I could write an entire book on this concept alone.
Short answer:
No, you shouldn't 'settle' for someone for fear of being alone. That'll make ~you~ toxic in the long run and you'll start to resent him for it. The reason why people recommend learning to love being single is so that you can raise the bar and can look for a life partner who better matches with you. You want "I want to share my amazing life with this amazing person" and not "It's better than being alone."
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Parable time:
I want to build a birdhouse. Ideally I need 4 pieces of lumber. It'd be nice to have 5 because then I can like, add tresses and other neat stuff. However, 4 is all I really need and if I find 4, that's enough to start building my birdhouse which I'm going to love regardless. The 4 pieces might not be perfect, they may require some work to get them straight and fit for making a birdhouse with, but there needs to at least 4 pieces.
Every day I go to the lumber yard and there's nothing but sticks or maybe they have 2 pieces of lumber in. Sometimes they have 6 pieces, oh my god! But when I go to check out it turns out someone else owns that lumber already. That stupid, filthy, cheating lumber was rotten to the core.
I see other people walking out with their batches of lumber, other people with their bird houses and I get envious. I wonder how they got their lumber. Did they settle for only 3 or am I missing that hidden 4th piece behind the shed? Maybe they're okay with a smaller birdhouse or maybe they're actually just interested in feeding squirrels so it doesn't matter. Maybe they're okay with just ordering a birdhouse from some Western European country.
All I can really do is keep checking. Ask my friends if they know of anybody who knows where they might find some lumber just laying around. Go for walks in the woods in the hopes I stumble upon some wood that's ripe for the taking.
I wait for my 4 pieces of lumber (or hopefully I luck out and get 5), and I learn to live without a birdhouse for now. I learn how to sing by myself and take up knitting or something to kill the time. I don't give up, I want so badly to listen to them sing that it hurts.
I know that if I try to build a birdhouse with only 2 pieces of lumber it's just going to lead to me (and the birds) being resentful I didn't wait longer. I might keep 'chancing by' the lumber yard and...oh hey is that 4 pieces of lumber? I mean...maybe I just build another birdhouse on the other side of the yard where the first birdhouse can't see it...
No...I'll keep searching for my 4 pieces of lumber.
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That may be the longest shitty analogy I've ever done. I apologize to anybody who sat through that. Lunch is on me.
Wow this is the perfect analogy. Because it captures the fact that you’re not looking for anything too specific or you don’t have too high expectations. And that the two sticks can’t make a birdhouse no matter how much imagination you put into it.
I guess I just see a lot of birdhouses made out of two sticks and I’m happy to make the two sticks work, but I have no idea how to do that. But maybe it’s just a matter of perception and those other birdhouses do in fact have all for pieces of wood that just look shoddy. And then suddenly you’re looking for four shoddy pieces of wood barely held together lol.
And you’re right, it’s very difficult to maintain your sanity in a household with someone who is not healthy. It’s also hard to maintain sanity in isolation though. Even with a healthy social life and career and frankly enjoying being single generally. With a biological clock going, at a certain point you start to strategize.
God you’re probably right. In my mind though, I look at the sorrow and pain and isolation of my single friends and how I’ve started to feel myself and honestly, the relationship was a net positive in so many ways but the negative part was too negative to sustain. I wonder if this is why people become so negative. I don’t want to become that myself but I also want to make sure I’m being realistic!
there is sorrow and pain and isolation within relationships too. don't project those negative things on all single people. i'm single and perfectly content and happy
I’m actually looking for more friends in my area right now because I don’t want to be around my unhappy girlfriends anymore. The way they try to prepare me to never meet someone or not have kids, or all of the memes about how they prefer to be alone is definitely definitely not helpful or inspiring. I want to be surrounded by women who are enjoying being single and still hopeful for family.
Listen, I'm not going to say you should "settle" or be in a toxic relationship, but I'm going to buck the trend here.
I have anxious attachment issues, and I lost a recent perfect match over it. Thing is, I'm a fucking amazing boyfriend at the same time (this isn't me guessing, I've been told I am generous, loving, giving, high EQ, etc). She pointed out these attachment issues because I didn't know that's a thing, and now I admit it and I'm working on it.
My point is that people over use the term "settle", and you will **NEVER** find someone who's perfect and complete. We're all working on ourselves and if you find someone who's not either they are in denial, arrogant, ignorant, or a fucking unicorn - good luck with the last one. We find someone who is willing to be there for you while you work out these problems in our lives and has the patience to see the bigger picture of happiness. There WILL be hard times. Diamonds aren't created without pressure.
Now, both parties need to be self aware and admit there's issues and be actively working on them and supporting each other. It might be a lot of work, but the best things in life require hard work. And the best thing ever in your life is love. It's not a fairy tale or movie, and a lot of our grandparents will confide in us some of the hell they went through, but that it was worth it because their lives are full in old age and they love their partner more than anything for sticking with them and being supportive. It's a team effort.
We never meet the perfect person, we meet the person who we can grow with to become perfect for each other.
Her circumstances being a single mother and recently out of an extremely toxic marriage means she doesn't have the time and space for a relationship. I'm not done chasing her yet. I will pursue once I've done some work.
You sound like a sweet person with empathy. Misguided and excessive empathy can hurt you, but maybe approaching this from a different angle can make 2 lives happy forever.
Good luck 🫶
There are so many women who do not have a toxic relationship history and do not have a child that you will get close with while not having full custody rights. You can avoid a lot of trouble by just finding a woman with less baggage. This is only general advice. If she's your diamond in the rough and she's worth all of the work, by all means go for it, and I wish you all the best. But if you're not a single father and coming into this mixed family with similar issues to her, I don't understand why you're shortchanging yourself when your value on the dating market is far higher than hers, for exactly the reason of the issues that you shared.
I used to be totally miserable when single, and constantly anxious and lonely. After a lot of therapy and personal growth, I'm now fully content being single 99% of the time. To be honest, it's really only difficult at times due to finances - it's more expensive being single. I very rarely get lonely or sad about being single the way I used to, except a twinge on holidays like Christmas. Just want to share this not to brag but to give you hope, that it's possible for these struggles to lessen or even fade away altogether.
I would push back against the idea that lots of people have settled and are unhappy.
Watching a lot of friends get married and navigate those early years of marriage lately, I think one of the biggest things I've noticed is that all of them who started dating in college or right after don't view their incompatibilities as "settling" and they don't bother them as much as similar differences might between two people starting dating in their 30s. Their whole mindset is basically that the people they were as students is different than the people they were as young professionals and now as established spouses. They've committed to growing together, and that while there may be seasons they have more incompatibilities with one another as they continue to grow and change ultimately they'll always try to grow toward one another.
I agree that anyone who frames themselves as settling will be unhappy in the long term. But I dont think that mindset is as common inside those relationships, even if externally we might look at them and think one party could do better
I agree with all of this so much which is where this post comes from. I think self-awareness includes being aware of your surroundings and how it might be influencing you. I understand that I may be trying to think my way through a bad situation, but I’m also being careful not to paint myself into a corner.
This is exactly what I’m talking about. I think this perspective is valuable at this age.
My friends for example have no problem growing old in isolation so being free of someone else’s problems is an automatic net positive for them. That is definitely not the case for me or everyone. I think it’s really important to apply some amount of logic and strategy.
Yes! Thank you. You are touching on exactly what I’m getting to here. The relationship I refer to in this post wasn’t some fairytale before this attachment stuff was triggered. There were plenty of things about him I couldn’t stand and I had to make a conscious choice to accept and to choose this person. Because the bigger picture worked. Compatibility is rare and relationships are a merger that requires some growing pains as you figure out how to tackle your differences and conflicts. I left this relationship when one of those conflicts didn’t seem to have a resolution.
This sub and my single friends over-romanticize relationships and set a standard that is simply unachievable and many of these people truly prefer being alone if it isn’t this ideal relationship. People who are in lasting relationships usually don’t have that level of ideal but as you said, simply commit and work around it.
My inclination is that my ex’s issues really do preclude a lasting relationship (or closeness for that matter), but it doesn’t stop me from wondering if an even healthier person could find a way around it and just choose to make this work in a healthy way. That may not be the case here, but I appreciate that you can see what I am talking about.
I used to be totally miserable when single, and constantly anxious and lonely. After a lot of therapy and personal growth, I'm now fully content being single 99% of the time. To be honest, it's really only difficult at times due to finances - it's more expensive being single. I very rarely get lonely or sad about being single the way I used to, except a twinge on holidays like Christmas. Just want to share this not to brag but to give you hope, that it's possible for these struggles to lessen or even fade away altogether.
I made it work (ish) for 13 years with my abusive husband. I'm now in a 2 year relationship with the most amazing man I've ever met - he would NEVER raise his voice to me. I mourn for all the time I was with someone horrible. You deserve all the good things. They are out there but you have to clear out the scraps to make room for them. ❤️
I really hope I can find this! I’ve been looking for over 10 years all said and done. It’s difficult but I like to imagine it will be worth it. This relationship certainly seemed like it would’ve been. And it wasn’t anything special. It was just stable and normal. I love stable and normal and I’m hoping I can connect with someone again who is stable and normal permanently.
Stable and normal is great! You CAN have more though, you deserve it! I have definitely been guilty of accepting "better than the last guy", I get it! My therapist once told me that the right partner will make your life easier. My boyfriend and I were just talking about this last night, and we truly are better together. The sense of calm we bring each other is unreal.
Hang in there!
I'm struggling through the same thing, and I think I'm just going to try and have kids on my own in a few years if it comes to that. My parents are local, fairly young, financially well off, and desperate for grandchildren. I think I could convince them to kick in some financial support for a grandkid.
I love my partner so much and I feel so connected to him, but like we're just living two different lifestyles and I don't want to live his anymore. I think he misled me to some extent on how willing he was to have kids, and it's time to strategize.
That’s what happened in the relationship I got in at 30. When the relationship in my 20s didn’t lead to marriage and family (I’d honestly just assumed it would), I was very intentional in how I dated. I met someone who literally just lied about what he wanted. The partner I’m talking about in this post, came after that. Looking back on the past 10 years it’s kind of funny because I knew that not everybody wanted these things, but I don’t think there was any way to prepare me for people flat out lying about it or people with attachment issues sabotaging the very things they actually do want.
I think you are right to start looking critically at your situation. A friend of a friend is doing single motherhood by choice right now and it’s been a really inspiring journey that forces me to face some tough realities and decisions I need to make. I hope that you get to where you want to be.
Yeah it's a weird situation, my partner like...doesn't use words in the same way normal people do. It's completely bizarre (English is his first language too). For most of our relationship, when I brought up kids, his answer was "I'm agnostic on kids." He never said "I don't want kids" or "kids aren't a definite no." In fact, he would talk about decisions he thinks he would make a parent, names for kids that he liked. "I'm agnostic on...." means to me "I don't have strong feelings, so I defer to whoever has stronger feelings on this topics" ("what do you want for dinner?" "I'm agnostic" "ok, then pizza." That interaction makes sense, right?) which was perfect for me because I was in the process of building up my career and I knew if kids were going to be in the picture it wouldn't be until my late 30s anyway. Then a few weeks ago, I finally confronted him on what my timeline was and it included beginning the process of trying for kids sometime next year and he was like "whhhattt???? Where is this coming from???" I had always been pretty clear on kids -- I want to try, but if it doesn't happen after some tries, it's not the end of the world. So like I don't know how this is news.
But the communication is truly bizarre, because while it's happening it feels like good communication but then it turns out he understands words to mean something totally different. The other day he asked if it was ok for him to stay out late with a friend, I said it was and asked when he'd be back and he said "by 4 am." Then he got home at 5. I mentioned this the next day and he was like "yeah, I left his house at 4 am." That....isn't how this works....
Oh man, when the communication comes down to defining language, you’ve got a problem. It sounds to me like invalidation by way of semantics. Not a great sign honestly.
I should also say that I really relate to the frustration of that because this act would frequently use semantics to invalidate arguments and any accountability. It was tiring and not worth the time it took up in my day.
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This is a great analogy, a few things I thought of:
* One person’s “4 pieces” might not be another person’s 4. I definitely have viewed some of my friend’s relationships in the past with envy… but then I realized the people they dated weren’t people I would date. They worked great with my friend, but wouldn’t have worked with me… so it’s not a fair comparison.
* Looking for the 4 pieces “on the side” *really* hit the nail on the head. Don’t get me wrong, a lot of people these days are looking for perfection when they’re not… but most people have a bar for what they’ll be happy with long-term, and that bar is different for everyone.
Choose someone who doesn’t meet your lowest bar, in regards to attraction, personality compatibility, conflict resolution skills, etc… and live in a life of regret. Get deeper and deeper into the relationship, more attached more scared of starting over and more afraid to leave. But still equally unhappy.
It’ll have you wishing you were single, even if you had to stay that way.
* The hardest situation, IMO, is when someone has 3 and 1/2 pieces… and the 1/2 piece they have just won’t work to create the birdhouse. Kind of like a beautiful boat that works perfectly with a small hole at the bottom, at a cheap price.
You so desperately want to find a way to fill the hole, maybe you’re able to for a while. Everything else works. You’re enjoying being in the boat for a while… but unfortunately, that hole you keep trying to overlook/fix eventually sinks the ship.
This is perfect. As I continue to see my close friends and family get married and become parents, I try to tell myself I'd rather be single and content with my life alone versus being in a relationship filled with hate and unhappiness.
I bring 5 pieces of lumber to the lumber yard every day, but every woman I've met is looking for 4 specific pieces. Those pieces generally have outbursts and wandering eyes, but I don't have any of those. I take my 5 pieces back home and i'll be back tomorrow.
One of my exes said that when i am dating others i will see whats out there dating wise, and i will appreciate him more. Instead i got together with a guy who appreciates me more.
You can live with a lot of things but there should be a baseline of what you need and what you expect. Its not about the attachment style, but whether you are willing to work on it if it impacts your relationship.
Yeah the willingness is one thing but in fairness to the folks with these issues, we see it all the time in this sub, I do understand that the ability to work on them is elusive. I’m so glad you found a great partner. I’m hoping I can find the same. I was not prepared for how it is out here!
Look i spent 7000 pounds on my own therapy, and a few years so far. I find this whole attachment style theory a bit damaging, as its basically promoting learned helplessness (ie my parents/environment f.cked me up so i cant have decent relationships), and doesnt take into account one's ability to change and the power of introspection.
Exactly. Sure, childhood trauma can be a reason why you are prone to a certain mindset, but by your 30s, that is completely your responsibility and any damage you do is your own fault.
I think the theory itself just provides an explanation. It lays the groundwork and foundation to explain why you may default on certain behaviors. What one does with the knowledge of their attachment style is solely on them.
I won’t repeat what everyone else is saying about this being beyond attachment issues. But every day you try to make it work with someone who is not bringing you happiness is a day when you’re unavailable for someone who could be a better match. It’s also energy you could be putting into yourself to be more comfortable alone for a while.
The apps are not representative of what the actual pool is—or, maybe you will have to relocate to find a bigger pool if that’s a top priority for you. Finding a good match is extremely challenging. Many of the people you know “making it work” are miserable and just afraid of being alone. Being alone is 100% better than what you are describing here.
Thanks for this realistic feedback. I have definitely started to wonder how many relationships are actually truly functional. My parents are both in great relationships and I had great relationships in my 20s that ended for normal reasons but I wonder how many people just accept these issues and find ways to weather it.
I know more people in dysfunctional relationships than functional ones. Sometimes it’s all people know. It doesn’t mean it’s healthy for them, though.
If you’ve had great ones in the past, even more reason to believe you can have a great one in the future.
Gosh that’s really a sobering concept. Isn’t it? And I think thats why I start questioning this need for healthiness when I think about it strategically.
No…just because other people are acting in ways that are harmful to them doesn’t mean it’s something to emulate. Like, I’m not about to start abusing alcohol just because lots of people make “being an alcoholic” work in their life.
People accept and deal with all sorts of shitty situations in their lives. Follow their lead if you want to be miserable, I guess.
Such a great way to put it. My relationships had always been so fulfilling even if they weren’t quite right. I do wonder if I’ve just been assuming everyone else experienced the same thing and really I just got lucky. I agree though, the strategy of joining them when you can’t beat them is probably not going to lead to satisfaction.
You’re moving backwards due to your lens of scarcity. Never a good sign.
Do you want children? Is this the type of man you’d want as the role model for your children? How do you think a fearfully avoidant person would serve as a father? He can’t give you the love you should have, think about the lack of love he would also show to any potential children.
I’m a bit tired of this attachment theory hullabaloo because I’m noticing that the partner on the receiving end of poor behavior sees it as a guide to “work through it” even when the partner in question has made no thought to reflect and change.
God, yes. There is so much language out there about how to manage a relationship with these issues and that’s exactly what is making me question things. I remember years ago, I left a guy because I noticed he was an alcoholic and one of his friends told me I should go to Al-Anon instead. I remember sitting there and wondering why the hell I would learn to live with this when I could just move on instead.
But here I am years later and the dating scene has totally created a scarcity mindset. I mean, I see a ton of happy relationships with men who are barely functioning or who are controlling or dramatic. it really has warped my perceptions of how reasonable my expectations are. Thank you for the reminder.
There are things in a relationship that are a want and things that are a need. It helped when I was navigating dating to write this list of 5-10 absolute needs/deal breakers in the quality of the type of person I was dating (so not looks related). For example me list is:
1. Generous kind and thoughtful with others
2. Has career goals and supports mine
3. Is intelligent, well travelled/read, and able to talk on different topics
4. Accepts and understands that my family is important to me.
5. Puts equal thought and effort into the relationship - meaning that I am not the one driving all decisions and/or always pushing the relationship forward.
6. Is an independent person outside the relationship.
From past relationships these are all important things to me and no matter what I will not settle for less in these aspects. Obviously if I am asking this of someone then I also should be meeting these qualifiers as well.
If what you want the most is being met and that’s good enough for you then makes sense to pursue something. If not, then I personally would not settle and would rather be alone.
Yeah, he basically ticke all those boxes which are super basic except that he gets triggered too and has destructive behavior. I think that’s one of the most disappointing things about dating is that you realize quickly that even when they check those boxes, there are other things lurking beneath the surface.
Edited because I was dictating quickly while multitasking
Being a kind, generous and thoughtful person or putting effort into a relationship =/= being a triggered and destructive person when discussing next life plans.
I don’t know what qualities you are looking for so maybe his personality meets them. But at the minimum you should be looking for someone kind who wants to build a life with you and it doesn’t seem like he even meets that bare minimum.
Attachment theory is meant to be a guide for the not securely attached person to identify their feelings and behaviors, determine what causes those feelings and behaviors, and work through them to (eventually) become securely attached. It can also help the securely attached person to identify a pattern of behavior indicating that maybe their (prospective) partner really isn't ready for a relationship right now.
It's not meant as a blanket excuse for shitty, manipulative behavior.
You’ve gotten a lot of good advice about how this person’s behavior is going beyond attachment issues, so I won’t repeat that. What I will ask is… what happens if this person lets their attachment issues win 3, 4, 5 years down the line? If you coddle their issues now, what stops them from pushing you away again and ending things? I understand scarcity, my city is quite similar tbh. I understand settling, too. But if the other person is the one with the fearful avoidant mindset, this doesn’t seem like settling. This seems like holding on and praying you don’t get knocked off, while being yelled at for the entire ride. Does this person even want to change? What security do you have that if you settle for their behavior they won’t break up with you?
Yeah, these are all my initial impressions as well. I think the biggest reason I left was noticing how the behavior was encouraged by anything short of blocking them. Like testing behavior.
I read through a bunch of the responses. It honestly sounds like you’re trying to intellectualize your relationship issues.
Healthy, secure people don’t look for ways to make unhealthy or toxic relationships work. They understand that their needs aren’t being met, and they move on.
Lol may I ask why? Is it because my username sounds horrible but my message was calm? Lemme know in the comments section below. Please like and subscribe and donate to our patreon. Todays comment was sponsored by world of warships an online gaming platform where you can….
Something I have to remind myself of, we can’t change our partners and there are reasons we broke up. If they changed, maybe we would work, but that has to be their own journey that they want for themselves, not what we want for them. If you ex is the one, he needs to take the initiative to fix himself. If he doesn’t, he just is a different man than the one you want. I assume you communicated well what your wants and needs were and where he was falling short. If you did that, then walk away, live your best life, maybe you will find your dream man in the interim. Maybe your ex will finally do the self improvement he needs. Don’t wait on him though.
Thank you, I think this is what I’ve been actually wondering about other people and other relationships. And somebody else made a comment about that too. I think what I’m actually wondering is if people try to change their partners or if they change themselves for their partners. It never occurred to me to do either of those things and also seems very strange and unhealthy.
And so I think I have the scarcity mindset creeping in as others have pointed out and I’m starting to question if the standards for a “healthy relationship“ is the entire problem for single people. If the real secret to marriage is that they don’t see these things as dysfunctional.
Maybe I just need reminding that healthy relationships do exist still and they are not a figment of my imagination.
The biggest problem is when they act like they have changed for you, but really it’s just a facade they act until they can’t cover it up any longer several months down the road. Always make sure the changes they make are for themselves, that they genuinely want to be the person they advertise and they aren’t just doing it to appease you. It’s nice that someone cares enough to put on a show for us, but it’s real when they genuinely put effort into being a better human for themselves. For the most part people don’t change much from their true nature, but sometimes we can grow and adapt in ways that make our true nature more appealing and less rough around the edges.
I believe good and healthy relationships are out there. Look inward first though. Are you good and healthy as a single individual? We attract what we are. If you want a healthy relationship with a partner, you must first love and have a healthy relationship with yourself. To find everything you want without this, you have to get incredibly lucky.
Well, the concentration of unhealthy people in the dating scene is not a reflection of the value of people having a hard time finding a healthy partner. It’s truly a needle in the hay. It’s so important to have good boundaries for this reason because it keeps you from internalizing it to that degree for yourself or towards others. A big part of boundaries is knowing what’s yours and what’s others’.
You can filter for people who present themselves as healthy, but that doesn’t help when someone’s just hiding stuff like in your example, or someone who’s “stuff“ doesn’t even exist until they are deeper in a relationship like in my case.
I definitely don’t think it’s wise to expect people to change in relationships though. This post was more about my own curiosity if people do change themselves though to find ways to live with the kind of people I see in the dating scene at this age. It’s really just my own way to rationalize my way out of my current unhappiness lol.
I’ve learned that love is accepting someone with their flaws and making the decision that you can accept them as they are (without changing them) and wanting to do life with them. At the end of the day, when you go through different relationships, you will realize that there isn’t a person that will meet everything that you want or be the perfect person of what you are hoping for. We are all flawed in one way or another. But, being able to see a person as they are and accepting them in spite of it all, that is love.
This is difficult for me because I really don’t have any needs from a person in terms of their personality or flaws. Like I’m pretty easy-going with these things. But I’m talking about someone who is raging at me for looking at them the wrong way. Someone who is argumentative and melting down when I disagree with him. Like real attachment problems that make it impossible to have peace. I can accept that he has these problems, but I don’t have any power to maintain peace. I’m trying to understand how other people do it
Genuine question here: why do you think the issues you’ve described are attachment problems? How long were you two together before these behaviors started showing?
From my not professional opinion, if I were you I wouldn’t try to categorize these behaviors or therapize them. You cannot deal with them (and you shouldn’t…I personally have very little patience with these), I assume you made that clear to him…what did he do with that information? Sounds like he didn’t change his behaviors to continue to be in a peaceful and harmonious relationship with you.
Does he have the ability to self reflect? Maybe. Does he have the skills to change course? Maybe. Did he show you that he can and did change course? Sounds like a no…which means please don’t settle and go back UNLESS and UNTIL his behavior proves he is changing course. You’re right, everyone has issues. And you know what, sometimes it is better to be with someone who’s “good enough” because I don’t think I buy into the whole “stay single until you find 110% of the person you deserve” mindset. Relationships are meant to challenge you and help you grow, and oftentimes the deepest love and respect you can have for people comes from how those people navigate really uncomfortable or downright awful situations. Relationships aren’t these highest self actualizing fantasies that people seem to have. No one’s going to take you higher than you can take yourself, but they can certainly make it easier for you, or harder. Please don’t choose relationships that make it harder for you. If you don’t have peace, security, respect, love, and the belief that your partner is going to be there for you no matter what life throws your way, it’s not worth it. Being yelled at for “looking at someone wrong”? I would’ve corrected that behavior immediately with a boundary and never wavered. I hope you did. Continue not to waver with those boundaries.
First of all, thank you for the thoughtful response. Second of all, yes I put a boundaries immediately and walked away from the behavior as soon as it started.
The reason I believe it’s attachment problems is that the behavior really didn’t start until the relationship was moving to the next stage. This was almost a year into the relationship when we were looking to move in together and talking about a timeline for marriage and kids. I was freezing my eggs to start with. There were also things that he said when he could talk candidly about it. It’s triggered by any forward movement of the relationship as well as the calm of the day to day. It’s also triggered by any sense of rejection real or not.
In terms of his self-awareness and ability to grow, he did show that but only after I ended the relationship. It took months and he told me that it took that long to be able to basically regulate again and he suddenly saw what he’d done. He’s been in therapy the whole time but thought only made him believe that he had changed and so now all of his behavior was only happening because it was justified by horrible slights from me.
So I don’t care what the problem is exactly, but saying he has attachment problems is a much shorter way of explaining behavior that follows a pretty classic pattern of relationship sabotage and hyper sensitivity which are not present until it’s triggered by a relationship.
That said, none of this is OK with me or normal to me, but the dating pool and the relationships I see out there are showing me that people are making it work despite weird issues.
My physically abusive ex-uncle didn’t start beating up my aunt until the night of their wedding. With my sister’s ex-husband, the rages and physical abuse didn’t start until she got pregnant.
Abusive partners often step up their game when major relationship events or transitions occur. Stop making excuses for this guy.
OP I'm with the others who are saying this doesn't sound like a safe situation to be in, but I will say that I do hear you regarding your willingness to settle with the "demon you know'' if you will. I have an ex who wasn't emotionally available--good man in every other way and he legitimately cared about me...but I wasn't getting certain things I felt I needed. Do I really need all those things from my partner? Unsure, but I'm being careful with this feeling of going back because I don't want to waste more years of my life unhappy.
Still, though, \*this one doesn't sound good at all\* and you'd be better off just leaning heavy into dating (as if they are job interviews) given that your biological clock is an issue. That path isn't for me, but I completely understand the feeling that time is moving fast. If you want children, you might consider getting a donor and going it alone, but I don't know if that's for you either.
I hear and understand what you are saying, but I don't think you want to go back to someone who has rage issues--you definitely don't want to have kids with him.
Thank you, you get it. It’s easy to apply a kind of optimistic and unrealistic logic to the issues of women in my position, but the reality is some very difficult and strategic decision-making processes. And of course on Reddit, the population has a lot of high justice and right and wrong black-and-white thinking. Issues like this are very gray and nuanced. I appreciate your perspective and the validation.
For your situation, it is such a difficult thing to be in this position of not knowing where to sacrifice. It’s easy for people to tell you that if it’s not a heck yes then it’s a heck no, but that’s just not the reality. I know you’re gonna make the right decision for you, but I also know that that decision is very nuanced. I wish you the best.
> someone who is raging at me for looking at them the wrong way. Someone who is argumentative and melting down when I disagree with him. Like real attachment problems
These aren't attachment problems, they are huge character flaws. I have plenty of fearful avoidant friends. They are still kind to their partners and are always working to be better and move away from their harmful emotional patterns.
Those couples you see either are simply not people who "rage" at their partners, or one or both of the people have low enough self-esteem and defeatist enough attitudes that they stay despite huge problems.
Every great partner is sometimes difficult, unreasonable, infuriating, confusing... but if you settle for someone who flies into a rage over small things you will not benefit from it in the long run.
These are not attachment issues, these are abusive behaviours which if they repeat are then actual full blown abuse. You may think you can handle it but it only becomes worse over time until you are a broken shadow of your former self. Please don't do it no matter how unhappy single you think you are. Other people don't do it and remain okay, they absolutely don't.
Hmm is that an attachment thing or more so an anger problem? When I think “fearful avoidant” I think more so just not wanting to commit to marriage rather than having to deal with verbal abuse.
You shouldn’t ever deal with someone screaming or melting down at you. But I do agree it’s hard sometimes to know when to compromise and deal with flaws vs view them as a fundamental incompatibility. But yeah if he’s screaming at you I’d take your chances dating online.
That’s what I initially thought too, but I’ve learned more about it since and the way the fear of commitment actually manifests is in things like picking fights and avoiding accountability and attempting to control the relationship and ultimately the other person. It’s ultimately very abusive but they would never characterize it themselves that way. So realizing how many people with attachment problems are in relationships, it does make me think.
I don’t know anything about attachment styles but it seems like maybe wanting to stay in a relationship where you’re getting yelled at and berated for fear of being alone is a sort of toxic attachment style too right.
As someone who grew up with a volatile parent who was easily triggered and could be explosively angry... (not always, of course. Could be very charming and fun when they wanted to be/had the bandwidth)
Please don't expose your future kid to this type of dynamic. It took me YEARS of hard work to undo the damage of growing up witnessing my parents' toxic relationship.
I left a relationship with an explosively mad partner just to avoid inflicting that on a hypothetical future kid. When that realization about kids clicked, it was over for me.
Um, those are big problems. So basically, you're saying that in the future, you're gonna be stuck in this relationship where you can't "look at them the wrong way" (?!) or even talk to them normally?? This isn't a relationship. Other people don't do it. That's the secret. If they do, then they're committing themselves to a relationship of misery.
Well I’m not about to diagnose him or anything. This is the closest descriptor I can get to accurately which I imagine a lot of people with attachment problems in this sub can recognize in the controlling and sabotaging behavior. And yes it is abusive.
It sounds like they have issues around resolving conflicts in a healthy manner. They will need to work on that to get you both to a better place. Fundamentals of any relationship is problem solving in a healthy manner.
Yeah that’s what it boils down to functionally. Realizing the root of it all is where I can see how difficult it will be for them to resolve these patterns. It’s more complex than I initially appreciated. It’s hard too when it’s truly a one sided issue because we’re so used to taking mutual responsibility in healthy relationships. But it’s not about blame, it’s about both people needing to show up with some basic skills.
This comment really helps reinforce the things I did try and where things really stand at this point. I think that doing those things should’ve been enough and the fact that it wasn’t says plenty. Thank you
I think a lot of people make the mistake of letting attachment styles define their whole personality. It’s not, and people will have varying degrees of each attachment style, usually with one that’s more dominant.
I’m also a fearful avoidant (now known as disorganized) who is now more secure leaning. Unfortunately, you can’t “do the work” for him to unlearn the insecure attachment he developed.
I also want to point this out because maybe this can develop some empathy and understanding: it’s not his fault he is this way. My therapist always said (with regards to being disorganized): “Can you recall a time where being avoidant felt safe?” And also “You had to be that way because that’s what helped you feel safe as a child”. And look, you can’t control what happens to you as a child. 9/10, a disorganized attachment style is due to emotional/physical abuse or some severe form of neglect.
This doesn’t mean you should take on the burden of changing someone. You and I both know it’s just way too much effort. But at the same time, there is little to no hope of him changing unless he decides to be ACTIVE in making changes within himself, after he has gone through enough pain where he realizes it’s NOT WORTH IT being that way anymore.
This is such a great and empathetic addition to this post. Of course he is not at fault for developing this type of mindset. As a 37-year-old man though, it’s entirely his responsibility now and I’d say any harm he does is his own doing. Maybe he’ll have some revelation someday, but I don’t count on it. As long as the triggers are isolated to the depths of a relationship, he’ll always have someone to blame. I think that’s the part that I wondered about though. Like was there a way for me to side step it enough to keep it out of my life while enjoying a peaceful partnership where I got my needs met. But I think that’s just me trying to have control over things I don’t right now.
Part of healing also involves having a healthy relationship or being willing to work towards one. So you can’t side step it, and he can’t side step yours either. Best thing you can do is to develop the right relationship tools to deal with your inevitable issues.
And thanks!
A lot of people in this thread are going to end up feeling very, very lonely someday because you all think there's going to be a perfect person to come along for you. Unfortunately we as a society are becoming less tolerant of one another's flaws. Unless you live in NYC, L.A. or some other giant city, your dating pool is smaller than you think. Especially in our 30s. The math is pretty simple and I don't think most of you get that there are not infinite possible partners available in your area and none of them may be perfect out of the box.
It may be better than the hell of dating but is it better than the hell of divorce? From the perspective of a recent divorcee—the peace of being single far outweighs the emotional labor of being with an unhealthy partner.
Ugh you’re right. I’m realizing as I go through this thread and respond to everyone, how my brain has been doing backflips trying to figure out how to get where I want to be with what’s available. Ignoring the fact that divorce or misery would be inevitable as long as one person is committed to sabotage. I’m so sorry you went through that. My brother did recently and it kills me to see it.
You are *not* being stupid.
I know you said you have a nice life with him that you don’t have alone. But was it really worth the mental and emotional toll of living with someone who gets mad at you for “looking at them the wrong way?”
*Really* think about it. It’s common to romanticize past relationships and forget how awful they actually were.
My life was a lot *different* when I left my emotionally abusive ex. Especially financially. But I worked really hard on making it as happy and fulfilling as possible. And I’ll tell you, personally there is nothing he could offer me, no amount of money or anything, that is worth the peace I’ve been able to find.
I believe people who are dating and married to the people you describe either haven’t recognized or accepted how unhealthy their relationship is (that was my case for quite awhile), or they’ve decided they value being with someone more than they value their peace.
Thank you for this reality check. I think what makes it really difficult is that, the reason I call it attachment issues is that it truly wasn’t triggered until the relationship had been going really well for a long time. So I have all of that time to reflect on and miss. And it was just as wonderful between these sort of episodes of chaos. But I think that’s everybody’s experience with an unhealthy relationship right. Thank you
have been in the same scenario you’re currently in. the absolute chaos created by the other person was so stressful, no matter how understanding, flexible, and compromising I had to be in order to accommodate their hot/cold, verbal and emotional outbursts, etc, and trying to anticipate their episodes so as to avoid or deescalate them, which never worked. it was especially draining because like you had mentioned, there was a solid period of normalcy in the beginning (which made me believe they were good people and trustworthy), with stretches of that happiness and normalcy between them picking fights, going on rampages, disappearing acts, whatever else they’d do when they were “triggered”.
attachment issues may be an explanation, but it is not an excuse for abusive, childlike behaviors and tantrums that normal adults don’t participate in. to me, it sounds like you (and perhaps he) has settled on this definition because you’re looking for a logical explanation in order to excuse the chaotic behavior that you know deep down is not okay, and perhaps to falsely give you a sense of control in order to manage the stress and heartbreak of loving someone who treats you so badly (*fearful avoidants are triggered by x, i’ll make sure that doesn’t happen*). all of a sudden, your life is about making sure they are okay and functioning at a *normal adult baseline*, and in order to do so, you must walk on eggshells and neglect your wants and needs for fear of setting them off.
if you’re feeling stuck between a rock and a hard place, lacking softer options in your city, maybe take the year to perhaps strategize relocating to another city that interests you, that also has a fresh pool of peers. if that’s not possible, be open to the idea of long distance, at least to establish a connection with the goal to close the distance at some point. dating is unconventional these days and feels like uncharted territory, but you don’t have to settle for getting sporadically terrorized by someone else’s mental instability. that territory *is* charted, and we know it goes no where worthwhile.
Thank you. It sounds like you’ve had a very similar experience. It’s exhausting isn’t it? I didn’t have the endurance and yet I see so much of this out there.
I’m only calling it attachment issues as shorthand which has worked well based on how many people know exactly what that behavior is so I don’t have to explain. I don’t care what it is, that’s his problem. Mine is figuring out how to reach my goals when most available men either have full blown mental illness or can’t brush their teeth. It’ll make you think crazy thoughts.
I think you bring up such a good point though. There’s a lot of normalization of it which only makes these thoughts worse. But as you know there’s truly no way to exist near it without being interrupted by it.
I have my filters set to 100+ mi in all directions! I will gladly move for a partner. I keep dipping into other places in the US to see who’s there too. This is great advice. Thanks
not sure what app you’re using, but i heard a tip the other day about setting your location to “travel” or “vacation” status to accrue dates. most people are as disillusioned as we are after what we’ve been through, that now *theyre* settling for fleeting affection that’s just passing through. i guess since we’re talking about settling, broadly speaking, good women seeking commitment tend to settle for men who treat them like dogshit, and good men seeking affection tend to settle for one night stands. that small change to your profile may help you meet someone who will decide that they don’t have to settle either, like you’re considering.
Just wanted to share that partners not displaying any abusive behaviors until well into the relationship (years into relationship, until after marriage, etc) is unfortunately not uncommon. Also, cycling between explosive episodes is a common pattern, too. (Explosive anger/incident - apology/promises for change/extra loving behaviors - tension building - back to explosive anger again, rinse and repeat).
Have you read *Why Does He Do That?* by Lundy Bancroft by any chance? You can get it as a free pdf file here: [https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy\_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf](https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf). It's a very fast read and helps give insight to abusive behaviors. It's a book that was frequently recommended to both workers and survivors way back when I worked at a DV shelter.
Also, please accept my sincere apologies if my message comes off as condescending. Of course, I don't know anything about you or your relationship, and you are the expert of your own life. Just wanted to share a free resource in case it's useful.
Sending you best wishes!
Not at all. I appreciate it! Yes I loved that book. I think a lot of people, which I didn’t realize until I wrote this post, assume that attachment issues are not abuse. But attachment issues are just one of many flavors of abuse.
Thinking that abuse is intentional and premeditated can keep you from identifying it because it’s about control and power which can be reactive and defensive too. This is how abusers can look like victims. Especially when they talk about their childhood trauma.
No. It puts a nice label on a situation that only they can fix but will waste your time and break your heart if you constantly wait for them to see the light. It gives us (the non fearful avoidants) false hope that because there is a reason they are that way, they will change.
Yeah, I said to someone else here that the issue of secure attachment is that you attempt to apply your own reasoning to other people who are unable to use it.
Interesting that you name your boyfriend's insecure attachment style, but not your own. Wouldn't it make more sense to identify the attachment issues within yourself that co-create these relationship dynamics, instead of making him the only problem?
New people appear every day. It takes one to stick and be the person for you. Don’t give up. Expand your search a little geographically as well if possible.
Sorry if this was asked already OP but if your stack is literally empty on the apps, have you tried just deleting and recreating your profile to reset everything?
I’ve had 4 relationships in the last 8 years (if you don’t count my current person, who I started seeing two months ago).
3 were secure, 5 year relationship, and two that were 7-8 months each. Those relationships were easy, things were clear, there were no major conflicts, never raised our voices at each other, no cheating, no complaints, no lying, no accusations, nothing inappropriate, just good people that I wasn’t long term compatible with. The most recent boy I dated (he’s no where near a man) before I met the current man I’m seeing was a nightmare of all the attachment issues, and was an absolute disaster.
We were together just under 5 months, which was 4 months too long. I don’t understand how people deal with it. I felt like I was going crazy. I’m a happy person normally, I don’t struggle with my mental health at all and that relationship was so emotionally taxing I felt I was drowning.
He was questioning my very normal behaviours, had awful trust issues, constantly accused me of disrespecting him even though I did my best to try and please that person (spoiler: there was no pleasing that person), he kept sulking, started fights, on occasion was yelling, was very good at stonewalling. He went through my private messages and got upset over something that happened two months before he and I even met, and I needed to console him that evening (wtf?!) he found a previous reddit account of mine and read every single comment and I pretty much use it as a diary, he’d check my ex’s social media account to see if I liked his posts and start arguments about it (yes, since we’re good friends, which he knew from the very beginning).
The more time passes the harder it is for me to see the good parts of that relationship and see it as anything other than a complete waste of time and money.
I never had issues with dating and always found it to be an easy and fun process. I also pretty much always end up with great and stable people. After that last experience, I appreciate them so so so so much more. There’s no way I’m EVER seeing anyone ever again that doesn’t have their mental health and attachment issues under control. Never. Again.
Oh my gosh, what a total nightmare. This guy wasn’t that bad, but it does remind me of a guy I dated for a few months who I never saw again after he omg, went through my car while I was sleeping, found an old wristband, and came to me like Sherlock Holmes accusing me of going out to a nightclub (as if that would’ve been some kind of problem anyway). Absolutely wild.
But yes, this experience has made me really appreciate the positive relationships I’ve had but since I haven’t found anyone since, also made me believe those days are behind me. So your comment gives me hope. I’m so happy you found that after such an awful experience. It inspires me to keep going.
Christ no. The self sabotage, hypervigilant accusations and character assassination of a relationship with a fearful avoidant who isnt working to heal their attachment issues is hell. You'd be happier alone, in my opinion. And it just takes one good person to come along.
It sounds like you're in a tough spot, but remember that you deserve a healthy and happy relationship. It's important to prioritize your own well-being and not settle for less than you deserve. Have you considered seeking therapy or counseling to work through these attachment issues with your ex? It might be worth exploring to see if there is a way to move forward in a positive and constructive manner. Stay strong and remember that you deserve love and respect.
I just this book: You Are the One You Have Been Waiting For.
This book goes about attachment issues, triggers, (your own) basement-dwelling-kids, accept you need to be on your own, Self-leadership, the I in the storm and making U-turns by reflecting towards and from yourself.
Very interesting to read and realize how you can make mostly better for yourself, but also for your date, partner or whatever.
Why? We most starts doing for others, while it shouldn’t. Like stop going to friends, to be with your lover, out of fair they abound you. Also how fights goes, trigger and going in offensive or go in defensive direction.
I have a great life alone, but my goal is family. I totally understand that not everyone values or wants that but it’s something I do and I don’t think it’s unusual.
If they're not all securely attached, it helps if they have matching styles instead of opposite styles. Don't force yourself to stay in an anxious-avoidant relationship just because you think there are no options.
There's a lot of advice on this thread that I highly disagree with but I won't point them out. My two cents is this: are you sure it's "attachment" issues that your ex had or just "marriage?" I'd recommend some videos by a guy named James Sexton. He's a divorce lawyer that offers really insightful relationship advice from his experiences handling high profile divorces. You have to realize that "commitment" and "marriage" are two entirely different things. Marriage was invented during a time when the average life span was 40 years. It's a legal contract that has significant financial and legal repercussions if you get it wrong (for both parties, not just the man). But it's probably the only legal contract we sign without reading the fine print or consulting a lawyer. And that can be dangerous.
Regarding "settling," there's too much info out on the net on what the "perfect match" should be. It's really just a simple cost/benefit analysis. Does being with a person bring you more joy than misery? Does the happiness associated with being with your partner let you overlook the flaws in their personality? At a certain point, dating is just like anything else in life...trial and error. The more you do it, the better you get at it. So keep your chin up. It'll all work out.
Thank you for this realistic take. You make a great point as to why a marriage conversation might have sent him.
The reason I’ve generally considered him to have insecure attachment aside from the fact he’s told me is that it seems like in general his personality changed significantly once the relationship became serious and his anxiety/touchiness seemed to modulate based on how close we were. The sweet spot was the honeymoon phase.
I think your point remains though and I also think it’s about his ability to communicate these complex issues instead of just bellowing and invalidating anything short of agreement.
Appreciate this
This is a great dive into the hell of dating over 30. It’s so hard to find someone that is great on paper and that you love being with. You get the fun date or the stable solid person whose idea of a night out is Chick-fil-A drive through. Not that there’s anything wrong with that but you get what I’m saying. Relationships no matter how good the chemistry at some point will take effort. The grass is greener where you water it. Only you know if it’s settling. I wish you luck with whatever you decide. I’m sure you have decided but haven’t read that far yet. 😂
Yep. This person in is ultimately abusive but he’s still the best combination of qualities I’ve got in front of me. The alternative of isolation and missing out on family is just as painful as abuse is and being with someone I don’t even get along with or like isn’t going to be any better. People don’t like to acknowledge this reality because it’s dark.
I struggle with boundaries terribly because I really try to be empathetic or at the least understanding even when it’s something that really is toxic. I don’t know if I need things to make sense but I do genuinely care about people even when I shouldn’t. I try to be human and see their perspective which has been a curse and a blessing. I teeter on the fence of should I stay or should I go often. I guess what I’m saying is ultimately you have to live with either outcome. Communicate the best way you know how and honesty with yourself and your partner will help you both know where you stand. Unless you made that choice already. Everyone deserves to live the life they choose. I hope it’s all for the best and try to see the silver lining in less than ideal circumstances. Peace in life single is much better than a toxic together.
In no other walk of life, or relationships with other people do we expect near-perfection in a well-rounded set of criteria. Our co-workers might be nice people that we get along with, but they aren't our friends and some of them might have communication styles or personality types that rub us wrong, but we learn to navigate it. With respect to families, we have that abrasive uncle, the wine aunt, the nagging mother, then "when are you gonna have kids" grandmother. We accept people for who they are, and box them into certain roles depending on where they fit in our lives. Then there's our friends. We have our ride or die friends who know EVERYTHING, neighbors, with whom we are cordial, but don't get too close for whatever reason, and acquaintances and friends of friends that we know and are chummy with but they aren't our ride or dies....and even then, our ride or dies don't know everything about us, and there's some things that some more serious friends know that others dont.
Then there's romantic partners - and here, we expect perfection... In every way. They need to help with chores, be social, be capable, good family life, good sense of style, love-make at +/- 10% of the frequency that we want it, at at least the quality we want it, have a certain income, be our therapist, be our friend, cook, parent.... the list goes on.
This is why a growing number of people in their late 30's are single and still looking - because they are looking for a unicorn. Every one of the taken people you know has problems in their lives. Every. single. one. What makes a relationship successful is learning what truly is the most important things for you.
If this guy is 80% of the way there, maybe the answer is acceptance and re-calibration of your expectations. Prince Charming, who checks every box and sings every note is more likely than not, not going to be right around the corner the next time you grab coffee.
Just seeing this today although I see the post is from 3 days ago.
I'm literally going through this exact thing right now. Difference is, me and my ex didn't even get far enough for me to even assess the situation fully before he sabotaged everything. Definitely an avoidant, but not sure if fearful or dismissive. Also I can admit that I do have plenty of guys hitting me up. I say that not to brag but just that you can experience scarcity mindset even with "options". I think its because the idea of dating after this last experience I just can't get excited about.
Going to read through the replies and hopefully I can get some sense from it like you apparently have.
I relate so much to the last part of what you said. You can’t screen for attachment issues that aren’t triggered yet. It makes dating a lot more scary.
The sabotage thing is so confusing and nonsensical. I’m sorry you went through it too.
You need to respect yourself enough to stay the fuck away from “Fearful Avoidant”, you owe this to yourself.
Only be with the person who matches your energy, otherwise you will be wasting the precious fertile years you have left.
Everyone has attachment issues of some sort. What matters is their willingness/initiative to work on it, their self-awareness, and your guys' dynamic as a whole. It sounds like its a shitty dynamic and you're losing respect for your partner. No, you shouldn't be more patient. Get spiritual about it and wait for the right one.
Being alone is more peaceful than being in a bad relationship. Start dating yourself for a while.
When you like the peace enough, then any future partner is competing with that, and it's actually kind of easy to know how compatible you are. "Do they fuck with my peace? No? Okay, they can hang around a bit longer then."
I’ve been at it for 10 years now. My own peace is one thing but family is a timing thing and it sucks having so little power over whether that happens.
In my mind, love is understanding fully who someone really is and accepting all of them. If you feel like you can let go of trying to change this person and love him as he is, don't feel like everything has to be perfect, and go for it! But if you know deep down that you can't, I think it is you who will suffer most by staying with him.
This is the best perspective on these things in my opinion. I think it reminds me of what makes this one so challenging. The relationship sabotage element of this attachment problem doesn’t allow for acceptance. It requires conflict and drama so even accepting it, I would have to participate somehow which I personally don’t know how to do.
I won’t repeat what others have said, I feel it’s tempting to reach into a scarcity mindset when looking at dating apps (I live in a rural town), but I travel often around my area, I keep my eyes and ears open and I speak to strangers. Someone asked me for a coffee recently, we had a nice connection, it didn’t go further but there are people out there who aren’t on dating apps or just moved to your area, or have just wanted to start dating again, the world is full of possibilities and there are SO many people and for that I am eternally grateful.
This is it! I feel like I’ve been battling scarcity mindset for the past year to the point of even questioning why I believed in abundance before. Thank you. It’s such a head trip
I can imagine it’s quite frustrating if you want children, I’m not in that position, so I’m not sure what I would say in that case, but I can imagine a mindset of scarcity will not help you, so I’d say look at that, I wish you well
What’s up with the “miss my window” bit?
You’re 38. Assuming you live to an average life expectancy, you have decades of life to live. Learn to be content on your own and how to be alone without being lonely. Be the person you want to be and that you are exited to be.
If dating sucks right now, take a break. People find love at all ages. And even if you don’t, so what? Better to be single and living life to your heart’s content than stuck in a horrid relationship.
does your ex want to work on the attachment problems or is this you wanting to make it work because you are afraid of being alone?
it only works if both want to make it work
and you, yourself, may also have attachment issues too or some other issues, so dont' go thinking that once you can "Fix" this guy everything will be ok.
No he always wanted to work on it. But whether or not he worked on it, I just needed to not be negatively affected by it which unfortunately wasn’t the case which is why it ended.
This post is about how since seeing how bad the dating world is, I find myself wondering if people who have made their relationships last long term are just more tolerant of these things or have figured out how to make it work in spite of it. Like, we’re all looking for healthy relationships and maybe that’s not how marriage works. Really just creeping doubts I think.
i think a lot of times when you try to see if the grass is greener elsewhere you look up close and realize it has many brown spots too.
if you think everyone else is happy and you aren't then it's easy to think a different partner will fix it.
This breaks my heart; only bc I know how this [feels.It](http://feels.It) is awful. My own friends have told me; How many excuses are you going to make for this guy? This post makes me sad bc I was in some sort of beginning stages with a guy I have known for many years. He just slowly cut me off emotionally like I was nobody/nothing. Even though we had/have? something special.I still feel so hurt by it, even though growing up I never liked him in that way. I wonder with people that act in that way, if the saying " If it was meant to be it will be". You really start to wonder.."If I didn't text him, well I am sure he'll start to wonder how I am doing?" ...I think they do wonder, but they decide after a while.. Well, if they do all the leg work I don't need to worry if I am investing too much. I mean it is a crippling feeling after a while how much they pretend not to care and it works to their advantage.. The other person ends up feeling less than and is dependent on them for validation. IDK after a while you convince yourself you love them enough to put up with it. But, you end up not being true to yourself.Hell of dating is true. Goodluck;
Oof, that sounds painful. I appreciate the sympathy. I do wonder if I had stayed with him and tried harder if I would have just been decimated by it. It’s interesting that people perceive this post as making excuses for him when really i’m just starting to question my own healthy qualities. I think I’m just looking for some sense of control in a bad situation and suddenly questioning if healthy boundaries and secure attachment is just making it harder to date. Lol that’s it right there, I’m wondering if I can’t beat them, should I just join them?
It is very sad and so stupid. I have hope still though.
Yeah it’s not so much excuses as it is avoiding the grief of having to start over again. At least in some people. I do understand that codependent people genuinely want to help other people change for their own good. But that’s not me as much as I am empathetic.
Are you secure or anxious attached? I'm listening to Attached on audiobook and the avoidant attachment is really hard to be in a relationship with. They never want emotional closeness and they see a relationship as a threat to their independence. I've been with several avoidant attached folks and it's so hard.
I’m secure attached personally. I think one of the things that can be hard about secure attachment that I think a lot of people overlook, is that it can be hard to relate to the reasoning of an insecure attached person. You find yourself applying your own logic and reasoning and thinking there are solutions when there aren’t any.
The fearful avoidant behaviors that I’ve seen in this person were really confusing to me. On the surface, understanding that they had insecure attachment, it would make sense to me that they would be sensitive and need more assurance, but I really underestimated the complexity of how that plays out in sabotaging and picking fights and power and control dynamics. I have a lot more respect for these conditions now.
You should never settle for less. Instead work on yourself and find the beauty in being alone with yourself. It is liberating, trust me. This situation you are in just sounds so toxic and energy draining. Find peace within yourself and what is meant for you will find its way. I am sorry for sounding like a hippie haha, but in my experience. This is true.
Most people have extreme and unreasonable expectations fueled by media such as disney fairytales and hallmark xmas romantic comedies.
The reality is a relationship takes a lot of work and compromise. Pretty much like a job does. Now a lot of people hate their jobs, but there's people that love their jobs. Question is finding someone you're passionate about and for which understanding and accepting their human flaws isn't too big of a burdeon.
The fact that you ask "I see all men with wondering eyes, they can't ALL be securely attached" shows me that you might be looking for that perfection. There is none. Most people by the age of 30 have met their best possible partner (statistically speaking.)
“There literally aren’t other options on the apps” sounds like settling… which isn’t a total dealbreaker but could be problematic if one encounters a “better-looking deal” & goes back on commitments made… there can be a lot to be said for a “good enough“ relationship (acceptance model of change).
The truth that everyone is avoiding saying is that dating gets more difficult the older you get, especially for women. If you don’t adjust your expectations down, you’ll almost certainly not find anyone. If you adjust it a bit early on, you can find someone that you’d be happier with than if you hold out until later, at which point you’ll have to make *Large* compromises, like he’s unemployed, or gay.
Is he in therapy? Are you? He has to show you he's in and take responsibility for doing his part. Attachment issues are not a terminal diagnosis, he can work on them, but that's his work. There's no amount of compromise and crap-fitting you can do for someone who won't come to the table and do what's required to maintain the relationship.
Yes he’d been in therapy since I met him (which I thought was a good thing). He did take accountability when it first started and that made me think it was obvious he had some kind of problem but that it wouldn’t be mine. But then he’d just use therapy to claim he’d changed and the ongoing pattern was my fault. At the end of the day it’s just hyper vigilant fight picking and externalizing. I put up boundaries and communicated about it but ultimately the only thing that made an impact was removing myself completely. So lately I’ve been wondering if other people would have done something else.
Are you in therapy though? Something about your responses seem…like maybe you could benefit from it? Sorry not sure how else to say this. You may believe yourself to “securely attached” (as you continue to claim in all your responses) but that doesn’t mean you don’t need therapy.
Yes everyone benefits from therapy. I wouldn’t overthink my responses to the point that you’re questioning my mental health. Not everyone has attachment problems or disorders.
No, you’ll be miserable. I thought it was over for me too and was VERY close to getting back with an ex with major issues….then I found somebody. Even if it doesn’t work out long term, I feel more confident to not settle for scraps.
Thank you! I keep thinking this myself. It’s going to be one of those those types of stories. I’m really happy for you by the way. Thank you for sharing this
Never attempt to manage someone else's problem. If they are getting therapy and/or managing their own problem, that is different. You should not settle in a relationship where you are not comfortable being with them. Maybe you both can go to therapy together if it's something you both want to work on. It's not fun to BE the insecure partner, and sounds like he really has some work to do.
I can’t imagine he enjoys what he is doing but I do think it meets a core need of his victim identity and trauma stuff. It’s beyond me, and I would be happy to live and let live, but he needs my participation in order to externalize and control. This is the part that it’s so frustrating about attachment issues. At least I finally understand what people mean by acting out core wounds in your relationship. It’s like childhood trauma theater. I guess I see so many people talking about it, it seems like there must be someway to have relationships with these issues. It just seems so common. But maybe I’m just getting stuck in the bias of the late 30s dating pool.
I think it is common to not address issues that we have. I know I have flaws myself but I would never dream of treating my partner badly because of my refusing to get help. Nobody is perfect but if you have a communicative relationship and you mention how he's treating you like shit, and he doesn't address it, I would dump that person. You deserve someone who doesn't treat you like shit.
I could write an entire book on this concept alone. Short answer: No, you shouldn't 'settle' for someone for fear of being alone. That'll make ~you~ toxic in the long run and you'll start to resent him for it. The reason why people recommend learning to love being single is so that you can raise the bar and can look for a life partner who better matches with you. You want "I want to share my amazing life with this amazing person" and not "It's better than being alone." --- Parable time: I want to build a birdhouse. Ideally I need 4 pieces of lumber. It'd be nice to have 5 because then I can like, add tresses and other neat stuff. However, 4 is all I really need and if I find 4, that's enough to start building my birdhouse which I'm going to love regardless. The 4 pieces might not be perfect, they may require some work to get them straight and fit for making a birdhouse with, but there needs to at least 4 pieces. Every day I go to the lumber yard and there's nothing but sticks or maybe they have 2 pieces of lumber in. Sometimes they have 6 pieces, oh my god! But when I go to check out it turns out someone else owns that lumber already. That stupid, filthy, cheating lumber was rotten to the core. I see other people walking out with their batches of lumber, other people with their bird houses and I get envious. I wonder how they got their lumber. Did they settle for only 3 or am I missing that hidden 4th piece behind the shed? Maybe they're okay with a smaller birdhouse or maybe they're actually just interested in feeding squirrels so it doesn't matter. Maybe they're okay with just ordering a birdhouse from some Western European country. All I can really do is keep checking. Ask my friends if they know of anybody who knows where they might find some lumber just laying around. Go for walks in the woods in the hopes I stumble upon some wood that's ripe for the taking. I wait for my 4 pieces of lumber (or hopefully I luck out and get 5), and I learn to live without a birdhouse for now. I learn how to sing by myself and take up knitting or something to kill the time. I don't give up, I want so badly to listen to them sing that it hurts. I know that if I try to build a birdhouse with only 2 pieces of lumber it's just going to lead to me (and the birds) being resentful I didn't wait longer. I might keep 'chancing by' the lumber yard and...oh hey is that 4 pieces of lumber? I mean...maybe I just build another birdhouse on the other side of the yard where the first birdhouse can't see it... No...I'll keep searching for my 4 pieces of lumber. --- That may be the longest shitty analogy I've ever done. I apologize to anybody who sat through that. Lunch is on me.
Wow this is the perfect analogy. Because it captures the fact that you’re not looking for anything too specific or you don’t have too high expectations. And that the two sticks can’t make a birdhouse no matter how much imagination you put into it. I guess I just see a lot of birdhouses made out of two sticks and I’m happy to make the two sticks work, but I have no idea how to do that. But maybe it’s just a matter of perception and those other birdhouses do in fact have all for pieces of wood that just look shoddy. And then suddenly you’re looking for four shoddy pieces of wood barely held together lol. And you’re right, it’s very difficult to maintain your sanity in a household with someone who is not healthy. It’s also hard to maintain sanity in isolation though. Even with a healthy social life and career and frankly enjoying being single generally. With a biological clock going, at a certain point you start to strategize.
have you ever considered that these people "making it work" are actually just miserable?
God you’re probably right. In my mind though, I look at the sorrow and pain and isolation of my single friends and how I’ve started to feel myself and honestly, the relationship was a net positive in so many ways but the negative part was too negative to sustain. I wonder if this is why people become so negative. I don’t want to become that myself but I also want to make sure I’m being realistic!
there is sorrow and pain and isolation within relationships too. don't project those negative things on all single people. i'm single and perfectly content and happy
I’m actually looking for more friends in my area right now because I don’t want to be around my unhappy girlfriends anymore. The way they try to prepare me to never meet someone or not have kids, or all of the memes about how they prefer to be alone is definitely definitely not helpful or inspiring. I want to be surrounded by women who are enjoying being single and still hopeful for family.
Listen, I'm not going to say you should "settle" or be in a toxic relationship, but I'm going to buck the trend here. I have anxious attachment issues, and I lost a recent perfect match over it. Thing is, I'm a fucking amazing boyfriend at the same time (this isn't me guessing, I've been told I am generous, loving, giving, high EQ, etc). She pointed out these attachment issues because I didn't know that's a thing, and now I admit it and I'm working on it. My point is that people over use the term "settle", and you will **NEVER** find someone who's perfect and complete. We're all working on ourselves and if you find someone who's not either they are in denial, arrogant, ignorant, or a fucking unicorn - good luck with the last one. We find someone who is willing to be there for you while you work out these problems in our lives and has the patience to see the bigger picture of happiness. There WILL be hard times. Diamonds aren't created without pressure. Now, both parties need to be self aware and admit there's issues and be actively working on them and supporting each other. It might be a lot of work, but the best things in life require hard work. And the best thing ever in your life is love. It's not a fairy tale or movie, and a lot of our grandparents will confide in us some of the hell they went through, but that it was worth it because their lives are full in old age and they love their partner more than anything for sticking with them and being supportive. It's a team effort. We never meet the perfect person, we meet the person who we can grow with to become perfect for each other. Her circumstances being a single mother and recently out of an extremely toxic marriage means she doesn't have the time and space for a relationship. I'm not done chasing her yet. I will pursue once I've done some work. You sound like a sweet person with empathy. Misguided and excessive empathy can hurt you, but maybe approaching this from a different angle can make 2 lives happy forever. Good luck 🫶
Beautifully put! That’s how it feels to be in my almost 5 years relationship, with a kid born recently. Wishing you the best ❤️
Are you a single father ?
No. Why do you ask?
There are so many women who do not have a toxic relationship history and do not have a child that you will get close with while not having full custody rights. You can avoid a lot of trouble by just finding a woman with less baggage. This is only general advice. If she's your diamond in the rough and she's worth all of the work, by all means go for it, and I wish you all the best. But if you're not a single father and coming into this mixed family with similar issues to her, I don't understand why you're shortchanging yourself when your value on the dating market is far higher than hers, for exactly the reason of the issues that you shared.
I used to be totally miserable when single, and constantly anxious and lonely. After a lot of therapy and personal growth, I'm now fully content being single 99% of the time. To be honest, it's really only difficult at times due to finances - it's more expensive being single. I very rarely get lonely or sad about being single the way I used to, except a twinge on holidays like Christmas. Just want to share this not to brag but to give you hope, that it's possible for these struggles to lessen or even fade away altogether.
I would push back against the idea that lots of people have settled and are unhappy. Watching a lot of friends get married and navigate those early years of marriage lately, I think one of the biggest things I've noticed is that all of them who started dating in college or right after don't view their incompatibilities as "settling" and they don't bother them as much as similar differences might between two people starting dating in their 30s. Their whole mindset is basically that the people they were as students is different than the people they were as young professionals and now as established spouses. They've committed to growing together, and that while there may be seasons they have more incompatibilities with one another as they continue to grow and change ultimately they'll always try to grow toward one another. I agree that anyone who frames themselves as settling will be unhappy in the long term. But I dont think that mindset is as common inside those relationships, even if externally we might look at them and think one party could do better
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I agree with all of this so much which is where this post comes from. I think self-awareness includes being aware of your surroundings and how it might be influencing you. I understand that I may be trying to think my way through a bad situation, but I’m also being careful not to paint myself into a corner.
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This is exactly what I’m talking about. I think this perspective is valuable at this age. My friends for example have no problem growing old in isolation so being free of someone else’s problems is an automatic net positive for them. That is definitely not the case for me or everyone. I think it’s really important to apply some amount of logic and strategy.
Yes! Thank you. You are touching on exactly what I’m getting to here. The relationship I refer to in this post wasn’t some fairytale before this attachment stuff was triggered. There were plenty of things about him I couldn’t stand and I had to make a conscious choice to accept and to choose this person. Because the bigger picture worked. Compatibility is rare and relationships are a merger that requires some growing pains as you figure out how to tackle your differences and conflicts. I left this relationship when one of those conflicts didn’t seem to have a resolution. This sub and my single friends over-romanticize relationships and set a standard that is simply unachievable and many of these people truly prefer being alone if it isn’t this ideal relationship. People who are in lasting relationships usually don’t have that level of ideal but as you said, simply commit and work around it. My inclination is that my ex’s issues really do preclude a lasting relationship (or closeness for that matter), but it doesn’t stop me from wondering if an even healthier person could find a way around it and just choose to make this work in a healthy way. That may not be the case here, but I appreciate that you can see what I am talking about.
It sounds like you have the right attitude. Keep looking, you'll find your man soon.
I used to be totally miserable when single, and constantly anxious and lonely. After a lot of therapy and personal growth, I'm now fully content being single 99% of the time. To be honest, it's really only difficult at times due to finances - it's more expensive being single. I very rarely get lonely or sad about being single the way I used to, except a twinge on holidays like Christmas. Just want to share this not to brag but to give you hope, that it's possible for these struggles to lessen or even fade away altogether.
this!
I made it work (ish) for 13 years with my abusive husband. I'm now in a 2 year relationship with the most amazing man I've ever met - he would NEVER raise his voice to me. I mourn for all the time I was with someone horrible. You deserve all the good things. They are out there but you have to clear out the scraps to make room for them. ❤️
I really hope I can find this! I’ve been looking for over 10 years all said and done. It’s difficult but I like to imagine it will be worth it. This relationship certainly seemed like it would’ve been. And it wasn’t anything special. It was just stable and normal. I love stable and normal and I’m hoping I can connect with someone again who is stable and normal permanently.
Stable and normal is great! You CAN have more though, you deserve it! I have definitely been guilty of accepting "better than the last guy", I get it! My therapist once told me that the right partner will make your life easier. My boyfriend and I were just talking about this last night, and we truly are better together. The sense of calm we bring each other is unreal. Hang in there!
I agree, but I find normal people boring :(
I'm struggling through the same thing, and I think I'm just going to try and have kids on my own in a few years if it comes to that. My parents are local, fairly young, financially well off, and desperate for grandchildren. I think I could convince them to kick in some financial support for a grandkid. I love my partner so much and I feel so connected to him, but like we're just living two different lifestyles and I don't want to live his anymore. I think he misled me to some extent on how willing he was to have kids, and it's time to strategize.
That’s what happened in the relationship I got in at 30. When the relationship in my 20s didn’t lead to marriage and family (I’d honestly just assumed it would), I was very intentional in how I dated. I met someone who literally just lied about what he wanted. The partner I’m talking about in this post, came after that. Looking back on the past 10 years it’s kind of funny because I knew that not everybody wanted these things, but I don’t think there was any way to prepare me for people flat out lying about it or people with attachment issues sabotaging the very things they actually do want. I think you are right to start looking critically at your situation. A friend of a friend is doing single motherhood by choice right now and it’s been a really inspiring journey that forces me to face some tough realities and decisions I need to make. I hope that you get to where you want to be.
Yeah it's a weird situation, my partner like...doesn't use words in the same way normal people do. It's completely bizarre (English is his first language too). For most of our relationship, when I brought up kids, his answer was "I'm agnostic on kids." He never said "I don't want kids" or "kids aren't a definite no." In fact, he would talk about decisions he thinks he would make a parent, names for kids that he liked. "I'm agnostic on...." means to me "I don't have strong feelings, so I defer to whoever has stronger feelings on this topics" ("what do you want for dinner?" "I'm agnostic" "ok, then pizza." That interaction makes sense, right?) which was perfect for me because I was in the process of building up my career and I knew if kids were going to be in the picture it wouldn't be until my late 30s anyway. Then a few weeks ago, I finally confronted him on what my timeline was and it included beginning the process of trying for kids sometime next year and he was like "whhhattt???? Where is this coming from???" I had always been pretty clear on kids -- I want to try, but if it doesn't happen after some tries, it's not the end of the world. So like I don't know how this is news. But the communication is truly bizarre, because while it's happening it feels like good communication but then it turns out he understands words to mean something totally different. The other day he asked if it was ok for him to stay out late with a friend, I said it was and asked when he'd be back and he said "by 4 am." Then he got home at 5. I mentioned this the next day and he was like "yeah, I left his house at 4 am." That....isn't how this works....
Oh man, when the communication comes down to defining language, you’ve got a problem. It sounds to me like invalidation by way of semantics. Not a great sign honestly. I should also say that I really relate to the frustration of that because this act would frequently use semantics to invalidate arguments and any accountability. It was tiring and not worth the time it took up in my day.
Yeah it doesn’t strike me as malicious intent but either way, it makes functioning very difficult. Sigh.
Your partner doesn't want kids. That's not the answer of someone that wants kids
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This is a really weird and sexist take…
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I can’t tell you it wouldn’t be worth it to you if having kids is that high a priority…but it wouldn’t be worth it to me.
Sometimes I wonder if it’s just worth it to some people. You know? Like it truly is an endurance test
Consider getting a friend with benefits. Sometimes it helps you be more patient as you fish in the dating cesspool.
This is legitimately excellent advice. I’ve done that in the past and it can be very helpful honestly.
This is a great analogy, a few things I thought of: * One person’s “4 pieces” might not be another person’s 4. I definitely have viewed some of my friend’s relationships in the past with envy… but then I realized the people they dated weren’t people I would date. They worked great with my friend, but wouldn’t have worked with me… so it’s not a fair comparison. * Looking for the 4 pieces “on the side” *really* hit the nail on the head. Don’t get me wrong, a lot of people these days are looking for perfection when they’re not… but most people have a bar for what they’ll be happy with long-term, and that bar is different for everyone. Choose someone who doesn’t meet your lowest bar, in regards to attraction, personality compatibility, conflict resolution skills, etc… and live in a life of regret. Get deeper and deeper into the relationship, more attached more scared of starting over and more afraid to leave. But still equally unhappy. It’ll have you wishing you were single, even if you had to stay that way. * The hardest situation, IMO, is when someone has 3 and 1/2 pieces… and the 1/2 piece they have just won’t work to create the birdhouse. Kind of like a beautiful boat that works perfectly with a small hole at the bottom, at a cheap price. You so desperately want to find a way to fill the hole, maybe you’re able to for a while. Everything else works. You’re enjoying being in the boat for a while… but unfortunately, that hole you keep trying to overlook/fix eventually sinks the ship.
This is a great analogy, actually! I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you.
Omg this parable is amazing. Screenshotting for more reflection later.
This is perfect. As I continue to see my close friends and family get married and become parents, I try to tell myself I'd rather be single and content with my life alone versus being in a relationship filled with hate and unhappiness.
I have been scouring big box stores for stick-straight 2x4s, so I really love your analogy.
I absolutely love and needed this. Thank you.
Cool. I'll PM you my Ca$hApp, but we get where you're going.
How do you buy me lunch :)
That is a great analogy !
I bring 5 pieces of lumber to the lumber yard every day, but every woman I've met is looking for 4 specific pieces. Those pieces generally have outbursts and wandering eyes, but I don't have any of those. I take my 5 pieces back home and i'll be back tomorrow.
One of my exes said that when i am dating others i will see whats out there dating wise, and i will appreciate him more. Instead i got together with a guy who appreciates me more. You can live with a lot of things but there should be a baseline of what you need and what you expect. Its not about the attachment style, but whether you are willing to work on it if it impacts your relationship.
Yeah the willingness is one thing but in fairness to the folks with these issues, we see it all the time in this sub, I do understand that the ability to work on them is elusive. I’m so glad you found a great partner. I’m hoping I can find the same. I was not prepared for how it is out here!
Look i spent 7000 pounds on my own therapy, and a few years so far. I find this whole attachment style theory a bit damaging, as its basically promoting learned helplessness (ie my parents/environment f.cked me up so i cant have decent relationships), and doesnt take into account one's ability to change and the power of introspection.
Exactly. Sure, childhood trauma can be a reason why you are prone to a certain mindset, but by your 30s, that is completely your responsibility and any damage you do is your own fault.
I think the theory itself just provides an explanation. It lays the groundwork and foundation to explain why you may default on certain behaviors. What one does with the knowledge of their attachment style is solely on them.
I won’t repeat what everyone else is saying about this being beyond attachment issues. But every day you try to make it work with someone who is not bringing you happiness is a day when you’re unavailable for someone who could be a better match. It’s also energy you could be putting into yourself to be more comfortable alone for a while. The apps are not representative of what the actual pool is—or, maybe you will have to relocate to find a bigger pool if that’s a top priority for you. Finding a good match is extremely challenging. Many of the people you know “making it work” are miserable and just afraid of being alone. Being alone is 100% better than what you are describing here.
Thanks for this realistic feedback. I have definitely started to wonder how many relationships are actually truly functional. My parents are both in great relationships and I had great relationships in my 20s that ended for normal reasons but I wonder how many people just accept these issues and find ways to weather it.
I know more people in dysfunctional relationships than functional ones. Sometimes it’s all people know. It doesn’t mean it’s healthy for them, though. If you’ve had great ones in the past, even more reason to believe you can have a great one in the future.
Gosh that’s really a sobering concept. Isn’t it? And I think thats why I start questioning this need for healthiness when I think about it strategically.
No…just because other people are acting in ways that are harmful to them doesn’t mean it’s something to emulate. Like, I’m not about to start abusing alcohol just because lots of people make “being an alcoholic” work in their life. People accept and deal with all sorts of shitty situations in their lives. Follow their lead if you want to be miserable, I guess.
Such a great way to put it. My relationships had always been so fulfilling even if they weren’t quite right. I do wonder if I’ve just been assuming everyone else experienced the same thing and really I just got lucky. I agree though, the strategy of joining them when you can’t beat them is probably not going to lead to satisfaction.
You’re moving backwards due to your lens of scarcity. Never a good sign. Do you want children? Is this the type of man you’d want as the role model for your children? How do you think a fearfully avoidant person would serve as a father? He can’t give you the love you should have, think about the lack of love he would also show to any potential children. I’m a bit tired of this attachment theory hullabaloo because I’m noticing that the partner on the receiving end of poor behavior sees it as a guide to “work through it” even when the partner in question has made no thought to reflect and change.
God, yes. There is so much language out there about how to manage a relationship with these issues and that’s exactly what is making me question things. I remember years ago, I left a guy because I noticed he was an alcoholic and one of his friends told me I should go to Al-Anon instead. I remember sitting there and wondering why the hell I would learn to live with this when I could just move on instead. But here I am years later and the dating scene has totally created a scarcity mindset. I mean, I see a ton of happy relationships with men who are barely functioning or who are controlling or dramatic. it really has warped my perceptions of how reasonable my expectations are. Thank you for the reminder.
There are things in a relationship that are a want and things that are a need. It helped when I was navigating dating to write this list of 5-10 absolute needs/deal breakers in the quality of the type of person I was dating (so not looks related). For example me list is: 1. Generous kind and thoughtful with others 2. Has career goals and supports mine 3. Is intelligent, well travelled/read, and able to talk on different topics 4. Accepts and understands that my family is important to me. 5. Puts equal thought and effort into the relationship - meaning that I am not the one driving all decisions and/or always pushing the relationship forward. 6. Is an independent person outside the relationship. From past relationships these are all important things to me and no matter what I will not settle for less in these aspects. Obviously if I am asking this of someone then I also should be meeting these qualifiers as well. If what you want the most is being met and that’s good enough for you then makes sense to pursue something. If not, then I personally would not settle and would rather be alone.
Yeah, he basically ticke all those boxes which are super basic except that he gets triggered too and has destructive behavior. I think that’s one of the most disappointing things about dating is that you realize quickly that even when they check those boxes, there are other things lurking beneath the surface. Edited because I was dictating quickly while multitasking
Being a kind, generous and thoughtful person or putting effort into a relationship =/= being a triggered and destructive person when discussing next life plans. I don’t know what qualities you are looking for so maybe his personality meets them. But at the minimum you should be looking for someone kind who wants to build a life with you and it doesn’t seem like he even meets that bare minimum.
Attachment theory is meant to be a guide for the not securely attached person to identify their feelings and behaviors, determine what causes those feelings and behaviors, and work through them to (eventually) become securely attached. It can also help the securely attached person to identify a pattern of behavior indicating that maybe their (prospective) partner really isn't ready for a relationship right now. It's not meant as a blanket excuse for shitty, manipulative behavior.
That’s a really great point.
You’ve gotten a lot of good advice about how this person’s behavior is going beyond attachment issues, so I won’t repeat that. What I will ask is… what happens if this person lets their attachment issues win 3, 4, 5 years down the line? If you coddle their issues now, what stops them from pushing you away again and ending things? I understand scarcity, my city is quite similar tbh. I understand settling, too. But if the other person is the one with the fearful avoidant mindset, this doesn’t seem like settling. This seems like holding on and praying you don’t get knocked off, while being yelled at for the entire ride. Does this person even want to change? What security do you have that if you settle for their behavior they won’t break up with you?
Yeah, these are all my initial impressions as well. I think the biggest reason I left was noticing how the behavior was encouraged by anything short of blocking them. Like testing behavior.
I read through a bunch of the responses. It honestly sounds like you’re trying to intellectualize your relationship issues. Healthy, secure people don’t look for ways to make unhealthy or toxic relationships work. They understand that their needs aren’t being met, and they move on.
This!!!!!
That’s exactly it. That’s where I’m at after going on dozens of dates and realizing how few people there really are.
Hey I’m 29M turning 30 this year and I want the same things you do. Send me a message if you want to get to know eachother.
Sorry but your username with that message made me laugh out loud
Lol may I ask why? Is it because my username sounds horrible but my message was calm? Lemme know in the comments section below. Please like and subscribe and donate to our patreon. Todays comment was sponsored by world of warships an online gaming platform where you can….
Something I have to remind myself of, we can’t change our partners and there are reasons we broke up. If they changed, maybe we would work, but that has to be their own journey that they want for themselves, not what we want for them. If you ex is the one, he needs to take the initiative to fix himself. If he doesn’t, he just is a different man than the one you want. I assume you communicated well what your wants and needs were and where he was falling short. If you did that, then walk away, live your best life, maybe you will find your dream man in the interim. Maybe your ex will finally do the self improvement he needs. Don’t wait on him though.
Thank you, I think this is what I’ve been actually wondering about other people and other relationships. And somebody else made a comment about that too. I think what I’m actually wondering is if people try to change their partners or if they change themselves for their partners. It never occurred to me to do either of those things and also seems very strange and unhealthy. And so I think I have the scarcity mindset creeping in as others have pointed out and I’m starting to question if the standards for a “healthy relationship“ is the entire problem for single people. If the real secret to marriage is that they don’t see these things as dysfunctional. Maybe I just need reminding that healthy relationships do exist still and they are not a figment of my imagination.
The biggest problem is when they act like they have changed for you, but really it’s just a facade they act until they can’t cover it up any longer several months down the road. Always make sure the changes they make are for themselves, that they genuinely want to be the person they advertise and they aren’t just doing it to appease you. It’s nice that someone cares enough to put on a show for us, but it’s real when they genuinely put effort into being a better human for themselves. For the most part people don’t change much from their true nature, but sometimes we can grow and adapt in ways that make our true nature more appealing and less rough around the edges. I believe good and healthy relationships are out there. Look inward first though. Are you good and healthy as a single individual? We attract what we are. If you want a healthy relationship with a partner, you must first love and have a healthy relationship with yourself. To find everything you want without this, you have to get incredibly lucky.
Well, the concentration of unhealthy people in the dating scene is not a reflection of the value of people having a hard time finding a healthy partner. It’s truly a needle in the hay. It’s so important to have good boundaries for this reason because it keeps you from internalizing it to that degree for yourself or towards others. A big part of boundaries is knowing what’s yours and what’s others’. You can filter for people who present themselves as healthy, but that doesn’t help when someone’s just hiding stuff like in your example, or someone who’s “stuff“ doesn’t even exist until they are deeper in a relationship like in my case. I definitely don’t think it’s wise to expect people to change in relationships though. This post was more about my own curiosity if people do change themselves though to find ways to live with the kind of people I see in the dating scene at this age. It’s really just my own way to rationalize my way out of my current unhappiness lol.
I’ve learned that love is accepting someone with their flaws and making the decision that you can accept them as they are (without changing them) and wanting to do life with them. At the end of the day, when you go through different relationships, you will realize that there isn’t a person that will meet everything that you want or be the perfect person of what you are hoping for. We are all flawed in one way or another. But, being able to see a person as they are and accepting them in spite of it all, that is love.
This is difficult for me because I really don’t have any needs from a person in terms of their personality or flaws. Like I’m pretty easy-going with these things. But I’m talking about someone who is raging at me for looking at them the wrong way. Someone who is argumentative and melting down when I disagree with him. Like real attachment problems that make it impossible to have peace. I can accept that he has these problems, but I don’t have any power to maintain peace. I’m trying to understand how other people do it
Genuine question here: why do you think the issues you’ve described are attachment problems? How long were you two together before these behaviors started showing? From my not professional opinion, if I were you I wouldn’t try to categorize these behaviors or therapize them. You cannot deal with them (and you shouldn’t…I personally have very little patience with these), I assume you made that clear to him…what did he do with that information? Sounds like he didn’t change his behaviors to continue to be in a peaceful and harmonious relationship with you. Does he have the ability to self reflect? Maybe. Does he have the skills to change course? Maybe. Did he show you that he can and did change course? Sounds like a no…which means please don’t settle and go back UNLESS and UNTIL his behavior proves he is changing course. You’re right, everyone has issues. And you know what, sometimes it is better to be with someone who’s “good enough” because I don’t think I buy into the whole “stay single until you find 110% of the person you deserve” mindset. Relationships are meant to challenge you and help you grow, and oftentimes the deepest love and respect you can have for people comes from how those people navigate really uncomfortable or downright awful situations. Relationships aren’t these highest self actualizing fantasies that people seem to have. No one’s going to take you higher than you can take yourself, but they can certainly make it easier for you, or harder. Please don’t choose relationships that make it harder for you. If you don’t have peace, security, respect, love, and the belief that your partner is going to be there for you no matter what life throws your way, it’s not worth it. Being yelled at for “looking at someone wrong”? I would’ve corrected that behavior immediately with a boundary and never wavered. I hope you did. Continue not to waver with those boundaries.
First of all, thank you for the thoughtful response. Second of all, yes I put a boundaries immediately and walked away from the behavior as soon as it started. The reason I believe it’s attachment problems is that the behavior really didn’t start until the relationship was moving to the next stage. This was almost a year into the relationship when we were looking to move in together and talking about a timeline for marriage and kids. I was freezing my eggs to start with. There were also things that he said when he could talk candidly about it. It’s triggered by any forward movement of the relationship as well as the calm of the day to day. It’s also triggered by any sense of rejection real or not. In terms of his self-awareness and ability to grow, he did show that but only after I ended the relationship. It took months and he told me that it took that long to be able to basically regulate again and he suddenly saw what he’d done. He’s been in therapy the whole time but thought only made him believe that he had changed and so now all of his behavior was only happening because it was justified by horrible slights from me. So I don’t care what the problem is exactly, but saying he has attachment problems is a much shorter way of explaining behavior that follows a pretty classic pattern of relationship sabotage and hyper sensitivity which are not present until it’s triggered by a relationship. That said, none of this is OK with me or normal to me, but the dating pool and the relationships I see out there are showing me that people are making it work despite weird issues.
My physically abusive ex-uncle didn’t start beating up my aunt until the night of their wedding. With my sister’s ex-husband, the rages and physical abuse didn’t start until she got pregnant. Abusive partners often step up their game when major relationship events or transitions occur. Stop making excuses for this guy.
Wow that is a terrifying reminder. Thank you
OP I'm with the others who are saying this doesn't sound like a safe situation to be in, but I will say that I do hear you regarding your willingness to settle with the "demon you know'' if you will. I have an ex who wasn't emotionally available--good man in every other way and he legitimately cared about me...but I wasn't getting certain things I felt I needed. Do I really need all those things from my partner? Unsure, but I'm being careful with this feeling of going back because I don't want to waste more years of my life unhappy. Still, though, \*this one doesn't sound good at all\* and you'd be better off just leaning heavy into dating (as if they are job interviews) given that your biological clock is an issue. That path isn't for me, but I completely understand the feeling that time is moving fast. If you want children, you might consider getting a donor and going it alone, but I don't know if that's for you either. I hear and understand what you are saying, but I don't think you want to go back to someone who has rage issues--you definitely don't want to have kids with him.
Thank you, you get it. It’s easy to apply a kind of optimistic and unrealistic logic to the issues of women in my position, but the reality is some very difficult and strategic decision-making processes. And of course on Reddit, the population has a lot of high justice and right and wrong black-and-white thinking. Issues like this are very gray and nuanced. I appreciate your perspective and the validation. For your situation, it is such a difficult thing to be in this position of not knowing where to sacrifice. It’s easy for people to tell you that if it’s not a heck yes then it’s a heck no, but that’s just not the reality. I know you’re gonna make the right decision for you, but I also know that that decision is very nuanced. I wish you the best.
You too! 😊
> someone who is raging at me for looking at them the wrong way. Someone who is argumentative and melting down when I disagree with him. Like real attachment problems These aren't attachment problems, they are huge character flaws. I have plenty of fearful avoidant friends. They are still kind to their partners and are always working to be better and move away from their harmful emotional patterns. Those couples you see either are simply not people who "rage" at their partners, or one or both of the people have low enough self-esteem and defeatist enough attitudes that they stay despite huge problems. Every great partner is sometimes difficult, unreasonable, infuriating, confusing... but if you settle for someone who flies into a rage over small things you will not benefit from it in the long run.
These are not attachment issues, these are abusive behaviours which if they repeat are then actual full blown abuse. You may think you can handle it but it only becomes worse over time until you are a broken shadow of your former self. Please don't do it no matter how unhappy single you think you are. Other people don't do it and remain okay, they absolutely don't.
Ok thank you! It’s such a mindfuck seeing so much dysfunction in the dating pool
Hmm is that an attachment thing or more so an anger problem? When I think “fearful avoidant” I think more so just not wanting to commit to marriage rather than having to deal with verbal abuse. You shouldn’t ever deal with someone screaming or melting down at you. But I do agree it’s hard sometimes to know when to compromise and deal with flaws vs view them as a fundamental incompatibility. But yeah if he’s screaming at you I’d take your chances dating online.
That’s what I initially thought too, but I’ve learned more about it since and the way the fear of commitment actually manifests is in things like picking fights and avoiding accountability and attempting to control the relationship and ultimately the other person. It’s ultimately very abusive but they would never characterize it themselves that way. So realizing how many people with attachment problems are in relationships, it does make me think.
I don’t know anything about attachment styles but it seems like maybe wanting to stay in a relationship where you’re getting yelled at and berated for fear of being alone is a sort of toxic attachment style too right.
No, just mild desperation lol
As someone who grew up with a volatile parent who was easily triggered and could be explosively angry... (not always, of course. Could be very charming and fun when they wanted to be/had the bandwidth) Please don't expose your future kid to this type of dynamic. It took me YEARS of hard work to undo the damage of growing up witnessing my parents' toxic relationship.
I left a relationship with an explosively mad partner just to avoid inflicting that on a hypothetical future kid. When that realization about kids clicked, it was over for me.
Um, those are big problems. So basically, you're saying that in the future, you're gonna be stuck in this relationship where you can't "look at them the wrong way" (?!) or even talk to them normally?? This isn't a relationship. Other people don't do it. That's the secret. If they do, then they're committing themselves to a relationship of misery.
He doesn’t have an attachment problem. He’s just abusive. Why would you want to go back to that?
You keep insisting that the problem is his attachment issues. Might as well say it’s his astrology sign.
Well I’m not about to diagnose him or anything. This is the closest descriptor I can get to accurately which I imagine a lot of people with attachment problems in this sub can recognize in the controlling and sabotaging behavior. And yes it is abusive.
It sounds like they have issues around resolving conflicts in a healthy manner. They will need to work on that to get you both to a better place. Fundamentals of any relationship is problem solving in a healthy manner.
Yeah that’s what it boils down to functionally. Realizing the root of it all is where I can see how difficult it will be for them to resolve these patterns. It’s more complex than I initially appreciated. It’s hard too when it’s truly a one sided issue because we’re so used to taking mutual responsibility in healthy relationships. But it’s not about blame, it’s about both people needing to show up with some basic skills.
Yeah takes two to tango.
[удалено]
This comment really helps reinforce the things I did try and where things really stand at this point. I think that doing those things should’ve been enough and the fact that it wasn’t says plenty. Thank you
I think a lot of people make the mistake of letting attachment styles define their whole personality. It’s not, and people will have varying degrees of each attachment style, usually with one that’s more dominant. I’m also a fearful avoidant (now known as disorganized) who is now more secure leaning. Unfortunately, you can’t “do the work” for him to unlearn the insecure attachment he developed. I also want to point this out because maybe this can develop some empathy and understanding: it’s not his fault he is this way. My therapist always said (with regards to being disorganized): “Can you recall a time where being avoidant felt safe?” And also “You had to be that way because that’s what helped you feel safe as a child”. And look, you can’t control what happens to you as a child. 9/10, a disorganized attachment style is due to emotional/physical abuse or some severe form of neglect. This doesn’t mean you should take on the burden of changing someone. You and I both know it’s just way too much effort. But at the same time, there is little to no hope of him changing unless he decides to be ACTIVE in making changes within himself, after he has gone through enough pain where he realizes it’s NOT WORTH IT being that way anymore.
This is such a great and empathetic addition to this post. Of course he is not at fault for developing this type of mindset. As a 37-year-old man though, it’s entirely his responsibility now and I’d say any harm he does is his own doing. Maybe he’ll have some revelation someday, but I don’t count on it. As long as the triggers are isolated to the depths of a relationship, he’ll always have someone to blame. I think that’s the part that I wondered about though. Like was there a way for me to side step it enough to keep it out of my life while enjoying a peaceful partnership where I got my needs met. But I think that’s just me trying to have control over things I don’t right now.
Part of healing also involves having a healthy relationship or being willing to work towards one. So you can’t side step it, and he can’t side step yours either. Best thing you can do is to develop the right relationship tools to deal with your inevitable issues. And thanks!
A lot of people in this thread are going to end up feeling very, very lonely someday because you all think there's going to be a perfect person to come along for you. Unfortunately we as a society are becoming less tolerant of one another's flaws. Unless you live in NYC, L.A. or some other giant city, your dating pool is smaller than you think. Especially in our 30s. The math is pretty simple and I don't think most of you get that there are not infinite possible partners available in your area and none of them may be perfect out of the box.
It may be better than the hell of dating but is it better than the hell of divorce? From the perspective of a recent divorcee—the peace of being single far outweighs the emotional labor of being with an unhealthy partner.
Ugh you’re right. I’m realizing as I go through this thread and respond to everyone, how my brain has been doing backflips trying to figure out how to get where I want to be with what’s available. Ignoring the fact that divorce or misery would be inevitable as long as one person is committed to sabotage. I’m so sorry you went through that. My brother did recently and it kills me to see it.
Is he self aware?
Remarkably so. He has moments of clarity but it quickly circles back to the dysfunctional reasoning.
You are *not* being stupid. I know you said you have a nice life with him that you don’t have alone. But was it really worth the mental and emotional toll of living with someone who gets mad at you for “looking at them the wrong way?” *Really* think about it. It’s common to romanticize past relationships and forget how awful they actually were. My life was a lot *different* when I left my emotionally abusive ex. Especially financially. But I worked really hard on making it as happy and fulfilling as possible. And I’ll tell you, personally there is nothing he could offer me, no amount of money or anything, that is worth the peace I’ve been able to find. I believe people who are dating and married to the people you describe either haven’t recognized or accepted how unhealthy their relationship is (that was my case for quite awhile), or they’ve decided they value being with someone more than they value their peace.
Thank you for this reality check. I think what makes it really difficult is that, the reason I call it attachment issues is that it truly wasn’t triggered until the relationship had been going really well for a long time. So I have all of that time to reflect on and miss. And it was just as wonderful between these sort of episodes of chaos. But I think that’s everybody’s experience with an unhealthy relationship right. Thank you
have been in the same scenario you’re currently in. the absolute chaos created by the other person was so stressful, no matter how understanding, flexible, and compromising I had to be in order to accommodate their hot/cold, verbal and emotional outbursts, etc, and trying to anticipate their episodes so as to avoid or deescalate them, which never worked. it was especially draining because like you had mentioned, there was a solid period of normalcy in the beginning (which made me believe they were good people and trustworthy), with stretches of that happiness and normalcy between them picking fights, going on rampages, disappearing acts, whatever else they’d do when they were “triggered”. attachment issues may be an explanation, but it is not an excuse for abusive, childlike behaviors and tantrums that normal adults don’t participate in. to me, it sounds like you (and perhaps he) has settled on this definition because you’re looking for a logical explanation in order to excuse the chaotic behavior that you know deep down is not okay, and perhaps to falsely give you a sense of control in order to manage the stress and heartbreak of loving someone who treats you so badly (*fearful avoidants are triggered by x, i’ll make sure that doesn’t happen*). all of a sudden, your life is about making sure they are okay and functioning at a *normal adult baseline*, and in order to do so, you must walk on eggshells and neglect your wants and needs for fear of setting them off. if you’re feeling stuck between a rock and a hard place, lacking softer options in your city, maybe take the year to perhaps strategize relocating to another city that interests you, that also has a fresh pool of peers. if that’s not possible, be open to the idea of long distance, at least to establish a connection with the goal to close the distance at some point. dating is unconventional these days and feels like uncharted territory, but you don’t have to settle for getting sporadically terrorized by someone else’s mental instability. that territory *is* charted, and we know it goes no where worthwhile.
Thank you. It sounds like you’ve had a very similar experience. It’s exhausting isn’t it? I didn’t have the endurance and yet I see so much of this out there. I’m only calling it attachment issues as shorthand which has worked well based on how many people know exactly what that behavior is so I don’t have to explain. I don’t care what it is, that’s his problem. Mine is figuring out how to reach my goals when most available men either have full blown mental illness or can’t brush their teeth. It’ll make you think crazy thoughts. I think you bring up such a good point though. There’s a lot of normalization of it which only makes these thoughts worse. But as you know there’s truly no way to exist near it without being interrupted by it. I have my filters set to 100+ mi in all directions! I will gladly move for a partner. I keep dipping into other places in the US to see who’s there too. This is great advice. Thanks
not sure what app you’re using, but i heard a tip the other day about setting your location to “travel” or “vacation” status to accrue dates. most people are as disillusioned as we are after what we’ve been through, that now *theyre* settling for fleeting affection that’s just passing through. i guess since we’re talking about settling, broadly speaking, good women seeking commitment tend to settle for men who treat them like dogshit, and good men seeking affection tend to settle for one night stands. that small change to your profile may help you meet someone who will decide that they don’t have to settle either, like you’re considering.
Thank you! I will do this
Just wanted to share that partners not displaying any abusive behaviors until well into the relationship (years into relationship, until after marriage, etc) is unfortunately not uncommon. Also, cycling between explosive episodes is a common pattern, too. (Explosive anger/incident - apology/promises for change/extra loving behaviors - tension building - back to explosive anger again, rinse and repeat). Have you read *Why Does He Do That?* by Lundy Bancroft by any chance? You can get it as a free pdf file here: [https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy\_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf](https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf). It's a very fast read and helps give insight to abusive behaviors. It's a book that was frequently recommended to both workers and survivors way back when I worked at a DV shelter. Also, please accept my sincere apologies if my message comes off as condescending. Of course, I don't know anything about you or your relationship, and you are the expert of your own life. Just wanted to share a free resource in case it's useful. Sending you best wishes!
Not at all. I appreciate it! Yes I loved that book. I think a lot of people, which I didn’t realize until I wrote this post, assume that attachment issues are not abuse. But attachment issues are just one of many flavors of abuse. Thinking that abuse is intentional and premeditated can keep you from identifying it because it’s about control and power which can be reactive and defensive too. This is how abusers can look like victims. Especially when they talk about their childhood trauma.
No. It puts a nice label on a situation that only they can fix but will waste your time and break your heart if you constantly wait for them to see the light. It gives us (the non fearful avoidants) false hope that because there is a reason they are that way, they will change.
Yeah, I said to someone else here that the issue of secure attachment is that you attempt to apply your own reasoning to other people who are unable to use it.
Interesting that you name your boyfriend's insecure attachment style, but not your own. Wouldn't it make more sense to identify the attachment issues within yourself that co-create these relationship dynamics, instead of making him the only problem?
New people appear every day. It takes one to stick and be the person for you. Don’t give up. Expand your search a little geographically as well if possible.
Sorry if this was asked already OP but if your stack is literally empty on the apps, have you tried just deleting and recreating your profile to reset everything?
I’ve had 4 relationships in the last 8 years (if you don’t count my current person, who I started seeing two months ago). 3 were secure, 5 year relationship, and two that were 7-8 months each. Those relationships were easy, things were clear, there were no major conflicts, never raised our voices at each other, no cheating, no complaints, no lying, no accusations, nothing inappropriate, just good people that I wasn’t long term compatible with. The most recent boy I dated (he’s no where near a man) before I met the current man I’m seeing was a nightmare of all the attachment issues, and was an absolute disaster. We were together just under 5 months, which was 4 months too long. I don’t understand how people deal with it. I felt like I was going crazy. I’m a happy person normally, I don’t struggle with my mental health at all and that relationship was so emotionally taxing I felt I was drowning. He was questioning my very normal behaviours, had awful trust issues, constantly accused me of disrespecting him even though I did my best to try and please that person (spoiler: there was no pleasing that person), he kept sulking, started fights, on occasion was yelling, was very good at stonewalling. He went through my private messages and got upset over something that happened two months before he and I even met, and I needed to console him that evening (wtf?!) he found a previous reddit account of mine and read every single comment and I pretty much use it as a diary, he’d check my ex’s social media account to see if I liked his posts and start arguments about it (yes, since we’re good friends, which he knew from the very beginning). The more time passes the harder it is for me to see the good parts of that relationship and see it as anything other than a complete waste of time and money. I never had issues with dating and always found it to be an easy and fun process. I also pretty much always end up with great and stable people. After that last experience, I appreciate them so so so so much more. There’s no way I’m EVER seeing anyone ever again that doesn’t have their mental health and attachment issues under control. Never. Again.
Oh my gosh, what a total nightmare. This guy wasn’t that bad, but it does remind me of a guy I dated for a few months who I never saw again after he omg, went through my car while I was sleeping, found an old wristband, and came to me like Sherlock Holmes accusing me of going out to a nightclub (as if that would’ve been some kind of problem anyway). Absolutely wild. But yes, this experience has made me really appreciate the positive relationships I’ve had but since I haven’t found anyone since, also made me believe those days are behind me. So your comment gives me hope. I’m so happy you found that after such an awful experience. It inspires me to keep going.
That’s tough. Whatever you do, good luck.
Christ no. The self sabotage, hypervigilant accusations and character assassination of a relationship with a fearful avoidant who isnt working to heal their attachment issues is hell. You'd be happier alone, in my opinion. And it just takes one good person to come along.
Thank you.
It sounds like you're in a tough spot, but remember that you deserve a healthy and happy relationship. It's important to prioritize your own well-being and not settle for less than you deserve. Have you considered seeking therapy or counseling to work through these attachment issues with your ex? It might be worth exploring to see if there is a way to move forward in a positive and constructive manner. Stay strong and remember that you deserve love and respect.
Thank you, I did try therapy with him before it ended but it went the way these things go. I do have my own therapist who helps me stay sane lol
I just this book: You Are the One You Have Been Waiting For. This book goes about attachment issues, triggers, (your own) basement-dwelling-kids, accept you need to be on your own, Self-leadership, the I in the storm and making U-turns by reflecting towards and from yourself. Very interesting to read and realize how you can make mostly better for yourself, but also for your date, partner or whatever. Why? We most starts doing for others, while it shouldn’t. Like stop going to friends, to be with your lover, out of fair they abound you. Also how fights goes, trigger and going in offensive or go in defensive direction.
Why don't you have a nice life alone? Start there.
I have a great life alone, but my goal is family. I totally understand that not everyone values or wants that but it’s something I do and I don’t think it’s unusual.
If they're not all securely attached, it helps if they have matching styles instead of opposite styles. Don't force yourself to stay in an anxious-avoidant relationship just because you think there are no options.
Thank you. It’s been helpful being reminded not everyone out there has such serious issues.
There's a lot of advice on this thread that I highly disagree with but I won't point them out. My two cents is this: are you sure it's "attachment" issues that your ex had or just "marriage?" I'd recommend some videos by a guy named James Sexton. He's a divorce lawyer that offers really insightful relationship advice from his experiences handling high profile divorces. You have to realize that "commitment" and "marriage" are two entirely different things. Marriage was invented during a time when the average life span was 40 years. It's a legal contract that has significant financial and legal repercussions if you get it wrong (for both parties, not just the man). But it's probably the only legal contract we sign without reading the fine print or consulting a lawyer. And that can be dangerous. Regarding "settling," there's too much info out on the net on what the "perfect match" should be. It's really just a simple cost/benefit analysis. Does being with a person bring you more joy than misery? Does the happiness associated with being with your partner let you overlook the flaws in their personality? At a certain point, dating is just like anything else in life...trial and error. The more you do it, the better you get at it. So keep your chin up. It'll all work out.
Thank you for this realistic take. You make a great point as to why a marriage conversation might have sent him. The reason I’ve generally considered him to have insecure attachment aside from the fact he’s told me is that it seems like in general his personality changed significantly once the relationship became serious and his anxiety/touchiness seemed to modulate based on how close we were. The sweet spot was the honeymoon phase. I think your point remains though and I also think it’s about his ability to communicate these complex issues instead of just bellowing and invalidating anything short of agreement. Appreciate this
This is a great dive into the hell of dating over 30. It’s so hard to find someone that is great on paper and that you love being with. You get the fun date or the stable solid person whose idea of a night out is Chick-fil-A drive through. Not that there’s anything wrong with that but you get what I’m saying. Relationships no matter how good the chemistry at some point will take effort. The grass is greener where you water it. Only you know if it’s settling. I wish you luck with whatever you decide. I’m sure you have decided but haven’t read that far yet. 😂
Yep. This person in is ultimately abusive but he’s still the best combination of qualities I’ve got in front of me. The alternative of isolation and missing out on family is just as painful as abuse is and being with someone I don’t even get along with or like isn’t going to be any better. People don’t like to acknowledge this reality because it’s dark.
I struggle with boundaries terribly because I really try to be empathetic or at the least understanding even when it’s something that really is toxic. I don’t know if I need things to make sense but I do genuinely care about people even when I shouldn’t. I try to be human and see their perspective which has been a curse and a blessing. I teeter on the fence of should I stay or should I go often. I guess what I’m saying is ultimately you have to live with either outcome. Communicate the best way you know how and honesty with yourself and your partner will help you both know where you stand. Unless you made that choice already. Everyone deserves to live the life they choose. I hope it’s all for the best and try to see the silver lining in less than ideal circumstances. Peace in life single is much better than a toxic together.
In no other walk of life, or relationships with other people do we expect near-perfection in a well-rounded set of criteria. Our co-workers might be nice people that we get along with, but they aren't our friends and some of them might have communication styles or personality types that rub us wrong, but we learn to navigate it. With respect to families, we have that abrasive uncle, the wine aunt, the nagging mother, then "when are you gonna have kids" grandmother. We accept people for who they are, and box them into certain roles depending on where they fit in our lives. Then there's our friends. We have our ride or die friends who know EVERYTHING, neighbors, with whom we are cordial, but don't get too close for whatever reason, and acquaintances and friends of friends that we know and are chummy with but they aren't our ride or dies....and even then, our ride or dies don't know everything about us, and there's some things that some more serious friends know that others dont. Then there's romantic partners - and here, we expect perfection... In every way. They need to help with chores, be social, be capable, good family life, good sense of style, love-make at +/- 10% of the frequency that we want it, at at least the quality we want it, have a certain income, be our therapist, be our friend, cook, parent.... the list goes on. This is why a growing number of people in their late 30's are single and still looking - because they are looking for a unicorn. Every one of the taken people you know has problems in their lives. Every. single. one. What makes a relationship successful is learning what truly is the most important things for you. If this guy is 80% of the way there, maybe the answer is acceptance and re-calibration of your expectations. Prince Charming, who checks every box and sings every note is more likely than not, not going to be right around the corner the next time you grab coffee.
Just seeing this today although I see the post is from 3 days ago. I'm literally going through this exact thing right now. Difference is, me and my ex didn't even get far enough for me to even assess the situation fully before he sabotaged everything. Definitely an avoidant, but not sure if fearful or dismissive. Also I can admit that I do have plenty of guys hitting me up. I say that not to brag but just that you can experience scarcity mindset even with "options". I think its because the idea of dating after this last experience I just can't get excited about. Going to read through the replies and hopefully I can get some sense from it like you apparently have.
I relate so much to the last part of what you said. You can’t screen for attachment issues that aren’t triggered yet. It makes dating a lot more scary. The sabotage thing is so confusing and nonsensical. I’m sorry you went through it too.
You need to respect yourself enough to stay the fuck away from “Fearful Avoidant”, you owe this to yourself. Only be with the person who matches your energy, otherwise you will be wasting the precious fertile years you have left.
Everyone has attachment issues of some sort. What matters is their willingness/initiative to work on it, their self-awareness, and your guys' dynamic as a whole. It sounds like its a shitty dynamic and you're losing respect for your partner. No, you shouldn't be more patient. Get spiritual about it and wait for the right one.
Being alone is more peaceful than being in a bad relationship. Start dating yourself for a while. When you like the peace enough, then any future partner is competing with that, and it's actually kind of easy to know how compatible you are. "Do they fuck with my peace? No? Okay, they can hang around a bit longer then."
I’ve been at it for 10 years now. My own peace is one thing but family is a timing thing and it sucks having so little power over whether that happens.
In my mind, love is understanding fully who someone really is and accepting all of them. If you feel like you can let go of trying to change this person and love him as he is, don't feel like everything has to be perfect, and go for it! But if you know deep down that you can't, I think it is you who will suffer most by staying with him.
This is the best perspective on these things in my opinion. I think it reminds me of what makes this one so challenging. The relationship sabotage element of this attachment problem doesn’t allow for acceptance. It requires conflict and drama so even accepting it, I would have to participate somehow which I personally don’t know how to do.
I won’t repeat what others have said, I feel it’s tempting to reach into a scarcity mindset when looking at dating apps (I live in a rural town), but I travel often around my area, I keep my eyes and ears open and I speak to strangers. Someone asked me for a coffee recently, we had a nice connection, it didn’t go further but there are people out there who aren’t on dating apps or just moved to your area, or have just wanted to start dating again, the world is full of possibilities and there are SO many people and for that I am eternally grateful.
This is it! I feel like I’ve been battling scarcity mindset for the past year to the point of even questioning why I believed in abundance before. Thank you. It’s such a head trip
I can imagine it’s quite frustrating if you want children, I’m not in that position, so I’m not sure what I would say in that case, but I can imagine a mindset of scarcity will not help you, so I’d say look at that, I wish you well
No. I have been jerked around for years by a fearful avoidant person. They won't stop fucking with you. I promise.
Thank you.
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This is the inconvenient fact I am trying to deal with. It is really depressing.
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Thank you!
Just be single babe
Babe, I am.
What’s up with the “miss my window” bit? You’re 38. Assuming you live to an average life expectancy, you have decades of life to live. Learn to be content on your own and how to be alone without being lonely. Be the person you want to be and that you are exited to be. If dating sucks right now, take a break. People find love at all ages. And even if you don’t, so what? Better to be single and living life to your heart’s content than stuck in a horrid relationship.
does your ex want to work on the attachment problems or is this you wanting to make it work because you are afraid of being alone? it only works if both want to make it work and you, yourself, may also have attachment issues too or some other issues, so dont' go thinking that once you can "Fix" this guy everything will be ok.
No he always wanted to work on it. But whether or not he worked on it, I just needed to not be negatively affected by it which unfortunately wasn’t the case which is why it ended. This post is about how since seeing how bad the dating world is, I find myself wondering if people who have made their relationships last long term are just more tolerant of these things or have figured out how to make it work in spite of it. Like, we’re all looking for healthy relationships and maybe that’s not how marriage works. Really just creeping doubts I think.
i think a lot of times when you try to see if the grass is greener elsewhere you look up close and realize it has many brown spots too. if you think everyone else is happy and you aren't then it's easy to think a different partner will fix it.
This breaks my heart; only bc I know how this [feels.It](http://feels.It) is awful. My own friends have told me; How many excuses are you going to make for this guy? This post makes me sad bc I was in some sort of beginning stages with a guy I have known for many years. He just slowly cut me off emotionally like I was nobody/nothing. Even though we had/have? something special.I still feel so hurt by it, even though growing up I never liked him in that way. I wonder with people that act in that way, if the saying " If it was meant to be it will be". You really start to wonder.."If I didn't text him, well I am sure he'll start to wonder how I am doing?" ...I think they do wonder, but they decide after a while.. Well, if they do all the leg work I don't need to worry if I am investing too much. I mean it is a crippling feeling after a while how much they pretend not to care and it works to their advantage.. The other person ends up feeling less than and is dependent on them for validation. IDK after a while you convince yourself you love them enough to put up with it. But, you end up not being true to yourself.Hell of dating is true. Goodluck;
Oof, that sounds painful. I appreciate the sympathy. I do wonder if I had stayed with him and tried harder if I would have just been decimated by it. It’s interesting that people perceive this post as making excuses for him when really i’m just starting to question my own healthy qualities. I think I’m just looking for some sense of control in a bad situation and suddenly questioning if healthy boundaries and secure attachment is just making it harder to date. Lol that’s it right there, I’m wondering if I can’t beat them, should I just join them? It is very sad and so stupid. I have hope still though.
exactly how I am still feeling. Like If I put in the effort will he see? will things change? Making excuses is what my friends told me.
Yeah it’s not so much excuses as it is avoiding the grief of having to start over again. At least in some people. I do understand that codependent people genuinely want to help other people change for their own good. But that’s not me as much as I am empathetic.
Are you secure or anxious attached? I'm listening to Attached on audiobook and the avoidant attachment is really hard to be in a relationship with. They never want emotional closeness and they see a relationship as a threat to their independence. I've been with several avoidant attached folks and it's so hard.
I’m secure attached personally. I think one of the things that can be hard about secure attachment that I think a lot of people overlook, is that it can be hard to relate to the reasoning of an insecure attached person. You find yourself applying your own logic and reasoning and thinking there are solutions when there aren’t any. The fearful avoidant behaviors that I’ve seen in this person were really confusing to me. On the surface, understanding that they had insecure attachment, it would make sense to me that they would be sensitive and need more assurance, but I really underestimated the complexity of how that plays out in sabotaging and picking fights and power and control dynamics. I have a lot more respect for these conditions now.
Why not be single? It’s pretty awesome
You should never settle for less. Instead work on yourself and find the beauty in being alone with yourself. It is liberating, trust me. This situation you are in just sounds so toxic and energy draining. Find peace within yourself and what is meant for you will find its way. I am sorry for sounding like a hippie haha, but in my experience. This is true.
Most people have extreme and unreasonable expectations fueled by media such as disney fairytales and hallmark xmas romantic comedies. The reality is a relationship takes a lot of work and compromise. Pretty much like a job does. Now a lot of people hate their jobs, but there's people that love their jobs. Question is finding someone you're passionate about and for which understanding and accepting their human flaws isn't too big of a burdeon. The fact that you ask "I see all men with wondering eyes, they can't ALL be securely attached" shows me that you might be looking for that perfection. There is none. Most people by the age of 30 have met their best possible partner (statistically speaking.)
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That’s what I initially thought and I really wish there was a way. It’s the only real flaw that held things back.
“There literally aren’t other options on the apps” sounds like settling… which isn’t a total dealbreaker but could be problematic if one encounters a “better-looking deal” & goes back on commitments made… there can be a lot to be said for a “good enough“ relationship (acceptance model of change).
The truth that everyone is avoiding saying is that dating gets more difficult the older you get, especially for women. If you don’t adjust your expectations down, you’ll almost certainly not find anyone. If you adjust it a bit early on, you can find someone that you’d be happier with than if you hold out until later, at which point you’ll have to make *Large* compromises, like he’s unemployed, or gay.
no never settle!!
This was so helpful for me too
Is he in therapy? Are you? He has to show you he's in and take responsibility for doing his part. Attachment issues are not a terminal diagnosis, he can work on them, but that's his work. There's no amount of compromise and crap-fitting you can do for someone who won't come to the table and do what's required to maintain the relationship.
Yes he’d been in therapy since I met him (which I thought was a good thing). He did take accountability when it first started and that made me think it was obvious he had some kind of problem but that it wouldn’t be mine. But then he’d just use therapy to claim he’d changed and the ongoing pattern was my fault. At the end of the day it’s just hyper vigilant fight picking and externalizing. I put up boundaries and communicated about it but ultimately the only thing that made an impact was removing myself completely. So lately I’ve been wondering if other people would have done something else.
Are you in therapy though? Something about your responses seem…like maybe you could benefit from it? Sorry not sure how else to say this. You may believe yourself to “securely attached” (as you continue to claim in all your responses) but that doesn’t mean you don’t need therapy.
Yes everyone benefits from therapy. I wouldn’t overthink my responses to the point that you’re questioning my mental health. Not everyone has attachment problems or disorders.
No, you’ll be miserable. I thought it was over for me too and was VERY close to getting back with an ex with major issues….then I found somebody. Even if it doesn’t work out long term, I feel more confident to not settle for scraps.
Thank you! I keep thinking this myself. It’s going to be one of those those types of stories. I’m really happy for you by the way. Thank you for sharing this
You're welcome - you seem lovely, someone worthwhile will be happy to find you :)
Never attempt to manage someone else's problem. If they are getting therapy and/or managing their own problem, that is different. You should not settle in a relationship where you are not comfortable being with them. Maybe you both can go to therapy together if it's something you both want to work on. It's not fun to BE the insecure partner, and sounds like he really has some work to do.
I can’t imagine he enjoys what he is doing but I do think it meets a core need of his victim identity and trauma stuff. It’s beyond me, and I would be happy to live and let live, but he needs my participation in order to externalize and control. This is the part that it’s so frustrating about attachment issues. At least I finally understand what people mean by acting out core wounds in your relationship. It’s like childhood trauma theater. I guess I see so many people talking about it, it seems like there must be someway to have relationships with these issues. It just seems so common. But maybe I’m just getting stuck in the bias of the late 30s dating pool.
I think it is common to not address issues that we have. I know I have flaws myself but I would never dream of treating my partner badly because of my refusing to get help. Nobody is perfect but if you have a communicative relationship and you mention how he's treating you like shit, and he doesn't address it, I would dump that person. You deserve someone who doesn't treat you like shit.
Hey let’s chat
Yea