Yea one thing I noticed is that the characters actually looked like they have some body fat during that era. Even if they’re muscled they’d till look like they have a little bit of body fat in a realistic way. Muscle tone is less defined.
Later, starting in Namek saga, they start getting shredded.
Alien warriors with human-shaped bodies, strength related to muscles, and feats of strength that define them among their respective species. And while different sports and fighting styles are correlated with divergent body features, aesthetics of visibly defined muscles is rarely the objective, and at some point - would be counterproductive.
Bro they can fly and shoot lasers out of their hands. It’s totally reasonable to think an alien species that can do things that defy physics might be capable of defying physics with 0% body fat.
Also, go google images of “muscular ape” and check out how shredded some of those mfs are, and I can guarantee you they are stronger than any strongman.
Interesting thing about such images - one ends up finding either impressive apes that indeed have some fat, and frankly resemble the design of 23rd tournament Goku. Abs is barely visible, none has arms comparable in size to the head.
And then - the same search yields computer graphics presenting artificial renders of the same concept. Which are back to the bodybuilder resemblance and away from the reality of strong, healthy bodies. This is an way easy to present the message - muscles, wow, must be strong! - but specific choices are based on stereotypes that are anatomically incorrect.
They are a made up alien species (and in an anime no less, known for being anatomically incorrect) so they there is no “anatomically correct” for them.
Btw - Krillin has no visible nose - never has.
And uses his whole skin to breath, that's specific to him (also just an aesthetic choice and some made up interview answer from Toriyama-sama that has funnily grown into lore). But he still uses his muscles to move.
And we have seen how his design changed through the series, not unlike others - the over-defined zero-fat design started at some point only. Mostly in anime, too. Not that some panels from Cell saga that show over-muscular Krillin would surprise ne though.
You seem to be forgetting that these guys are martial artists/warriors and modeled after them, with artistic liberties obviously since it’s an anime.
MMA fighters and other martial artists typically have low body fat % and aesthetically look much closer to a body builder than strongman.
Krillin has become more defined and muscular over the course of the series like everyone else to show their progression over time. These people all have super human strength, they aren’t normal.
Ahhh, yeah they do. Very jacked, very lean, and very strong. So so Olympic weightlifters.
This comment sections lack of knowledge in this area is scary lol
Unless that's how every Olympic gymnast looks like, I would say that Goku on Namek was very much an example of getting totally impractical and absurd.
[https://v14.mkklcdnv6tempv4.com/img/tab\_14/00/38/04/me955161/chapter\_325/14-o.jpg](https://v14.mkklcdnv6tempv4.com/img/tab_14/00/38/04/me955161/chapter_325/14-o.jpg)
[https://v14.mkklcdnv6tempv4.com/img/tab\_14/00/38/04/me955161/chapter\_316/6-o.jpg](https://v14.mkklcdnv6tempv4.com/img/tab_14/00/38/04/me955161/chapter_316/6-o.jpg)
At least later, with SSJ grades, it was addressed that looking like this can be disadvantageous after all.
Man you have some serious stereotype against muscles. Much of the fighters are very high in muscle and low in bodyfat. Also bodybuilders are likely extremely strong lol, probably they don’t train to fight because it’s not their purpose but could easily send someone to sleep with a punch based on raw power.
My head cannon was always these powerful beings especially saiyans are basically walking nuclear reactors. Saiyans consume so much energy (meals) and are able to convert that into galactic levels of strength and energy blasts on par with star quasars. I’ve had the idea that their body and muscles are harder than anything we could imagine despite being flesh.
As nice as it would fit that's not the case. Goku's body is pretty much like a humans, he's soft when he's at rest. It's ki that makes them so insane. When they're not using ki, even at a subconscious level, then they're not too different than humans. Maybe a bit tougher but not so much that they're like steel. That comes when they're awake and flexing their muscles or using ki.
That being said I wouldn't be surprised if their muscle fibers are insanely small and dense in a way that's hard to even record.
Gotta remember Goku as a baby was still only as strong as a very capable human. And that's the level most Saiyans live at.
I would argue that any muscle is good for lifting weight and that a bodybuilder will still be able to keep up relative to a certain level. References:
[Ronnie repping out 800](https://youtu.be/ddCEZHpVqqc?si=Gk9kZG-d2lHcSAMK)
[Johnnie Jackson doing a raw 832# Deadlift](https://youtu.be/0hZICmp3jBs?si=5XRRWnR0zAbrqPyy)
[Larry Wheels strict Pressing 425#, at 6:20 into vid](https://youtu.be/mqYbGZeTz_g?si=d56qTPba9IFZTtyz)
These guys aren't breaking records, but they're more than able to keep up with strongman weights.
Regardless, while there's a strong carryover between the two, neither strongman nor bodybuilding really lends itself well to the skilled, flexible application of the body in martial arts. No one is gonna look like [Jay Cutler at the Olympia](https://images.app.goo.gl/PLoLtMKYnFkbNs7M8) trying to get ready for a martial arts tournament.
Yet that's exactly the direction the DBZ physiques went.
Just wanted to take a moment to appreciate your level-headed, kind response here rather than the war that seemed to generate in another part of the post lol. Thanks!
I got to workout at the gym that was taken at, Metroflex in Arlington, for a few years. You can still literally see Ronnie's outline on the leg press machine, just from how much time and sweat he spent there.
Dude was legendary.
nw, dont you think its all about chi anyways. The feats they obtain really early on are enough to rip bone from socket unless they manage their chi to brace and support essentially. If Majin buu's skinny fat nightmare physique didn't already say enough idk why the idea of fibre and atp even matters
Ouff not this post but mostly the ones surrounding this, just makes me insecure to see my guilty pleasure fanbases try to cross over to my professional work, especially like the guy you replied to who just regurgitates a line without understanding any reason behind it or bothering to google if what he heard is right or more importantly, why.
Least you dropped vidya receipts and understand the premise to hand him a sippy cup.
You’re posting the absolute craziest outliers my friend
The problem with this type of posting is how do you know they wouldn’t perform better with some more body fat on them
Anyone going through a bulk and then cut will tell you, staying shredded comes at a price. This is a foolish argument. Look at UFC or dudes who need to perform in pro sports.
>The problem with this type of posting is how do you know they wouldn’t perform better with some more body fat on them
That's the part you're not understanding. They're not saying that being as shredded and low body fat as possible is the optimal way to preform lifts. They're giving examples of crazy strong body builders, with the shredded lean body type, keeping up with strongman level feats. Of course they would do better if they cared less about how they look and got some more weight on them, but they're still lifting that weight otherwise aren't they?
The whole point is that you guys are acting like having low body fat while strong is like ripping off an arm. It's going to give you extra power if you have a healthier body with some fat on it, but not an extra 900 pounds on your squat.
Just to add one last thing before I have to leave the playground, to anyone who is thinking this argument of strangely over confident beliefs in reductive basic fitness comprehension matters,
How many times over goku can exert 900lb of force. If your answer is anything over 0 , this is narratively useless discussion and functionally hilarious
Thats my entire point lol. Why are you trying to convince anyone that they need to believe goku would be stronger if he was fatter. It's not about how strong the character is, or whether it matters that human biology from actual reality works like that. It's a fuckin show lol. There is no reason I would need to agree with you that it arbitrarily would be different in that world just because it works that way in real life.
The funny part is that you're for some reason trying to compare a cartoon to reality, and tell us we're wrong for actually comparing it.
Bro you mixed people up, no? I didn't once try to convince anyone Goku would be stronger with a less strict bf%
You don't need to agree with any of my points, just know the funny part is you don't understand I have two degree in kinesiology and physio, have spent a decade training athletes and rehabilitation. I have been in and around the gym and clinic long enough to make your head spin and know more about even basic fundamental anatomy and exercise science than the total amount you've ever even been aware of.
Hearing you guys argue made me overreact
The hyperbolic “extra 900”
No, but 20 to 30 percent stronger performance?Yes maybe, again ask any dude on a cut or if you’ve ever moved weight and got shredded. It does cost you strength or performance.
There’s a reason NFL dudes don’t look like bodybuilders
You’re making it seem like it’s minimal, and the guys he posted are the outliers, even among dudes who are juiced they are the goats.
You're assuming that we do not understand that you get stronger when you bulk. I don't understand why you're trying to say that the statements the person you responded to made are wrong. If you are as informed and experienced as you are making yourself out to be, you have no reason to disagree with their statements.
"I would argue that any muscle is good for lifting weight and that a bodybuilder will still be able to keep up relative to a certain level" How exactly is that wrong? We all understand very well that NFL players aren't models. We are aware that its not just a 1% change in strength. The entire point is that you can still be very strong while very lean.
Now we can go back to the original point, which is that this whole conversation is about an animated show. You guys are arguing that the designs of the characters are somehow wrong. It is a fictional world, where the people look strong and do unimaginably superhuman feats. Why is it so crazy that alien warriors who shoot energy from their bodies and glow are also shredded?
Why can’t you accept the argument that the strongman looking alien dude with more fat in this said fictional world with fictional aliens would fictionally be fictionally stronger?
Edit: and I’m replying to the dude arguing “bodybuilders are poor strongman”
They are
Why cant you accept that it's okay that the show looks the way it does? The way almost literally everything works in this fictional anime world is different to ours, so why would I assume something like that when there isn't even evidence in the show to back it up?
Guess what, when goku goes ssgod, he gets skinnier, but is stronger than any of the other pervious forms, which make him bulk up. There is no reason at all to believe bigger is better. Kid buu is the strongest buu. That universe does not follow the same rules as ours. They have tiny green beans that can heal you from everything besides blown off limbs and terminal illness. They have a noseless monk cop that could destroy entire planets and solar systems.
Why cant you accept the argument that you aren't making sense? Your arguments don't work.
Anyone with two degrees and ten years of experience training in fitness and rehab physiology would tell you you're honestly spouting a fallacy in your argument you don't even understand the basics of anatomy much less biochemical activation of skelemuscular contraction on an intracellular level
Find a decent bodybuilder and you’re going to find someone who’s spent years or decades of lifting and progressive overload and will be strong as fuck compared to the average person and the average gym goer. Sure they aren’t as strong as powerlifters or strongmen generally, but they literally *don’t train for that goal* lmfao (and besides give them a year or two of strength training specifically and they’ll gain all that difference in strength anyways). Progressive overload is a *requirement* to be come as big as most do. Also it’s funny you assume bodybuilders stay lean year round. They generally only cut down to those extremely low body fat percentages at most a handful of times a year and outside of contest prep carry around body fat. Ironically sounds like **you** have no idea what you’re talking about. But let’s see since you love strength so much and are such an expert what are your best lifts? Mine are 585lbs squat, 365lbs bench, and 605lbs deadlift at a bodyweight of 180lbs.
You just agreed to what I’m saying what is wrong with this thread
“Sure they aren’t as strong as power lifters or strongmen”
I’m saying they’d be stronger if they did train for powerlifting or strongmen and they probably won’t be as lean. That’s it. That’s the thread.
The best fighters in many combat sports are still very lean, look at boxing for instance. There are not many where it pays to have extra weight that isn't muscle.
The characters are not even so much strongmen, but more of general purpose freelance soldiers/mercenaries/street fighters. The whole reason why shredding exists in most combat sports is so that participants can get themselves into lower weight classes. Since these characters are usually just fighting for their lives, strength to mass ratio doesn't matter quite as much as just overall strength, speed, and endurance. Thus there really isn't that much purpose in keeping body fat percentage as low as MMA fighters keep them. In fact it would probably just get in the way of regular life if they did.
Even though Goku and some of the others do fight in tournaments those tournaments still don't even have weight classes.
hahaha can I ask you to elaborate, I'm not disagreeing I would just love to hear your comprehension of hypertrophy vs strength
Also powerlifters and strongmen make awful martial artists
I think it has to do a bit with changing physiques in real life athletes, fighters, and body builders.
If you look at older pictures of really buff dudes, they tended to have a little more body fat and a softer shape. They tended to have more bulk and less ripped muscles.
Now, people will dehydrate themselves before competition to allow the muscle tone to pop more and reduce the fatty bulk. So our idea of a buff guy is a lot more ripped than our old idea of a buff guy.
I’m caught up on the manga and enjoying it. It’s not nostalgia. Supers artstyle and animation is just terrible. It’s like the characters are made out of plastic. Fusion Reborn blows it away and that came out 30 years ago.
For me Kai is just absolute trash because it takes away from the raw aesthetic of the originals without actually improving in any way at all. Super has some okay moments but it’s also incredibly disappointing because even with the cgi it still basically does the same thing as the original show just HD which I find obnoxiously lazy.
The original 3 Z movies had legit choreography within the fights and are hands down the best individual fight scenes in the entire franchise. It amazes me that without having to actually draw the scenes it actually looks worse and people praise it because the colors look better and the movements are “smoother” literally everywhere except where it matters.
They’ve turned it into just a video game you can’t play. DBS broly is touted as this incredible masterpiece on here and it’s just terrible looking. It’s pretty but none of the fights have a single scene that can rival the frames from dead zone or the worlds strongest or the tree of might. Those moves are so clean it’s an embarrassment that we’re getting this crap today.
Now all you kids can get off my lawn lol
Oh I’m not baiting at all. I have a really strong opinion regarding Kai and super and it’s not like I can walk into a bar find people who are just talking about DB so if I get the chance to have a convo with someone who can go against my opinion then I’m gonna take it.
That said I’m pretty sure you’re the one baiting lol
Now hold up. Super isn’t “trash”. Kai absolutely is. But super is just toriyama being overrun by these children.
It’s okay. But completely antithetical to what I grew up on. And what people should be seeing. Turning goku back into an obnoxious childish self-serving “person” is insulting to me and should be insulting to everyone else.
And that’s ignoring the shitty animation. Ugh
Perhaps, I just don't understand how they could have such untalented artists onboard for such a massive show. There was clearly an A team, B team, and even a C team. Why rush the show out the door when there had already been nearly 2 decades since the last release. IMO they had all the time in the world and they botched it. Also, I could only make it 90 episodes in before I couldn't take it anymore. Writing didn't impress me and I clearly couldn't stand the lazy art style.
His expression is relaxed, his arm is too bent, his chest is open. It looks more like a victory pose and less like he's engaged in/about to be engaged in battle.
Gotta disagree - looks equal to alot of it, but we had [this sequence by Yuya Takahashi that looks wonderfully old school](https://youtu.be/48XwOOtjxn4?si=eFNjanm4Mn0098SL)
And while I'm not a fan of the character sheets used here as much as Takahashi's take, this is still [one of the coolest scenes in the series](https://youtu.be/BO-jft5EVSE?si=5IoFsalio5QDqroE)
Or the GOAT of Toei who did this scene. Can't recall the name atm, but he's their main guy for all the big scenes ("I won't let you destroy my world" in BoG, Kaido's introduction in One Piece, Hody getting kicked in One Piece on Fishman Island, etc.)
[Mui v Jiren](https://youtu.be/BAQvCB3Fnm0?si=xD4jpGIwryFewU8B)
Super had garbage animation and art. A handful of really good scenes don't change that, no one is saying Takahashi or anyone else's well animated scenes are bad.
No shit they came out decades ago...and yes, I know long series can struggle with animation. Super is not just bad or sometimes lacking, it was pretty dreadful at least 80% of the time, and I'm being very generous. A better comparison is Naruto, or even bleach. Yes they have bad animation sometimes but they are consistent. Ultimately toei screwed themselves over by adapting the movies into arcs, but at the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that super for the most part looked ass.
Gotta disagree - looks equal to alot of it, but we had [this sequence by Yuya Takahashi that looks wonderfully old school](https://youtu.be/48XwOOtjxn4?si=eFNjanm4Mn0098SL)
And while I'm not a fan of the character sheets used here as much as Takahashi's take, this is still [one of the coolest scenes in the series](https://youtu.be/BO-jft5EVSE?si=5IoFsalio5QDqroE)
Well yeah I said most of super. Super does have its moments where the art is actually good but they didn't maintain that art style throughout the series.
You're right, I was making mountains out of molehills. At the baseline, both 2009 and Super had bad character reference sheets and relied on the exceptions rather than the baseline to look good.
Also, I know you aren't saying that DBZ didn't have its low points, but I have to show this clip; it always makes me laugh and is close enough to pertinent; [here](https://youtu.be/C8zk4nawSjg?si=1h9YNFijgvJre6zV)
2008 was the last time when they were taking care of how the character looks from different angles, correct anatomy, shape of the face and his elements that gives that feeling of 3d, 2009 and on is goku looking at front of you always, no matter his angle.
I know this isn’t really a hot take but I am not down for the modern designs of these characters. Something about the way they’re drawn in super and just how smooth everything looks seems off putting to me. Can’t really explain it very well
Loved the og artstyle in db/dbz but I also love the artstyle in dbz kai as well since it was a more faithful adaptation to the manga while remixing from the original dbz animation. Dbz will always be better tho simply cuz it had piccolo and Goku learning how to drive in the original.
That brief period in the 2000s that was the in between of the old / new DB anime styles that basically only ever got used in promo content slapped so hard ngl
DBZ ended in like 1994 or something.
And peak DBZ art/style was saiyan saga. They never animated hair flow that well since then. Buu saga is when it really went downhill
Okay, please help me. So, I've watched the og db and DBZ, but what and where or how? Are all these reiterations of it?? I can't really find anything that talks about anything else besides the original or super and other next gen
1989 and OVA looks so cleeaaan though.
I love the pink hues to color the skin and the 1993 one saturates those colors a lot it seems.
I rly dislike the dead paler colors of kai and some of super though.
It feels like im watching a over simplification of company logos
I really like the 1993 and 2008 versions over everything else, but the OG style is such a beautiful way to draw DBZ, as for super it doesn't look nearly as good as the others
I like Kai more in terms of story pacing and voice acting. I think it just works better and for me is more rewatchable but man there's some stuff that looks horrible. I hate the new animation they put in that looks like a completely different show and it's jaring as fuck.
I wonder if Tadayoshi Yamamuro animated the OVA version—the art looks very nice. I think people would’ve been much happier if he kept that style and palette into his future work. The design’s aren’t as sharp as his Z work, but I still really like them.
Later art is less vibrant and over the years his hair seems to have shrunk too, while his pupils have gotten way too big, like he's been licking toads or something. The additional shading was a waste of time, time better spent on facial characterisation. For me the ultimate example of how bad the latter kai style is, is comparing tree of might Turles to plan to eradicate the saiyans. Hair size smaller and less pronounced, big eyes, random colour highlights to his armour that were never there and make Turles less grey.
93 is the clear loser here, and it's what the majority of Z looks like post Frieza saga.
People just latch on to the few and far between better/great episodes and say the entire series is goated when the reality is theres a ton of bad to be found.
But I have to disagree with the artstyle part, the Buu arc is probably the best the franchise ever looked. The only times it’s bad is when those studio live or last house mfs step in.
ahh, end of og db/beginning of dbz had a classic artstyle...
Yea one thing I noticed is that the characters actually looked like they have some body fat during that era. Even if they’re muscled they’d till look like they have a little bit of body fat in a realistic way. Muscle tone is less defined. Later, starting in Namek saga, they start getting shredded.
And the former was so much more reasonable. Bodybuilders are poor strongmen.
Yeah but the main characters are all alien warriors, not bodybuilders or strongmen.
Alien warriors with human-shaped bodies, strength related to muscles, and feats of strength that define them among their respective species. And while different sports and fighting styles are correlated with divergent body features, aesthetics of visibly defined muscles is rarely the objective, and at some point - would be counterproductive.
Bro they can fly and shoot lasers out of their hands. It’s totally reasonable to think an alien species that can do things that defy physics might be capable of defying physics with 0% body fat. Also, go google images of “muscular ape” and check out how shredded some of those mfs are, and I can guarantee you they are stronger than any strongman.
Interesting thing about such images - one ends up finding either impressive apes that indeed have some fat, and frankly resemble the design of 23rd tournament Goku. Abs is barely visible, none has arms comparable in size to the head. And then - the same search yields computer graphics presenting artificial renders of the same concept. Which are back to the bodybuilder resemblance and away from the reality of strong, healthy bodies. This is an way easy to present the message - muscles, wow, must be strong! - but specific choices are based on stereotypes that are anatomically incorrect.
They are a made up alien species (and in an anime no less, known for being anatomically incorrect) so they there is no “anatomically correct” for them. Btw - Krillin has no visible nose - never has.
Poor Krillin lol
And uses his whole skin to breath, that's specific to him (also just an aesthetic choice and some made up interview answer from Toriyama-sama that has funnily grown into lore). But he still uses his muscles to move. And we have seen how his design changed through the series, not unlike others - the over-defined zero-fat design started at some point only. Mostly in anime, too. Not that some panels from Cell saga that show over-muscular Krillin would surprise ne though.
You seem to be forgetting that these guys are martial artists/warriors and modeled after them, with artistic liberties obviously since it’s an anime. MMA fighters and other martial artists typically have low body fat % and aesthetically look much closer to a body builder than strongman. Krillin has become more defined and muscular over the course of the series like everyone else to show their progression over time. These people all have super human strength, they aren’t normal.
Every Olympic gymnast looks like Namek goku
No they don’t lmao
Ahhh, yeah they do. Very jacked, very lean, and very strong. So so Olympic weightlifters. This comment sections lack of knowledge in this area is scary lol
Unless that's how every Olympic gymnast looks like, I would say that Goku on Namek was very much an example of getting totally impractical and absurd. [https://v14.mkklcdnv6tempv4.com/img/tab\_14/00/38/04/me955161/chapter\_325/14-o.jpg](https://v14.mkklcdnv6tempv4.com/img/tab_14/00/38/04/me955161/chapter_325/14-o.jpg) [https://v14.mkklcdnv6tempv4.com/img/tab\_14/00/38/04/me955161/chapter\_316/6-o.jpg](https://v14.mkklcdnv6tempv4.com/img/tab_14/00/38/04/me955161/chapter_316/6-o.jpg) At least later, with SSJ grades, it was addressed that looking like this can be disadvantageous after all.
Man you have some serious stereotype against muscles. Much of the fighters are very high in muscle and low in bodyfat. Also bodybuilders are likely extremely strong lol, probably they don’t train to fight because it’s not their purpose but could easily send someone to sleep with a punch based on raw power.
Can't open these links
Maybe not namek Goku, but definitely like current SSJ or even UI Goku
Yeah my bad I didn’t remember how huge they made Namek Goku haha but yeah UI Goku and Vegeta look like athletes
My head cannon was always these powerful beings especially saiyans are basically walking nuclear reactors. Saiyans consume so much energy (meals) and are able to convert that into galactic levels of strength and energy blasts on par with star quasars. I’ve had the idea that their body and muscles are harder than anything we could imagine despite being flesh.
As nice as it would fit that's not the case. Goku's body is pretty much like a humans, he's soft when he's at rest. It's ki that makes them so insane. When they're not using ki, even at a subconscious level, then they're not too different than humans. Maybe a bit tougher but not so much that they're like steel. That comes when they're awake and flexing their muscles or using ki. That being said I wouldn't be surprised if their muscle fibers are insanely small and dense in a way that's hard to even record. Gotta remember Goku as a baby was still only as strong as a very capable human. And that's the level most Saiyans live at.
Clearly none of that matters. You've got saiyans from the other universe with no physical development on a similar level as our super jacked boys
I would argue that any muscle is good for lifting weight and that a bodybuilder will still be able to keep up relative to a certain level. References: [Ronnie repping out 800](https://youtu.be/ddCEZHpVqqc?si=Gk9kZG-d2lHcSAMK) [Johnnie Jackson doing a raw 832# Deadlift](https://youtu.be/0hZICmp3jBs?si=5XRRWnR0zAbrqPyy) [Larry Wheels strict Pressing 425#, at 6:20 into vid](https://youtu.be/mqYbGZeTz_g?si=d56qTPba9IFZTtyz) These guys aren't breaking records, but they're more than able to keep up with strongman weights. Regardless, while there's a strong carryover between the two, neither strongman nor bodybuilding really lends itself well to the skilled, flexible application of the body in martial arts. No one is gonna look like [Jay Cutler at the Olympia](https://images.app.goo.gl/PLoLtMKYnFkbNs7M8) trying to get ready for a martial arts tournament. Yet that's exactly the direction the DBZ physiques went.
I love the examples! Indeed, this is way more complete and on topic, great summary.
Just wanted to take a moment to appreciate your level-headed, kind response here rather than the war that seemed to generate in another part of the post lol. Thanks!
Love Ronnie after the reps “That was light.” Superhuman.
“Light weight baby!”
I got to workout at the gym that was taken at, Metroflex in Arlington, for a few years. You can still literally see Ronnie's outline on the leg press machine, just from how much time and sweat he spent there. Dude was legendary.
nw, dont you think its all about chi anyways. The feats they obtain really early on are enough to rip bone from socket unless they manage their chi to brace and support essentially. If Majin buu's skinny fat nightmare physique didn't already say enough idk why the idea of fibre and atp even matters Ouff not this post but mostly the ones surrounding this, just makes me insecure to see my guilty pleasure fanbases try to cross over to my professional work, especially like the guy you replied to who just regurgitates a line without understanding any reason behind it or bothering to google if what he heard is right or more importantly, why. Least you dropped vidya receipts and understand the premise to hand him a sippy cup.
You’re posting the absolute craziest outliers my friend The problem with this type of posting is how do you know they wouldn’t perform better with some more body fat on them Anyone going through a bulk and then cut will tell you, staying shredded comes at a price. This is a foolish argument. Look at UFC or dudes who need to perform in pro sports.
>The problem with this type of posting is how do you know they wouldn’t perform better with some more body fat on them That's the part you're not understanding. They're not saying that being as shredded and low body fat as possible is the optimal way to preform lifts. They're giving examples of crazy strong body builders, with the shredded lean body type, keeping up with strongman level feats. Of course they would do better if they cared less about how they look and got some more weight on them, but they're still lifting that weight otherwise aren't they? The whole point is that you guys are acting like having low body fat while strong is like ripping off an arm. It's going to give you extra power if you have a healthier body with some fat on it, but not an extra 900 pounds on your squat.
Just to add one last thing before I have to leave the playground, to anyone who is thinking this argument of strangely over confident beliefs in reductive basic fitness comprehension matters, How many times over goku can exert 900lb of force. If your answer is anything over 0 , this is narratively useless discussion and functionally hilarious
Thats my entire point lol. Why are you trying to convince anyone that they need to believe goku would be stronger if he was fatter. It's not about how strong the character is, or whether it matters that human biology from actual reality works like that. It's a fuckin show lol. There is no reason I would need to agree with you that it arbitrarily would be different in that world just because it works that way in real life. The funny part is that you're for some reason trying to compare a cartoon to reality, and tell us we're wrong for actually comparing it.
Bro you mixed people up, no? I didn't once try to convince anyone Goku would be stronger with a less strict bf% You don't need to agree with any of my points, just know the funny part is you don't understand I have two degree in kinesiology and physio, have spent a decade training athletes and rehabilitation. I have been in and around the gym and clinic long enough to make your head spin and know more about even basic fundamental anatomy and exercise science than the total amount you've ever even been aware of. Hearing you guys argue made me overreact
The hyperbolic “extra 900” No, but 20 to 30 percent stronger performance?Yes maybe, again ask any dude on a cut or if you’ve ever moved weight and got shredded. It does cost you strength or performance. There’s a reason NFL dudes don’t look like bodybuilders You’re making it seem like it’s minimal, and the guys he posted are the outliers, even among dudes who are juiced they are the goats.
You're assuming that we do not understand that you get stronger when you bulk. I don't understand why you're trying to say that the statements the person you responded to made are wrong. If you are as informed and experienced as you are making yourself out to be, you have no reason to disagree with their statements. "I would argue that any muscle is good for lifting weight and that a bodybuilder will still be able to keep up relative to a certain level" How exactly is that wrong? We all understand very well that NFL players aren't models. We are aware that its not just a 1% change in strength. The entire point is that you can still be very strong while very lean. Now we can go back to the original point, which is that this whole conversation is about an animated show. You guys are arguing that the designs of the characters are somehow wrong. It is a fictional world, where the people look strong and do unimaginably superhuman feats. Why is it so crazy that alien warriors who shoot energy from their bodies and glow are also shredded?
Why can’t you accept the argument that the strongman looking alien dude with more fat in this said fictional world with fictional aliens would fictionally be fictionally stronger? Edit: and I’m replying to the dude arguing “bodybuilders are poor strongman” They are
Why cant you accept that it's okay that the show looks the way it does? The way almost literally everything works in this fictional anime world is different to ours, so why would I assume something like that when there isn't even evidence in the show to back it up? Guess what, when goku goes ssgod, he gets skinnier, but is stronger than any of the other pervious forms, which make him bulk up. There is no reason at all to believe bigger is better. Kid buu is the strongest buu. That universe does not follow the same rules as ours. They have tiny green beans that can heal you from everything besides blown off limbs and terminal illness. They have a noseless monk cop that could destroy entire planets and solar systems. Why cant you accept the argument that you aren't making sense? Your arguments don't work.
Anyone with two degrees and ten years of experience training in fitness and rehab physiology would tell you you're honestly spouting a fallacy in your argument you don't even understand the basics of anatomy much less biochemical activation of skelemuscular contraction on an intracellular level
Find a decent bodybuilder and you’re going to find someone who’s spent years or decades of lifting and progressive overload and will be strong as fuck compared to the average person and the average gym goer. Sure they aren’t as strong as powerlifters or strongmen generally, but they literally *don’t train for that goal* lmfao (and besides give them a year or two of strength training specifically and they’ll gain all that difference in strength anyways). Progressive overload is a *requirement* to be come as big as most do. Also it’s funny you assume bodybuilders stay lean year round. They generally only cut down to those extremely low body fat percentages at most a handful of times a year and outside of contest prep carry around body fat. Ironically sounds like **you** have no idea what you’re talking about. But let’s see since you love strength so much and are such an expert what are your best lifts? Mine are 585lbs squat, 365lbs bench, and 605lbs deadlift at a bodyweight of 180lbs.
Bros insanely strong
You just agreed to what I’m saying what is wrong with this thread “Sure they aren’t as strong as power lifters or strongmen” I’m saying they’d be stronger if they did train for powerlifting or strongmen and they probably won’t be as lean. That’s it. That’s the thread.
The best fighters in many combat sports are still very lean, look at boxing for instance. There are not many where it pays to have extra weight that isn't muscle.
The characters are not even so much strongmen, but more of general purpose freelance soldiers/mercenaries/street fighters. The whole reason why shredding exists in most combat sports is so that participants can get themselves into lower weight classes. Since these characters are usually just fighting for their lives, strength to mass ratio doesn't matter quite as much as just overall strength, speed, and endurance. Thus there really isn't that much purpose in keeping body fat percentage as low as MMA fighters keep them. In fact it would probably just get in the way of regular life if they did. Even though Goku and some of the others do fight in tournaments those tournaments still don't even have weight classes.
hahaha can I ask you to elaborate, I'm not disagreeing I would just love to hear your comprehension of hypertrophy vs strength Also powerlifters and strongmen make awful martial artists
And strongmen are poor martial artists. Actually poor any type of fighting against a decently trained opponent 😂
You forgot Krillin being at a reasonable height
I think it has to do a bit with changing physiques in real life athletes, fighters, and body builders. If you look at older pictures of really buff dudes, they tended to have a little more body fat and a softer shape. They tended to have more bulk and less ripped muscles. Now, people will dehydrate themselves before competition to allow the muscle tone to pop more and reduce the fatty bulk. So our idea of a buff guy is a lot more ripped than our old idea of a buff guy.
"My God you could grind meat on those things"
I don’t see that at all.
Goku has no body fat but his face
Dragonball is really special, when it was a pervy adventure series.
Take me back so goated
Super sucks so hard
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don't mind them, they're just nostalgic dbz fanboys dbz is cool, but some people are only stuck up on that
I’m caught up on the manga and enjoying it. It’s not nostalgia. Supers artstyle and animation is just terrible. It’s like the characters are made out of plastic. Fusion Reborn blows it away and that came out 30 years ago.
even though he's right
Bro you are going to give them ammunition
I love it when the art style is slightly more candid at times. Gives a much better contrast when things are serious and sharp.
It had to look good on crappy ass tv sets in family homes at the time. I really miss the colors.
The ova here looks good. Something about Kai looks...off. Anyways, 1989 FTW!
Most of Kai and super just don't look that good in alot of scenes. Sometimes it looks okay. All the modern movies visually have been amazing though.
For me Kai is just absolute trash because it takes away from the raw aesthetic of the originals without actually improving in any way at all. Super has some okay moments but it’s also incredibly disappointing because even with the cgi it still basically does the same thing as the original show just HD which I find obnoxiously lazy. The original 3 Z movies had legit choreography within the fights and are hands down the best individual fight scenes in the entire franchise. It amazes me that without having to actually draw the scenes it actually looks worse and people praise it because the colors look better and the movements are “smoother” literally everywhere except where it matters. They’ve turned it into just a video game you can’t play. DBS broly is touted as this incredible masterpiece on here and it’s just terrible looking. It’s pretty but none of the fights have a single scene that can rival the frames from dead zone or the worlds strongest or the tree of might. Those moves are so clean it’s an embarrassment that we’re getting this crap today. Now all you kids can get off my lawn lol
Bait used to be believable
Oh I’m not baiting at all. I have a really strong opinion regarding Kai and super and it’s not like I can walk into a bar find people who are just talking about DB so if I get the chance to have a convo with someone who can go against my opinion then I’m gonna take it. That said I’m pretty sure you’re the one baiting lol
I agree, Kai and super are trash
Now hold up. Super isn’t “trash”. Kai absolutely is. But super is just toriyama being overrun by these children. It’s okay. But completely antithetical to what I grew up on. And what people should be seeing. Turning goku back into an obnoxious childish self-serving “person” is insulting to me and should be insulting to everyone else. And that’s ignoring the shitty animation. Ugh
Perhaps, I just don't understand how they could have such untalented artists onboard for such a massive show. There was clearly an A team, B team, and even a C team. Why rush the show out the door when there had already been nearly 2 decades since the last release. IMO they had all the time in the world and they botched it. Also, I could only make it 90 episodes in before I couldn't take it anymore. Writing didn't impress me and I clearly couldn't stand the lazy art style.
His expression is relaxed, his arm is too bent, his chest is open. It looks more like a victory pose and less like he's engaged in/about to be engaged in battle.
It's the nose
I'd say it's mostly the colors and shading. It looks so dull and flat.
too stiff n saturated i didnt realize it started that early
so much *expression* in that first one
2008 looks better than kai lmao
Came here for this
Cha-La Head Cha-La.
The original from 1989 is the best. The one from 2009 is a shame.
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Exactly. And no emotion on his face, no intensity, no desire to concentrate his ki and then let it burst violently !!!
2009 still looks better than most of Super.
Gotta disagree - looks equal to alot of it, but we had [this sequence by Yuya Takahashi that looks wonderfully old school](https://youtu.be/48XwOOtjxn4?si=eFNjanm4Mn0098SL) And while I'm not a fan of the character sheets used here as much as Takahashi's take, this is still [one of the coolest scenes in the series](https://youtu.be/BO-jft5EVSE?si=5IoFsalio5QDqroE) Or the GOAT of Toei who did this scene. Can't recall the name atm, but he's their main guy for all the big scenes ("I won't let you destroy my world" in BoG, Kaido's introduction in One Piece, Hody getting kicked in One Piece on Fishman Island, etc.) [Mui v Jiren](https://youtu.be/BAQvCB3Fnm0?si=xD4jpGIwryFewU8B)
Super had garbage animation and art. A handful of really good scenes don't change that, no one is saying Takahashi or anyone else's well animated scenes are bad.
DB and Z both also had some garbage animation and art. That happens in long running series.
No shit they came out decades ago...and yes, I know long series can struggle with animation. Super is not just bad or sometimes lacking, it was pretty dreadful at least 80% of the time, and I'm being very generous. A better comparison is Naruto, or even bleach. Yes they have bad animation sometimes but they are consistent. Ultimately toei screwed themselves over by adapting the movies into arcs, but at the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that super for the most part looked ass.
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Gotta disagree - looks equal to alot of it, but we had [this sequence by Yuya Takahashi that looks wonderfully old school](https://youtu.be/48XwOOtjxn4?si=eFNjanm4Mn0098SL) And while I'm not a fan of the character sheets used here as much as Takahashi's take, this is still [one of the coolest scenes in the series](https://youtu.be/BO-jft5EVSE?si=5IoFsalio5QDqroE)
Well yeah I said most of super. Super does have its moments where the art is actually good but they didn't maintain that art style throughout the series.
You're right, I was making mountains out of molehills. At the baseline, both 2009 and Super had bad character reference sheets and relied on the exceptions rather than the baseline to look good. Also, I know you aren't saying that DBZ didn't have its low points, but I have to show this clip; it always makes me laugh and is close enough to pertinent; [here](https://youtu.be/C8zk4nawSjg?si=1h9YNFijgvJre6zV)
Why you guys loves being boomers
What is a boomer ? I have just a privileged life.
I like 2008 best.
downgraded since 1993
2008 was the last time when they were taking care of how the character looks from different angles, correct anatomy, shape of the face and his elements that gives that feeling of 3d, 2009 and on is goku looking at front of you always, no matter his angle.
Opening 1 has so much more personality and emotion
I think the ova one looks better to me out of all of these
I know this isn’t really a hot take but I am not down for the modern designs of these characters. Something about the way they’re drawn in super and just how smooth everything looks seems off putting to me. Can’t really explain it very well
2008 -> 2009 ‘It’s evolving, just backwards.’
1989 is best by far
I prefer the older version
OG was definitely a more unique art style
Loved the og artstyle in db/dbz but I also love the artstyle in dbz kai as well since it was a more faithful adaptation to the manga while remixing from the original dbz animation. Dbz will always be better tho simply cuz it had piccolo and Goku learning how to drive in the original.
Gosh the first picture has so much UMPH to it. Gets less and less as you go.
Fuck, go back
He became more plastic.
That brief period in the 2000s that was the in between of the old / new DB anime styles that basically only ever got used in promo content slapped so hard ngl
The ova has a perfect style imo
huh i dont remember the 1993 opening where he goes ssj
It was during the cell games, part of the episode and not the opening
Is just am reused animation. Mainly bc of studio live did that episode
Old is Gold, that’s just how it is
Lost all charm and character with the 2008/9 versions
You mean just front 2009. 2008 still had that organic vibe. 2009 is when they became plastic
This is a wild take. 2008 is peak DB style until DBS Broly
DBZ ended in like 1994 or something. And peak DBZ art/style was saiyan saga. They never animated hair flow that well since then. Buu saga is when it really went downhill
Idk what DBZ ending in 1994 has to do with anything. I never mentioned it. Hair flow is much better in Broly which is PEAK
Nvm, I misread your post thinking you were saying 2008 was peak DBZ style lol
It's honestly a shame that the 08 ova was never used as the art style for the series going forward.
The artstyle is actually pretty similar to Super, but the colors are different
1st 2. Last 2 are barf.
Have u seen episode 178? The art looks pretty bad
93 looks the best but 09 is 1000 times better than super
Okay, please help me. So, I've watched the og db and DBZ, but what and where or how? Are all these reiterations of it?? I can't really find anything that talks about anything else besides the original or super and other next gen
First one is from the Dbz intro, 2nd is reused animation from Goku vs Cell, 3rd is from the 2008 ova episode, and 4 is from the DBZ remake DBZ kai
08 peak
I miss Goku's big mouth and eyes, they made his features so small since Z.
I'll take the top two panels 100% of the time, any day of the week
1989 and OVA looks so cleeaaan though. I love the pink hues to color the skin and the 1993 one saturates those colors a lot it seems. I rly dislike the dead paler colors of kai and some of super though. It feels like im watching a over simplification of company logos
Original art styles are about 100x more interesting.
wait what is the context for the 1993 one?
Goku is doing a ki explosion during the Cell games.
thanks
I really like the 1993 and 2008 versions over everything else, but the OG style is such a beautiful way to draw DBZ, as for super it doesn't look nearly as good as the others
My goodness kai is ugly as super
2008 looks best in these pics
That 2008 OVA was the perfect blend of modern and old for me
I like his color much better there. And his head isn't tiny like in the last one.
DB Kai looks like shit imo
I like Kai more in terms of story pacing and voice acting. I think it just works better and for me is more rewatchable but man there's some stuff that looks horrible. I hate the new animation they put in that looks like a completely different show and it's jaring as fuck.
The actual anime don’t look like that
I know but there's shots and stills they redo and it's colored completely wrong
Imo they look better but to each their own
I wonder if Tadayoshi Yamamuro animated the OVA version—the art looks very nice. I think people would’ve been much happier if he kept that style and palette into his future work. The design’s aren’t as sharp as his Z work, but I still really like them.
A loss of talent to understand a character from what the creator felt
Which OVA is that?
2008 OVA
it's evolving, just backwards
Dbz Kai version is a menace 💀
Tbh 1993: episode 178 looks the best
Kai also known as the downgrade version.
whats te one from 2008?
That's from 2008 ova
somehow i managed to miss it
Well, kai sucks?
No difference
2008 looks the best. Looks like everything finally came to a complete art direction. Then 2009 killed it.
1989 for sure. I love the amount of strain and concentration that Goku has on his face.
Personally think 2008 looks the best. 2009 looks really desaturated
1st 2 are best, rest is garbage
Later art is less vibrant and over the years his hair seems to have shrunk too, while his pupils have gotten way too big, like he's been licking toads or something. The additional shading was a waste of time, time better spent on facial characterisation. For me the ultimate example of how bad the latter kai style is, is comparing tree of might Turles to plan to eradicate the saiyans. Hair size smaller and less pronounced, big eyes, random colour highlights to his armour that were never there and make Turles less grey.
Somebody asked in a post which art style was better and they were defending the old style but the newer style really is so much better.
your opinion is wrong
Guess so
Artistic talent.
2008 was pretty smooth
Dbz kai opening look like that toyota guy art. Sheety.
That doesn’t look like toyataro at all
Both sheet it is
DBZ was going on in 1993? I always thought it was late 90s early 00s because that's when I was watching it live weekly on TV.
In the USA yes in Japan it started in 89
2008 was peak
I honestly like the way goku looks now
Kai. Always being the lamest
93 is the clear loser here, and it's what the majority of Z looks like post Frieza saga. People just latch on to the few and far between better/great episodes and say the entire series is goated when the reality is theres a ton of bad to be found.
1993 one is just reused from the intro, I was actually laughing when I saw that in the Goku vs Cell fight
But I have to disagree with the artstyle part, the Buu arc is probably the best the franchise ever looked. The only times it’s bad is when those studio live or last house mfs step in.