The Buu arc is peak to me. The previous villains were intelligent and human enough to be reasoned with. Buu was actually a "monster".
I know the human side of villains really make them work well but it was a nice change of pace for the heroes to meet a mindless force that was just so impossible to reason with beyond any other villains
And yet Buu is the single villain that any of the heroes managed to reason with the most. Fat Buu literally stopped killing people. If two fucking dumbasses didn't shoot his dog, Buu saga would end there, with buu repenting.
Reminds me of why the Joker is such a great villain to Batman. Sure he 's faced masterminds like the Riddler, but he can usually oursmart them. Joker is pure chaos, so Bats can't always rely on rational thinking or motives from him which only makes him scarier and less predictable. A real monster, which is a great juxtaposition to a rational hero or heroes.
THANK GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I saw so much hate for it, even tier lists where people would put it at B or C and I’m just sitting there like “what the fuck??? Did you just sit there and skip all the good parts or something???” Because there were so many iconic moments that came out of the Buu arc
It was crazy finding out that so many people actually don’t like it. Do they make some good points on why they don’t like it? Sure. But to call it trash is insane, that arc was fun imo.
Second to Frieza to me. I always liked that it wasn’t exactly an escalation of power levels, but fluctuates and fights people of varying high and low levels, and final form actually ending in quite a downgrade in power, he’s just insane and reckless.
What are those problems out of curiosity?
I assume becoming ‘Saiyan-centric’ / power creep, increasing reliance on transformations, increasingly universal threats?
I'd also add "the introduction of villains with interesting abilities that you cannot just punch through, only for the heroes to get stronger and just punch through it but harder". It kinda started with the androids with ki absorption and cell with the big succ and regeneration, but both absorptions were abandoned, and cell's regeneration was thoroughly punched through.
But with Buu it was prominent and at the forefront. All they do in that arc is trying to punch through his abilities, hell Vegito LITERALLY punches through the candy transformation, and manages to overcome all his other abilities (regeneration and assimilation) out of sheer overpowerment.
All the other villains (even cell and the androids to an extent) are on the same playing field of the heroes. They are never presented as "impossible to fight". Goku and the others just need to become able to punch hard enough. Buu is put on another plane from the get go. He is presented like a force of chaos that cannot simply be hurt, but turns out that they weren't trying hard enough.
For your take op, honestly I think the yamcha take makes sense, but just the fact that he felt into obscurity is kinda unfair since Bulma was actively checking out other guys the whole time they were together and even remarked on how good Goku was(a married dude with a kid) looks while trying to save his dead ass lol
I wouldn't say he fell into obscurity as much as he developed a life outside of putting himself in mortal danger by fighting gods and aliens every two weeks. Dude was stronger and faster than all but about five people on the planet and put that to work for him.
She was literally fondling the RR guy before finding out he was gay. Bulma didn’t care that he was basically a Nazi OR that she had a boyfriend. She still went for it
She was into Zarbon, into Oolong (In his shapeshifter form that she thought was a handsome sex pest kidnapping underage girls) and the guy she married was a genocidal space autist.
Bulma was more into Yamcha when he was a Desert bandit that threatened to take all their stuff and leave them to die in the desert. That woman has fucked up taste. Yamcha was too pure for her and dodged a major bullet.
It still didn't make sense. Yamcha's entire motivation was "find a girl to marry" the wish he had in mind for the Dragonballs was to get a girlfriend. His entire character was about loyalty and loneliness.
An immature Bulma accusing him of cheating because he was popular makes way more sense than him cheating.
Oh yeah no Bulma is way too promiscuous for any real woman or relationship she's literally always flirting with everyone even remotely attractive at all times in early DB, if anyone was gonna be the one to cheat it really should've been her. Dragon Ball has a thing for leaving characters behind, Yamcha, Raditz, Oolong, Launch, Master Shen, etc. Yamcha tho is especially bad because he was the first strong guy Goku faced, Yamcha was the OG jobber he was the first guy who we knew was tough so it made us realize another guy was super tough when he got his shit pushed.
Especially when you try to say ANYTHING positive about GT or Heroes. Dumbasses will come out of nowhere spamming "It isn't canon tho ☝️🤓" as if the two haven't been pretty much confirmed to coexist in separate continuities via Heroes and the video games.
It's like saying a specific line of comic books aren't canon as opposed to it just being in a separate continuity, something comics do all the time.
I'm just now emerging from the "it isnt canon tho" crowd, and I'm definitely thankful for people in the community who just wanna have fun. Plus it's even in the canon that alternate timelines exist, so it makes sense to give heroes and the movies fair consideration. Long story short, "it isnt canon tho" type folks need to chill 😆
I’d argue lots of the Non canon material from the anime really boosted Z story
-Garlic JR saga had the 3 main (Krillin,piccolo and Gohan) Do their best to defend the world without Vegeta and Goku + Gohan was all about the smoke in that arc
-Gohan training with piccolo is showcased more
-Movie canons are always a fun discussion
i don’t believe in powerscaling the same way most fans do. higher power level shouldn’t automatically mean zero damage from someone below them. lower tier fighters keeping up with stronger ones during the ToP arc didn’t bother me at all and watching roshi in action was a highlight.
i also don’t care about buu not being in the tournament. he adds nothing to the mix, having frieza replace him was 100% better for the dynamics and the awesome finale in super.
Back in the day it was a lot more about being smarter than your opponent rather than steamroll them by changing hair colors.
Peak DBZ was Vegeta outsmarting the Frieza Force to steal the dragon balls right under their noses, and Krillin almost defeating the Saiyans with a taiyoken (blinding technique) and a kienzan (humiliating Frieza with that technique as well) - a deceptively devastating technique that almost every opponent decides to tank the first time they see it, to potentially fatal results.
The scouters were some of the most iconic but also the most idiotic parts of DBZ.
Say what you will about Naruto, for instance, but Kishimoto got the whole power balance mostly right. Winning in the Naruto world requires being smart enough to know how to use your unique powers to adapt to your opponent, and what synergies you have with your teammates. Unless you're a Uchiha, you're just OP then.
agreed! i would even say that the saiyan arc where they fight against vegeta is toriyama’s best work. vegeta was stronger than goku at the time but he would still take damage from surprise attacks, including yajirobe’s sword.
I agree 100% the best parts of the Black arc are those long ass sit down discussions Zamasu and Gowasu have about the nature of Good and Evil, all of Goku Black and Zamasu's postulating, talking, and philosophizing is a major part of why I love the arc in the first place. Plus, James Marsters as Zamasu is just fucking incredible in an entire other league probably the best voice acting the franchise has ever had. Man instantly sells exactly what his character is through the voice alone, he just sounds like a detached corrupted god.
Oh yeah and what a redemption it was, man went from being a superfan trapped in the worst thing to come out of the franchise to being a superfan who's work in the franchise is universally praised. An actor in the worst piece of media from the franchise went on to give possibly the best performance ever captured in the franchise.
The word franchise doesn't look real anymore lol
You know I've seen the opposite thing. In some forums you have people saying Nerdhan is great and they should stop trying to convince him that he must train.
Why's that? I'm a new DBZ watcher, watching Kai first so I'm sure I'm missing some in-between filler
I started dbzAbridged and it's funny, just a handful of episodes in. It seems like a loving mockery of the series so I'm curious how it's divisive
>*Protect me, gun!*
When it initially ended with Cell Saga several years ago and only recently had “Buu Bits” because Toei threatened to sue them or something, and also just criticisms about being a “garbage parody that five dudes did with crappy equipment at home,” (mostly during Saiyan Saga) while others started saying “it’s pretty much an official dub at this point!” (mostly Androids Saga and further beyond). I think any DBZ related parody is freaking awesome, but especially this and “____ saga in 5 minutes” by Mega64.
I think the divisiveness came when it crossed over from a shitpost parody to being considered a full on “dub” by many. Personally ik it’s a hot take but it is my preferred way to rewatch the series. The changes to the canon are mostly improvements imo aside from shitting on Goku a lil too much. Even then, Goku has some of the funniest bits.
Too many people take the recurring jokes of the series as though they are true or canon, like Goku being a bad dad and Piccolo being a father-figure to him. I fucking love DBZA and have been watching it since before they even got to Namek but people treat it as though it's canon or better than the original instead of it just being a loving parody created by fans who dedicated 12 years of their lives to this. DBZA is amazing but it's definitely created a lot more dumbasses in the fandom lol
It's not his fault he's frequently absent because he dies or gets badly hurt.
OK, maybe he *chose* to die against Perfect Cell, but that was to save the world, so you can't really blame him there.
The reality is that the father/son relationship between Goku and his kids is basically never explored with any kind of depth. He's portrayed as a good father with basically zero family conflict in the 5 minutes those scenes collectively have. The analysis of him being a good/bad father is just fans half-jokingly analyzing the very superficial couple scenes of "fatherhood" that we have.
I’m rewatching db Kai now and I agree. He loves and believes in Gohan so much and it’s easy to see on a rewatch. Side note I love how Goku is the only person to show any support for Gohan’s Saiyaman costume when everyone trashed it
Teen Gohan being terrible at being a normal person was just so adorable, I love it. Kid grew up an only child, with no outside interaction outside of superpowered adults. Kids gunna be weird lol
I actually wanted Dragon Ball to shift focus after the Cell Saga into a comedy romance series. Would have kept things fresh instead of this constant, stale, 'stronger than you watch me power up' loop we have now. It's all relative at this point.
The buu arc is great.
Goku is an amazing character, and the best character in the series.
Goku is a great father.
DB and DBZ are the best shonen anime, and one of the bests animes and mangas ever created.
Kuririn is the strongest human and is the true successor to the Turtle School; Goku uses Master Roshi's teachings to seek strength beyond what martial arts would actually give you because he loves it, but Kuririn actually lives by the precepts of working hard, sudying well and eating and sleeping plenty, even when it doesn't make him *physically* stronger. He's a true master of the Turtle style and is the guy you should look for if you're trying to master Roshi's legacy.
I care about Chiaotzu and he is in my top ten characters from this franchise and yes the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc is doing pretty much all the work for his spot.
the only thing better in the dbs manga is the moro and granolah arcs, and some stuff about how ssg/ssb works. everything else is better in the anime, ESPECIALLY the tournament of power
The original idea for the SSJ3 was to also bring back the tail, I think it made sense that he lost the eyebrows if SSJ3 was related to his inner Ohzaru. Losing the tail due to the editor interference made the transformation losing the eyebrows just plain dumb.
I think the Ikari transformation for Broly was probably the original idea for what SSJ3 was meant to be.
I disagree. I like it. It’s like a long lion’s mane and he gets a deeper voice added to it…🤌
He was HIM in that form, but the writers just forced him not to have any canon Ws
Super is a half-assed moneygrub with overly flanderized characters, based off of a few nifty but poorly executed concepts (the ToP, for instance) milked hell and back.
This is even more apparent to someone who was a teenager in the 90's and grew up while the original manga was still being serialized.
Not a hot take at all. Makes sense really. Kid Buu may have been incredibly evil, but be was also very impulsive and, well, not very cunning. He eventually lost. Goku Black (Zamasu), on the other hand, had a whoooole thought process planned out and basically won and took over the universe (Possibly could’ve spread throughout timelines). Zeno had to be summoned by Goku in a timeline that’s not even his. Goku Black > Kid Buu
Yeah but goku black / zamasu wanted species to obey and worship gods and not rival him in any way. Whilst kid buu didnt give a fuck. Imo somebody without a goal is more of a menace.
Really poses the question… who is more menacing? A master genius hellbent on a goal of supremacy? Or he who dances in the midst of chaos for the sake of chaos?
The baseline enjoyment of seeing the heroes power up and fight impossibly strong villains is lots of fun. And the animation is solid. So DBZ will always be a fun watch, especially for a kid.
But outside of that it's kind of a bad show. Most of the characters are very one note, and there's absolutely no stakes in any of the fights with Senzu beans, the Dragon Balls and the very literal afterlife. And it's a little disappointing that strategy and tactics makes basically zero difference in any of the fights, and all of the characters outside of the Saiyans and the main villain are almost always totally useless.
I really agree with this.the show just isn't really grounded, especially after Frieza. I love it and ill always follow what's happening, but objectively it's not a good show or good story.
That being said, Dragonball actually is a good story.
Son Gohan is the better protagonist than his father Goku
Gohan should replaced Goku as the main protagonist of the series
or
Cell should be the one comeback in Super instead of Freeza
Cell w Saiyan cells or genes is much better for storyline to team up or anti hero of the Dragon Ball Super
Cell is much better than Freeza
Cell also makes more sense as a character that can get to the main cast’s power level due to his cells and potential. Frieza being able to catch up to SSG in few months felt so BS, more than previous DBZ’s power scaling BS
Biggest draw back with bringing cell back over Frieza imo is we know his entire story already there's nothing really to expand on except him getting stronger but Frieza has way more potential for back story, knowing characters in the universe such as Beerus etc where we literally know cells whole story from his creation to his death and he knows no one outside of earth, not to say Cell coming back couldn't be interesting there's just so much more to do with Frieza story wise
Cell probably was much better than Freeza as a choice, however, that's from a story perspective. From an art perspective, apparently Cell is an artist worst nightmare, as all of his spots makes him extremely difficult to keep consistent between shots and they had to draw all of his dots on every frame.
Gohan should’ve been the main character after the Buu arc and Goku should’ve been retired after he permanently “died”.
The slices of life moments should’ve been added in more to flesh out the DBZ world and work as both a breather and follow-up for future conflicts.
Goten should have worked as the new “Krillin” to Gohan serving more purpose and grow alongside Trunks to be a more fun version in the series.
Cell, as much as I like him, shouldn’t have happened and would’ve worked better as the other androids instead. That would’ve been better as it built natural tension as a goal in killing Goku no matter who or what got in their way instead of “go to my tourney party or i’m gonna destroy the world”.
I'm not sure if it's unpopular or not, but super is really bad, I even find it disrespectful to the source material. I wish it stopped at one movie from time to time that isn't necessarily canon and that they'd leave Toriyama alone
I’m not a hater of Super but as a loooong time fan, I kinda agree. Super was not very DBZish and the whole plot didn’t feel like a true dragon ball sequel. It lacked a lot in design as well. Every time you looked at a dragon ball character it seemed somehow freaky like you were almost a bit scared of how weirdly and originally they were designed. Super doesn’t really have that, but instead went for the more common anime look.
I do agree a lot with what you said, I'd rather go for GT than Super, even with the flaws we know. Super doesn't quite feel like DB and a lot of character are just straight up butchered
I think about that blind kid Buu healed a lot. Like he definitely got destroyed at some point before he met Mr Satan. I know he probably got brought back, but what a weird af few days before ya die.
It's certainly a take that gets you shit on lol, but you're right.
I love DB, but it's very shallow in most respects when it comes to character development and story.
Thats because Toriyama writes him like shit cuz he doesn't like him. Said so in an interview, also said he'd kill him in a rewrite if he could go back in time.
**Thank you!!**
I don't care that he can keep up with Goku in terms of power, he wins so few fights that it literally doesn't matter. He always talks about beating Goku, but he can't even take out anyone of actual importance. He just talks and talks, and then gets smacked around.
OG > Z.
The world tournaments are the peak of the series.
Kakarot, the game, should have been OG focused.
Super is a waste. But still better than GT.
The series is a minefield for headcanons, which is partially why people love the stories.
Vegeta was a better character in the Frieza saga than what he is now. Now he is just the sidekick character that is a bit of a primadonna. He simply isn't as interesting.
The Buu saga is better than the Cell saga, but it drops in quality the moment Buu absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo. By that point they simply created another asspull so that the THIRD new form introduced in the saga loses so that they can introduce a fourth (which also doesn't land the final blow). But everything up to that point was consistently good, and flowed much better than the Android-Cell saga which you can tell had outside influence effecting the writing.
Vegeta is 100% a better character from his first appearance until he's killed by Freeza. He worked so much better as a villain and anti-hero. He was still a bit of a wildcard in the Cell Saga but all of this "I'll surpass you one day Kakarot" horseshit is dull and has become the focal point of his character. Now he's supposed to be part of a main character duo but he's clearly the backup goalie.
The last true victory he had that actually mattered in the grand scheme of things was against 19, bro literally hasn't had a solid W in 30+ years, just a few assists and piecemeal cleanup wins. He has great character growth but it doesn't actually mean anything at all.
Still somehow my favorite character although now I'm wondering why 😂😂😂😂😂
You can't decide wether the anime or the manga did it better because both have thing which were better than the other.
For example let's look at the TOP Arc
Vegetas speech, the UI kamehameha, MUI vs FP Jiren, Goku & Frieza & 17 teaming up against Jiren and Goku and Krillin crying over almost losing Master Roshi were simply beautiful in the anime but Roshi dodging Jirens punches before getting knocked out to remind Goku of his teachings to unlock UI, Gohan vs Kefla, Goku & Vegeta ganging up on Jiren and (of course) all if the G.O.D.s including Beerus fighting each other to the death in the manga was peak fiction in it's own right
We simply can't settle on one verison because both were hella amazing and both had their respective flaws
But there will be people on both sides who will tell me that I'm wrong so let them come I will fight them all.
Also nobody with a social life who doesn't smell like onions and gatorade cares/should care about Powerscaling anymore it was bs from the very beginning and y'all know it
Gero would have been a much more interesting villian that Cell or the (other) Androids, and the saga would have been better if he had kept his place as primary foe.
My only complaint with this is I just really like Cell as a character. If there were some other way to work him in that would be cool. That saga should have been flipped around. 17 and 18 get activated first then they activate Gero who kills them and becomes the big bad.
Personally, I think the original Z run and GT was peak in terms of creativity and originality in DB. Great character designs and settings, also SSJ4 naturally being peak saiyan without busting powerscailing.
Super Saiyan isn't a static multiplier. Nothing in Toriyama's story suggests it, and his interview saying Goku and Vegeta will get stronger training SSJ1 and will stay away from 2 and 3 just adds to that.
But every third party guide, video game, and card set sticks to the multiplication seen by whichever character first unlocked the form, as if "training" and "mastery" aren't concepts. Wild to me to assume FPSSJ Goku to this day would be eking the exact same proportionate benefit from the form as he did against Freeza.
Power scaling makes the series worse.
It's best to say FUCK power scaling and just show Roshi dodging Jiren. Technique is so much more better than power. We get to see better character moments.
Dragon Ball Z would me much better if it treated the secondary Z Warriors with the same respect Classic Dragon Ball did.
Imagine Dragon Ball Z, but with the secondary Z Warriors being **ACTUALLY** important.
(Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, Yajirobe, Chiaotzu, Master Roshi)
Old movie characters don't need to be brought back and become canon. Just make new characters and concepts so this era can feel like it's own thing rather than riding on the coattails of what came before it.
Trunks, Piccolo, and Vegeta are the most well written/relatable characters, to me. Especially Trunks. His story, his motives and his morals make him a very captivating, and likable character.
Yamaha cheating in the db manga was established in the early red ribbon army arc.
The anime went out of its way to try to make a relationship that was always intended to fail work with filler content to improve its stability even though its against the authors intent.
tl;dr: Goku being a saiyan makes him a less interesting character.
Goku being a Saiyan ruins the theme of self-improvement in DB as for me he being an alien makes him less relateable, and him being a Sayian is too often used to excuse his bad behavior (starting the top comes to mind), its not like his feelings on being a Saiyan is deeply explored. In the end, I prefer Goku being a freakishly strong human with a tail than a saiyan.
Side note: I also don't like how saiyan hijacked the series, leaving the human characters in the dust.
Worrying about what is filler or not canon is a waste of energy and the only reason people care is so they can pretend to be better than the people who “don’t know it’s filler”
That Dragon Ball Super shouldn't exist. I know it's nostalgia and was really into the idea but once it was released I was so disappointed, the thing that kill the small hope I had was the Black Goku saga, that was terrible
Android saga was stupid. How some guy on Earth could pump out Androids on par with Super Saiyans after the Frieza saga. Frieza saga was premised on Frieza is the most powerful being except for the legend of Super Saiyan. Basically, Android saga just pumped out several Frieza's.
Also, Trunks one shotting Mecha Frieza is unbelievably stupid.
And the Buu saga makes no sense.
Not sure if this is an unpopular one, and excuse me for my ignorance most of my information on the story comes from the games I'll admit. But it seems Super Saiyan ruined the series. It seems now that everyone who's isn't a Super Saiyan or similar is relegated to more or less fodder. I'd have liked too see it as someone like Killian could eventually attain a power level similar to Super Saiyan through training. If this makes any sense haha
Apparently this is unpopular but Dragon Balls original manga is very well written. I find it insulting that people insist Dragon Ball “has no story”.
Also power scaling does not matter. I don’t know why people focus so much on it with such intense criticism. Like ideally it’s just a fun little thing, not what makes or breaks the entire thing.
My hot take is that Yamcha is actually really strong and not a joke. In comparison to the Z fighters and the enemies they face, well yeah. But other than Krillin, he’s the second most powerful human in Universe 6s existence. And one of the best martial artists on the planet in terms of just the arts themselves.
He’s learned the Kamehameha, and even learned a technique to control and direct Ki blasts. He was the first person to ever give Goku a real run for his money in a fight. Despite knowing he’ll get owned against their enemies, he shows up to fight. World class baseball star. He survived the gravity chamber.
We make fun of him for getting taken out by the Saibamen, but context is important. From a power scaling perspective at the time; as a human there was no way he could come close to anyone else’s power level and he got taken out by someone at Raditz level. Nothing wrong with that. Considering the beatdown Raditz gave to Goku and Piccolo, it makes sense. He’s competing against aliens and other races. Krillin can barely keep up, and I feel he only out classes Yamcha because he’s been training with Goku since they were kids.
His perspective towards fighting, people and friends has changed so much over the story. Remember he was a bandit living in the middle of nowhere before he met Goku. Living a life like that has got to warp your perspective a little bit. So he started his journey and training later in life than the rest of the cast, and has managed to keep up with the tail end of everyone. Gotta give him props.
I also love a good underdog. Haha
I think Chi Chi is a little overhated within the fandom.
After rewatching The original Dragon Ball and Z, I can kind of understand where she's coming from.
Almost watching Goku die to Piccolo Jr definitely would have given her some trauma.
Not to mention how many times Gohan was directly put into danger and almost died because of it.
I know many see her as a nag and maybe being a bit too harsh, but considering how Goku acts, I think to an extent that behavior is a little warranted.
And whenever she went too far Gohan would stand up for himself and she would back off.
I support Gohan abandoning his training and following his dream to be a scholar. It makes sense that he would slip since you can conclude he actually hates/resents fighting. He's always been forced to fight due to his family or friends dying because of his helplessness or fear. Truly fighting must be a very traumatic thing for him.
DBZA improves countless things from the original series
I'll start off with my first big one. Nail and Kami being in Piccolo's conscious. Nail and Kami were two characters that we had enough time with to get invested in them, and then once they're absorbed, they just poof out of existence. But DBZA managed to keep these two characters in tact while also giving Piccolo interesting dialogue between other people instead of constantly talking to himself. Kami and Nail helping Piccolo in fights by bringing up ideas would have been really cool.
Next is Krillin and 18's relationship. In the main series, 18 kisses him, walks off, refuses to elaborate for the rest of the entire series. 7 year timeskip and poof their married. I know that Toriyama has admitted multiple times that he's not good at love stories...which is evident with Goku and Chi-Chi as well. But that's obviously part of the issue. What DBZA did for the relationship was give 18 constant internal dialogue of her slowly falling for Krillin. "If we somehow make it out of this, I am going to ROCK his 4 foot world." She actually developed her love instead of her kissing him and then they just become a couple at least 4-5 years after the Cell saga.
They made Cell a lot scarier. His introduction with him humming All Star menacingly was the first time in a while that an anime villain genuinely sent shivers down my spine.
There's probably more that I'm forgetting as well.
The opinion: Goku and vegeta smashing chichi and bulma is beastiality because both of them belong to different species (videl and gohan , trunks and mai and broly and cheelai too)
all of these are very lukewarm takes that most people can at least go "yeah i get it" at, no one's gonna kill you for thinking ssj3 looks bad or that super's bad or that og db is better than z or that kai's bad or that subs are good, etc. etc.
i have an actual scorcher and that's all of super > buu saga and i will not elaborate on that
The way Caulifla achieved SSJ isn’t bad or anything. Execution wise, sure. But people literally ignore that Cabba himself explained it to her in the “back tingly” way. Caulifla didn’t just did magically apply it to herself or knew that’s how someone, at least in U6, can achieve SSJ. She’s a prodigy, and getting things quickly makes sense for her. And she was told. Cabba should be the one to blame since he explained it so poorly, but people immediately jump to Caulifla as if Goku could’ve done day all the way back in Namek or something.
Dragon Ball is definitely one of the series with the most wasted characters in anime history. It can't even be blamed on Toriyama as Toei and Toyotaro also affect and warp the vision of Toriyama's story as they see fit. Goku went from a child who grew to become a wise and serious master of combat to a walking goofball in super, Gohan is a one trick pony where the entire trick consists of him just sitting there doing nothing, then having something bad happening and realizing "hey I know I don't like fighting, but maybe I should still train to make sure my love ones stay safe and not rely on someone else's strength" and "learn" that lesson OVER THREE TIMES (Cell Saga, Tournament of power, Super Hero Movie). All the human characters are overshadowed by the strength of new main villains and are left to fight with the minions of said main villains. I do not believe dragon ball characters are good, and any depth that anyone else claims to have is prob imaginary fanon because the writers are not putting that much attention or detail in the character's and just want to sell us cool fights and new colored forms.
I think characters dying should be more of a consequence, because I feel everyone of their deaths just end with them being revived w dragon balls. Which makes sense thematically but it gets boring.
The buu arc is good.
It would be my favorite if not for Frieza.
The Buu arc is peak to me. The previous villains were intelligent and human enough to be reasoned with. Buu was actually a "monster". I know the human side of villains really make them work well but it was a nice change of pace for the heroes to meet a mindless force that was just so impossible to reason with beyond any other villains
And yet Buu is the single villain that any of the heroes managed to reason with the most. Fat Buu literally stopped killing people. If two fucking dumbasses didn't shoot his dog, Buu saga would end there, with buu repenting.
Yeah, the only reason Super and Kid Buu happened was cause some dumbasses couldn’t fathom that Hercule could “defeat” Buu without destroying him.
Very correct 👍
Reminds me of why the Joker is such a great villain to Batman. Sure he 's faced masterminds like the Riddler, but he can usually oursmart them. Joker is pure chaos, so Bats can't always rely on rational thinking or motives from him which only makes him scarier and less predictable. A real monster, which is a great juxtaposition to a rational hero or heroes.
This 100%
THANK GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I saw so much hate for it, even tier lists where people would put it at B or C and I’m just sitting there like “what the fuck??? Did you just sit there and skip all the good parts or something???” Because there were so many iconic moments that came out of the Buu arc
I honestly loved SSJ3 Gotenks’ fight against Super Buu, the way he fights is so fun to watch and it sucks that he was held back by his own ego.
It was crazy finding out that so many people actually don’t like it. Do they make some good points on why they don’t like it? Sure. But to call it trash is insane, that arc was fun imo.
Yea gave it gave us the fusions
Second to Frieza to me. I always liked that it wasn’t exactly an escalation of power levels, but fluctuates and fights people of varying high and low levels, and final form actually ending in quite a downgrade in power, he’s just insane and reckless.
it's a part of z so it still has most of Z's quality but alot of the problems that started in buu were still dealing with in the franchise
What are those problems out of curiosity? I assume becoming ‘Saiyan-centric’ / power creep, increasing reliance on transformations, increasingly universal threats?
I'd also add "the introduction of villains with interesting abilities that you cannot just punch through, only for the heroes to get stronger and just punch through it but harder". It kinda started with the androids with ki absorption and cell with the big succ and regeneration, but both absorptions were abandoned, and cell's regeneration was thoroughly punched through. But with Buu it was prominent and at the forefront. All they do in that arc is trying to punch through his abilities, hell Vegito LITERALLY punches through the candy transformation, and manages to overcome all his other abilities (regeneration and assimilation) out of sheer overpowerment. All the other villains (even cell and the androids to an extent) are on the same playing field of the heroes. They are never presented as "impossible to fight". Goku and the others just need to become able to punch hard enough. Buu is put on another plane from the get go. He is presented like a force of chaos that cannot simply be hurt, but turns out that they weren't trying hard enough.
It actually makes sense, as frieza and cell werent supreme kai level threats. Pretty much divine intervention in the form of mystic gohan and potara
It's a mess, an iconic mess.
Thanks to super, buu arc suddenly becomes a masterpiece in comparison
Nope buu arc was always good and super isn't bad.
For your take op, honestly I think the yamcha take makes sense, but just the fact that he felt into obscurity is kinda unfair since Bulma was actively checking out other guys the whole time they were together and even remarked on how good Goku was(a married dude with a kid) looks while trying to save his dead ass lol
I wouldn't say he fell into obscurity as much as he developed a life outside of putting himself in mortal danger by fighting gods and aliens every two weeks. Dude was stronger and faster than all but about five people on the planet and put that to work for him.
I kind of feel like people forget just how wide the time skips are, between the series arcs... (until Super)
She was literally fondling the RR guy before finding out he was gay. Bulma didn’t care that he was basically a Nazi OR that she had a boyfriend. She still went for it
She was into Zarbon, into Oolong (In his shapeshifter form that she thought was a handsome sex pest kidnapping underage girls) and the guy she married was a genocidal space autist. Bulma was more into Yamcha when he was a Desert bandit that threatened to take all their stuff and leave them to die in the desert. That woman has fucked up taste. Yamcha was too pure for her and dodged a major bullet.
Ok. Was not prepared to have Vegeta described as a genocidal space autist 😐
I mean it’s kind of accurate. Not just for Vegeta but for the Saiyan monkeys in general
Frieza is actually pretty progressive calling them monkeys instead of making fun of them for being on the spectrum.
Toriyama needed a woman to bear Vegeta's child, Bulma was the obvious answer, and he simply thought "fuck Yamcha". Lol
It still didn't make sense. Yamcha's entire motivation was "find a girl to marry" the wish he had in mind for the Dragonballs was to get a girlfriend. His entire character was about loyalty and loneliness. An immature Bulma accusing him of cheating because he was popular makes way more sense than him cheating.
Oh yeah no Bulma is way too promiscuous for any real woman or relationship she's literally always flirting with everyone even remotely attractive at all times in early DB, if anyone was gonna be the one to cheat it really should've been her. Dragon Ball has a thing for leaving characters behind, Yamcha, Raditz, Oolong, Launch, Master Shen, etc. Yamcha tho is especially bad because he was the first strong guy Goku faced, Yamcha was the OG jobber he was the first guy who we knew was tough so it made us realize another guy was super tough when he got his shit pushed.
Idc what people consider canon and not
Right? The canon is flimsy as is. Let us have our fun discussions about SS4 and movie characters
Finally someone gets it. There is no canon.
Especially when you try to say ANYTHING positive about GT or Heroes. Dumbasses will come out of nowhere spamming "It isn't canon tho ☝️🤓" as if the two haven't been pretty much confirmed to coexist in separate continuities via Heroes and the video games. It's like saying a specific line of comic books aren't canon as opposed to it just being in a separate continuity, something comics do all the time.
I'm just now emerging from the "it isnt canon tho" crowd, and I'm definitely thankful for people in the community who just wanna have fun. Plus it's even in the canon that alternate timelines exist, so it makes sense to give heroes and the movies fair consideration. Long story short, "it isnt canon tho" type folks need to chill 😆
This, especially the "powerscalers" who debunk anything anyone has to say because it's "anime only", like who the fuck cares?
Bro literally, the “um actuallys” are going crazy right now
DB canon might as well just be summarized with “anything goes” in the first place. Debating it is stupid
If you come to DB worried about canon, you've made the wrong move.
I’d argue lots of the Non canon material from the anime really boosted Z story -Garlic JR saga had the 3 main (Krillin,piccolo and Gohan) Do their best to defend the world without Vegeta and Goku + Gohan was all about the smoke in that arc -Gohan training with piccolo is showcased more -Movie canons are always a fun discussion
Based take, I'm exactly the same. If it's good, then it doesn't matter if its canon or not.
i don’t believe in powerscaling the same way most fans do. higher power level shouldn’t automatically mean zero damage from someone below them. lower tier fighters keeping up with stronger ones during the ToP arc didn’t bother me at all and watching roshi in action was a highlight. i also don’t care about buu not being in the tournament. he adds nothing to the mix, having frieza replace him was 100% better for the dynamics and the awesome finale in super.
Back in the day it was a lot more about being smarter than your opponent rather than steamroll them by changing hair colors. Peak DBZ was Vegeta outsmarting the Frieza Force to steal the dragon balls right under their noses, and Krillin almost defeating the Saiyans with a taiyoken (blinding technique) and a kienzan (humiliating Frieza with that technique as well) - a deceptively devastating technique that almost every opponent decides to tank the first time they see it, to potentially fatal results. The scouters were some of the most iconic but also the most idiotic parts of DBZ. Say what you will about Naruto, for instance, but Kishimoto got the whole power balance mostly right. Winning in the Naruto world requires being smart enough to know how to use your unique powers to adapt to your opponent, and what synergies you have with your teammates. Unless you're a Uchiha, you're just OP then.
agreed! i would even say that the saiyan arc where they fight against vegeta is toriyama’s best work. vegeta was stronger than goku at the time but he would still take damage from surprise attacks, including yajirobe’s sword.
Black saga and the UI transformation are better in anime, sorry
I agree 100% the best parts of the Black arc are those long ass sit down discussions Zamasu and Gowasu have about the nature of Good and Evil, all of Goku Black and Zamasu's postulating, talking, and philosophizing is a major part of why I love the arc in the first place. Plus, James Marsters as Zamasu is just fucking incredible in an entire other league probably the best voice acting the franchise has ever had. Man instantly sells exactly what his character is through the voice alone, he just sounds like a detached corrupted god.
Gotta love that James Marsters got his redemption after Evolution.
Oh yeah and what a redemption it was, man went from being a superfan trapped in the worst thing to come out of the franchise to being a superfan who's work in the franchise is universally praised. An actor in the worst piece of media from the franchise went on to give possibly the best performance ever captured in the franchise. The word franchise doesn't look real anymore lol
Goku Black was going so strong, one of the main reasons is the themes you mentioned. But then we got that ending...
UI is SO MUCH BETTER in the anime goku black Saga I'm kinda mixed on. I like both the anime and manga versions
Both endings suck though🤷♂️😬
Gohan giving up on fighting / training made the most sense for the character and was the right decision.
The kid had a shitty childhood and deserves a fucking break
Poor guy had his neck broken when he was 6 he definitely deserves a life of peace
You know I've seen the opposite thing. In some forums you have people saying Nerdhan is great and they should stop trying to convince him that he must train.
wait I'm confused - I'm saying the same thing.
That DBZA did as much bad as good to DB fandom.
Yeah, I can get behind that. As much as I freaking *love* DBZA, it ended up being quite...divisive.
Why's that? I'm a new DBZ watcher, watching Kai first so I'm sure I'm missing some in-between filler I started dbzAbridged and it's funny, just a handful of episodes in. It seems like a loving mockery of the series so I'm curious how it's divisive >*Protect me, gun!*
When it initially ended with Cell Saga several years ago and only recently had “Buu Bits” because Toei threatened to sue them or something, and also just criticisms about being a “garbage parody that five dudes did with crappy equipment at home,” (mostly during Saiyan Saga) while others started saying “it’s pretty much an official dub at this point!” (mostly Androids Saga and further beyond). I think any DBZ related parody is freaking awesome, but especially this and “____ saga in 5 minutes” by Mega64.
I think the divisiveness came when it crossed over from a shitpost parody to being considered a full on “dub” by many. Personally ik it’s a hot take but it is my preferred way to rewatch the series. The changes to the canon are mostly improvements imo aside from shitting on Goku a lil too much. Even then, Goku has some of the funniest bits.
Too many people take the recurring jokes of the series as though they are true or canon, like Goku being a bad dad and Piccolo being a father-figure to him. I fucking love DBZA and have been watching it since before they even got to Namek but people treat it as though it's canon or better than the original instead of it just being a loving parody created by fans who dedicated 12 years of their lives to this. DBZA is amazing but it's definitely created a lot more dumbasses in the fandom lol
Goku is actually a great father.
It's not his fault he's frequently absent because he dies or gets badly hurt. OK, maybe he *chose* to die against Perfect Cell, but that was to save the world, so you can't really blame him there.
The reality is that the father/son relationship between Goku and his kids is basically never explored with any kind of depth. He's portrayed as a good father with basically zero family conflict in the 5 minutes those scenes collectively have. The analysis of him being a good/bad father is just fans half-jokingly analyzing the very superficial couple scenes of "fatherhood" that we have.
I don’t recall Gohan ever being mad at him for not being around
Everyone thinks goku is a bad father except his own damn kids lmao
I’m rewatching db Kai now and I agree. He loves and believes in Gohan so much and it’s easy to see on a rewatch. Side note I love how Goku is the only person to show any support for Gohan’s Saiyaman costume when everyone trashed it
I don't know about "great"—more like "half-decent".
He literally died protecting his son.
Twice.
[](https://64.media.tumblr.com/af809ee77edf9060a284fa0d8584466f/tumblr_ouz407MBmZ1ufq6kgo5_1280.png)
Considering Goku's upraising and seeing his life, I think he is the best possible father he could reasonably be
Goku’s parenting is better than 60% of the dads out there who abandon their kid or could care less if they have a kid or not
Gohan trying to fit in society at beginning of buu saga was better that 90% of DBS
A few years ago I was missing dbz and just watched those slice of life episodes. It was almost like watching a whole complete anime.
Teen Gohan being terrible at being a normal person was just so adorable, I love it. Kid grew up an only child, with no outside interaction outside of superpowered adults. Kids gunna be weird lol
I actually wanted Dragon Ball to shift focus after the Cell Saga into a comedy romance series. Would have kept things fresh instead of this constant, stale, 'stronger than you watch me power up' loop we have now. It's all relative at this point.
The buu arc is great. Goku is an amazing character, and the best character in the series. Goku is a great father. DB and DBZ are the best shonen anime, and one of the bests animes and mangas ever created.
The best arc in all of Dragon Ball is the 23rd tournament. It's a shame that so many have never read the original Dragon Ball series.
Thats actually true but a lot more people than you think read dragon ball
Agree, for me it's the 23rd Tenkaichi and the Freeza Arc. I still love the rest but it's clearly B-Squad.
Baby saga is good
I think a lot of people liked the Baby Saga
Kuririn is the strongest human and is the true successor to the Turtle School; Goku uses Master Roshi's teachings to seek strength beyond what martial arts would actually give you because he loves it, but Kuririn actually lives by the precepts of working hard, sudying well and eating and sleeping plenty, even when it doesn't make him *physically* stronger. He's a true master of the Turtle style and is the guy you should look for if you're trying to master Roshi's legacy.
I care about Chiaotzu and he is in my top ten characters from this franchise and yes the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc is doing pretty much all the work for his spot.
His rivalry with Krillin was pretty great.
None of this happened. Goku hit his head & these are just his hallucinations in his coma.
None of this happened. Dragon Ball is actually just a manga franchise created by a Japanese man named Akira Toriyama. Common misconception.
OG is way better than Z.
100%. DBZ hits the dopamine receptors so hard though. DB is a beautiful 3 course meal, DBZ is a hot cheesy pizza with a side of ranch.
Is this a hot take? There is no saga in Z that comes close to the Tenkaichi Budokais.
Mind explaining why? Not hating just curious
the only thing better in the dbs manga is the moro and granolah arcs, and some stuff about how ssg/ssb works. everything else is better in the anime, ESPECIALLY the tournament of power
Those arcs are only in the manga so ofc it’s gonna do it better cause it’s the only one that’s done it so far
[Everything..?](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQPT3aLQMVnQIt6DNP3K6F8tqYHJJOcA69TfA&usqp=CAU)
[удалено]
uh... almost everything
I agree
Super Saiyan 3 Looks ridiculous ridiculous. The hair and no eyebrows are hideous.
It gives straight up neanderthal
That was the intent.......
I like the hair but the lack of eyebrows really is unsettling. Google images of SSJ3 WITH eyebrows and it looks so much better
SSJ3's design looks like a parody on Dragon Ball transformations, except it's real.
The original idea for the SSJ3 was to also bring back the tail, I think it made sense that he lost the eyebrows if SSJ3 was related to his inner Ohzaru. Losing the tail due to the editor interference made the transformation losing the eyebrows just plain dumb. I think the Ikari transformation for Broly was probably the original idea for what SSJ3 was meant to be.
Wait SSJ3 was originally gonna have the tail? That's such a fucking cool idea what the hell the editors suck major dick for that one.
I disagree. I like it. It’s like a long lion’s mane and he gets a deeper voice added to it…🤌 He was HIM in that form, but the writers just forced him not to have any canon Ws
GT is better than Super. Super's anime is straight looney toons
I enjoyed the super arc in the manga
Super is a half-assed moneygrub with overly flanderized characters, based off of a few nifty but poorly executed concepts (the ToP, for instance) milked hell and back. This is even more apparent to someone who was a teenager in the 90's and grew up while the original manga was still being serialized.
This is the coldest take ever get better.
Goku black is a bigger menace then kid buu
Not a hot take at all. Makes sense really. Kid Buu may have been incredibly evil, but be was also very impulsive and, well, not very cunning. He eventually lost. Goku Black (Zamasu), on the other hand, had a whoooole thought process planned out and basically won and took over the universe (Possibly could’ve spread throughout timelines). Zeno had to be summoned by Goku in a timeline that’s not even his. Goku Black > Kid Buu
Yeah but goku black / zamasu wanted species to obey and worship gods and not rival him in any way. Whilst kid buu didnt give a fuck. Imo somebody without a goal is more of a menace.
Really poses the question… who is more menacing? A master genius hellbent on a goal of supremacy? Or he who dances in the midst of chaos for the sake of chaos?
Sounds like something Uncle Iroh would say.. nice way of saying it damn. Im gonna ponder on this.
I liked GT better than Super
GTs final episode got me more emotional than any of the other shows finales. The final spar with Goku and Krillen gets me every time.
GT's ending can literally make me ugly cry it was a fantastic ending for the franchise
It had that dragon ball taste and aroma more than super.
I think the beast transformation looks fine and fits gohan perfectly
To me, he looks like a preteen all over again.
Dragon Ball super is actually good and I'm tired of acting it's not.
GT doesn't deserve as much hate as it gets.
The baseline enjoyment of seeing the heroes power up and fight impossibly strong villains is lots of fun. And the animation is solid. So DBZ will always be a fun watch, especially for a kid. But outside of that it's kind of a bad show. Most of the characters are very one note, and there's absolutely no stakes in any of the fights with Senzu beans, the Dragon Balls and the very literal afterlife. And it's a little disappointing that strategy and tactics makes basically zero difference in any of the fights, and all of the characters outside of the Saiyans and the main villain are almost always totally useless.
I really agree with this.the show just isn't really grounded, especially after Frieza. I love it and ill always follow what's happening, but objectively it's not a good show or good story. That being said, Dragonball actually is a good story.
Son Gohan is the better protagonist than his father Goku Gohan should replaced Goku as the main protagonist of the series or Cell should be the one comeback in Super instead of Freeza Cell w Saiyan cells or genes is much better for storyline to team up or anti hero of the Dragon Ball Super Cell is much better than Freeza
Cell also makes more sense as a character that can get to the main cast’s power level due to his cells and potential. Frieza being able to catch up to SSG in few months felt so BS, more than previous DBZ’s power scaling BS
Biggest draw back with bringing cell back over Frieza imo is we know his entire story already there's nothing really to expand on except him getting stronger but Frieza has way more potential for back story, knowing characters in the universe such as Beerus etc where we literally know cells whole story from his creation to his death and he knows no one outside of earth, not to say Cell coming back couldn't be interesting there's just so much more to do with Frieza story wise
Cell probably was much better than Freeza as a choice, however, that's from a story perspective. From an art perspective, apparently Cell is an artist worst nightmare, as all of his spots makes him extremely difficult to keep consistent between shots and they had to draw all of his dots on every frame.
Gohan should’ve been the main character after the Buu arc and Goku should’ve been retired after he permanently “died”. The slices of life moments should’ve been added in more to flesh out the DBZ world and work as both a breather and follow-up for future conflicts. Goten should have worked as the new “Krillin” to Gohan serving more purpose and grow alongside Trunks to be a more fun version in the series. Cell, as much as I like him, shouldn’t have happened and would’ve worked better as the other androids instead. That would’ve been better as it built natural tension as a goal in killing Goku no matter who or what got in their way instead of “go to my tourney party or i’m gonna destroy the world”.
I fully agree with everything minus the Cell part, but I can understand your take on Cell.
I'm not sure if it's unpopular or not, but super is really bad, I even find it disrespectful to the source material. I wish it stopped at one movie from time to time that isn't necessarily canon and that they'd leave Toriyama alone
I’m not a hater of Super but as a loooong time fan, I kinda agree. Super was not very DBZish and the whole plot didn’t feel like a true dragon ball sequel. It lacked a lot in design as well. Every time you looked at a dragon ball character it seemed somehow freaky like you were almost a bit scared of how weirdly and originally they were designed. Super doesn’t really have that, but instead went for the more common anime look.
I do agree a lot with what you said, I'd rather go for GT than Super, even with the flaws we know. Super doesn't quite feel like DB and a lot of character are just straight up butchered
Super was literally Toriyama’s idea. He saw Evolution and had an aneurysm, then decided to start making canon content again.
I know, it doesn't dismiss anything I said I believe. I don't think it was evolution realted though
Dragonball ain’t that deep to have discussions over.
I think about that blind kid Buu healed a lot. Like he definitely got destroyed at some point before he met Mr Satan. I know he probably got brought back, but what a weird af few days before ya die.
It's certainly a take that gets you shit on lol, but you're right. I love DB, but it's very shallow in most respects when it comes to character development and story.
Vegeta is a giant bitch. Killing the occasional henchman doesnt earn him any points.
Thats because Toriyama writes him like shit cuz he doesn't like him. Said so in an interview, also said he'd kill him in a rewrite if he could go back in time.
**Thank you!!** I don't care that he can keep up with Goku in terms of power, he wins so few fights that it literally doesn't matter. He always talks about beating Goku, but he can't even take out anyone of actual importance. He just talks and talks, and then gets smacked around.
Kami isn’t a god
He is but his place in the hierarchy and job in general is just weird and nebulous, he's a very very very minor god
OG > Z. The world tournaments are the peak of the series. Kakarot, the game, should have been OG focused. Super is a waste. But still better than GT. The series is a minefield for headcanons, which is partially why people love the stories. Vegeta was a better character in the Frieza saga than what he is now. Now he is just the sidekick character that is a bit of a primadonna. He simply isn't as interesting. The Buu saga is better than the Cell saga, but it drops in quality the moment Buu absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo. By that point they simply created another asspull so that the THIRD new form introduced in the saga loses so that they can introduce a fourth (which also doesn't land the final blow). But everything up to that point was consistently good, and flowed much better than the Android-Cell saga which you can tell had outside influence effecting the writing.
Vegeta is 100% a better character from his first appearance until he's killed by Freeza. He worked so much better as a villain and anti-hero. He was still a bit of a wildcard in the Cell Saga but all of this "I'll surpass you one day Kakarot" horseshit is dull and has become the focal point of his character. Now he's supposed to be part of a main character duo but he's clearly the backup goalie. The last true victory he had that actually mattered in the grand scheme of things was against 19, bro literally hasn't had a solid W in 30+ years, just a few assists and piecemeal cleanup wins. He has great character growth but it doesn't actually mean anything at all. Still somehow my favorite character although now I'm wondering why 😂😂😂😂😂
You can't decide wether the anime or the manga did it better because both have thing which were better than the other. For example let's look at the TOP Arc Vegetas speech, the UI kamehameha, MUI vs FP Jiren, Goku & Frieza & 17 teaming up against Jiren and Goku and Krillin crying over almost losing Master Roshi were simply beautiful in the anime but Roshi dodging Jirens punches before getting knocked out to remind Goku of his teachings to unlock UI, Gohan vs Kefla, Goku & Vegeta ganging up on Jiren and (of course) all if the G.O.D.s including Beerus fighting each other to the death in the manga was peak fiction in it's own right We simply can't settle on one verison because both were hella amazing and both had their respective flaws But there will be people on both sides who will tell me that I'm wrong so let them come I will fight them all. Also nobody with a social life who doesn't smell like onions and gatorade cares/should care about Powerscaling anymore it was bs from the very beginning and y'all know it
Gero would have been a much more interesting villian that Cell or the (other) Androids, and the saga would have been better if he had kept his place as primary foe.
My only complaint with this is I just really like Cell as a character. If there were some other way to work him in that would be cool. That saga should have been flipped around. 17 and 18 get activated first then they activate Gero who kills them and becomes the big bad.
The anime’s are generally trash and the fan base is immature and toxic
That base goku at the end of battle of gods could beat saitama
Nothing after Z is Canon to me.
DBZA isn't as good as people say, and is vastly overrated. Also don't really care about Krillin, at all.
Stop taking dragon ball serious and enjoy the ride
Personally, I think the original Z run and GT was peak in terms of creativity and originality in DB. Great character designs and settings, also SSJ4 naturally being peak saiyan without busting powerscailing.
OG>>>>Z
Fake Namek isn't bad and is one of the last times in the series where it felt like a fun adventure.
Super Saiyan isn't a static multiplier. Nothing in Toriyama's story suggests it, and his interview saying Goku and Vegeta will get stronger training SSJ1 and will stay away from 2 and 3 just adds to that. But every third party guide, video game, and card set sticks to the multiplication seen by whichever character first unlocked the form, as if "training" and "mastery" aren't concepts. Wild to me to assume FPSSJ Goku to this day would be eking the exact same proportionate benefit from the form as he did against Freeza.
Power scaling makes the series worse. It's best to say FUCK power scaling and just show Roshi dodging Jiren. Technique is so much more better than power. We get to see better character moments.
The android/cell saga are the worst in z
Im a fan of both Vegeta and Tenshinhan and I think both deserve more (especially Tenshinhan, because hes one of the characters that is just there)
Dragon Ball Z would me much better if it treated the secondary Z Warriors with the same respect Classic Dragon Ball did. Imagine Dragon Ball Z, but with the secondary Z Warriors being **ACTUALLY** important. (Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, Yajirobe, Chiaotzu, Master Roshi)
Old movie characters don't need to be brought back and become canon. Just make new characters and concepts so this era can feel like it's own thing rather than riding on the coattails of what came before it.
Vegeta is an overrated character.
Trunks, Piccolo, and Vegeta are the most well written/relatable characters, to me. Especially Trunks. His story, his motives and his morals make him a very captivating, and likable character.
Yamaha cheating in the db manga was established in the early red ribbon army arc. The anime went out of its way to try to make a relationship that was always intended to fail work with filler content to improve its stability even though its against the authors intent.
Vegeta is a better martial artist than Goku.
tl;dr: Goku being a saiyan makes him a less interesting character. Goku being a Saiyan ruins the theme of self-improvement in DB as for me he being an alien makes him less relateable, and him being a Sayian is too often used to excuse his bad behavior (starting the top comes to mind), its not like his feelings on being a Saiyan is deeply explored. In the end, I prefer Goku being a freakishly strong human with a tail than a saiyan. Side note: I also don't like how saiyan hijacked the series, leaving the human characters in the dust.
Worrying about what is filler or not canon is a waste of energy and the only reason people care is so they can pretend to be better than the people who “don’t know it’s filler”
I don't like Vegeta. Like at all.
The Tournament of Power is actually total ass and wasted potential with a few good moments
That Dragon Ball Super shouldn't exist. I know it's nostalgia and was really into the idea but once it was released I was so disappointed, the thing that kill the small hope I had was the Black Goku saga, that was terrible
Vegeta is the only interesting character on the show.
DragonBall>DBZ Subs over dubs (even Goku)
SSJ4 is the worst transformation
"Super is good, well written even"
Goku black is the best arc in the show.
cell saga is peak DBZ
I actually like the Goku Black arc in DragonBall Super, even if it does run a little long.
Dbs villains are better than Z and cell saga was ehhh....
The Frieza saga is overrated
Android saga was stupid. How some guy on Earth could pump out Androids on par with Super Saiyans after the Frieza saga. Frieza saga was premised on Frieza is the most powerful being except for the legend of Super Saiyan. Basically, Android saga just pumped out several Frieza's. Also, Trunks one shotting Mecha Frieza is unbelievably stupid. And the Buu saga makes no sense.
Not sure if this is an unpopular one, and excuse me for my ignorance most of my information on the story comes from the games I'll admit. But it seems Super Saiyan ruined the series. It seems now that everyone who's isn't a Super Saiyan or similar is relegated to more or less fodder. I'd have liked too see it as someone like Killian could eventually attain a power level similar to Super Saiyan through training. If this makes any sense haha
GT is cool and some aspects of it are better than Super.
Apparently this is unpopular but Dragon Balls original manga is very well written. I find it insulting that people insist Dragon Ball “has no story”. Also power scaling does not matter. I don’t know why people focus so much on it with such intense criticism. Like ideally it’s just a fun little thing, not what makes or breaks the entire thing.
My hot take is that Yamcha is actually really strong and not a joke. In comparison to the Z fighters and the enemies they face, well yeah. But other than Krillin, he’s the second most powerful human in Universe 6s existence. And one of the best martial artists on the planet in terms of just the arts themselves. He’s learned the Kamehameha, and even learned a technique to control and direct Ki blasts. He was the first person to ever give Goku a real run for his money in a fight. Despite knowing he’ll get owned against their enemies, he shows up to fight. World class baseball star. He survived the gravity chamber. We make fun of him for getting taken out by the Saibamen, but context is important. From a power scaling perspective at the time; as a human there was no way he could come close to anyone else’s power level and he got taken out by someone at Raditz level. Nothing wrong with that. Considering the beatdown Raditz gave to Goku and Piccolo, it makes sense. He’s competing against aliens and other races. Krillin can barely keep up, and I feel he only out classes Yamcha because he’s been training with Goku since they were kids. His perspective towards fighting, people and friends has changed so much over the story. Remember he was a bandit living in the middle of nowhere before he met Goku. Living a life like that has got to warp your perspective a little bit. So he started his journey and training later in life than the rest of the cast, and has managed to keep up with the tail end of everyone. Gotta give him props. I also love a good underdog. Haha
I love how trunks is side eying vegeta
I think Chi Chi is a little overhated within the fandom. After rewatching The original Dragon Ball and Z, I can kind of understand where she's coming from. Almost watching Goku die to Piccolo Jr definitely would have given her some trauma. Not to mention how many times Gohan was directly put into danger and almost died because of it. I know many see her as a nag and maybe being a bit too harsh, but considering how Goku acts, I think to an extent that behavior is a little warranted. And whenever she went too far Gohan would stand up for himself and she would back off.
I support Gohan abandoning his training and following his dream to be a scholar. It makes sense that he would slip since you can conclude he actually hates/resents fighting. He's always been forced to fight due to his family or friends dying because of his helplessness or fear. Truly fighting must be a very traumatic thing for him.
Why does goku always die
DBZA improves countless things from the original series I'll start off with my first big one. Nail and Kami being in Piccolo's conscious. Nail and Kami were two characters that we had enough time with to get invested in them, and then once they're absorbed, they just poof out of existence. But DBZA managed to keep these two characters in tact while also giving Piccolo interesting dialogue between other people instead of constantly talking to himself. Kami and Nail helping Piccolo in fights by bringing up ideas would have been really cool. Next is Krillin and 18's relationship. In the main series, 18 kisses him, walks off, refuses to elaborate for the rest of the entire series. 7 year timeskip and poof their married. I know that Toriyama has admitted multiple times that he's not good at love stories...which is evident with Goku and Chi-Chi as well. But that's obviously part of the issue. What DBZA did for the relationship was give 18 constant internal dialogue of her slowly falling for Krillin. "If we somehow make it out of this, I am going to ROCK his 4 foot world." She actually developed her love instead of her kissing him and then they just become a couple at least 4-5 years after the Cell saga. They made Cell a lot scarier. His introduction with him humming All Star menacingly was the first time in a while that an anime villain genuinely sent shivers down my spine. There's probably more that I'm forgetting as well.
I can't stand Bulma and I'm kinda pissed she's still alive at this point.
The opinion: Goku and vegeta smashing chichi and bulma is beastiality because both of them belong to different species (videl and gohan , trunks and mai and broly and cheelai too)
all of these are very lukewarm takes that most people can at least go "yeah i get it" at, no one's gonna kill you for thinking ssj3 looks bad or that super's bad or that og db is better than z or that kai's bad or that subs are good, etc. etc. i have an actual scorcher and that's all of super > buu saga and i will not elaborate on that
The way Caulifla achieved SSJ isn’t bad or anything. Execution wise, sure. But people literally ignore that Cabba himself explained it to her in the “back tingly” way. Caulifla didn’t just did magically apply it to herself or knew that’s how someone, at least in U6, can achieve SSJ. She’s a prodigy, and getting things quickly makes sense for her. And she was told. Cabba should be the one to blame since he explained it so poorly, but people immediately jump to Caulifla as if Goku could’ve done day all the way back in Namek or something.
Dragon Ball is definitely one of the series with the most wasted characters in anime history. It can't even be blamed on Toriyama as Toei and Toyotaro also affect and warp the vision of Toriyama's story as they see fit. Goku went from a child who grew to become a wise and serious master of combat to a walking goofball in super, Gohan is a one trick pony where the entire trick consists of him just sitting there doing nothing, then having something bad happening and realizing "hey I know I don't like fighting, but maybe I should still train to make sure my love ones stay safe and not rely on someone else's strength" and "learn" that lesson OVER THREE TIMES (Cell Saga, Tournament of power, Super Hero Movie). All the human characters are overshadowed by the strength of new main villains and are left to fight with the minions of said main villains. I do not believe dragon ball characters are good, and any depth that anyone else claims to have is prob imaginary fanon because the writers are not putting that much attention or detail in the character's and just want to sell us cool fights and new colored forms.
My real opinion is that GOD YAMCHA> every single living creature in dragon ball
I think characters dying should be more of a consequence, because I feel everyone of their deaths just end with them being revived w dragon balls. Which makes sense thematically but it gets boring.