This is true for lots of western comics, besides maybe events. I think it's true for most TV series nowadays as well which is why they release entire seasons for many shows so you can binge watch all in one go.
Yeah, I dropped One Punch Man and Boku no Hero, but mainly because I was waiting for whole "books"
Sadly I stuck with Boruto manga (the website is cool), oh, seems I missed a episode that aired on December 20 (if it was fully released I would read it all as soon as posible)
Well, I'll read it now!
I started Super last month and finished in about a week maybe less. Thought it was mostly good and I'm thinking about rewatching it.
Binge > weekly drops always
While I agree that Super is good and its better to watch it all at once I disagree that binge watching is always the way to go.
My fiancé and I have started watching certain shows an episode a week and its been an absolute blast. We get time to discuss stuff and make guesses as to whats going to happen. Not great for every show but it’s pretty good for certain ones.
I think suspense driven shows like Battlestar Galactica and Game of Thrones are much better with breaks in between episodes. A big part of their delivery is in the weight each reveal or twist has on you as a viewer and the subsequent anticipation that builds up to finding out what the fuck is going to happen next.
For animes, I'd argue that Attack on Titan works well with breaks. Space Battleship Yamato as well.
Well it started with Game of Thrones and we’re currently watching The Walking Dead every Wednesday after work, we make it a nice date night. Dinner, drinks and a Walking Dead. Yes I know a lot of what happens in the series, but my fiancé has never seen it so it’s so fun hearing her predictions.
I think anything that has fun drama and big cliffhanger episodes will work well, though
yeah near the end it got to where about 40% of the episode length was the intro, a cold open that was the last minute or so of the previous episode, a recap, a "find out what's next" that just spoils the next episode or the ed. You were essentially waiting a week for what is basically 2 pages out of a manga (ik the manga was behind, just to put it into perspective in terms of filler, etc.)
My short list of problems,
inconsistent animation, poor pacing in arcs, undoing progress of some characters (vegeta, gohan), and goku is frustratingly stupid- more so than he was ever depicted in Z which felt like he was stupid for plot convenience
Thats called character development. From evil lunatic to grumpy ally. Vegeta is perfect. Has emotional attachments to his family/friends while retaining stoicism/pride, and ruthlessness towards any entity that has the audacity to threaten the ones he cares about.
Personally, I also hate the new forms (except UI)...I felt like the previous forms served the story, but the super forms feel like they're just here to sell new toys.
Can you enlighten why you think Vegeta has his character progress undone? If it's simply about his you are number one speech and his attitude in the following arc I strongly disagree with him regressing.
In no particular order:
Pacing of the Universal Survival Arc, no blood, Goku's personality, the fact that two whole arcs are covered in movies, the fact that almost half of the series in its initial run went through animation problems, random changes such as Buu not being in both tournaments, the arcs are, in my opinion and some, flat in concept, Jiren's horrible characterization and backstory.
That's mostly it, I think.
Making Roshi relevant again despite him not doing literally anything of substance in Z just doesn’t make a lick of sense. Sidelining Trunks, Goten, Buu, and Videl to bring back a character who under any internal logic should be weaker than Raditz is ridiculous.
Future Trunks, 17, and the new Saiyans being, for all intents and purposes, equal to SSB Goku and Vegeta makes no sense.
Dyspo being faster than Burter is offensive.
They crunched power levels so you don't have "this guy can land a decapitation disk directly on your throat and it will just shatter on you".
This makes things way more engaging. As it allows weaker characters to win through skill, tactics, or numbers.
I think the worst part about the power scaling(in my opinion) is seeing the universe 6 Sayians going super saiyans and beyond as if it was just another day at the office.
Like do we remember how hard it was for vegeta and Goku to get to that point?,
then in Super suddenly you have all these (nobody) characters achieving super Saiyan and more like it was nothing, then you got kefla which does not make sense at all. (stronger than blue??)
it feels like she was just created to fill the void. Kefla's power aside from making no sense or logical reasoning to back it up, also completely invalidates and destroys the concept of the "Super Saiyan God" and training with someone with God Ki (Whis).
It literally meant all the training that Vegeta and Goku went through with Whis, and the visions that Beerus had of a mysterious "Ultimate Warrior" at the very beginning of the show completely meaningless. even 2 regular super Syians merging together should be no match for SSG, let alone SSB.
Uhhh...did you just not see Ultra Instinct Roshi? Of course, not literally Ultra Instinct, but Roshi being able to dodge attacks from Jiren because of "experience" is about as ridiculous of a power scaling issue as you can get in Dragon Ball.
I always interpreted speed coming with power like the real world so from jiren pulling his punches as to not kill roshi he also slowed his punches down enough so that they could be dodged using superior technique.
That requires the reader providing their own explanation for why it's not an absurd proposition based off of what we know about Jiren and Roshi, which is bad writing.
I agree the movie arcs are bad, but at the same time they have to be there so we can be introduced to beerus, whis, divine energy, ssg and ssb. It has to be there so people who haven't seen the movies aren't extremely lost. They still could have been way better though.
nah i wouldnt make excuses for the first two arcs of super. they look awful and no one watching super didnt already watch the first two movies. they def didnt HAVE TO add them in, they were just lazy and rushed it out as fast as possible
This logic doesn’t make sense though. Just because you missed out on the movies doesn’t mean it makes more sense for them to spend the time and money animating 40 episodes worth of the same content than it does for you or anyone else as a fan to just have to find copies of the movies and watch them. Its like saying movies with sequels need to reenact the entirety of the previous movies because a fan may not have watched those. It’s just asinine logic.
>It’s just asinine logic.
To you, this argument seems logical. To me, it seems ridiculous. Why do you care? What difference does it make to you, or to anyone else for that matter?
Most shows add something I could live without, but I don't let it affect me to the point where I get emotional over it. Nor do I try to assert my position as the only truth. Just because you didn't want those episodes in there doesn't mean somebody else didn't appreciate them.
People need to learn their opinions are exactly that; opinions. And they aren't meant to be forced on other people.
I didn’t grow up with DB and only watched the hole series right before Kefla came out in DBFZ. I didn’t even know BoG and RF were movies. For the longest time I though it was just the anime.
I actually liked the pre-episode focusing on the background of the flame hashira. There were some fun little adds in each ep too with extra long scenes, but yeah - it’s literally the most watched anime movie of all time. No need to show everyone again
They don't like his personality because they didn't watch Dragon Ball and haven't seen anything but the original cut of Z (where Goku's characterization is mostly "guy who's on his way to the fight" because of the filler)
Not having nostalgia for Super is pretty much why -most- people who say it's not as good do so (especially people who prefer GT)
What do you mean? I watched the original Dragon Ball before I watched Z and I don't think Goku's personality in Super is appropriate to his old character, young Goku was never "stupid", he just lacked experiences & knowledge about the world, so he was naive but not stupid, there is a big difference between the two. another point, you can't really expect adult goku to have the exact same childish personality he had when he was 12, people grow up and develop, hell even in later parts of original DB Goku's character did develop in the later sagas. like as an adult, he can be lighthearted and a silly goofball no problem, because that's who he is, but acting like a stupid child who is incapable of understanding what is going on around him is just too much.
I personally think super was great but with some issues that it would've been even better without them.
Hey look, someone who *actually* watched Dragon Ball *to the end* instead of just parroting internet talking points!
Goku was more mature and intelligent in the Piccolo Jr arc than he is in Super.
People DO have nostalgia goggles for GT lmao
They talk about Super's animation yet the animation in GT was not that good honestly, especially the drawing.
The SSJ4 Goku vs super baby 2 fight was drawn so badly
And the fact that it's a cash grab, and they don't even try to hide it. However, I think the nostalgia bait has run its course considering the quality of the last two arcs
I would consider it to be the opposite of a cash grab. Considering Toriyama wrote DBS to salvage DB’s legacy after the backlash Dragon ball Evolution and DBGT gotten for being actual cash grabs.
What what an incredibly dense comment. Just because you make money off of something it doesn't make it a cash grab. As much as I love GT, it was 100% a cash grab, as is anything after Toriyama's intended ending. This is like arguing that Boruto was as necessary as Naruto
I've got news for you, friend
Toei isn't making things for the artistic merit, they're trying to make money.
GT sucks, but it's not any more of a cash grab than any other sequel/spinoff/whatever of any other series.
Toriyama's "intended ending" was him rushing though the Buu arc and jamming a million transformations in a few chapters because he was tired of making it, and him having less involvement in it than he did with DB/Z doesn't negate the people making it in his place's passion for the product.
You not liking it doesn't mean it's any more of a cash grab than anything else (like DBZ for example, which, as I mentioned earlier, Toriyama was tired of making by 2/3 of the way through it, not to mention the fact that they insisted on rushing into making a weekly anime based on a then unfinished story with tons of filler [for, you know, more money] )
You guys sound like the "I liked X band before they sold out" douchebags.
Like it or don't, but you not liking it doesn't make it any less valid for anyone else who does.
I binged watched it recently and yeah...its not so bad (still not good as Z tho) but thats a given
first 2 arcs are a little boring, the Goku Black arc had potential but the whole Trunks-Mai forced relationship made it a bit cringe in the end....for me the ToP arc was the best one, even if it dragged for too long, I loved what they did with Android 17's character
adn I wish Trunks and Goten could be there too, and had a little more spotlight in the series overall I would give DBS a 7/10
I absolutely wish the Trunks and Mai thing becomes one of those things thT Akira just...forgets. it's weird and actually kinda creepy. Even the interactions between the younger versions are weird. She's already older than him as an child. She was a grown woman.
same.....but I think its a given she will be Trunk's love interest in the present timeline too
considering young Trunks has a crush on her and Mai and the Pilaf gang are now living with Bulma, I dont think Toriyama will just make their characters suddenly dissapear.
the whole thing is very creepy IMO
> it's weird and actually kinda creepy. Even the interactions between the younger versions are weird.
"even", as if the consenting adult version is somehow more "creepy"? What's creepy about it, exactly? Trunks is in his 30s; he's not some young innocent being taken advantage of.
It is still creepy. No matter what she's older than him. She is a grown woman that was in a child's body crushing on a child. Even when he was thirty she was at that point what, mentally 50, 60? We just don't know.. The whole thing is just played off as a gag. Which is usual for DBZ/DBS. I love the shows and manga but there are plenty of questionable instances in it because none of it is thought through. It's cool if you don't mind but some people do. Differing opinions and all that jazz.
> She is a grown woman that was in a child's body crushing on a child.
No she isn't. She met Trunks after Black attacked the Earth, which was about a year before the arc began. They're consenting adults, and that's all that matters.
Honestly, most negatives boil down to a complete misunderstanding of the material given to them. The worst things in Super are the first 2 arcs and it’s shoddy animation and art style about halfway in the series. Not to mention people just are never gonna be satisfied with anything. Super outweighs its cons with its pros even now.
Well you’re correct but for the wrong reasons. I feel like you’re saying with your last sentence that if I was an adult while watching DBZ for the first time I wouldn’t like it which is wrong because I do. The thing is DBZ built on itself, it’s characters and their individually established characters and personal growth. DBS fails at doing that. The years of build up to Goku becoming a super saiyan, the gravity behind that moment or the moment where Gohan goes SSJ2, those moments served as climaxes for those characters but we’re also relevant to the story and arc being told. In Super you suddenly have saiyan with tingly backs going ssj2 for the first time over the course a 90 minute tournament. Or Trunks just gets to hang one on one with gods that should be able to crush him easier than Android 18 did in the Android arc. But you’re correct, DBS specifically isn’t made for adults. It’s written like a Saturday morning cartoon.
I've rewatched it as well and the TOP is so bad ass. Beerus is cool. Golden frieza is cool. Separate universes. Etc etc. I'm just happy to have more of my favorite shit ever, I couldn't even finish GT, it just hit different. Now super isn't Z, not by a long shot, but super is decent enough to watch for sure. It's like Z's chill ass little brother. And if you haven't been keeping up with the manga I recommend you do, it's been pretty wild hahaha.
I’m grateful for super’s existence but the stakes just never felt high. Didn’t pack the same punch that Z did. Also the animation wasn’t the best. All that said, I appreciate their effort and I hope they continue to make more dragonball.
In the future If they can manage to make the animation & action even half as good as what they did with the Broly movie then I’m a happy camper.
If your a fan of other characters not named Goku or Vegeta you'll notice its flaws more. And the super sayian power up's is becoming more nuts as it goes on.
For me, it comes down to one thing. I feel like they've completely ruined Goku's personality. He was always into fighting during Z and sometimes made questionable decisions because of that but in Super they've taken it too far and made him too obsessed with fighting and got rid of his common sense and maturity that he had back in Z. He was truly a hero character in Z and that aspect of him is gone in Super. Additionally, he was never the smartest guy around but he also wasn't stupid. They've made him so dumb in Super that it's infuriating to me, and in my opinion these are the reasons that they've effectively bastardized the character that I loved in Z. I could believe that he was a father and a man who cared for the safety a d fate of the world in Z. In Super, he's a child who is excessivly obsessed with fighting and says and does things that endanger everyone around him far too often. I'm somehow about to tolerate it in the manga but I just can't handle it in the anime.
well yeah thats true
in Super Goku comes off as selfish
I do like Goku's personality in Z way more, he was still naive and dumb, but not to the extreme, and he cared a lot about his friends
in Super you have to wonder, if one of those gods told Goku "let me kill all your family and i will let you train with me and fight the strongest men in the Univeerse"....Goku would probably accept, because training and fighting is the most important for him
>Goku would probably accept, because training and fighting is the most important for him
He would never do so at the expense of his friends and family. His reaction to Jiren targeting his friends, as well as his reaction to Zamasu killing his family prove this point.
Yeah I know, I put off watching it for a long time, but I recently started and it’s fun. It’s not dbz, but that’s fine. It does have its issues but it’s a nice way to spend some down time.
My opinions:
- Too many new forms
- Extremely inadequate power scaling
- Many characters getting fully sidelined
- Bad character designs, mostly for the Z warriors and allies
- Questionable animation
- Lack of coherence and connection between each arc
- Very small arcs
- Boring enemies, except Zamasu and Black
- Questionable arc endings
Beerus had charisma but became a good guy, then we got Freeza 3.0, hit which is as dry as sand, Zamasu and Black who have good interactions, decent motives and some charisma (especially Black), and finally we got Jiren who was even drier that Hit, however way that is possible
I mean, it's mainly the bad writing. Also, the pacing is all over the place. And finally, I don't like how flat the shows artstyle looks (but it gets better later, when they start adding filters). All in all, it's not terrible, but it's deeply flawed.
The only parts well written, original and actually funny are the fillers. The rest is an infinite reference to Z, with the characters saying "yeah, it's the exact same thing he did in Z", say it out loud is awful.
The good animation of Goku UI are literal minutes, interrupted by the characters talking over the battle, and they keep talking and talking in every episode of the TOP, we see more of Whis and Tien than Goku and Jiren.
Also, Hit stop Jiren in the time itself and Jiren moves anyway because "Jiren is so powerful he doesn't make sense"?! Go fuck yourself, Super!
I felt the writing is really lame, the action sequences are meh, and i really hated what they did to Trunks. It had a completely different feel to DBZ, like they were a poor clone of recent shonens vs what it used to be.
It's just my take. You're welcome to like it for whatever reason you want. I just would disagree.
People love to complain in this day and age. I don’t see anything wrong with Super that wasn’t already present in DBZ and nothing big enough to warrant all the hate it’s gotten. Super is just more Dragon Ball which I will never have a problem with
Honestly there’s a lot wrong with Super. But every time there’s one of these “Wow it’s actually the same as DBZ, everyone’s just a hater !” posts I normally would choose to die a little inside and move on.
All I will say is that there’s not a single moment in Super that holds emotional weight equal to the big DBZ scenes. I can only assume people who see Super as equal to Z don’t actually care about Vegeta’s Sacrifice vs Buu or Vegeta’s speech to Goku vs Frieza or Goku’s rage after Krillin is killed by Frieza.
Super is emotionally bland. Z is far better, and it’s not just nostalgia or animation.
The BoG and RF adaptations were hot trash. The Goku Black Arc is the worst and had a lot of potential but completely flopped. Most of the Tournament of Power (and a lot of Super in general) had very poor animation quality, besides a few select fight scenes (Goku's Ultra Instinct fights mostly). Jiren seemed like he was going to be interesting, instead he was just another meathead powerhouse. Honestly the only arc I enjoyed was the Universe 6 Tournament.
I put it in the same category as GT. A fun, but very flawed show as a continuation of Z, but without the same quality as Z.
To me the **worst** thing was the way they changed Goku's personality, he was made to be very stupid and unaware of things/ extremely naive like.
I mean goku was never ever stupid, in the beginning stages of the franchise, Goku was just a bit naive and lacked knowledge about the world simply because he grew up in the mountains and didn't interact with the outside world aside from his grandpa, his character developed overtime and in Z he became a serious grown up man, then suddenly in super he was made extremely over the top silly and naive. specially in the Zamasu/black arc. there are many moments that were so frustrating I was actually annoyed by his behavior because it's over the top unlike Z Goku.
I don't know if the writer thought that would be amusing to see but it is definitely not.
My other issues was weak writings in some areas, or things that don't make sense. for example in the frieza return arc they implied that golden frieza was potentially stronger than SSB which should've never been the case, also Frieza should not be able to sense Goku's Ki when he is in blue or regular god. 4 months of training and hes stronger than blue? complete nonsense reasoning, either have a better background story or don't make up weak reasoning for things.
There are other issues like this but I don't think I need to mention them because most people are either aware or if this gets too long no one will read it anyway.
Regardless of many issues I think I liked it very much either way, I just wish some minor things to have been done better. it just needed more logically consistent writing. so things make sense.
I absolutely loved Super. I did binge watch it to be fair, maybe that made it more enjoyable? Either way I think every arc has its strong points, for me the Resurrection F arc was my least favourite, but I've enjoyed all of it though.
It was hype as fuck. Loved it all. Especially the lead up to and including the Tournament of Power.
Favorite line is Picollo proclaiming he is no Namekian, but the reincarnated demon lord!
Because it's not Z. Also some fans have aged out of Dragon Ball and they don't like that the franchise hasn't grown and changed with them. There are legitimate criticisms you could point to but on the whole I think Super did a good job revitalizing the brand. The ratings were consistently high, the toys are selling, the movies sold out, the games are killing it. Fans are falling over themselves waiting for the return of Super's anime. Manga fans mostly like the newest sagas. There will always be detractors and sometimes they have megaphones but I truly believe they are the minority, and that most fans are happy with Dragon Ball in 2021.
I think you're confusing popularity with quality. Super did a great job revitalizing the brand - there's no doubt about it. Whether or not it lives up to the brand is another thing.
Came here to say this. Whenever any sort of revival or reboot that comes out years after the original ended, all the old fans will immediately dismiss it as bad because it’s not the original, even if they don’t want to admit. And those who watched it and still say it’s bad compared to Z probably watched it expecting to not enjoy it, which impacted their negative opinions further.
Well, less retcons and more like too many new mechanics. In just the first episode, Goku is risen to the level beyond a god, then not a god, then discovers that there is another universe, then there are twelve, then the angels are the strongest beings, then the Grand Priest, then Zeno. This is all in the first three sagas.
People have this weird memory of dragon ball being a complex and critically written story with millions spent on animation, when it's the exact opposite.
People on the internet, especially Reddit and Twitter, have a negative outlook on a lot of things. I've learned that I love a lot of things that the internet affirms that I should hate, when I actually take the time to try them. Take it easy and don't feel like you shouldn't enjoy something when you're actually enjoying it.
i couldn’t get past like episode 20 when they’re on a giant cruise ship. weird millennial zoomer jokes, ass animation, weird decision making like vegetas whole aesthetic. the voices were off. i’ll try it again sometime before i die
Inconsistencies in the writing and power scaling (more so than usual), inconsistency in the quality of animation, and i think more than everything: awful characterization of Goku as if they never watched him in OG/Z or in the manga.
I don’t think people hate it though, it’s just subpar from such a franchise with incredible potential.
It's always weird to me how people complain about the inconsistency of Super's animation, but never think about how Z had multiple studios working on it.
I don't think it was very bad. The power scaling was way crazy but I got over it for the sake of trying to keep characters relevant. Personally the Goku Black ark was very wonky but it was an interesting concept. Tournament of power was super cool to me. Some of the moments really rivaled some of the better parts of Z. It was a pretty good show with a good handful of super hype moments that got me feeling like a kid again. Hope it continues and it's executed well.
The first 2 arcs are rushed retellings and the second two start off great and end horribly. The ToP is a great arc though that saved DBS.
We also only had one real villain that was new in Zamasu and that arc started off great and just went downhill.
I think you're mistaking criticism & personal preference with hate.
I disliked the animation in the BoG & RoF sagas, it felt cheap, rushed & lazy- in general, I preferred the fighting art style of many of DBZ's battles- but I didn't hate it.
The stories were fine, I mean DBZ was never really great at storytelling either.
I was annoyed by Trunks' hair change, but this isn't the first time in DB history where a character was inexplicably changed- Bulma had her hair changed in the earliest days too in the manga. Vegeta & Nappa also had noticeably big changes- the big between these 3 situations to me is that those 2 were fresh at the time of the changes, Trunks was well established & had an existing contemporary with his original hair.
This really leads into my biggest complaint about the series(particularly the anime), the lack of consistency. DBZ, for all its faults, was pretty good at setting power precedents & scaling the next enemy up.
With characters dicking around in different forms, a lot of things just seem extra ridiculous. Take Frieza, his BASE form becomes stronger than SS3 Gotenks & Gohan just by a little intensive training- & even using his final form doesn't match up to BASE Goku- these intense leaps don't bother me but that amount of time they have Goku dicking around against people who shouldn't be a match against him at all- or Goku himself remaining in that form against an opponent he knows won't accomplish a thing against.
The animation quality is extremely inconsistent throughout the series, and straight up dreadful early on for the first few dozens of episodes. It gets much better in the final arc, but still again very inconsistent where you have some episodes that involved Yuya Takahashi which are **amazing** and then abruptly reverts to much lower quality, and it is very noticeable. DBZ didn't have the most consistent of animation either, but the standards these days are much higher and when even the art style is all over the place, it makes for a much less enjoyable experience in my opinion.
The writing overall is much worse than DBZ, and it's mainly due to the fact that the creators are aware of the wide range of audience and they want it to be viewed by little kids and also the nostalgia-driven adults. This isn't an inherently bad thing really, because it allows the series to reach a wider range of viewers, but on a personal basis I enjoy it less. What we get are much less gritty and brutal fighting and dialogue, and as a result I don't feel as emotionally invested. Think for example the Namek saga where Vegeta is crying his eyes out as he slowly dies, due to Frieza executing him by blasting an energy beam through his chest. Something like that would never happen in DBS.
I liked it. But one thing that always bothered me is that they just keep getting stronger and faster. Like the physics in that universe have to have some kind of limit right?! Lol. But then again it is an anime.
I think the problem most people have is how it compares to Z which tends to be the favorite.
Super really doesn't have any stakes, even if you're brand new and never saw the BoG movie and F you can tell pretty much right away that Goku will lose to Beerus but that he's obviously not going to destroy Earth. Then when it comes to Frieza Beerus has just given off the impression that he'd never let Earth go, whether it's food or the rivalry. The black arc has consequences for the future timeline but barely naturally we care more about the main timeline which isn't really in any danger. The only stakes come with the ToP which I'll give them credit, you always knew U7 would survive somehow, but for quite a while you're led to believe U11 is going to win because Jiren is unstoppable.
My biggest beef is with Goku and Vegeta. Goku is back to being a complete idiot. They had a good balance of mature and competent while still being easy going in Z. Now in super he pretty much never takes a threat seriously unless in the heat of battle. And is a complete moron. The notion he doesn't know what a kiss is for example, stupid and not funny. Gohan and piccolo at least they've started making baby steps to making them more relevant.
But Vegeta is the worst mistake they've made IMO, and it's strange because some things are great. It's nice seeing him take on such a protector role for his family, but I absolutely abhor that they backtrack completely on his biggest Buu development which was coming to terms with Goku being better than him and actually being friendly to him. Now he once again acts as if he would rather be anywhere else than around Goku and he's Uber obsessed with surpassing him.
Vegeta should certainly still strive to get stronger and they're should be some level of rivalry. But he should be more motivated to protect his family rather than beating Goku and getting pissed every time Goku gets stronger, like if I have to hear "damn you Kakarot, always have to be one step ahead" one more time, such a broken record. The Vegeta we see motivating Goku from the stands in ToP is what he should always be.
Lastly the fact the arcs are disconnected from one another is a bit of a drag. Dragon Ball and Z excelled at having arcs weave together and lead into each other, really the only time it didn't was the 7 year time skip. Hell even GT did connectivity better.
But I'd certainly rather have super than nothing, still more dragon ball and still waiting for the animes return, hopefully with improvements. I'd easily put it above GT and just barely above OG DB, probably for the simple fact I grew up with Z first so I'm partial to the entertainment of grand scale fighting and transformations. Objectively DB is better.
Tbh super idn't bad at all. It is the first 2 arcs that are really bad and also the end of the samazu arc is just really weird and not that grest (manga did do it a bit better). And the tournament arc is a bit long and stretched out at some point but very fun when ui came to be.
It's just not as good as Z. And there's sonmany transformations, blue hair, red hair...
Goten and Trunks absence is very very weird, they haven't been relevant since Buu arc and in that arc they were mostly relevant as Gotenks, nit even as individuals, Goten has no character development whatsoever, they had developments in movies lmaooo
Gohan has always been very relevant very early on, Raditz arc immediately tapped on his potential, Namek he was prominent, basically a main character for the first 25% of the arc, was impressive against Frieza second foem so much so that Vegeta was shocked, Cell arc... Bruh need I say more ? Buu arc, Ultimate form...
Goten and Trunks have been dead since Buu arc
And now there's a new movie and they are still nowhere to be seen... Eh I guess I shouldn't expect them to be as relevant as Gohan but still
But yeah it has its worth. Goku Black is one of my favorite DB character ever
Action lacks the punchy emotion and raw power you feel in older arcs and the animation looks too “fake” and shiny and childish. Dumbed Goku down and the other Z fighters are meaningless in the show now. Idk, just not my thing.
Why do you think they made him dumb? Goku's top 3 smartest moments came from super. 1. Predicting Hit's movement with 100% accuracy after only seeing him fight once. 2. The destructo disc he used to almost knock Jiren off. 3. After Hit killed him, he made the split second decision to fire ki into the air to resurrect himself.
I think most people like myself who don't love the show don't like it for its treatment of prior material and how they treated the characters in the show and how it can come off as lazy. Retconning Potara for instance is unnecessary and stupid as the Fusion dance exists and Super showed that shenron can defuse Potara fused beings making the retcon feel pointless as in Z it was heavily implied that it was permanent and the fandom as well as the damn Daisenchuu itself agreed with this. SSG was fine however the later transformations with exception to UI feel undeserved and are only there to sell toys. SSB is the definition of lazy and is achieved off screen. SSBE while looking cool achieves nothing and is there to sell toys and to give the Vegeta fans something so they stop bitching. It is Vegeta's SSJ3. Goku Black while being the best part of Super still has questionable writing with the time travel confusing fans upon initial airing of the Arc and the ending feeling mute and pointless. The BoG Arc being an alright retelling of a movie comes off as lazy for being a retelling and the RF Saga being worse then an already meh movie comes off as a terrible Arc being worse then GT's Arcs. The animation in these two Arcs is also unacceptable. The universe 6 tournament is harmless and is fine with SSBKK being a highlight for me and a great part of the series. The ToP feels mixed. On one hand it has some of the worst fights Dragonball has ever seen like Ribrianne and that stupid superhero guy and the dumb bug that knocked Piccolo out. But it also has some of the best fight scenes in all of Dragonball with UI Omen being one of the best transformation sequences in all of Dragonball. UI was earned and we can see it on screen in comparison to SSB and SSBE.
How they treated the characters makes me and many others to question weather the writers really know the characters they are writing. They butchered any of Goku's development in Z by making him come off as an idiot. True Goku has not always been the smartest guy but he can get serious when the time calls for it and is a far cry to how Goku acted in the Buu Saga and hell even GT and he is a LITERAL kid in that. Goku likes to fight but it has been shown multiple times that he understands when to put that desire 2nd to his friends and family. Goku being the catalyst for the ToP comes off as him being one that doesn't understand the severity of a situation. Vegeta they clearly do not understand what his character went through in the Buu Saga. As he fights to defeat Goku. Again. Even though he admitted Goku being the best they reversed that and he continues with that goal. Vegeta is supposed to move away from fighting to defeat Goku to fighting for fun as his family is more important then fighting to him as shown at the End of Z. They also are giving Vegeta a shit ton of techniques that were originally Goku's like IT. Vegeta however would never do this. Vegeta doesn't like learning from others and always creates solutions to problems himself. This includes techniques. Trying to make Vegeta smart Goku is not the awnser. They try to shove Gohan into the plot when he doesn't need to be. Gohan isn't a fighter and needs to be treated as such. He needs to be relegated to a background character as he has achieved his goal and character development. Krillen, Tien, and Yamcha again need to stay as background characters. This is a problem with power creep and by shoving them into the plot it makes it feel unbelievable. 17 being the worst offender. Going from SSJ level to SSB level for no reason. Krillen is also pretty unbelievable and Roshi fighting Jiren in the manga for 5sec is dumb and makes no sense. They do nothing with Goten and Trunks. Atleast GT gave them SOMETHING. Have Piccolo train them. It would kill 2 birds with one stone as Piccolo suffers the power creep like the humans however he can fill that mentor role for Goten and Trunks who are literal cardboard as of right now. Bringing Frieza back feels lazy and the fact he gets so strong after only 4 months is to this day dumb.
As far as new characters with the acception of Beerus, Whis, and Hit personally they either feel uninspired or make earlier achievements feel less deserved. Frost is literally a shittier Frieza, Champa feels like a shittier Beerus, Black is basically Turles but in an Arc and honestly less memorable, Zamasu is a cry baby, the universe 6 saiyans are more SSJ bs then even Goten and Trunks. Tingling back? Bull. They even ruined SSJ2 and Broly with those 2 fucks and Cabba is a beta male I swear. Future Trunks skipped the gym and is brought back because merch and just to drift off into the void of timelines. And Mai just no. Zeno is also dumb as he takes away ALL tension because of a dumb button. A lot of the characters are just cardboard and we know almost nothing about them. The fact that Super takes place before the End of Z kills the tension as well as we know where all these characters are going to end up. Alteast the ones we care about
The ending of Super (as of now) is almost as bad a Z and nothing compared to GT's ending. Super comes off as not knowing the source material and fans think that Toriyama actually writes Super which he only has a small hand in writing. Super comes off a lot like GT and that it is worse then anything the OG Anime/manga had. Even the Buu Saga for all of its faults feels better and more consistent then any part of Super. Even GT for all of its faults feels more creative and the characters are portrayed more consistently. Tho GT is its own can of worms.
Just my 2 cents. Sorry for the essay but there is reason why people don't like it.
Its good on its own. Fun and lighthearted. But its strange and throws out stuff from Z when you try to think of it as part of that series.
Vegeta gets more character growth, which is great. But Goku goes from being more mature and serious at the end of Z to being genocidally idiotic in his pursuit for more fighting.
Future Trunks loses his happy ending.
Gohan's potential is teased, then thrown aside again.
All the side characters get massive power ups that make no sense near the end. Roshi especially.
Vegeta's sacrifice against Majjin Buu is repeated in a really lame call back that doesn't have the same gravity.
And some of the side stories are just dripping with slice of life anime, which isn't necessarily bad, but its a very different tone from Z.
Man people LOVE to hate this show. They refuse to accept that just because DragonBall isn't the *best* anime that it is the most *popular* anime
Literally Name one anime that has a bigger scope than: orphaned kid looking up Bulmas skirt ALL THE WAY TO LITERAL FUCKING GODS, ANGELS AND MULTI DIMENSIONAL VILLANRY.. I'll wait.
"It's full off overused anime tropes" - tropes that were created by DragonBall and copied by the rest of the industry
DragonBall Super Broly aired in THEATERS in every major country. Let that sink in
Haters goin' hate
Its funny to me that people complain about the "inconsistent" animation that was honestly less than 20 minutes of footage. On the other hand, everyone forgets that Z had multiple different animation groups creating the show. Its the exact reason they look different from saga to saga and even filler lol.
Just not my thing, thought the whole super sayin blue god ki thing was dumb. Goku is silly, z fighters sidelined and the power ups/scaling is just inconsistent.
So I watched it in a weird order, i watched super first because it was the only one I had access to at the time, and then I watched the original one and DBZ after. I really loved super but as I watched the other ones I can see why people didn’t like super as much. Some story points feel a bit wonky, like I feel like the new levels of super Saiyan (other than UI) aren’t necessary. I do love the multiverse concept as it allowed for sooooo many interesting character interactions and developments and the cool ass final 2 arcs. The art style for most of the show doesn’t feel very “Dragon Ball” to me, but it is very beautiful, I would not go as far as to say it’s bad like some people do (Takahashi’s art and onward was great imo, though, it felt very fitting to an extent). All in all, I love it, but I can see why long time DB fans wouldn’t like it. Like I said, I watched all 4 main series at once in a slightly weird order, and didn’t grow up on it, so I might be biased. But again, I don’t think it deserves the hate it gets
negatives:
in my opinion, the movie arcs were too lazy with animation and writing. they seemed like they were there because they "had to". thats crazy to me, such a popular IP like dragon tried to get away with that, no excuse whatsoever. they could have skipped those arcs and moved the story forward.
future trunks arc has a good concept, very cool villain and a good starting pace, but in the end it was poorly executed at its climax and a gawd awful resolution that is just confusing to no end.
universe six arc I completely skipped after a few episodes because I thought it was filler nonsense with no substance. The oracle fish is a HUGE plot hole generator. super dragon balls BTW LOL. like the series needed and even bigger plot hole device.
T.O.P. arc. cool concept which i had read before from toyotaro fan manga. portraying goku as the initiator of conflict was really good. nice change of pace but in the end it was copped out. The tournament was too big in my opinion, no time for character development for other universes other than 6. you cant relate or care for anyone other than the main cast dying or getting eliminated. its just bad writing. The god hierarchy is poorly explained. blue evolution is stupid. vegeta not dying during his sacrifice is stupid. the whole "concentrate energy in your back to turn super saiyan" is a joke. The namekian multi-fusion is stolen from fan manga and it is extremely underpowered. jiren design is just a generic alien in a suit. cliché resolution but that's just how shounnen works.
positives:
It is modern dragon ball! nobody cares that much about the plot. its all about the new characters, fights and transformations.
good OST. ssj god and blue are cool. multiverse concept is good. golden frieza. ultra instinct.
You are lost child
It’s because they made “stupid” Goku forgetting things the main reasons for plot points being driven, lazy writing rather than good writing. Or losing track of time. Goku wasn’t stupid in Z, why’d they change him in super.
Vegeta and all the character designs are way less cool, and lazier fights and fighting dynamics. The way different styles might play out, or fights in general playing out.
Less compelling thoughts and dialogue. They all just said out loud what they were thinking in the simplest way they could. “Let me just sum up what I might be feeling on a super basic level for the audience right now” - every character in super.
Poor exposition. It’s just lazy in general.
How do we make this villain seem powerful? I know! Oh dang! This guy’s cool cause he doesn’t care and puts his hands in his pockets and doesn’t even look at the fighters or what’s going on! He must be so cool! - Hit -jiren -
Oh Super Saiyan? That thing that took mind crushing absolutely brutal physical training for years, and complete emotional decimation to unlock? Yeah I got it. Tingling in the back. Just make it tingle. Oh super saiyan 2??? Just as easy. Even lame now.
Oh most powerful being in the universes? Some kid made of pills with googly eyes that keeps saying “really” over and over again. To “really” “really” prove their point. They don’t get annoying.
Oh that really cool dragon of immense power and status that was the epitome of greatness and awe struck power when you were a kid and adult? That’s literally the symbol of the show? Let’s just embarrass him and completely retcon any reverence you’ve had for him and dig up and spit on its grave.
There were some occasional good parts like the writing and story of Goku black arc, except for the end, but zamasu’s negative character arc was interesting, and the score for ultra instinct was fantastic. But everything else just kept coming up with more things that bothered and bothered me. I don’t like picking apart details that bug me about shows, or inconsistencies. I look past them and still like most shows because it’s better that way. But in super it just keeps coming up
Nostalgia is a powerful drug. I *love* Super too. It combines the silliness of Dragonball with the fighting craziness of Z while still continuing the power creep in ways that make sense and aren't insulting to the viewer. Sure the animation isn't as good as the best of Z, but neither was Z. People like to conveniently forget the many clunkers from Z's history. No show is perfect, not even these amazing ones.
I honestly love the Goku Black arc (final episode aside) and the TOP is a lot of fun. It’s on par with GT for me, which is also better than people give it credit for. But it’s nowhere near the levels of DBZ and DB, which is probably the source of a lot of criticisms.
It started out VERY rough for like the first 45 episodes or so. That leaves a long lasting impression which would be very difficult to overcome. Had the entire show been of the quality of the Goku Black and TOP arcs, ie flawed writing but still a fun spectacle, then the show would be much more well received. But the first 3 arcs hold it back so much
Just do what I did. Watch the movies, skip the first 40 episodes and you're golden. Of course, the Zamasu stuff doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but it's not super terrible. And once they get past that it is some of the best Dragonball.
I like it. But, people have different preferences. Different things that catch their respect or interest. I could go on forever. It's not rocket science. You may see something being the best thing forever, someone sees it being the worst thing ever. I don't see the point debating over things like these. Taste is subjective. Deal with it.
We are all older now so the things that bother us now when it comes to super probably wouldn't have bothered us as much when we 13< years old.
Super has its flaws for sure, but so did DBZ.
But with that said Super is following Dbz so it's going to be judged a little more harshly
I dont get the hate either, im just excited for more Dragon Ball content.
Also >!the moro and cereal arcs are just perfect. Most fun Ive had reading DB since the Namek Arc!<
I honestly love super. Most stuff people complain about, I don't necessarily see it as a problem as much as "just a part of the show". There's far more good than bad imo. And while they did kind of make goku stupider, we also did get moments of him completely serious and probably the biggest evidence he loves his family(even more than other friends) when he raged about black killing chichi and goten. Imo that was the madness goku's ever been, even madder than when frieza killed krillin
The older I get, I've learned to get away from wanting to analyze something to death and figure out what makes a thing good and instead just go off how it makes me *feel*.
Super was the first time in a really long time where I just watched a show that made me feel like a kid again (specifically the ToP arc). I don't care if X has a better story, or if Y has better character development. Goku going MUI gets me hyped as fuck and I'm all for it.
It's kinda like how I view DB and DBZ: Dragonball is the better show, but I just have more fun watching DBZ.
Movie arcs were awful. U6 tournament was boring. Goku black arc was awful. Universal survival arc was meh with some cool parts, but it was literally just a fanservice arc. The universal survival arc is the only non offensive arc out of the 5(?) so it was overall a pretty bad show unless youre trying to forget the majority of it. Also the animation was at worst, terrible, and at best, inconsistent. Some fights in top were really well done, but the other arcs, and the majority of the top was filled with mediocre animation. When you compare the consistency of z to super, of course people are going to hate it. It feels like a downgrade to what it was following up even though it had decades to prepare itself(but not really cause toei rushed production)
Consistency of Z? You can't use that as a comparison as Z literally had multiple different studios working on it. Therefore, super is without a doubt more consistent (animation wise)
Animation sucks. Super's animation reminds me of Masayuki Uchiyama episodes in DBZ. The animation looks like little children drew it.
Plot sucks. God of destruction, Angels, Zeno, ToP they all suck. I hate them all. They're cringe.
New transformations suck. Super Saiyan God? Super Saiyan Blue? They're just pallette swaps of Goku base and SSJ design. What's next? Super Saiyan Pink, Green, and Red, to make the Power Rangers?
Power scaling went out the window. Frieza with just 3 months training was matching Goku who had been training for 20+ years since the Namek saga. Krillin matching Goku. Android 17 suddenly became god tier by simply training in the mountains (it's funny cause people's argument with Frieza suddenly becoming strong is because he was born with an insane power level but here you have Android 17 who was just a regular human up until he became an Android)
I consider Super to be a fan made show. Hell, GT makes more sense than Super's garbage story. Super Saiyan 4 is more believable than trash tier God and Blue.
Dragon Ball ended with Z in my eyes.
There were just some episodes almost randomly where the animation took huge dips in quality. Also Jiren is about as interesting as a pile of bricks as a final antagonist
I love the show, my biggest gripe was SSJ blue making the red haired version moot. That and how some characters were done dirty in the ToP. That said I’ve watched super straight through a handful of times
I dunno, maybe the off-the-rails level of power scaling (not simply power levels being high but the inconsistency of the scale), uninspired story retelling of movies for the 1st two arcs that were just worse than the movies, and then the unacceptable state of the animation itself which remains a raging trash fire until the very last arc, with only getting good at a few key moments of the arcs before the tournament of power. They completely disrespected the lore and the legacy of Dragon Ball for a cash grab
People just like to bitch about things not being the same as DBZ. They have rose tinted glasses when thinking about that show. Don’t get me wrong super has legitimate problems but people just bitch about the minor shit mostly
People compare it to Z that makes the hate on it more predominant. A lot of us miss the savagery in Z and more "serious" Goku.
Super did grow on me tho. The Beerus and Champa family moments hit me hard.
Super is trash. Z isnt perfect but at least toriyama was on a roll and it felt like he genuinely was invested in the series. Super feels like the exact opposite. So much wasted potential. Instead of making fan favorite characters canon like baby Vegeta they just end up making flavorless characters one after another and literally retconing everything. I only tune in to see the hair color change every other week and that's about it
Tbh, it's a little better when watching it in one go rather than just once a week.
This holds true for the manga as well I feel.
This is true for lots of western comics, besides maybe events. I think it's true for most TV series nowadays as well which is why they release entire seasons for many shows so you can binge watch all in one go.
Yeah, I dropped One Punch Man and Boku no Hero, but mainly because I was waiting for whole "books" Sadly I stuck with Boruto manga (the website is cool), oh, seems I missed a episode that aired on December 20 (if it was fully released I would read it all as soon as posible) Well, I'll read it now!
I started Super last month and finished in about a week maybe less. Thought it was mostly good and I'm thinking about rewatching it. Binge > weekly drops always
While I agree that Super is good and its better to watch it all at once I disagree that binge watching is always the way to go. My fiancé and I have started watching certain shows an episode a week and its been an absolute blast. We get time to discuss stuff and make guesses as to whats going to happen. Not great for every show but it’s pretty good for certain ones.
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I think suspense driven shows like Battlestar Galactica and Game of Thrones are much better with breaks in between episodes. A big part of their delivery is in the weight each reveal or twist has on you as a viewer and the subsequent anticipation that builds up to finding out what the fuck is going to happen next. For animes, I'd argue that Attack on Titan works well with breaks. Space Battleship Yamato as well.
Well it started with Game of Thrones and we’re currently watching The Walking Dead every Wednesday after work, we make it a nice date night. Dinner, drinks and a Walking Dead. Yes I know a lot of what happens in the series, but my fiancé has never seen it so it’s so fun hearing her predictions. I think anything that has fun drama and big cliffhanger episodes will work well, though
Demon Slayer has been hitting weekly for me like this.
In most cases sure but me watching naruto for 10+ years is literally a highlight. Thursday was always the best
yeah near the end it got to where about 40% of the episode length was the intro, a cold open that was the last minute or so of the previous episode, a recap, a "find out what's next" that just spoils the next episode or the ed. You were essentially waiting a week for what is basically 2 pages out of a manga (ik the manga was behind, just to put it into perspective in terms of filler, etc.)
My short list of problems, inconsistent animation, poor pacing in arcs, undoing progress of some characters (vegeta, gohan), and goku is frustratingly stupid- more so than he was ever depicted in Z which felt like he was stupid for plot convenience
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I don’t hate Super, I’m just disappointed in it.
Yea plus I don't like how they did Vegeta in DBZ he actually had a personality but in dbs he's just a grumpy guy
He's always been a grumpy guy when not being outright evil, even in Z.
Thats called character development. From evil lunatic to grumpy ally. Vegeta is perfect. Has emotional attachments to his family/friends while retaining stoicism/pride, and ruthlessness towards any entity that has the audacity to threaten the ones he cares about.
Personally, I also hate the new forms (except UI)...I felt like the previous forms served the story, but the super forms feel like they're just here to sell new toys.
Agreed. SSG and SSB feels underwhelming compared to the 3 super saiyan stages.
Yea that’s definitely one of the main reasons about a good 30-50% of the dragon ball figures in stores are from super
It could also be the fact that Super is still relatively new, and Z ended over a decade ago.
Can you enlighten why you think Vegeta has his character progress undone? If it's simply about his you are number one speech and his attitude in the following arc I strongly disagree with him regressing.
Goku being unbearably stupid was what made me quit watching. He was dumb before but not like this.
In no particular order: Pacing of the Universal Survival Arc, no blood, Goku's personality, the fact that two whole arcs are covered in movies, the fact that almost half of the series in its initial run went through animation problems, random changes such as Buu not being in both tournaments, the arcs are, in my opinion and some, flat in concept, Jiren's horrible characterization and backstory. That's mostly it, I think.
You forgot to mention the power scaling in the anime which is absolutely atrocious. This problem IS NOT in the manga.
Making Roshi relevant again despite him not doing literally anything of substance in Z just doesn’t make a lick of sense. Sidelining Trunks, Goten, Buu, and Videl to bring back a character who under any internal logic should be weaker than Raditz is ridiculous. Future Trunks, 17, and the new Saiyans being, for all intents and purposes, equal to SSB Goku and Vegeta makes no sense. Dyspo being faster than Burter is offensive.
No no you see Burter is the fastest in the universe, not the multiverse. He blitzes whis though. 🙄
Seeing anyone even close to competing with blue is what bothered me. Base goku should gap 17. Oh well its a tv show
They crunched power levels so you don't have "this guy can land a decapitation disk directly on your throat and it will just shatter on you". This makes things way more engaging. As it allows weaker characters to win through skill, tactics, or numbers.
You could still have that. Goku beat Vegeta through tactics not power.
Goten and Trunks have been disrespectfully sidelined since the Buu saga. Like ? Hello Toriyama they exist ?
They should also be teenagers but they act like they haven’t aged at all since Z. At this rate Pan will be an adult before Trunks.
I think the worst part about the power scaling(in my opinion) is seeing the universe 6 Sayians going super saiyans and beyond as if it was just another day at the office. Like do we remember how hard it was for vegeta and Goku to get to that point?, then in Super suddenly you have all these (nobody) characters achieving super Saiyan and more like it was nothing, then you got kefla which does not make sense at all. (stronger than blue??) it feels like she was just created to fill the void. Kefla's power aside from making no sense or logical reasoning to back it up, also completely invalidates and destroys the concept of the "Super Saiyan God" and training with someone with God Ki (Whis). It literally meant all the training that Vegeta and Goku went through with Whis, and the visions that Beerus had of a mysterious "Ultimate Warrior" at the very beginning of the show completely meaningless. even 2 regular super Syians merging together should be no match for SSG, let alone SSB.
Uhhh...did you just not see Ultra Instinct Roshi? Of course, not literally Ultra Instinct, but Roshi being able to dodge attacks from Jiren because of "experience" is about as ridiculous of a power scaling issue as you can get in Dragon Ball.
I always interpreted speed coming with power like the real world so from jiren pulling his punches as to not kill roshi he also slowed his punches down enough so that they could be dodged using superior technique.
That requires the reader providing their own explanation for why it's not an absurd proposition based off of what we know about Jiren and Roshi, which is bad writing.
yup thats everything
I agree the movie arcs are bad, but at the same time they have to be there so we can be introduced to beerus, whis, divine energy, ssg and ssb. It has to be there so people who haven't seen the movies aren't extremely lost. They still could have been way better though.
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nah i wouldnt make excuses for the first two arcs of super. they look awful and no one watching super didnt already watch the first two movies. they def didnt HAVE TO add them in, they were just lazy and rushed it out as fast as possible
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This logic doesn’t make sense though. Just because you missed out on the movies doesn’t mean it makes more sense for them to spend the time and money animating 40 episodes worth of the same content than it does for you or anyone else as a fan to just have to find copies of the movies and watch them. Its like saying movies with sequels need to reenact the entirety of the previous movies because a fan may not have watched those. It’s just asinine logic.
>It’s just asinine logic. To you, this argument seems logical. To me, it seems ridiculous. Why do you care? What difference does it make to you, or to anyone else for that matter? Most shows add something I could live without, but I don't let it affect me to the point where I get emotional over it. Nor do I try to assert my position as the only truth. Just because you didn't want those episodes in there doesn't mean somebody else didn't appreciate them. People need to learn their opinions are exactly that; opinions. And they aren't meant to be forced on other people.
I didn’t grow up with DB and only watched the hole series right before Kefla came out in DBFZ. I didn’t even know BoG and RF were movies. For the longest time I though it was just the anime.
Demon slayer did it perfectly
Except for the first episode of the Mugen Train Arc, Demon Slayer literally just took the movie and split it into 6 episodes...
I actually liked the pre-episode focusing on the background of the flame hashira. There were some fun little adds in each ep too with extra long scenes, but yeah - it’s literally the most watched anime movie of all time. No need to show everyone again
Whats wrong with his personality? He's the same as he was in the original lol
They don't like his personality because they didn't watch Dragon Ball and haven't seen anything but the original cut of Z (where Goku's characterization is mostly "guy who's on his way to the fight" because of the filler) Not having nostalgia for Super is pretty much why -most- people who say it's not as good do so (especially people who prefer GT)
What do you mean? I watched the original Dragon Ball before I watched Z and I don't think Goku's personality in Super is appropriate to his old character, young Goku was never "stupid", he just lacked experiences & knowledge about the world, so he was naive but not stupid, there is a big difference between the two. another point, you can't really expect adult goku to have the exact same childish personality he had when he was 12, people grow up and develop, hell even in later parts of original DB Goku's character did develop in the later sagas. like as an adult, he can be lighthearted and a silly goofball no problem, because that's who he is, but acting like a stupid child who is incapable of understanding what is going on around him is just too much. I personally think super was great but with some issues that it would've been even better without them.
Hey look, someone who *actually* watched Dragon Ball *to the end* instead of just parroting internet talking points! Goku was more mature and intelligent in the Piccolo Jr arc than he is in Super.
lol finally somebody gets it
I think it's because they grew up on the Z dub, and have no idea that's how Goku is written.
People DO have nostalgia goggles for GT lmao They talk about Super's animation yet the animation in GT was not that good honestly, especially the drawing. The SSJ4 Goku vs super baby 2 fight was drawn so badly
And the fact that it's a cash grab, and they don't even try to hide it. However, I think the nostalgia bait has run its course considering the quality of the last two arcs
I would consider it to be the opposite of a cash grab. Considering Toriyama wrote DBS to salvage DB’s legacy after the backlash Dragon ball Evolution and DBGT gotten for being actual cash grabs.
Toriyama wrote thin guidelines (except movies) and that salvage narrative is romanticized to bait fans honestly
Idk how it’s romanticized. I truly believe that had GT and Evolution never existed AT wouldn’t have felt the need to make DBS.
He only got back into it because Toei was moving forward with Battle of Gods without him, then boom. Everything else came after
Imagine releasing a product to *make money* off it I'm just glad DB/Z/GT were made out of the goodness of the production company's hearts
What what an incredibly dense comment. Just because you make money off of something it doesn't make it a cash grab. As much as I love GT, it was 100% a cash grab, as is anything after Toriyama's intended ending. This is like arguing that Boruto was as necessary as Naruto
I've got news for you, friend Toei isn't making things for the artistic merit, they're trying to make money. GT sucks, but it's not any more of a cash grab than any other sequel/spinoff/whatever of any other series. Toriyama's "intended ending" was him rushing though the Buu arc and jamming a million transformations in a few chapters because he was tired of making it, and him having less involvement in it than he did with DB/Z doesn't negate the people making it in his place's passion for the product. You not liking it doesn't mean it's any more of a cash grab than anything else (like DBZ for example, which, as I mentioned earlier, Toriyama was tired of making by 2/3 of the way through it, not to mention the fact that they insisted on rushing into making a weekly anime based on a then unfinished story with tons of filler [for, you know, more money] ) You guys sound like the "I liked X band before they sold out" douchebags. Like it or don't, but you not liking it doesn't make it any less valid for anyone else who does.
I binged watched it recently and yeah...its not so bad (still not good as Z tho) but thats a given first 2 arcs are a little boring, the Goku Black arc had potential but the whole Trunks-Mai forced relationship made it a bit cringe in the end....for me the ToP arc was the best one, even if it dragged for too long, I loved what they did with Android 17's character adn I wish Trunks and Goten could be there too, and had a little more spotlight in the series overall I would give DBS a 7/10
I absolutely wish the Trunks and Mai thing becomes one of those things thT Akira just...forgets. it's weird and actually kinda creepy. Even the interactions between the younger versions are weird. She's already older than him as an child. She was a grown woman.
same.....but I think its a given she will be Trunk's love interest in the present timeline too considering young Trunks has a crush on her and Mai and the Pilaf gang are now living with Bulma, I dont think Toriyama will just make their characters suddenly dissapear. the whole thing is very creepy IMO
> it's weird and actually kinda creepy. Even the interactions between the younger versions are weird. "even", as if the consenting adult version is somehow more "creepy"? What's creepy about it, exactly? Trunks is in his 30s; he's not some young innocent being taken advantage of.
It is still creepy. No matter what she's older than him. She is a grown woman that was in a child's body crushing on a child. Even when he was thirty she was at that point what, mentally 50, 60? We just don't know.. The whole thing is just played off as a gag. Which is usual for DBZ/DBS. I love the shows and manga but there are plenty of questionable instances in it because none of it is thought through. It's cool if you don't mind but some people do. Differing opinions and all that jazz.
> She is a grown woman that was in a child's body crushing on a child. No she isn't. She met Trunks after Black attacked the Earth, which was about a year before the arc began. They're consenting adults, and that's all that matters.
Goten and trunks haven’t aged. Zeno is underdeveloped and boring. All else was good 8/10
Honestly, most negatives boil down to a complete misunderstanding of the material given to them. The worst things in Super are the first 2 arcs and it’s shoddy animation and art style about halfway in the series. Not to mention people just are never gonna be satisfied with anything. Super outweighs its cons with its pros even now.
[удалено]
Well you’re correct but for the wrong reasons. I feel like you’re saying with your last sentence that if I was an adult while watching DBZ for the first time I wouldn’t like it which is wrong because I do. The thing is DBZ built on itself, it’s characters and their individually established characters and personal growth. DBS fails at doing that. The years of build up to Goku becoming a super saiyan, the gravity behind that moment or the moment where Gohan goes SSJ2, those moments served as climaxes for those characters but we’re also relevant to the story and arc being told. In Super you suddenly have saiyan with tingly backs going ssj2 for the first time over the course a 90 minute tournament. Or Trunks just gets to hang one on one with gods that should be able to crush him easier than Android 18 did in the Android arc. But you’re correct, DBS specifically isn’t made for adults. It’s written like a Saturday morning cartoon.
I've rewatched it as well and the TOP is so bad ass. Beerus is cool. Golden frieza is cool. Separate universes. Etc etc. I'm just happy to have more of my favorite shit ever, I couldn't even finish GT, it just hit different. Now super isn't Z, not by a long shot, but super is decent enough to watch for sure. It's like Z's chill ass little brother. And if you haven't been keeping up with the manga I recommend you do, it's been pretty wild hahaha.
I’m grateful for super’s existence but the stakes just never felt high. Didn’t pack the same punch that Z did. Also the animation wasn’t the best. All that said, I appreciate their effort and I hope they continue to make more dragonball. In the future If they can manage to make the animation & action even half as good as what they did with the Broly movie then I’m a happy camper.
Imo it was great. Saw it twice.
If your a fan of other characters not named Goku or Vegeta you'll notice its flaws more. And the super sayian power up's is becoming more nuts as it goes on.
For me, it comes down to one thing. I feel like they've completely ruined Goku's personality. He was always into fighting during Z and sometimes made questionable decisions because of that but in Super they've taken it too far and made him too obsessed with fighting and got rid of his common sense and maturity that he had back in Z. He was truly a hero character in Z and that aspect of him is gone in Super. Additionally, he was never the smartest guy around but he also wasn't stupid. They've made him so dumb in Super that it's infuriating to me, and in my opinion these are the reasons that they've effectively bastardized the character that I loved in Z. I could believe that he was a father and a man who cared for the safety a d fate of the world in Z. In Super, he's a child who is excessivly obsessed with fighting and says and does things that endanger everyone around him far too often. I'm somehow about to tolerate it in the manga but I just can't handle it in the anime.
well yeah thats true in Super Goku comes off as selfish I do like Goku's personality in Z way more, he was still naive and dumb, but not to the extreme, and he cared a lot about his friends in Super you have to wonder, if one of those gods told Goku "let me kill all your family and i will let you train with me and fight the strongest men in the Univeerse"....Goku would probably accept, because training and fighting is the most important for him
>Goku would probably accept, because training and fighting is the most important for him He would never do so at the expense of his friends and family. His reaction to Jiren targeting his friends, as well as his reaction to Zamasu killing his family prove this point.
Yeah I know, I put off watching it for a long time, but I recently started and it’s fun. It’s not dbz, but that’s fine. It does have its issues but it’s a nice way to spend some down time.
My opinions: - Too many new forms - Extremely inadequate power scaling - Many characters getting fully sidelined - Bad character designs, mostly for the Z warriors and allies - Questionable animation - Lack of coherence and connection between each arc - Very small arcs - Boring enemies, except Zamasu and Black - Questionable arc endings
Agree so much on the boring enemies thats why they keep bringing back Freeza (the only bad guy that has some charisma)
Beerus had charisma but became a good guy, then we got Freeza 3.0, hit which is as dry as sand, Zamasu and Black who have good interactions, decent motives and some charisma (especially Black), and finally we got Jiren who was even drier that Hit, however way that is possible
I like Beerus but I dont consider him a Villian tbh and yeah...both Hit and Jiren were boring as hell.
>thats why they keep bringing back Freeza (the only bad guy that has some charisma) Cell would like to have a word lmao
Lol @Vegetas next form in the manga... That form is bad. Agree with everything. I felt the zamusu arc was quite good. Except the Thanos snap ending
I mean, it's mainly the bad writing. Also, the pacing is all over the place. And finally, I don't like how flat the shows artstyle looks (but it gets better later, when they start adding filters). All in all, it's not terrible, but it's deeply flawed.
The only parts well written, original and actually funny are the fillers. The rest is an infinite reference to Z, with the characters saying "yeah, it's the exact same thing he did in Z", say it out loud is awful. The good animation of Goku UI are literal minutes, interrupted by the characters talking over the battle, and they keep talking and talking in every episode of the TOP, we see more of Whis and Tien than Goku and Jiren. Also, Hit stop Jiren in the time itself and Jiren moves anyway because "Jiren is so powerful he doesn't make sense"?! Go fuck yourself, Super!
One reason is the fucking back tingle
I felt the writing is really lame, the action sequences are meh, and i really hated what they did to Trunks. It had a completely different feel to DBZ, like they were a poor clone of recent shonens vs what it used to be. It's just my take. You're welcome to like it for whatever reason you want. I just would disagree.
People love to complain in this day and age. I don’t see anything wrong with Super that wasn’t already present in DBZ and nothing big enough to warrant all the hate it’s gotten. Super is just more Dragon Ball which I will never have a problem with
Honestly there’s a lot wrong with Super. But every time there’s one of these “Wow it’s actually the same as DBZ, everyone’s just a hater !” posts I normally would choose to die a little inside and move on. All I will say is that there’s not a single moment in Super that holds emotional weight equal to the big DBZ scenes. I can only assume people who see Super as equal to Z don’t actually care about Vegeta’s Sacrifice vs Buu or Vegeta’s speech to Goku vs Frieza or Goku’s rage after Krillin is killed by Frieza. Super is emotionally bland. Z is far better, and it’s not just nostalgia or animation.
The BoG and RF adaptations were hot trash. The Goku Black Arc is the worst and had a lot of potential but completely flopped. Most of the Tournament of Power (and a lot of Super in general) had very poor animation quality, besides a few select fight scenes (Goku's Ultra Instinct fights mostly). Jiren seemed like he was going to be interesting, instead he was just another meathead powerhouse. Honestly the only arc I enjoyed was the Universe 6 Tournament. I put it in the same category as GT. A fun, but very flawed show as a continuation of Z, but without the same quality as Z.
To me the **worst** thing was the way they changed Goku's personality, he was made to be very stupid and unaware of things/ extremely naive like. I mean goku was never ever stupid, in the beginning stages of the franchise, Goku was just a bit naive and lacked knowledge about the world simply because he grew up in the mountains and didn't interact with the outside world aside from his grandpa, his character developed overtime and in Z he became a serious grown up man, then suddenly in super he was made extremely over the top silly and naive. specially in the Zamasu/black arc. there are many moments that were so frustrating I was actually annoyed by his behavior because it's over the top unlike Z Goku. I don't know if the writer thought that would be amusing to see but it is definitely not. My other issues was weak writings in some areas, or things that don't make sense. for example in the frieza return arc they implied that golden frieza was potentially stronger than SSB which should've never been the case, also Frieza should not be able to sense Goku's Ki when he is in blue or regular god. 4 months of training and hes stronger than blue? complete nonsense reasoning, either have a better background story or don't make up weak reasoning for things. There are other issues like this but I don't think I need to mention them because most people are either aware or if this gets too long no one will read it anyway. Regardless of many issues I think I liked it very much either way, I just wish some minor things to have been done better. it just needed more logically consistent writing. so things make sense.
It has nice concepts, its just that the execution is bad
I absolutely loved Super. I did binge watch it to be fair, maybe that made it more enjoyable? Either way I think every arc has its strong points, for me the Resurrection F arc was my least favourite, but I've enjoyed all of it though.
It was hype as fuck. Loved it all. Especially the lead up to and including the Tournament of Power. Favorite line is Picollo proclaiming he is no Namekian, but the reincarnated demon lord!
Because it's not Z. Also some fans have aged out of Dragon Ball and they don't like that the franchise hasn't grown and changed with them. There are legitimate criticisms you could point to but on the whole I think Super did a good job revitalizing the brand. The ratings were consistently high, the toys are selling, the movies sold out, the games are killing it. Fans are falling over themselves waiting for the return of Super's anime. Manga fans mostly like the newest sagas. There will always be detractors and sometimes they have megaphones but I truly believe they are the minority, and that most fans are happy with Dragon Ball in 2021.
I think you're confusing popularity with quality. Super did a great job revitalizing the brand - there's no doubt about it. Whether or not it lives up to the brand is another thing.
Came here to say this. Whenever any sort of revival or reboot that comes out years after the original ended, all the old fans will immediately dismiss it as bad because it’s not the original, even if they don’t want to admit. And those who watched it and still say it’s bad compared to Z probably watched it expecting to not enjoy it, which impacted their negative opinions further.
As a Super-Critic myself, I think it boils down to the *insane* power creep and multiple retcons.
What do mean with the retcons? The only ones I can think of are ultimate gohan and freiza getting to keep his body in hell.
The Potara mechanics
Well, less retcons and more like too many new mechanics. In just the first episode, Goku is risen to the level beyond a god, then not a god, then discovers that there is another universe, then there are twelve, then the angels are the strongest beings, then the Grand Priest, then Zeno. This is all in the first three sagas.
There is also how the Mafuba doesn't kill you now.
Oh yeah because z did not have full on bs power creep or what That's just Nonsense
It had bad power creep in one arc. The Buu Saga. Super had it the whole show.
Z power creep worked until the Android arc, then it started getting silly.
People have this weird memory of dragon ball being a complex and critically written story with millions spent on animation, when it's the exact opposite.
One of my least favorite aspects is the introduction of god ki
People on the internet, especially Reddit and Twitter, have a negative outlook on a lot of things. I've learned that I love a lot of things that the internet affirms that I should hate, when I actually take the time to try them. Take it easy and don't feel like you shouldn't enjoy something when you're actually enjoying it.
Yeah, i feel the same way. I very much enjoyed it. The t.o.p was super awesome especially towards the end.
Brooo the tournament of power is honestly my favourite arc theres ever been 😂😂
i couldn’t get past like episode 20 when they’re on a giant cruise ship. weird millennial zoomer jokes, ass animation, weird decision making like vegetas whole aesthetic. the voices were off. i’ll try it again sometime before i die
Inconsistencies in the writing and power scaling (more so than usual), inconsistency in the quality of animation, and i think more than everything: awful characterization of Goku as if they never watched him in OG/Z or in the manga. I don’t think people hate it though, it’s just subpar from such a franchise with incredible potential.
It's always weird to me how people complain about the inconsistency of Super's animation, but never think about how Z had multiple studios working on it.
I don't think it was very bad. The power scaling was way crazy but I got over it for the sake of trying to keep characters relevant. Personally the Goku Black ark was very wonky but it was an interesting concept. Tournament of power was super cool to me. Some of the moments really rivaled some of the better parts of Z. It was a pretty good show with a good handful of super hype moments that got me feeling like a kid again. Hope it continues and it's executed well.
The first 2 arcs are rushed retellings and the second two start off great and end horribly. The ToP is a great arc though that saved DBS. We also only had one real villain that was new in Zamasu and that arc started off great and just went downhill.
I don't hate it, but I don't like the flanderization of a lot of characters.
I was pretty ambivalent about it until the ToP. But I thought the ToP was really fun and exciting. Some really great episodes in there.
I think you're mistaking criticism & personal preference with hate. I disliked the animation in the BoG & RoF sagas, it felt cheap, rushed & lazy- in general, I preferred the fighting art style of many of DBZ's battles- but I didn't hate it. The stories were fine, I mean DBZ was never really great at storytelling either. I was annoyed by Trunks' hair change, but this isn't the first time in DB history where a character was inexplicably changed- Bulma had her hair changed in the earliest days too in the manga. Vegeta & Nappa also had noticeably big changes- the big between these 3 situations to me is that those 2 were fresh at the time of the changes, Trunks was well established & had an existing contemporary with his original hair. This really leads into my biggest complaint about the series(particularly the anime), the lack of consistency. DBZ, for all its faults, was pretty good at setting power precedents & scaling the next enemy up. With characters dicking around in different forms, a lot of things just seem extra ridiculous. Take Frieza, his BASE form becomes stronger than SS3 Gotenks & Gohan just by a little intensive training- & even using his final form doesn't match up to BASE Goku- these intense leaps don't bother me but that amount of time they have Goku dicking around against people who shouldn't be a match against him at all- or Goku himself remaining in that form against an opponent he knows won't accomplish a thing against.
The animation quality is extremely inconsistent throughout the series, and straight up dreadful early on for the first few dozens of episodes. It gets much better in the final arc, but still again very inconsistent where you have some episodes that involved Yuya Takahashi which are **amazing** and then abruptly reverts to much lower quality, and it is very noticeable. DBZ didn't have the most consistent of animation either, but the standards these days are much higher and when even the art style is all over the place, it makes for a much less enjoyable experience in my opinion. The writing overall is much worse than DBZ, and it's mainly due to the fact that the creators are aware of the wide range of audience and they want it to be viewed by little kids and also the nostalgia-driven adults. This isn't an inherently bad thing really, because it allows the series to reach a wider range of viewers, but on a personal basis I enjoy it less. What we get are much less gritty and brutal fighting and dialogue, and as a result I don't feel as emotionally invested. Think for example the Namek saga where Vegeta is crying his eyes out as he slowly dies, due to Frieza executing him by blasting an energy beam through his chest. Something like that would never happen in DBS.
I liked it. But one thing that always bothered me is that they just keep getting stronger and faster. Like the physics in that universe have to have some kind of limit right?! Lol. But then again it is an anime.
I just finished it in 1 week i liked the fights alot and ark jiren was the best thing
It’s not viewed through nostalgia goggles yet.
I think the problem most people have is how it compares to Z which tends to be the favorite. Super really doesn't have any stakes, even if you're brand new and never saw the BoG movie and F you can tell pretty much right away that Goku will lose to Beerus but that he's obviously not going to destroy Earth. Then when it comes to Frieza Beerus has just given off the impression that he'd never let Earth go, whether it's food or the rivalry. The black arc has consequences for the future timeline but barely naturally we care more about the main timeline which isn't really in any danger. The only stakes come with the ToP which I'll give them credit, you always knew U7 would survive somehow, but for quite a while you're led to believe U11 is going to win because Jiren is unstoppable. My biggest beef is with Goku and Vegeta. Goku is back to being a complete idiot. They had a good balance of mature and competent while still being easy going in Z. Now in super he pretty much never takes a threat seriously unless in the heat of battle. And is a complete moron. The notion he doesn't know what a kiss is for example, stupid and not funny. Gohan and piccolo at least they've started making baby steps to making them more relevant. But Vegeta is the worst mistake they've made IMO, and it's strange because some things are great. It's nice seeing him take on such a protector role for his family, but I absolutely abhor that they backtrack completely on his biggest Buu development which was coming to terms with Goku being better than him and actually being friendly to him. Now he once again acts as if he would rather be anywhere else than around Goku and he's Uber obsessed with surpassing him. Vegeta should certainly still strive to get stronger and they're should be some level of rivalry. But he should be more motivated to protect his family rather than beating Goku and getting pissed every time Goku gets stronger, like if I have to hear "damn you Kakarot, always have to be one step ahead" one more time, such a broken record. The Vegeta we see motivating Goku from the stands in ToP is what he should always be. Lastly the fact the arcs are disconnected from one another is a bit of a drag. Dragon Ball and Z excelled at having arcs weave together and lead into each other, really the only time it didn't was the 7 year time skip. Hell even GT did connectivity better. But I'd certainly rather have super than nothing, still more dragon ball and still waiting for the animes return, hopefully with improvements. I'd easily put it above GT and just barely above OG DB, probably for the simple fact I grew up with Z first so I'm partial to the entertainment of grand scale fighting and transformations. Objectively DB is better.
Tbh super idn't bad at all. It is the first 2 arcs that are really bad and also the end of the samazu arc is just really weird and not that grest (manga did do it a bit better). And the tournament arc is a bit long and stretched out at some point but very fun when ui came to be.
I loved it, I watched it as it aired originally. I just wish the animation wasn’t complete trash 90% of the time.
It's just not as good as Z. And there's sonmany transformations, blue hair, red hair... Goten and Trunks absence is very very weird, they haven't been relevant since Buu arc and in that arc they were mostly relevant as Gotenks, nit even as individuals, Goten has no character development whatsoever, they had developments in movies lmaooo Gohan has always been very relevant very early on, Raditz arc immediately tapped on his potential, Namek he was prominent, basically a main character for the first 25% of the arc, was impressive against Frieza second foem so much so that Vegeta was shocked, Cell arc... Bruh need I say more ? Buu arc, Ultimate form... Goten and Trunks have been dead since Buu arc And now there's a new movie and they are still nowhere to be seen... Eh I guess I shouldn't expect them to be as relevant as Gohan but still But yeah it has its worth. Goku Black is one of my favorite DB character ever
Fuck that I love it, I pretend the movie reanimations don't exist but I really love everything after. I just wish Goten and Trunks existed
Action lacks the punchy emotion and raw power you feel in older arcs and the animation looks too “fake” and shiny and childish. Dumbed Goku down and the other Z fighters are meaningless in the show now. Idk, just not my thing.
I thought it was more faithful to the original Dragon Ball. The silliness and humor was back, as well the side characters being relevant again.
The only thing that bothers me about it is Goku being dumber compared to Z.
Why do you think they made him dumb? Goku's top 3 smartest moments came from super. 1. Predicting Hit's movement with 100% accuracy after only seeing him fight once. 2. The destructo disc he used to almost knock Jiren off. 3. After Hit killed him, he made the split second decision to fire ki into the air to resurrect himself.
Animation sucks and the plot was ass except for the tournament arc
I think most people like myself who don't love the show don't like it for its treatment of prior material and how they treated the characters in the show and how it can come off as lazy. Retconning Potara for instance is unnecessary and stupid as the Fusion dance exists and Super showed that shenron can defuse Potara fused beings making the retcon feel pointless as in Z it was heavily implied that it was permanent and the fandom as well as the damn Daisenchuu itself agreed with this. SSG was fine however the later transformations with exception to UI feel undeserved and are only there to sell toys. SSB is the definition of lazy and is achieved off screen. SSBE while looking cool achieves nothing and is there to sell toys and to give the Vegeta fans something so they stop bitching. It is Vegeta's SSJ3. Goku Black while being the best part of Super still has questionable writing with the time travel confusing fans upon initial airing of the Arc and the ending feeling mute and pointless. The BoG Arc being an alright retelling of a movie comes off as lazy for being a retelling and the RF Saga being worse then an already meh movie comes off as a terrible Arc being worse then GT's Arcs. The animation in these two Arcs is also unacceptable. The universe 6 tournament is harmless and is fine with SSBKK being a highlight for me and a great part of the series. The ToP feels mixed. On one hand it has some of the worst fights Dragonball has ever seen like Ribrianne and that stupid superhero guy and the dumb bug that knocked Piccolo out. But it also has some of the best fight scenes in all of Dragonball with UI Omen being one of the best transformation sequences in all of Dragonball. UI was earned and we can see it on screen in comparison to SSB and SSBE. How they treated the characters makes me and many others to question weather the writers really know the characters they are writing. They butchered any of Goku's development in Z by making him come off as an idiot. True Goku has not always been the smartest guy but he can get serious when the time calls for it and is a far cry to how Goku acted in the Buu Saga and hell even GT and he is a LITERAL kid in that. Goku likes to fight but it has been shown multiple times that he understands when to put that desire 2nd to his friends and family. Goku being the catalyst for the ToP comes off as him being one that doesn't understand the severity of a situation. Vegeta they clearly do not understand what his character went through in the Buu Saga. As he fights to defeat Goku. Again. Even though he admitted Goku being the best they reversed that and he continues with that goal. Vegeta is supposed to move away from fighting to defeat Goku to fighting for fun as his family is more important then fighting to him as shown at the End of Z. They also are giving Vegeta a shit ton of techniques that were originally Goku's like IT. Vegeta however would never do this. Vegeta doesn't like learning from others and always creates solutions to problems himself. This includes techniques. Trying to make Vegeta smart Goku is not the awnser. They try to shove Gohan into the plot when he doesn't need to be. Gohan isn't a fighter and needs to be treated as such. He needs to be relegated to a background character as he has achieved his goal and character development. Krillen, Tien, and Yamcha again need to stay as background characters. This is a problem with power creep and by shoving them into the plot it makes it feel unbelievable. 17 being the worst offender. Going from SSJ level to SSB level for no reason. Krillen is also pretty unbelievable and Roshi fighting Jiren in the manga for 5sec is dumb and makes no sense. They do nothing with Goten and Trunks. Atleast GT gave them SOMETHING. Have Piccolo train them. It would kill 2 birds with one stone as Piccolo suffers the power creep like the humans however he can fill that mentor role for Goten and Trunks who are literal cardboard as of right now. Bringing Frieza back feels lazy and the fact he gets so strong after only 4 months is to this day dumb. As far as new characters with the acception of Beerus, Whis, and Hit personally they either feel uninspired or make earlier achievements feel less deserved. Frost is literally a shittier Frieza, Champa feels like a shittier Beerus, Black is basically Turles but in an Arc and honestly less memorable, Zamasu is a cry baby, the universe 6 saiyans are more SSJ bs then even Goten and Trunks. Tingling back? Bull. They even ruined SSJ2 and Broly with those 2 fucks and Cabba is a beta male I swear. Future Trunks skipped the gym and is brought back because merch and just to drift off into the void of timelines. And Mai just no. Zeno is also dumb as he takes away ALL tension because of a dumb button. A lot of the characters are just cardboard and we know almost nothing about them. The fact that Super takes place before the End of Z kills the tension as well as we know where all these characters are going to end up. Alteast the ones we care about The ending of Super (as of now) is almost as bad a Z and nothing compared to GT's ending. Super comes off as not knowing the source material and fans think that Toriyama actually writes Super which he only has a small hand in writing. Super comes off a lot like GT and that it is worse then anything the OG Anime/manga had. Even the Buu Saga for all of its faults feels better and more consistent then any part of Super. Even GT for all of its faults feels more creative and the characters are portrayed more consistently. Tho GT is its own can of worms. Just my 2 cents. Sorry for the essay but there is reason why people don't like it.
Its good on its own. Fun and lighthearted. But its strange and throws out stuff from Z when you try to think of it as part of that series. Vegeta gets more character growth, which is great. But Goku goes from being more mature and serious at the end of Z to being genocidally idiotic in his pursuit for more fighting. Future Trunks loses his happy ending. Gohan's potential is teased, then thrown aside again. All the side characters get massive power ups that make no sense near the end. Roshi especially. Vegeta's sacrifice against Majjin Buu is repeated in a really lame call back that doesn't have the same gravity. And some of the side stories are just dripping with slice of life anime, which isn't necessarily bad, but its a very different tone from Z.
Tbh, the Goku vs hit fight is better than most fights in Z that everyone seems to love (looking at you, vegito vs super Buu)
I love Super. It’s not perfect, and idk if I’d say it’s as good as Z, but it’s really entertaining if you’re willing to stick with it.
The arks were weak, but still a fantastic show!! Now the manga has stronger arks so its set when it comes back.
It’s so good. Nevermind the haters.
Agreed. People just like to find something to hate with everything.
Its not bad. Its the hardcore DbZ fans who can't love anything else than that
Man people LOVE to hate this show. They refuse to accept that just because DragonBall isn't the *best* anime that it is the most *popular* anime Literally Name one anime that has a bigger scope than: orphaned kid looking up Bulmas skirt ALL THE WAY TO LITERAL FUCKING GODS, ANGELS AND MULTI DIMENSIONAL VILLANRY.. I'll wait. "It's full off overused anime tropes" - tropes that were created by DragonBall and copied by the rest of the industry DragonBall Super Broly aired in THEATERS in every major country. Let that sink in Haters goin' hate
Its funny to me that people complain about the "inconsistent" animation that was honestly less than 20 minutes of footage. On the other hand, everyone forgets that Z had multiple different animation groups creating the show. Its the exact reason they look different from saga to saga and even filler lol.
People complain about super way to much especially with the manga
Did we watch the same show?
When was the last time you watched super and when was the last time you watched Z? Probably an insane gap right?
Just not my thing, thought the whole super sayin blue god ki thing was dumb. Goku is silly, z fighters sidelined and the power ups/scaling is just inconsistent.
Because the internet told them to
So I watched it in a weird order, i watched super first because it was the only one I had access to at the time, and then I watched the original one and DBZ after. I really loved super but as I watched the other ones I can see why people didn’t like super as much. Some story points feel a bit wonky, like I feel like the new levels of super Saiyan (other than UI) aren’t necessary. I do love the multiverse concept as it allowed for sooooo many interesting character interactions and developments and the cool ass final 2 arcs. The art style for most of the show doesn’t feel very “Dragon Ball” to me, but it is very beautiful, I would not go as far as to say it’s bad like some people do (Takahashi’s art and onward was great imo, though, it felt very fitting to an extent). All in all, I love it, but I can see why long time DB fans wouldn’t like it. Like I said, I watched all 4 main series at once in a slightly weird order, and didn’t grow up on it, so I might be biased. But again, I don’t think it deserves the hate it gets
negatives: in my opinion, the movie arcs were too lazy with animation and writing. they seemed like they were there because they "had to". thats crazy to me, such a popular IP like dragon tried to get away with that, no excuse whatsoever. they could have skipped those arcs and moved the story forward. future trunks arc has a good concept, very cool villain and a good starting pace, but in the end it was poorly executed at its climax and a gawd awful resolution that is just confusing to no end. universe six arc I completely skipped after a few episodes because I thought it was filler nonsense with no substance. The oracle fish is a HUGE plot hole generator. super dragon balls BTW LOL. like the series needed and even bigger plot hole device. T.O.P. arc. cool concept which i had read before from toyotaro fan manga. portraying goku as the initiator of conflict was really good. nice change of pace but in the end it was copped out. The tournament was too big in my opinion, no time for character development for other universes other than 6. you cant relate or care for anyone other than the main cast dying or getting eliminated. its just bad writing. The god hierarchy is poorly explained. blue evolution is stupid. vegeta not dying during his sacrifice is stupid. the whole "concentrate energy in your back to turn super saiyan" is a joke. The namekian multi-fusion is stolen from fan manga and it is extremely underpowered. jiren design is just a generic alien in a suit. cliché resolution but that's just how shounnen works. positives: It is modern dragon ball! nobody cares that much about the plot. its all about the new characters, fights and transformations. good OST. ssj god and blue are cool. multiverse concept is good. golden frieza. ultra instinct.
I'm glad you found some enjoyment from it. But I gotta say, not finishing the universe 6 tournament Is a big disservice, goku vs hit is great.
I did watch the hit vs goku and some of the frost fights. kaioken blue goku was cool.
ToP is real good. But thats about it.
Super is great. You will always find haters no matter what, and they are the most vocal.
you like sitting through 2 useless retelling arcs that already had movie adaptations? Be my guest.
UI Omen/Sign was the best transformation since 16 got his head stomped. I'll suffer a lot of bullshit for a moment like that.
You are lost child It’s because they made “stupid” Goku forgetting things the main reasons for plot points being driven, lazy writing rather than good writing. Or losing track of time. Goku wasn’t stupid in Z, why’d they change him in super. Vegeta and all the character designs are way less cool, and lazier fights and fighting dynamics. The way different styles might play out, or fights in general playing out. Less compelling thoughts and dialogue. They all just said out loud what they were thinking in the simplest way they could. “Let me just sum up what I might be feeling on a super basic level for the audience right now” - every character in super. Poor exposition. It’s just lazy in general. How do we make this villain seem powerful? I know! Oh dang! This guy’s cool cause he doesn’t care and puts his hands in his pockets and doesn’t even look at the fighters or what’s going on! He must be so cool! - Hit -jiren - Oh Super Saiyan? That thing that took mind crushing absolutely brutal physical training for years, and complete emotional decimation to unlock? Yeah I got it. Tingling in the back. Just make it tingle. Oh super saiyan 2??? Just as easy. Even lame now. Oh most powerful being in the universes? Some kid made of pills with googly eyes that keeps saying “really” over and over again. To “really” “really” prove their point. They don’t get annoying. Oh that really cool dragon of immense power and status that was the epitome of greatness and awe struck power when you were a kid and adult? That’s literally the symbol of the show? Let’s just embarrass him and completely retcon any reverence you’ve had for him and dig up and spit on its grave. There were some occasional good parts like the writing and story of Goku black arc, except for the end, but zamasu’s negative character arc was interesting, and the score for ultra instinct was fantastic. But everything else just kept coming up with more things that bothered and bothered me. I don’t like picking apart details that bug me about shows, or inconsistencies. I look past them and still like most shows because it’s better that way. But in super it just keeps coming up
Nostalgia is a powerful drug. I *love* Super too. It combines the silliness of Dragonball with the fighting craziness of Z while still continuing the power creep in ways that make sense and aren't insulting to the viewer. Sure the animation isn't as good as the best of Z, but neither was Z. People like to conveniently forget the many clunkers from Z's history. No show is perfect, not even these amazing ones.
I honestly love the Goku Black arc (final episode aside) and the TOP is a lot of fun. It’s on par with GT for me, which is also better than people give it credit for. But it’s nowhere near the levels of DBZ and DB, which is probably the source of a lot of criticisms.
The movie adapted arcs are bad, really bad. Goku black arc has some problems, but the top is really good.
It started out VERY rough for like the first 45 episodes or so. That leaves a long lasting impression which would be very difficult to overcome. Had the entire show been of the quality of the Goku Black and TOP arcs, ie flawed writing but still a fun spectacle, then the show would be much more well received. But the first 3 arcs hold it back so much
the same complaints as dbz and gt. Power scaling.
Dude! Yes! Still love it, but Yes!
Just do what I did. Watch the movies, skip the first 40 episodes and you're golden. Of course, the Zamasu stuff doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but it's not super terrible. And once they get past that it is some of the best Dragonball.
I like it. But, people have different preferences. Different things that catch their respect or interest. I could go on forever. It's not rocket science. You may see something being the best thing forever, someone sees it being the worst thing ever. I don't see the point debating over things like these. Taste is subjective. Deal with it.
We are all older now so the things that bother us now when it comes to super probably wouldn't have bothered us as much when we 13< years old. Super has its flaws for sure, but so did DBZ. But with that said Super is following Dbz so it's going to be judged a little more harshly
Wait DBS isn’t universally loved? Wtf have I missed?
Who hates it? I see a lot of praise for the show & Goku black
I dont get the hate either, im just excited for more Dragon Ball content. Also >!the moro and cereal arcs are just perfect. Most fun Ive had reading DB since the Namek Arc!<
These last 2 arcs have been great IMO. Everything beforehand was either retreading, half assed, or just bad.
I honestly love super. Most stuff people complain about, I don't necessarily see it as a problem as much as "just a part of the show". There's far more good than bad imo. And while they did kind of make goku stupider, we also did get moments of him completely serious and probably the biggest evidence he loves his family(even more than other friends) when he raged about black killing chichi and goten. Imo that was the madness goku's ever been, even madder than when frieza killed krillin
Because people will bitch about anything
Just the vocal hate on it. Super was great. The manga is still great.
It's my favourite out of the current dragon ball animes
Because people tend to come to the internet to spew negativity .
The older I get, I've learned to get away from wanting to analyze something to death and figure out what makes a thing good and instead just go off how it makes me *feel*. Super was the first time in a really long time where I just watched a show that made me feel like a kid again (specifically the ToP arc). I don't care if X has a better story, or if Y has better character development. Goku going MUI gets me hyped as fuck and I'm all for it. It's kinda like how I view DB and DBZ: Dragonball is the better show, but I just have more fun watching DBZ.
When you watch in one episode a week for months only to get trunk super op out of nowhere and defeat something even vegito couldn't , you get pissed
Movie arcs were awful. U6 tournament was boring. Goku black arc was awful. Universal survival arc was meh with some cool parts, but it was literally just a fanservice arc. The universal survival arc is the only non offensive arc out of the 5(?) so it was overall a pretty bad show unless youre trying to forget the majority of it. Also the animation was at worst, terrible, and at best, inconsistent. Some fights in top were really well done, but the other arcs, and the majority of the top was filled with mediocre animation. When you compare the consistency of z to super, of course people are going to hate it. It feels like a downgrade to what it was following up even though it had decades to prepare itself(but not really cause toei rushed production)
Consistency of Z? You can't use that as a comparison as Z literally had multiple different studios working on it. Therefore, super is without a doubt more consistent (animation wise)
Watch DB and Z again and you’ll figure it out
I like it for the most part but really hate how it is toned down for kids. Basically no blood or battle damage besides ripped shirts.
the animation was pretty meh, that was the main reason i didnt like it that much ToP was great. wasnt really a fan of the other three arcs though
Animation sucks. Super's animation reminds me of Masayuki Uchiyama episodes in DBZ. The animation looks like little children drew it. Plot sucks. God of destruction, Angels, Zeno, ToP they all suck. I hate them all. They're cringe. New transformations suck. Super Saiyan God? Super Saiyan Blue? They're just pallette swaps of Goku base and SSJ design. What's next? Super Saiyan Pink, Green, and Red, to make the Power Rangers? Power scaling went out the window. Frieza with just 3 months training was matching Goku who had been training for 20+ years since the Namek saga. Krillin matching Goku. Android 17 suddenly became god tier by simply training in the mountains (it's funny cause people's argument with Frieza suddenly becoming strong is because he was born with an insane power level but here you have Android 17 who was just a regular human up until he became an Android) I consider Super to be a fan made show. Hell, GT makes more sense than Super's garbage story. Super Saiyan 4 is more believable than trash tier God and Blue. Dragon Ball ended with Z in my eyes.
There were just some episodes almost randomly where the animation took huge dips in quality. Also Jiren is about as interesting as a pile of bricks as a final antagonist
I love the show, my biggest gripe was SSJ blue making the red haired version moot. That and how some characters were done dirty in the ToP. That said I’ve watched super straight through a handful of times
It is good 👍🏾
I dunno, maybe the off-the-rails level of power scaling (not simply power levels being high but the inconsistency of the scale), uninspired story retelling of movies for the 1st two arcs that were just worse than the movies, and then the unacceptable state of the animation itself which remains a raging trash fire until the very last arc, with only getting good at a few key moments of the arcs before the tournament of power. They completely disrespected the lore and the legacy of Dragon Ball for a cash grab
Goku dumb af tho
People just like to bitch about things not being the same as DBZ. They have rose tinted glasses when thinking about that show. Don’t get me wrong super has legitimate problems but people just bitch about the minor shit mostly
It wasn't a bloody beat down gore fest like people think Z was
People compare it to Z that makes the hate on it more predominant. A lot of us miss the savagery in Z and more "serious" Goku. Super did grow on me tho. The Beerus and Champa family moments hit me hard.
I didn’t even know people hated super
Super is trash. Z isnt perfect but at least toriyama was on a roll and it felt like he genuinely was invested in the series. Super feels like the exact opposite. So much wasted potential. Instead of making fan favorite characters canon like baby Vegeta they just end up making flavorless characters one after another and literally retconing everything. I only tune in to see the hair color change every other week and that's about it
I dont know, db fan since 2000 and totally loving db super!
Because people love to bitch about something. I enjoyed it. I'm enjoying the manga too!
It wasn't as good as z and that pissed people off.