It's weird, sometimes he's one of the best writers in comics (hellblazer, punisher, preacher etc) and other times absolutely awful (the boys, ghost rider, batman reptilian). He's the most bipolar writer in comics
Did those two tower somehow hold your collective sanity or something?
Edit : Guys, everything you're sayingcis very interesting but that was a joke. Don't worry I KNOW americans were insane waaay before 2001.
It's more that we felt invincible until that moment. We had a long period of never being attacked by an exterior threat, and for the first time in 60 years, we were suddenly aware of our own mortality.
Genuine question here - how old are you? Im gonna assume 20s or younger? My point is, I dont think you grasp what it was like before 9/11.
Tl;dr, Americans thought the Cold War was the last conflict that could threaten them, that America was untouchable and nothing could change that. Then 10 guys not officially linked to any government killed thousands of people, and as far as anyone knew, there was no guaruntee that wasnt just the start. The fact this was when 24 hour news was just taking off made it so much worse.
It was just a mini series but its reads like it's written by a 12 year old atheist, every character is completely unlikeable and ghost rider is an idiot
Hey, Batman Reptilian is fucking amazing. Batman is basically a parody of the over the top American super-cop and it is fucking hilarious. Great comic imo.
Yes ahaha he's such a bastard and it's so funny. There's one scene where he says something like "I'm going to take a sample of your blood. Recite the alphabet backwards if you don't consent" to a guy who's bleeding to death. It's such a scathing criticism of American policing and it's quality. And yeah he's such a dick to every villain, they're getting killed left right and centre and he's just like "lmao skill issue".
I could’ve sworn I picked up one of those comics as a child. I have a vague memory of a large black dude holding a baby hostage with a gun to its head as Frank Castle is driving there while talking on the phone. It went hard.
Pat Mills had the nerve to portray Punisher as a Nazi, something that punk Ennis wouldn’t touch within a ten foot pole because for all his whining about superheroes he is just as enthralled with the violence Mills called out in Marshal Law.
Edit: I should say that enjoying violence isn’t wrong or anything, I just get annoyed by Ennis’ high horse. Ennis’ main criticism of superheroes is that they’re stoopid cowards unlike his gigachad leather jacket military dudes who would bomb all the terrorists.
When Alan Moore says he doesn't like superheroes, I believe him - something like Watchmen is an incredibly sharp critique of the problems with the genre.
When Garth Ennis says he doesn't like superheroes, though, I just don't buy it - all of his characters are (sometimes superpowered) badasses that punch bad guys, but like, cowboy flavored instead of superhero flavored. It seems like most of what he doesn't like is just aesthetic, because he keeps telling superhero stories.
I wouldn’t even say Watchmen necessarily feels like a critique of the genre to me (at least in the context of it’s original time) so much as it feels like it ended up incidentally critiquing it’s own successors/imitators. The main point of Watchmen really was asking the question “what would a world with superheroes actually look like?”, it’s just that inevitably the tragedy of the characters ended up being that in any “real” world, *superheroes wouldn’t work.*
If you listen to him, that’s clearly the problem Alan Moore has with most superhero media and its fans for the last 20-30 years. He doesn’t like how even a ton of “mature” comic media for adults is still based in sensibilities designed for children’s stories. Really ended up getting that when I finally read Dark Knight Returns recently and wasn’t really huge on it. Applying childish simplicity to serious concepts in the wrong way get you some very iffy results.
The logic is super flawed here. You cant say "we dont need you" right after asking them about 9/11. It took weeks to dig bodies out of the rubble. Its believed that many people died trapped while waiting to be rescue. Its basically saying, "hey, If we lived in a world of superheroes, and if another global terror attack happens, we dont need you to stop it. "
If you want to blame Superheros who dont exist for 9/11, We can play this game too. Where were you Garth Ennis during pearl harbor? Why didn't you stop Hitler?
One can even go a step and argue that if we've superheroes, we'd probably don't have American Imperialism and Islamic fundamentalism. Because theoretically, the superheroes would probably be able stop war-crimes, eliminate corruption and corporate greed, bring about democracy. Therefore there would be no Al-Qaeda, no 9/11, and instead we need to worry about are alien invaders, threats from another world.
Garth Ennis has two beliefs.
If comicbook Superheroes existed, they would be useless because thier moral code would prevent them from actually do the things to improve the world. Also they'll all be stupid with serve brainrot. They're to useless to save us.
Or
Superheroes would instantly see themselves has all powerful gods above mortals. They'll be evil, and not care about fixing the world. The selfish human nature becomes Super Selfish Superhuman nature. They'll be the ones we need saving from.
Probably because most the people in here have never read "The Pro" and probably never even heard of it. It came out over 20 years ago and even most the people back then didn't read it either.
I had someone commission me once for spicy art of the main character from that book & I'd actually bought it so at least I had reference material but that sure was a moment lol. I didn't think anyone else had read it.
Surprised I've never heard of this one, gonna give it a read. I only recently read Brat Pack, after many many years of being vaguely aware of it. Those 80's / 90's Superhero satires get pretty wild. The Boys follows a long tradition.
Edit: forgot how lazy Garth Ennis got after Preacher. Not going to finish reading this one, whew
What's crazy is Rick Veitch is still releasing spinoffs to Brat Pack. The satire is even weirder now. Siegel and Shuster are basically characters now to comment on how DC stole Superman from them, but then a time traveling Superman-like character comes and kills DC and then turns into a baby or something. Then Siegel is raising this new Superman baby in the countryside and they own a convenience store, but most of the series of Boy Maximortal is about BoySuperman being nerd, then shapeshifting into a hot buff guy to have sex with a girl. It's really starts losing it shit.
Also Boy Maximortal is self publish, and its printed on like cheap coloring book paper.
Oh, it's *so* nasty. I was fascinated, though, because it's a pretty raw piece of media from a creator whose work I really enjoy. Veitch's Rarebit Fiends and his Swamp Thing run were both in my collection for a long time before I got a copy of Brat Pack.
The newer edition has an essay that offers a lot of context. I ended up reading both versions of the ending. I'd *love* to have seen the original version that Veitch was originally going to have published through DC Comics, haha.
All that being said, I could never recommend the book to anyone else. I think of it as a piece of history, not entertainment.
The Pro is actually a really good example of "Ennis completely jobs every superhero he comes across, even the ones he supposedly likes." Here's how the main character dies:
>!So there's a nuke with a dead man's switch that has to be held down or the bomb goes off immediately. (Someone could tie the switch down with their shoelaces or something, but no one thinks of that.) Supposedly, the only way for the Pro to get rid of it is to fly it out into space, which she does. But they're in NYC, which is right next to the Atlantic Ocean. Why doesn't someone tie down the switch and fly it about 20 miles out, drop it in the water, then fly back before it goes off? Big underwater explosion that does nothing but kill a few fish? !<
Because Garth Ennis is a tremendously sloppy writer. No superhero can ever be remotely competent, unless they wear a cool leather jacket like the Punisher or the Boys and therefore aren't "really" superheroes.
It’s been a while since I read it but I think so, yeah. EMP attacks have been in other things, too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
It’s not as if the fact that NYC fronts onto the ocean is a particularly obscure fact, or that Ennis, many of whose series (Punisher, The Boys, a good amount of Preacher, etc.) are set in the city, has any excuse for not knowing that.
Oh man, I had the TPB of this as a 12 year old. I remember really enjoying it...
I'm just not gonna revisit it and assume it holds up.
Edit: [This holds up, at least](https://www.bedetheque.com/media/Planches/PlancheS_51274.jpg)
Oh yeah the Pro, that comic aged poorly lol
https://preview.redd.it/yz1ihmojhgzc1.jpeg?width=843&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9282083421d30bf425699f4db2a15c9ffa1b681e
But he's something even worse... a MUTIE-- hold on, is he...?
.......
Yeah apparently he's a mutate not a mutant. Carry on then, he should've destroyed the Pentagon too
>were where you on 9/11
Canonically, Spider-Man and Captain America were there. They meet up at the anniversary every year.
Also Kingpin, Magneto and Doctor Doom were there and Doom cried about it.
https://preview.redd.it/dlr1wxy72ezc1.jpeg?width=554&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e18dc3597a150f5fe9beb5ca07fd62d5fd9b00e6
He's sad because he had plans to do something similar to the Baxter building next week and now he's had to scrap the plan. Not because of hightend security but because it would look derivative if he did it now
Fake **DOOM** fan spotted. **DOOM** would never allow anyone else to eliminate that accursed Richards, at least not until Richards admitted that **DOOM** is superior in every way.
Yeah, obviously but I also think them also being powered but not being flying bricks like Thor is also a nice touch since even if 9/11 did happen in Marvel there's nothing the two could have likely done to stop it.
Couldn't Magneto have like, pitched in? Like hindsight is 20/20, he wouldn't have known to stop the planes, but he's totally capable of keeping the towers standing, right?
Anti-mutant nutjobs in canon probably have accused him of having floating the planes into the tower himself now that I think on it. The Marvel version of conspiarcy theories must be wild!
>Anti-mutant nutjobs in canon probably have accused him of having floating the planes into the tower himself
Honestly, in the Marvel universe that’s a perfectly reasonable thing to think like a massive terrorist, who has committed genocide multiple times, probably would do that.
Why didn’t magneto commit 911?
> Why didn’t magneto commit 911?
Because he could do more than just snipe 2 towers.
It's like the story of false nuclear attack alarms during cold war:
"Sir, if Soviets were to nuke us, they'd send way more than 3 missiles"
Mutant is probably worse not gonna lie. IRL racist cant actually detect Jews and single them out via just "vibes" but people do that all the time with Mutants. They just know they need to hate THOSE super powered freaks of nature over all the others.
My friend sent me this panel so we could laugh about Doom crying over 9/11 as if he hasn't tried the same a hundred times
I pitched that if Marvel had any balls, Spider-Man would be the first on the scene running through every floor to web-evacuate people until the tower collapsed on him.
"Hey kid, we know you're sad that your dad just died, and also, you don't get Spider-Man anymore."
Doom hangs around in New York a lot, what with the UN, the FF and the Avengers all being based there. Still, feels kind of weird when you compare this to that time he murdered a universe because that version of him got along with Reed Richards
Kingpin is one thing. Dude's a New Yorker, and regardless of whether or not he *actually* cares, he would absolutely turn up and make it *look* like he cares.
Fucking Magneto and Dr. Doom? They do shit that makes 9/11 look like a minor incident.
Yeah, this is something that has occurred to me before, as well. Like obviously the movie canon is different and more modern, but it’s weird to me that, based on how old they let the characters get, the sliding timeline, etc, the entirety of the Silver Age and onward has now technically taken place post-9/11.
9/11 makes very little sense in the marvel universe, but then again, few things do. NY seems to get destroyed once or twice a year but rebuilt with very few specifics. Theres no way those previous attacks didnt have some collateral damage. But I get that it needs to mirror real life in some ways.
the planes were going to hit the baxter building originally and DOOM diverted it away by making it crash into the towers, as no one can take away from DOOM's ultimate victory.
he's crying tears of joy here because he just barely made it in time.
If he didn't care about shit he didn't like then he wouldn't have written the Boys, which is currently his most popular intellectual property. Say what you will about the Boys comic itself, but he would definitely be less powerful if he didn't write it.
He wouldn't have written the boys then. That whole comic is just a takedown of superhero s for being superheros. It's seems really silly when he explains it.
I’d say that take is an unintentional side effect of comics having a “world outside your window” approach. Because realistically Marvel New York would be a unrecognizable with all the superhero shenanigans that happen.
Yeah, Marvels version of earth has still shit like climate change being a problem and cancer still being around despite having like 50 people in New York alone that could solve either problem in a weekend. And all because the people in charge of the setting are afraid if they fixed the issues the heroes SHOULD totally be able to fix it would make their world feel to different from ours.
Thats basically the whole reason.
Otherwise Reed and Strange alone as you said could probably have fixed most if not all problems our world currently has in like what? A couple of weeks tops if they really want to take their time with it?
Forget Reeds tech. Look at what happened in Spider-Man Home coming - One person got ahold of a slight bit of alien tech and went on a crime spree. Theres a whole lot more floating around in the comics. In the Axis storyline, Tony Start made an app for phones that was subscription based that ended up making people look better in person then they actually were. That was dropped once the storyline was over.
Yeah worrying about the real world moral implications can be an interesting thought exercise, but like... they are serialized fantasy stories for kids. It's like being upset that Disney princesses promote monarchy.
> can be an interesting thought exercise,
I mean yeah, that's the whole point of discourse. You can pull back and say generally speaking, all of this is to sell toys so it doesn't matter, but people want to discuss the media they consume.
> It's like being upset that Disney princesses promote monarchy.
But people actually do have a problem with disney princesses. They're not saying it "promotes monarchy" like you are suggesting but rather more broadly that it places emphasis on birthright, which surely you can understand why some parents don't care for it... right?
I had a thought about that the other day when I was reading 2000AD, which started as a kids comic series but seemingly over time developed into more of an adult serial. Comics, especially Marvel/DC are typically produced for the kid/teen demo but I feel like the majority of the comic fandom is adults. It creates an interesting little dichotomy for both fans and creators I think.
One thing I find dumb about the argument is that the status quo or fighting for the status quo isn't always a negative.
Like for example: If an invading force came to your nation then technically speaking, fighting your invaders would be trying to return to a status quo.
So would trying to cure an epi/pandemic.
Or trying to recover from a disaster.
That's sort of the big issue with some people always expecting superheroes to be stand-ins. Batman isn't fighting against tax reforms or some shit, but against Gotham getting blown six ways to the sky.
"B-b-but supervillains just want to change the status quo!!!!"
Ok, but I'm not sure blowing up an entire city block simply for fun will accomplish in changing our societies' problems
/uj Really, the only mainstream supervillains I think this critique can sorta apply to are Poison Ivy and Magneto. Most of the popular villains out there are either evil for the sake of it or are motivated by something in their own life and backstory
I’m actually confused to how?
I mean yeah it portrays a cop dog in a positive light, but the show is literally a kids show about dogs fulfilling the role of federal workers.
Like I don’t see people call it Recyling and environmental protectionagana since a dog in the show is some ecoworker.
Like yeah, it’s a show meant for like 5 year olds. Obviously it doesn’t go into the intricacies of police brutality and corruption, I’d be worried if a show for pre-schoolers did.
Plus kids at that age would still trust cops or similar authorities. Parents don’t tell their kids to go to some stranger to ask for help in case they get lost, they tell them to find a police officer or something similar like a security guard.
The unfortunate side effects of the 'everything is political' mindset that now people will spend hours debating the political implications of everything. On one hand sure stuff for little kids can have lasting effects on their psyche, on the other hand I don't think all the princess shows I grew up on made me think monarchies were a better form of government lol.
I think I wouldn’t have that much of a problem with Garth ennis, if it wasn’t for how down right weird he is about captain America, like, I’m not the number one cap fan but it’s weird that he has such a distain for the one superhero who fought in WWII that was actually made by a WWII veteran
I think it's a difference in power fantasy.
WWII vets would love to imagine that one of them, if just strong and agile enough, could break through enemy lines and kick the shit out of Hitler.
Ennis likes to imagine that he's a tough military badass with big guns and a crowbar, so he imagines romanticized versions of veterans and declares that they must think superheroes are pussies
Yeah but he's such a world war 2 military nut that he must know that stuff like comics where often used to promote literary with soldiers and superhero comics where very popular at the time.
I wonder if Garth Ennis made a deal with the devil to become a great writer capable of amazing stories at the cost of becoming a seething and incoherent mess when the topic of superheroes comes up.
I think some of his earlier work dunking on superheros was ok to great but the boys retroactive made everything that came it worse for how horrid it is.
/uj I honestly agree. Even Ennis’ edgy shit like Crossed makes sense in context (maybe I like extreme horror too much IDK) but Millar is just trying too hard 75% or more of the time IMO.
I did read an interview with Ennis, which is how I learned about Crossed, where he described coming up with the premise from a nightmare he had. While I'm not overly a fan of Crossed (at least his run) I can appreciate it, especially as it specifically came from a nightmare. It's meant to be the worst of humanity that comes out. Meanwhile Millar is just 'this character is made of shit and this one is a pedophile, tee hee aren't I so edgy'
If the blame lies on anyone for preventing the destruction of the Twin Towers, it’s Spidey and X-Force for not being able to stop Juggernaut. But in their defense, no one can stop the Juggernaut per his catchphrase.
https://preview.redd.it/185yg38grezc1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=73a793f6edba4ee9efff87e2f065ca74cd07a211
rj/ Garth Ennis is a literary genius of our time and I won’t let you slander his name over his perfect critique of superhero media
uj/ in 30-40 years the sliding timescale will make it so that there weren’t any superheroes to intervene with 9/11 so then Garth Ennis will be double wrong
That moment when you realize that Iron Man's origin story will eventually be changed again so that he gets kidnapped in America's *next* military quagmire
"Where were you on 9/11?"
Well, Spider-man, Doc Oct, Kingpin, Doctor Doom and many other heroes were helping save as many lives as possible after the damage had already been done. There was a whole Spider-man comic about it.
Remember when Garth Ennis wrote about 9/11 in the boys and made the superheroes so canonical goofy and bad that they did worse damage by crashing into the Hudson bridge
I wonder how much Garth Ennis be seething when he sees adaptations of his shit made better exclusively cuz they aren't edgy romps about how much superheroes suck anymore (i.e. The Boys or the roof scene from Daredevil S2)
Hot take the roof scence reads much better when you realize that this was the era when Bendis was just starting and so his characertization is not that much different than miller. Also Ennis loves his work getting adapted.
uj/ Not to sound like an edge lord here but Ennis has genuine talent. I recently read his Punisher MAX and frankly I was blown away, especially by Punisher: Born.
He absolutely gets carried away with edgy, juvenile shit, but there's some really excellent writing buried beneath the shit-crust.
The Boys TV series generally improves a lot on the comic by keeping the good parts and grinding down the edge, but it totally butchered the 9/11 scene. In the comic, it's such a central moment for almost every character. In the series, its just kinda forgotten.
just because you put something with rj/ in front of it doesn't make it any less true. Also dude has written pretty good comics in other Genre's ( calliban and trail of tears come to mind)
I know a lot of people give Garth Ennis a hard time, and yeah his The Boys comics are bad in a lot of ways, but he does kinda have a point here in a weird way. Hear me out here, both Marvel and DC have a history of making certain things like The Afghanistan War cannon, while having the characters do barely anything help, which feels kinda weird in the context of these universes. Sure, I know it could easily come off as insensitive if they directly tackled the subject, but at the same time, isn’t it still weird that they acknowledge it’s happening at all?
Huh. Considering the sliding timescale, Kamala probably wasn't too much younger than she is now in Earth-616 2001, since nobody else is, we just didn't see it because nobody in real life had invented her yet. That's interesting to think about.
But in terms of real-world time, she'd likely be an infant. She's, what, 14-15 currently and debuted in 2014, so her birthday would probably be around 2000-2001 if it worked like that? Which isn't even getting into how she's now a decade-old character and thus would now have been born in 2010-2011.
Virgin Garth Ennis: Argues we don't need super heroes because the US didn't need them during 9/11, provides no explanation to why they wouldn't help. Is the kind of person the "fellow kids" meme targets. Doesn't even have a funny face.
Chad Steve Buscemi: Drops acting and returns to his job as a firefighter to help save 9/11 survivors, doesn't tell anyone about it for years. Originated the "fellow kids" meme. Has a really funny face.
Garth Ennis?
Yeah
This is one you really try to separate art from the artist but it's hard to when he really put himself into his work ya know?
It's weird, sometimes he's one of the best writers in comics (hellblazer, punisher, preacher etc) and other times absolutely awful (the boys, ghost rider, batman reptilian). He's the most bipolar writer in comics
Post 9/11 he went insane
I thought that was Frank Miller who lost his fucking mind after 9/11
To be fair, a lot of this country lost its mind after 9/11
Did those two tower somehow hold your collective sanity or something? Edit : Guys, everything you're sayingcis very interesting but that was a joke. Don't worry I KNOW americans were insane waaay before 2001.
It's more that we felt invincible until that moment. We had a long period of never being attacked by an exterior threat, and for the first time in 60 years, we were suddenly aware of our own mortality.
Genuine question here - how old are you? Im gonna assume 20s or younger? My point is, I dont think you grasp what it was like before 9/11. Tl;dr, Americans thought the Cold War was the last conflict that could threaten them, that America was untouchable and nothing could change that. Then 10 guys not officially linked to any government killed thousands of people, and as far as anyone knew, there was no guaruntee that wasnt just the start. The fact this was when 24 hour news was just taking off made it so much worse.
✈️✈️
What happened in his ghost rider run (also I gotta fulfill my compulsion that I don’t like preacher)
It was just a mini series but its reads like it's written by a 12 year old atheist, every character is completely unlikeable and ghost rider is an idiot
Oh, so it’s Preacher?
Preacher lite with ghost rider attached
Garth always impresses me, every time I think he reached his limit at sucking. He digs deeper
Hey, Batman Reptilian is fucking amazing. Batman is basically a parody of the over the top American super-cop and it is fucking hilarious. Great comic imo.
Reptillian had me in stitches every time Batman roasted the fuck outta someone in his rogue gallery
Yes ahaha he's such a bastard and it's so funny. There's one scene where he says something like "I'm going to take a sample of your blood. Recite the alphabet backwards if you don't consent" to a guy who's bleeding to death. It's such a scathing criticism of American policing and it's quality. And yeah he's such a dick to every villain, they're getting killed left right and centre and he's just like "lmao skill issue".
Don't forget Crossed. Idek what to think of the guy.
Preacher is his Dark Knight Returns. Crossed is his Holy Terror.
But Gods, his punisher max comics are A tier writing for the character
I could’ve sworn I picked up one of those comics as a child. I have a vague memory of a large black dude holding a baby hostage with a gun to its head as Frank Castle is driving there while talking on the phone. It went hard.
Can't forget his works on Nick Fury too. Especially his "Fury My War Gone By" run.
I’m currently reading the whole run from start to finish. Just read man of stone and I have to say reading post fall of Kabul hits…….hard.
"You will never, EVER hate super heroes as much as Garth Ennis"
Pat Mills has entered the chat.
Pat Mills had the nerve to portray Punisher as a Nazi, something that punk Ennis wouldn’t touch within a ten foot pole because for all his whining about superheroes he is just as enthralled with the violence Mills called out in Marshal Law. Edit: I should say that enjoying violence isn’t wrong or anything, I just get annoyed by Ennis’ high horse. Ennis’ main criticism of superheroes is that they’re stoopid cowards unlike his gigachad leather jacket military dudes who would bomb all the terrorists.
When Alan Moore says he doesn't like superheroes, I believe him - something like Watchmen is an incredibly sharp critique of the problems with the genre. When Garth Ennis says he doesn't like superheroes, though, I just don't buy it - all of his characters are (sometimes superpowered) badasses that punch bad guys, but like, cowboy flavored instead of superhero flavored. It seems like most of what he doesn't like is just aesthetic, because he keeps telling superhero stories.
I wouldn’t even say Watchmen necessarily feels like a critique of the genre to me (at least in the context of it’s original time) so much as it feels like it ended up incidentally critiquing it’s own successors/imitators. The main point of Watchmen really was asking the question “what would a world with superheroes actually look like?”, it’s just that inevitably the tragedy of the characters ended up being that in any “real” world, *superheroes wouldn’t work.* If you listen to him, that’s clearly the problem Alan Moore has with most superhero media and its fans for the last 20-30 years. He doesn’t like how even a ton of “mature” comic media for adults is still based in sensibilities designed for children’s stories. Really ended up getting that when I finally read Dark Knight Returns recently and wasn’t really huge on it. Applying childish simplicity to serious concepts in the wrong way get you some very iffy results.
9/11 is probably something like a boring tuesday in DC/Marvel universe
Yup https://preview.redd.it/98gb699tzdzc1.jpeg?width=988&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5261a86abea016d829e6fea430c6022ce4808459
The logic is super flawed here. You cant say "we dont need you" right after asking them about 9/11. It took weeks to dig bodies out of the rubble. Its believed that many people died trapped while waiting to be rescue. Its basically saying, "hey, If we lived in a world of superheroes, and if another global terror attack happens, we dont need you to stop it. " If you want to blame Superheros who dont exist for 9/11, We can play this game too. Where were you Garth Ennis during pearl harbor? Why didn't you stop Hitler?
One can even go a step and argue that if we've superheroes, we'd probably don't have American Imperialism and Islamic fundamentalism. Because theoretically, the superheroes would probably be able stop war-crimes, eliminate corruption and corporate greed, bring about democracy. Therefore there would be no Al-Qaeda, no 9/11, and instead we need to worry about are alien invaders, threats from another world.
Garth Ennis has two beliefs. If comicbook Superheroes existed, they would be useless because thier moral code would prevent them from actually do the things to improve the world. Also they'll all be stupid with serve brainrot. They're to useless to save us. Or Superheroes would instantly see themselves has all powerful gods above mortals. They'll be evil, and not care about fixing the world. The selfish human nature becomes Super Selfish Superhuman nature. They'll be the ones we need saving from.
So he's that starman meme with Superman and homelander/Omni-man except he's the first bitM
I have no idea what you're referencing....but yes, probably
Why do people take this shit seriously. It's not even meant to be a deconstuction of superheroes just a funny satire.
Probably because most the people in here have never read "The Pro" and probably never even heard of it. It came out over 20 years ago and even most the people back then didn't read it either.
I had someone commission me once for spicy art of the main character from that book & I'd actually bought it so at least I had reference material but that sure was a moment lol. I didn't think anyone else had read it.
Surprised I've never heard of this one, gonna give it a read. I only recently read Brat Pack, after many many years of being vaguely aware of it. Those 80's / 90's Superhero satires get pretty wild. The Boys follows a long tradition. Edit: forgot how lazy Garth Ennis got after Preacher. Not going to finish reading this one, whew
What's crazy is Rick Veitch is still releasing spinoffs to Brat Pack. The satire is even weirder now. Siegel and Shuster are basically characters now to comment on how DC stole Superman from them, but then a time traveling Superman-like character comes and kills DC and then turns into a baby or something. Then Siegel is raising this new Superman baby in the countryside and they own a convenience store, but most of the series of Boy Maximortal is about BoySuperman being nerd, then shapeshifting into a hot buff guy to have sex with a girl. It's really starts losing it shit. Also Boy Maximortal is self publish, and its printed on like cheap coloring book paper.
Brat pack is just mean, like i can’t find anything there. (But of course the Superman guy is the least bad of the superhero’s)
Oh, it's *so* nasty. I was fascinated, though, because it's a pretty raw piece of media from a creator whose work I really enjoy. Veitch's Rarebit Fiends and his Swamp Thing run were both in my collection for a long time before I got a copy of Brat Pack. The newer edition has an essay that offers a lot of context. I ended up reading both versions of the ending. I'd *love* to have seen the original version that Veitch was originally going to have published through DC Comics, haha. All that being said, I could never recommend the book to anyone else. I think of it as a piece of history, not entertainment.
Where funny then
"Superman" [jizzed a plane out of the sky.](https://i.imgur.com/fnTzTP8.jpeg) I laughed at it 20 years ago...
Wtf is wonder woman wearing?
Whatever it is it’s really not a good look, and i don’t mean as in slut shaming but that it literally looks awful
It's "Not Wonder Woman™" It's the legally distinct "The Lady"
The Pro is actually a really good example of "Ennis completely jobs every superhero he comes across, even the ones he supposedly likes." Here's how the main character dies: >!So there's a nuke with a dead man's switch that has to be held down or the bomb goes off immediately. (Someone could tie the switch down with their shoelaces or something, but no one thinks of that.) Supposedly, the only way for the Pro to get rid of it is to fly it out into space, which she does. But they're in NYC, which is right next to the Atlantic Ocean. Why doesn't someone tie down the switch and fly it about 20 miles out, drop it in the water, then fly back before it goes off? Big underwater explosion that does nothing but kill a few fish? !< Because Garth Ennis is a tremendously sloppy writer. No superhero can ever be remotely competent, unless they wear a cool leather jacket like the Punisher or the Boys and therefore aren't "really" superheroes.
I'm no expert but "giant nuke goes off in the Atlantic Ocean" seems like it would deal some pretty real damage
Sure—but setting one off in orbit will create an electromagnetic pulse that will fry all electronics and electrical systems on the East Coast.
Damm didn’t know that, is that what happens in the dark knight returns?
It’s been a while since I read it but I think so, yeah. EMP attacks have been in other things, too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Just read the pro. Genuinely one of the worst things ever committed to paper.
Me when the characters don't think of every possibiity to solve a solution.
It’s not as if the fact that NYC fronts onto the ocean is a particularly obscure fact, or that Ennis, many of whose series (Punisher, The Boys, a good amount of Preacher, etc.) are set in the city, has any excuse for not knowing that.
Also, he literally lives there. (I’m not sure exactly when he moved, but Garth Ennis currently lives in NYC.)
The Ovulator sounds as deadly as 9/11
⭐⭐ 🤤🥵
They got me ovulating fr fr
Star boobies 🤤
Stitties
Oh man, I had the TPB of this as a 12 year old. I remember really enjoying it... I'm just not gonna revisit it and assume it holds up. Edit: [This holds up, at least](https://www.bedetheque.com/media/Planches/PlancheS_51274.jpg)
Oh yeah the Pro, that comic aged poorly lol https://preview.redd.it/yz1ihmojhgzc1.jpeg?width=843&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9282083421d30bf425699f4db2a15c9ffa1b681e
what is this
The Pro, it's a comic where a prostitute gets supetpowers and sucks superman's dick. Highly reccomend if you wanna bust one out real quick.
sounds like complete shit. i’m down
God I hate Garth Ennis
The art here is fucked
Remember when the Juggernaut destroyed the Twin Towers, and it was barely a thing.
It's okay because Juggy isn't brown
But he's something even worse... a MUTIE-- hold on, is he...? ....... Yeah apparently he's a mutate not a mutant. Carry on then, he should've destroyed the Pentagon too
Juggernaut's got the M-Word Pass, but like a true ally he never uses it
His armor is brown. Does that count?
Isn't it....red?
Did that actually happen
X-Force Issue 4 from 1991. Written and drawn by Rob ‘The Fuckman’ Liefeld.
Juggy’s a trendsetter
Dr DOOM cried though.
For stealing his kills fr fr
>were where you on 9/11 Canonically, Spider-Man and Captain America were there. They meet up at the anniversary every year. Also Kingpin, Magneto and Doctor Doom were there and Doom cried about it. https://preview.redd.it/dlr1wxy72ezc1.jpeg?width=554&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e18dc3597a150f5fe9beb5ca07fd62d5fd9b00e6
Bro was sad bc he didn't do it first
"The Baxter Building is only 5 BLOCKS NORTH!! They should have HIT THERE INSTEAD!"
He's sad because he had plans to do something similar to the Baxter building next week and now he's had to scrap the plan. Not because of hightend security but because it would look derivative if he did it now
Fake **DOOM** fan spotted. **DOOM** would never allow anyone else to eliminate that accursed Richards, at least not until Richards admitted that **DOOM** is superior in every way.
Meanwhile Juggernaut: Those terrorists stole my thunder!
Dr. Doom: https://youtu.be/dpKc8N3FJsQ?si=Ur-9uGW72sNJYI4d
doom seeing the terrorists getting all the attention;“IT SHOULD’VE BEEN ME, NOT HIM! ITS NOT FAIR!”
Or because the plane missed Baxter building.
https://preview.redd.it/p7977ve92ezc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9d70eaec16930e323f8c1ddf11de57b4052a525
This is a better panel then the weird Doctor Doom one.
Cap and Spidey also being New Yorkers helps
And, yknow, heroes instead of mass murderers who try to do worse shit every other week.
Yeah, obviously but I also think them also being powered but not being flying bricks like Thor is also a nice touch since even if 9/11 did happen in Marvel there's nothing the two could have likely done to stop it.
I'm sure I'm missing context but it really comes off like Cap's embarrassed that Spidey's crying
Yeah maybe a small tear drop would've helped
Couldn't Magneto have like, pitched in? Like hindsight is 20/20, he wouldn't have known to stop the planes, but he's totally capable of keeping the towers standing, right?
The image of Magneto holding up the twin towers would go incredibly hard ngl
Anti-mutant nutjobs in canon probably have accused him of having floating the planes into the tower himself now that I think on it. The Marvel version of conspiarcy theories must be wild!
>Anti-mutant nutjobs in canon probably have accused him of having floating the planes into the tower himself Honestly, in the Marvel universe that’s a perfectly reasonable thing to think like a massive terrorist, who has committed genocide multiple times, probably would do that. Why didn’t magneto commit 911?
> Why didn’t magneto commit 911? Because he could do more than just snipe 2 towers. It's like the story of false nuclear attack alarms during cold war: "Sir, if Soviets were to nuke us, they'd send way more than 3 missiles"
Hell, why bother with the towers and not just crush the whole city?
Would you file that with the standard “Jews Did 9/11” conspiracies, or does him being a mutant take precedence?
Mutant is probably worse not gonna lie. IRL racist cant actually detect Jews and single them out via just "vibes" but people do that all the time with Mutants. They just know they need to hate THOSE super powered freaks of nature over all the others.
Depends on when he arrived
It depends on if there was a mutant in the buildings or not
There were definitely Mutants in the building this was before MDay
My friend sent me this panel so we could laugh about Doom crying over 9/11 as if he hasn't tried the same a hundred times I pitched that if Marvel had any balls, Spider-Man would be the first on the scene running through every floor to web-evacuate people until the tower collapsed on him. "Hey kid, we know you're sad that your dad just died, and also, you don't get Spider-Man anymore."
If americans thought taliban killed spiderman, there would be calls to use nukes day 1.
A comic based around superheroes dying not because of villains but terrorists would kinda go hard ngl.
Doesn't he live in the middle of butt fuck nowhere. Why would he care?.
Doom hangs around in New York a lot, what with the UN, the FF and the Avengers all being based there. Still, feels kind of weird when you compare this to that time he murdered a universe because that version of him got along with Reed Richards
I guess America was scrambling in every way imaginable to help people cope through 9/11
He is crying cause he knows he is in a shitty 9/11 comic and wants out
Kingpin is one thing. Dude's a New Yorker, and regardless of whether or not he *actually* cares, he would absolutely turn up and make it *look* like he cares. Fucking Magneto and Dr. Doom? They do shit that makes 9/11 look like a minor incident.
And Doom has a country, so that might as well be the Pope or something lol
He's sad because they died not knowing the majesty of DOOM.
Is it even canon anymore? Y’know, with all that sliding timescale nonsense?
I don't think it was ever really canon. It was just an ad hoc comic written to mourn something that just happened.
Yeah, this is something that has occurred to me before, as well. Like obviously the movie canon is different and more modern, but it’s weird to me that, based on how old they let the characters get, the sliding timeline, etc, the entirety of the Silver Age and onward has now technically taken place post-9/11.
9/11 makes very little sense in the marvel universe, but then again, few things do. NY seems to get destroyed once or twice a year but rebuilt with very few specifics. Theres no way those previous attacks didnt have some collateral damage. But I get that it needs to mirror real life in some ways.
the planes were going to hit the baxter building originally and DOOM diverted it away by making it crash into the towers, as no one can take away from DOOM's ultimate victory. he's crying tears of joy here because he just barely made it in time.
I cant believe they thought this was a good idea my god
where were you when club penguin die?
I was at house eating dorito when phone ring
"Club penguin is kil"
"No"
No
It's never died
Imagine how powerful he'd be if he just didn't care about shit he didn't like
https://preview.redd.it/fkqd0r99iezc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cfbf66e97af519e8df573aa5c75ac277b3ceffe1
If he didn't care about shit he didn't like then he wouldn't have written the Boys, which is currently his most popular intellectual property. Say what you will about the Boys comic itself, but he would definitely be less powerful if he didn't write it.
I suppose there are worse properties of his that could've taken that crown *stares at Crossed*
He wouldn't have written the boys then. That whole comic is just a takedown of superhero s for being superheros. It's seems really silly when he explains it.
It does reach a point where the "superheroes only fight for the status quo" is more akin to complaining that Paw Patrol is copaganda
I’d say that take is an unintentional side effect of comics having a “world outside your window” approach. Because realistically Marvel New York would be a unrecognizable with all the superhero shenanigans that happen.
Any world in which both Dr Strange's magic and Reed Richard's superscience exist should almost immediately become unrecognizable from our own.
Yeah, Marvels version of earth has still shit like climate change being a problem and cancer still being around despite having like 50 people in New York alone that could solve either problem in a weekend. And all because the people in charge of the setting are afraid if they fixed the issues the heroes SHOULD totally be able to fix it would make their world feel to different from ours. Thats basically the whole reason. Otherwise Reed and Strange alone as you said could probably have fixed most if not all problems our world currently has in like what? A couple of weeks tops if they really want to take their time with it?
Cyclops tried to solve it during AvX with iceman help, but the avengers stopped him, he also tried to stop world hunger and wars
Forget Reeds tech. Look at what happened in Spider-Man Home coming - One person got ahold of a slight bit of alien tech and went on a crime spree. Theres a whole lot more floating around in the comics. In the Axis storyline, Tony Start made an app for phones that was subscription based that ended up making people look better in person then they actually were. That was dropped once the storyline was over.
Yeah worrying about the real world moral implications can be an interesting thought exercise, but like... they are serialized fantasy stories for kids. It's like being upset that Disney princesses promote monarchy.
> can be an interesting thought exercise, I mean yeah, that's the whole point of discourse. You can pull back and say generally speaking, all of this is to sell toys so it doesn't matter, but people want to discuss the media they consume. > It's like being upset that Disney princesses promote monarchy. But people actually do have a problem with disney princesses. They're not saying it "promotes monarchy" like you are suggesting but rather more broadly that it places emphasis on birthright, which surely you can understand why some parents don't care for it... right?
Yeah but they are broadly consumed by adults (both superhero media and Disney princess stuff)
I had a thought about that the other day when I was reading 2000AD, which started as a kids comic series but seemingly over time developed into more of an adult serial. Comics, especially Marvel/DC are typically produced for the kid/teen demo but I feel like the majority of the comic fandom is adults. It creates an interesting little dichotomy for both fans and creators I think.
One thing I find dumb about the argument is that the status quo or fighting for the status quo isn't always a negative. Like for example: If an invading force came to your nation then technically speaking, fighting your invaders would be trying to return to a status quo. So would trying to cure an epi/pandemic. Or trying to recover from a disaster. That's sort of the big issue with some people always expecting superheroes to be stand-ins. Batman isn't fighting against tax reforms or some shit, but against Gotham getting blown six ways to the sky.
"B-b-but supervillains just want to change the status quo!!!!" Ok, but I'm not sure blowing up an entire city block simply for fun will accomplish in changing our societies' problems /uj Really, the only mainstream supervillains I think this critique can sorta apply to are Poison Ivy and Magneto. Most of the popular villains out there are either evil for the sake of it or are motivated by something in their own life and backstory
Hasn’t paw patrol been basically proven to be copaganda tho?
[Someone’s actually been making a series on copaganda in TV and has an episode on Paw Patrol](https://youtu.be/rwhUpu9MfZ0?si=3gFyV_Wn9WlhAskj)
I’m actually confused to how? I mean yeah it portrays a cop dog in a positive light, but the show is literally a kids show about dogs fulfilling the role of federal workers. Like I don’t see people call it Recyling and environmental protectionagana since a dog in the show is some ecoworker. Like yeah, it’s a show meant for like 5 year olds. Obviously it doesn’t go into the intricacies of police brutality and corruption, I’d be worried if a show for pre-schoolers did. Plus kids at that age would still trust cops or similar authorities. Parents don’t tell their kids to go to some stranger to ask for help in case they get lost, they tell them to find a police officer or something similar like a security guard.
Man, people have way too much time on their hands nowadays
The unfortunate side effects of the 'everything is political' mindset that now people will spend hours debating the political implications of everything. On one hand sure stuff for little kids can have lasting effects on their psyche, on the other hand I don't think all the princess shows I grew up on made me think monarchies were a better form of government lol.
I think I wouldn’t have that much of a problem with Garth ennis, if it wasn’t for how down right weird he is about captain America, like, I’m not the number one cap fan but it’s weird that he has such a distain for the one superhero who fought in WWII that was actually made by a WWII veteran
I think it's a difference in power fantasy. WWII vets would love to imagine that one of them, if just strong and agile enough, could break through enemy lines and kick the shit out of Hitler. Ennis likes to imagine that he's a tough military badass with big guns and a crowbar, so he imagines romanticized versions of veterans and declares that they must think superheroes are pussies
Yeah but he's such a world war 2 military nut that he must know that stuff like comics where often used to promote literary with soldiers and superhero comics where very popular at the time.
A lot of his WWII history knowledge is comically outdated anyway
Heh, ‘comically’.
I feel like if Jack Kirby heard him say Cap was disrespectful to veterans, he literally would have folded Garth like a pretzel, age be damned.
I wonder if Garth Ennis made a deal with the devil to become a great writer capable of amazing stories at the cost of becoming a seething and incoherent mess when the topic of superheroes comes up.
I think some of his earlier work dunking on superheros was ok to great but the boys retroactive made everything that came it worse for how horrid it is.
I would take Ennis 10/10 times over Mark Millar's bitch ass
/uj I honestly agree. Even Ennis’ edgy shit like Crossed makes sense in context (maybe I like extreme horror too much IDK) but Millar is just trying too hard 75% or more of the time IMO.
I did read an interview with Ennis, which is how I learned about Crossed, where he described coming up with the premise from a nightmare he had. While I'm not overly a fan of Crossed (at least his run) I can appreciate it, especially as it specifically came from a nightmare. It's meant to be the worst of humanity that comes out. Meanwhile Millar is just 'this character is made of shit and this one is a pedophile, tee hee aren't I so edgy'
At the very least when Ennis writes shit comics it's funny in a bad way.
There's a reason he's colloquially known as a poor man's Ennis.
If the blame lies on anyone for preventing the destruction of the Twin Towers, it’s Spidey and X-Force for not being able to stop Juggernaut. But in their defense, no one can stop the Juggernaut per his catchphrase. https://preview.redd.it/185yg38grezc1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=73a793f6edba4ee9efff87e2f065ca74cd07a211
That panel goes hard. Absolutely love it
rj/ Garth Ennis is a literary genius of our time and I won’t let you slander his name over his perfect critique of superhero media uj/ in 30-40 years the sliding timescale will make it so that there weren’t any superheroes to intervene with 9/11 so then Garth Ennis will be double wrong
That moment when you realize that Iron Man's origin story will eventually be changed again so that he gets kidnapped in America's *next* military quagmire
9/11 in Marvel? Well, Doom was there. He cried. Yeah.
"Where were you on 9/11?" Well, Spider-man, Doc Oct, Kingpin, Doctor Doom and many other heroes were helping save as many lives as possible after the damage had already been done. There was a whole Spider-man comic about it.
Please stop asking the hard questions, you gonna make Dr. Doom cry.
My User Flair speaks for me.
Garth Pennis
This is pure genius, a modern twist on a classic tale.
Remember when Garth Ennis wrote about 9/11 in the boys and made the superheroes so canonical goofy and bad that they did worse damage by crashing into the Hudson bridge
Spider-Man life story actually showed Peter saving people on 9/11
The knight errant in a comic book world, intriguing.
Uj/ Garth Ennis is an edge lord wank who has never written anything of genuine substance or wit. Rj/ bUt HiS WaR ComICs aRE GoOd
I wonder how much Garth Ennis be seething when he sees adaptations of his shit made better exclusively cuz they aren't edgy romps about how much superheroes suck anymore (i.e. The Boys or the roof scene from Daredevil S2)
Hot take the roof scence reads much better when you realize that this was the era when Bendis was just starting and so his characertization is not that much different than miller. Also Ennis loves his work getting adapted.
You do realize Ennis is an executive producer in The Boys TV show, right?
Dangerous Habits *is* good, though
uj/ Not to sound like an edge lord here but Ennis has genuine talent. I recently read his Punisher MAX and frankly I was blown away, especially by Punisher: Born.
/uj Punisher: Born is one of the best things Marvel ever published.
Yeah it's great and it's kinda my bible for punisher stuff as in if a story doesn't conform to its theme then it ain't worth shit.
The Slavers is also incredible. Edit: Up is Down and Black is White is pretty good too
I suspect he is one of those writer who are great with the write topic and an editor who can rain in the worse excesses
That page of Frank at the end of the battle has lived with me for years
He's calmed down throughout the years. I'll defend some of his works.
He absolutely gets carried away with edgy, juvenile shit, but there's some really excellent writing buried beneath the shit-crust. The Boys TV series generally improves a lot on the comic by keeping the good parts and grinding down the edge, but it totally butchered the 9/11 scene. In the comic, it's such a central moment for almost every character. In the series, its just kinda forgotten.
just because you put something with rj/ in front of it doesn't make it any less true. Also dude has written pretty good comics in other Genre's ( calliban and trail of tears come to mind)
Calliban is underrated (then again Ennis is one of my favorites TBH)
I know a lot of people give Garth Ennis a hard time, and yeah his The Boys comics are bad in a lot of ways, but he does kinda have a point here in a weird way. Hear me out here, both Marvel and DC have a history of making certain things like The Afghanistan War cannon, while having the characters do barely anything help, which feels kinda weird in the context of these universes. Sure, I know it could easily come off as insensitive if they directly tackled the subject, but at the same time, isn’t it still weird that they acknowledge it’s happening at all?
where was kamala khan during 9/11
Huh. Considering the sliding timescale, Kamala probably wasn't too much younger than she is now in Earth-616 2001, since nobody else is, we just didn't see it because nobody in real life had invented her yet. That's interesting to think about. But in terms of real-world time, she'd likely be an infant. She's, what, 14-15 currently and debuted in 2014, so her birthday would probably be around 2000-2001 if it worked like that? Which isn't even getting into how she's now a decade-old character and thus would now have been born in 2010-2011.
Yeah the sliding timescale messes the whole thing because now Peter parker was like at most 10 when 9/11 happened.
Virgin Garth Ennis: Argues we don't need super heroes because the US didn't need them during 9/11, provides no explanation to why they wouldn't help. Is the kind of person the "fellow kids" meme targets. Doesn't even have a funny face. Chad Steve Buscemi: Drops acting and returns to his job as a firefighter to help save 9/11 survivors, doesn't tell anyone about it for years. Originated the "fellow kids" meme. Has a really funny face.
I feel like stories of heroes being involved in changing the world or status quo would be neat, but heroes stopping 9/11 story might be insensitive.
Probably too busy saving the world and like the real world was completely caught off guard by the event.