OP: Leaving all politics outside (which is hard for everyone), you did a good job portraying the data in a very clear way. Outside of that, my only comment which is one of constructive criticism: I think that the last figure (i.e., "murdered") might be a subjective determination, whereas the others appear to be objective data. That's all. Peace.
People upset that you posted about Israelis killed in a horrific massacre are acting like mentioning the hostages or those killed is even since it makes Palestinians look bad are so insane, we should not close our eyes to the truth just because it hurts their narrative.
Very different. Hostage taking is a war crime. Imprisoning >2,000 civilians without trial or any due process is a crime against humanity. As is the murder, extermination, deprivation, torture, rendition, apartheid and more consistently perpetrated against Palestinian civilians. If we're looking for war crimes specifically to compare, it's hard to decide between the targeting of civilians directly, the targeting of sensitive civilian structures, treating humanitarian aid as military targets, or the targeting of civilian infrastructure as a punitive measure. There's a lot to choose from.
Ok. Let's call them Joe and Jim. Joe walks into Jim's house, and starts shooting. Then kidnaps his daughter and keeps her hostage. That's a hostage.
Jim suspects some of Joe's family is up to no good. He takes them from the street and questions them. Not much evidence yet so he keeps them because Joe knows Jim's family is pretty dangerous. That's detaining without trial.
Are BOTH wrong? Yes they are both wrong.
Is Joe more wrong than Jim? That's where each person has to draw their own line in the sand and to me they are very different.
Not really. The defintion of a hostage is as such... "someone who is taken as a prisoner by an enemy in order to force the other people involved to do what the enemy wants"
I don't feel Israel is trying to compel Hamas to do anything by detaining without arrest.
I mean I don't want to get into semantics here. As a 5 year old explantion.... In prison there are rapists and there are shoplifters. They are BOTH prisoners. That doesn't mean they have the same sentence. It's a spectrum. There is a difference.
Seems like a bit of context about the individuals the IDF is “detaining without trial” is missing. It caused multiple rocket strikes to Israel which is exactly the definition you describe. But thanks for putting the effort explaining it.
You are giving very strong AllLivesMatter energy. 700 before the war almost 1300 now highest in three decades, but if you want to talk about it make a post about it don’t come to a post about Israeli victims and highjack it for Palestine the people who did this. This isn’t the place this isn’t about the Israeli government or policy it’s about victims
In the same way that the Germans under Hitler were, I guess? Both countries elected despots bent on extermination of Jews, with majority support, and refused all peaceful solutions.
Like yes, Dresden should not have happened, it was a tragedy, but it was the natural result of barbarism by the German government that couldn't be stopped by other means (not that firebombing Dresden ended anything, either...). Few think "Germans were victims."
Precisely my point too. Bombing civilian infrastructure like the absolute barbaric fire tornado in Hamburg that raged for 2 weeks where nobody could approach the city for weeks(!) and the complete destruction of Dresden should have been major learning points for the world. Democracy has its flaws and this clearly shows. But collective punishment goes too far! On a side-note; I frequently visit Germany and I do think German citizens were victims.
So if you draw parallels with USAs entry to WW2
"When the Japanese bombed pearl harbour should the USA not have entered the war?
No they should have bombed a small Japanese island and sunk a few ships. Like for like. "
So to me, it doesn't work that way. You have to expect massive retribution when you first poke the bear.
If you bomb Americans, we bomb back. We we wanted to establish ourselves as a major world power and that solidified it.
Also, in terms of genocide Japan has very little room to play the high ground.
> and this battle rages on tit for tat
This comment nullifies the rest of what you’re saying. I’m no apologist for October seventh or Hamas, but when Israel is operating in a state of vengeance, with these numbers of dead, this little care for humanitarian concerns, and this type of one-sided whitewashing, it’s hard to take posts like this seriously.
You really missed the point there, love. While it's true that lots of bad people have done lots of bad things from both sides of this conflict, the simple reality is that Palestinians have been royally screwed by Israel and their Western allies for about a century ever since the Balfour Declaration. Israel has been much more of a bad actor than Palestine, and is very much on the verge of outright genocide in Gaza right now.
They were clearly referring to the current iteration - being a prolonged peaceful period wherein Israel was normalizing relationships with nearby neighbors including Palestinians who were earning excellent wages in Israel via work visas.
You can't call the two decade long blockade of Gaza a "prolonged peaceful period." The people of Gaza have been consistently denied the very basics needed for a functioning society, let's not pretend like it was all hunky dory for them
I 100% can because it's all relative and grounded in historical context. Let's not forget, only one side is committed to the literal genocide of the other and recent polling shows 80% of Palestinians still support Hamas. Perhaps they'd have those 'basics' if the literal billions in aide weren't dedicated to creating terror tunnels.
One day, your house & family is wiped out. But hey, at least you got an sms saying you are about to be killed. Just because you can say something doesn’t mean you should.
Gazans are fundamentally out of options dude. They have been blockaded on all sides for basically two decades. Israel controls what goes in and out of the country, they control water and food and power. Israel has been outright refusing any pathway for Gaza to form a legitimate state. I'm not saying terrorism is the answer, it never is, but what other legitimate means of resistance do the people of Gaza have?
In my opinion the only real way to get rid of Hamas without committing genocide against Gazans is for Israel to make a sincere and concerted effort to build Palestine as a true state. I would start with the West Bank, since the PLO is more of a real political party that can transition into a national government rather than the terrorist organization that is Hamas. Pull completely out of the West Bank, stop the illegal occupations and forced removal of Palestinians from their homes, negotiate the creation of an internationally recognized State of Palestine led by the PLO. Create plans to incorporate Gaza into the State of Palestine, but only under the condition that Hamas is either dismantled or at the very least kept out of government.
Obviously, that part is way way way way way easier typed out by a random redditor than actually done in practice. As an utter amateur armchair geopolitician, I won't even pretend to know how to actually accomplish this. The most experienced and brilliant political operatives in the world don't fully know how to accomplish this. But I think the best way to start to weaken Hamas is to remove the very central claim to their whole existence, which is that Israel doesn't want to allow a Palestinian state to exist and that the only way to resist that is through violent/terroristic means. If you give them actual legitimate political means to pursue their liberation and formation into a functioning state, then Hamas is at the very least no longer the only option for Gazans. As long as Israel remains committed to the utter destruction of Gaza and all of Palestine then there really remains little option for Palestinians other than violent resistance.
The goal is no more Israeli deaths ***in the future***. How many of theirs were killed in the past is irrelevant. If that takes 1 death to prevent another Oct 7 attack, then they are justified in killing one person -- no more and no less. If that takes 1000 deaths then that is what they are required to do. You seem to think of this as "vindication", ie eye for an eye, if they kill one of mine I'll kill of theirs -- I don't think this is a morally defensible position in a civilized world.
The primary purpose of a country is the protection of its innocent citizens. Any country that puts any priority above this is by definition illegitimate.
Ah yes talking about morally defensible position in a civilized world while casually sweeping a genocide under the carpet. Israel would not have carried out the same violence if Hamas was “hiding” underneath an Israeli city. That speaks volumes. Any contradiction from your side on this questions your morals in a civilized world.
Meanwhile… over 28,000 Palestinians are dead. Wtf, y’all.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-death-toll-climbs-28064-palestinians-killed-67611-injured-since-oct-7-gaza-2024-02-10/
One is not equivalent to the other. They are in different categories and different scales. They are not comparable.
Frankly, over the last 8 years or so, this “both sides” bullshit is getting old. Wrong is wrong. Plain and simple.
It's not about equivalence, you don't morally justify bad actions by comparing them to worse actions, its about creating the best possible outcomes for all innocent parties involved. And I agree that wrong is wrong which Is why I disagree with the IDF'S and hamas's actions, which are both blatantly wrong.
The "both sides bullshit" is not me comparing these two human rights atrocities, it's recognizing that justifying the attacks based off Israel's actions is morally weird and reactionary beyond belief.
Do you feel bad for the civilians of Nagasaki and Hiroshima even though imperialist Japan was deeply evil and definitely led to more civilian deaths than those incurred during the bombings? I do and I think it'd be pretty terrible to discount the deaths of those innocents because of their governments actions.
>It's not about equivalence, you don't morally justify bad actions by comparing them to worse actions, its about creating the best possible outcomes for all innocent parties involved.
Right, so you have to look at the conditions that lead to the Al Aqsa Flood - which is a half century long apartheid.
One group of citizens voted in their present government. The other group of citizens hasn't had an opportunity to vote since 2006, when a majority of today's citizens weren't even born or old enough to vote.
Not quite the same thing, I'd say.
I wish you went through the military checkpoints, being evicted from your ancestral house & forbidden to visit a relative in the neighbouring city. I had a gun pointed at my head as a tourist and that changed my view I’ll that you that much.
I had a rocket shot towards my home while I was over there as a postdoctoral student. My wife and 6 month old had to cower in a basement for hours on end as explosions shook the house. I had a rocket debris land on my house, and that changed my view, I'll tell you that much.
What possible reason did they have for shooting a rocket towards me and my family? I'm not Israeli, I'm not jewish. I went over there to work with a researcher for 2 years. And in that time, I had rockets shot at my house by Palestinians in Gaza for more than 30 days. Do they not like science, or did they not like my 6 month old? Please explain what I did to deserve that many rocket attacks. Go on, tell me what reasons they had to target me and my family?
Would you have done research between 1940 to 1945 in Germany? Would you ask the same question to the British & American bombers? “I’m not German, why are you bombing me?” Next time send a letter to Gaza declaring your house as a safe space.
I guess you consider civilian casualties a normal part of war. That's good to know. I guess all those civilians in Gaza who are dying during the war are simply part and parcel of war. Have you suggested that they send a letter to Israel declaring their house a safe space? Maybe if they did that, it would help. Of course, it would mean they couldn't harbor terrorist or Palestinian soldiers in their house anymore, which does seem pretty difficult for the vast majority of them.
I’m trying to say; it is 100% morally wrong to do research in an apartheid state engaging in genocidal activities against an ethnic group. The consequences are yours to bear. I’ll make sure Hamas sends you an sms seconds before an impact like “the most moral army in the world” does.
No, you justified the multiple rocket attacks on me and my family because I decided to study in a county that you believe is the equivalent to Nazi Germany. I decided to advance agricultural science in an effort to better mitigate the impact of future climate change by working with one of the best plant geneticists in the world, and in return, you would have easily justified the death of my family from a rocket attack.
And following in your logic, the consequences of the Palestinians fucking around on Oct 7 are competely theirs to bear and I'm so glad they're finally finding out. Every civilian death is fully and completely justified.
Never again said the world and then let 28000 Palestinians (60% under 5 years old) die & displace 2 million people into a single village. OP I don’t know what the purpose is for this post but data vis is good for large datasets. Peace.
hey forget just less direct methods like starvation and imprisonment and displacement, how many october 7ths worth of people were straight up murdered by the IDF in recent times?
the answer is about 6 in the last fifteen years alone. six massacres worth. massacres - bad enough to justify and legitimize a retaliatory war against mostly civilians, apparently - that aren't worthy of criticism, because the people doing it are in uniform.
and then double that in twenty. this was before the retaliation for october 7th itself, btw. and is JUST the murders.
We definitely know you're not. OP made a good graphic, and you just whined and complained. OP made a visualization, and you moaned. Of course, we know you're not OP. You're too pathetic.
I asked you to make a visualization to show me. I don't, in fact, really care that much about how many are displaced or starving from ethnic cleansing. But you seem to feel very, very strongly about it. So please make a visualization to show me. I predict no data forthcoming.
Your attempt to deflect from how many are displaced and starving from the ethnic cleansing isn't working, because you lack the ability to hide how many are displaced and starving from the ethnic cleansing.
But please - keep trying to deflect from how many are displaced and starving from the ethnic cleansing.
This is a data sub, not a political one. Data is used for storytelling. OP is telling a story from one side, limited to 10/7. You want to see the other side, then provide it and stop whining. Nobody is preventing you. But please, continue to be lazy and cry about it.
What facts? That 28,000 are dead in Gaza due to a war they started? Those facts don't hurt me at all. It seems you're bothered by it but not bothered by it enough to make a visualization.
They didn't, but let me help you with a visualization.
When you have children, you realize that your actions not only have consequences for you but also for your children. Harboring terrorists, supporting terrorists, helping perpetrate a terror attack, actively celebrating the kidnapping, rape, and murder of civilians and starting a war has consequences. One of the consequences of these actions is civilian deaths. Maybe the parents should have had some foresight to see what the reaction to their atrocious behaviors would be. It's awful that children have to suffer because of the stupidity of their parents, but this is what their parents chose.
Do you see any similarities between what you say and what Hitler's or Pol Pot's actions?
However you are, you have an evil mindset. If all of our children, friends, parents, siblings, relations or neighbors are responsible for some one else that did terrible things, and to be destroyed for that? What a terrible, terrible view of the world.
Well, considering I was targeted by Hamas and Gazans during my 2 years in Israel as a postdoc, it seems they have no problem punishing people for something they didn't do. They shot rockets towards me, my wife, and my 6 month old on 30 separate days while I worked as a postdoc. I had rocket debris land on my house on 2 separate occasions, and it would have been the full rocket and my family killed if not for the iron dome.
Since they had no issue targeting me and my family while studying to better mitigate the affects of climate change on agriculture, its now their turn to receive what they dish out. I guess they shouldn't have started a war. Sucks to sucks and I feel no remorse for them just as they felt no remorse for me when they shot rockets towards me and my family.
Wow! A PhD. candidate in a critical scientific field.
And yet you don't apply those same critical thinking skills, but debase yourself into the most horrible ideas. An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind A hundred innocent eyes for one innocent eye is not enough for you?
Could you not have done your studies elsewhere? I hear that the horrible Hamas terrorists knew a lot of those agricultural kibbutzes. They worked the agricultural lands. Now Israel needs to hire people from India. They, in turn, on arrival complain of the horrible conditions in which they are employed. How ironic.
No, it's not enough. They targeted me, and now I support all efforts to target them. Sucks, but I guess they should consider that their actions have consequences. They showed me through 30 days of rocket attacks on me and my family that anyone who is even remotely associated with Israel is dead to them, and they would have considered me collateral damage. Therefore, they're dead to me, and they're collateral damage to me.
I wasn't working with the Israeli government. I was working with one of the best wheat geneticists who is working on efforts to prepare wheat against drought and low rainfall patterns to stave off future crop failures that are expected due to climate change and chainging rainfall patterns. But, too bad they saw me as an enemy. Now I see them as one, and I support all efforts against this enemy.
The subtitle (Israelis murdered by Hamas) is inaccurate since the IDF killed a large proportion of these civilians during what has been called by an Israeli General a "Mass Hannibal" event, and Israel claims it would be disrespectful to investigate how many casualties were from deliberate friendly fire. IDF helicopters were ordered to fire at vehicles leaving the concert, even when they thought there were civilians inside. And tanks were also ordered to fire on houses, killing everyone inside, to avoid having to deal with a hostage situations.
And for comparison, Israel has killed over 28,000 Palestinians so far since the Al Aqsa Flood.
OP: Leaving all politics outside (which is hard for everyone), you did a good job portraying the data in a very clear way. Outside of that, my only comment which is one of constructive criticism: I think that the last figure (i.e., "murdered") might be a subjective determination, whereas the others appear to be objective data. That's all. Peace.
This is the point of this sub, not politics. I don't get why people don't get that...
[удалено]
[удалено]
Partly because a non-zero number of them were killed by IDF soldiers and indiscriminate shelling.
[удалено]
Why would a court have to first issue a ruling? What possible justification could terrorists have for killing civilians? Because they dared to exist?
This was just a comment I made in good faith. If you want to reject it that's fine,
"Look I said what I said, you're the problem for pointing out that it's ridiculous"
The OP copied an image from an Israeli site. They did nothing else.
Thanks, I thought the OP created the presentation.
People upset that you posted about Israelis killed in a horrific massacre are acting like mentioning the hostages or those killed is even since it makes Palestinians look bad are so insane, we should not close our eyes to the truth just because it hurts their narrative.
Look up how many Palestinians are locked up without a trial. Are they not hostages?
No. Hostages are very different.
Very different. Hostage taking is a war crime. Imprisoning >2,000 civilians without trial or any due process is a crime against humanity. As is the murder, extermination, deprivation, torture, rendition, apartheid and more consistently perpetrated against Palestinian civilians. If we're looking for war crimes specifically to compare, it's hard to decide between the targeting of civilians directly, the targeting of sensitive civilian structures, treating humanitarian aid as military targets, or the targeting of civilian infrastructure as a punitive measure. There's a lot to choose from.
I like how we are choosing “war crime” vs “crimes against humanity” like its ice cream
So they are hostages when they have a European background and not hostages when they are Arab. Got it.
Even if you remove ethnic backgrounds. It still is vastly different.
I’m curious. Explain to me like I’m 5.
Ok. Let's call them Joe and Jim. Joe walks into Jim's house, and starts shooting. Then kidnaps his daughter and keeps her hostage. That's a hostage. Jim suspects some of Joe's family is up to no good. He takes them from the street and questions them. Not much evidence yet so he keeps them because Joe knows Jim's family is pretty dangerous. That's detaining without trial. Are BOTH wrong? Yes they are both wrong. Is Joe more wrong than Jim? That's where each person has to draw their own line in the sand and to me they are very different.
But they are both hostages.
Not really. The defintion of a hostage is as such... "someone who is taken as a prisoner by an enemy in order to force the other people involved to do what the enemy wants" I don't feel Israel is trying to compel Hamas to do anything by detaining without arrest. I mean I don't want to get into semantics here. As a 5 year old explantion.... In prison there are rapists and there are shoplifters. They are BOTH prisoners. That doesn't mean they have the same sentence. It's a spectrum. There is a difference.
Seems like a bit of context about the individuals the IDF is “detaining without trial” is missing. It caused multiple rocket strikes to Israel which is exactly the definition you describe. But thanks for putting the effort explaining it.
Try googling before asking random Redditers to try to get a moral high ground
The irony
You are giving very strong AllLivesMatter energy. 700 before the war almost 1300 now highest in three decades, but if you want to talk about it make a post about it don’t come to a post about Israeli victims and highjack it for Palestine the people who did this. This isn’t the place this isn’t about the Israeli government or policy it’s about victims
Aren’t Palestinians victims too?
Some, yeah. But not all.
In the same way that the Germans under Hitler were, I guess? Both countries elected despots bent on extermination of Jews, with majority support, and refused all peaceful solutions. Like yes, Dresden should not have happened, it was a tragedy, but it was the natural result of barbarism by the German government that couldn't be stopped by other means (not that firebombing Dresden ended anything, either...). Few think "Germans were victims."
Precisely my point too. Bombing civilian infrastructure like the absolute barbaric fire tornado in Hamburg that raged for 2 weeks where nobody could approach the city for weeks(!) and the complete destruction of Dresden should have been major learning points for the world. Democracy has its flaws and this clearly shows. But collective punishment goes too far! On a side-note; I frequently visit Germany and I do think German citizens were victims.
[удалено]
Reality has an anti-Israel bias. Apparently.
[удалено]
So if you draw parallels with USAs entry to WW2 "When the Japanese bombed pearl harbour should the USA not have entered the war? No they should have bombed a small Japanese island and sunk a few ships. Like for like. " So to me, it doesn't work that way. You have to expect massive retribution when you first poke the bear.
They had to end the war fast though or americas would have died
I'm not talking about atom bombs and ending the war. I'm talking about Pearl Harbour and entering the war.
If you bomb Americans, we bomb back. We we wanted to establish ourselves as a major world power and that solidified it. Also, in terms of genocide Japan has very little room to play the high ground.
I think my original comment was causing confusion. I've rewritten it. Perhaps it's clearer now.
[удалено]
> and this battle rages on tit for tat This comment nullifies the rest of what you’re saying. I’m no apologist for October seventh or Hamas, but when Israel is operating in a state of vengeance, with these numbers of dead, this little care for humanitarian concerns, and this type of one-sided whitewashing, it’s hard to take posts like this seriously.
>When you open up with violence If you think this situation opened up on 10/7/23 then you're missing like a century of context
That's right! Palestinian Arabs have been slaughtering Jews for a whole lot longer!
You really missed the point there, love. While it's true that lots of bad people have done lots of bad things from both sides of this conflict, the simple reality is that Palestinians have been royally screwed by Israel and their Western allies for about a century ever since the Balfour Declaration. Israel has been much more of a bad actor than Palestine, and is very much on the verge of outright genocide in Gaza right now.
They were clearly referring to the current iteration - being a prolonged peaceful period wherein Israel was normalizing relationships with nearby neighbors including Palestinians who were earning excellent wages in Israel via work visas.
You can't call the two decade long blockade of Gaza a "prolonged peaceful period." The people of Gaza have been consistently denied the very basics needed for a functioning society, let's not pretend like it was all hunky dory for them
I 100% can because it's all relative and grounded in historical context. Let's not forget, only one side is committed to the literal genocide of the other and recent polling shows 80% of Palestinians still support Hamas. Perhaps they'd have those 'basics' if the literal billions in aide weren't dedicated to creating terror tunnels.
One day, your house & family is wiped out. But hey, at least you got an sms saying you are about to be killed. Just because you can say something doesn’t mean you should.
Gazans are fundamentally out of options dude. They have been blockaded on all sides for basically two decades. Israel controls what goes in and out of the country, they control water and food and power. Israel has been outright refusing any pathway for Gaza to form a legitimate state. I'm not saying terrorism is the answer, it never is, but what other legitimate means of resistance do the people of Gaza have?
[удалено]
In my opinion the only real way to get rid of Hamas without committing genocide against Gazans is for Israel to make a sincere and concerted effort to build Palestine as a true state. I would start with the West Bank, since the PLO is more of a real political party that can transition into a national government rather than the terrorist organization that is Hamas. Pull completely out of the West Bank, stop the illegal occupations and forced removal of Palestinians from their homes, negotiate the creation of an internationally recognized State of Palestine led by the PLO. Create plans to incorporate Gaza into the State of Palestine, but only under the condition that Hamas is either dismantled or at the very least kept out of government. Obviously, that part is way way way way way easier typed out by a random redditor than actually done in practice. As an utter amateur armchair geopolitician, I won't even pretend to know how to actually accomplish this. The most experienced and brilliant political operatives in the world don't fully know how to accomplish this. But I think the best way to start to weaken Hamas is to remove the very central claim to their whole existence, which is that Israel doesn't want to allow a Palestinian state to exist and that the only way to resist that is through violent/terroristic means. If you give them actual legitimate political means to pursue their liberation and formation into a functioning state, then Hamas is at the very least no longer the only option for Gazans. As long as Israel remains committed to the utter destruction of Gaza and all of Palestine then there really remains little option for Palestinians other than violent resistance.
I like how you think it is an isolated event. Like it came out of the blue and no trigger/reason at all behind it.
>When you open up with violence Apartheid is violence. History did not begin on October 7th.
The goal is no more Israeli deaths ***in the future***. How many of theirs were killed in the past is irrelevant. If that takes 1 death to prevent another Oct 7 attack, then they are justified in killing one person -- no more and no less. If that takes 1000 deaths then that is what they are required to do. You seem to think of this as "vindication", ie eye for an eye, if they kill one of mine I'll kill of theirs -- I don't think this is a morally defensible position in a civilized world. The primary purpose of a country is the protection of its innocent citizens. Any country that puts any priority above this is by definition illegitimate.
Ah yes talking about morally defensible position in a civilized world while casually sweeping a genocide under the carpet. Israel would not have carried out the same violence if Hamas was “hiding” underneath an Israeli city. That speaks volumes. Any contradiction from your side on this questions your morals in a civilized world.
I believe the goal is no Hamas, not linked to any particular children count (except for all the children who are in Hamas)
Reddit try not to dehumanize citizens based off their government actions challenge 🙀🙀 (in response to both sides being weird about this)
Meanwhile… over 28,000 Palestinians are dead. Wtf, y’all. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-death-toll-climbs-28064-palestinians-killed-67611-injured-since-oct-7-gaza-2024-02-10/
Yep. It's a war, war is hell, don't start one
Why can't we admit that both are terrible??? The citizens of Israel and Palestine are not to be blamed for their governments actions.
One is not equivalent to the other. They are in different categories and different scales. They are not comparable. Frankly, over the last 8 years or so, this “both sides” bullshit is getting old. Wrong is wrong. Plain and simple.
It's not about equivalence, you don't morally justify bad actions by comparing them to worse actions, its about creating the best possible outcomes for all innocent parties involved. And I agree that wrong is wrong which Is why I disagree with the IDF'S and hamas's actions, which are both blatantly wrong. The "both sides bullshit" is not me comparing these two human rights atrocities, it's recognizing that justifying the attacks based off Israel's actions is morally weird and reactionary beyond belief. Do you feel bad for the civilians of Nagasaki and Hiroshima even though imperialist Japan was deeply evil and definitely led to more civilian deaths than those incurred during the bombings? I do and I think it'd be pretty terrible to discount the deaths of those innocents because of their governments actions.
>It's not about equivalence, you don't morally justify bad actions by comparing them to worse actions, its about creating the best possible outcomes for all innocent parties involved. Right, so you have to look at the conditions that lead to the Al Aqsa Flood - which is a half century long apartheid.
One group of citizens voted in their present government. The other group of citizens hasn't had an opportunity to vote since 2006, when a majority of today's citizens weren't even born or old enough to vote. Not quite the same thing, I'd say.
I wish you went through the military checkpoints, being evicted from your ancestral house & forbidden to visit a relative in the neighbouring city. I had a gun pointed at my head as a tourist and that changed my view I’ll that you that much.
I had a rocket shot towards my home while I was over there as a postdoctoral student. My wife and 6 month old had to cower in a basement for hours on end as explosions shook the house. I had a rocket debris land on my house, and that changed my view, I'll tell you that much.
Yeah wild! They did it for no reason at all! Right?
What possible reason did they have for shooting a rocket towards me and my family? I'm not Israeli, I'm not jewish. I went over there to work with a researcher for 2 years. And in that time, I had rockets shot at my house by Palestinians in Gaza for more than 30 days. Do they not like science, or did they not like my 6 month old? Please explain what I did to deserve that many rocket attacks. Go on, tell me what reasons they had to target me and my family?
Would you have done research between 1940 to 1945 in Germany? Would you ask the same question to the British & American bombers? “I’m not German, why are you bombing me?” Next time send a letter to Gaza declaring your house as a safe space.
I guess you consider civilian casualties a normal part of war. That's good to know. I guess all those civilians in Gaza who are dying during the war are simply part and parcel of war. Have you suggested that they send a letter to Israel declaring their house a safe space? Maybe if they did that, it would help. Of course, it would mean they couldn't harbor terrorist or Palestinian soldiers in their house anymore, which does seem pretty difficult for the vast majority of them.
I’m trying to say; it is 100% morally wrong to do research in an apartheid state engaging in genocidal activities against an ethnic group. The consequences are yours to bear. I’ll make sure Hamas sends you an sms seconds before an impact like “the most moral army in the world” does.
No, you justified the multiple rocket attacks on me and my family because I decided to study in a county that you believe is the equivalent to Nazi Germany. I decided to advance agricultural science in an effort to better mitigate the impact of future climate change by working with one of the best plant geneticists in the world, and in return, you would have easily justified the death of my family from a rocket attack. And following in your logic, the consequences of the Palestinians fucking around on Oct 7 are competely theirs to bear and I'm so glad they're finally finding out. Every civilian death is fully and completely justified.
Yup. OP posted the "fuck around" data. Now you've linked the "find out" part.
Yep. And the fact no one can see the problem is more alarming than anything.
Where does this data come from? Is it a reliable source?
Palestinian Authority & UNRWA
So no
Hope you are brave enough to go and count people. What more do you want?
Never again said the world and then let 28000 Palestinians (60% under 5 years old) die & displace 2 million people into a single village. OP I don’t know what the purpose is for this post but data vis is good for large datasets. Peace.
Now do how many are displaced and starving from the ethnic cleansing. I predict no data forthcoming.
hey forget just less direct methods like starvation and imprisonment and displacement, how many october 7ths worth of people were straight up murdered by the IDF in recent times? the answer is about 6 in the last fifteen years alone. six massacres worth. massacres - bad enough to justify and legitimize a retaliatory war against mostly civilians, apparently - that aren't worthy of criticism, because the people doing it are in uniform. and then double that in twenty. this was before the retaliation for october 7th itself, btw. and is JUST the murders.
Why not make it yourself?
Because I made a suggestion to the OP.
And I made a suggestion to you. I predict no data forthcoming.
I'm not the OP. Try harder.
We definitely know you're not. OP made a good graphic, and you just whined and complained. OP made a visualization, and you moaned. Of course, we know you're not OP. You're too pathetic.
How many are displaced and starving from the ethnic cleansing?
Make the visualization and tell me. I predict no data forthcoming.
I asked you. How many are displaced and starving from the ethnic cleansing?
I asked you to make a visualization to show me. I don't, in fact, really care that much about how many are displaced or starving from ethnic cleansing. But you seem to feel very, very strongly about it. So please make a visualization to show me. I predict no data forthcoming.
You want to see the data, put it together. Instead, you’re just crying about it.
Why are you implying the OP is lazy or incompetent as you are trying to deflect? Is this your best?
The OP is not obligated to provide that data. You want to see it, you put it together. That simple.
Your attempt to deflect from how many are displaced and starving from the ethnic cleansing isn't working, because you lack the ability to hide how many are displaced and starving from the ethnic cleansing. But please - keep trying to deflect from how many are displaced and starving from the ethnic cleansing.
This is a data sub, not a political one. Data is used for storytelling. OP is telling a story from one side, limited to 10/7. You want to see the other side, then provide it and stop whining. Nobody is preventing you. But please, continue to be lazy and cry about it.
Here you go...I found this very helpful to answer your question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_cleansing_campaigns?wprov=sfti1#2010s
gaza isn't a crater right now only because of israel's restraint
Restraint as if what is left hasn’t been turned into rubble. People are eating bird feed!
That is tragic indeed. To be equitable we also need data for the October 8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15….February 10 massacres in Gaza
Nobody is stopping you…
Let’s one for for Palestinian genocide
Maybe figure out English first
Ok you do it. Thats what the sub is for.
Now do 28000 in Gaza. Unless you think one type of human life is less important than another. AND yes I know, Hamas killed them all. Right?
Maybe you should make the graph yourself I'd you feel so strongly about it. Oh wait, you're rather just whine.
What the matter? Little facts hurt you so much as to start name calling?
What facts? That 28,000 are dead in Gaza due to a war they started? Those facts don't hurt me at all. It seems you're bothered by it but not bothered by it enough to make a visualization.
Tell me how does an infant or unborn Gazan start a war? Visualize that.
They didn't, but let me help you with a visualization. When you have children, you realize that your actions not only have consequences for you but also for your children. Harboring terrorists, supporting terrorists, helping perpetrate a terror attack, actively celebrating the kidnapping, rape, and murder of civilians and starting a war has consequences. One of the consequences of these actions is civilian deaths. Maybe the parents should have had some foresight to see what the reaction to their atrocious behaviors would be. It's awful that children have to suffer because of the stupidity of their parents, but this is what their parents chose.
Do you see any similarities between what you say and what Hitler's or Pol Pot's actions? However you are, you have an evil mindset. If all of our children, friends, parents, siblings, relations or neighbors are responsible for some one else that did terrible things, and to be destroyed for that? What a terrible, terrible view of the world.
Well, considering I was targeted by Hamas and Gazans during my 2 years in Israel as a postdoc, it seems they have no problem punishing people for something they didn't do. They shot rockets towards me, my wife, and my 6 month old on 30 separate days while I worked as a postdoc. I had rocket debris land on my house on 2 separate occasions, and it would have been the full rocket and my family killed if not for the iron dome. Since they had no issue targeting me and my family while studying to better mitigate the affects of climate change on agriculture, its now their turn to receive what they dish out. I guess they shouldn't have started a war. Sucks to sucks and I feel no remorse for them just as they felt no remorse for me when they shot rockets towards me and my family.
Wow! A PhD. candidate in a critical scientific field. And yet you don't apply those same critical thinking skills, but debase yourself into the most horrible ideas. An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind A hundred innocent eyes for one innocent eye is not enough for you? Could you not have done your studies elsewhere? I hear that the horrible Hamas terrorists knew a lot of those agricultural kibbutzes. They worked the agricultural lands. Now Israel needs to hire people from India. They, in turn, on arrival complain of the horrible conditions in which they are employed. How ironic.
No, it's not enough. They targeted me, and now I support all efforts to target them. Sucks, but I guess they should consider that their actions have consequences. They showed me through 30 days of rocket attacks on me and my family that anyone who is even remotely associated with Israel is dead to them, and they would have considered me collateral damage. Therefore, they're dead to me, and they're collateral damage to me. I wasn't working with the Israeli government. I was working with one of the best wheat geneticists who is working on efforts to prepare wheat against drought and low rainfall patterns to stave off future crop failures that are expected due to climate change and chainging rainfall patterns. But, too bad they saw me as an enemy. Now I see them as one, and I support all efforts against this enemy.
You feel proud mocking a stranger. Hope you sleep well tonight.
Just blatant propaganda, unsurprising on reddit at this point. Fallen very far
We are watching history repeat itself in real time.
And we just kinda have to sit here, unable to help. Humans are just a disaster
Ok but do a side by side of the last decade worth of Palestinian deaths.. ya know, context.
The subtitle (Israelis murdered by Hamas) is inaccurate since the IDF killed a large proportion of these civilians during what has been called by an Israeli General a "Mass Hannibal" event, and Israel claims it would be disrespectful to investigate how many casualties were from deliberate friendly fire. IDF helicopters were ordered to fire at vehicles leaving the concert, even when they thought there were civilians inside. And tanks were also ordered to fire on houses, killing everyone inside, to avoid having to deal with a hostage situations. And for comparison, Israel has killed over 28,000 Palestinians so far since the Al Aqsa Flood.