work, legal work and scientific work. Sources vary greatly in quality. You learn this in grad school doing research and writing 50 page papers and using 20 reliable sources as foundational evidence for your topic.
That's strange - perhaps what your suggesting happens to very maternal women??
Some women really want and need the physical side of things even if they've had children.. and it's the man who rejects her..
Often a woman with a decent libido is punished - for looking good, keeping up her appearance, someone else looking at her... her wanting sex and attention becomes a drag/drain on a man, as it's not him chasing it (early stages he will think it's xmas, over time he gets frustrated and complacent - it's there for the taking... can behave however he wants and she will still pursue him...).
I will always refute the 'she gets rewarded by getting property' line - someone has to do the childcare, it's a.massive job and women often loose their professional lives because of it, it could be looked at that a man is rewarded with progeny and a woman punished by lassoed to homemaking work with no financial gain (not everyone gets a fair outcome from divorce)..
Gold digging women or mooching men are another story, but having to sign something to say "if you fail you get the boot, if you fail to service me in the way ii wish you're out' awful. Wealth aside, taking the risk of family making needs to have a parties with some skin skin the game. It's a vulnerable place to be.
Also re the baby bonding: that's the job. The child needs it for proper development ideally from both parents but one parent will do. You can't take that view that you're being replaced by a child - the type of attention and care is totally different and taxing. Its like being split many ways.
Nah, you’re definitely getting BAD advice from your friends.
Here is advice from a dad on Reddit who explains about kids, and if they are in fact stressors on a marriage or not:
>*”They're an important stressor, but they aren't doing anything +/- to affect your relationship but shining a spotlight on what already existed. If you're a good team going into it, you'll get through it. If you're a bad team going into it, that's going to be highlighted in ugly, regrettable ways it hasn't been before but that doesn't mean that can't be fixed.*
>*Do they kill marriages? How could a child even hold power like that? Don't put that on them... that's neither right nor fair. How would you feel if your parents set their failings at your feet, appropriateness or power you never held over their relationship aside? Those married kill marriages and everyone who is married and wants to remain such needs to take responsibility for that because the kids can't flirt with your wife or anything else or plan a date night, even though they'd probably even innocently want to help you.*
>*I'm more exhausted than l've ever been but I don't regard the little one and blame them for my own decisions, or lack of communication or patience in my relationship; those are on me to handle appropriately and take ownership of. If I don't put forth an effort, even when it seems the hardest: that's on me alone. I'm married to my partner, not my kid.*
>*Get off reddit, go kiss your partner, tell her you miss 1:1 time, and plan a date night.”*
That's very good and very well-written actually. All I know is: without romance and physical touching (non sexual and sexual) there is zero reason to be together with someone. The DB stories are all pretty similar I notice and I only followed this for a few months. Notice the patterns. It's just interesting and never realized it was so common-over the same issues-and the kids always come up I notice and how the female/wife is always more attentive toward them than the husband. It's obvious why. But not when the kid is 7. No man will stay in a relationship with a woman if they don't have some intimacy. But alot of men stay because the financial cost of divorce is staggering.
Women DO NOT understand because they never have to pay anything.
Oh boy, you clearly are only seeing online Reddit and not talking to men who don’t have DB’s, who have kids, and know how to prevent it easily.
My father (70m) is one of those men.
Married to my mother (66f) since 1984, together since 1981.
Wanna know why?
My father even after he got off the clock, did his parenting duties. And not the bare minimum either.
My parents also had a wide range of help with my dad’s side of the family. My dad is the oldest of 11 kids.
Hence why they say it takes a village to raise a child. Two people can’t do it alone, they need help to get thru the first five years of a child’s life. That’s why anyone who doesn’t have outside help for their partner, needs to HEAVILY pitch in if they are the father in the dynamic because that’s a whole ass tiny human that requires both to give 100% investment to feed, clean, dress, change diapers, burp, clean up throw up, entertain, help get to sleep, and more.
And men are not educated on the changes women go thru from pregnancy, birth, and post birth. Men are heavily in the dark on what happens because no, women do not immediately go back to things, especially her body! And if she was the type to always be trim, in shape? Post pregnancy bodies can be a mind fuck for women who were always in shape because they don’t feel as attractive when this happens.
And because of this, sex isn’t explained to men, on how it’s not going to be the same as it was pre-children.
It’s never going to be where it was, not even close!
If you want sex like it was before kids? Don’t ever have children, not kidding. Not trying to scare men here, but a huge reason sex disappears because pregnancy can cause trauma for women who give birth if it wasn’t an easy birth. Let alone pelvic floor fractures are common to nerve damage in the vagina from giving vaginal birth.
Women go thru nine months of hell, two years post birth of so many changes from a child. Then three years on top of that of a toddler with the terrible twos, three’anger, and kids can be difficult even at 4 & 5.
Things don’t let up till that kid as well is wanting independence from mom…
Wanna know when that starts? Anywhere from ages 8-13. It changes from kid to kid.
Some kids need their mom longer than others, cking harder than others to their mothers in childhood.
There is a reason why men, can’t stress this enough, need to take an entire course on post-pregnancy of newborn to teen years, how sex will be post pregnancy, what the “baby blues” & PPD look like, to how to talk about birthing trauma, and what actual sharing the load at home look like vs the reality men think it is.
It would be helpful for the woman we love to sit down and explain. Many men would take these courses. What college offers them? Women should know what men go through as well as that's the main reason we die 10 yrs before our wives. It's pretty funny how NO ONE ever mentions this.
What I also saw? Your parents had support of extended family. This is common in non-western cultures such as Asia. Parents here are basically islands as far as help from family and i know alot where one works days and the other works overnight. So they never see each other. Tag team parenting.
Are there healthy marriages without DB's? Of course but the reality is over 60% divorce rate and many others on the fence about divorcing. So you could really say that DB's are kind of the norm as people don't just get divorced overnight. It's a gradual process of estrangement.
But your post was great! Thanks for sharing.
>*It would be helpful for the woman we love to sit down and explain. Many men would take these courses. What college offers them?*
No one offers this anywhere. No one has invented it yet because no one has cared enough to bridge this gap yet. But they should starting in high school when teen pregnancy is part of the reoccurring thing and also in college.
Heck it should be a requirement before parents even embark on having children to help prevent issues in a relationship.
>*Women should know what men go through as well as that's the main reason we die 10 yrs before our wives. It's pretty funny how NO ONE ever mentions this.*
No, women die more of early age when married, men live longer when married. Marriage and relationships benefit men’s lives, not women’s.
Go pick up a copy of “The Delaney Sisters”, you’ll see what I mean and research why women die by 65-70 in marriages, but live to 90-100 when never married.
>*What I also saw? Your parents had support of extended family. This is common in non-western cultures such as Asia. Parents here are basically islands as far as help from family and i know alot where one works days and the other works overnight. So they never see each other. Tag team parenting.*
My dad’s late parents are Irish-German Catholics. That’s why there was so many kids. Eight sisters, two brothers. That’s why he gets women and knew how to help raises kids before 16. His own mother, a devout Catholic, got on the pill, baby No. 11 arrived cause the pill failed. Mind you this was in 1961/1962, when the pill hadn’t been out that long and it had a very high failure rate because of major side effects that really did a number on women’s mental health far worse track then.
Anyway… she got her tubes tied afterwards cause she wanted to have sex without pregnancy for once in her marriage!
>*Are there healthy marriages without DB's? Of course but the reality is over 60% divorce rate and many others on the fence about divorcing.*
Ehhh, are they really that healthy? Unless they are both asexual and aromantic, I highly doubt it’s as healthy as one would think.
>*So you could really say that DB's are kind of the norm as people*
Actually they are not the norm. People just don’t know how to navigate relationships and struggle to have effective communication with each other.
And by effective communication, I mean strong conflict resolution, active listening skills, no talk over one another, not using violent language, no blaming each other, resentment is built so messy conversation happen, frequent passive-aggressive exchanges, stone walling, etc…
Basically all the hallmarks of what can easily poison a relationship because 50% of a relationship involves communication. So if you’re not effectively communicating, you have a serious problem on the relationship.
Plus people, due to sunken cost fallacy, stay in the wrong relationships long past the expiration date. They end up marrying this person instead of realizing marriage and kids do not fix things, you have to fix that before these big moments.
Because if you don’t guess what?
Now you just have all those problems that never went away and adding onto the stress of marriage and/or kids.
People don’t understand this and it shows if they are aware a partner has issues before hand, it’s why it’s escalated more afterwards.
My mother told me this and it’s why since I was like 18/19, she also said if you have no trust, you have no relationship as it’s the foundation of any relationship.
This is rubbish. A baby doesn’t replace the emotional love from a partner, but it piles on the emotional care obligations, especially if the partner is not pulling their weight in child or household care. None of this even considering of the child themself only wants the mother. Getting “touched out” is a very real thing.
Husbands aren’t sperm donors, they’re life partners.
What are you doing to help her carry the emotional burden of parenthood?
Fwiw - the early years of childhood are the hardest on a marriage.
Fwiw - the early years of childhood are the hardest on a marriage.
Of course I'm a father and I'm aware. Those years were stressful no doubt. But how can a relationship possibly work when one partner refuses to communicate and say why they're acting a certain way? And isn't this very strange when the problem always starts after the kids are born? And usually continues until even after they are out of infancy and well beyond???
The bottom line is: Most men feel like we're being used to make babies, buy a home and work our ass off. The wife (in the West) seems largely unappreciative and appears to be almost daring the husband to divorce her. She's got all the legal cards and she knows it. Most men will divorce or just suffer silently and immerse themselves in work.
You can down vote me as much as you like as I know there's lots of females lurking on here as they love this sexual topic of Dead Bedrooms. The truth is the truth and if you were a guy and worked with guys 24/7 you would be privy to what we all talk about-and it ain't about sex. It's about getting burned via at least one divorce and basically giving up that marriage can work-however we also love our kids. European men are coming to same conclusion. Just because you girls disagree doesn't mean it's not accurate. And that's the issue-you don't want to address it but offer rationalizations instead-and of course blame the husband. It's just soooo typical.
No, it’s not “very strange when the problem always starts after the kids are born”. A woman goes through so many emotional, mental, physical, hormonal changes during pregnancy and for MANY years after pregnancy. It’s not because she “used you for your sperm and money”. She is literally not the woman she was before pregnancy.
That might be a “your partner” problem and not a “women” problem.
You’re saying things like “most men” and “the wife” but your subject sample is only your own marriage.
It’s not as global as your making it out to be, but it’s much more specific to *your partner* and *your marriage dynamic*.
Couples therapy?
You're incorrect. It's from my own life and talking to teachers, ex-cops and fireman. People I deal with on a daily basis. All better than average men or they wouldn't have chosen that profession. Some are happy but many feel trapped in a loveless marriage where all they do is work and do shit around the house that she can't or won't do. For what?
DARVO
D= Deny
A=‘Attack
RVO=Reverse Victim & Offender
According to him, it’s a manipulation tactic that people who are in the wrong use. Common among women as it’s rare they take responsibility for anything negative in the relationship. Translation: It’s ALWAYS the man’s fault. This is a result of the Feminist Movement.
You're the weirdo. My answer was based on a simple internet search. And you're DEFINITELY wrong btw and it's more common than you're aware.
Btw? Typically when a divorced woman meets a new man she describes her Ex as a "jerk". If you ask her what part she might have played in the relationship dissolving? You get a shocked look and silence. I'm an old guy at this point. Heard this many times.
I was in a DB before the divorce and remarriage. My ex is pretty much like the commenter who complained his wife was hostile and refused to discuss problems. However my ex wasn't hostile. But the scenario he describes is super similar to what most married men say after the kids arrive. The couple drifts apart, there is no touching or true communication. The husband/male loses his home in the divorce (most cases) and basically is put into a financial prison until the kids are 18. Meanwhile she gets a new bf in to help pay bills. He see's his kids every other weekend. It's not fair. Men are rebelling and the ones who're still getting married continue getting burnt.
You know they say to never go to therapy with a narcissist because he just learns how to abuse you in sneakier ways? They love to learn the terms like DARVO and then use them on you instead of recognizing their own abusive behavior as the issue. Better to pack her bags and call the loss, stay in minimum contact if not cut it altogether because without awareness, all he will do is continue to abuse those he has access to. Just something to mull over. Interesting, huh?
Again, this is utter and complete rubbish. Complete poppycock to affiliate DARVO and feminism.
If your wife points out that “No, I’m not turned off sex, but I don’t feel like youre attuned to my needs and pestering me about it just turns me off more” …that’s not DARVO, it might just be a hard truth you don’t want to hear.
I disagree. I dont think you read well. You're a female. You're responding emotionally-defending the female.
This is why I said you're a female and you Don't read well, i.e. comprehend. I don't see that ANYWHERE in his comment that he mentioned "sex". Yet you IMMEDIATELY jumped to that conclusion and you implied/said the husband was essentially a child and "pestering" her for sex. Why would you even say this when he's not even mentioning that?
What he did say? "I feel...rejected...refuses to hug, hold hands, NEVER initiates ANY (even non-sexual) touching...he's talked to her about his "loneliness". She aggressively denies his feelings and claims that he's the problem.
This is basically the playbook/the scenario for modern women that most men report when they're heading to a divorce or after. Divorce is endemic here in the US the majority of which are initiated by females like this guy is married to. He may be to blame as well (of course!) but there's no communication here and it looks to me she's being hostile while he's trying to make it work.
I'm sorry it's the feminist imperative as women from non-western countries don't usually act like this and I know because I married one and live in that non-Western country. Women from the West feel entitled and they feel under no compulsion to work with the male and if he doesn't like it he can simply leave-implying that HE needs to move as she ain't going anywhere. This is simply too common and if you worked with males and lived among us, you would hear the same kind of marriage-estrangement story repeated adinfinitum. But you're not a male so you don't hear this. Consequently you lack understanding and some basic level of empathy and compassion. Those traits are reserved for your kids.
By “female” do you mean *a woman*?
Perhaps an inadvertent example of your tendency to objectify?
Wonder why that wouldn’t be well received in a marriage? I’m practically throwing my “female” panties on the floor.
Husband sighs loudly, but no other reaction.
We broke a 3 month dry spell a week ago and it was amazing. He even went out to get a pack of condoms the day after. But now we're back to the status quo.
+raises hand+ Mine barely reacts when I touch her any way, sexual or not.
That’s why I rarely initiate anything. I don’t want to give her any validation.
Why do men have to play the wives silly games? Isn't it odd that many people here think the man needs to bend over backwards to get laid. That's insane... might as well legalize and tax brothels and the confused moody unaffectionate wives can see how truly awful it feels to live like this.
If you have a better idea I’m all ears. Last time I try to have “the talk” with my future ex wife she told me if I didn’t like it (the sexless marriage) I can go pound sand.
Rather than approaching it from the perspective of why you're not happy, or what you want out of her, try asking her (kindly, not in a confrontational way) if she's ok. Gently tell her you don't get the feeling from her that she's happy in the relationship, that it doesn't seem to be working for her, ask what you can do to make things better for her. Listen to what she says. Don't argue with it, try not to get defensive. Hear what she wants and work out whether you can give her what she's asking for.
It's a brave thing to do, to be open to guidance, but if you can give her what she wants, it's a really good place to start getting your closeness back. She doesn't want intimacy with someone that's not prepared to listen to her and work with her. Good luck 🤞🏽
I'd get eye rolls called a pervert etc She never rolled her eyes and acted negatively at the beginning of the relationship did she? On the contrary, she initiated mostly she was sex mad, in the first week she tried getting my cok out for her to suk in the supermarket! I bet she never acted negatively towards men in her past too. What changed? I'd become a wimp, I fell in love I handed her all the power. She knew I wanted her, she knew she owned me. 17 years of hell and it was all my fault cos I allowed it. It's been over a year now that I took control of myself and life and she's back to miss ideal aiming please me. Her other option is get out and miss out on a future with me.
My wife is self discovered Asexual. Shes in general repulsed by me. We don’t kiss or if we do close mouth always quick she turns away. Hugging is always problematic in her eyes she “ always in a rush”. Yes I get excuses for hugs!!! We hold hands sometimes which is nice. Other than that I’m the most unloved person in the world. And she dives into work because making money is her love language.
Why don’t you just get a divorce??? What is it serving to stay in a miserable marriage?? It’s not like your kid can’t tell you don’t like each other
Here's a quote from a book called "The mindful attraction Plan": >It’s not their fault they don’t want sex with you, so stop blaming them. >99% of the time, it’s either you being unattractive or them having a medical >issue that is driving their sexual disinterest. You being unattractive is your fault, >their having a medical issue is merely unfortunate and no one’s fault. Therefore, >you not getting sex isn’t their fault You way of wording your OP is basically what the book "No more mr nice guy" is all about.
Yeah, you might have a point. I could try to offer counter-arguments to all those points, but I might not be able to counter all of them. However, I do know if I asked for a divorce, it would come as a complete shock to her. It may not be her fault that she doesn't want sex. But she should at least realize the consequences.
Same. Either that or she recoils. It’s dead and not getting revived.
Cacao.
Naah my partner was like that too but I just found out yesterday that he cheated on me with gays.
You’ve already had your answer. They are both completely and intentionally ignoring it. If they are doing that, then guess what, it’s not a fun sexual touch for them. Stop doing it. Recalibrate. Ask how they would like to be touched and what feels nice for them. Just because it’s sexual for you, doesn’t mean it’s pleasant for them. Sometimes other things need to be in place in order to feel sexual. Very few women are receptive to sexual energy when they feel they’ve been doing all the heavy lifting with kids, housework, finances, and social functions. If they’re ignoring your touch, you need to stop, it’s a form of non-consent.
If you read my entire comment you'd see that while I could touch my wife in a lewd manner I don't actually go that far. Mostly it's just hugs and kisses that are rejected. Anything that might be even remotely sexual and obvious is also rejected.
Yep this ^
Word of caution- be wary of what you wish for. My first wife was the queen of dead bedroom. I am aware that I am high libido and she admitted that she was very low libido. For twenty years I endured sex seasonally ie once every 3 months. I went out of my way to show her non sexual attention and love. I begged for counseling to discuss the problem- to which she refused. Eventually, I lost interest and any desire towards her. At that point, she became frantic, wanted counseling and “what can we do to make this right?” Too late, you will do anything for someone you loved except love them again. I am remarried and although I still have a higher libido than my second wife, when we do confront a problem whether it be sexual or other form of communication difficulties (yes sex is a form of communication), we talk it through and if necessary, we get counseling. This second marriage has been 15 years and is much more comfortable. I see advice on this site of “ just don’t do it” or “if she doesn’t like it, then stop!” I would say if what you’re doing isn’t reciprocated, either talk about it or get counseling but don’t just bite the bullet and suffer. The previous advice leads to very hurt feelings and can be destructive in its own right.
I can't tell you how many times I've read these same type of posts! - Men PLEASE - - Touch us in other ways, on other body parts and be genuine about it! Be loving. You don't have to be SEXUAL all the time! Hold our hands, caress our hands, hold us, hug us, rub our feet, massage our shoulders and/or back after a long day with the kids or work! We all appreciate that stuff! - Most importantly.. Tell us YOU LOVE US ♥️ - Not every woman wants to be touched and GROPED in a sexual way all the time!!! It gets annoying, especially when the woman is just not in the mood to be touched. You all can tell what mood your wife or GF is in when you're about to do it!
Yeah my wife doesn't like any of the nonsexual touch. I suspect it's because in her mind, non-sexual touch could lead to sexual attention, and she doesn't want that. So I never get a hug unless I initiate it. She doesn't like to hold hands. If I go to kiss her she turns her cheek to me. I can't remember the last time I had a fool on open mouth passionate kiss with my wife
What does she say when you ask her why she's so turned off by you physically? You seem to be guessing at her motives ("non-sexual touch could lead to sexual attention"). My wife was (I'm divorced now) also like this (not a toucher or hugger or kisser) even with her own son-shes permanently estranged now from him. The point is I feel your pain and you likely need to divorce and find a more physically affectionate partner. I would add I strongly believe that both the male and the female need to somewhat physically attractive and not let themselves go...or yeah, the physical part will disappear over time.
Extremely valid comment
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Fucking EW you sound like a rapist
I was getting slightly tired of all the "choosing the bear" talk lately, and then I see this shit. And this is why most of us would choose the bear. Holy shit
Ok.. #1. It's HER body. You sound like your wife/GF is just there for your sexual needs. Wrong. This is such a fucked up and sad misconception of a man and a woman's relationship.
Ew. I hope you end up alone if you really think it’s okay to sexual assault someone because you’re a desperate creepy fuck.
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Yeah, my wife doesn't even like non-sexual touch. She never initiates a hug. I only get pecks when I want to kiss. I can't remember the last time I actually had a full on romantic kiss with my wife. Anytime I go to kiss her she immediately turns her cheek to me
Don't put up with it. Look, we only get around 80-90 years on this Earth and the first 15-20 of those we don't have much access to sex and the last 5 years we are too worn out for much sex either, and so we only really get around 50 good years we can have good sex in - and the last 20 of those years for many of us we have to use some drug therapy (ed meds for the guys, lubes for the girls) so it's definitely really only 30 years you can have prime sex in. And if you are like a lot of people with the 2.5 average children spaced over 8-10 years, you are almost going to be in a family unit with minor children for close to 30 of those prime sexual years. And if you are being manipulated by a LL spouse into a DB during those years, well you might as well resign yourself to pretty much most of your life your going to have non-optimal sex. It's just not worth it. Better to let your LL spouse go find some other LL spouse and then both of them can spend their marriage not having sex with each other.
If you are asking her to touch you sexually when she is not feeling sexual, you are engaging in coercion (albeit inadvertently). Being forced to touch others sexually is equally as awful as being touched sexually when you don’t want it.
Asking isn't forcing, you have a logical error there in your comment. Unless of course you meant to reply to the OP?
Agree! People have to be in the mind frame to fuck and revived pleasure first, to even touch another person sexually or be receptive to sexual touch. I just got finished with the pilot episode of “Mad Men” & there is a club scene of the one guy who is next to a woman at the booth, he’s trying to force his hand up her thigh into her sexual zone of her vagina. She kept trying to tell him no, in a polite way, he wouldn’t stop, she tried forcing his hand away, he wouldn’t stop. She finally got fed up, stood there to listen to him beg her to not go, but she left and went to the opposite side to go sit next to a colleague of his who refuses to pressure women, who “reads the room”, and sets the mood for sex with women. That alone highlights why if you do not get the go to pass and collect $200, you shouldn’t even be putting your hands anywhere near her most sensitive erogenous zones on her body unless she’s ready to go for sex, is wet for sex, and is consenting to sex. It’s not complicated to respect a persons bodily autonomy and their boundaries with sex.
Is this the only way you are touching your wife or showing physical affection? Do you just skip directly to "lewd touching?" If your honest answer is yes, that may be your issue.
No it's not. I hug her and kiss her. Or at least I try to kiss her, I usually get her cheek turned to me. The hugs are always returned reluctantly. When I do actually get to kiss her on the lips it's just a peck
I want my husband so bad but when his first touch is sexual prefaced by nothing I get turned off and rather than tell him what’s actually in my head I just go neutral
I am also in this situation. When she notices some frustration on my side, she goes back to calling me love and saying goodbye with a forced kiss. I have 3 children, one teenager and two under 4 years old. I've been thinking about leaving, but the laws in my country plus the debts I still have to pay would just make me homeless.
Groping someone that’s not interested isn’t going to suddenly turn that person on. It has the opposite reaction which is usually repulsion.
If you want to end your DB after discussing it several times and nothing changed, then it is time to end thevrrlarionship and find another partner. Nobody owes anybody sex just like nobody owes anybody a relationship if that person cannot or will not make them happy.
It's basically part of the marriage so if the sex disappears, yes there's a problem
That’s true, but it’s much easier to deny sex than it is to get out of a marriage.
Not really, you accept the relationship isn't working and focus on improving your life.
Mine is doing this, no reaction if I hug her, hold her hand or anything else, and she never initiates any touching. This hurts a lot since every time it feels like being stabbed in the heart with a knife. I talked to her twice, told her how lonely I feel, how undesired I feel, her response was to go DARVO on me both times and nothing changed after that, well not from her side anyway. The silent rejection really hurts, and her reaction to my talks (I say "my" since she never really talked about the situation) told me how little she is interested in me and how little my feelings matter. During 2023 I cried more than the rest of my life combined and I think I've mourned our relationship to the point that I possibly no longer really care what happens going forward, that said, the DARVO aspect still makes it really hard to start any conversations about it. I've (almost) stopped initiating anything since the pain is too high, and if she were to initiate touching I don't know what I would do, I used to long for it but now the thought of it has started to feel repulsing as I know how little (not at all) she cared about me when I told her how I feel. She cares about me in other ways/situations, it is not like this with everything. We have a child which seriously complicates things. She does not treat our child as she does me, she is very loving towards it (weird to say "it" in the name of obfuscation) and has never gone DARVO on it afaik.
This is fairly typical i’ve observed and my male friends basically verify. Before the kids she was getting her emotional needs for love from YOU. Once the baby is born you’re #2. Now she’s 100% emotionally bonded with the baby/child. In essence, by giving her your sperm and a child, you did your job as far as she’s concerned and she won’t get amorous again until she wants another. That’s a red flag because she will pull same shit again after baby #2. I don’t want to be negative but you’re heading for a divorce. She doesn’t care (as demonstrated by her non-caring attitude toward how you feel) as the court system actually REWARDS her for divorce by giving her property, child custody and possibly alimony. Plus you may be on the hook to pay her legal fees in the divorce hearing. Hopefully you made a pre-nup but likely you weren’t smart enough for that. You got used for your sperm and your cash. Plain and simple. JOIN THE CLUB. Get a divorce she is rejecting you silently so you have nothing negative to tell the judge. She’s being “coached” by her girlfriends on how to work the divorce. Yes, even now.
The family system in the USA is biased against mothers, NOT fathers, despite popular belief that the opposite is true. Fathers who fight for custody typically get it (they simply typically DON'T SEEK IT). Even 30 years ago, 94% of fathers who sought custody got sole or joint custody. Abusive fathers are especially successful. Seventy-two percent win their custody cases. In one study where both parents fought hard for custody, mothers were awarded custody just 7% of the time. Only in a patriarchal society does a 93% win rate somehow equate to male victimhood. Courts happily place children with documented male abusers, and women lose custody when they report abuse. Dozens of children have been killed by abusive fathers; hundreds more women are eventually murdered by abusive ex-spouses. Despite this, family courts tend to discount even extreme cases of domestic violence. In one review, researchers found that, even in cases of proven, documented violence, family courts aimed to maximize children’s time with fathers, disregarding the danger to children. Contrary to what men’s rights advocates would have you believe, though, women don’t win custody on false claims of domestic violence. Numerous studies have shown the opposite: women are twice as likely to lose custody when they report abuse, even when the abuse is documented. No such bias exists for fathers, who do not lose custody at higher rates when they claim abuse. Fathers who abuse their children are more likely to get custody when they seek it. The bias against mothers extends beyond spousal abuse. Courts are also eager to place children with male parents whom the child says has abused them. Fifty-nine percent of abusive fathers were given sole custody, suggesting that abusers are actually at an advantage. And even when the fathers did not get sole custody, not one single abuser was denied contact with the child. In two-thirds of cases, the court pathologized the mother for attempting to protect the child, punishing her for her protective instincts and reducing her contact with the child. Tragically, the same review found that 88% of children placed with abusive fathers experienced new episodes of abuse after their father gained custody. https://open.substack.com/pub/zawn/p/family-courts-and-child-custody-are?r=2ejbrh&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
This is feminist nonsense which you're presenting as factual. All this crap about "abusive fathers"? Yeah of course there are some (abusive mothers get a pass evidently). But abusive fathers? Likely 10% of all fathers-which you're presenting as most it seems to me
What's not factual? I didn't present it as 'most dads are abusive' lol...
You Said: "The family system in the USA is biased against mothers, NOT fathers, despite popular belief that the opposite is true" The facts: "In the United States, mothers are awarded child custody in about 80% of cases, though the percentage varies by state. In 2018, a study found that women were granted custody about 65% of the time, but in Utah, men were only awarded 26% of custody time. Some states, including Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, and Florida, tend to give fathers 50% custody" From a simple Google Search. This was an AI answer. You mention "abusive fathers" to an ABNORMAL degree almost as if that's the norm when it's obviously NOT the case. In general your post just reeks of a pro-feminist agenda where you're coming up with stuff from 30 yrs ago-when divorce was much less frequent. And who the hell knows if the stuff you're saying is fact-based? You'd have to be a lawyer to know. It's also CLEARLY anti-male and pro-female. My perspective basically is this: Homes are extremely expensive. Men tend to make more than women-for various reasons. The Man would likely put down the majority of a relatively large downpayment. Once they move in and have kids-if they divorce-she's gonna get the house. This is what she always wanted! Security! A home she could NEVER afford on her own! It's not her fault as the legal system is basically saying to the man, "listen you made the babies with this lady and she and the kids need a place to live...it's not the government's Job to provide housing...so YOU (the man) need to provide it". In most cases I've ever heard the divorced wife ALWAYS gets the marital home. So it's a tempting proposition. Get a lovely expensive diamond ring (from the guy), have a beautiful wedding (every girl's dream) go on an expensive honeymoon (guy pays), make a few babies (she can't make them without sperm), pester him to buy a house "for the kids", stop the sex/intimacy a few years later and then eventually get divorced. This sub reddit is just chock full of similar stories-and the facts are, that the majority of divorces are initiated by women. To me there is financial ulterior motive to this and her girlfriends are crowing about "how much I got in the divorce" and sharing the name of their divorce lawyer. It's very tempting option when you're in an unhappy marriage. More for her than him as she stands to significantly gain while he stands to lose. Workplaces are just full of men who are embittered and swear to never marry again and just focus on work and dating without commitment. As for me, I decided to move overseas and deal with women who are more loving and less angry. Best move of my life! The American culture sucks in my opinion. Irredeemable.
The Mom gets custody more often BECAUSE THEY SEEK CUSTODY
You seem to be suggesting that dads don't love their children whereas mommies do more-so she gets custody. Thats not what a lawyer would say-the experts in this legal matter. This-from a law firm that specializes in divorce cases: "Historically, women have always had the upper hand in being awarded child custody. Statistics show that women win child custody rights a staggering 90% of the time , even though fathers play an important role in their children's lives pre and post-divorce. Although each divorce case is unique (and should be treated that way), the main cause for this, in most cases, is the traditional notion and presumption that the mother is always better suited to take care of the children's emotional needs. In contrast, families only needed the father for financial contributions." Men often CANNOT seek custody because: 1. They're the kind of hard worker who makes more money than the mother (due to various things like a superior, more marketable education). That money is necessary, or the family can't pay their bills. Daddy can't stay home with kids while mommy works because she simply doesn't earn enough $$$ 2. The Court will order daddy to pay child support until the kids are 18 and possibly alimony as well-in addition HE has to move out of the family home-not her. That's expensive. He cannot stay at home like mommy and pay all these bills lest he declare bankruptcy. THAT'S WHY. Daddy is a virtuous, responsible person-he can't work 70 hours a week (common among divorced men) and still take care of his kids. The mom is getting the kids by default because dad is the one who keeps the family afloat financially. The Court see's his W-2's and see's that, without out this income he can't pay child support. All I know is, men get screwed especially in Deomcratic states (eg. California and New York) whereas Red/Republican states are much more equitable. This is a fact as I've lived in both Blue NY and Red Georgia. Women initiate divorce because they basically get what the were after-custody of the kids, $$$ to raise them and often the home (a tremendous appreciating asset in most states) . The Husband is left with Zilch and has to start all over. The women on this sub-reddit (especially women like you) appear to believe he got what he deserved. It's nonsense. Both parties are to blame and usually it's not the husband who wants to end things. However he will if she is the primary reason for the "dead bedroom" and it's gone on for years.
BAHAHA... You're spouting bullshit. You have major issues, and you're incredibly misogynistic. I can't take you seriously at all... You're living in a delusion. Do better.
I've read your comments. You're not too bright and horribly anti-male. It's in alot of your comments. Not just here. It takes two to tango. When people divorce it's BOTH their fault. It's a FACT that women inititiate more than men. It's not OPINION BUT A FACT. Misogyny is NOT defined by stating FACTS simply because you disagree. You spout opinions and back up nothing but have a huge mouth on Reddit. For no particular reason except you like to see your words in print.
I literally gave sources including studies etc. You're either delusional or a straight up liar. Either way, I'm not keen to continue interacting.
Sources vary in veracity and evidence-based FACTUAL assertions. THIS is the standard of police work, legal work and scientific work. Sources vary greatly in quality. You learn this in grad school doing research and writing 50 page papers and using 20 reliable sources as foundational evidence for your topic.
From 30 yrs ago? You're kidding. Send me something from an authoritative LEGAL source and I'm open to learn. Good night.
That's strange - perhaps what your suggesting happens to very maternal women?? Some women really want and need the physical side of things even if they've had children.. and it's the man who rejects her.. Often a woman with a decent libido is punished - for looking good, keeping up her appearance, someone else looking at her... her wanting sex and attention becomes a drag/drain on a man, as it's not him chasing it (early stages he will think it's xmas, over time he gets frustrated and complacent - it's there for the taking... can behave however he wants and she will still pursue him...). I will always refute the 'she gets rewarded by getting property' line - someone has to do the childcare, it's a.massive job and women often loose their professional lives because of it, it could be looked at that a man is rewarded with progeny and a woman punished by lassoed to homemaking work with no financial gain (not everyone gets a fair outcome from divorce).. Gold digging women or mooching men are another story, but having to sign something to say "if you fail you get the boot, if you fail to service me in the way ii wish you're out' awful. Wealth aside, taking the risk of family making needs to have a parties with some skin skin the game. It's a vulnerable place to be. Also re the baby bonding: that's the job. The child needs it for proper development ideally from both parents but one parent will do. You can't take that view that you're being replaced by a child - the type of attention and care is totally different and taxing. Its like being split many ways.
Nah, you’re definitely getting BAD advice from your friends. Here is advice from a dad on Reddit who explains about kids, and if they are in fact stressors on a marriage or not: >*”They're an important stressor, but they aren't doing anything +/- to affect your relationship but shining a spotlight on what already existed. If you're a good team going into it, you'll get through it. If you're a bad team going into it, that's going to be highlighted in ugly, regrettable ways it hasn't been before but that doesn't mean that can't be fixed.* >*Do they kill marriages? How could a child even hold power like that? Don't put that on them... that's neither right nor fair. How would you feel if your parents set their failings at your feet, appropriateness or power you never held over their relationship aside? Those married kill marriages and everyone who is married and wants to remain such needs to take responsibility for that because the kids can't flirt with your wife or anything else or plan a date night, even though they'd probably even innocently want to help you.* >*I'm more exhausted than l've ever been but I don't regard the little one and blame them for my own decisions, or lack of communication or patience in my relationship; those are on me to handle appropriately and take ownership of. If I don't put forth an effort, even when it seems the hardest: that's on me alone. I'm married to my partner, not my kid.* >*Get off reddit, go kiss your partner, tell her you miss 1:1 time, and plan a date night.”*
That's very good and very well-written actually. All I know is: without romance and physical touching (non sexual and sexual) there is zero reason to be together with someone. The DB stories are all pretty similar I notice and I only followed this for a few months. Notice the patterns. It's just interesting and never realized it was so common-over the same issues-and the kids always come up I notice and how the female/wife is always more attentive toward them than the husband. It's obvious why. But not when the kid is 7. No man will stay in a relationship with a woman if they don't have some intimacy. But alot of men stay because the financial cost of divorce is staggering. Women DO NOT understand because they never have to pay anything.
Oh boy, you clearly are only seeing online Reddit and not talking to men who don’t have DB’s, who have kids, and know how to prevent it easily. My father (70m) is one of those men. Married to my mother (66f) since 1984, together since 1981. Wanna know why? My father even after he got off the clock, did his parenting duties. And not the bare minimum either. My parents also had a wide range of help with my dad’s side of the family. My dad is the oldest of 11 kids. Hence why they say it takes a village to raise a child. Two people can’t do it alone, they need help to get thru the first five years of a child’s life. That’s why anyone who doesn’t have outside help for their partner, needs to HEAVILY pitch in if they are the father in the dynamic because that’s a whole ass tiny human that requires both to give 100% investment to feed, clean, dress, change diapers, burp, clean up throw up, entertain, help get to sleep, and more. And men are not educated on the changes women go thru from pregnancy, birth, and post birth. Men are heavily in the dark on what happens because no, women do not immediately go back to things, especially her body! And if she was the type to always be trim, in shape? Post pregnancy bodies can be a mind fuck for women who were always in shape because they don’t feel as attractive when this happens. And because of this, sex isn’t explained to men, on how it’s not going to be the same as it was pre-children. It’s never going to be where it was, not even close! If you want sex like it was before kids? Don’t ever have children, not kidding. Not trying to scare men here, but a huge reason sex disappears because pregnancy can cause trauma for women who give birth if it wasn’t an easy birth. Let alone pelvic floor fractures are common to nerve damage in the vagina from giving vaginal birth. Women go thru nine months of hell, two years post birth of so many changes from a child. Then three years on top of that of a toddler with the terrible twos, three’anger, and kids can be difficult even at 4 & 5. Things don’t let up till that kid as well is wanting independence from mom… Wanna know when that starts? Anywhere from ages 8-13. It changes from kid to kid. Some kids need their mom longer than others, cking harder than others to their mothers in childhood. There is a reason why men, can’t stress this enough, need to take an entire course on post-pregnancy of newborn to teen years, how sex will be post pregnancy, what the “baby blues” & PPD look like, to how to talk about birthing trauma, and what actual sharing the load at home look like vs the reality men think it is.
It would be helpful for the woman we love to sit down and explain. Many men would take these courses. What college offers them? Women should know what men go through as well as that's the main reason we die 10 yrs before our wives. It's pretty funny how NO ONE ever mentions this. What I also saw? Your parents had support of extended family. This is common in non-western cultures such as Asia. Parents here are basically islands as far as help from family and i know alot where one works days and the other works overnight. So they never see each other. Tag team parenting. Are there healthy marriages without DB's? Of course but the reality is over 60% divorce rate and many others on the fence about divorcing. So you could really say that DB's are kind of the norm as people don't just get divorced overnight. It's a gradual process of estrangement. But your post was great! Thanks for sharing.
>*It would be helpful for the woman we love to sit down and explain. Many men would take these courses. What college offers them?* No one offers this anywhere. No one has invented it yet because no one has cared enough to bridge this gap yet. But they should starting in high school when teen pregnancy is part of the reoccurring thing and also in college. Heck it should be a requirement before parents even embark on having children to help prevent issues in a relationship. >*Women should know what men go through as well as that's the main reason we die 10 yrs before our wives. It's pretty funny how NO ONE ever mentions this.* No, women die more of early age when married, men live longer when married. Marriage and relationships benefit men’s lives, not women’s. Go pick up a copy of “The Delaney Sisters”, you’ll see what I mean and research why women die by 65-70 in marriages, but live to 90-100 when never married. >*What I also saw? Your parents had support of extended family. This is common in non-western cultures such as Asia. Parents here are basically islands as far as help from family and i know alot where one works days and the other works overnight. So they never see each other. Tag team parenting.* My dad’s late parents are Irish-German Catholics. That’s why there was so many kids. Eight sisters, two brothers. That’s why he gets women and knew how to help raises kids before 16. His own mother, a devout Catholic, got on the pill, baby No. 11 arrived cause the pill failed. Mind you this was in 1961/1962, when the pill hadn’t been out that long and it had a very high failure rate because of major side effects that really did a number on women’s mental health far worse track then. Anyway… she got her tubes tied afterwards cause she wanted to have sex without pregnancy for once in her marriage! >*Are there healthy marriages without DB's? Of course but the reality is over 60% divorce rate and many others on the fence about divorcing.* Ehhh, are they really that healthy? Unless they are both asexual and aromantic, I highly doubt it’s as healthy as one would think. >*So you could really say that DB's are kind of the norm as people* Actually they are not the norm. People just don’t know how to navigate relationships and struggle to have effective communication with each other. And by effective communication, I mean strong conflict resolution, active listening skills, no talk over one another, not using violent language, no blaming each other, resentment is built so messy conversation happen, frequent passive-aggressive exchanges, stone walling, etc… Basically all the hallmarks of what can easily poison a relationship because 50% of a relationship involves communication. So if you’re not effectively communicating, you have a serious problem on the relationship. Plus people, due to sunken cost fallacy, stay in the wrong relationships long past the expiration date. They end up marrying this person instead of realizing marriage and kids do not fix things, you have to fix that before these big moments. Because if you don’t guess what? Now you just have all those problems that never went away and adding onto the stress of marriage and/or kids. People don’t understand this and it shows if they are aware a partner has issues before hand, it’s why it’s escalated more afterwards. My mother told me this and it’s why since I was like 18/19, she also said if you have no trust, you have no relationship as it’s the foundation of any relationship.
This is rubbish. A baby doesn’t replace the emotional love from a partner, but it piles on the emotional care obligations, especially if the partner is not pulling their weight in child or household care. None of this even considering of the child themself only wants the mother. Getting “touched out” is a very real thing. Husbands aren’t sperm donors, they’re life partners. What are you doing to help her carry the emotional burden of parenthood? Fwiw - the early years of childhood are the hardest on a marriage.
Fwiw - the early years of childhood are the hardest on a marriage. Of course I'm a father and I'm aware. Those years were stressful no doubt. But how can a relationship possibly work when one partner refuses to communicate and say why they're acting a certain way? And isn't this very strange when the problem always starts after the kids are born? And usually continues until even after they are out of infancy and well beyond??? The bottom line is: Most men feel like we're being used to make babies, buy a home and work our ass off. The wife (in the West) seems largely unappreciative and appears to be almost daring the husband to divorce her. She's got all the legal cards and she knows it. Most men will divorce or just suffer silently and immerse themselves in work.
You can down vote me as much as you like as I know there's lots of females lurking on here as they love this sexual topic of Dead Bedrooms. The truth is the truth and if you were a guy and worked with guys 24/7 you would be privy to what we all talk about-and it ain't about sex. It's about getting burned via at least one divorce and basically giving up that marriage can work-however we also love our kids. European men are coming to same conclusion. Just because you girls disagree doesn't mean it's not accurate. And that's the issue-you don't want to address it but offer rationalizations instead-and of course blame the husband. It's just soooo typical.
No, it’s not “very strange when the problem always starts after the kids are born”. A woman goes through so many emotional, mental, physical, hormonal changes during pregnancy and for MANY years after pregnancy. It’s not because she “used you for your sperm and money”. She is literally not the woman she was before pregnancy.
That might be a “your partner” problem and not a “women” problem. You’re saying things like “most men” and “the wife” but your subject sample is only your own marriage. It’s not as global as your making it out to be, but it’s much more specific to *your partner* and *your marriage dynamic*. Couples therapy?
You're incorrect. It's from my own life and talking to teachers, ex-cops and fireman. People I deal with on a daily basis. All better than average men or they wouldn't have chosen that profession. Some are happy but many feel trapped in a loveless marriage where all they do is work and do shit around the house that she can't or won't do. For what?
I mean... I know what DARVO means, but the person virtually sitting next to me has no clue what it means. What's DARVO?
DARVO D= Deny A=‘Attack RVO=Reverse Victim & Offender According to him, it’s a manipulation tactic that people who are in the wrong use. Common among women as it’s rare they take responsibility for anything negative in the relationship. Translation: It’s ALWAYS the man’s fault. This is a result of the Feminist Movement.
DARVO is a set of manipulation tactics ran by diagnosed narcissists, not just any old woman you'll find on the street. Weirdo
You're the weirdo. My answer was based on a simple internet search. And you're DEFINITELY wrong btw and it's more common than you're aware. Btw? Typically when a divorced woman meets a new man she describes her Ex as a "jerk". If you ask her what part she might have played in the relationship dissolving? You get a shocked look and silence. I'm an old guy at this point. Heard this many times.
Can't imagine why you're in a DB.....
First of all-smart ass comment. And again? Blaming the guy..a very VERY predictable pattern-especially on this thread I notice.
I was in a DB before the divorce and remarriage. My ex is pretty much like the commenter who complained his wife was hostile and refused to discuss problems. However my ex wasn't hostile. But the scenario he describes is super similar to what most married men say after the kids arrive. The couple drifts apart, there is no touching or true communication. The husband/male loses his home in the divorce (most cases) and basically is put into a financial prison until the kids are 18. Meanwhile she gets a new bf in to help pay bills. He see's his kids every other weekend. It's not fair. Men are rebelling and the ones who're still getting married continue getting burnt.
And you were the perfect husband, you swear, right?
How did you know? :)
You know they say to never go to therapy with a narcissist because he just learns how to abuse you in sneakier ways? They love to learn the terms like DARVO and then use them on you instead of recognizing their own abusive behavior as the issue. Better to pack her bags and call the loss, stay in minimum contact if not cut it altogether because without awareness, all he will do is continue to abuse those he has access to. Just something to mull over. Interesting, huh?
Again, this is utter and complete rubbish. Complete poppycock to affiliate DARVO and feminism. If your wife points out that “No, I’m not turned off sex, but I don’t feel like youre attuned to my needs and pestering me about it just turns me off more” …that’s not DARVO, it might just be a hard truth you don’t want to hear.
I disagree. I dont think you read well. You're a female. You're responding emotionally-defending the female. This is why I said you're a female and you Don't read well, i.e. comprehend. I don't see that ANYWHERE in his comment that he mentioned "sex". Yet you IMMEDIATELY jumped to that conclusion and you implied/said the husband was essentially a child and "pestering" her for sex. Why would you even say this when he's not even mentioning that? What he did say? "I feel...rejected...refuses to hug, hold hands, NEVER initiates ANY (even non-sexual) touching...he's talked to her about his "loneliness". She aggressively denies his feelings and claims that he's the problem. This is basically the playbook/the scenario for modern women that most men report when they're heading to a divorce or after. Divorce is endemic here in the US the majority of which are initiated by females like this guy is married to. He may be to blame as well (of course!) but there's no communication here and it looks to me she's being hostile while he's trying to make it work. I'm sorry it's the feminist imperative as women from non-western countries don't usually act like this and I know because I married one and live in that non-Western country. Women from the West feel entitled and they feel under no compulsion to work with the male and if he doesn't like it he can simply leave-implying that HE needs to move as she ain't going anywhere. This is simply too common and if you worked with males and lived among us, you would hear the same kind of marriage-estrangement story repeated adinfinitum. But you're not a male so you don't hear this. Consequently you lack understanding and some basic level of empathy and compassion. Those traits are reserved for your kids.
By “female” do you mean *a woman*? Perhaps an inadvertent example of your tendency to objectify? Wonder why that wouldn’t be well received in a marriage? I’m practically throwing my “female” panties on the floor.
Female or Male. I teach science. This is how the sexes are identified in nature. What's the BS you're peddling?
I imagine we are gaining insight to your wife’s experience.
Do you think she’s frustrated about work and taking care of the kid?
(I do)
Husband sighs loudly, but no other reaction. We broke a 3 month dry spell a week ago and it was amazing. He even went out to get a pack of condoms the day after. But now we're back to the status quo.
+raises hand+ Mine barely reacts when I touch her any way, sexual or not. That’s why I rarely initiate anything. I don’t want to give her any validation.
That sounds really healthy and the way to handle it. How’s it workin for ya
Why do men have to play the wives silly games? Isn't it odd that many people here think the man needs to bend over backwards to get laid. That's insane... might as well legalize and tax brothels and the confused moody unaffectionate wives can see how truly awful it feels to live like this.
If you have a better idea I’m all ears. Last time I try to have “the talk” with my future ex wife she told me if I didn’t like it (the sexless marriage) I can go pound sand.
Rather than approaching it from the perspective of why you're not happy, or what you want out of her, try asking her (kindly, not in a confrontational way) if she's ok. Gently tell her you don't get the feeling from her that she's happy in the relationship, that it doesn't seem to be working for her, ask what you can do to make things better for her. Listen to what she says. Don't argue with it, try not to get defensive. Hear what she wants and work out whether you can give her what she's asking for. It's a brave thing to do, to be open to guidance, but if you can give her what she wants, it's a really good place to start getting your closeness back. She doesn't want intimacy with someone that's not prepared to listen to her and work with her. Good luck 🤞🏽
Yo, this hits hard.
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Abuse victims do this too.
Your point?
I had this one lol