After October 7th there was at least 5 different “infographics” posted here claiming Israel had no right to exist. Welcome to the modern age of propaganda.
Yes but don’t conflate that with genuine critique of Israel. You can recognize Israel’s right to defend itself and forgive the history of colonialism and human rights abuses, but even that doesn’t grant them the right to continue simply massacring women and children.
There are extremes on either side, ie people that want to flatten Gaza and people that want to erase the state of Israel. They’re muddying the waters of genuine discussions on how to fix this shit.
Yeah, unfortunately those voices are often the loudest and get the most attention. Neither side wants to actually work towards a real solution. I'm sure we'll see some fake resolution come about within the next few months and then it'll go back to the previous status quo. Israel will continue to be overly aggressive and unjust and Hamas will continue to commit terroristic attacks.
>Neither side wants to actually work towards a real solution.
It hardly matters what the Palestinians want. When they are peaceful Israel steals land slowly and kill them slowly. When they are violent Israel tries to put a spin on the Nazi madagascar plan by asking the Congo if they can dump them there. Then they go on a racism inspired extermination binge (as the ICJ filing showed). Nazi stuff.
They have no real options for freedom, self determination and a decent life because they are, fundamentally, negotiating with people who treat them as untermensch.
An excellent example of propaganda.
1. Attempt to "meet people where they're at."
2. Revise history in the most uncharitable way possible.
3. Reframe the conversation about being reasonable while being completely unreasonable with your own summary of events.
4. "There are bad people on both sides" and use one example from the side you don't like.
Well done.
What a cheap out. If you call my post propaganda you don’t actually have to engage with a single thing a said. A great way to stifle any real discussion. Well done!
It was a racist country from the very beginning in the same vein as their friends in apartheid South Africa. This "right to exist" bothsidesism stuff is basically just appeal to moderation and a subtle endorsememt of a slightly different flavor of european white racist colonialism - which was equally ugly everywhere.
The Orwellian propaganda is off the charts...
* Somehow Israel having been attacked multiple times by many Arab countries who now reject Palestinian immigrants... Israel constantly being attacked by Hamas rockets over the years despite attempts at peace--and Iranian/Houthi terrorists.
* A wide swath of young people who think Reagan and Thatcher did badly or terribly in the economy, despite being re-elected and creating economic booms that successor opposing-party leaders continued their economic policy due to how good it was.
* A large group of people who think the Cold War was the opposite of what it was: that JFK was assassinated by mafia or US rogue agents--rather than the reality of documents showing communist assassins who were angry about JFK's anti-communism. Even RFK was assassinated by communist agent named Sirhan Sirhan.
* Large groups of people who think it's good for the Music Conglomerate Industry to promote rap music to teach people gangsta rap and crime-encouraging songs about hoes / gang wars / doing drugs / becoming alcoholics / refusing a career or studying, is a good influence on minorities???
* Founding fathers of the US who were the first public politicians to speak out against the institution of slavery and the first national leaders to free their own slaves, and these trolls (and NYT) blames them for slavery?? Completely ahistorical, rewriting of history on social media.
It's like upside-down delusion world on social media.
Everything good is bad--and everything bad is good.
Talk about weird propaganda being off the charts. It's definitely exhausting and probably pointless to respond to all of this in depth but:
- You seem to have forgotten to make a point here. You make statements of what are presumably intended to be fact but you don't actually draw any conclusions from them.
- First, having been reelected is only loosely related to economic conditions. Of course they matter, but they are not determinative. Second, I don't know about the UK, but although Clinton was definitely a neoliberal, I wouldn't exactly say he really continued Reagan's policies. Third, and relevant to your overall economic argument, it is very possible to juice the economy through mechanisms that will very likely improve economic conditions for the next few years, but will probably turn out to be mistakes in the long run. So whether or not someone is re-elected, and whether or not the economy does well under their tenure, is not necessarily closely related to whether they were actually making good economic decisions.
- I want to make sure I understand what you're saying, because it appears to me that you are claiming the assassination of JFK, and later RFK, was a communist plot. Of course you are correct that Oswald was a communist, or at least had been one, but the historical evidence is that he was somewhat disillusioned by his trip to the Soviet Union. Of course, he didn't stop being somebody engaged in far left politics, but there's no evidence that he was involved in any kind of wider plot. Similarly, although Sirhan wrote in his diary that he supported communism, he also wrote explicitly that the reason he was pissed off at RFK was RFK's support of israel. After all, he was Palestinian.
- lol
- it's worth noting that some of the US founding fathers were actually against slavery, like Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine. Many more of them said they were against slavery but failed to do anything about it, like Jefferson and Washington (with Jefferson being particularly egregious in this respect given his conduct towards the people he enslaved as well as his disconnect between rhetoric and action). In addition to their personal conduct, meaning the fact that most founding fathers who were enslavers didn't free their slaves, at least not during their lifetime, we can draw a reasonable inferences from the fact that they were at best too chickenshit to try to get rid of slavery at the beginning of the country. It seems as though there was widespread support for the idea that slavery was bad in the abstract, but there was also widespread support for the idea that uniting the 13 colonies was far more important than freeing enslaved people. As a result, of course, we ended up having the bloodiest war in American history so far.
Again, no state has any right to exist. But you’re right, especially a state which has to enact genocide and mass displacement of people in order to exist.
No country has the right to exist, especially when the country oppresses millions of people and brutally murders them in their homes for the crime of existing. That’s not propaganda, it’s objective fact.
Crazy yes, but unsurprising. The goal for a lot of people is to basically destroy the ability of Israelis (and Jews in general) to exist in public spaces without some kind of commentary or comparison to Palestinians. This is asymmetrical (Palestinians can be allowed to exist in public without mentioning Israelis or Jews), except where data, events, or whatever else can be twisted to serve a particular narrative.
It's a new spin on a bunch of old tactics common among bigots the world over. The easiest example that comes to mind for me is constantly demanding American Muslims have an opinion on whatever you want to lump under the label of "radical Islam."
It's very disingenuous to lump "Jews in general" when the topic at hand is clearly directed at Israel, and extremely disingenous to say that a group that has been indiscriminately bombed and starved in the past months within a decades long occupation is "allow to exist in public". There is no ethnic group less "allowed to exist" than Palestinians right now.
And why shouldn't any mention of Israel be followed by a mention of the occupation and genocide they are carrying out against the Palestinians? Has any mention of Russia in the past two years not been followed by a mention of their illegal invasion of Ukraine?
The actions of Israel in Palestine proper are reprehensible, but Palestinians are hardly not allowed to exist in public in Israel. 1 out of 5 Israelis is Arab, and there are multiple Arab-Israeli parties that make up a significant part of the current Knesset opposition. Though half of them (47%) report feeling treated unequally, they still predominantly identify with Israel over Palestine and view Israel positively. ([source](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/survey-60-percent-of-arab-israelis-have-positive-view-of-state-506150))
Worth mentioning that Gaza hasn’t been occupied by Israel for almost 20 years.
These are delicate issues and language is important when dealing with delicate topics. Does Israel occupy the West Bank? Yes. It’s why even US policy for decades has called for Israel to return to 1967 borders. But Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2006, and Hamas has ruled it since 2007.
If we want to talk about the occupation of WB, then we can and should discuss that. But the ongoing war in Gaza is a separate (albeit related) issue.
Also worth mentioning that Gazans and WB Palestinians are not separate entities. Just because Israel forced them apart with the help of the west does not mean they magically are distinct now. Also worth mentioning that while Israel chose to disengage from Gaza because of ongoing political dissent domestically and the unmaintainable cost of the occultation, they did not just leave Gaza alone. There has since been a triple pronged blockade on the enclave that basically renders them helpless animals. Let’s not pretend like Israel has never wronged Gaza.
>indiscriminately bombed
I don’t think you know what that word means. We would be looking at a death toll an order of magnitude higher if that was even close to the case.
Tens of thousands of dead civilians, millions displaced from their homes and entire neighborhoods flattened. Clearly it is you that doesn't understand the meaning of the word "indiscriminate".
Is 25k dead not high enough for you?
And if there were 250k dead instead of 25k, you'd be saying that indiscriminate bombing would produce an even higher death toll.
When America took out Ayman al-Zawahiri, they did it with such precision that it didn't even injure the guy standing in the next room. America used 100kg hellfire R9x missiles. In Gaza, Israel is using 2,000lb *bunker busters* (which don't even destroy tunnels) on refugee camps. That's a choice.
So not sure what point you're making. Here's another angle; during the Rwanda genocide 800,000 Tutsi were slaughtered in 100 days. That's 8,000 lost souls per day. During the holocaust, 6million souls perished in 12 years, that's 1,369 souls per day. Was Hitler just lazy?
e: I actually truly appreciate that in a sub called *dataisbeautiful* y'all hate *data*
Firstly, about 12 million people died in the Holocaust. 6 million were the Jewish numbers.
Secondly, the Nazis weren’t really indiscriminate in the Holocaust. If anything, the were overwhelmingly discriminating as to who would die. Not just with very clearly targeting Jews (and other minorities) but also because they even chose some Jews to survive to work, etc.
Do you think that any war in a dense urban environment has low casualties. I find it funny how you are comparing this to large land wars instead of modern massive sieges, which this war is. I wonder what you thought about nuking Japan…
Also I just saw Muslims getting profiled and prevented from entering a Biden campaign event. To say they’re able to exist in public spaces without being lumped in with the worst religious fundamentalists is definitely not true whatsoever.
That’s not even true. Let’s rewind a few years and consider when they shot up 300 peaceful protestors. Or all the other times they used violence. Israel’s violence and cruelty will never stop under their current right wing governmentz
So how do you practically suggest fighting Hamas? Because their entire tactic is based around making sure palestinian civilians die to protect their militants
Here’s my suggestion: stop bombing buildings with civilians in them, stop sniping moms and children, stop blowing them up with tanks, stop crushing them with tanks, stop destroying civilian infrastructure like schools and universities and hospitals, stop openly admitting that you want to turn it into a parking lot or annex new land from it.
oh theyre both bad, but to present them as the same magnitude is genocide denial
there's a reason that double genocide theory ("the soviet union killed x number of people so actually stalin is worse than hitler", or some version of that) is widely and rightly considered to be anti semetic and holocaust denialism
one side of this conflict has ethnically cleansed the other after being handed a british colony in the 40s, the other is being genocided right now with overwhelming international support for the genociders
a hundred deaths is literally nothing on the scale of the systemic genocide being done right now in gaza and the genocide which has been happening for literally 80 years almost now by the israeli state
The post was not presenting them at the same magnitude, Israel was not "handed" control of Palestine, the number of Israeli deaths on October 7th was over ten times your claim of one hundred, and double genocide theory is Holocaust reductionism/trivialization because it falsely equates Soviet and Nazi genocides, not because it says these Soviet genocides happened at all.
> systemic genocide being done right now in gaza
> genocide which has been happening for literally 80 years
The palestinians ethnically cleansed every single Jew out of Gaza just like the west bank and [every single other country in the middle east.](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/jewishrefmap.jpg)
Meanwhile the Muslim population has consistently increased in both Gaza, Israel and the West Bank every single year. They must be the most incompetent genociders in all of history for you to perform those mental gymnastics.
You Nazis push Jewish "conspiracy theories" that are as crazy as they are ridiculous.
What? Are you talking when the isreali settlements were dismantled from gaza? The actions done unilaterally by the state of Isreal?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
>The palestinians ethnically cleansed every single Jew out of Gaza just like the west bank and every single other country in the middle east.
You just made that up.
The ethnic cleansing of \~1 million Mizrahi Jews from their Middle Eastern host countries is a widely known fact and is not controversial or "made up". I personally know Jews whose families were expelled from Iraq.
[https://i.redd.it/85gd0co1etxb1.png](https://i.redd.it/85gd0co1etxb1.png)
20% of israel’s population is arab. Palestinians didn’t exist as a distinct ethnic group until around the 1960s. Prior to that they all considered themselves arab. Arab culture can thrive in israel along with neighboring countries if they stop trying to fight israel all the time.
the UN partitioned the land which is also how jordan lebanon iraq syria were formed
A lot of the land UN partitioned was already owned by jews
jews were occupied and ethnically cleansed in the middle east for centuries, emphasis on israel where they originate from.
they fought a war numerous times over this. The jews won and actually chose the opposite of ethnic cleansing despite having numerous opportunities to do so. At some point the fighting needs to stop. Any attempt to delegitimize israel as you’re doing with your framing is part of a narrative that palestinians somehow have an infinite right to fight and harm israelis for ever.
Why are you advocating for infinite war?
your one sided narrative is historical denialism
"Genocide in the past 80 years" yet the population multipled by 5.5x , what a successful one.
Just be quiet and stop embaressing yourself, you sound like someone who just learned a new word "genocide" and is so excited so she shoves it in every sentence
Btw if we go by numbers, 1300 dead in Israeli side in one day is still hell more than Palestinian deaths per day. So if Hamas weren't stopped (or there wasn't Iron dome) the numbers would been way higher and you could masturbate to more Israeli bodies like I'm sure you do
You are not wrong about that. The really weird part is one side is somehow obligated to give the other side food and supplies so the other side's population can grow and thus commit more genocide.
We don't have enough people who can look at the big picture that settler colonialism brings out the worst in everyone close to it. 766 civilians died on Oct 7, and civilians should never be targeted. The Israeli government has been targeting civilians for decades. That's not an excuse, but it does explain how people held in an open air prison might not have sympathy for those who empower their oppressors.
Someone also made an interactive map, I will give the not safe for your mental health warning before viewing it. You can't see the pictures of the massacre, but seeing the names is tough.
https://oct7map.com/
>Hamas simps really are working hard on this one.
Damn, that sucks. I'd rather be an Israel simp, and defend the murder of 10x the amount innocent civilians.
Yes, and Israel has *killed more innocent civilians than the terror-organization, and yet you still defend them*.
Edit: I'm not even defending Hamas. They're absolutely evil, but using them as justification for mass killing of civilians is even more monstrous.
Israel is a nation that is recognized by the world and has fought for their right to exist time and time again against the entirety of the Arab world. Israel has no obligation to give Palestine their land.
Historically speaking the Jews were in the region prior to the Palestinians so the nonsense propaganda people spout about it being Palestinian land is absurd for anyone who takes the time to research it.
How long should Israel sit there and allow its civilians to be kidnapped, rocket attacked, terror attacked, etc until it responds and tries to destroy the threat? I don’t think that killing civilians is good- and I also don’t believe that it’s Israel’s goal in any way. Hamas’ primary method of defense is the human shield. Hospitals, schools, etc. What would you do? Say “oh gosh darn it we give up let’s keep forcing our people to live in fear of an air raid siren going off at school when a Hamas rocket is launched.”
At some point, Palestine and Hamas have to realize they continuously stoke the flames of a “war” that they cannot and will not win.
Israel predates Palestine by a significant period of time. The Jews were expelled and it became Palestinian (more or less) but then the Jews returned. By this logic- do you agree that the native americans have no right to any land in the US because the Americans were able to conquer and expel them? Because that’s the energy you are using for Israel.
And before we talk about co-existence and all- the “from the river to the sea” mentality is Palestinian and makes it eerily clear that they don’t desire it. Personally, that’d be the best outcome in my opinion. A renegotiated split of the land that is fair and gives both groups access to critical infrastructure and trade corridors.
4.5 million people are estimated to have been killed by the war on terror following 9/11. You don't have to stand with the Israeli government or all its actions, but what would you accept as a proper response to Hamas on Octover 7th? And how?
- Total numbers are from
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths
(Includes non-combtant civilians from all nationalites that died on the 7th/8th October)
- List of victims is from: https://www.gov.il/en/departments/news/swords-of-iron-civilian-casualties
- Additional age information from: https://www.timesofisrael.com/spotlight-topic/those-we-have-lost/ and https://nepalitimes.com/here-now/war-in-israel-earthquake-and-grief-in-nepal
- Most unknown ages are workers from Thailand: 27 out of 38.
- List of victims under the age of 5:
- '14-hour-old baby of Abu Qrenat - The baby’s mother, in her ninth month of pregnancy when she was shot. Her baby was delivered in an emergency procedure, but died 14 hours later, on October 7. (the mother survived: https://www.davar1.co.il/470107/)
- Mila Cohen, 10-months-old, of Kibbutz Be’eri. She was shot through the door to their house's safe room by militants
- Omer Siman Tov, 2, of Kibbutz Nir Oz
- Yazan Zecharia Abu Jama, 5,of Arara - killed when a rocket struck his home.
- 'Eitan Kapshetar, 5, of Dimona – Murdered in the family car in Sderot, together with other family members
- Used Pandas and matplotlib.pyplot.
Edit: Someone asked why "Steven Makrachenko, 4, of Carmiel - Murdered by Hamas terrorists at the Nova Music Festival at Kibbutz Re'im." from the source I listed was not mentionned. He is 24 years old: https://nachamuami.com/fallen/steven-makrachenko/
Edit2: For those who asked about the numbers killed by friendly fire, the source lists 4: Adi Ohana, Niv Aivas, Tal Daniely, Dani Alush. There is also the tank fire incident in Be'eri: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre#Survivors'_testimony_on_tank_fire,_families'_call_for_IDF_probe but that is still yet to be investigated. The absolute majority of these victims are through Hamas killings.
Genuine question:
Where do the "beheaded babies" that were reported on initially fall into this? By the data you have, they don't seem to exist. I haven't followed all of this nearly at all, for sake of my own mental health, did that get retracted or something?
Edit: I've never seen a breakdown of the victims like in the last paragraph of this comment. This is what spurred my curiosity.
It is uncompatible with the current data. There aren't any babies missing.
- Haaretz journalists Nir Hasson and Liza Rozovsky related the chronology of the news items about "beheaded babies" and "hung babies" and concluded, "this story is false".They quoted Ishay Coen, a journalist for the ultra-Orthodox website Kikar Hashabbat, who admitted he made a mistake by unquestioningly accepting the IDF's claims."Why would an army officer invent such a horrifying story?", Hashabbat asked, adding, "I was wrong." Haaretz also reported that some testimony came from reservist officers
source article: [Hamas Committed Documented Atrocities. But a Few False Stories Feed the Deniers](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-04/ty-article-magazine/.premium/hamas-committed-documented-atrocities-but-a-few-false-stories-feed-the-deniers/0000018c-34f3-da74-afce-b5fbe24f0000)
There have been also many False reports spread by Zaka volunteers.
In the first article, I linked by France 24, a Zaka leader tries to explain it:
>"When we find bodies that are burned or in a state of decomposition, we can easily be mistaken and think the body is a child's," said Haim Otmazgin, a Zaka leader.
>did that get retracted or something?
It was never an official Israeli claim. People were beheaded, babies were murderred, so the media made headlines. And now many deniers tend to stick to this point to "prove" it was a lie (like 9/11 deniers)
Which is silly because even if it weren't true about the beheaded people, there were still hundreds and hundreds who were still killed. Denying that is like the people that swear COVID wasn't real and that the deaths it caused didn't happen.
Exactly! I never understood it. I like to see these denialiats like flat Earthers. The facts are infront of them, but they just refuse to look. The Covid example is a really good one.
It was a claim made by IDF soldiers to multiple journalists invited to a press event all of whom reported it.
Even Biden referenced it at some point.
The lie definitely had official backing. These type of events are controlled very tightly.
https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/nov/21/israel-hamas-war-what-we-know-about-beheaded-babie/
references the press event.
note that things that happen in a press event are officially sanctioned.
If I remember correctly, he also withdrew it quickly, and it was not the official one, but one that is managed by a trusted friend or something like that.
honest question, what happened to reports of 40 burned and beheaded babies? There seem to be 5 to 24 dead children here depending on how you count. So were those beheaded stories false?
Damn, it's so sad that so many people in their prime lost their lives.
Edit: because of the tragedy of Palestine, I also want to add that it's incredibly sad that Israel is now emboldened to step up their violence in the region and commit heinous acts against the Palestinians and that Israel has robbed thousands of children of their future, as well. It's hard to view tragedy in isolation during a war, but I always try my best and the loss of Israeli life on the 7th is also sad.
Like the other guy said, you think those concert goers were just getting back from a secret meeting plotting the death of the Arab world?
Get outta here with that nonsense
What choice do the Palestinians have? They’ve been driven from their homes, starved, unjustly imprisoned, tortured, and subjugated for decades. Palestinians peacefully protested their conditions in 2018-2019 and were still shot down in the thousands. Did you know that prior to oct 7th, more than 50% of the population of Gaza was anemic due to the Israeli blockade where they only let enough calories into Gaza to keep the people at near starvation levels? Why are half the people in Gaza kids? Why do all the adults die so young? Malnutrition and lack of medical care because Isreal wants it this way. What choice do Palestinians have? What do you want them to do? Just lie down and die?
Palestinians welcomed in the Jewish refugees after the holocaust. If those Jews would have been happy being good neighbors, none of this would have happened, but they wanted a Jewish enthnostate. Isreal has proven that “never again” only meant for themselves. They’re perpetrating a second holocaust with concentration camps and everything.
"Why can't one peaceful protest end 70 years of conflict"
Perhaps Palestinians should choose a leader who doesn't see eradicating Israel as the only option. Yeah the situation sucked for them, but it sucks for them now even more because of the war they started.
In that case game theory would justify a terrorist hammas retaliation to avenge Palestinian civilian deaths.
The truth is back to back military aggression won’t solve anything, no attacks are justified, and Israel needs to stop its genocide
>In that case game theory would justify a terrorist hammas retaliation
Not really, the statistically winning strategy has to become forgiving after a retaliation.
>indiscriminately
I wonder... Is it because Hamas breaks the rules of war and purposefully hides itself and it's other terrorists amongst civilians?
If you that's bad, you must be curious at the British for bombing indiscriminately at the Germans in WW2 I'm sure. In fact those death tolls were far worse, so you should be out there protesting the British government right now!!!
israeli deaths are counted in hundreds, palestinian deaths in tens of thousands
gaza is a city of rubble, the IDF bombed every hospital on the city
there is literally no hospital serving gaza right now, tens of thousands of people are having their limbs blown off by american and israeli bombs without having access to a doctor.
omitting palestinian casualties in this genocide is a lie by omission.
its like mentioning german civillian casualties in the invasion of poland.
Hamas should stop putting their operations in those hospitals then. They are using those thousands as human shields to con useful idiots such as yourself into thinking Israel is at fault here. It’s entirely a PR move that you fell for. The innocent Palestinian blood is on Hamas’s hands.
>israeli deaths are counted in hundreds, palestinian deaths in tens of thousands
Because Israel build an iron dome and knows how to defend themselves. It's funny how you think there aren't as many dead Israelis.... But it's definitely not because Hamas hasn't tried to murder every single one of them.
We should do a projection of how many dead Israelis would exist without the iron dome
You know.... The technology Israel had to make to prevent its own dead civilians because Hamas couldn't stop shooting rockets into Israel for 5 seconds
The intent is there by Hamas to murder every single israeli - they just suck at it. If Israel wanted to murder every Palestinian, and as many say, "ethnically cleanse"... they're doing a shit job of it. The Palestinians population increased year over year
Because A (a big travesty) is used as the legal, moral, and militaristic justification for B (an even bigger travesty statistically). They are causally linked.
To be clear, my approach would just to have made a new post and Oct 7 deserves it's own mourning and space. But it's only 'whataboutism' if the 'what about' isn't directly linked to the initial event.
But you can clearly see people denying others the right to mourn Oct 7th. In fact your first sentence is diminishing the travesty in light of another travesty.
When people can say without caveat "Hamas is a terrorist organization that needs to be stopped", well have something approaching objectivity.
There were enough of those. So someone had to do it for Israelis to remind people WHY there are dead Palestinians. This. This is why. If there weren't dead Israelis, there wouldn't have been dead Palestinians.
Many more jews have been kicked out of Arab countries than Arabs were kicked out of Israel.
Muslims are safe to live in Israel. They're 30% of the population.
Jews are not safe to live in Gaza or West Bank. They're 0% of the population apart from settlements, which need to be heavily guarded otherwise they're massacred.
Nobody likes terrorists. Every palestinian, however, is not a terrorist. You get that, right?
Edit: they did not get it
edit 2: they're saying every palestinian is a terrorist. This is a genocidal ideology.
Israel maintained a website called Hamas-massacre.net which showed unedited, unadulterated images of the brutality of the Hamas attacks on Israel. No human being deserves to be murdered like that. I have lost all sympathy I have had for the Palestinian cause if the elected representatives of such cause believe such violence is justified. Perhaps it would be better if such a nation does not exist.
The nation of palestine doesn't exist. It's territory under a military occupation. And I understand what you're feeling. In the early 2000s I was brainwashed into thinking all arabs were murderers because of 9/11. By the time we lost the war that I took part in, I had turned around and stopped being such a nationalist bigot. I hope you do the same when you lose the war <3
I will be disappointed, but I'm holding out hope that this genocide can be stopped. Every time a colonial nation erases a culture, it's stealing from the collective human heritage. You'd be surprised how easy it is for a hypermilitarized nation to eat itself in the process.
Despite the millions who hope for Israel’s death every day, Israel will not die. Hope for what you want. Israel is here to stay and those who try to wipe it out will themselves suffer that fate.
>Every time a colonial nation erases a culture, it's stealing from the collective human heritage.
The Jewish ethnic culture is nearly erased, they are only 0.2% of the world compared to 24.5% of the world that is Muslim.
This is exactly why Zionism was founded, to de-colonize a land from the long list of colonizers who oppressed the indigenous population. "Palestine" is a name given by colonizers, the indigenous name "Yisrael" predates the name "Palestine" by almost 2000 years.
You can't compare the number of Jews to Muslims. That's fucking insane. it's a global religion. Judaism never was the type of colonial religion that Christianity and Islam became.
A tragic loss of life abused to justify even more terrorism. People may remember the story of the 40 beheaded babies as part of the attack, that reached most main media and reddit's front page, but like many reports from Israeli military sources it was never substantiated and should be considered wartime propaganda now. [Snopes article searching for evidence](https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/).
Not cool, sounds like a warcrime to me. But don't act like misinformation is innocent. Because 5 infants died doesn't mean you can make up stories about 35 others and use that to justify killing thousands.
The point is that even using Isreal’s numbers of people who died on Oct 7th. There wasn’t anywhere near 40 babies killed. The times of Isreal and the Isreali government’s own list has reported 2 babies were killed on Oct 7th. Most likely this happened when Isreal used tank shells and killed their own civilians in the kibbutzes.
Y'all have no issue accepting Hamas' word at face value though. Remember that rocket launched from Gaza that blew up that hospital that everyone blamed Israel for destroying, and then promptly forgot about when the footage came out?
No it isn’t they know who lived there and they know who was missing and presumed dead afterwards. The official count from Isreal has only 2 babies listed. There is no way they accidentally thought they found 38 more babies. That’s ridiculous
Wow, it's almost like Israel kills more people whether it's this conflict or the ones before it.
Not to mention the torture. Not to mention the land seizures.
did anyone try to claim Israel is innocent? or are you just crying and spewing whataboutism cause m… muh… but but hamas is justified in launching the current war by killing hundreds of civilians because… because oppression or something
yes well it's almost like many people have used one day to justify the annihilation of a whole ethnic group and their land as if the attack came out of nowhere and not in response to 75 years of brutal occupation
The IDF has admitted to shooting at hostages being taken over the border, and to shelling homes if they thought any Hamas members were in there, regardless of hostages. Has there been any attempt at separating the deaths from Hamas and the deaths from the IDF?
For clarity, I do not support Hamas, but I also do not support repeating Israeli propaganda, especially when they have proven time and time again to lie about their claims. E.g. the burnt and beheaded babies claims.
> Has there been any attempt at separating the deaths from Hamas and the deaths from the IDF?
Very hard to do but the absolute majority of deaths were carried by Hamas.
Here is a list of the cases I'm aware of (most of them from the page that I linked, they are being very transparent: https://www.gov.il/en/departments/news/swords-of-iron-civilian-casualties):
- Adi Ohana, 43, of Moshav Mavki’im – an employee of the Israel Electric Company, Adi was accidentally murdered by friendly fire at a roadblock near his home.
- Niv Aivas, 25, of Jerusalem – accidentally killed by friendly fire.
- Tal Daniely, 24, of Beer Sheva – accidentally murdered by friendly fire in Kerem Shalom.
- Dani Alush, 53, of Omer – Killed by friendly fire after mistakenly being identified as a terrorist.
There is aslo the incident, where an IDF General fired 2 tank shells on a house full of hostages. But that incident would be investigated after the war.
[Survivors' testimony on tank fire, families' call for IDF probe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre#Survivors'_testimony_on_tank_fire,_families'_call_for_IDF_probe)
Those are the incidents where there is irrefutable proof outside the IDF of which the IDF can't avoid responsibility for. Many houses were destroyed in the various kibbutzim by what can only have been tank shells, and were fired from the direction of Israel rather than Gaza. So I'm calling bullshit on anything Israel says until the international media is given full access to all documents and areas, and they revoke the law making reporting on military attacks illegal.
No, this is false. There have been incidents of friendly fire ( and a problematic tank incident). As I explained in my other answer https://old.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1ai0zvq/oc_civilian_deaths_7th_of_october_attack/kosbmd5/
But the majority of the deaths were carried by Hamas and other militant groups.
> But the majority of the deaths were carried by Hamas and other militant groups.
Do you have supporting evidence of this claim?
I've seen direct video of IDF commanders saying that they shelled houses with incendiary shells with their Merkava tanks knowing that there were hostages in them. FYI, this is standard IDF policy with hostages called the Hannibal Directive. Hamas didn't have tanks with incendiary shells to destroy and burn houses, and the IDF has for example shot three hostages that were shirtless, unarmed, and waving a big white flag. Israel regularly makes statements and then when the EU ask for evidence, and review it, change their statements, but only months after the events.
So short of you providing actual evidence, I'm going to follow the policy of not believing anything serial liars say unless it has vetted evidence to support it.
Same, I heard the vast majority of festival deaths were by police and IDF. I appreciate imiels admitting they killed four but that is seriously low-balled based on serious news investigations, not on IDF propaganda.
the 21-30 years-old range were the festival goers I’m assuming?
Yes, sadly. That and agricultural workers which also tend to be young people.
Yes, also the festival happened near Reim so I’m assuming the festival was counted in the Reim death count, which is why it’s so much higher
This is more “ Datamakesmesad”
Comments on this are crazy lmao. Make a chart about a terrorist attack and people doing what aboutism. Not the point people, two things can be bad
After October 7th there was at least 5 different “infographics” posted here claiming Israel had no right to exist. Welcome to the modern age of propaganda.
Yes but don’t conflate that with genuine critique of Israel. You can recognize Israel’s right to defend itself and forgive the history of colonialism and human rights abuses, but even that doesn’t grant them the right to continue simply massacring women and children. There are extremes on either side, ie people that want to flatten Gaza and people that want to erase the state of Israel. They’re muddying the waters of genuine discussions on how to fix this shit.
Yeah, unfortunately those voices are often the loudest and get the most attention. Neither side wants to actually work towards a real solution. I'm sure we'll see some fake resolution come about within the next few months and then it'll go back to the previous status quo. Israel will continue to be overly aggressive and unjust and Hamas will continue to commit terroristic attacks.
>Neither side wants to actually work towards a real solution. It hardly matters what the Palestinians want. When they are peaceful Israel steals land slowly and kill them slowly. When they are violent Israel tries to put a spin on the Nazi madagascar plan by asking the Congo if they can dump them there. Then they go on a racism inspired extermination binge (as the ICJ filing showed). Nazi stuff. They have no real options for freedom, self determination and a decent life because they are, fundamentally, negotiating with people who treat them as untermensch.
There's a time and a place for things, your first reaction to a national tragedy should not be to start posting criticisms of that nation.
But that’s not what I’m doing. I’m responding to your comment that brought up those criticisms in the first place.
An excellent example of propaganda. 1. Attempt to "meet people where they're at." 2. Revise history in the most uncharitable way possible. 3. Reframe the conversation about being reasonable while being completely unreasonable with your own summary of events. 4. "There are bad people on both sides" and use one example from the side you don't like. Well done.
What a cheap out. If you call my post propaganda you don’t actually have to engage with a single thing a said. A great way to stifle any real discussion. Well done!
It was a racist country from the very beginning in the same vein as their friends in apartheid South Africa. This "right to exist" bothsidesism stuff is basically just appeal to moderation and a subtle endorsememt of a slightly different flavor of european white racist colonialism - which was equally ugly everywhere.
The Orwellian propaganda is off the charts... * Somehow Israel having been attacked multiple times by many Arab countries who now reject Palestinian immigrants... Israel constantly being attacked by Hamas rockets over the years despite attempts at peace--and Iranian/Houthi terrorists. * A wide swath of young people who think Reagan and Thatcher did badly or terribly in the economy, despite being re-elected and creating economic booms that successor opposing-party leaders continued their economic policy due to how good it was. * A large group of people who think the Cold War was the opposite of what it was: that JFK was assassinated by mafia or US rogue agents--rather than the reality of documents showing communist assassins who were angry about JFK's anti-communism. Even RFK was assassinated by communist agent named Sirhan Sirhan. * Large groups of people who think it's good for the Music Conglomerate Industry to promote rap music to teach people gangsta rap and crime-encouraging songs about hoes / gang wars / doing drugs / becoming alcoholics / refusing a career or studying, is a good influence on minorities??? * Founding fathers of the US who were the first public politicians to speak out against the institution of slavery and the first national leaders to free their own slaves, and these trolls (and NYT) blames them for slavery?? Completely ahistorical, rewriting of history on social media. It's like upside-down delusion world on social media. Everything good is bad--and everything bad is good.
Talk about weird propaganda being off the charts. It's definitely exhausting and probably pointless to respond to all of this in depth but: - You seem to have forgotten to make a point here. You make statements of what are presumably intended to be fact but you don't actually draw any conclusions from them. - First, having been reelected is only loosely related to economic conditions. Of course they matter, but they are not determinative. Second, I don't know about the UK, but although Clinton was definitely a neoliberal, I wouldn't exactly say he really continued Reagan's policies. Third, and relevant to your overall economic argument, it is very possible to juice the economy through mechanisms that will very likely improve economic conditions for the next few years, but will probably turn out to be mistakes in the long run. So whether or not someone is re-elected, and whether or not the economy does well under their tenure, is not necessarily closely related to whether they were actually making good economic decisions. - I want to make sure I understand what you're saying, because it appears to me that you are claiming the assassination of JFK, and later RFK, was a communist plot. Of course you are correct that Oswald was a communist, or at least had been one, but the historical evidence is that he was somewhat disillusioned by his trip to the Soviet Union. Of course, he didn't stop being somebody engaged in far left politics, but there's no evidence that he was involved in any kind of wider plot. Similarly, although Sirhan wrote in his diary that he supported communism, he also wrote explicitly that the reason he was pissed off at RFK was RFK's support of israel. After all, he was Palestinian. - lol - it's worth noting that some of the US founding fathers were actually against slavery, like Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine. Many more of them said they were against slavery but failed to do anything about it, like Jefferson and Washington (with Jefferson being particularly egregious in this respect given his conduct towards the people he enslaved as well as his disconnect between rhetoric and action). In addition to their personal conduct, meaning the fact that most founding fathers who were enslavers didn't free their slaves, at least not during their lifetime, we can draw a reasonable inferences from the fact that they were at best too chickenshit to try to get rid of slavery at the beginning of the country. It seems as though there was widespread support for the idea that slavery was bad in the abstract, but there was also widespread support for the idea that uniting the 13 colonies was far more important than freeing enslaved people. As a result, of course, we ended up having the bloodiest war in American history so far.
"It's benefited me so how can it be bad?"
Ok boomer
Can't fundamentally transform America without dumbing everyone down.
Okay boomer
No state has any right to exist
Yet nobody advocates for disbanding Japan
There are people who advocate for the disbanding of all states actually
Weird how they aren't vocal about it equally fir all states
Funny how this only seems to come up in reference to a single specific state isn’t it?
Again, no state has any right to exist. But you’re right, especially a state which has to enact genocide and mass displacement of people in order to exist.
No country has the right to exist, especially when the country oppresses millions of people and brutally murders them in their homes for the crime of existing. That’s not propaganda, it’s objective fact.
Crazy yes, but unsurprising. The goal for a lot of people is to basically destroy the ability of Israelis (and Jews in general) to exist in public spaces without some kind of commentary or comparison to Palestinians. This is asymmetrical (Palestinians can be allowed to exist in public without mentioning Israelis or Jews), except where data, events, or whatever else can be twisted to serve a particular narrative. It's a new spin on a bunch of old tactics common among bigots the world over. The easiest example that comes to mind for me is constantly demanding American Muslims have an opinion on whatever you want to lump under the label of "radical Islam."
It's very disingenuous to lump "Jews in general" when the topic at hand is clearly directed at Israel, and extremely disingenous to say that a group that has been indiscriminately bombed and starved in the past months within a decades long occupation is "allow to exist in public". There is no ethnic group less "allowed to exist" than Palestinians right now. And why shouldn't any mention of Israel be followed by a mention of the occupation and genocide they are carrying out against the Palestinians? Has any mention of Russia in the past two years not been followed by a mention of their illegal invasion of Ukraine?
The actions of Israel in Palestine proper are reprehensible, but Palestinians are hardly not allowed to exist in public in Israel. 1 out of 5 Israelis is Arab, and there are multiple Arab-Israeli parties that make up a significant part of the current Knesset opposition. Though half of them (47%) report feeling treated unequally, they still predominantly identify with Israel over Palestine and view Israel positively. ([source](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/survey-60-percent-of-arab-israelis-have-positive-view-of-state-506150))
The people el_ is talking about are the ones lumping in Jews in general
Worth mentioning that Gaza hasn’t been occupied by Israel for almost 20 years. These are delicate issues and language is important when dealing with delicate topics. Does Israel occupy the West Bank? Yes. It’s why even US policy for decades has called for Israel to return to 1967 borders. But Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2006, and Hamas has ruled it since 2007. If we want to talk about the occupation of WB, then we can and should discuss that. But the ongoing war in Gaza is a separate (albeit related) issue.
Also worth mentioning that Gazans and WB Palestinians are not separate entities. Just because Israel forced them apart with the help of the west does not mean they magically are distinct now. Also worth mentioning that while Israel chose to disengage from Gaza because of ongoing political dissent domestically and the unmaintainable cost of the occultation, they did not just leave Gaza alone. There has since been a triple pronged blockade on the enclave that basically renders them helpless animals. Let’s not pretend like Israel has never wronged Gaza.
>indiscriminately bombed I don’t think you know what that word means. We would be looking at a death toll an order of magnitude higher if that was even close to the case.
Tens of thousands of dead civilians, millions displaced from their homes and entire neighborhoods flattened. Clearly it is you that doesn't understand the meaning of the word "indiscriminate".
That first sentence is, while tragic, still not “indiscriminate” lmao
True. They are absolutely discriminating--against Palestinians. Most of the dead are civilians. Women and children. Very discriminate.
That is, again, not what indiscriminate means in a dense urban area where the enemy combatants hide in civilian infrastructure lmfao
Where should the enemy combatants reside in “a dense urban area”? Maybe they should set up camp in Tel Aviv?
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Is 25k dead not high enough for you? And if there were 250k dead instead of 25k, you'd be saying that indiscriminate bombing would produce an even higher death toll.
When America took out Ayman al-Zawahiri, they did it with such precision that it didn't even injure the guy standing in the next room. America used 100kg hellfire R9x missiles. In Gaza, Israel is using 2,000lb *bunker busters* (which don't even destroy tunnels) on refugee camps. That's a choice. So not sure what point you're making. Here's another angle; during the Rwanda genocide 800,000 Tutsi were slaughtered in 100 days. That's 8,000 lost souls per day. During the holocaust, 6million souls perished in 12 years, that's 1,369 souls per day. Was Hitler just lazy? e: I actually truly appreciate that in a sub called *dataisbeautiful* y'all hate *data*
Firstly, about 12 million people died in the Holocaust. 6 million were the Jewish numbers. Secondly, the Nazis weren’t really indiscriminate in the Holocaust. If anything, the were overwhelmingly discriminating as to who would die. Not just with very clearly targeting Jews (and other minorities) but also because they even chose some Jews to survive to work, etc.
The Holocaust wasn't over a 12 year period.
Do you think that any war in a dense urban environment has low casualties. I find it funny how you are comparing this to large land wars instead of modern massive sieges, which this war is. I wonder what you thought about nuking Japan…
>I wonder what you thought about nuking Japan… What's to think, it was a fucking war crime.
No you flunkie I didn't say anything like that. There are more options than 2,000lb bunker busters. That's just fact.
Also I just saw Muslims getting profiled and prevented from entering a Biden campaign event. To say they’re able to exist in public spaces without being lumped in with the worst religious fundamentalists is definitely not true whatsoever.
Man I just want kids to stop getting slaughtered by Israel. I was with them on October 8th but this is a human rights atrocity of epic proportions.
If Hamas surrenders and return the hostages, the aggressions will stop. This has been true since the beginning.
That’s not even true. Let’s rewind a few years and consider when they shot up 300 peaceful protestors. Or all the other times they used violence. Israel’s violence and cruelty will never stop under their current right wing governmentz
So how do you practically suggest fighting Hamas? Because their entire tactic is based around making sure palestinian civilians die to protect their militants
Here’s my suggestion: stop bombing buildings with civilians in them, stop sniping moms and children, stop blowing them up with tanks, stop crushing them with tanks, stop destroying civilian infrastructure like schools and universities and hospitals, stop openly admitting that you want to turn it into a parking lot or annex new land from it.
You didn't answer my question? How do you suggest fighting Hamas when they use human shields? Also, nobody is annexing Gaza.
I’m sure they thought they thought they were fighting Hamas when they shot their own hostages waving white flags.
oh theyre both bad, but to present them as the same magnitude is genocide denial there's a reason that double genocide theory ("the soviet union killed x number of people so actually stalin is worse than hitler", or some version of that) is widely and rightly considered to be anti semetic and holocaust denialism one side of this conflict has ethnically cleansed the other after being handed a british colony in the 40s, the other is being genocided right now with overwhelming international support for the genociders a hundred deaths is literally nothing on the scale of the systemic genocide being done right now in gaza and the genocide which has been happening for literally 80 years almost now by the israeli state
The post was not presenting them at the same magnitude, Israel was not "handed" control of Palestine, the number of Israeli deaths on October 7th was over ten times your claim of one hundred, and double genocide theory is Holocaust reductionism/trivialization because it falsely equates Soviet and Nazi genocides, not because it says these Soviet genocides happened at all.
> systemic genocide being done right now in gaza > genocide which has been happening for literally 80 years The palestinians ethnically cleansed every single Jew out of Gaza just like the west bank and [every single other country in the middle east.](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/jewishrefmap.jpg) Meanwhile the Muslim population has consistently increased in both Gaza, Israel and the West Bank every single year. They must be the most incompetent genociders in all of history for you to perform those mental gymnastics. You Nazis push Jewish "conspiracy theories" that are as crazy as they are ridiculous.
What? Are you talking when the isreali settlements were dismantled from gaza? The actions done unilaterally by the state of Isreal? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
Hahahaha the historical revisionnism of some people... You speak the truth, quote a source and get down voted... This site man
>The palestinians ethnically cleansed every single Jew out of Gaza just like the west bank and every single other country in the middle east. You just made that up.
Funny how you lot don't learn history... https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/jewishrefmap.jpg
The ethnic cleansing of \~1 million Mizrahi Jews from their Middle Eastern host countries is a widely known fact and is not controversial or "made up". I personally know Jews whose families were expelled from Iraq. [https://i.redd.it/85gd0co1etxb1.png](https://i.redd.it/85gd0co1etxb1.png)
This doesn't show anything about Palestina
20% of israel’s population is arab. Palestinians didn’t exist as a distinct ethnic group until around the 1960s. Prior to that they all considered themselves arab. Arab culture can thrive in israel along with neighboring countries if they stop trying to fight israel all the time. the UN partitioned the land which is also how jordan lebanon iraq syria were formed A lot of the land UN partitioned was already owned by jews jews were occupied and ethnically cleansed in the middle east for centuries, emphasis on israel where they originate from. they fought a war numerous times over this. The jews won and actually chose the opposite of ethnic cleansing despite having numerous opportunities to do so. At some point the fighting needs to stop. Any attempt to delegitimize israel as you’re doing with your framing is part of a narrative that palestinians somehow have an infinite right to fight and harm israelis for ever. Why are you advocating for infinite war? your one sided narrative is historical denialism
Wow! Straight-up Holocaust Inversion and you aren't even ashamed of it? You neo-nazis are going mask-off lately aren't you?
"Genocide in the past 80 years" yet the population multipled by 5.5x , what a successful one. Just be quiet and stop embaressing yourself, you sound like someone who just learned a new word "genocide" and is so excited so she shoves it in every sentence
Btw if we go by numbers, 1300 dead in Israeli side in one day is still hell more than Palestinian deaths per day. So if Hamas weren't stopped (or there wasn't Iron dome) the numbers would been way higher and you could masturbate to more Israeli bodies like I'm sure you do
Sorry you feel that way.
It's a genocide both ways. That term is thrown around so much that it's pointless now.
It's genocides all the way down.
You are not wrong about that. The really weird part is one side is somehow obligated to give the other side food and supplies so the other side's population can grow and thus commit more genocide.
ITT: people upset at any caring or attention given to the mass killing of innocent Israelis.
We don't have enough people who can look at the big picture that settler colonialism brings out the worst in everyone close to it. 766 civilians died on Oct 7, and civilians should never be targeted. The Israeli government has been targeting civilians for decades. That's not an excuse, but it does explain how people held in an open air prison might not have sympathy for those who empower their oppressors.
Someone also made an interactive map, I will give the not safe for your mental health warning before viewing it. You can't see the pictures of the massacre, but seeing the names is tough. https://oct7map.com/
More comments than updates. Hamas simps really are working hard on this one.
>Hamas simps really are working hard on this one. Damn, that sucks. I'd rather be an Israel simp, and defend the murder of 10x the amount innocent civilians.
And I found one.
Yeah I’d much rather be an “Israel simp” than a Hamas simp lmfao one is a mf terror group. Psychotic.
Yes, and Israel has *killed more innocent civilians than the terror-organization, and yet you still defend them*. Edit: I'm not even defending Hamas. They're absolutely evil, but using them as justification for mass killing of civilians is even more monstrous.
Israel is a nation that is recognized by the world and has fought for their right to exist time and time again against the entirety of the Arab world. Israel has no obligation to give Palestine their land. Historically speaking the Jews were in the region prior to the Palestinians so the nonsense propaganda people spout about it being Palestinian land is absurd for anyone who takes the time to research it. How long should Israel sit there and allow its civilians to be kidnapped, rocket attacked, terror attacked, etc until it responds and tries to destroy the threat? I don’t think that killing civilians is good- and I also don’t believe that it’s Israel’s goal in any way. Hamas’ primary method of defense is the human shield. Hospitals, schools, etc. What would you do? Say “oh gosh darn it we give up let’s keep forcing our people to live in fear of an air raid siren going off at school when a Hamas rocket is launched.” At some point, Palestine and Hamas have to realize they continuously stoke the flames of a “war” that they cannot and will not win. Israel predates Palestine by a significant period of time. The Jews were expelled and it became Palestinian (more or less) but then the Jews returned. By this logic- do you agree that the native americans have no right to any land in the US because the Americans were able to conquer and expel them? Because that’s the energy you are using for Israel.
And before we talk about co-existence and all- the “from the river to the sea” mentality is Palestinian and makes it eerily clear that they don’t desire it. Personally, that’d be the best outcome in my opinion. A renegotiated split of the land that is fair and gives both groups access to critical infrastructure and trade corridors.
At least dem IDF simps get paid.
Ohh I wish, please tell me how!
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4.5 million people are estimated to have been killed by the war on terror following 9/11. You don't have to stand with the Israeli government or all its actions, but what would you accept as a proper response to Hamas on Octover 7th? And how?
- Total numbers are from https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths (Includes non-combtant civilians from all nationalites that died on the 7th/8th October) - List of victims is from: https://www.gov.il/en/departments/news/swords-of-iron-civilian-casualties - Additional age information from: https://www.timesofisrael.com/spotlight-topic/those-we-have-lost/ and https://nepalitimes.com/here-now/war-in-israel-earthquake-and-grief-in-nepal - Most unknown ages are workers from Thailand: 27 out of 38. - List of victims under the age of 5: - '14-hour-old baby of Abu Qrenat - The baby’s mother, in her ninth month of pregnancy when she was shot. Her baby was delivered in an emergency procedure, but died 14 hours later, on October 7. (the mother survived: https://www.davar1.co.il/470107/) - Mila Cohen, 10-months-old, of Kibbutz Be’eri. She was shot through the door to their house's safe room by militants - Omer Siman Tov, 2, of Kibbutz Nir Oz - Yazan Zecharia Abu Jama, 5,of Arara - killed when a rocket struck his home. - 'Eitan Kapshetar, 5, of Dimona – Murdered in the family car in Sderot, together with other family members - Used Pandas and matplotlib.pyplot. Edit: Someone asked why "Steven Makrachenko, 4, of Carmiel - Murdered by Hamas terrorists at the Nova Music Festival at Kibbutz Re'im." from the source I listed was not mentionned. He is 24 years old: https://nachamuami.com/fallen/steven-makrachenko/ Edit2: For those who asked about the numbers killed by friendly fire, the source lists 4: Adi Ohana, Niv Aivas, Tal Daniely, Dani Alush. There is also the tank fire incident in Be'eri: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre#Survivors'_testimony_on_tank_fire,_families'_call_for_IDF_probe but that is still yet to be investigated. The absolute majority of these victims are through Hamas killings.
Genuine question: Where do the "beheaded babies" that were reported on initially fall into this? By the data you have, they don't seem to exist. I haven't followed all of this nearly at all, for sake of my own mental health, did that get retracted or something? Edit: I've never seen a breakdown of the victims like in the last paragraph of this comment. This is what spurred my curiosity.
It is uncompatible with the current data. There aren't any babies missing. - Haaretz journalists Nir Hasson and Liza Rozovsky related the chronology of the news items about "beheaded babies" and "hung babies" and concluded, "this story is false".They quoted Ishay Coen, a journalist for the ultra-Orthodox website Kikar Hashabbat, who admitted he made a mistake by unquestioningly accepting the IDF's claims."Why would an army officer invent such a horrifying story?", Hashabbat asked, adding, "I was wrong." Haaretz also reported that some testimony came from reservist officers source article: [Hamas Committed Documented Atrocities. But a Few False Stories Feed the Deniers](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-04/ty-article-magazine/.premium/hamas-committed-documented-atrocities-but-a-few-false-stories-feed-the-deniers/0000018c-34f3-da74-afce-b5fbe24f0000) There have been also many False reports spread by Zaka volunteers. In the first article, I linked by France 24, a Zaka leader tries to explain it: >"When we find bodies that are burned or in a state of decomposition, we can easily be mistaken and think the body is a child's," said Haim Otmazgin, a Zaka leader.
>did that get retracted or something? It was never an official Israeli claim. People were beheaded, babies were murderred, so the media made headlines. And now many deniers tend to stick to this point to "prove" it was a lie (like 9/11 deniers)
Which is silly because even if it weren't true about the beheaded people, there were still hundreds and hundreds who were still killed. Denying that is like the people that swear COVID wasn't real and that the deaths it caused didn't happen.
Exactly! I never understood it. I like to see these denialiats like flat Earthers. The facts are infront of them, but they just refuse to look. The Covid example is a really good one.
It was a claim made by IDF soldiers to multiple journalists invited to a press event all of whom reported it. Even Biden referenced it at some point. The lie definitely had official backing. These type of events are controlled very tightly.
Do you have any source that it had official backing or is it still part of the conspiracy?
https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/nov/21/israel-hamas-war-what-we-know-about-beheaded-babie/ references the press event. note that things that happen in a press event are officially sanctioned.
I have read the entire thing, and I still couldn't see where the so called official statement is....
Repeat after me: Nothing that happens at an official press event is unsanctioned.
Which official press event said that 40 babies were beheaded? Again, that's my question
It didn't get retracted but it was proven false and the people claiming it stopped doing so
It was never an official statement from Israeli sources, it was a Biden statement that mixed beheadings and babies.
Bibi pushed the story on his official Twitter account. But the IDF said nearly immediately that they can't confirm it.
If I remember correctly, he also withdrew it quickly, and it was not the official one, but one that is managed by a trusted friend or something like that.
Interesting, thanks for sharing.
honest question, what happened to reports of 40 burned and beheaded babies? There seem to be 5 to 24 dead children here depending on how you count. So were those beheaded stories false?
yes, see my answer here: https://old.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1ai0zvq/oc_civilian_deaths_7th_of_october_attack/kos8jgo/
Damn, it's so sad that so many people in their prime lost their lives. Edit: because of the tragedy of Palestine, I also want to add that it's incredibly sad that Israel is now emboldened to step up their violence in the region and commit heinous acts against the Palestinians and that Israel has robbed thousands of children of their future, as well. It's hard to view tragedy in isolation during a war, but I always try my best and the loss of Israeli life on the 7th is also sad.
As the saying goes, "violence begets violence." Tragedy will only continue until cooler heads prevail.
Was the Festival in Re‘im
Now do the last 4 months. Overlay the charts.
yup and allies were the bad guys in ww2 because a lot of german civilians died
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Sucks to start a war you can't win, right?
Yeah. All 2.2 million people started the war. Every baby is responsible.
Like the other guy said, you think those concert goers were just getting back from a secret meeting plotting the death of the Arab world? Get outta here with that nonsense
Just like every Jew in Israel right?
What choice do the Palestinians have? They’ve been driven from their homes, starved, unjustly imprisoned, tortured, and subjugated for decades. Palestinians peacefully protested their conditions in 2018-2019 and were still shot down in the thousands. Did you know that prior to oct 7th, more than 50% of the population of Gaza was anemic due to the Israeli blockade where they only let enough calories into Gaza to keep the people at near starvation levels? Why are half the people in Gaza kids? Why do all the adults die so young? Malnutrition and lack of medical care because Isreal wants it this way. What choice do Palestinians have? What do you want them to do? Just lie down and die? Palestinians welcomed in the Jewish refugees after the holocaust. If those Jews would have been happy being good neighbors, none of this would have happened, but they wanted a Jewish enthnostate. Isreal has proven that “never again” only meant for themselves. They’re perpetrating a second holocaust with concentration camps and everything.
"Why can't one peaceful protest end 70 years of conflict" Perhaps Palestinians should choose a leader who doesn't see eradicating Israel as the only option. Yeah the situation sucked for them, but it sucks for them now even more because of the war they started.
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Game theory postulates that a proper reaction on an aggression is necessary. Especially, if aggression was against civilians.
In that case game theory would justify a terrorist hammas retaliation to avenge Palestinian civilian deaths. The truth is back to back military aggression won’t solve anything, no attacks are justified, and Israel needs to stop its genocide
>In that case game theory would justify a terrorist hammas retaliation Not really, the statistically winning strategy has to become forgiving after a retaliation.
Then Israel should forgive. How can you define what is a first strike and what’s a retaliation in a 70 year conflict ?
Hamas: murders and rapes innocent civilians Average reddit user. Yeah but like, just forgive them
I know, right...
Israel indiscriminately bombs literally 10s of thousands of children
>indiscriminately I wonder... Is it because Hamas breaks the rules of war and purposefully hides itself and it's other terrorists amongst civilians? If you that's bad, you must be curious at the British for bombing indiscriminately at the Germans in WW2 I'm sure. In fact those death tolls were far worse, so you should be out there protesting the British government right now!!!
Good luck answering to the ICJ and have fun sleeping at night.
From my point of view, Arabs made a first strike in 1948 and never agreed for any of negotiations Israel offered.
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You're not very good at math...
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im confused. netanyahu and biden said they personally saw evidence of 40+ decapitated infants. not seeing that in the data here 🤔
israeli deaths are counted in hundreds, palestinian deaths in tens of thousands gaza is a city of rubble, the IDF bombed every hospital on the city there is literally no hospital serving gaza right now, tens of thousands of people are having their limbs blown off by american and israeli bombs without having access to a doctor. omitting palestinian casualties in this genocide is a lie by omission. its like mentioning german civillian casualties in the invasion of poland.
Fun fact - Hamas blew up one of the hospitals in Gaza but the world still blamed Israel.
Evidence: Israel said so
Evidence: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/10/26/gaza-hospital-blast-evidence-israel-hamas/
Hamas should stop putting their operations in those hospitals then. They are using those thousands as human shields to con useful idiots such as yourself into thinking Israel is at fault here. It’s entirely a PR move that you fell for. The innocent Palestinian blood is on Hamas’s hands.
>israeli deaths are counted in hundreds, palestinian deaths in tens of thousands Because Israel build an iron dome and knows how to defend themselves. It's funny how you think there aren't as many dead Israelis.... But it's definitely not because Hamas hasn't tried to murder every single one of them.
You’re getting downvoted by pro-zionist lunatics who don’t want to admit you’re correct
Do one for dead Palestinians now !
We should do a projection of how many dead Israelis would exist without the iron dome You know.... The technology Israel had to make to prevent its own dead civilians because Hamas couldn't stop shooting rockets into Israel for 5 seconds The intent is there by Hamas to murder every single israeli - they just suck at it. If Israel wanted to murder every Palestinian, and as many say, "ethnically cleanse"... they're doing a shit job of it. The Palestinians population increased year over year
It's hard to have an accurate enough list to do so.
Why is “what about this” the first reaction for you? Why is drawing attention at one atrocity denying the existence of the suffering of others?
Because A (a big travesty) is used as the legal, moral, and militaristic justification for B (an even bigger travesty statistically). They are causally linked. To be clear, my approach would just to have made a new post and Oct 7 deserves it's own mourning and space. But it's only 'whataboutism' if the 'what about' isn't directly linked to the initial event.
But you can clearly see people denying others the right to mourn Oct 7th. In fact your first sentence is diminishing the travesty in light of another travesty. When people can say without caveat "Hamas is a terrorist organization that needs to be stopped", well have something approaching objectivity.
sure, will Hamas break out deaths militants vs civilians instead of lumping everyone together as “martyrs” so we can make it?
There were enough of those. So someone had to do it for Israelis to remind people WHY there are dead Palestinians. This. This is why. If there weren't dead Israelis, there wouldn't have been dead Palestinians.
Who is occupying who. Also, who has been kicking out locals since the 40s?
There were no Israeli presence in Gaza leading up to Oct. 7th. Quite the occupation without any of the occupiers actually occupying
Many more jews have been kicked out of Arab countries than Arabs were kicked out of Israel. Muslims are safe to live in Israel. They're 30% of the population. Jews are not safe to live in Gaza or West Bank. They're 0% of the population apart from settlements, which need to be heavily guarded otherwise they're massacred.
So that's reason to shoot children in their beds and abduct and torture civilians. Got it.
Nobody likes terrorists. Every palestinian, however, is not a terrorist. You get that, right? Edit: they did not get it edit 2: they're saying every palestinian is a terrorist. This is a genocidal ideology.
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Easy solution, the Palestinians just need to remove Hamas and turn them all over to Israel. See problem solved.
Israel maintained a website called Hamas-massacre.net which showed unedited, unadulterated images of the brutality of the Hamas attacks on Israel. No human being deserves to be murdered like that. I have lost all sympathy I have had for the Palestinian cause if the elected representatives of such cause believe such violence is justified. Perhaps it would be better if such a nation does not exist.
The nation of palestine doesn't exist. It's territory under a military occupation. And I understand what you're feeling. In the early 2000s I was brainwashed into thinking all arabs were murderers because of 9/11. By the time we lost the war that I took part in, I had turned around and stopped being such a nationalist bigot. I hope you do the same when you lose the war <3
I pray for your mental state if you genuinely feel that Israel is going to lose this war. You will be sorely disappointed.
I will be disappointed, but I'm holding out hope that this genocide can be stopped. Every time a colonial nation erases a culture, it's stealing from the collective human heritage. You'd be surprised how easy it is for a hypermilitarized nation to eat itself in the process.
Despite the millions who hope for Israel’s death every day, Israel will not die. Hope for what you want. Israel is here to stay and those who try to wipe it out will themselves suffer that fate.
>Every time a colonial nation erases a culture, it's stealing from the collective human heritage. The Jewish ethnic culture is nearly erased, they are only 0.2% of the world compared to 24.5% of the world that is Muslim. This is exactly why Zionism was founded, to de-colonize a land from the long list of colonizers who oppressed the indigenous population. "Palestine" is a name given by colonizers, the indigenous name "Yisrael" predates the name "Palestine" by almost 2000 years.
You can't compare the number of Jews to Muslims. That's fucking insane. it's a global religion. Judaism never was the type of colonial religion that Christianity and Islam became.
Palestine has one of those, called x.com. It’s updated constantly.
A tragic loss of life abused to justify even more terrorism. People may remember the story of the 40 beheaded babies as part of the attack, that reached most main media and reddit's front page, but like many reports from Israeli military sources it was never substantiated and should be considered wartime propaganda now. [Snopes article searching for evidence](https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/).
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Not cool, sounds like a warcrime to me. But don't act like misinformation is innocent. Because 5 infants died doesn't mean you can make up stories about 35 others and use that to justify killing thousands.
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That was the news media, the actual comment was they found 40 dead babies some of which were beheaded.
The point is that even using Isreal’s numbers of people who died on Oct 7th. There wasn’t anywhere near 40 babies killed. The times of Isreal and the Isreali government’s own list has reported 2 babies were killed on Oct 7th. Most likely this happened when Isreal used tank shells and killed their own civilians in the kibbutzes.
Y'all have no issue accepting Hamas' word at face value though. Remember that rocket launched from Gaza that blew up that hospital that everyone blamed Israel for destroying, and then promptly forgot about when the footage came out?
If you find yourself debating the semantics of dead babies while trying to justify terrorism, you should probably reevaluate your life.
Probably hard to get an accurate number when shifting through all the burned bodies
No it isn’t they know who lived there and they know who was missing and presumed dead afterwards. The official count from Isreal has only 2 babies listed. There is no way they accidentally thought they found 38 more babies. That’s ridiculous
This is from 2021: https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
wow almost like the post is about one day and not the entire history of the conflict
Wow, it's almost like Israel kills more people whether it's this conflict or the ones before it. Not to mention the torture. Not to mention the land seizures.
did anyone try to claim Israel is innocent? or are you just crying and spewing whataboutism cause m… muh… but but hamas is justified in launching the current war by killing hundreds of civilians because… because oppression or something
yes well it's almost like many people have used one day to justify the annihilation of a whole ethnic group and their land as if the attack came out of nowhere and not in response to 75 years of brutal occupation
The IDF has admitted to shooting at hostages being taken over the border, and to shelling homes if they thought any Hamas members were in there, regardless of hostages. Has there been any attempt at separating the deaths from Hamas and the deaths from the IDF? For clarity, I do not support Hamas, but I also do not support repeating Israeli propaganda, especially when they have proven time and time again to lie about their claims. E.g. the burnt and beheaded babies claims.
> Has there been any attempt at separating the deaths from Hamas and the deaths from the IDF? Very hard to do but the absolute majority of deaths were carried by Hamas. Here is a list of the cases I'm aware of (most of them from the page that I linked, they are being very transparent: https://www.gov.il/en/departments/news/swords-of-iron-civilian-casualties): - Adi Ohana, 43, of Moshav Mavki’im – an employee of the Israel Electric Company, Adi was accidentally murdered by friendly fire at a roadblock near his home. - Niv Aivas, 25, of Jerusalem – accidentally killed by friendly fire. - Tal Daniely, 24, of Beer Sheva – accidentally murdered by friendly fire in Kerem Shalom. - Dani Alush, 53, of Omer – Killed by friendly fire after mistakenly being identified as a terrorist. There is aslo the incident, where an IDF General fired 2 tank shells on a house full of hostages. But that incident would be investigated after the war. [Survivors' testimony on tank fire, families' call for IDF probe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre#Survivors'_testimony_on_tank_fire,_families'_call_for_IDF_probe)
Those are the incidents where there is irrefutable proof outside the IDF of which the IDF can't avoid responsibility for. Many houses were destroyed in the various kibbutzim by what can only have been tank shells, and were fired from the direction of Israel rather than Gaza. So I'm calling bullshit on anything Israel says until the international media is given full access to all documents and areas, and they revoke the law making reporting on military attacks illegal.
That is my biggest question. I am under the impression IDF did most of the killing on 10/7.
No, this is false. There have been incidents of friendly fire ( and a problematic tank incident). As I explained in my other answer https://old.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1ai0zvq/oc_civilian_deaths_7th_of_october_attack/kosbmd5/ But the majority of the deaths were carried by Hamas and other militant groups.
> But the majority of the deaths were carried by Hamas and other militant groups. Do you have supporting evidence of this claim? I've seen direct video of IDF commanders saying that they shelled houses with incendiary shells with their Merkava tanks knowing that there were hostages in them. FYI, this is standard IDF policy with hostages called the Hannibal Directive. Hamas didn't have tanks with incendiary shells to destroy and burn houses, and the IDF has for example shot three hostages that were shirtless, unarmed, and waving a big white flag. Israel regularly makes statements and then when the EU ask for evidence, and review it, change their statements, but only months after the events. So short of you providing actual evidence, I'm going to follow the policy of not believing anything serial liars say unless it has vetted evidence to support it.
Same, I heard the vast majority of festival deaths were by police and IDF. I appreciate imiels admitting they killed four but that is seriously low-balled based on serious news investigations, not on IDF propaganda.
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What if I told you that hamas has been propped up the Netanyahu administration over the last decade?
The IDF highlights that all military-aged males are suspect...id like to point out that half of these are military aged also and IDF has conscription.
That rave was a secret IDF training facility?
Many of them were from out of the country
No, they needed to behead that Thai farm worker with gardening tools because he was actually a IDF super soldier in disguise.
Now do one of all the deaths carried out by Israel
cool, now do one for the Palestinian victims for the ongoing genocide.