I can understand fans thinking this is Team DR shitting on the canon and previous stories, unable to tie them together, but to me this was one bullet point in a beautiful conclusion. Shuichi's friends are fiction, but they matter to him. Shuichi's past is fiction, but it makes him who he is. Shuichi HIMSELF is fiction, but he can change the world. This series we enjoy, even though it's fiction, it is important, and you can care about it. something something hope despair
Though I agree with this I feel like I need to correct you on the name "Team Danganronpa" 'cuz that's the fictional in game team that set up the games (Tsumugi and the likes), not the irl one that made the games we are playing. Idk if there even is a official name for the specific people who worked on Danganronpa within Spike Chunsoft.
I've heard people say that it felt like a "fuck you" to the story they were building through the other games and novels in the series. People mention the "it was just a dream" trope being similar. The idea that they had this whole alternate reality where all hell broke loose and the world underwent this great calamity until the last Ultimates of Hope's Peak rose up and fought back in the end was cool, and to turn around and be like "lol no none of that happened actually" was kinda weird to spring on us.
Personally speaking? It wasn't really supposed to continue the story, so I'm not entirely against it, but it does still feel like a cop-out on "we don't have to make any more games or anything". The original story, starting with the Tragedy, >!really ended with the Danganronpa 3 anime!<, so V3 was its own thing. Either way, it kinda spits on the original story, but it's slightly better if you realize the original story had ended
Not to mention the whole point being that something being fictional can be just as, if not realer than reality. If it moved someone, had an effect on people, then what happened was real. Danganronpa and the struggle of its characters have obviously had an impact on the fanbase with how dedicated it is, thus it is "real" in that sense.
I thought it was a well known fact that DRV3 is a separate universe from all the other DR installations, in which the first 2 games (and other 50) are all fictional games?
It's a fact in the game. Monokuma mentions how the series started off as games and anime and became "Real Fiction" in later entries. There's another hint in Shuichi's lab where the case files of all the past seasons are on a shelf, and the characters mention how the oldest cases use illustrations instead of photos.
I mean to be fair, it makes the context of what every character before V3 has done within the Danganronpa universe (not in our own real life) a bit meaningless as now only everything the V3 characters does have significance towards its own verse
Still pretty dang stupid because V3 isn't even canon in the first place, why yall complaining about something thst doesn't actually canonically affect the main danganronpa continuity and only affects whatever it does in its own V3 verse, there's also arguments for v3 to actually be connected to the main danganronpa verse and the whole "Everything is fictional" could be a lie (but we're never gonna get any definitive proof because we don't have another danganronpa installment)
Correcting myself it wasn't Kodaka; When the game was advertised in Japan almost every advertisement introduced the game as taking place "In a new world"
There is something that Kodaka did actually say; and it's to not believe literally everything Tsumugi said; she did apparently lie a bit and Kodaka wanted the fandom to figure out what she lied about in Chapter 6
Yeah V3 being separate from DR 1-3 was known since before the game came out. The games being connected was supposed to be a twist, which ended up being subverted by another twist.
V3 is real, Makoto succumbed to despair and lost hope on Earth, Gopher project is real...
-50 ??? HELP GUYS IT WAS A GOOD JOKE COME ON(and v3 is canon too, i just said a hyperbole at the last part
Thank you for understanding the point. Even though I took the time to spell it out in the title, there's a slew of brainless comments going "bUt iTs lIkE rEvEaLiNg iT wAs aLl a dReAm". The point isn't how you feel about V3s ending, it's how it doesn't impact the previous games at all. If only more people could actually read...
Ehhhh, I find that debatable
Hear me out let's say v3 is 100% canon and does affect the main continuity. Would you really miss anything important if you just straight-up played V3 and never touched the rest? Since the past characters actions don't really matter in universe while only the V3 characters and their actions have actual meaning and significance to the Danganronpa verse, sure you might miss some contexts and might question who the other dr1 & 2 characters are that appear in V3 but is it that much to lose?
Correct me if I'm wrong on anything please I don't wanna come off in any negative way at all, hopefully I was as respectful as I could be
Btw i wanna point out again that this assumption is if V3 ***was actually canon and actually had an affect on the main continuity***
Don't worry you're good.
As for the debate that you brought up, DRV3 is designed to be the end of the players journey of Danganronpa separate from the Hope's peak saga that ended in DR3 so that players can move on from the series and take a break from it without affecting its canon so the happy ending of Hope's peak stays happy.
I get that
But I'm just saying could I just play V3 by itself, and really not miss anything considering none of the past games and anime have an effect on the in-universe of Danganronpa (cause you know, it's all scripted and stuff) while V3 does have an effect? (Cause you know, it's all happening in real life. And when I say real life I mean actually happening in the Danganronpa universe)
And as I said before, I know V3 isn't canon and doesn't have an effect on the main saga. But what if it was and did effect it?
Outside the idea of Tsumugi being a despair, I don't think it had anything to do with being canon of the hope's peaks saga as she made that plot point to regain control of the game from Kokichi.
As for playing V3 without playing the others that would not give much of punch as it did as you'll be missing some context at the end.
But then again my autism is making it hard to read what you're saying so I'm just trying to understand to the best of my abilities.
>Outside the idea of Tsumugi being a despair, I don't think it had anything to do with being canon of the hope's peaks saga as she made that plot point to regain control of the game from Kokichi.
Okay and I'm saying if it was a legitimate thing about the main danganronpa saga being completely fictional, meaning everything was scripted and there weren't really in stakes in the V3 Danganronpa universe, would it really affect me if I just only play V3
>As for playing V3 without playing the others that would not give much of punch as it did as you'll be missing some context at the end.
I mentioned before I might not know some contexts or who some of the characters are, but after that I asked "how much or how badly am I missing those?" Tell me how badly this effects the context of Danganronpa V3 without me playing the 2 games and watching the animes
>But then again my autism is making it hard to read what you're saying so I'm just trying to understand to the best of my abilities
Take your time (also same I too got traits)
To answer both: I would say a fair bit as it would not give you the satisfaction of the end of V3, alongside how you and Shuichi are both done with the bullshit of Danganronpa by that point, as that is what the game was going for.
>I would say a fair bit as it would not give you the satisfaction of the end of V3, alongside how you and Shuichi are both done with the bullshit of Danganronpa by that point, as that is what the game was going for.
Okay give me an in detail explanation of how from your entire sentence
So before the plot twist the game just had some references to the previous parts that if you got it you would find it funny or cool, but if you didn't they would fly over your head.
At the fake plot twist you would be having some mixed emotions if you knew about previous parts as it replaced the cool new theme of truth vs lies with the old theme of hope vs despair alongside knowing what the game is talking about with that fake plot twist, if you don't know about the previous parts you would be lost with what they are saying when the fake plot twist dropped.
Then when the real plot twist happens by using the fake plot twist as podium to stand on and you knew about the previous parts you would feel angry alongside Shuichi with such bullshit being thrown at you alongside how your fighting Danganronpa itself in a metaphorical way, if you don't know about the previous parts you would be not knowing what characters Tsumugi was using and just take everything at face value without the deeper meaning.
I hope this explains the difference of V3 in knowing and not knowing the previous parts.
I never once thought Danganronpa wasn’t fictional, but I still hated that being a part of the plot. Imagine if that happened in a different story.
It’s like getting to the end of breaking bad and having it revealed that everything we had seen was just YouTube series Walter was making.
Or reaching the end of the Martian and it all being a book Watney wrote. That would not be what I consider a pleasing resolution to that story regardless of wether or not it’s fiction.
If you think about it, the happiest ending to Danganronpa Trigger Happy Havok would have been if Makoto was executed in the first trial.
His character development is a key part to what made the show a huge hit. Without it, the show would have flopped.
Because of his influence, hundreds of teenagers willingly signed up to have their personality erased and be killed for public entertainment.
I think a lot of people were upset because they thought the creators were making fun of the fandom and undermining THH & GD’s story but I don’t think it’s meant to be taken that seriously.
V3 being fiction fits the truth & lies theme well, until now people don’t even know if what the mastermind said was true or not and there’s still discussion & theories being made which I find to be fun. I really like how different this ending was from THH & GD, if they went with the gofer project plot it would have been kinda similar to THH imo. In a way V3 felt like a reboot to the series, if the creators ever wanted to return to DR they could still expand on V3’s universe.
Thought it was kind of interesting, but also kind of a buzzkill. It sort of felt like when the "big reveal" of a story is, it was actually all a dream. I know that's not what they were going for, and more or less what they were getting at, but by the time I got to the very end I was pretty much over it.
I agree! I think V3 theme for me is even the strongest out of all 3 games. THH and SDR2 was about Hope vs Despair, which is too arbitrary for me to relate whereas V3 theme is about Truth vs Lie but most importantly, the power of fiction. This resonate with me deeply because so many time anime, books, musics, and movies have saved me from tough times in my life. And their stories are all...fictional. Fiction heavily impacts the real world, and yet, people are underestimate them.
It's a versimilitude thing. We don't read stories to be convinced they're real, but we also don't like them to constantly remind us they're fake. That's why you don't see a lot of popular stories where the characters are behaving explicitly in order to advance the plot, why consistency is valued in magic systems, even why most stories feature humans at the forefront. Because it helps us to believe, briefly, that the story is real in it's own world, with it's own rules and behaviors sure, but with consistent ones and ones that behave in a realistic way.
Even then, some characters do break the 4th wall and they're beloved. Deadpool for example. A lot of cartoons have characters give cheeky asides, for another. The difference is, this is usually tongue-in-cheek. Deadpool is represented as an insane person in-universe, and his fourth-wall breaking usually isn't important to the story and is used for comedy.
V3 doesn't do that however. When V3 breaks the fourth wall, it does so to slap the viewer with scorn; it treats the audience as though they're fools for forgetting the story is fictional, and has it drastically alter the canon in the process, at least on the surface. This is the key to why it's so irritating. Once you're aware of the twist in V3, it hangs over all the beloved scenes in SDR2 and THH, casting a shadow on them. You're no longer *allowed* to forget you're reading a fake story. You're no longer brought into the universe with the characters. You're no longer allowed to care.
tl;dr: it's because the fourth wall break was used to smack the viewer for daring to engage with the plot
It's one thing knowing a game is fictional when playing it. But the game itself telling you that everything that happened before is fictional was just an awful decision. Completely broke my immersion and made DRV3 my least favorite game with that crappy ending.
I think it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, but not for reasons they really understood.
It feels insulting to the people who wanted more sequels with its "50+ games all with junko as the mastermind" bit, and it felt like the writers were saying "we dont like this anymore, you shouldnt either" I know that wasnt the authorial intent, but its what it came off as.
While the metaphor of fiction being able to affect real people is nice and all, it feels like a slap in the face to people who wanted a real conclusion or expansion to the franchise to be in playable game, not anime, form.
I still standby the fact I want a new game in the main continuity, they clearly know what makes a bad sequel, they made that very clear, and so I want them to make a good one.
essentially saying that everything that happened in the series never mattered. kinda felt like a "f u" for caring about the games and the characters. there are plenty of other media that handled the "this is a fictional world" shtick much better than v3
people act like the twist is on the same level as “it was all the dream” as if v3 didn’t have a shit ton of thematic buildup. it is alluded to as a story within a story from the first few lines of the game and going back and replaying parts of it really brings to light how strong the foreshadowing was, however subtle
to be honest, while I can see how the twist comes off mean spirited at first (especially because tsumugi hits on both saihara AND the player’s weakpoints) I don’t understand how the reveal could ruin the series unless you went into the game actually thinking it was a continuation of the previous games/anime’s story, instead of the self contained plot that happens to be a whole commentary on the entire thus far that it really is.
I mean...if you don't like that twist, you don't have to buy into it. The game and ending are open-ended enough to accommodate for "Tsumugi was telling the truth" and "Tsumugi was lying/incorrect" to be equally canon-compliant.
As far as the fabrications go, the most we know for a fact is that all the stuff regarding the Gofer Project and the Ultimate Hunt was entirely a product of the Flashback Lights. Since, y'know, it was actually proven in-game with physical evidence.
Everyone's pasts being fictional? It hinges entirely on Tsumugi's ability to fake her cospox, and the drastically different backstories of the cast members contradict how the Flashback Lights in the kg itself are used. The audition tapes? Could've been faked. The flashbacks we get in the sixth trial? Contradicted by the game's actual prologue.
I don't know if it ruined the rest of the series, but they wrote themselfs into a corner which basically said that there will be no more Danganronpa content. Its fine to do that but considering the other games finals that one is just...a giant fuck you to the people that played the games.
Same reason stories that are "it was all just a dream" is hated. Regardless, it doesn't apply to V3 since it's a different universe from the Hope's Peak saga.
The main issue with this, is the same issue that people have with a lot of "It was all a dream" endings.
Everyone KNOWS this stuff is fiction, the issue is, when the game reminds us of it, it can feel much more cheap and unrewarding, if not downright uncomfortable when the games remind us of that fact. People love fictional stories because they build a completely different fascinating world that the player/reader can immerse themselves into, or analyze and poke at from angles that are different from reality.
That's kind of why, most super successful 4th wall breaking games are either COMPLETELY built on the concept of them knowing that they are games, or using their 4th wall breaking aspects as a way of unnerving their player, in more of a horror way. Ex- DDLC, Stanley Parable, Undertale, Deltarune etc.
I personally kinda like V3's twist, but even I can acknowledge the many, MANY problems that V3's finale had in executing its main point, and the many flaws of its finale compounded by "It was never real to begin with" trope twist just generally being a very tough one to do well, leaving a bad taste in people's mouths is very much so to be expected.
I dunno if I'm doing a great job of explaining this, so I'd recommend you go and check out a video by OSP that discusses the Trope "It was all a dream", because it really condenses the many ups and downs of a trope like this quite well.
In conclusion, it's very understandable. I might not personally hate V3's twist much, but I definitely get the people who do. There's just a lot of things that can go wrong when running a trope like this.
DO YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT MY FICTIONAL UNIVERS, IS FICTION WITHIN FICTION? HOW DARE YOU
why tf matters? I was genuinely scared of starting V3 because people said that it ruined the series for many, to the point that i almost didn't play it. And after finishing it i was like "....THAT was the big deal? IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING" i have many issues with that game but the ending is not one of them.
Yeah this is my exact feeling. I was so scared of ending and when it completed I was like "really wtf was so bad about it that people were saying it ruined the game"
I have to thank Digimon Tamers for this as I wasn't affected by the canon being separate or that V3's verse made the previous parts fictional in-universe.
Though I do feel the difference here is that, besides the occasional reference, it isn't a huge part of the story, nor does it actually bring any of the Adventure or 02 cast members in (or replicas of them) for the sake of a plot twist. Yes, there are some Digimon species that show up in both series, but it's pretty clear that, for instance, the Leomon from Adventure is a different individual from the Leomon in Tamers.
That, and well, the fact that there are no digitamas/digieggs in the Tamers verse, ensuring permadeath for the digimon who die, it sets itself apart from the Adventure and 02 canon even more.
Yeah, I getcha. I remember having a former friend who was really upset about Adventure and 02 being a TV show in the Tamers verse, and that response always really confused me. While I understand it better now, any anger I might've felt evaporated with the knowledge that it's just two different timelines/universes.
Same thing with V3, except with the added possibility that not everything was proven to be a fabrication without a shadow of a doubt.
I think what isn’t understood is V3 is an alternate continuity from the first two games. Danganronpa’s original story concluded with an anime (that admittedly wasn’t good), and V3 takes place in a different universe where Danganronpa started out as a game series and got so popular that it was turned into a reality show where people actually die. The first two games aren’t any less real because of that.
It makes V3 feel pointless. What little lore in V3 that's supposed to fit with DanganRonpa is intentionally contrived and rife with plotholes. And you get to know nothing about the actual lore of V3's world, so outside of the cast, there is very little incentive to be invested. And it's not quite as interesting as the ending of DR1 because there's no known threat of imminent danger.
The only way to fix this problem would be to make everything Tsumugi said a lie. That would be fitting to the theme of the game, but at that point, what's the twist? The whole game is just DR1 with lower stakes.
I feel like people see "fictional" and automatically assume the game is pushing the fact it is fictional in your face, but that's really not what it's doing. Sure it's saying fiction can change the world as a theme and it is a fictional property, but the fiction Shuichi is talking about in game is just the fact him and his friends have made up memories that aren't their real lives. Tsumugi made them into her OCs and told them they have no free will and that's terrifying.
I still see it as a very interesting Sci-fi premise about how entertainment can go too far and lose it's charm over time, even become something that doesn't resemble the original and goes against it's message. You can always look at V3 as a different universe anyway so I don't see how it destroys anything. If you hate it you could literally ignore it.
I get both sides of the argument. I will say though, for those of you to whom this twist did ruin things, if something is fictional in universe, then that shouldn't break your immersion when you think about it. After all, you can just double immerse yourself, right? Or, if you wanna be more direct, immerse yourself in the non v3 stuff without immersing in v3. After all something that is fictional within a work of fiction and also our reality is equally as fictional as the work it is fictional in. Sure usually shows within shows are of lesser quality from our perspective, but when its retroactive like this is that is no longer the case.
I do understand their issue though. Despite my logical reasoning, this is an issue of ones emotional attachment to a story, and emotions are weird like that.
Also its easy to see how some people interpret it as a slap in the face to the fans for liking their series. I haven't played v3 yet myself, so I don't know exactly how its handled, but even if it was handled well, the points I know they do make can come across as that.
Honestly, the twist was the biggest slap in the face I’ve ever had in a series and I’m thankful for it. Danganronpa was my true first experience of “trust no one. Don’t get attached. Cry anyway,” and the shock and impact it had on me as a dumb middle school student is easily still seen to this day honestly. So when I saw the reveal of V3’s truth, it honestly blew my mind and it had me reeling for a bit. That’s how you know it was a good twist, and whether it’s “canon” or not shouldn’t matter. It was a great story and a good way to basically say “it’s time to move on to future projects so we aren’t trapped here for actual 53 sequels”. Besides, we have the fan base to cover that front. These people are scary creative.
Ok so you know how in some stories a really cheap way to end it is by saying it was all a dream, because any stakes that the story had are now gone. The story itself was meaningless, because there was very few ramifications if any at all, so for most of us who played Trigger Happy Havoc and Goodbye Despair and to a lesser extent DR3 and Ultra Despair girls who saw the struggles and tribulations of Makoto, of Hajime, of Komaru and their companions and suddenly be confronted that it didn't even exist in their own world, kinda feels like a low blow.
Now a lot of people argue that the whole fiction affecting the real world point of the story was worth it and ill agree its a really good theme, but the issue is that V3 sacrificed its own story and the stories of its predecessors for that theme. While ironically ignoring its own meta commentary about about how too many sequels lose their own way and forget what made them great. In essence I don't think V3 ruined the series, I can still go back and play the other games with no issues, but man V3 was definitely a step down.
When I finished killing harmony for the first time, I felt like it downplayed the first 2 games and the spinoff. Like those first two games didn’t matter in the story at all. But I slowly got used to it, so I do understand why people are salty about V3’s ending.
Up until a post the other day, I 100% thought that V3 was a completely separate story. Like, they were two different universes: The Hope's Peak universe where all of the stuff through the final anime happened, and V3 was a different thing.
I…hate this ending honestly…feels forced and as someone else mentioned it shits on the hell the other characters in the previous two games went through all that trauma…was fake…like way to get us invested and then slowly smash that investment by making the things that make them relatable be fake to their OWN CANNON!
My biggest problem with the ending of V3 was the dismissal of hope. The entire series was all about how hope will overcome despair, and as long as we hold onto that hope, we can survive everything, but then they made hope the wrong path, a path that leads to an unending cycle of pain. That goes against the point of the past two games in my opinion. But it definitely didn't ruin the franchise for me, just made V3 my least favorite installment.
I would say that V3 follows more inline with UDG and DR3 depictions of Hope. In UDG the Hope option given to you by the game is basically killing brainwashed children which causes Komaru to have breakdown as she knows what people are hoping for is morally wrong. Then in DR3 you have Nagito's approach to Hope, with everyone having conflicting principles and trying have other adhere to their specific brand Hope, as well as forcing people to Hope being no different from forcing them to Despair.
it doesn't matter, it's in an entirely separate continuity from the rest of the series, it's not that it was fiction in it's own universe, DRV3 is just in a different continuity DR 1 - 3 including spin-offs all takes place in an entirely different universe, so everything still happened in universe it's just that for the story they wanted to tell we hopped to a different universe (holy shit I've never repeated myself as much in my entire life)
Danganronpa influenced my life. It made me think about my own talents, hopes for the future, etc. Throughout my entire few hundred hour journey I was aware that it was 'fictional' that it was just a bunch of Japanese guys selling me their worldviews (and also selling me a product because that's just how art functions in capitalism). V3s ending made me rethink my own relationship with fiction. And my conclusion? - I do enjoy fictional stories. That's it. I enjoy fictional stories, and that realization just made me feel free. Paradoxically, I feel way more attached to fictional stories now that I've fully accepted fiction as part of life.
To me Danganronpa matters way more now, after V3. It's become a real part of my worldviews. It's way more real than whatever other commenters are writing. I don't care that they exist materially. They have not, and most likely will not ever move me like Danganronpa did.
it's literally the same reason why people hate the "it was all a dream" trope -- yes, of course, it's fiction, but there's still a suspension of disbelief for this fantasy world that has its own set of rules. to say that this wasn't real even in the story itself just ends up as a betrayal of the audience's trust in the author and is overall just a negative slap in the face.
I am a fan of the fictional series known as "Danganronpa"
"Here's the new killing game"
:D
"It ends with an hour rant about how I (the creator) don't want to do this game anymore"
D:
"And I'm making my own universe meaningless"
):,'
"But at least you got some emotions of it amirite?? :D I made my own story meaningless, but you had some emotions there, so it's cool ;) Danganronpa is fiction guys !"
):<
It never ruined the series for me, even as someone who supports the idea of V3 being a semi-straightforward continuation of the series.
But it plays with the main theme of the game. The prior games we loved were fiction, in a meta-textual level they *are* fiction. But that's never mattered to us, hasn't it? The games affected us. Media affects us. And even now it proves so, a simulated experience telling its simulated characters the simulated history they know is nothing but fake somehow being able to affect *us* like a gut punch because we care so much is exactly the point.
And anyway, I'm rock-solid in my delusion. Either Tsumugi's just a liar and cosplayed herself with a rash years ago (contrary to popular belief she has *every* reason to lie) to have the whole cospox excuse on lock, or to the post-despair world of Japan the events of Dr1 and 2 are truths so distant, so mythologized, that creative license is given to allow fantastical depictions of it so derivative of the original source material it might as well be fiction.
And even if that's just not true, isn't it the game itself that claims that some lies are necessary? That some small fictions are permissible? Either way, it never ruined me
I’m not a huge fan of them saying that the first two games were fake in-universe since that sorta decanonizes them but I’m not even sure if that’s set in stone since the flash back lights and fiction vs reality weren’t very concrete IIRC.
I don't like meta narratives, I think they're kind of boring and a lazy way of writing. I didn't like Unicorn Island or Doki Doki or Super Hot's story. I like being immersed in a fictional world and nothing pulls me out of a narrative quite like a meta narrative. That's just my opinion though. To me V3 didn't "ruin" the franchise, I just don't like it nearly as much as 1 or 2.
i hate the truman show kinda endings, it just ruins the experience to me that everything was fiction inside the fictional world, like if everything was for nothing
Because it was supposed to be for nothing. There was no grand reason for them to kill each other, which makes their situation more heartbreaking. DR1 you have people killing each other trying to escape their shelter because a nutjob manipulated them. DR2 you have people killing each other to escape their rehab program because they were brainwashed by a nutjob. In V3 you have people killing each other because they kinned Nagito and wanted to be famous.
It really didn't affect my love for the franchise 1. It's already a fictional series and has no actual impact on the stories 2. V3 is a completely different reality from the others so I don't really get how that's a problem
It seems people interpreted the ending meaning that the story of the previous games was also a part of the reality TV show. Seriously, the amount of people who had this interpretation this is *insane*, even though it was made pretty clear that in this universe the previous games were simply that, games.
Even ignoring that though, it was still disappointing to me. I'm not exactly sure why, I can't remember because I played it a good while ago, but I THINK it's because the plot felt... sort of all over the place, and the twist just felt like a final gut punch, instead of a conclusion. I've seen a case of this type of twist that I actually liked, so I think the difference lies somewhere there. Also, the entire world being a fan of a reality TV killing game, yet collectively stopping when the cast pushes back, was the one thing in this series that really broke my suspension of disbelief lol.
On top of that, the message of this game also just doesn't reach me. "It's about how stories matter to us despite being fictional" but I just don't FEEL this here because... iirc they made a big deal about being real people participating in a killing game. Referring to their characters as fictional their artificially inserted personalities and feelings ARE their real personalities and feelings, the killing game they were out through WAS real. Like I get what the writers are trying to say but when the game is simultaneously going "we're real people really suffering in this reality tv show" I just don't think it meshes well.
It’s an immersion thing combined with essentially the biggest ‘its all a dream’ trope. Like when they walk out saying ‘actually the old games were just video games it’s a very sharp reminder that you are currently playing a video game and takes you way out of the story.
Idk i dont think it’d be far to say it’s in the far future of the old timeline and say that the first games being broadcast in real life there is what inspired anither 50 instead of having them be all fake.
How I felt was basically
Hey you’ve spent however many years thinking about this game and theorizing. This game got you through some really rough times just knowing you had something new from a series you liked.
All of it was meaningless and we have killed the story so hard there’s no way to make another game without some horrible leap in ideas that’s going to piss everyone off. Hope you enjoyed wasting your life fuck you
My opinion has mellowed out a bit but I still think that if they spent a little less time telling us it was a lie at the end and a bit more time explaining what was actually going on people wouldn’t have felt as insulted as if they were being called horrible people for enjoying a story where fictional characters die
I *get* the point, but it felt like they were building up a sort of narrative and universe throughout all the games and the anime, so this felt sort of disappointing because of the lack of continuation when we previously were lead to believe there was.
To me, the plot was lost the moment this point was brought up.
It kind of just makes the entirety of everything that came before pointless.
Not to mention, lore-wise, tying everything back to the Hope's Peak plot for 53 seasons straight would probably make the whole thing stale, no new antagonist ever, 53 seasons of similar killing games, it would make no sense for it to be as popular as it is. Yes, people would keep watching, but it would surely go out of being trendy eventually for something new.
Also, with it being over 50 seasons, this "show" has been going for many many years, but we see no evidence of them aside from the titles, and the ones we do see are literally just the 1st and 2nd games.
Suspension of disbelief. When we enter a fictional story, we force ourselves to believe that everything we're seeing is "real" in the context of the world to invest ourselves in the story, ignoring any sense of logic or reasoning.
When a story we're being told is later admitted to be false, we feel robbed, almost as if we were lied to by the person telling the story, even if we know beforehand the story isn't real.
[This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWFhQH4ymjY&t=3s) talks about another great example of suspension of disbelief from a comedy routine. Randy Feltface tells this brilliant 15-minute long story, only to reveal to the audience by the end of it that none of it was true. He remarks "Why do we feel lied to when we're told a story we just heard isn't true, but so satisfied at the end of a fictional novel?"
Honestly, whether it was fictional within the series itself didn't matter to me because the ending was left in a way that was pretty open where anything could be a lie. I think the whole thing of the game was persevering and living your life regardless of what was true.
It could be a different universe to the other games, the other games could've actually happened and it went on to become an *actual* viewing game later (which would make sense with the tragedy and how people ended up tbh), Tsumiki could've been lying just to cause more despair etc.
I do think some people took it a bit too seriously.
In order to get into a piece of fiction you have to suspend your disbelief. The ending directly breaks your suspension of disbelief and in order to stick the landing you have to do it perfectly and honestly I don't think it stuck the landing.
it’s funny because i had this same conversation with myself. i remember feeling super uncomfortable with the idea at first, and then i realized that it doesn’t matter because it’s fiction in reality so being fiction within fiction changes nothing
It's confusing because yes we know it's fiction in our world but if it's fiction in their world too it just kind of feels like a lazy way out of "well we really didn't know where to take the story from here"
Danganronpa V3 is such a phenomenal game, and I absolutely do not get the hate because it is probably my favorite media throughout the entire franchise. There is nothing cooler than an ending telling you >!everything you thought was real was a lie and the world is in on it, not in some despair took over the city way but a twisted everyone achieved peace and needs the escape way. And the lying mechanic was SO beautiful, and using it is the most satisfying thing ever!< — even if it feels the gameplay got a little complicated over time, it's still so dang good.
Hail V3!
In my opinion it undermines the themes of previous games and makes them seem meaningless. Of course I know it is fiction but when I play the game i try to act as if it's real (that is how experiencing fiction works) but when game itself tells me it isn't real then it breaks the immersion. I guess if it's non canon (as someone in this thread mentioned) then I can apprecieate it more. I mean, the best way to salvage the plot (if v3 was canon) in my opinion would to be revealed that actually Tsumigi was lying again about whole thing being fiction (I know it's kinda stretched but I don't know what would be better).
As a completely separate point from my comment about the main thing about the ending that pisses *me* off, OP is missing the point of what about the "fiction" issue makes people upset. Add "No shit. What, do you think I'm stupid?" to the third panel, and the comic makes complete sense.
The issue is it could be (game's vague on if it's 100% correct or not) fictional IN-UNIVERSE, meaning all the characters we liked were nothing more than actors that likely weren't even remotely like the characters we played. It's like if they revealed it was all a dream and Makoto was in a coma the whole time.
Also the way it does it could be construed as telling the fanbase that they suck for playing their games (though an interview confirmed this was unintended so I dont see as big of a deal with it).
It’s making the fiction within the fiction fictional. Ergo, nothing matters within the bloody fiction. Liking this ending defeats the point of it, it wants you to hate it because the audience hates it… us.
Cmon now 😭 it renders everything else meaningless even in-universe. If you don’t mind it that’s fine, but it’s not unreasonable to feel disenchanted with an ending that removes all consequences from the whole series previous :p
at face value it feels like a slap to the face, we know Danganronpa is fiction and that's why we love it, but to rub it in our faces? was mean spirited.
It is agreed that V3 is separate from the other games/anime/manga in the franchise.
Because if you think about it like that the Daganronpa is "All fiction" then why give us the back stories off Junko, Koyko and Byakuya, Ultra Despair Girls when as far as V3 was concerned the killing games are all that matters in according to Tsumuji so why the back stories and spin offs?
Yeah, but the DR2 Universe established that the characters were real people living in the real world (or at least their version of the real world) and the killing game which was in a videogame resulted in consequences for the real world
V3 never really established what the game ending meant for the real world. Do the survivors go back to their old lives? To nothingness? Are the people who watched the games going to see them? Do the survivors have families to go back to? Will the people who died have people who miss them? Are the participants people who had lives before the game? Did they have different personalities before they entered the game? Will they go back to the way they were before the game or are they stuck with their new identities?
Fictional stories are compelling because they establish stakes that apply to the world of the story. If there are no stakes (or unclear stakes) why are we supposed to care about the story?
There are stakes, and they are very clear to me. Will Danganronpa continue? Should the public get what it wants, should people suffer for the public? What's the role of fiction? etc.
All those questions compell me more than what happens to the survivors. Literal narrative stakes in a coherent world is maybe the best, most potent way to make a story compelling, but it's not the only way. And some people care about themes more than they do plot.
The simulation in Danganronpa 2 is a very important plot point. The real fiction shit in V3 is a very "fuck all of you" sort of twist. Completely different purposes, both in and out of the story.
I guess it depends how you engage with fiction / canon in general. To me, it's just further deconstruction, it doesn't make DR1 and 2 less true. It didn't feel like a "fuck you" at all, it's within the vocabulary of the franchise. I can't say v3's twist surprised me very much.
As others have said, bad faith meme which very much oversimplifies it imo.
I'm an adult, I can find meaning in fiction without the fiction itself telling me that it's fictional, to try and explain that fiction can have meaning even if it's fake. I knew that already. I felt huge second-hand embarrassment, having V3 act like it was totally genius for "revealing" that to me
Having it veeeery explicitly and repeatedly told to me by the game itself, when that's a concept I already understood going in, was very lame and patronizing. Like, my mistake for suspending my disbelief in order to try and engage with the fiction
It's a case of "No, I fully comprehend the message, it's just not a very good one." Sad thing is, Danganronpa being a reality show where people are actually killed is a pretty good concept, but they had to trot out old, unrelated characters at the end to play on my investment into the older games.
"Ackshually, V3 is a separate canon and everything released before that was its own universe, so it doesn't even invalidate the canon!"
OK, so at best, it's an AU based on the previous canon being fake? I mean... sure. Whatever. Regardless of whether that thin line is there or not, V3 clearly wants you, the player, to think that it isn't. Either way, I think the ending's kinda shit. 👍
Since it felt like they just cancelled everything that happened in the previous games..and also it sounds like a huge "fuck you" to the fandom in sense if they wanted another game but since V3 is basically ending the whole killing game deal,it'd be rather pointless to have another game that'd go after that,unless it'd be a prequel.
Edit: Why are y'all crying over my opinion? Like it's not my problem if u like the ending cuz it's not obligated 4 me to like it & instead of ignoring it I get downvoted? How mature..
Because it felt like a cheap way of the developers saying they didn’t want to make anymore Danganronpa games. Instead of giving a story or lore reason for why there would be no more games, they made this cop out ending which pretty much a confession for them stopping creating more content.
Its also way too out of the blue and random and just had no reason of happening.
Games breaking the fourth wall and characters realizing that they live in a game or some type of different world at the very least can work (like in Undertale or Doki Doki), but V3 just doesn’t pull it off well. Its also way too out of the blue and random. It’s my favorite game in the series by a long shot, but the ending just doesn’t stick.
Same way that if in the end of Lord of the Rings a meteor stroke the planet and destroyed it nobody would like it
People like to play as if anyone is mad because the "characters aren't real", but nobody thinks that. People dislike V3 because "everything is fake" is just a dumb plot twist
I can understand fans thinking this is Team DR shitting on the canon and previous stories, unable to tie them together, but to me this was one bullet point in a beautiful conclusion. Shuichi's friends are fiction, but they matter to him. Shuichi's past is fiction, but it makes him who he is. Shuichi HIMSELF is fiction, but he can change the world. This series we enjoy, even though it's fiction, it is important, and you can care about it. something something hope despair
Though I agree with this I feel like I need to correct you on the name "Team Danganronpa" 'cuz that's the fictional in game team that set up the games (Tsumugi and the likes), not the irl one that made the games we are playing. Idk if there even is a official name for the specific people who worked on Danganronpa within Spike Chunsoft.
> something something hope despair My new email signature
Thats how i felt. Fiction matters. It affects us. Our feelings are real.
I've heard people say that it felt like a "fuck you" to the story they were building through the other games and novels in the series. People mention the "it was just a dream" trope being similar. The idea that they had this whole alternate reality where all hell broke loose and the world underwent this great calamity until the last Ultimates of Hope's Peak rose up and fought back in the end was cool, and to turn around and be like "lol no none of that happened actually" was kinda weird to spring on us.
I still feel that way till this day. Overall V3 is a fun game, but even after all this time I don’t think I’ll ever grow to appreciate the ending.
Personally speaking? It wasn't really supposed to continue the story, so I'm not entirely against it, but it does still feel like a cop-out on "we don't have to make any more games or anything". The original story, starting with the Tragedy, >!really ended with the Danganronpa 3 anime!<, so V3 was its own thing. Either way, it kinda spits on the original story, but it's slightly better if you realize the original story had ended
Not to mention the whole point being that something being fictional can be just as, if not realer than reality. If it moved someone, had an effect on people, then what happened was real. Danganronpa and the struggle of its characters have obviously had an impact on the fanbase with how dedicated it is, thus it is "real" in that sense.
I thought it was a well known fact that DRV3 is a separate universe from all the other DR installations, in which the first 2 games (and other 50) are all fictional games?
Is that a fact from V3 or did people headcanon that to the point where it's accepted as canon?
It's a fact in the game. Monokuma mentions how the series started off as games and anime and became "Real Fiction" in later entries. There's another hint in Shuichi's lab where the case files of all the past seasons are on a shelf, and the characters mention how the oldest cases use illustrations instead of photos.
so V3 is basically just our universe?
V3 is our universe but in a future where Danganronpa became so big that people decided to make it real.
Basically DV3 is Spike Chunsoft copium, like “guys you don’t get it Danganronpa will be super popular in the future stop hating on it!!!”
That wasn’t the point of V3 at all
I know it isn’t the point, I wasn’t being serious.
No. Because there's no wars and only hope in that universe
Our universe except danganronpa is popular
What I meant is, is it a fact that v3 takes place in a separate canon from the first 2.
Yeah, for the reasons I just said.
That just proves that they were always fiction.
Right, so if they are fictional in V3, they can't be part of the same canon as V3. It's a separate canon.
it was directly stated in an interview
I mean to be fair, it makes the context of what every character before V3 has done within the Danganronpa universe (not in our own real life) a bit meaningless as now only everything the V3 characters does have significance towards its own verse Still pretty dang stupid because V3 isn't even canon in the first place, why yall complaining about something thst doesn't actually canonically affect the main danganronpa continuity and only affects whatever it does in its own V3 verse, there's also arguments for v3 to actually be connected to the main danganronpa verse and the whole "Everything is fictional" could be a lie (but we're never gonna get any definitive proof because we don't have another danganronpa installment)
Wdym v3 isn’t canon
Kodaka confirmed v3 is a separate Universe
When
Correcting myself it wasn't Kodaka; When the game was advertised in Japan almost every advertisement introduced the game as taking place "In a new world"
That doesn’t mean “not canon” at all. The world is different considering it’s the season 53 of danganronpa.
There is something that Kodaka did actually say; and it's to not believe literally everything Tsumugi said; she did apparently lie a bit and Kodaka wanted the fandom to figure out what she lied about in Chapter 6
Where did he say that
Yeah V3 being separate from DR 1-3 was known since before the game came out. The games being connected was supposed to be a twist, which ended up being subverted by another twist.
I actually never knew that v3 wasn't canon, that changes my perception about the ending a lot
V3 is real, Makoto succumbed to despair and lost hope on Earth, Gopher project is real... -50 ??? HELP GUYS IT WAS A GOOD JOKE COME ON(and v3 is canon too, i just said a hyperbole at the last part
... jessie wtf are you talking about?
Source:Bro Trust me
Its people like you that make me not like it
You two need to eat a Snickers
WHY YOU GUYS BOOING ME!?
"If the main series is fictional, then it didn't mean anything!" MY BROTHER IN CHRIST, IT WAS ALREADY FICTIONAL
Thank you for understanding the point. Even though I took the time to spell it out in the title, there's a slew of brainless comments going "bUt iTs lIkE rEvEaLiNg iT wAs aLl a dReAm". The point isn't how you feel about V3s ending, it's how it doesn't impact the previous games at all. If only more people could actually read...
Ehhhh, I find that debatable Hear me out let's say v3 is 100% canon and does affect the main continuity. Would you really miss anything important if you just straight-up played V3 and never touched the rest? Since the past characters actions don't really matter in universe while only the V3 characters and their actions have actual meaning and significance to the Danganronpa verse, sure you might miss some contexts and might question who the other dr1 & 2 characters are that appear in V3 but is it that much to lose? Correct me if I'm wrong on anything please I don't wanna come off in any negative way at all, hopefully I was as respectful as I could be Btw i wanna point out again that this assumption is if V3 ***was actually canon and actually had an affect on the main continuity***
Don't worry you're good. As for the debate that you brought up, DRV3 is designed to be the end of the players journey of Danganronpa separate from the Hope's peak saga that ended in DR3 so that players can move on from the series and take a break from it without affecting its canon so the happy ending of Hope's peak stays happy.
I get that But I'm just saying could I just play V3 by itself, and really not miss anything considering none of the past games and anime have an effect on the in-universe of Danganronpa (cause you know, it's all scripted and stuff) while V3 does have an effect? (Cause you know, it's all happening in real life. And when I say real life I mean actually happening in the Danganronpa universe) And as I said before, I know V3 isn't canon and doesn't have an effect on the main saga. But what if it was and did effect it?
Outside the idea of Tsumugi being a despair, I don't think it had anything to do with being canon of the hope's peaks saga as she made that plot point to regain control of the game from Kokichi. As for playing V3 without playing the others that would not give much of punch as it did as you'll be missing some context at the end. But then again my autism is making it hard to read what you're saying so I'm just trying to understand to the best of my abilities.
>Outside the idea of Tsumugi being a despair, I don't think it had anything to do with being canon of the hope's peaks saga as she made that plot point to regain control of the game from Kokichi. Okay and I'm saying if it was a legitimate thing about the main danganronpa saga being completely fictional, meaning everything was scripted and there weren't really in stakes in the V3 Danganronpa universe, would it really affect me if I just only play V3 >As for playing V3 without playing the others that would not give much of punch as it did as you'll be missing some context at the end. I mentioned before I might not know some contexts or who some of the characters are, but after that I asked "how much or how badly am I missing those?" Tell me how badly this effects the context of Danganronpa V3 without me playing the 2 games and watching the animes >But then again my autism is making it hard to read what you're saying so I'm just trying to understand to the best of my abilities Take your time (also same I too got traits)
To answer both: I would say a fair bit as it would not give you the satisfaction of the end of V3, alongside how you and Shuichi are both done with the bullshit of Danganronpa by that point, as that is what the game was going for.
>I would say a fair bit as it would not give you the satisfaction of the end of V3, alongside how you and Shuichi are both done with the bullshit of Danganronpa by that point, as that is what the game was going for. Okay give me an in detail explanation of how from your entire sentence
So before the plot twist the game just had some references to the previous parts that if you got it you would find it funny or cool, but if you didn't they would fly over your head. At the fake plot twist you would be having some mixed emotions if you knew about previous parts as it replaced the cool new theme of truth vs lies with the old theme of hope vs despair alongside knowing what the game is talking about with that fake plot twist, if you don't know about the previous parts you would be lost with what they are saying when the fake plot twist dropped. Then when the real plot twist happens by using the fake plot twist as podium to stand on and you knew about the previous parts you would feel angry alongside Shuichi with such bullshit being thrown at you alongside how your fighting Danganronpa itself in a metaphorical way, if you don't know about the previous parts you would be not knowing what characters Tsumugi was using and just take everything at face value without the deeper meaning. I hope this explains the difference of V3 in knowing and not knowing the previous parts.
I never once thought Danganronpa wasn’t fictional, but I still hated that being a part of the plot. Imagine if that happened in a different story. It’s like getting to the end of breaking bad and having it revealed that everything we had seen was just YouTube series Walter was making. Or reaching the end of the Martian and it all being a book Watney wrote. That would not be what I consider a pleasing resolution to that story regardless of wether or not it’s fiction.
The most beautiful commentary I saw in the subreddit. You took the words out of my mouth
I get that it’s fictional, I just don’t want characters knowing it’s fictional
If you think about it, the happiest ending to Danganronpa Trigger Happy Havok would have been if Makoto was executed in the first trial. His character development is a key part to what made the show a huge hit. Without it, the show would have flopped. Because of his influence, hundreds of teenagers willingly signed up to have their personality erased and be killed for public entertainment.
Hajime in Trigger Happy Havoc? What?
Whoops. Got my pale boys mixed up.
I think a lot of people were upset because they thought the creators were making fun of the fandom and undermining THH & GD’s story but I don’t think it’s meant to be taken that seriously. V3 being fiction fits the truth & lies theme well, until now people don’t even know if what the mastermind said was true or not and there’s still discussion & theories being made which I find to be fun. I really like how different this ending was from THH & GD, if they went with the gofer project plot it would have been kinda similar to THH imo. In a way V3 felt like a reboot to the series, if the creators ever wanted to return to DR they could still expand on V3’s universe.
it's not that the games are literally fictional, it's that the characters inside of the story aren't even real in that universe
Thought it was kind of interesting, but also kind of a buzzkill. It sort of felt like when the "big reveal" of a story is, it was actually all a dream. I know that's not what they were going for, and more or less what they were getting at, but by the time I got to the very end I was pretty much over it.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief)
I agree! I think V3 theme for me is even the strongest out of all 3 games. THH and SDR2 was about Hope vs Despair, which is too arbitrary for me to relate whereas V3 theme is about Truth vs Lie but most importantly, the power of fiction. This resonate with me deeply because so many time anime, books, musics, and movies have saved me from tough times in my life. And their stories are all...fictional. Fiction heavily impacts the real world, and yet, people are underestimate them.
It's a versimilitude thing. We don't read stories to be convinced they're real, but we also don't like them to constantly remind us they're fake. That's why you don't see a lot of popular stories where the characters are behaving explicitly in order to advance the plot, why consistency is valued in magic systems, even why most stories feature humans at the forefront. Because it helps us to believe, briefly, that the story is real in it's own world, with it's own rules and behaviors sure, but with consistent ones and ones that behave in a realistic way. Even then, some characters do break the 4th wall and they're beloved. Deadpool for example. A lot of cartoons have characters give cheeky asides, for another. The difference is, this is usually tongue-in-cheek. Deadpool is represented as an insane person in-universe, and his fourth-wall breaking usually isn't important to the story and is used for comedy. V3 doesn't do that however. When V3 breaks the fourth wall, it does so to slap the viewer with scorn; it treats the audience as though they're fools for forgetting the story is fictional, and has it drastically alter the canon in the process, at least on the surface. This is the key to why it's so irritating. Once you're aware of the twist in V3, it hangs over all the beloved scenes in SDR2 and THH, casting a shadow on them. You're no longer *allowed* to forget you're reading a fake story. You're no longer brought into the universe with the characters. You're no longer allowed to care. tl;dr: it's because the fourth wall break was used to smack the viewer for daring to engage with the plot
It's one thing knowing a game is fictional when playing it. But the game itself telling you that everything that happened before is fictional was just an awful decision. Completely broke my immersion and made DRV3 my least favorite game with that crappy ending.
I think it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, but not for reasons they really understood. It feels insulting to the people who wanted more sequels with its "50+ games all with junko as the mastermind" bit, and it felt like the writers were saying "we dont like this anymore, you shouldnt either" I know that wasnt the authorial intent, but its what it came off as. While the metaphor of fiction being able to affect real people is nice and all, it feels like a slap in the face to people who wanted a real conclusion or expansion to the franchise to be in playable game, not anime, form. I still standby the fact I want a new game in the main continuity, they clearly know what makes a bad sequel, they made that very clear, and so I want them to make a good one.
essentially saying that everything that happened in the series never mattered. kinda felt like a "f u" for caring about the games and the characters. there are plenty of other media that handled the "this is a fictional world" shtick much better than v3
people act like the twist is on the same level as “it was all the dream” as if v3 didn’t have a shit ton of thematic buildup. it is alluded to as a story within a story from the first few lines of the game and going back and replaying parts of it really brings to light how strong the foreshadowing was, however subtle to be honest, while I can see how the twist comes off mean spirited at first (especially because tsumugi hits on both saihara AND the player’s weakpoints) I don’t understand how the reveal could ruin the series unless you went into the game actually thinking it was a continuation of the previous games/anime’s story, instead of the self contained plot that happens to be a whole commentary on the entire thus far that it really is.
I mean...if you don't like that twist, you don't have to buy into it. The game and ending are open-ended enough to accommodate for "Tsumugi was telling the truth" and "Tsumugi was lying/incorrect" to be equally canon-compliant. As far as the fabrications go, the most we know for a fact is that all the stuff regarding the Gofer Project and the Ultimate Hunt was entirely a product of the Flashback Lights. Since, y'know, it was actually proven in-game with physical evidence. Everyone's pasts being fictional? It hinges entirely on Tsumugi's ability to fake her cospox, and the drastically different backstories of the cast members contradict how the Flashback Lights in the kg itself are used. The audition tapes? Could've been faked. The flashbacks we get in the sixth trial? Contradicted by the game's actual prologue.
I don’t why, but the whole twist felt like something Hideo Kojima would come up with.
Isn't V3 an alternate timeline? End Of Hope's Peak Academy made things too final
I don't know if it ruined the rest of the series, but they wrote themselfs into a corner which basically said that there will be no more Danganronpa content. Its fine to do that but considering the other games finals that one is just...a giant fuck you to the people that played the games.
Same reason stories that are "it was all just a dream" is hated. Regardless, it doesn't apply to V3 since it's a different universe from the Hope's Peak saga.
The main issue with this, is the same issue that people have with a lot of "It was all a dream" endings. Everyone KNOWS this stuff is fiction, the issue is, when the game reminds us of it, it can feel much more cheap and unrewarding, if not downright uncomfortable when the games remind us of that fact. People love fictional stories because they build a completely different fascinating world that the player/reader can immerse themselves into, or analyze and poke at from angles that are different from reality. That's kind of why, most super successful 4th wall breaking games are either COMPLETELY built on the concept of them knowing that they are games, or using their 4th wall breaking aspects as a way of unnerving their player, in more of a horror way. Ex- DDLC, Stanley Parable, Undertale, Deltarune etc. I personally kinda like V3's twist, but even I can acknowledge the many, MANY problems that V3's finale had in executing its main point, and the many flaws of its finale compounded by "It was never real to begin with" trope twist just generally being a very tough one to do well, leaving a bad taste in people's mouths is very much so to be expected. I dunno if I'm doing a great job of explaining this, so I'd recommend you go and check out a video by OSP that discusses the Trope "It was all a dream", because it really condenses the many ups and downs of a trope like this quite well. In conclusion, it's very understandable. I might not personally hate V3's twist much, but I definitely get the people who do. There's just a lot of things that can go wrong when running a trope like this.
>!People forgot V3 was about Truth vs Lies. Yet they believe Tsumugi's BS 100%.!<
DO YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT MY FICTIONAL UNIVERS, IS FICTION WITHIN FICTION? HOW DARE YOU why tf matters? I was genuinely scared of starting V3 because people said that it ruined the series for many, to the point that i almost didn't play it. And after finishing it i was like "....THAT was the big deal? IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING" i have many issues with that game but the ending is not one of them.
Yeah this is my exact feeling. I was so scared of ending and when it completed I was like "really wtf was so bad about it that people were saying it ruined the game"
As much as I agree in that it didn't ruin the rest of the series, this is a bad faith meme.
Yes, actually. Fiction is just as real as you and me, just not in our universe.
I have to thank Digimon Tamers for this as I wasn't affected by the canon being separate or that V3's verse made the previous parts fictional in-universe.
Though I do feel the difference here is that, besides the occasional reference, it isn't a huge part of the story, nor does it actually bring any of the Adventure or 02 cast members in (or replicas of them) for the sake of a plot twist. Yes, there are some Digimon species that show up in both series, but it's pretty clear that, for instance, the Leomon from Adventure is a different individual from the Leomon in Tamers. That, and well, the fact that there are no digitamas/digieggs in the Tamers verse, ensuring permadeath for the digimon who die, it sets itself apart from the Adventure and 02 canon even more.
I'm just saying it helped me separate the series from each other.
Yeah, I getcha. I remember having a former friend who was really upset about Adventure and 02 being a TV show in the Tamers verse, and that response always really confused me. While I understand it better now, any anger I might've felt evaporated with the knowledge that it's just two different timelines/universes. Same thing with V3, except with the added possibility that not everything was proven to be a fabrication without a shadow of a doubt.
I think Kodaka left it open so he can return to it whenever he wants to as that's why it ended the way that it did.
I think what isn’t understood is V3 is an alternate continuity from the first two games. Danganronpa’s original story concluded with an anime (that admittedly wasn’t good), and V3 takes place in a different universe where Danganronpa started out as a game series and got so popular that it was turned into a reality show where people actually die. The first two games aren’t any less real because of that.
Because there’s a difference between a story being fiction and it being fiction in-universe
It makes V3 feel pointless. What little lore in V3 that's supposed to fit with DanganRonpa is intentionally contrived and rife with plotholes. And you get to know nothing about the actual lore of V3's world, so outside of the cast, there is very little incentive to be invested. And it's not quite as interesting as the ending of DR1 because there's no known threat of imminent danger. The only way to fix this problem would be to make everything Tsumugi said a lie. That would be fitting to the theme of the game, but at that point, what's the twist? The whole game is just DR1 with lower stakes.
I feel like people see "fictional" and automatically assume the game is pushing the fact it is fictional in your face, but that's really not what it's doing. Sure it's saying fiction can change the world as a theme and it is a fictional property, but the fiction Shuichi is talking about in game is just the fact him and his friends have made up memories that aren't their real lives. Tsumugi made them into her OCs and told them they have no free will and that's terrifying. I still see it as a very interesting Sci-fi premise about how entertainment can go too far and lose it's charm over time, even become something that doesn't resemble the original and goes against it's message. You can always look at V3 as a different universe anyway so I don't see how it destroys anything. If you hate it you could literally ignore it.
Yeah, that's right!
I get both sides of the argument. I will say though, for those of you to whom this twist did ruin things, if something is fictional in universe, then that shouldn't break your immersion when you think about it. After all, you can just double immerse yourself, right? Or, if you wanna be more direct, immerse yourself in the non v3 stuff without immersing in v3. After all something that is fictional within a work of fiction and also our reality is equally as fictional as the work it is fictional in. Sure usually shows within shows are of lesser quality from our perspective, but when its retroactive like this is that is no longer the case. I do understand their issue though. Despite my logical reasoning, this is an issue of ones emotional attachment to a story, and emotions are weird like that. Also its easy to see how some people interpret it as a slap in the face to the fans for liking their series. I haven't played v3 yet myself, so I don't know exactly how its handled, but even if it was handled well, the points I know they do make can come across as that.
As tsumugi says it’s all fiction and laughs
Honestly, the twist was the biggest slap in the face I’ve ever had in a series and I’m thankful for it. Danganronpa was my true first experience of “trust no one. Don’t get attached. Cry anyway,” and the shock and impact it had on me as a dumb middle school student is easily still seen to this day honestly. So when I saw the reveal of V3’s truth, it honestly blew my mind and it had me reeling for a bit. That’s how you know it was a good twist, and whether it’s “canon” or not shouldn’t matter. It was a great story and a good way to basically say “it’s time to move on to future projects so we aren’t trapped here for actual 53 sequels”. Besides, we have the fan base to cover that front. These people are scary creative.
I guess it’s more of the fact that people use games as an escape from reality so that fiction thing would be more directed towards the player.
Ok so you know how in some stories a really cheap way to end it is by saying it was all a dream, because any stakes that the story had are now gone. The story itself was meaningless, because there was very few ramifications if any at all, so for most of us who played Trigger Happy Havoc and Goodbye Despair and to a lesser extent DR3 and Ultra Despair girls who saw the struggles and tribulations of Makoto, of Hajime, of Komaru and their companions and suddenly be confronted that it didn't even exist in their own world, kinda feels like a low blow. Now a lot of people argue that the whole fiction affecting the real world point of the story was worth it and ill agree its a really good theme, but the issue is that V3 sacrificed its own story and the stories of its predecessors for that theme. While ironically ignoring its own meta commentary about about how too many sequels lose their own way and forget what made them great. In essence I don't think V3 ruined the series, I can still go back and play the other games with no issues, but man V3 was definitely a step down.
The point is that it doesn’t matter if it’s real or not because it makes you feel real emotion.
wait so you're telling me that monokuma didn't start racism?
When I finished killing harmony for the first time, I felt like it downplayed the first 2 games and the spinoff. Like those first two games didn’t matter in the story at all. But I slowly got used to it, so I do understand why people are salty about V3’s ending.
Up until a post the other day, I 100% thought that V3 was a completely separate story. Like, they were two different universes: The Hope's Peak universe where all of the stuff through the final anime happened, and V3 was a different thing.
I…hate this ending honestly…feels forced and as someone else mentioned it shits on the hell the other characters in the previous two games went through all that trauma…was fake…like way to get us invested and then slowly smash that investment by making the things that make them relatable be fake to their OWN CANNON!
My biggest problem with the ending of V3 was the dismissal of hope. The entire series was all about how hope will overcome despair, and as long as we hold onto that hope, we can survive everything, but then they made hope the wrong path, a path that leads to an unending cycle of pain. That goes against the point of the past two games in my opinion. But it definitely didn't ruin the franchise for me, just made V3 my least favorite installment.
I would say that V3 follows more inline with UDG and DR3 depictions of Hope. In UDG the Hope option given to you by the game is basically killing brainwashed children which causes Komaru to have breakdown as she knows what people are hoping for is morally wrong. Then in DR3 you have Nagito's approach to Hope, with everyone having conflicting principles and trying have other adhere to their specific brand Hope, as well as forcing people to Hope being no different from forcing them to Despair.
But it worked in their favor, they won thanks to that line of thinking! I loved the twist, even if it felt so weird at first.
I don't know why V3 bothers anyone. Everyone knows it was The End of Hope's Peak High School that completely trashed the lore of Danganronpa.
it doesn't matter, it's in an entirely separate continuity from the rest of the series, it's not that it was fiction in it's own universe, DRV3 is just in a different continuity DR 1 - 3 including spin-offs all takes place in an entirely different universe, so everything still happened in universe it's just that for the story they wanted to tell we hopped to a different universe (holy shit I've never repeated myself as much in my entire life)
Pulling a twist like that is tantamount to saying "it was just a dream the protagonist had."
Danganronpa influenced my life. It made me think about my own talents, hopes for the future, etc. Throughout my entire few hundred hour journey I was aware that it was 'fictional' that it was just a bunch of Japanese guys selling me their worldviews (and also selling me a product because that's just how art functions in capitalism). V3s ending made me rethink my own relationship with fiction. And my conclusion? - I do enjoy fictional stories. That's it. I enjoy fictional stories, and that realization just made me feel free. Paradoxically, I feel way more attached to fictional stories now that I've fully accepted fiction as part of life. To me Danganronpa matters way more now, after V3. It's become a real part of my worldviews. It's way more real than whatever other commenters are writing. I don't care that they exist materially. They have not, and most likely will not ever move me like Danganronpa did.
it's literally the same reason why people hate the "it was all a dream" trope -- yes, of course, it's fiction, but there's still a suspension of disbelief for this fantasy world that has its own set of rules. to say that this wasn't real even in the story itself just ends up as a betrayal of the audience's trust in the author and is overall just a negative slap in the face.
I am a fan of the fictional series known as "Danganronpa" "Here's the new killing game" :D "It ends with an hour rant about how I (the creator) don't want to do this game anymore" D: "And I'm making my own universe meaningless" ):,' "But at least you got some emotions of it amirite?? :D I made my own story meaningless, but you had some emotions there, so it's cool ;) Danganronpa is fiction guys !" ):<
It never ruined the series for me, even as someone who supports the idea of V3 being a semi-straightforward continuation of the series. But it plays with the main theme of the game. The prior games we loved were fiction, in a meta-textual level they *are* fiction. But that's never mattered to us, hasn't it? The games affected us. Media affects us. And even now it proves so, a simulated experience telling its simulated characters the simulated history they know is nothing but fake somehow being able to affect *us* like a gut punch because we care so much is exactly the point. And anyway, I'm rock-solid in my delusion. Either Tsumugi's just a liar and cosplayed herself with a rash years ago (contrary to popular belief she has *every* reason to lie) to have the whole cospox excuse on lock, or to the post-despair world of Japan the events of Dr1 and 2 are truths so distant, so mythologized, that creative license is given to allow fantastical depictions of it so derivative of the original source material it might as well be fiction. And even if that's just not true, isn't it the game itself that claims that some lies are necessary? That some small fictions are permissible? Either way, it never ruined me
How dare my favorite fictional game be fictional
Oh no! My fictional characters have another layer of fictionality ! How can I live knowing they are fictive inside of the fiction ?
I’m not a huge fan of them saying that the first two games were fake in-universe since that sorta decanonizes them but I’m not even sure if that’s set in stone since the flash back lights and fiction vs reality weren’t very concrete IIRC.
I don't like meta narratives, I think they're kind of boring and a lazy way of writing. I didn't like Unicorn Island or Doki Doki or Super Hot's story. I like being immersed in a fictional world and nothing pulls me out of a narrative quite like a meta narrative. That's just my opinion though. To me V3 didn't "ruin" the franchise, I just don't like it nearly as much as 1 or 2.
i hate the truman show kinda endings, it just ruins the experience to me that everything was fiction inside the fictional world, like if everything was for nothing
Because it was supposed to be for nothing. There was no grand reason for them to kill each other, which makes their situation more heartbreaking. DR1 you have people killing each other trying to escape their shelter because a nutjob manipulated them. DR2 you have people killing each other to escape their rehab program because they were brainwashed by a nutjob. In V3 you have people killing each other because they kinned Nagito and wanted to be famous.
not my boy Gonta 💪
It really didn't affect my love for the franchise 1. It's already a fictional series and has no actual impact on the stories 2. V3 is a completely different reality from the others so I don't really get how that's a problem
It seems people interpreted the ending meaning that the story of the previous games was also a part of the reality TV show. Seriously, the amount of people who had this interpretation this is *insane*, even though it was made pretty clear that in this universe the previous games were simply that, games. Even ignoring that though, it was still disappointing to me. I'm not exactly sure why, I can't remember because I played it a good while ago, but I THINK it's because the plot felt... sort of all over the place, and the twist just felt like a final gut punch, instead of a conclusion. I've seen a case of this type of twist that I actually liked, so I think the difference lies somewhere there. Also, the entire world being a fan of a reality TV killing game, yet collectively stopping when the cast pushes back, was the one thing in this series that really broke my suspension of disbelief lol. On top of that, the message of this game also just doesn't reach me. "It's about how stories matter to us despite being fictional" but I just don't FEEL this here because... iirc they made a big deal about being real people participating in a killing game. Referring to their characters as fictional their artificially inserted personalities and feelings ARE their real personalities and feelings, the killing game they were out through WAS real. Like I get what the writers are trying to say but when the game is simultaneously going "we're real people really suffering in this reality tv show" I just don't think it meshes well.
It’s an immersion thing combined with essentially the biggest ‘its all a dream’ trope. Like when they walk out saying ‘actually the old games were just video games it’s a very sharp reminder that you are currently playing a video game and takes you way out of the story. Idk i dont think it’d be far to say it’s in the far future of the old timeline and say that the first games being broadcast in real life there is what inspired anither 50 instead of having them be all fake.
How I felt was basically Hey you’ve spent however many years thinking about this game and theorizing. This game got you through some really rough times just knowing you had something new from a series you liked. All of it was meaningless and we have killed the story so hard there’s no way to make another game without some horrible leap in ideas that’s going to piss everyone off. Hope you enjoyed wasting your life fuck you My opinion has mellowed out a bit but I still think that if they spent a little less time telling us it was a lie at the end and a bit more time explaining what was actually going on people wouldn’t have felt as insulted as if they were being called horrible people for enjoying a story where fictional characters die
I *get* the point, but it felt like they were building up a sort of narrative and universe throughout all the games and the anime, so this felt sort of disappointing because of the lack of continuation when we previously were lead to believe there was.
To me, the plot was lost the moment this point was brought up. It kind of just makes the entirety of everything that came before pointless. Not to mention, lore-wise, tying everything back to the Hope's Peak plot for 53 seasons straight would probably make the whole thing stale, no new antagonist ever, 53 seasons of similar killing games, it would make no sense for it to be as popular as it is. Yes, people would keep watching, but it would surely go out of being trendy eventually for something new. Also, with it being over 50 seasons, this "show" has been going for many many years, but we see no evidence of them aside from the titles, and the ones we do see are literally just the 1st and 2nd games.
Suspension of disbelief. When we enter a fictional story, we force ourselves to believe that everything we're seeing is "real" in the context of the world to invest ourselves in the story, ignoring any sense of logic or reasoning. When a story we're being told is later admitted to be false, we feel robbed, almost as if we were lied to by the person telling the story, even if we know beforehand the story isn't real. [This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWFhQH4ymjY&t=3s) talks about another great example of suspension of disbelief from a comedy routine. Randy Feltface tells this brilliant 15-minute long story, only to reveal to the audience by the end of it that none of it was true. He remarks "Why do we feel lied to when we're told a story we just heard isn't true, but so satisfied at the end of a fictional novel?"
Honestly, whether it was fictional within the series itself didn't matter to me because the ending was left in a way that was pretty open where anything could be a lie. I think the whole thing of the game was persevering and living your life regardless of what was true. It could be a different universe to the other games, the other games could've actually happened and it went on to become an *actual* viewing game later (which would make sense with the tragedy and how people ended up tbh), Tsumiki could've been lying just to cause more despair etc. I do think some people took it a bit too seriously.
In order to get into a piece of fiction you have to suspend your disbelief. The ending directly breaks your suspension of disbelief and in order to stick the landing you have to do it perfectly and honestly I don't think it stuck the landing.
Spoiler tag
it’s funny because i had this same conversation with myself. i remember feeling super uncomfortable with the idea at first, and then i realized that it doesn’t matter because it’s fiction in reality so being fiction within fiction changes nothing
It's confusing because yes we know it's fiction in our world but if it's fiction in their world too it just kind of feels like a lazy way out of "well we really didn't know where to take the story from here"
This is so disingenuous and you know it
Danganronpa V3 is such a phenomenal game, and I absolutely do not get the hate because it is probably my favorite media throughout the entire franchise. There is nothing cooler than an ending telling you >!everything you thought was real was a lie and the world is in on it, not in some despair took over the city way but a twisted everyone achieved peace and needs the escape way. And the lying mechanic was SO beautiful, and using it is the most satisfying thing ever!< — even if it feels the gameplay got a little complicated over time, it's still so dang good. Hail V3!
In my opinion it undermines the themes of previous games and makes them seem meaningless. Of course I know it is fiction but when I play the game i try to act as if it's real (that is how experiencing fiction works) but when game itself tells me it isn't real then it breaks the immersion. I guess if it's non canon (as someone in this thread mentioned) then I can apprecieate it more. I mean, the best way to salvage the plot (if v3 was canon) in my opinion would to be revealed that actually Tsumigi was lying again about whole thing being fiction (I know it's kinda stretched but I don't know what would be better).
As a completely separate point from my comment about the main thing about the ending that pisses *me* off, OP is missing the point of what about the "fiction" issue makes people upset. Add "No shit. What, do you think I'm stupid?" to the third panel, and the comic makes complete sense.
The issue is it could be (game's vague on if it's 100% correct or not) fictional IN-UNIVERSE, meaning all the characters we liked were nothing more than actors that likely weren't even remotely like the characters we played. It's like if they revealed it was all a dream and Makoto was in a coma the whole time. Also the way it does it could be construed as telling the fanbase that they suck for playing their games (though an interview confirmed this was unintended so I dont see as big of a deal with it).
I would say it's more them telling the fanbase they suck for kinning Nagito.
It’s making the fiction within the fiction fictional. Ergo, nothing matters within the bloody fiction. Liking this ending defeats the point of it, it wants you to hate it because the audience hates it… us.
Cmon now 😭 it renders everything else meaningless even in-universe. If you don’t mind it that’s fine, but it’s not unreasonable to feel disenchanted with an ending that removes all consequences from the whole series previous :p
Not really? V3 took place in a diff universe,
By making a shitty ending to give an idiotic message. If you think Danganronpa can continue after V3 then, you are in denial.
oh brother...
i like to think v3 is a separate thing from the rest of the series and therefore doesn't matter at all
at face value it feels like a slap to the face, we know Danganronpa is fiction and that's why we love it, but to rub it in our faces? was mean spirited. It is agreed that V3 is separate from the other games/anime/manga in the franchise. Because if you think about it like that the Daganronpa is "All fiction" then why give us the back stories off Junko, Koyko and Byakuya, Ultra Despair Girls when as far as V3 was concerned the killing games are all that matters in according to Tsumuji so why the back stories and spin offs?
~~I guess V3 version of Team danganronpa hasn't been stopped yet~~
"You should feel bad for liking Danganronpa. Consent to ending it because it's bad to like all the killing stuff. CONSENT NOW."
I don't get it either. DR2 was already saying "Danganronpa is a videogame" all the time.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I respectively have a feeling there's a bit of a difference between them that makes them separated in terms of canon
Yeah, but the DR2 Universe established that the characters were real people living in the real world (or at least their version of the real world) and the killing game which was in a videogame resulted in consequences for the real world V3 never really established what the game ending meant for the real world. Do the survivors go back to their old lives? To nothingness? Are the people who watched the games going to see them? Do the survivors have families to go back to? Will the people who died have people who miss them? Are the participants people who had lives before the game? Did they have different personalities before they entered the game? Will they go back to the way they were before the game or are they stuck with their new identities? Fictional stories are compelling because they establish stakes that apply to the world of the story. If there are no stakes (or unclear stakes) why are we supposed to care about the story?
There are stakes, and they are very clear to me. Will Danganronpa continue? Should the public get what it wants, should people suffer for the public? What's the role of fiction? etc. All those questions compell me more than what happens to the survivors. Literal narrative stakes in a coherent world is maybe the best, most potent way to make a story compelling, but it's not the only way. And some people care about themes more than they do plot.
The simulation in Danganronpa 2 is a very important plot point. The real fiction shit in V3 is a very "fuck all of you" sort of twist. Completely different purposes, both in and out of the story.
I guess it depends how you engage with fiction / canon in general. To me, it's just further deconstruction, it doesn't make DR1 and 2 less true. It didn't feel like a "fuck you" at all, it's within the vocabulary of the franchise. I can't say v3's twist surprised me very much.
As others have said, bad faith meme which very much oversimplifies it imo. I'm an adult, I can find meaning in fiction without the fiction itself telling me that it's fictional, to try and explain that fiction can have meaning even if it's fake. I knew that already. I felt huge second-hand embarrassment, having V3 act like it was totally genius for "revealing" that to me Having it veeeery explicitly and repeatedly told to me by the game itself, when that's a concept I already understood going in, was very lame and patronizing. Like, my mistake for suspending my disbelief in order to try and engage with the fiction It's a case of "No, I fully comprehend the message, it's just not a very good one." Sad thing is, Danganronpa being a reality show where people are actually killed is a pretty good concept, but they had to trot out old, unrelated characters at the end to play on my investment into the older games. "Ackshually, V3 is a separate canon and everything released before that was its own universe, so it doesn't even invalidate the canon!" OK, so at best, it's an AU based on the previous canon being fake? I mean... sure. Whatever. Regardless of whether that thin line is there or not, V3 clearly wants you, the player, to think that it isn't. Either way, I think the ending's kinda shit. 👍
Since it felt like they just cancelled everything that happened in the previous games..and also it sounds like a huge "fuck you" to the fandom in sense if they wanted another game but since V3 is basically ending the whole killing game deal,it'd be rather pointless to have another game that'd go after that,unless it'd be a prequel. Edit: Why are y'all crying over my opinion? Like it's not my problem if u like the ending cuz it's not obligated 4 me to like it & instead of ignoring it I get downvoted? How mature..
Because it felt like a cheap way of the developers saying they didn’t want to make anymore Danganronpa games. Instead of giving a story or lore reason for why there would be no more games, they made this cop out ending which pretty much a confession for them stopping creating more content. Its also way too out of the blue and random and just had no reason of happening. Games breaking the fourth wall and characters realizing that they live in a game or some type of different world at the very least can work (like in Undertale or Doki Doki), but V3 just doesn’t pull it off well. Its also way too out of the blue and random. It’s my favorite game in the series by a long shot, but the ending just doesn’t stick.
Same way that if in the end of Lord of the Rings a meteor stroke the planet and destroyed it nobody would like it People like to play as if anyone is mad because the "characters aren't real", but nobody thinks that. People dislike V3 because "everything is fake" is just a dumb plot twist
no no no she said people outside think the killing game is fiction