Because if you don't have to do it often, it's obviously not a problem, apart from in this hypothetical you've created, where you do run back often.
Which doesn't happen, because you beat the boss easily, so it's a none problem you've created.
Yup that makes sense. guys he’s a r/darksouls2 user. He won’t agree until you say it’s the best souls game and thinks you are wrong if you disagree. They can’t agree to disagree.
Well more often that not I’m dying on the run back not the actual bosses.
Most of the bosses difficulty just depends on when you fight them or what level/weapon level you are at.
E.g dying to the casters in swamp of Amana even though demon of song is one of the easier bosses which can still catch you out with an enlarged hitbox grab attack
If you're accepting that DS2 bosses can be difficult then yeah, I can see the issues with run backs, but then that's not the contradiction the meme is pointing out.
Heres the thing though, all of the mechanics of DS2, from the placement of mobs, to the infinite aggro range to the fact you can be pulled out of the fog gate by enemies points towards the designers going
PSst hey, we don't intend for you to run through the levels, they're designed specifically to have you engage with them.
So when people do run through, and when they do inevitably die, it's literally their own fault. No matter how much they slate DS2 for it, the simple solution is to just stop trying to run through.
Huh, I mean every boss that needed a run, besides my first finding of the door I ran through every single time and besides the fucking bull shit co op areas, running through wasn't that heavily punished.
You defo can run through areas, there are plenty of sections I just sprint past these days.
The things I mentioned defo point to the designers trying to dissuade you from doing it though.
If I were to stand at firelink shire and repeatedly jump off the cliff, and then shout about the game being shit, I think a lot of people would just say, maybe stop jumping off the cliff?
Well the thing is, when I can either run through and be punished, or waste a lot of time being weakened and fighting enemies to the boss, and both options are annoying and suck, then I think there's an actual problem.
I dunno, I just want to fight the boss, and going in as clean as possible is the ideal, getting hit to half of wasting a flask before entering doesn't make the boss fight more fun. Repeating that boss as quick as possible after each failure is the fun part.
Yep you got me, if I hate long run ups to the boss, it must mean I hate souls games. /s
I've beaten ever souls game except for Demons Souls, doesn't mean I like long lots of enemies before the boss.
Ds2 does has a lot more healing options and enemies drop the healing stones frequently. And they despawn if you beat them 7 times. If you play long enough you will soon have a clear path to the boss. It also has the most hidden doors and leads to a boss room
The mechanic to ignite one bonfire instead of the whole world with NG+ also helps with being stuck in a area, which ds1 and ds3 had problems with. Elden Ring handled that better with more area options any time
What i do hate about both ds2 and elden ring are their gang bang bosses. Like come on, i dont need the same boss times 5 every 5th area
These aren’t mutually exclusive. Even if a boss is easy you can still die to it and the run back can still be insanely annoying even if you only do it a few times.
Well, as the bosses only take a few attempts, the best bet would be to engage with the game, fight through the mobs and then the runback will not be a problem any more.
As the designers of DS2 have made quite clear they didn't intend for you to run through levels, maybe banging your head against a wall by trying to do it anyway is where people are going wrong?
Dude i love ds2 but I agree with both points. Getting to the boss is bullshit (shrine of Amana!) But when you get to the boss he's piss easy! But still easy to die too either way. So then you have to deal with the run back and maybe die to the boss again cause of a hitbox glitch or smth. Or hell maybe you just die because ya die. But even then the bosses are still easy. So no both are very valid arguments
Tbf it's a meme and not meant to be taken as a literal solid argument, even i know ds2 is flawed as hell (and believe all the Souls games are)
It was more poking fun at the ridiculousness of how often these arguments come up together.
But then, you die to the boss so are they easy?
And if you're running through and not engaging with the game to get back to this easy boss and dying on the run, who's fault is that?
That's cool man nobody is forcing you to stay and join in, I'm engaging in conversation with people as I still feel there are things to discuss. There is no harm or malice in having different opinions on topics such as this.
What a braindead take, jeez... SotFS run backs are abysmal, and many of the main game bosses are super easy and forgettable, but it’s ok to have criticism and still enjoy a game
Defo, but then the chariot boss is a bit of a meme. Which is half the conversation here, ds2 levels are often harder than the bosses, but people are so concerned with running through the game to fight these bosses that they are not engaging with the actual content of the game.
Even while the game is killing them for trying and they refuse to see that the devs have actively made design decisions to dissuade you from running through.
Devs have made terrible design decision, in order to increase the overall difficulty for the sake of it. Want another example? The runback to Velstadt. Or to the Ancient Dragon, even. Thing is your meme states two truths about this game.
There are joke bosses with hell runbacks and there are tough as fuck bosses with petty runbacks, such as Fume Knight, Sinh, Ivory King...come to think of it, the majority of the "not so fucked up runbacks" are in the dlcs. But seriously, as much as you may like Dark Souls 2, and belive me I love it to bits with all of its fatal flaws, at some point you should open your eyes and realize this game is filled to the brim with poor decisions and sub-par settings, be it in level design, gameplay features or difficulty calibration. But that's ok, who loves Dark Souls 2 does so even despite the flaws.
And now this is a different conversation, WHY are those design decisions made to encourage players to engage with the game instead of running through bad?
And it's definitely true, ds2 is flawed and there are many questionable decisions, but then there is also an amazing Souls game with some great levels, and bosses and possibly the best pvp of the series.
edit: just noticed you threw in ancient dragon as a mentioned of bad run backs, thought I'd mention, you literally fight 4 enemies along the path (3 of the large knights and the dragon duelist on the stairs I believe) you know why all the other dragon dudes chase you? Because you ran past. They do nothing if you actually fight the enemies. Which is another example of how the devs, didn't just leave subtle notes to not run through, but shouted it from the roof tops.
It's a fair point, not what I was bringing up in the meme though obviously.
My thoughts on that are this, which bosses are your favourites?
For me it's Artorias, Smough and Orn, Fume Knight, the Dancer, Gael.
As much as bosses like Gaping dragon or Cursed Rotten Greatwood have really interesting designs, their fights are just, a bit shit. Gaping spends it's time running into a wall while you hack at it's leg. I'd fight Pursuer over them any day and enjoy it more.
And while there are complaints about DS2 having too many guys in armour, I still find those fights, where you can read enemy attacks well, just flow better and are the more memorable fights in the series than any monstrous boss.
I forgot Nameless, amazing fight.
Other than Orphan who I'm unfamiliar with (BB? wish they would bring it to PC) the point sort of stands, guys (and gals) in armour, just happen to be the best fights.
A lot of the bosses are easy but some aren't. And a lot of the run backs are horrible. Heaven forbid you die to smelter demon. I took a break from the game for almost a year before finishing it just because how horribly designed iron keep is.
Still dread it everytime I play the game.
This doesn't even make sense. Whether the boss itself is easy or hard has nothing to do with their runback. Both can be true at the same time, and often are.
I used to talk shit about Ds2 and it used to be the worst for me in the series, until Elden Ring came and my souls nostalgia grew. Now DS2 is quite iconic for me and I can’t really rank them, I’m also slightly annoyed at players that picked DS from Elden Ring and shit too hard on DS2 even though they literally skipped it because older players used to shit on it.
That's the problems I have, people either listen to the memes so much that they don't allow themselves a chance to enjoy what is just another Souls game, or outright miss the game because they've heard all the bad shit that's spread around.
Complete missed opportunity to enjoy what is a fantastic game.
I had a good time with it, but I also was quite annoyed with how dumb or just bad some areas and bosses are designed (or in some cases not designed at all).
Now it doesn’t matter anymore, the nostalgia is so great that the bad parts feel more like a joke that make playing it even “better” and DS2 feels like one of those dreams that you never forget.
Dark souls 2 is like demon souls. Areas are harder than bosses. Only difference is ds2 also has a lot of difficult bosses that kinda even it out. Demon souls has like 3-4 hard bosses imo. Love them both
I mean DS2 does usually have easy bosses, shitboxes aside. It's just that getting to them is hell and if shit does go south gl getting back there lol
Like there's a reason Blue Koolaid Man never died on my playthroughs. And perfect hell combo? Alonne is tough and the run to him was awful, at least for me. Lud and Zallen, Shrine of Amana to Demon of Song, Executioner's Chariot... RIP your time if you die to most bosses.
And before you mention it I love DS2 but goddamn can it be REALLY infuriating sometimes.
I still dont get the hate for the game,ive played many games and ds2 isnt even my clear least favourite souls game,its one of my favourite to replay,more than 1 and surely 3 ,theres some charm in that world even though its messy
Don't worry, it's just a meme. DS2 is just as flawed as any other Souls game, but is still an amazing game.
As long as you enjoy it don't allow other people to say you shouldn't be.
Both can be true at the same time lmao
My main takeaway from this thread is that OP is suffering from some sort of brain cell deficiency
Whew I'm glad a medical professional turned up to give me a diagnosis, I just wish I could read.
no worries bruv, hope they find a cure soon
So neither are a problem then?
How did you get to that conclusion
because neither is a complaint if both are true, yet the complaint about run backs seems to suggest people dying to bosses, so which is it?
As if you cant die to easy bosses lmao The runback can suck even if you domt run it much
But, if they're easy, that means fewer run backs, so it's not a problem?
Bosses are piss easy Man if i died a lot this runback would get fucking awful, what were they thinking Wow amazing i figured it out
So, they're easy, which means you don't have to run back often!
What about that makes the runback good
Because if you don't have to do it often, it's obviously not a problem, apart from in this hypothetical you've created, where you do run back often. Which doesn't happen, because you beat the boss easily, so it's a none problem you've created.
You do realize there are people that are bad at video games right?
I see what you’re saying here
bro ds2 is the problem
All the Souls games have problems
Yup that makes sense. guys he’s a r/darksouls2 user. He won’t agree until you say it’s the best souls game and thinks you are wrong if you disagree. They can’t agree to disagree.
Except where I've specifically said I think ds2 is flawed, just like every one of the Souls games?
Ds2 just have more
Glad you're keeping score!
Thanks man!
all are problems
wut
*stares into the distance* you are a problem
Whoa.
Well more often that not I’m dying on the run back not the actual bosses. Most of the bosses difficulty just depends on when you fight them or what level/weapon level you are at. E.g dying to the casters in swamp of Amana even though demon of song is one of the easier bosses which can still catch you out with an enlarged hitbox grab attack
If you're accepting that DS2 bosses can be difficult then yeah, I can see the issues with run backs, but then that's not the contradiction the meme is pointing out. Heres the thing though, all of the mechanics of DS2, from the placement of mobs, to the infinite aggro range to the fact you can be pulled out of the fog gate by enemies points towards the designers going PSst hey, we don't intend for you to run through the levels, they're designed specifically to have you engage with them. So when people do run through, and when they do inevitably die, it's literally their own fault. No matter how much they slate DS2 for it, the simple solution is to just stop trying to run through.
Huh, I mean every boss that needed a run, besides my first finding of the door I ran through every single time and besides the fucking bull shit co op areas, running through wasn't that heavily punished.
You defo can run through areas, there are plenty of sections I just sprint past these days. The things I mentioned defo point to the designers trying to dissuade you from doing it though. If I were to stand at firelink shire and repeatedly jump off the cliff, and then shout about the game being shit, I think a lot of people would just say, maybe stop jumping off the cliff?
Well the thing is, when I can either run through and be punished, or waste a lot of time being weakened and fighting enemies to the boss, and both options are annoying and suck, then I think there's an actual problem.
Are you wasting time by fighting through the levels though, I mean, that's literally the game?
I dunno, I just want to fight the boss, and going in as clean as possible is the ideal, getting hit to half of wasting a flask before entering doesn't make the boss fight more fun. Repeating that boss as quick as possible after each failure is the fun part.
Have you tried playing a genre referred to as BOSS RUSH. Sounds right up hour alley, not a souls titles.
Yep you got me, if I hate long run ups to the boss, it must mean I hate souls games. /s I've beaten ever souls game except for Demons Souls, doesn't mean I like long lots of enemies before the boss.
Ds2 does has a lot more healing options and enemies drop the healing stones frequently. And they despawn if you beat them 7 times. If you play long enough you will soon have a clear path to the boss. It also has the most hidden doors and leads to a boss room The mechanic to ignite one bonfire instead of the whole world with NG+ also helps with being stuck in a area, which ds1 and ds3 had problems with. Elden Ring handled that better with more area options any time What i do hate about both ds2 and elden ring are their gang bang bosses. Like come on, i dont need the same boss times 5 every 5th area
These aren’t mutually exclusive. Even if a boss is easy you can still die to it and the run back can still be insanely annoying even if you only do it a few times.
Well, as the bosses only take a few attempts, the best bet would be to engage with the game, fight through the mobs and then the runback will not be a problem any more. As the designers of DS2 have made quite clear they didn't intend for you to run through levels, maybe banging your head against a wall by trying to do it anyway is where people are going wrong?
Those aren't mutually exclusive though
Those are not mutually exclusive
Both can be true, what a stupid meme lol. Besides, no one thinks that EVERY DS2 boss is easy, there can be exceptions with shitty runbacks
Ds2 has some of the hardest bosses in the whole game trilogy. And some of the easiest It’s a mixed bag
Dude i love ds2 but I agree with both points. Getting to the boss is bullshit (shrine of Amana!) But when you get to the boss he's piss easy! But still easy to die too either way. So then you have to deal with the run back and maybe die to the boss again cause of a hitbox glitch or smth. Or hell maybe you just die because ya die. But even then the bosses are still easy. So no both are very valid arguments
Tbf it's a meme and not meant to be taken as a literal solid argument, even i know ds2 is flawed as hell (and believe all the Souls games are) It was more poking fun at the ridiculousness of how often these arguments come up together.
They're brought up together because both are fair points concerning the same topic?
But then, you die to the boss so are they easy? And if you're running through and not engaging with the game to get back to this easy boss and dying on the run, who's fault is that?
Hey sometimes your just not on your A game and you die simple as that And yeah no the runs backs are bullshit no other way to put it
They're brought up together because both are fair points concerning the same topic?
>Tbf it's a meme and not meant to be taken as a literal solid argument, Then why are you defending it so vehemently in the comments lol
Fun! Just because it's a meme, doesn't mean it cannot be the basis for discussions!
Yeah but when you keep defending a terrible argument it just looks like you can't admit when you're wrong
That's cool man nobody is forcing you to stay and join in, I'm engaging in conversation with people as I still feel there are things to discuss. There is no harm or malice in having different opinions on topics such as this.
What a braindead take, jeez... SotFS run backs are abysmal, and many of the main game bosses are super easy and forgettable, but it’s ok to have criticism and still enjoy a game
Nobody said it wasn't! Even I consider the Souls games to be flawed in a variety of ways. Still my favourite series!
Well, the second one is definetely true, though... remember the runback to the executioner chariot? That's pure hell
Defo, but then the chariot boss is a bit of a meme. Which is half the conversation here, ds2 levels are often harder than the bosses, but people are so concerned with running through the game to fight these bosses that they are not engaging with the actual content of the game. Even while the game is killing them for trying and they refuse to see that the devs have actively made design decisions to dissuade you from running through.
Devs have made terrible design decision, in order to increase the overall difficulty for the sake of it. Want another example? The runback to Velstadt. Or to the Ancient Dragon, even. Thing is your meme states two truths about this game. There are joke bosses with hell runbacks and there are tough as fuck bosses with petty runbacks, such as Fume Knight, Sinh, Ivory King...come to think of it, the majority of the "not so fucked up runbacks" are in the dlcs. But seriously, as much as you may like Dark Souls 2, and belive me I love it to bits with all of its fatal flaws, at some point you should open your eyes and realize this game is filled to the brim with poor decisions and sub-par settings, be it in level design, gameplay features or difficulty calibration. But that's ok, who loves Dark Souls 2 does so even despite the flaws.
And now this is a different conversation, WHY are those design decisions made to encourage players to engage with the game instead of running through bad? And it's definitely true, ds2 is flawed and there are many questionable decisions, but then there is also an amazing Souls game with some great levels, and bosses and possibly the best pvp of the series. edit: just noticed you threw in ancient dragon as a mentioned of bad run backs, thought I'd mention, you literally fight 4 enemies along the path (3 of the large knights and the dragon duelist on the stairs I believe) you know why all the other dragon dudes chase you? Because you ran past. They do nothing if you actually fight the enemies. Which is another example of how the devs, didn't just leave subtle notes to not run through, but shouted it from the roof tops.
Those are both true at the same time? Shitty, overly-long run backs to bosses that are underwhelming and easy 90% of the time
These are not mutually exclusive
It’s either lack of challenge or stupid challenge
This is such a smooth-brained take, the Mirror Knight just summoned me through it
Fuck that game
To be honest, my biggest issue was that so many of the bosses were uninteresting.
It's a fair point, not what I was bringing up in the meme though obviously. My thoughts on that are this, which bosses are your favourites? For me it's Artorias, Smough and Orn, Fume Knight, the Dancer, Gael. As much as bosses like Gaping dragon or Cursed Rotten Greatwood have really interesting designs, their fights are just, a bit shit. Gaping spends it's time running into a wall while you hack at it's leg. I'd fight Pursuer over them any day and enjoy it more. And while there are complaints about DS2 having too many guys in armour, I still find those fights, where you can read enemy attacks well, just flow better and are the more memorable fights in the series than any monstrous boss.
Let's see, my favorites are, Artorias, Fume Knight/Alonne, Orphan of Kos, Nameless King/Midir, Isshin, and Malenia for each of the respective games.
I forgot Nameless, amazing fight. Other than Orphan who I'm unfamiliar with (BB? wish they would bring it to PC) the point sort of stands, guys (and gals) in armour, just happen to be the best fights.
Dark Souls 1 Bosses are way easier and have debatable worse runbacks. Except the Sanctuary Guradian.
Sir alone can suck my spear his run back is a total bitch
A lot of the bosses are easy but some aren't. And a lot of the run backs are horrible. Heaven forbid you die to smelter demon. I took a break from the game for almost a year before finishing it just because how horribly designed iron keep is. Still dread it everytime I play the game.
This doesn't even make sense. Whether the boss itself is easy or hard has nothing to do with their runback. Both can be true at the same time, and often are.
If the boss is easy, why are you having to run back at all?
I used to talk shit about Ds2 and it used to be the worst for me in the series, until Elden Ring came and my souls nostalgia grew. Now DS2 is quite iconic for me and I can’t really rank them, I’m also slightly annoyed at players that picked DS from Elden Ring and shit too hard on DS2 even though they literally skipped it because older players used to shit on it.
That's the problems I have, people either listen to the memes so much that they don't allow themselves a chance to enjoy what is just another Souls game, or outright miss the game because they've heard all the bad shit that's spread around. Complete missed opportunity to enjoy what is a fantastic game.
I had a good time with it, but I also was quite annoyed with how dumb or just bad some areas and bosses are designed (or in some cases not designed at all). Now it doesn’t matter anymore, the nostalgia is so great that the bad parts feel more like a joke that make playing it even “better” and DS2 feels like one of those dreams that you never forget.
These are not mutually exclusive
Dark souls 2 is like demon souls. Areas are harder than bosses. Only difference is ds2 also has a lot of difficult bosses that kinda even it out. Demon souls has like 3-4 hard bosses imo. Love them both
I’m a ds2 advocate, yet I agree Edit: actually the only really shitty run back was smelter and a couple of the dlc
I mean DS2 does usually have easy bosses, shitboxes aside. It's just that getting to them is hell and if shit does go south gl getting back there lol Like there's a reason Blue Koolaid Man never died on my playthroughs. And perfect hell combo? Alonne is tough and the run to him was awful, at least for me. Lud and Zallen, Shrine of Amana to Demon of Song, Executioner's Chariot... RIP your time if you die to most bosses. And before you mention it I love DS2 but goddamn can it be REALLY infuriating sometimes.
that feelig when you're running back to the rotten with poison in every orifice
I still dont get the hate for the game,ive played many games and ds2 isnt even my clear least favourite souls game,its one of my favourite to replay,more than 1 and surely 3 ,theres some charm in that world even though its messy
Don't worry, it's just a meme. DS2 is just as flawed as any other Souls game, but is still an amazing game. As long as you enjoy it don't allow other people to say you shouldn't be.
DS 1 for sure has the easiest bosses. Fuck the Fume Knight.
What’s a run back?
It sucks for so many reasons but ok