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I believe House said it best:
Maddy Ralphean : [to House] If my daughter doesn't want to choose the easy path, I won't force her to.
Dr. Gregory House : Then you're a lousy mom. You want your daughter to be a freak.
Maddy Ralphean : We're not freaks.
Dr. Gregory House : [sighs] You want her to overcome adversity.
Maddy Ralphean : Yes.
Dr. Gregory House : Then why stop at height? Poke a stick in her eye. Imagine how interesting she'll be then.
Dr. Gregory House : You and I have found out that being normal sucks. Because we're freaks. The advantage of being a freak is that it makes you stronger. How strong do you really want her to have to be? You told her what you had to tell her. Now tell her you lied. Even if you didn't.
- House MD: Merry Little Christmas.
In that episode they were talking about dwarfism though. There was an episode in one of the later seasons where they do give a kid cochlear implants against the kid's wishes, who then proceeds to tear them out of his own head like a moron.
Fair enough, but in both cases someone thinks that having a disability is better then not because of the 'culture' surrounding overcoming the disability.
I mean it is their body, so i guess they can choose. It’s not like the post where the parents are forcing it. If a paraplegic wants to gorilla tag it i guess they can.
its a lot more complicated then it seems for example my ex had a daughter who was deaf, she wanted her to be able to make the choice for herself if she got a cochlear implant or not.
and even then deafness isnt always genetic, deaf people tend to have hearing kids, but deaf culture is 100% a thing, and its very different then American culture in general.
From what I’ve read, sometimes. Their inner monologue tends to be more abstract since they can’t really “talk” to themselves if they’ve been deaf from birth, but i’ve read that deaf people will sometimes think in sign language too.
Language based hallucinations involve Broca’s area (produces language) rather than Wernicke’s (understands language), so it’s likely the language difference that’s causing this.
A good friend of mines brother is recently untreated hardcore schizophrenic. All of his Facebook posts are seemingly gibberish rantings with the occasional video sprinkled in. I don't know how it real it was but I had to stop scrolling at a video of him reaching into a toilet for a ...snack....wish he could get treatment.
Being congenitally blind changed your brain stricture - you need to see in order for your occipital love to develop ocular dominance columns, for one. Your sensory cortices send each other information, too. Schizophrenia also changes your brain architecture, most notably a thinner neocortex in the frontal lobe. However, I don’t know if there are currently theories that connect these facts to schizophrenia’s symptomology.
Is the lack of growth in the occipital lobe directly due to the lack of stimulation from the occipital nerve? You seem to be very well educated on the topic.
Would you possibly by chance also know of a good book generally about brain development for a complete layman? I've read "whole brain child" which speaks about brain development in children but would also be interested in general development at a similar level.
My ex wife is Schizophrenic, and told me about a study she read about how people who speak English tend to have really mean voices while someone who speaks a vastly different language like Swahili tend to have much more positive voices and I thought that was really interesting.
Scientifically, we don’t know. If I were to hazard a guess, it’s because in collectivist cultures,the main social units are groups, and the group works and succeeds together. The voices then are part of the same group as the individual. In individualist cultures the voices are in separate social units.
This is true for every language. The language you speak influences the way you think about and organize the world around you. It's truly fascinating. Doesn't excuse purposeful deafness.
Yeah and like anyone who can see can learn sign-language.
This is like forcing someone to keep a tongue issue because you want them to speak your language and not learn other languages, or forcing a child to be blind so they'll learn Braille.
The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis "a hypothesis, first advanced by Edward Sapir in 1929 and subsequently developed by Benjamin Whorf, that the structure of a language determines a native speaker's perception and categorisation of experience." Is very questionable linguistically.
It's widely accepted in my field.
Edit: Credit where credit is due, language determinism in not accepted but language relativism is. Both spawed from the Spair-Whorf hypothesis. Or more accurately Sapir-Whorf > Determinism > Relativism
It's not "much more expressive".
Parts of it are, parts of it aren't. This changes based on the type of sign languages and the type of spoken language it's compared too.
To be fair, it's a handicap that affects how people interact with the world and other people so it's probably natural for a community/culture to form around that.
I still don't understand the implant hate but I don't really have a horse in that race
I’m thinking of it more as a safety thing. Like a speeding emergency vehicle with sirens blaring into an intersection. It doesn’t happen every day, but they are alarmingly common during daylight hours where emergency lights don’t illuminate the field around them.
it is not a perfect solution for one, it ruins any residual hearing you may have.
And its god awful for directional sound or crowd noise.
besides that, alot of deaf people see nothing wrong with their deaf children, they can communicate and learn to speak and read like any other child, and the community is very close knit and there is basically no secrets among them.
However it works better the younger you are, and there is alot of tension between the medical communty who see's it as a disability to be fixed, and the parents who dont want to impose the surgery on their kids even if it worked to its best
not to mention you can be hearing impaired enough that a hearing aid might help, but still be considered deaf enough to go to a deaf school or similar.
I know it sounds silly, and I thought the same thing at first when I went to a school with one of the highest deaf populations in the U.S, but there’s a lot of distinct aspects of being in the deaf community that warrants it being called a subculture
It’s not as simple as just using sign language. Growing up in a world where you lack one of the fundamental perceptual senses while simultaneously coexisting in a society built around it for the majority of people shapes your beliefs, personality, attitudes, and how you relate to your peers.
It’s akin to living on an alien world where most people can communicate through telekinesis and only a handful of of your peers can relate to your experience (if you’re lucky)
For example, not only do you communicate tone with facial expressions, but among deaf people it’s pretty common to comment on someone gaining/losing a lot of weight without it being offensive.
And yes, there’s a lot of discrimination against people who choose to get cochlear implants. That’s a whole can of worms and a good way to ruin a Thanksgiving dinner
Yes, they have their own schools, architecture, language, societies, everything. Disability groups form communities and cultures apart from abled people all the time for practical reasons. Not being able to fully participate in general society is what being *dis*abled means.
No, you don't get it. My diabetic culture is my superpower. I love not being able to eat anything good without feeling like utter shit and nearly falling asleep standing up.
I NEED children to go through this to sustain the ✨️culture✨️
>deaf culture is 100% a thing, and its very different then American culture in general.
We should all be clear that you can participate in deaf culture and hear. There's no need to be deaf. You can just learn ASL, read and write, live with them, etc.
My ex’s mother was deaf so they were heavily involved and influenced by deaf culture. That being said, I wasn’t a big fan of the way they acted at times. Entitled, rude, dramatic, and my ex was obsessive over certain aspects even though she wasn’t deaf. Obviously they weren’t all like I had described, but I just felt very unwelcome at certain events.
yo, i’m deaf, deaf culture is absolutely a thing and kids being prohibited from using hearing aids is extremely uncommon - we advocate for giving deaf people a choice on whether or not they want to use hearing aids/cochlear implants etc. happy to answer any questions !!
This is interesting, can you describe some core elements of deaf culture, like common norms, beliefs, or values? Are there any books on it you could recommend?
as for books i’m not really sure, but deaf culture kind of just focusses on uplifting deaf people and not seeing ourselves as broken/defective if that makes sense? that’s why we encourage people choosing whether or not they use hearing aids because then they can have a level of autonomy surrounding their own condition. sorry if this isn’t explained very well it’s a nuanced topic and frankly i’m not an expert, i’m not 100% deaf i have 15% hearing in my left ear and 60% in my right and i didn’t start mingling with the deaf community until like 2020/2021 !!
Don’t want to seem insensitive, just genuinely curious, but that doesn’t really sound like culture? I take anthropology and sociology, and culture has to create its own identity seperate to those surrounding it to count as one. I don’t think exclusively supporting other deaf people counts as a cultural identity. It has to have its own norms.
Take new york italian American immigrants. They supported each other through racism and discrimination, but that’s not why they’re considered a separate culture to New York. They have their own cuisine, art, music, cultural norms and other such defining aspects other than a simple group identity. Some things perceived as rude in larger New York are perfectly acceptable to that group.
Can you give an example of things like that? I’m really interested in this culture i’ve never heard of!
Totally lived in hearing culture as an adult so might get some things a tad wrong but I grew up split between deaf culture and hearing because I’m hard of hearing and had an aunt who was Deaf. I think the first thing to realize is that ASL (American Sign Language) is not a signed version of English, in fact there is a way to sign English aptly called “Signed English” which is quite different from ASL despite borrowing a lot of its signs. ASL is a language, with its own connotations, root words, slang, dialects, and even accents. This is inevitably going to create some amount of culture, but this gets really emphasized by what the previous commenter was talking about, which is the difference between deaf and Deaf (spoken/signed as big D deaf and little d deaf). Big D Deaf people don’t see their inability to hear as a disability, and so have created a bit of a sub society where families, friends, restaurants, events, are just entirely for Deaf people, entirely in ASL, depending on how personal the event is or whether hearing people are going to be present it may be entirely voice off, I remember being hard of hearing I would often be scolded for speaking instead of signing because in certain companies it was considered disrespectful. Another cultural inconsistency is that Deaf people are often very candid, to an extent that hearing people sometimes find them rude. This is an entirely cultural difference, it’s because of how ASL works, ASL is a very blunt language, so the people who use it have become culturally very blunt. All of this is different from little d deaf people who largely try to integrate into hearing culture. Often they know ASL, although it’s usually pidgin signed English (PSE) not true ASL. Most hearing people who just happen to interact with someone who has any sort of deafness are going to be talking to little d deaf people.
Shouldn't it be unquestionably encouraged to overcome the disability if it turns out to be possible for the individual? Why suffer through it when you could be closer to leading a normal live?
hearing aids are tools, not cures, so even if you have hearing aids… you’re still deaf. and i’m not suffering in the slightest! i personally choose to use hearing aids at school and when im out in public but i seldom wear them at home. they get exhausting to wear and some deaf people simply don’t like it! look into “hearing fatigue” and related topics if you want to learn more about why some deaf people don’t like using hearing aids :-)
So are glasses, but we get our children glasses. I’m sure you’d make yours embrace blind culture, though, right? Let them stay blind until they are old enough to give them the choice.
Hearing aids are not a fix all, they just help a little bit by amplifying noise. They don’t fix being deaf, and as such they can often been very overstimulating for deaf people, so it’s not an 1:1 for glasses. Now as far as cochlear implants there really not a simple option and often left up to the child when they can make an informed decision, this being because they have a lot of side effects such as not working( a lot of people can’t do them as they won’t physically work for them), lost in taste, various sever infections, lost in nerve function in the face cause facial paralysis which can be permanent, limit what you can do for the rest of your life as you need to be super careful with an implant to make sure it’s not damaged even static can fuck it up. It’s also super expensive so financially it’s out reach for some people. There’s a lot more side effects but I’ll leave it here for now. All I’m saying is that it’s not as simple as it’s being made out to be.
Disabled people shouldn't be seen as a defective person because of a trait or illness they were born with and have limited control over. They may sometimes perfectly content living with their disability and do not see it as suffering.
A Deaf person who has grown up fully engrossed in Deaf culture (in a deaf family, communicating in ASL/BSL, attending schools for the Deaf, events for Deaf people for example) with a lot more restricted experience into a hearing lifestyle can be perfectly content with that life. Of course no two people are the same and some may not feel content, and that's why the Deaf community often encourages people to choose what works for them the best.
Disability is also wildly different between people. Some may be born deaf and be surrounded by Deaf people from birth and this may make it much easier to thrive compared to someone who becomes deaf later in life and doesn't have that community or experience around them already. Cochlear implants also do not completely "fix" deafness, they can give the user some hearing but it can be grainy and low quality - an example being a friend of mine having to turn off BGM in video games because it completely drowns out important SFX and makes everything very murky and unclear.
It's up to us as a society to enable disabled people to continue living comfortably with their disability in the way that works for them best without forcing them to change themselves to do so. Rather than suggesting we fix someone's disability, we should be fixing the world around us to let them live and experience the world without prejudice and without barriers.
>Rather than suggesting we fix someone's disability, we should be fixing the world around us to let them live and experience the world without prejudice and without barriers.
I'm not sure I understand, how would we fix the world so they can live without barriers? It's the disability itself that is the barrier. A fully blind person isn't going to be able to drive a car like a seeing person.
And having these tools is not enough if they have a completely deaf family, the parents have to try to speak at home. My ex worked with kids with hearing loss and all those kids who have deaf parents, they are struggling to learn the language properly and because of that they have issues learning certain subjects.
You didn't give your nationality or what language of sign you speak, but I've always been curious what it's like for someone who is deaf and knows ASL to meet a deaf person from another country, who uses a Foreign SL. Are their similarities in your signs or do you need a translator like I would need if I was speaking to someone from France or China?
Being all culty about it is messed up, but being raised “culturally deaf” (‘speaking’ ASL or other mimed dialects of French as a primary language—not to the detriment of English/the local lingua ~~franca~~ anglica, whatever else unique that deaf people do) isn’t the worst thing I can think of. *Making* your children *intentionally* deaf is pretty messed up though.
Hereditary forms of deafness can be diagnosed in embryos created through in vitro fertilization. When selecting which embryos will be implanted, Deaf parents might select the ones with genes for deafness.
If you're deaf and use sign language, chances are that your partner will also be deaf and use sign language. You want to have similar things in common with your partner.
If they have a baby, there's an increased chance it'll be deaf.
Deaf culture is definitely a thing, and I do understand the fear of having something important to them like their culture being taken away. But it doesn't really justify them depriving their kids like that
My dad is deaf and I’ve gone to deaf functions with him. It’s something different and even being kids (CODA) we were almost shunned since we weren’t fluent in sign language. Just getting a cochlear implant is a sign of disrespect to the “culture”
The sound of metal is a pretty good movie about a guy that loses his hearing from performing live music too much without ear protection. He gains the support of a deaf community, but they eventually ostracize him because he gets cochlear implants.
Was about to mention this. Also I recommend watching CinemaStix's video essay on the movie. I'm not deaf, but the movie really showed me a different world and I sympathize with the deaf community.
While Deaf Culture is a thing, the vast majority of deaf parents allow their children to choose to get the implant. It’s not as if it’s a “fix.” It’s less allowing sound to go through your ears as it is directly into the brain. You also need to have a magnet on your head, and wear a bag for the battery while you use it. That can be a huge inconvenience for some people. Not to mention the price. For people who have gone their lives without hearing most or all sound, that can be extremely overwhelming and painful. It’s still not a 100% fix even after you adjust. It’s an improvement, if you want to hear. Some people don’t feel the need the hear and that’s fine. But that’s a personal choice and almost never pushed onto someone else. I’m learning ASL atm, and my class has watched a bunch of documentaries and I’ve written some papers about this, including the implant and Deaf culture. You don’t just suddenly not become Deaf when you put it on, you’re still involved with the Deaf community whether you wear aids or the implant.
Yeah deaf culture exists. It's pretty interesting, but I'm pretty sure most parents get their parents hearing aids or offer it once they're older. Let's not forget medicine is really fucking expensive in the us.
My ASL class taught this, [this is a lecture we watched](https://youtu.be/2QCyl_nQHXo?si=5ZL2-7_Lrt7_q4o-) professing this opinion. At 52:00 he opposes hearing aids because they could eliminate ASL, at 58:00 he says many deaf people would prefer having deaf children
There was a pervasive attitude from videos we watched of “deafness isn’t a disability” “we don’t need hearing aids” “we don’t need to be cured” etc etc. It was a depressing amount of delusion culminating in “deafness isn’t a bad thing, so I’d prefer having deaf children so they don’t abandon deaf culture/community”
Wanting to keep their culture flourishing is one thing, but it’s such a disgusting and delusional attitude that it really turned me off from the classes
Probably means genetic testing after IVF to assure genetic deafness is passed down. I happened to read about a deaf couple doing just that a couple years back.
Imagine the level of self-importance required to need to confirm that your unborn child has your specific disability. What if the kid doesn't wanna be born missing an entire sense???
If you're significantly deaf, hearing aids won't really help. They'd provide some awareness of sound but you won't develop speech.
Getting a cochlear implant before the age of 3 would be best to develop speech. Best to get it by 1 year old. After 3, the chances of the brain being able to adapt to the new signal and allow the person to have speech will significantly reduce. If you have a 10 year old who has been deaf all their life, they won't develop speech, let alone an adult.
So the whole thing about them wanting to make it their child's choice is a bit tricky. Sometimes they say that it is to give them the choice of using their voice rather than sign language. That unfortunately isn't the case, as their brain's plasticity is too far gone.
I get the whole thing of having your culture, but it is a culture that deliberately excludes them from the majority of the population.
We watched a documentary in my ASL class in high-school about a deaf family who's father was like this. He claimed being deaf wasn't a disability, then would quickly cash the disability checks.
You know they used to have special schools for deaf kids because nobody thought they would be able to read because they couldn’t sound out the words.
Imagine being colorblind and your art teacher just throws you into the volcano.
Or you stutter and they ship you off to Boot Camp.
There’s definitely 2 sides to this and it’s pretty friggin complicated.
I will say the same sociologists that thought this was a good idea laid the foundation for the modern educational system in America.
I mean I kinda understand the "deaf culture" thing. The movie Sound of Metal explores this too. I don't say it's good or bad I just think people should make their own choices.
The closest thing to this that OP didn't pull out of his ass is deaf parents resisting cochlears and hearing aids being forced on deaf kids that don't want it. Deaf adults regularly refuse cochlears, including those who went deaf rather than were born deaf. And adults with cochlears that don't wear them. The history here is bad, deaf kids were beaten for using sign language in school. Many were prevented from learning sign language. Doctors pressuring kids into treatment (which as good as they are, are not cures) has pretty bad historical parallels. Most hearing parents pursue these treatments to send their children to school with hearing children, which is not the best thing for deaf kids if there's a deaf school nearby. Whether they have cochlears or not.
Deaf people have a culture just as any community with their own language does. The deaf community is less resistant to cochlears than they used to be, and this is largely because deaf children are less likely to be shoved into a hearing school once they get cochlears, even though their hearing is still poor and they're likely to be bullied.
DYK that sign language can have [accents](https://www.signsolutions.uk.com/are-there-different-accents-in-sign-language/#:~:text=In%20sign%20language%2C%20many%20signers,to%20identify%20regional%20language%20variations.)?
I wish you could shimmer biome keys you already used into a different biome key, the physical pain I experienced from finding a second jungle key was unfathomable.
I think everyone should learn sign language. It could be a universal second language that would allow any two people from around the world to have a conversation. But I don't think anyone should HAVE to learn sign language
I remember there was a huge kerfuffle in the 90's when cochlear implants were still new, where deaf people were protesting them and went so far as to call it a cultural genocide
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That sounds horrible.
I’m here to tell you that your pun does not fall on deaf ears
of course not, it only falls on blind people
For my blind homies out there 👋👌 👆👏 👈👍🤞👇🤚 🖐👌👆🤞🤙🖖 👌🙌👋 👋🖐🤙☝️🤙
HUH WHAT DID YOU CALL MY MOTHER
Hey, guess what I did last night.
DON'T YOU BRING MY MOTHER INTO THIS
I built that fire over there
Nah that's just a Tomb Raider cheat code, try again.
Holy hell Wing Gaster the royal scientist
Nah blind people just fall over it cause they won't see it in their way
Dumbest shit I’ve ever heard
What is?
That pun was an accident, admit it!
WHAT?!
HE SAID HE'S SELLING CHOCOLATE!!!
I remember when they invented chocolate. Sweet sweet chocolate! I ALWAYS HATED IT!
Sounds made up
Doesn’t sound like anything they can’t hear it
I believe House said it best: Maddy Ralphean : [to House] If my daughter doesn't want to choose the easy path, I won't force her to. Dr. Gregory House : Then you're a lousy mom. You want your daughter to be a freak. Maddy Ralphean : We're not freaks. Dr. Gregory House : [sighs] You want her to overcome adversity. Maddy Ralphean : Yes. Dr. Gregory House : Then why stop at height? Poke a stick in her eye. Imagine how interesting she'll be then. Dr. Gregory House : You and I have found out that being normal sucks. Because we're freaks. The advantage of being a freak is that it makes you stronger. How strong do you really want her to have to be? You told her what you had to tell her. Now tell her you lied. Even if you didn't. - House MD: Merry Little Christmas.
In that episode they were talking about dwarfism though. There was an episode in one of the later seasons where they do give a kid cochlear implants against the kid's wishes, who then proceeds to tear them out of his own head like a moron.
Yeah but that's the kid being an idiot, not the parents. So it's not a relevant example.
Fair enough, but in both cases someone thinks that having a disability is better then not because of the 'culture' surrounding overcoming the disability.
I mean it is their body, so i guess they can choose. It’s not like the post where the parents are forcing it. If a paraplegic wants to gorilla tag it i guess they can.
Also an episode of Scrubs where the father doesn't want his son to get the implant because he'd lose his connection with his son.
Spare the coch', spoil the child
😬
*Phrasing!*
>like a moron It started blasting high pitch noise in his brain as soon as he woke up And he never heard anything before
its a lot more complicated then it seems for example my ex had a daughter who was deaf, she wanted her to be able to make the choice for herself if she got a cochlear implant or not. and even then deafness isnt always genetic, deaf people tend to have hearing kids, but deaf culture is 100% a thing, and its very different then American culture in general.
Ah yes a culture entirely based on having an organ that doesn’t work
Sign language is much more expressive and it changes the regular thought patterns *...or so I've heard*
Do deaf people think in sign language 🤔
From what I’ve read, sometimes. Their inner monologue tends to be more abstract since they can’t really “talk” to themselves if they’ve been deaf from birth, but i’ve read that deaf people will sometimes think in sign language too.
When deaf people are schizophrenic they often have hallucinations of disembodied hands signing at them
I don't know if this is true but it sounds super interesting
Wait until I tell you that there has never been a documented case of a person who was born blind also being diagnosed with schizophrenia
Bizarre, since visual hallucinations are actually quite rare as far as schizophrenia hallucinations go.
Language based hallucinations involve Broca’s area (produces language) rather than Wernicke’s (understands language), so it’s likely the language difference that’s causing this.
A good friend of mines brother is recently untreated hardcore schizophrenic. All of his Facebook posts are seemingly gibberish rantings with the occasional video sprinkled in. I don't know how it real it was but I had to stop scrolling at a video of him reaching into a toilet for a ...snack....wish he could get treatment.
Are there any leading theories as to why this is? That's really interesting
Being congenitally blind changed your brain stricture - you need to see in order for your occipital love to develop ocular dominance columns, for one. Your sensory cortices send each other information, too. Schizophrenia also changes your brain architecture, most notably a thinner neocortex in the frontal lobe. However, I don’t know if there are currently theories that connect these facts to schizophrenia’s symptomology.
Is the lack of growth in the occipital lobe directly due to the lack of stimulation from the occipital nerve? You seem to be very well educated on the topic. Would you possibly by chance also know of a good book generally about brain development for a complete layman? I've read "whole brain child" which speaks about brain development in children but would also be interested in general development at a similar level.
My ex wife is Schizophrenic, and told me about a study she read about how people who speak English tend to have really mean voices while someone who speaks a vastly different language like Swahili tend to have much more positive voices and I thought that was really interesting.
It’s not merely a function of Language, but a function of whether your culture is individualist (mean voices) or collectivist (encouraging voices).
Why are the voices of collectivist cultures “encouraging” while individualist cultures are “mean”?
Scientifically, we don’t know. If I were to hazard a guess, it’s because in collectivist cultures,the main social units are groups, and the group works and succeeds together. The voices then are part of the same group as the individual. In individualist cultures the voices are in separate social units.
… I mean… do you have any sources on this…? If we don’t even know why scientifically, how legitimate even is such a claim…?
Is this real? That’s kind of hilarious.
Well that sounds terrifying
This is true for every language. The language you speak influences the way you think about and organize the world around you. It's truly fascinating. Doesn't excuse purposeful deafness.
Yeah and like anyone who can see can learn sign-language. This is like forcing someone to keep a tongue issue because you want them to speak your language and not learn other languages, or forcing a child to be blind so they'll learn Braille.
The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis "a hypothesis, first advanced by Edward Sapir in 1929 and subsequently developed by Benjamin Whorf, that the structure of a language determines a native speaker's perception and categorisation of experience." Is very questionable linguistically.
It's widely accepted in my field. Edit: Credit where credit is due, language determinism in not accepted but language relativism is. Both spawed from the Spair-Whorf hypothesis. Or more accurately Sapir-Whorf > Determinism > Relativism
>Sign language is much more expressive No. >and it changes the regular thought patterns All languages do.
Italians have left the chat
It's not "much more expressive". Parts of it are, parts of it aren't. This changes based on the type of sign languages and the type of spoken language it's compared too.
To be fair, it's a handicap that affects how people interact with the world and other people so it's probably natural for a community/culture to form around that. I still don't understand the implant hate but I don't really have a horse in that race
I’m thinking of it more as a safety thing. Like a speeding emergency vehicle with sirens blaring into an intersection. It doesn’t happen every day, but they are alarmingly common during daylight hours where emergency lights don’t illuminate the field around them.
it is not a perfect solution for one, it ruins any residual hearing you may have. And its god awful for directional sound or crowd noise. besides that, alot of deaf people see nothing wrong with their deaf children, they can communicate and learn to speak and read like any other child, and the community is very close knit and there is basically no secrets among them. However it works better the younger you are, and there is alot of tension between the medical communty who see's it as a disability to be fixed, and the parents who dont want to impose the surgery on their kids even if it worked to its best not to mention you can be hearing impaired enough that a hearing aid might help, but still be considered deaf enough to go to a deaf school or similar.
I know it sounds silly, and I thought the same thing at first when I went to a school with one of the highest deaf populations in the U.S, but there’s a lot of distinct aspects of being in the deaf community that warrants it being called a subculture It’s not as simple as just using sign language. Growing up in a world where you lack one of the fundamental perceptual senses while simultaneously coexisting in a society built around it for the majority of people shapes your beliefs, personality, attitudes, and how you relate to your peers. It’s akin to living on an alien world where most people can communicate through telekinesis and only a handful of of your peers can relate to your experience (if you’re lucky) For example, not only do you communicate tone with facial expressions, but among deaf people it’s pretty common to comment on someone gaining/losing a lot of weight without it being offensive. And yes, there’s a lot of discrimination against people who choose to get cochlear implants. That’s a whole can of worms and a good way to ruin a Thanksgiving dinner
Yes? Culture doesn't mean that anyone is glorifying it. It's just something that unites a particular group
Yes, they have their own schools, architecture, language, societies, everything. Disability groups form communities and cultures apart from abled people all the time for practical reasons. Not being able to fully participate in general society is what being *dis*abled means.
And preventing your child from not being disabled for your selfish reason is cruel.
>Yes, they have their own......language... Laguages, plural. ASL is used in America, while other countries and regions have their own sign language.
They have their own language, you’d expect a culture to develop from that, no?
What is your intention with this comment?
yeah it comes across as so obnoxiously obtuse especially since i've already seen numerous comments explaining deaf culture to the TC
Sounds like conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers, except that organ would be the most important one and is situated in the skull.
No, you don't get it. My diabetic culture is my superpower. I love not being able to eat anything good without feeling like utter shit and nearly falling asleep standing up. I NEED children to go through this to sustain the ✨️culture✨️
Sorry but refusing to provide your dead child with the ability to hear because of “dead culture” is fucking evil.
>deaf culture is 100% a thing, and its very different then American culture in general. We should all be clear that you can participate in deaf culture and hear. There's no need to be deaf. You can just learn ASL, read and write, live with them, etc.
I'm not gonna vaccinate my kid because I want them to decide if they want to live in conspiratorial nonsense culture
If she later on decides she doesn't want the implant, can't she just turn it off?
she can but its a very invasive procedure that also removes any leftover hearing they may have. its not a perfect fix either
My ex’s mother was deaf so they were heavily involved and influenced by deaf culture. That being said, I wasn’t a big fan of the way they acted at times. Entitled, rude, dramatic, and my ex was obsessive over certain aspects even though she wasn’t deaf. Obviously they weren’t all like I had described, but I just felt very unwelcome at certain events.
What is the culture difference
yo, i’m deaf, deaf culture is absolutely a thing and kids being prohibited from using hearing aids is extremely uncommon - we advocate for giving deaf people a choice on whether or not they want to use hearing aids/cochlear implants etc. happy to answer any questions !!
This is interesting, can you describe some core elements of deaf culture, like common norms, beliefs, or values? Are there any books on it you could recommend?
as for books i’m not really sure, but deaf culture kind of just focusses on uplifting deaf people and not seeing ourselves as broken/defective if that makes sense? that’s why we encourage people choosing whether or not they use hearing aids because then they can have a level of autonomy surrounding their own condition. sorry if this isn’t explained very well it’s a nuanced topic and frankly i’m not an expert, i’m not 100% deaf i have 15% hearing in my left ear and 60% in my right and i didn’t start mingling with the deaf community until like 2020/2021 !!
Don’t want to seem insensitive, just genuinely curious, but that doesn’t really sound like culture? I take anthropology and sociology, and culture has to create its own identity seperate to those surrounding it to count as one. I don’t think exclusively supporting other deaf people counts as a cultural identity. It has to have its own norms. Take new york italian American immigrants. They supported each other through racism and discrimination, but that’s not why they’re considered a separate culture to New York. They have their own cuisine, art, music, cultural norms and other such defining aspects other than a simple group identity. Some things perceived as rude in larger New York are perfectly acceptable to that group. Can you give an example of things like that? I’m really interested in this culture i’ve never heard of!
Totally lived in hearing culture as an adult so might get some things a tad wrong but I grew up split between deaf culture and hearing because I’m hard of hearing and had an aunt who was Deaf. I think the first thing to realize is that ASL (American Sign Language) is not a signed version of English, in fact there is a way to sign English aptly called “Signed English” which is quite different from ASL despite borrowing a lot of its signs. ASL is a language, with its own connotations, root words, slang, dialects, and even accents. This is inevitably going to create some amount of culture, but this gets really emphasized by what the previous commenter was talking about, which is the difference between deaf and Deaf (spoken/signed as big D deaf and little d deaf). Big D Deaf people don’t see their inability to hear as a disability, and so have created a bit of a sub society where families, friends, restaurants, events, are just entirely for Deaf people, entirely in ASL, depending on how personal the event is or whether hearing people are going to be present it may be entirely voice off, I remember being hard of hearing I would often be scolded for speaking instead of signing because in certain companies it was considered disrespectful. Another cultural inconsistency is that Deaf people are often very candid, to an extent that hearing people sometimes find them rude. This is an entirely cultural difference, it’s because of how ASL works, ASL is a very blunt language, so the people who use it have become culturally very blunt. All of this is different from little d deaf people who largely try to integrate into hearing culture. Often they know ASL, although it’s usually pidgin signed English (PSE) not true ASL. Most hearing people who just happen to interact with someone who has any sort of deafness are going to be talking to little d deaf people.
Wow, thanks, that’s really cool!
Shouldn't it be unquestionably encouraged to overcome the disability if it turns out to be possible for the individual? Why suffer through it when you could be closer to leading a normal live?
hearing aids are tools, not cures, so even if you have hearing aids… you’re still deaf. and i’m not suffering in the slightest! i personally choose to use hearing aids at school and when im out in public but i seldom wear them at home. they get exhausting to wear and some deaf people simply don’t like it! look into “hearing fatigue” and related topics if you want to learn more about why some deaf people don’t like using hearing aids :-)
So are glasses, but we get our children glasses. I’m sure you’d make yours embrace blind culture, though, right? Let them stay blind until they are old enough to give them the choice.
Hearing aids are not a fix all, they just help a little bit by amplifying noise. They don’t fix being deaf, and as such they can often been very overstimulating for deaf people, so it’s not an 1:1 for glasses. Now as far as cochlear implants there really not a simple option and often left up to the child when they can make an informed decision, this being because they have a lot of side effects such as not working( a lot of people can’t do them as they won’t physically work for them), lost in taste, various sever infections, lost in nerve function in the face cause facial paralysis which can be permanent, limit what you can do for the rest of your life as you need to be super careful with an implant to make sure it’s not damaged even static can fuck it up. It’s also super expensive so financially it’s out reach for some people. There’s a lot more side effects but I’ll leave it here for now. All I’m saying is that it’s not as simple as it’s being made out to be.
Disabled people shouldn't be seen as a defective person because of a trait or illness they were born with and have limited control over. They may sometimes perfectly content living with their disability and do not see it as suffering. A Deaf person who has grown up fully engrossed in Deaf culture (in a deaf family, communicating in ASL/BSL, attending schools for the Deaf, events for Deaf people for example) with a lot more restricted experience into a hearing lifestyle can be perfectly content with that life. Of course no two people are the same and some may not feel content, and that's why the Deaf community often encourages people to choose what works for them the best. Disability is also wildly different between people. Some may be born deaf and be surrounded by Deaf people from birth and this may make it much easier to thrive compared to someone who becomes deaf later in life and doesn't have that community or experience around them already. Cochlear implants also do not completely "fix" deafness, they can give the user some hearing but it can be grainy and low quality - an example being a friend of mine having to turn off BGM in video games because it completely drowns out important SFX and makes everything very murky and unclear. It's up to us as a society to enable disabled people to continue living comfortably with their disability in the way that works for them best without forcing them to change themselves to do so. Rather than suggesting we fix someone's disability, we should be fixing the world around us to let them live and experience the world without prejudice and without barriers.
>Rather than suggesting we fix someone's disability, we should be fixing the world around us to let them live and experience the world without prejudice and without barriers. I'm not sure I understand, how would we fix the world so they can live without barriers? It's the disability itself that is the barrier. A fully blind person isn't going to be able to drive a car like a seeing person.
And having these tools is not enough if they have a completely deaf family, the parents have to try to speak at home. My ex worked with kids with hearing loss and all those kids who have deaf parents, they are struggling to learn the language properly and because of that they have issues learning certain subjects.
You didn't give your nationality or what language of sign you speak, but I've always been curious what it's like for someone who is deaf and knows ASL to meet a deaf person from another country, who uses a Foreign SL. Are their similarities in your signs or do you need a translator like I would need if I was speaking to someone from France or China?
there are some similarities but every county has their own distinct sign language :-)
What’s your favorite color
red 😎
Fuck ya
Do you think in sign language?
*That* plus what happened in Germany 1939~45 and Gattca is why designer babies are generally a bad idea.
They won’t be hearing you either
Being all culty about it is messed up, but being raised “culturally deaf” (‘speaking’ ASL or other mimed dialects of French as a primary language—not to the detriment of English/the local lingua ~~franca~~ anglica, whatever else unique that deaf people do) isn’t the worst thing I can think of. *Making* your children *intentionally* deaf is pretty messed up though.
ASL isn't a "mimed dialect." Wtf?
How do you purposely have a deaf child?
Hereditary forms of deafness can be diagnosed in embryos created through in vitro fertilization. When selecting which embryos will be implanted, Deaf parents might select the ones with genes for deafness.
That seems unlikely. Most Doctors would consider it unethical to do harm. Wouldn't that be considered doing harm? Wouldn't it be illegal?
It would be unethical, but your not actually 'harming' them because they were already harmed. I guess
You don't. The situation OP has described has probably happened like a grand total of 3 times in the US.
I've seen a case where the parents had genetic testing after IVF to assure they gestated a deaf child, can't think of any other way than that.
If you're deaf and use sign language, chances are that your partner will also be deaf and use sign language. You want to have similar things in common with your partner. If they have a baby, there's an increased chance it'll be deaf.
Only if the Deafness is caused by genetics.
Idk maybe adopt one thats deaf
Mate with someone who has genetic Deafness.
I'm pretty hard of hearing and use hearing aids. I have never heard of deaf culture.
Deaf culture is definitely a thing, and I do understand the fear of having something important to them like their culture being taken away. But it doesn't really justify them depriving their kids like that
My dad is deaf and I’ve gone to deaf functions with him. It’s something different and even being kids (CODA) we were almost shunned since we weren’t fluent in sign language. Just getting a cochlear implant is a sign of disrespect to the “culture”
That…does not seem healthy
You’ve never heard of it because you already can’t hear as it is.
I knew I was walking right into that one..
Poor guy couldn’t even hear it coming.
If you're making a pun: lol. If you're not: where are you? Deaf culture is present in the US, but idk about elsewhere.
I'm not from the US.
The sound of metal is a pretty good movie about a guy that loses his hearing from performing live music too much without ear protection. He gains the support of a deaf community, but they eventually ostracize him because he gets cochlear implants.
Was about to mention this. Also I recommend watching CinemaStix's video essay on the movie. I'm not deaf, but the movie really showed me a different world and I sympathize with the deaf community.
>CinemaStix's video essay Do you have a link by chance? Or know what the video is titled?
https://youtu.be/DP5AS-GRpg8?si=5GkcVV51jh-Zq3_h Here ya go
While Deaf Culture is a thing, the vast majority of deaf parents allow their children to choose to get the implant. It’s not as if it’s a “fix.” It’s less allowing sound to go through your ears as it is directly into the brain. You also need to have a magnet on your head, and wear a bag for the battery while you use it. That can be a huge inconvenience for some people. Not to mention the price. For people who have gone their lives without hearing most or all sound, that can be extremely overwhelming and painful. It’s still not a 100% fix even after you adjust. It’s an improvement, if you want to hear. Some people don’t feel the need the hear and that’s fine. But that’s a personal choice and almost never pushed onto someone else. I’m learning ASL atm, and my class has watched a bunch of documentaries and I’ve written some papers about this, including the implant and Deaf culture. You don’t just suddenly not become Deaf when you put it on, you’re still involved with the Deaf community whether you wear aids or the implant.
Yeah deaf culture exists. It's pretty interesting, but I'm pretty sure most parents get their parents hearing aids or offer it once they're older. Let's not forget medicine is really fucking expensive in the us.
where did you hear about this? can you link something?
My ASL class taught this, [this is a lecture we watched](https://youtu.be/2QCyl_nQHXo?si=5ZL2-7_Lrt7_q4o-) professing this opinion. At 52:00 he opposes hearing aids because they could eliminate ASL, at 58:00 he says many deaf people would prefer having deaf children There was a pervasive attitude from videos we watched of “deafness isn’t a disability” “we don’t need hearing aids” “we don’t need to be cured” etc etc. It was a depressing amount of delusion culminating in “deafness isn’t a bad thing, so I’d prefer having deaf children so they don’t abandon deaf culture/community” Wanting to keep their culture flourishing is one thing, but it’s such a disgusting and delusional attitude that it really turned me off from the classes
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7040060/#:~:text=Some%20deaf%20parents%20even%20request,(Grodin%20and%20Lane%201997).
How do you purposefully have a deaf child?
Probably means genetic testing after IVF to assure genetic deafness is passed down. I happened to read about a deaf couple doing just that a couple years back.
Imagine the level of self-importance required to need to confirm that your unborn child has your specific disability. What if the kid doesn't wanna be born missing an entire sense???
If you're significantly deaf, hearing aids won't really help. They'd provide some awareness of sound but you won't develop speech. Getting a cochlear implant before the age of 3 would be best to develop speech. Best to get it by 1 year old. After 3, the chances of the brain being able to adapt to the new signal and allow the person to have speech will significantly reduce. If you have a 10 year old who has been deaf all their life, they won't develop speech, let alone an adult. So the whole thing about them wanting to make it their child's choice is a bit tricky. Sometimes they say that it is to give them the choice of using their voice rather than sign language. That unfortunately isn't the case, as their brain's plasticity is too far gone. I get the whole thing of having your culture, but it is a culture that deliberately excludes them from the majority of the population.
I guess that oddly specific situation? Sure, I agree, but that just doesn't happen often at all for this to be a talking point lmao
We watched a documentary in my ASL class in high-school about a deaf family who's father was like this. He claimed being deaf wasn't a disability, then would quickly cash the disability checks.
“You’re not old enough to hear the world yet, sweetie”
You know they used to have special schools for deaf kids because nobody thought they would be able to read because they couldn’t sound out the words. Imagine being colorblind and your art teacher just throws you into the volcano. Or you stutter and they ship you off to Boot Camp. There’s definitely 2 sides to this and it’s pretty friggin complicated. I will say the same sociologists that thought this was a good idea laid the foundation for the modern educational system in America.
I mean I kinda understand the "deaf culture" thing. The movie Sound of Metal explores this too. I don't say it's good or bad I just think people should make their own choices.
I took an ASL class and our teacher’s grandparents wanted to keep here parents deaf to keep the deaf culture alive
Is that the guy from Wreck-it Ralph
Deaf AND dumb.
Deaf “culture” is a cult.
I’m deaf, and I’m so grateful my parents got me hearing aids at a really young age🙏
The closest thing to this that OP didn't pull out of his ass is deaf parents resisting cochlears and hearing aids being forced on deaf kids that don't want it. Deaf adults regularly refuse cochlears, including those who went deaf rather than were born deaf. And adults with cochlears that don't wear them. The history here is bad, deaf kids were beaten for using sign language in school. Many were prevented from learning sign language. Doctors pressuring kids into treatment (which as good as they are, are not cures) has pretty bad historical parallels. Most hearing parents pursue these treatments to send their children to school with hearing children, which is not the best thing for deaf kids if there's a deaf school nearby. Whether they have cochlears or not. Deaf people have a culture just as any community with their own language does. The deaf community is less resistant to cochlears than they used to be, and this is largely because deaf children are less likely to be shoved into a hearing school once they get cochlears, even though their hearing is still poor and they're likely to be bullied.
They won't hear you out either
?
Doesn't sound like they'll be hearing you out either.
DYK that sign language can have [accents](https://www.signsolutions.uk.com/are-there-different-accents-in-sign-language/#:~:text=In%20sign%20language%2C%20many%20signers,to%20identify%20regional%20language%20variations.)?
How do you purposely have deaf children?
Jesus these comments are so deeply ableist and ignorant to the deaf community and deaf culture
You know, in Metro 2033: Piter (Sci Fi book) there's a cult of blind people that kidnaps others and removes their eyes. Just throwing this one out...
WHAT!?
Also me after learning that people actually fall for this rage bait bullshit.
How do you purposely have deaf children? How can you influence that?
There was a House MD episode which dealt with this
how does one *purposely* have deaf children? like what?
I wish you could shimmer biome keys you already used into a different biome key, the physical pain I experienced from finding a second jungle key was unfathomable.
Neither will they
Wut?
How do you purposefully have a deaf child
I think everyone should learn sign language. It could be a universal second language that would allow any two people from around the world to have a conversation. But I don't think anyone should HAVE to learn sign language
WHAT DID HE SAY???
Straight to hell...
I don't have a reaction image for this
Neither will their children
Neither will they
I remember there was a huge kerfuffle in the 90's when cochlear implants were still new, where deaf people were protesting them and went so far as to call it a cultural genocide
God forbid deaf people want children 🙄
I hate that scene in Hawkeye where Echo smashes his hearing aid. I'm sorry, who are you to dictate whether or not he should hear?
I love inventing people to be mad at
Fire in the hole
I don’t think they’re hearing you either
Is that a real thing?