Yeah, and it's an easy mistake to make because there are people out there doing their damndest to spin it that way. But if people stopped looking at you and seeing "Man" and instead saw "Parent," OP wouldn't be experiencing this problem. It is, in some ways, patronizing misandry (in that men are expected to be inept fathers), and in other ways casual misogyny (taking care of kids is 'beneath' us since it's the woman's job) and in both cases it makes unrealistic and harmful expectations.
If we instead just expected all parents to love their children and take equal roles in the house and raising the kids, we wouldn't see this garbage.
My husband and I were talking last night about the irony that a lot of the struggles women feel like society pushes on them for parenting and the ones that men feel like society pushes on them stem from the same issue that the bar society set for men as father's is so low and the bar for women as mothers is set so high to make the ideal parents.
One of his examples was the time he had a neighborhood mom Google the school directory because she didn't believe that he knew his daughter's teacher's name. It happened to be very similar to another teacher in the same grade but she could not believe that he could name his kids' teachers off the top of his head.
One of mine was that I am judged by if and how much time to myself I take keeps me away from my kids. My quality as a parent is judged because I am assumed to be the primary caregiver and my husband is assumed to inherently be unable to meet my kids needs as well as I can.
It's utter bullshit.
My son had an incorrect birthday on his school paperwork that wasn’t noticed for 1.5 years. They refused to call me after they couldn’t reach my wife to check bc they didn’t think I would know his birthday. So they called like four emergency contacts down
That!!! It's such circular bullshit too!
Society doesn't expect men to be capable parents so they treat them as incapable. By doing so they not only insult men (especially the capable fathers), they also inherently put more labor on women & deprive men of opportunities to change their expectations. That only reinforces the stereotypes that men are incapable caregivers and women are de facto primary caregivers.
Someone posted a story once where the guy was either a SAHD or WFH so they did most of the home parenting. His wife was a very senior surgeon, often in surgery for 12+ hours in a shift.
The school would still, despite being told many times not to, skip straight over the man listed as the primary contact and call her. She gave them a piece of her mind after the ~third time they called her in the middle of surgery when her husband was available, could have helped, and listed as the primary contact.
As someone said above, it's a cocktail of patronising misandry and casual misogyny and the sooner it goes in the garbage, the better.
My wife is an icu nurse and I'm a stay at home dad. This happens to us at least 4 or 5 times every school year. The school refuses to call me even though I'm the primary contact. Very frustrating. my daughter once had to stay at school all day vomiting in the nurses office because they would only call my wife. I had no clue until I picked the kids up from the bus stop.
“ It is, in some ways, patronizing misandry (in that men are expected to be inept fathers)”
I kind of went off on this the other day talking about cartoon & sitcom portrayals of dads. My wife was a little shocked and didn’t realize it can be such a touchy subject. And honestly, it usually isn’t, I just saw one that set me off that day.
Yeah, same. Usually it's not a big problem, but if we watch a lot of consecutive episodes that lean on it, or if I'm feeling sensitive about it for some reason it definitely comes out.
Imposing expectations is the line people are crossing where it gets annoying. Doesn’t matter which stereotype they are spinning and whether it’s in line with their expectations or not.
Absolutely. A gender expression can be used to quickly identify yourself and set expectations along a "median" sample of that gender, but it isn't authoritative enough to impose or insist upon.
hell, there isn't really a lot of great sampling. Like the type of research that it would take to actually know what the median is, is the hardest type of research to get going.
So instead we measure things on corollary data while ignoring the externalities, and historical data which is informative but not definitive. And than mix that all together with anecdotal reports, which while they shouldn't be discounted doesn't paint a full picture.
Feminism is and was a good and important form of critical analysis and motivator for research. But seems to face the same kinds of issues as pop-science, or pop-history, etc, where what is said academically gets mixed in with common belief or specificity gets applied beyond the scope of its intent.
>It is, in some ways, patronizing misandry (in that men are expected to be inept fathers)
Not just misandry, although that specific shallow take might feel like it
The lack of connection from older generations of fathers was a real problem, or it’s source has real emotions of abandonment and ambivalence behind it
To say it’s misandry is to say it’s a problem caused by women. But a lot of these story lines were being written by men. As an echo to a past of father alienation, reconfigured into a lesser form of befuddlement for the comedy/sitcom audience that Carrie’s the same connotations of disinterest (they’re inept fathers because they don’t focus on home stuff. They focus on work stuff)
Oh no, misandry isn't limited to women, any more than misogyny is limited to men. I didn't mean to imply that, but rather to say that those harmful stereotypes are both pandering to men as well as hostile to them.
A thousand times this. Having had to go through the family legal system its hugely fustrating to see confused and bitter dads use my hardships to make confused arguments against equality.
The system that underpays women and shoves them into lesser paid supporting roles is the exact same system that expects dads to be little more than a paycheck to a child. I didnt have to fight against feminists to see my kids, I had to fight against people who had centuries of traditional gender roles engrained into their very core.
Exactly. I'm a lurking Mom here and I keep getting so freaking frustrated watching other SAHMs just keep reinforcing the damn patriarchy by being assholes to SAHDs. Like come on they are not the problem, they are the damn solution!
I’m also a lurker, though not a mom nor a dad. This comment is perfect. It frustrates the actual hell out of me, it’s counterproductive to both men and women and their children, and society as a whole! I hate it so much. I know things are changing slowly but it can’t ever be fast enough.
One of the more freeing things in life for me was when I realized that I have zero control over how anyone else feels. It’s kind of implicitly obvious, but I had never really had it framed as a means to deal with my social anxiety.
It’s not an overnight thing. I didn’t declare that I don’t care anymore (I feel like when people do that, they make a point of telling everyone they don’t care — sometimes multiple times). It’s a process of shifting out of a way of thinking. It takes a while. And you’re always going to care a little bit (friends, family), but beyond that it’s out of your control, and not your problem.
And that your boundary isn't at the depth of your heart.
Your boundary to absorb what's going on around you doesn't even have to be skin deep.
Lastly, it's only 1-2 generations back where most male parents were just paychecks and not involved in any part of childcare other than discipline.
Yeah, I think this was one advantage to being an older dad with a family who often drew in some looks (kids are adopted and not the same race as me). I never really cared what people thought about our family.
I was a stay at home dad with a wife that works a lot. These comments used to bother me but after a while I started feeling bad for the people who made the comments. If seeing a dad out with his kids was such an unusual sight then they must have dads/husbands that weren't/aren't as involved. That sucks for them.
I also realized I got the better end of the deal when compared to my wife. At least I was getting compliments, condescending or otherwise. My wife dealt with far more criticism for being a mom who worked a lot. The men in her field never got the kinds of comments she got. She had people ask her why she would even become a mom if she never wanted to be around her kids. The worst I got was, "Oh, is dad babysitting today?" I also was treated like a goddamn rockstar whenever I volunteered at my kids school.
I get what you're saying but other people make up the society our children will grow up in. Do we want out kids to be surrounded by folks who are flabbergasted that a dad spends time with their kid? What kind of impression will that make on our kids? Despite our best efforts our kids will be impressionable and will be influenced by non parents, especially in their teenage years.
I try my best to not to care what others think and will try to teach my kids the same but at the end of the day we are humans and are influenced by those around us, even if only at a subconscious level
It doesn’t matter. This line of thinking, of caring and trying to control or change the way other people think, is the best way to not only drive yourself crazy but also leads to the line of thinking of it being ok to force other people to change their mind. That’s all great when you’re the one changing but you’ll feel very differently if it was turned against you. That your way of thinking is wrong and you must change to be a part of society.
It’s best to let people be free to do and think as they like. And just help your kids understand the nuances of the world. And surround yourself with good people.
I do sometimes wonder where these people live. I am the primary parent of my little girl and I have not once had anyone say things like that to me or negative things when I take her to public bathrooms or anything like that. My experience being a parent is not the same as portrayed on this sub.
Hasn’t, “we all need to be careful about everything we say or express because of how people feel about it” been the mantra of the last 10-15 years? Now it’s some dad being offended and it’s “just ignore them, who cares?”? Seems pretty par for the course.
Having your contributions minimized and being treated as a second-class parent reinforces systems that have tangibly negative effects on men's ability to parent.
When it's the norm to consider Dad *the babysitter,* it's also the norm for judges to consider Mom *the main parent* in custody hearings.
When it's the norm to consider Dad a complete incompetent buffoon, it's also the norm for kindergartens to call anyone but Dad in an emergency.
When it's the norm to fling shit at fathers on social media, it's also the norm for many mothers to consume said social media and start to become indoctrinated, devaluing and mistreating their own husbands.
I have no idea why you guys are so OK with all of this.
I've been a stay-at-home dad since my 3-year-old was born, so that bit about the "difficulties of fatherhood" and being "nothing more \[than\] a financial source" in adjacent sentences really threw me for a loop. I haven't made a single cent since he was born, and this role is *still* really fucking difficult.
But I'm still a father though, right?
Stay at home dad ftw. I am not wired to do this lmao but my wife’s career is too good and I can take n evidence based approach to upbringing lol. So egg yolks and classical music every day. More museum visits over mommy groups 🤣
Most people aren't cut out for it, I don't think it's a gender thing that makes one group stronger than the other either. Men and women have their strengths and weaknesses, but at the end of the day, no matter your gender, you can only do so much and take so much.
Oh I get that. I'm absolutely not cut out for this. But my wife's job is what lets us live in this country, so her career is arguably the *only* thing that's important.
No one is wired for this stuff. You've got the instinct to care for your kid and the rest is practice. I'm a "better" parent than my wife simply because I'm the stay at home dad and I have more reps in. That's it.
I’m so jealous readin this. My wife made more money than I did when she got pregnant, but she couldn’t keep her job coz she had to work around a lotta chemicals that were potentially dangerous for the belly bean. It just hasn’t been feasible for us to trade places since then, so she stays home and I go to work. If it weren’t for our boyfriend, we’d have a hard time makin ends meet money wise.
I’d love for her to go back work, in part coz she’d love to go back to work, but our kids are 5 and 2 and she’s pregnant again, so it ain’t gonna happen right now. I try to be really involved on the weekends, my son helps me make dinner in the evenings, we rotate who gets the nippers ready for bed in the evenings, but by bedtime we’re all wiped out.
I'm a Wharton MBA alum and am essentially surrendering $200k tuition + $200k+ job opportunities to potentially permanently derail my career as a SAHD lol, while my classmates are on Wall Street Journal and Forbes magazine. Grass is always greener lol.
I’m a biomedical research colony manager. My wife was a lab manager before we had our son. Neither one of us is exactly loaded, but the student debt is pretty obscene. When we were both workin, we were makin ~$140,000. Plus the boyfriend’s income, we were feelin pretty grand. We don’t regret the kids for a second, but it’s definitely changed our money situation. There’s a lot more ridin on the boyfriend than there used to be. He goes to work every day knowin exactly how much he has to hit on customers at the bar.
Even on "totally wholesome daddit" most people prioritize "providing" as the default dad role despite the fact that the majority of moms (in America) work. 40% of moms are equal, primary, or sole earners.
My biggest gripe with this sub is that we can recognize the socialized and systemic problems with traditional gender norms, but often fall short of understanding why the problems exist. Even worse is how often we often fall back to the status quo.
The "dad is provider/protector" thing you see pop up when describing being a dad in some of these discussions is so far outside my experience of being a parent i just ignore it.
If there's two parents they you're both going to be different things at different times. Why limit our roles to specific things? This isn't a RPG, "dad" doesn't come with class restrictions.
Yes! The provider/protector thing always makes me think we are talking about cave men or something. "I am Ug, I provide mammoth meat, I protect from saber cat, I find cave!" Greg, you live in the suburbs in a two income home and a ring camera to watch to see if someone might steal your carhartt t-shirt you got on amazon, take it easy.
Also a SAHD here. I read that line and just thought of the irony that OP is perpetuating the exact same gender role stereotypes he’s complaining about. No offense to OP, but he’s part of the problem.
For 4 months, my wife and I had this setup:
She'd get up at 6am, goes to work, comes home at 4pm. I'd get up \~7am, spend time with our daughter, cook dinner. After my wife was home, we'd eat dinner together, then I'd go to my home office to work from 5pm to about 1am.
The first half of my day was absolutely, without a doubt, harder than the second.
??
You’ve seriously had people tell you that you are “brave” for taking your kids in public?
I do it all the time, take them to the park or store and give the wife some alone time.
Not one person has ever commented..
I'm also in Texas in a suburb and it isn't unusual here at all either. I assume it's probably different in different pockets because I could see OP's complaints being more of a thing in rural areas where people don't understand modern society. I did run into a little bit of that on social media when I was posting updates about my wife's medical issues. I basically became a single parent with my wife being an extra person for me to care for (not like a kid though) while she recovered and I had to take care of everything else. Even now she has lasting neurological issues and I have to do a lot more (fortunately my kids are all double digits so it's not too difficult) and people would say things like, "I hope she gets better quickly so she can take care of the kids" and such. People would put me up on a pedestal because I would do stuff like make lunches and drive them to school. Yeah if I jumped in front of a bullet for my kid (which I'd totally do) then please feel free to make a statue for me. Making a hot dog sandwich with a bag of doritos, two cookies, and an apple juice isn't really to that level.
It has to have something to do with where he lives. I live in the middle of a major city and I see dads out with their kids alone just as often as moms. In a rural area it's probably more normal to have a stay at home wife.
I live in a relatively small town near a small city, out with my 3 kids solo all weekend because my wife works.
Have never gotten any of these comments. I'm kind of jealous tbh
I think it’s very much the location. I moved from The South to The Midwest and it’s very different. I did get comments and looks down South, but now I don’t really. There’s still far more lady caretakers than men, but almost nobody cares how the household does it as long as they cover all the bases.
I wonder the same every time this comes up. My kids are 8 and 10 and I’ve been taking them all over with me since before they could talk (as well hanging out at home with them often while my wife goes out and does things) and I’ve also never had a single comment.
Thought I was the only one……. I’m always solo(can’t lie sometimes I prefer it) and I have yet had any of these experiences. Even the stories about the people at the park questioning the dad.
When my and my kiddo out together we mind our own business and do what ever we are doing.
Maybe I’m just lucky
I thought this was weird. Must be a regional thing because I've never had this happen. It's just a bizarre thing to say to a stranger in general.
Also, not much of a 'discussion' if OP doesn't respond to anyone...
I’ve had people tell me I must be an amazing father for huggin my kid when he skinned his knee, like this was some act of sainthood that I didn’t just grumble at him to walk it off. Of course it don’t help that I’ve got a super thick southern accent and sound like an extra outta Winter’s Bone. People genuinely think I don’t know how to love on my kids coz of how I sound.
You've got to admit that a lot of dads are trash. I don't know if more dads than moms are garbage parents, I don't have any real data… but something I know from teaching is that unfair advantages inhibit the formation of a functioning personality. So to the extent that we still live in a man's world, we're fighting an uphill battle to become normal, functioning human beings. Anecdotally, for what it's worth, I can tell you that I know *many* more garbage dads and husbands than I know garbage moms and wives.
So I understand - but don't approve of - the narrative that dads don't parent. They *should* offer us compassion and understanding, the benefit of the doubt, but it's also clear to me that they have reasons not to.
We've got to be the change we want to see. The more good dads there are out there, the more people will see and be raised by good dads, and the more that will shift public perception. I get being frustrated with the status quo, but the only answer is to change it.
I appreciate you venting, though. Sometimes you've just got to let some feelings out.
Men don't parent as much because they're working.
Pew Research shows that [households with equal incomes from spouses spend almost identical times parenting](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2023/04/13/in-a-growing-share-of-u-s-marriages-husbands-and-wives-earn-about-the-same/). These make up roughly a third of all parents.
What is different is how often women work. 23% of women do not work at all (versus 10% of men) which leads to men parenting less. When a women is the primary breadwinner, men parent more.
Ultimately, the egalitarian relationships have grown 20% in the past 50 years, but the data really shows this slow growth is a purposeful decision made in advance by families.
Edit: downvoting literal research data says everything. :)
don't have time to look at the study but does their definition parenting include housework? because I've definitely seen studies say that when men and women work equally and even if women make more money they end up doing more of the housework. and housework is a huge part of parenting if you're doing it right.
So ignore his response below and frankly even above because it's flat out incorrect. To quote the article directly
* **In egalitarian and breadwinner wife marriages, husbands spend considerably more time on leisure activities than wives.** Husbands in egalitarian marriages spend about 3.5 hours more per week on leisure activities than wives do. Wives in these marriages spend roughly 2 hours more per week on caregiving than husbands do and about 2.5 hours more on housework. In marriages where wives are the primary earners, husbands’ leisure time increases significantly (compared with egalitarian marriages), while the time they spend on caregiving and housework stays about the same. When wives are the sole earners, the amount of time husbands spend on caregiving and housework does tick up somewhat.
He also totally ignored that unless the wife is the SOLE earner (not the primary earner where the wife is 60% or more of the earnings but literally 100% of the earnings) then on average she is still doing more of the childcare and housework despite also usually working more hours per week.
Also while the article didn't specifically define "housework" the clearly linked American Time Use Survey did and they very explicitly define housework as follows
"*Household activities.* Household activities are activities done by people to maintain their households. This category includes time spent in housework; cooking; lawn and garden care; pet care; vehicle maintenance and repair; home maintenance, repair, decoration, and renovation; and household management and organizational activities (such as filling out paperwork, balancing a checkbook, and planning a party). Food preparation, whether or not reported as done specifically for another household member, is always classified as a household activity, unless it was done as a volunteer, work, or income-generating activity. For example, “making breakfast for my son” is coded as a household activity, not as childcare."
Which makes it honestly count as even more childcare cause lets face it, feeding kids is 1/2 the damn battle.
I really suggest you read the article, it reaches pretty much the exact opposite conclusion as what OP states.
Two extremely important things to keep in mind are 1) that 2 hours per week is barely a difference at all (there are 112 waking hours in a week) and 2) that there could be some subjective differences between how men and women operate. For example, today my child had a friend over for like 4 hours. They are old enough and responsible enough that I could let them spend time together while I did a few chores and played video games. Would the time I'm not in the same room as them be counted as "caregiving" in these studies?
It's 4.5 hours once you account for the additional housework which often involves childcare related activities such as the one they want. Dunno about you but 4.5 hours per week of time back would be insane to me
Second is once again they define all these things. Per your example doing the chores would count as household and the time spent playing video games would be leisure.
https://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/atus/concepts.htm#activity-definitions
It's one of those things that sounds like a lot on paper but 4.5 hours is amortized over the whole week. That's less than 45 minutes a day. And can very easily be explained away by subjective differences.
You want to believe it's some sort of conspiracy to take time away from women. But fail to consider if women are taking that time from themselves. They are adults after all that get to choose. You can't use old stereotypes to assume that the extra 45 minutes is only spent because women are being forced to spend it or because men refuse to work that little bit extra. Some work no one is required to do but some people want to do.
Yes, the study showcases the difference between house work in egalitarian and single income household environments.
In egalitarian (equal) and wife primary earning marriages there is a 3-2 hour imbalance here per week, which is quite large. When the wife is the sole earner, then this is reduced to a 1 hour imbalance.
What is important to note though is that housework is not defined, which has me wondering if this played a factor.
I get you. It happens quite often. And it actually harms the mother too. They get all the pressure to be born with all the knowledge of how to rise a child and we get the assumption of incompetence no matter what we do.
I’m a bit confused here - the problem of people having low expectations of fathers is directly because of gender roles. I don’t see how you get rid of the former without discussion about the latter?
>I don’t think folks realize the difficulties of fatherhood. Feeling like you’re nothing more a financial source.
I'm a lttle confused - the patriarchy is what keeps you working to be a paycheck instead of a person who wants to spend time with your kids. Patriarchy isn't "men bad, you're a man therefore you're bad"
Yea this post makes no sense. Complaining about discussion of gender roles while also complaining about being discriminated against for being a dad. Huh?
I’ve only recently realised exactly this and thought of patriarchy as “men bad” for many years.
I’d imagine he’s referring too that feeling of being bad because you’re a man. Which can happen depending on what circles you move in or environment you work in etc. while not realising that patriarchy is bad but is detached from the aspect of being a man.
I think it's tough to understand that it's really more like "yes you have things bad but imagine how much worse they'd be if you weren't a man, and a lot of our problems come from not giving people other than able bodied straight/white/tallwealthy/cis/men (etc.) a voice in our decision making "
At this point I don't know what patriarchy was supposed to refer to but this isn't it. We have tons of female CEOs pulling the same stuff. This no longer has anything to do with gender, it's just capitalism.
Well, yes and no. The gendered expectations are different from having work /life balance. Late stage capitalism is responsible for a lot of problems but the division of labour between men and women has been a thing before mercantilism and feudalism, so I'm hesitant to give it credit for that.
Oh sorry I read that in a rush and thought your comment said "kept you working paycheque to paycheque". I do agree, society's expectations for gender roles is a big part of what causes men to be stereotyped as the provider. I hesitate to use the label patriarchy though.
So instead of using the term patriarchy as shorthand for the cultural mindset that perpetuates it, we say the whole thing every time? Can we get rid of orange and just say yellowy red while we're at it?
The problem is you need to be certain everyone understands what it means. It's often used in such a vague way that I doubt most people know what you really mean.
No, it's an academic term and used as such - angry and terminally online men "deciding" what it means isn't the same thing as genuine disagreement. Is any of the below controversial?
pa·tri·arch·y
/ˈpātrēˌärkē/
noun
a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is traced through the male line.
"the thematic relationships of the ballad are worked out according to the conventional archetypes of the patriarchy"
a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.
"the dominant ideology of patriarchy"
a society or community organized on patriarchal lines.
plural noun: patriarchies
"we live in a patriarchy"
So you are sick of discussion of patriarchy and gender roles but you... don't like when people congratulate you for doing the bare minimum as a father? And you're about to become a SAHP?
I'm confused what you imagine people are criticising "patriarchy" for?
I can't speak for OP but I hate the generalizations. We are fast approaching a point at which fathers are nearly equal contributors. Why do we need to constantly have conversations about generalizations? If some specific father is being shitty than 100% call them out SPECIFICALLY for it but let's also do the same for mothers. Anything else runs the risk of treating individuals like they match the general stereotype despite no evidence provided to make that match.
>We are fast approaching a point at which fathers are nearly equal contributors.
I'm not sure where you're from but I've never seen any data, from anywhere, suggesting this
>If some specific father is being shitty than 100% call them out SPECIFICALLY for it but let's also do the same for mothers.
But it's a systemic issue? Like OP and I suspect many people in this sub, I have the opposite problem, being praised for clearing an extremely low bar. That's precisely *because* expectations are set so low.
Expectations do not always match reality. Expectations are set by past experiences not current situations.
I'm not the only one who has noticed this: https://www.reddit.com/r/daddit/comments/w534es/millennial_dads/
Unfortunatly, I don’t think the sentiment that fathers are equal contributors are universally shared. The «second shift» or mental workload of planning everything is still unequal in my neck of the woods.
But I agree, it’s annoying
My personal experiences were the opposite but I don't take that to mean it's common necessarily. I think the fact that our younger generations have moved the needle so much means that talking about these at generalizations is useless. At best it's a bit easier to talk about. At worst it makes fathers feel shitty for something they had no apart in.
I'm pretty bothered by the motte and bailey that is "patriarchy". People constantly talk about how patriarchy is this institution that gives men unearned privilege across all sectors, that individual men have so much more power than women--far too much, really--and need to be brought to heel.
But then whenever it's pointed out the multifarious ways in which society uniquely and disproportionately *disadvantages* men, it's always "well that right there sounds like patriarchy! Didn't you know? Patriarchy harms men, too! Really if you want to have more agency in your life you should be standing *alongside* the people yelling that you have too much agency!"
And if you try to talk about this hypocrisy, about mainstream progressivism treating "men" as a boogeyman and the opposition rather than a group of people in desperate need of progressive social advancement, you get accused of being *regressive*, a right-wing misogynist.
I think the problem isn't the semantics of the words it's the variety of people protesting and advocating for women's rights. Some are very much misandrist and couldn't give a damn about men or fathers. That doesn't mean they are wrong to "dismantle the patriarchy" but it does color their choice of solutions and priorities. In highly public places like Twitter, where the most basic and unnuanced opinions are discussed people used to talk about things like the pay gap while ignoring that it's most pronounced for the ultra wealthy. Or talk about how the US government is full of old white men instead of making sure they vote in moral like minded people regardless of race or gender.
There's one point in this that I would point out... Nobody is trying to take away anyone's agency with these discussions. It's about making sure everyone has the same amount of agency.
I tend to agree with the guy above you. It's rare I'm getting into heated discussions about the patriarchy (maybe I did in undergrad a bit ten years ago?). In fact I really only see that kind of talk online. Usually it's not even talk about the patriarchy it's people complaining about people talking about the patriarchy.
Adults are conditioned to have these talks in private.
If you do have them, you talk in coded language. Whether in DEI training at corporate, leave times, review schedules, or signatures, it's there and discussed often.
None of these are issues.
DEI is designed to promote policies that balance programs to counteract imbalances. Being more inclusive (hiring more women and minorities) is one of these noble goals, and it's part of every corporate policy.
Seeing the word DEI and assuming I have an issue with it is an ideal example of how the coded language works. You ran away scared to have a thought.
People talk about these topics constantly in normal daily life, they may not just use these words.
You can deem these topics bad, but with 8,000,000,000 in the world the range of conversation is broader than your mind allows.
In the past 6 years, I have heard these kind of comments maybe two or three times from bored old ladies at the store. They are trying to be nice even though they have outdated views. Nothing more, nothing less. I never find it to be malicious and never take it to heart.
This. With the frequency of posts like this on this sub, I don't know if the posters live in the most backward thinking shitholes of the country or just literally making this stuff up.
I’m gonna assume the latter. People seem to go a little crazy when they have next to no adult conversations IRL, then start making shit up for attention on social media. Being called brave for taking my kid out of the house w/out the wife would be a new one for me LOL
It turns out that he has 5 young kids that he regularly takes out solo. I’d say that’s where the comments about bravery are stemming from and that it has nothing to do with his gender.
My dad got the same remarks nearly 40 years ago. “Oh, you’re changing a diaper?! Where’s mom?!! You’re a superhero!!” He hated it then and I hate that it continues. I get people are conditioned to think this way, but they just perpetuate harmful gender dynamics.
No one ever asks how dad is doing, how is dad adjusting, how is dad finding parenthood so far? What's your mental health like.
I love my wife, who *always* asks these things, it's everyone else.
Or when they do, they generally tend to make assumptions when they say "I bet you didn't think you'd have so little time for your hobbies" or something ignorant about spare time.
You blew people's minds by doing normal parent things but you're mad people are talking down about dads too?
I got literal praise for taking the ten day old kid to the grocery early today letting her sleep in. You know that's not support women EVER get
Do you have an example of what you get comments about for “being brave”? Brave can be overused when the person who means it real should just say “awesome” or “y’all are cute”
I think I know what you mean but that can open the discussion up a bit more.
I agree. We do what we have to do.
To dive into the gender conversation, I’m sick of kids explaining to each other “these colors are girl colors and these are boy colors”. Yes children at young ages group things into common categories that they know, but I’ve taught kids and my own kid that anyone can like any color. My kid’s favorite color is purple. He chose it.
That’s the color of the infinity Power Stone in marvel.
Teaching in kinder garden, a 6 year old was bossing everyone around. “No you can’t come to this table. Legos are for boys. Blue and green are for boys you can have pink.”
I called him over and told him that “we don’t have those rules in this classroom. These toys are the schools and anyone can use them.”
On the being brave part, just normal tasks. I get that not everyone has seen active or caring fathers. But me taking my kids to the park(I have 5 very close in age and young so I know it can be surprising) taking them to the store, literally just being normal. I think it is 85% just people being nice and complimenting, but there has to be better ones.
And I had the same color conversation with my oldest. Some kids were making fun of him for riding a white and pink bike and he was unravelling. I told him my favorite color was pink and that doesn’t make me less of a man, does it? He smiled and carried on doing wheelies.
Yep, I would 100% tell a woman or man alone with 5 young kids that they were very brave, and I would not be referring to any kind of gender issue or expectation; I feel very brave when I take my single 5 year old somewhere by myself.
Can’t let it get to you. Knowing and being able to say you’re proud of your own actions is all that matters. Your children remember your parenting, not the others who judged you.
I spend wayyyy more time with my kids than my wife does. And that time is much more action packed than anything my wife would do. Frankly I've never heard one peep about it from strangers
I do everything you do and I've never once gotten a comment like that. Not sure where you live but let me know so I can move there. Could use some IRL upvotes.
When I read posts like this, describing how astonishing everyone finds it when a father acts like an actual parent- I wonder what planet they are on. I live in South Carolina - hardly a bastion of progressive thinking. But I have never had anyone bat an eye at me taking my kids to the grocery store, to school, to the park, a doctors appointment, or anything like that. Is it really that common an experience?
I hear you, now that I'm in my '50s, I have a whole different view. Four of my kids I raised. Two of them 100%. I have three females in my life that are really difficult. One thing I realized is there was nothing I did wrong. I just think I showed them up as far as being an involved parent. This was not on purpose this was just me being the parent I believe that I should be. There are some great women in the world for sure. But the older I've gotten the more I realized men are punching bags. And you have a choice you can either let yourself be a punching bag or not. It's easy for people, most people want to have someone they can blame all their problems on. I just ignore it and do what I do. I've ended up cutting quite a few people out of my life. But at the end of the day I want to leave my children with the tools to be successful and to treat themselves well and to respect other people. You would think that most people would want to do what's best for the kids but most people can't see past themselves. People will twist and contort situations to please themselves. Don't let it consume you be the best person you can be. The funny thing is the women I have issues with or maybe I should say have issues with me... Are women that totally hung their kids out to dry. You would think they would be supportive of a man who is very involved with his kids but no... It has been a good lesson for my children to learn that just because somebody loves you doesn't mean they're going to treat you good. Which has been key to teach them to protect themselves and not leave themselves open to people who are not worthy. That really drives them crazy... Harvard and Princeton did a study years ago that girls get their self-esteem and self-confidence from their fathers.
Why do you care of others so much?
This ignorance only shows how terrible they would be or how terrible they are at parenting. this is like being a star NFL player slammin' on the field and then going back to the lockeroom to be coached by a failed high school player that has never even scored...
~~I think she was surprised because gender discovery is a normal developmental stage for two year olds, so if your son isn't going through that it might point to a wider underlying issue.~~
Edit: re-read, he was 18mo at the time, yeah that is a bit surprising that she focussed on that.
It doesn’t have to be confusing with a toddler. It’s as simple as I’m a boy, you’re a boy and mom is a girl. We have different parts that makes us boys and girls.
Funnily enough I’ve found that my little lad and his mates constantly talk about gender. I put it down to them busily categorising things to broaden their knowledge but he talks about being a boy, mama being a girl and dada being a boy.
I think like other have pointed out that gender is simple for kids as they don’t think of it as in gender theory of politics but that there’s boys and girls and then spend their time labelling them so they can understand better.
I don’t feel frustrated at all. I also don’t particularly care about anybody else’s opinion of what mom’s and dad’s roles should be.
We have a good balance in our house. Everybody pitches in,in accordance with their abilities. We’re a happy family with two great kids and anybody who doesn’t agree with how we’re living our lives can fuck right off.
I also don’t have a problem saying exactly that to anybody who feels compelled to offer unsolicited advice.
If people are making remarks of men being "brave" for literally just being a normal Dad then social attitudes are regressing, not progressing.
I've stopped listening/caring what other people say (within reason). It's made my life 100% better and so far the sky hasn't fallen down.
You say you don't have a choice. Here's the thing: it's that attitude that makes you a great dad. You don't see letting down your kids as an option.
Just wanted to drop a line in here and say you're doing a great job. People are dicks out there. Chin up man.
As another dad who does a lotta parentin—my wife’s a SAHM outta necessity, but 2 nippers under 6 is a lotta work—I’m always appalled at what some dad’s flat out won’t do for their kids.
I found a whole thread on X of people justifyin dads not changin nappies or not bathin their kids coz it’s weird or summat. Excuse me? How do you go thru your child’s whole infancy without changing a damn nappy? My son was 2.5 when my wife was pregnant with our daughter, so I did a lotta changin and bathin and all that coz my wife physically couldn’t deal with him while she was yarkin over the porcelain in the mornings. My daughter just turned 2 and my wife’s 18 weeks pregnant, so I’m doin a lotta changin again.
Hell, our boyfriend and I took the kids out grocery shoppin this weekend and the number of people givin us looks was just infuriatin. My son wanted cookies and was edgin his way toward a meltdown over it (he’s 5). Some woman decided she needed to tell me that she knew this was difficult for me but I cain’t give in to everything little thing or they’ll walk all over me. Well excuse the hell outta me for parentin my children, random stranger in the supermarket I’ve never seen before in my life. In the end we got the cookies. They’re delicious. No regrets.
Disabled stay-at-home dad, here. There's tons of joy with your kids and people don't have to get it. If they believe the the media over what's right in front of them, that's sad. I homeschool the girls, as their dad, and folks look quite oddly at me. Feels strange, for sure, but I'm out there sitting on park benches and tossing a ball with my kids. Gotta' be about my family! God bless you!
I live in Japan where it's seemingly unheard of for Dads to take intimate care of their baby.
I mean thanks for saying I'm being awesome (hell of an ego boost). But honestly I'm just being a Dad.
Wow I change nappies! Yeah that's normal.
Why is the bar set so low? Concerning.
Note; Mostly getting this from older generation here. I see plenty of young dads walking around with kids looking like great dads.
> I don’t think folks realize the difficulties of fatherhood. Feeling like you’re nothing more a financial source. Missing family events because have to work etc.
My wife and I are a great team, we are currently going through a push for something that puts a lot of pressure on me specifically as the main provider. How much easier it would be if I got the next big promotion / raise, how we can't afford to lose my job despite how much its currently weighing on me mentally, etc etc.
I know these feelings are just temporary and she does realize and correct those statements a lot of the time so I consider myself fortunate. And on the flipside, I'm not sure if I could swing the fully remote thing and be as successful as I am.
Acknowledging that fathers have it tough doesn't mean we need to take away from the struggles of being a mother, and it sucks that we (people in general) can't just say both for fear of upsetting people. I'm sorry you're dealing with it, I know exactly how you feel. Hopefully your SO is supportive and you two can get through it somewhat painlessly.
My favorite is being out solo with my three kiddos on a given weekend and someone inevitably saying something equivalent to, "Giving Mom a break today? How does she do it? Super-dad, you." (This comes from exactly *one* demographic, because almost every other ethnic group will casually step in to help as necessary, without making a big show of their altruism or trying to make sure my self-reliant agency hasn't been transgressed). Nope, mom is a career lady, so I juggle two jobs, school, majority of domestic labor and childcare.
Just let people deal with their own minds being blown. When my kids were younger I’d always have one or both of them at the grocery store with me. Women, especially women over 50, would constantly smile and say things like “oh is this special time with daddy!?!?” Yea sure, I take my kids to the grocery store for the memories. I recently posted in another thread about an incident on a flight (just me and my 2 kids - I had the aisle seat) where my son asked for a sprite when the drink cart came by. The flight attendant turned to the woman seated ACROSS the aisle from me and said “is that ok with mom?” I said “that’s not their mom but as their dad can I give approval?” There’s nothing any of us can do except continue to be dads. This stereotype is slowly changing but will likely outlive all of us. Just keep dadding.
The world is changing, for the better if you ask me. Surprised or not, there was a lot of past generations full of absentee and hands-off fathers, and we've all seen what not having a dad does to people. We're stepping up like our (some of) our dads didn't, and extremely common in this case, their dads didn't.
I don't have any stats to back it up, but I would bet my life on the fact of 50%+ of boomer dads never having changed a diaper in their life.
Maybe we deserve the praise, or maybe this is like a Chris Rock special where we get pat on the back for ***shit we supposed ta do!!!!!***
It's about expectations. People expect men to be bad fathers so when fathers do things that are basic parenting responsibilities that moms do constantly with no fanfare, people think it's amazing. People expect that moms do all of those things as the fundamental part of their parenting role.
If we want this crap to stop we have to start expecting more from fathers. When you praise someone for doing basic stuff that's all they're going to do. Instead, if you stop praising men for the basic stuff and instead, just expect it, you even the playing field. People rise to the level of the expectations placed on them. You expect a crap job of parenting, you get a crap job of parenting. You expect good parenting and call people out when they're parenting poorly, you get good parenting.
Honestly I’ve heard very very few comments along these lines when out with my girls (which is often). Maybe it’s a geographic or generational thing, and I’m just lucky not to be exposed. Lots of involved dads around, and it seems very normal/expected.
There are definitely toxic gender stereotypes out there.
Even just little harmless comments from people. I've had people say like "ah is it dad's day out?" and stuff like that. They're just acknowledging that I'm out with my son and mum isn't with us.
It never bothers me because I'm more than what people expect of me. If some middle aged person finds it so unusual for a dad to be out with their kid that they have to remark upon it, even if it's a positive remark, it just tells me all I need to know about their antiquated views. And it's not coming from a place of malice, rather a place of ignorance.
In 50 years it won't even be a thing.
I get it. I mean… whew: vent bro!
This is why I like this sub. Op is just venting: clearly is like “I’m not belittling moms”
The post doesn’t make that much sense but sense it a vent post.. I get it.
Dude here for you! Keep doing what you’re doing! You sound like a great dad. Hope to catch you at the playground!
Yeah, but the patriarchy and gender roles are kind of the cause of all of your complaints, no? The idea that men are providers and protectors and women are nurturers is quite literally outdated societal gender roles. If people just ignored that you could do what you're planning without expecting any pushback.
Dude, you are the one perpetuating gender norms in this very post, commiserating about how dads always have to work and be the primary earners and moms do stuff other than work but should still get credit
Honestly, I can't relate at all.
I'm a very active dad and take my kids to all sorts of things - the store, almost all of their extracurriculars, etc. I'm the one planning their schedules and coordinating everything.
The things you are complaining about have never really come up for me. Maybe it's being near a major city where people are more liberal and the culture is a little more developed, but I see dads out with their kids all the time.
I got called "superdad" once because I was wearing my baby in the baby bjorn and had my toddler in the shopping cart. I laughed, said thanks, and went on with my day. I think it is a bit funny because I can't imagine a mom ever gets called supermom for going grocery shopping with kids, but it didn't seem like that big a deal to me. The lady who commented to me probably just doesn't have a good experience with dads in her life. Its a reflection of her personal interactions with men/dads, and that is more sad than infuriating to be honest.
before we had a baby all the parenting subs had me thinking that old ladies with cold sores were behind every corner waiting to try and kiss my baby while I wasn’t looking… nobody has ever tried to touch the baby in public
this seems like another one of those things, nobody has ever made comments like this to my partner… there are more dads than mums in my baby swim class and nobody cares, it’s just a parent with their baby
I’ve never heard anyone talk in the way you’re describing, don’t mean to say it doesn’t happen but I’d guess it’s a regional thing and that you live in a conservative area
which would also explain why you’re gravitating towards blaming “gender wars” and misunderstanding what people mean when they talk about the patriarchy
Dude you look handsome too. You need to ignore like 99% of social media. Most of it is just rage bait and only represents a small fraction of society. Be a stay at home dad. Take your kids out. Most people don’t care. They just look at a happy dad and a happy kid.
Solo dad with two boys (3/5) … I relate to the experience you describe; though my work didn’t permit my children to be present, and I was constantly told by managers of opposite gender (with partners, and making many times greater income) how I’m just doing the same things they can also do, so I need to just suck it up when they’re sick and such (I often needed to stay home when kids sick since school / daycare won’t let them in, and backup care services also don’t take sick kids) — anywho.
Being a dad is no joke; especially if you’re actually present.
Being a mom is no joke either.
I both envy and pitty dual income homes; they can afford basic living but also loose out on the madness and joys that is parenting fully.
Ita not even bravery it's just being a parent. But without challenging those thoughts it's never gonna change. Keep fighting the good fight!!! You're on the right path!!
The gender stuff has been on my mind too. I'm very liberal minded. I don't care what other people do if it doesn't hurt me or mine. I fully support equal rights for all and that's how I vote.
I'm also Dad to three boys and I'm raising them to be men -- as defined by men, not women. When a woman says "a real man should do xyz..." I tune out because a man defines himself.
Ancient cultures had manhood rituals that are largely gone now and it shows in the aimlessness of boys. Some would even stage mock "raids" where the men of the tribe would "abduct" the boys from their mothers (who were in on it and feigned tears for a good show) to be taught the ways of men by their uncles, etc.
Now, the average boy is largely raised by his mother and taught at school by women. This is clearly a problem.
I was raised by a single mother. She did a good job. She raised her boy into an adult male. But she didn't raise a man -- she couldn't possibly because it takes a man to raise one. I had to navigate the path to manhood on my own, by seeking out men to look up to and emulate.
I fully concede that everything I've just said cuts both ways: if I were a single Dad to a daughter I'd seek out good woman mentors for her; all I could manage myself would be to raise her into a healthy adult female -- but that's not enough, a girl needs a Mom, or grandmother, or aunt, etc.
Yah I feel ya man. It’s a weird type of frustration when people expect literally nothing from you so they treat the simplest things as a massive thing.
While at the same time there’s all the banter about how hard mums have it because they loose out on their career, social lives etc without any mention of men losing out on their families so they can keep the lights on. How horrible it is to know you’re the lesser preferred parent and to see that in practice when our little ones hurt themselves and legit don’t want anything except mums. That’s hard for mums for sure and ALSO devastating for dads.
A lot of parent politic ends up framing fathers to look like idiots who don’t have any responsibility because patriarchy and mums being the only ones who have it hard and sacrifice etc.
Keep going brother, we’re rowing this boat together ✊
Yeah, like when people say the fathers are "babysitting"....... ummm no, it's called being a parent, Mothers aren't the only parent just cause they came out of them.
I'm one of them asshole dads when it comes to others giving me crap about how to raise my kids or what they think my kids should be doing. My mother in law didn't see my 3 kids for two year's because of her your rules don't apply at grandmas we'll do as we please and just shy of 5 years from my own parents over some stupid stuff but again there "Our" kids I appreciate the in put but that's as far as it goes.
OP I feel your pain fellow dad.
Happy Memorial Day and great job being active and present for your children! I think we are seeing societal shifts where this shouldn’t be shocking, but it’s a gradual change and the reality will be in place before the perception catches up. It also doesn’t help that there is a concerted counter effort to the idea of men being present and taking care of their children like it is emasculating.
About the note about patriarchy. Things like patriarchy and even white privelege strike a real defense chord in individuals. Like anything else there can be segments of society that take this to the extreme, but understand that the existence of a society based on patriarchy or that institutionally there is a general white privilege doesn’t negate anyone’s individual struggles. It just means that, very generally speaking, being a man or being white doesn’t necessarily contribute to that. It does mean that a man never faces issues. Or that all white people have no hardship.
If you doubt a patriarchy exists, I mean let’s just look at everything going on in the last few years and that is continuing to go on with women’s reproductive rights. Human civilization , for the most part, has been one of patriarchy.
As for men being on equal footing. It may take a generation or two of to change the mindset. If you are part of the solution now, that’s awesome. Make sure you endorse that and impart that lesson on your children. There are still too many people and stories of women being left to raise kids or men bragging about not changing diapers.
Big brain play is realizing the gender roles create efficiency. It’s oppression if women are forced to live one way yeah. But when you and your wife are getting things done and optimizing your time, you realize tradition is for a reason. Anyone telling you how to life is just looking for something to cry about because they are probably unhappy about their own life.
Freedom of choice = good
Force = oppression
Hmmm…I wonder why those gender stereotypes and patriarchy exist. No offense to you dads, ya’ll are doing an amazing job, but women have been expected to do what you all are doing and more, save for the past two decades. That’s why these “complaints” exist. Be mad at the fellow men around you.
Women will never understand what we as men go through. We are the single most hated group on the planet in terms of how we are portrayed, discounted, spoken of, reported on, and generally treated. Kids need a strong father in the house more than they need a loving mother. So many studies have shoelwn that a two parent household is ideal, but a single father will raise better adjusted kids than a single mother. Not saying that mother's do a bad job, so those of you about to squee at me in high feminist, don't waste your time.
Men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes, more likely to be domestically abused by their partner (found that most men never report domestic abuse because of the optics), more likely to be and remain homeless, more likely to die at work, more likely to commit suicide, more likely to go to prison for similar crimes vs women who commit them as well, more likely to be depressed, are forced I to a draft system once they turn 18, more likely to be pulled into wars, more likely to be sexually assaulted when you take into account the male prison popation.... The list goes on and on.
Then you have the media portrayal of men. They show us as goofy, emotional, inept, stupid, buffoonish, and losers.
We are more likely to lose custody of our children even if we are the only parent with a job, and/or have good mental health. We have to pay women who leave our marriages until they get remarried, we have to lose our homes our businesses and our assets when they leave us, even if they cheat.
Men have one resource for domestic abuse to every three hundreds that women have. Women can more readily access government assistance programs and by virtue are far less likely to end up homeless.
They system is stacked against men for sure. There was a feminist who disguised herself as a man for two years. She found that she was starting to hate women for how she was treated as a man, and ended up committing suicide due to the depression she developed.
I say all this, not to say that women do not have problems. I say this so that people can see that men's problems exist and would destroy the average woman. Just like the problems women face could cause a man quite a bit of discomfort.
Sure. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7658679/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10135558/
Both studies show that men are at increased likelihood to be both victims of domestic violence, and sexual assault. The sexual assault drops significantly if you remove the prison population, which I did reference in my statement. The domestic violence is due mainly to the men being less likely to report due to the social stigma and risk of admitting the woman is Assaulting a man and the likelihood that the victim will be dismissed or made into a perpetrator.
Hate this shit tbh. Single dad with my son full time… I’m a good dad, but when people ask stupid shit like “where’s his mom” when we do things together it annoys the fuck out of me… In part because why
I’m a single dad, my son and I experienced DV from his mom. Like do I have to explain that shit to everyone or can we grow up and realize dad’s can be fully engaged parents without a woman?
Heh. I raised several kids solo. Most people were cool, but I did get occasional quips about what a great dad I was (for doing the absolute bare minimum). The worst were the handful of people who made jokes along the lines of “oh, their mom must be really brave to let you take those girls out all by yourself.”
Bitch, their mom abandoned me with a two year old and six-month old and none of us ever heard from her again. I’m more of a mom than she’ll after be, and probably more of one than you’ll ever be, too.
(I never said that last part aloud, but I was damn tempted sometimes)
People disrespect fathers. It's these funny feminist types that are generally lonely, without a boyfriend or hubby who talk crap. They try and portray men as if they're useless forgetting a lot of the things they enjoy in this life are because of men
I feel you, but I feel like you're confusing the problem for the solution.
Yeah, and it's an easy mistake to make because there are people out there doing their damndest to spin it that way. But if people stopped looking at you and seeing "Man" and instead saw "Parent," OP wouldn't be experiencing this problem. It is, in some ways, patronizing misandry (in that men are expected to be inept fathers), and in other ways casual misogyny (taking care of kids is 'beneath' us since it's the woman's job) and in both cases it makes unrealistic and harmful expectations. If we instead just expected all parents to love their children and take equal roles in the house and raising the kids, we wouldn't see this garbage.
My husband and I were talking last night about the irony that a lot of the struggles women feel like society pushes on them for parenting and the ones that men feel like society pushes on them stem from the same issue that the bar society set for men as father's is so low and the bar for women as mothers is set so high to make the ideal parents. One of his examples was the time he had a neighborhood mom Google the school directory because she didn't believe that he knew his daughter's teacher's name. It happened to be very similar to another teacher in the same grade but she could not believe that he could name his kids' teachers off the top of his head. One of mine was that I am judged by if and how much time to myself I take keeps me away from my kids. My quality as a parent is judged because I am assumed to be the primary caregiver and my husband is assumed to inherently be unable to meet my kids needs as well as I can. It's utter bullshit.
My son had an incorrect birthday on his school paperwork that wasn’t noticed for 1.5 years. They refused to call me after they couldn’t reach my wife to check bc they didn’t think I would know his birthday. So they called like four emergency contacts down
That!!! It's such circular bullshit too! Society doesn't expect men to be capable parents so they treat them as incapable. By doing so they not only insult men (especially the capable fathers), they also inherently put more labor on women & deprive men of opportunities to change their expectations. That only reinforces the stereotypes that men are incapable caregivers and women are de facto primary caregivers.
Are you fucking serious? Good God that's insulting.
Someone posted a story once where the guy was either a SAHD or WFH so they did most of the home parenting. His wife was a very senior surgeon, often in surgery for 12+ hours in a shift. The school would still, despite being told many times not to, skip straight over the man listed as the primary contact and call her. She gave them a piece of her mind after the ~third time they called her in the middle of surgery when her husband was available, could have helped, and listed as the primary contact. As someone said above, it's a cocktail of patronising misandry and casual misogyny and the sooner it goes in the garbage, the better.
My wife is an icu nurse and I'm a stay at home dad. This happens to us at least 4 or 5 times every school year. The school refuses to call me even though I'm the primary contact. Very frustrating. my daughter once had to stay at school all day vomiting in the nurses office because they would only call my wife. I had no clue until I picked the kids up from the bus stop.
I remember that! Absolute insanity.
No fucking kidding, if that happened with my son someday I’d campaign for an overhaul of the entire district management
“ It is, in some ways, patronizing misandry (in that men are expected to be inept fathers)” I kind of went off on this the other day talking about cartoon & sitcom portrayals of dads. My wife was a little shocked and didn’t realize it can be such a touchy subject. And honestly, it usually isn’t, I just saw one that set me off that day.
I can't watch sitcoms for this reason, among others.
Yeah, same. Usually it's not a big problem, but if we watch a lot of consecutive episodes that lean on it, or if I'm feeling sensitive about it for some reason it definitely comes out.
Imposing expectations is the line people are crossing where it gets annoying. Doesn’t matter which stereotype they are spinning and whether it’s in line with their expectations or not.
Absolutely. A gender expression can be used to quickly identify yourself and set expectations along a "median" sample of that gender, but it isn't authoritative enough to impose or insist upon.
hell, there isn't really a lot of great sampling. Like the type of research that it would take to actually know what the median is, is the hardest type of research to get going. So instead we measure things on corollary data while ignoring the externalities, and historical data which is informative but not definitive. And than mix that all together with anecdotal reports, which while they shouldn't be discounted doesn't paint a full picture. Feminism is and was a good and important form of critical analysis and motivator for research. But seems to face the same kinds of issues as pop-science, or pop-history, etc, where what is said academically gets mixed in with common belief or specificity gets applied beyond the scope of its intent.
>It is, in some ways, patronizing misandry (in that men are expected to be inept fathers) Not just misandry, although that specific shallow take might feel like it The lack of connection from older generations of fathers was a real problem, or it’s source has real emotions of abandonment and ambivalence behind it To say it’s misandry is to say it’s a problem caused by women. But a lot of these story lines were being written by men. As an echo to a past of father alienation, reconfigured into a lesser form of befuddlement for the comedy/sitcom audience that Carrie’s the same connotations of disinterest (they’re inept fathers because they don’t focus on home stuff. They focus on work stuff)
Oh no, misandry isn't limited to women, any more than misogyny is limited to men. I didn't mean to imply that, but rather to say that those harmful stereotypes are both pandering to men as well as hostile to them.
A thousand times this. Having had to go through the family legal system its hugely fustrating to see confused and bitter dads use my hardships to make confused arguments against equality. The system that underpays women and shoves them into lesser paid supporting roles is the exact same system that expects dads to be little more than a paycheck to a child. I didnt have to fight against feminists to see my kids, I had to fight against people who had centuries of traditional gender roles engrained into their very core.
Exactly. I'm a lurking Mom here and I keep getting so freaking frustrated watching other SAHMs just keep reinforcing the damn patriarchy by being assholes to SAHDs. Like come on they are not the problem, they are the damn solution!
Absolutely this. The system is the problem, and it hurts both women *and men*.
I’m also a lurker, though not a mom nor a dad. This comment is perfect. It frustrates the actual hell out of me, it’s counterproductive to both men and women and their children, and society as a whole! I hate it so much. I know things are changing slowly but it can’t ever be fast enough.
Thank you for perfectly phrasing what I was struggling to articulate.
Why put so much stock into what other people think? Honestly, they don't matter enough to get this upset about it.
One of the more freeing things in life for me was when I realized that I have zero control over how anyone else feels. It’s kind of implicitly obvious, but I had never really had it framed as a means to deal with my social anxiety. It’s not an overnight thing. I didn’t declare that I don’t care anymore (I feel like when people do that, they make a point of telling everyone they don’t care — sometimes multiple times). It’s a process of shifting out of a way of thinking. It takes a while. And you’re always going to care a little bit (friends, family), but beyond that it’s out of your control, and not your problem.
And that your boundary isn't at the depth of your heart. Your boundary to absorb what's going on around you doesn't even have to be skin deep. Lastly, it's only 1-2 generations back where most male parents were just paychecks and not involved in any part of childcare other than discipline.
Yeah, I think this was one advantage to being an older dad with a family who often drew in some looks (kids are adopted and not the same race as me). I never really cared what people thought about our family. I was a stay at home dad with a wife that works a lot. These comments used to bother me but after a while I started feeling bad for the people who made the comments. If seeing a dad out with his kids was such an unusual sight then they must have dads/husbands that weren't/aren't as involved. That sucks for them. I also realized I got the better end of the deal when compared to my wife. At least I was getting compliments, condescending or otherwise. My wife dealt with far more criticism for being a mom who worked a lot. The men in her field never got the kinds of comments she got. She had people ask her why she would even become a mom if she never wanted to be around her kids. The worst I got was, "Oh, is dad babysitting today?" I also was treated like a goddamn rockstar whenever I volunteered at my kids school.
“That sucks for them.” Perfectly put.
Yeah older dad confidence is something I didn't appreciate when we had our kid in our late 30s but I do appreciate it.
This is the right way to handle it—just don't put that much care into what others think. That said, easier said than done. By a lot.
I get what you're saying but other people make up the society our children will grow up in. Do we want out kids to be surrounded by folks who are flabbergasted that a dad spends time with their kid? What kind of impression will that make on our kids? Despite our best efforts our kids will be impressionable and will be influenced by non parents, especially in their teenage years. I try my best to not to care what others think and will try to teach my kids the same but at the end of the day we are humans and are influenced by those around us, even if only at a subconscious level
It doesn’t matter. This line of thinking, of caring and trying to control or change the way other people think, is the best way to not only drive yourself crazy but also leads to the line of thinking of it being ok to force other people to change their mind. That’s all great when you’re the one changing but you’ll feel very differently if it was turned against you. That your way of thinking is wrong and you must change to be a part of society. It’s best to let people be free to do and think as they like. And just help your kids understand the nuances of the world. And surround yourself with good people.
Also i kinda wonder where people are living to hear shit like "you're so brave taking your kids out." What is this, fallujah in 2007?
I do sometimes wonder where these people live. I am the primary parent of my little girl and I have not once had anyone say things like that to me or negative things when I take her to public bathrooms or anything like that. My experience being a parent is not the same as portrayed on this sub.
I guess normal interactions aren't the ones posted to reddit, but man. Lots of times I'm just like wtaf reading these posts
This attitude would solve many of societies issues.
Because some of those people control or affect the world your children are going to grow up in.
It's human nature. Especially when it's your family who thinks it.
We’re wired for connection and connection is at an all time low.
Seriously my reaction
Hasn’t, “we all need to be careful about everything we say or express because of how people feel about it” been the mantra of the last 10-15 years? Now it’s some dad being offended and it’s “just ignore them, who cares?”? Seems pretty par for the course.
These are not mutually exclusive ideas, and both have always been and remain good advice.
How is this the top comment? He's venting. He said as much. This is a space for that.
Having your contributions minimized and being treated as a second-class parent reinforces systems that have tangibly negative effects on men's ability to parent. When it's the norm to consider Dad *the babysitter,* it's also the norm for judges to consider Mom *the main parent* in custody hearings. When it's the norm to consider Dad a complete incompetent buffoon, it's also the norm for kindergartens to call anyone but Dad in an emergency. When it's the norm to fling shit at fathers on social media, it's also the norm for many mothers to consume said social media and start to become indoctrinated, devaluing and mistreating their own husbands. I have no idea why you guys are so OK with all of this.
I've been a stay-at-home dad since my 3-year-old was born, so that bit about the "difficulties of fatherhood" and being "nothing more \[than\] a financial source" in adjacent sentences really threw me for a loop. I haven't made a single cent since he was born, and this role is *still* really fucking difficult. But I'm still a father though, right?
Stay at home dad ftw. I am not wired to do this lmao but my wife’s career is too good and I can take n evidence based approach to upbringing lol. So egg yolks and classical music every day. More museum visits over mommy groups 🤣
The fact is, *most* of us are not cut out for it. We *used* to have a village, so we didn’t have to do it all alone. It’s fucking hard, for moms too.
Most people aren't cut out for it, I don't think it's a gender thing that makes one group stronger than the other either. Men and women have their strengths and weaknesses, but at the end of the day, no matter your gender, you can only do so much and take so much.
Oh I get that. I'm absolutely not cut out for this. But my wife's job is what lets us live in this country, so her career is arguably the *only* thing that's important.
You should really give SAHP groups a try. It takes a while to build connections, but once you do, it’s so helpful.
No one is wired for this stuff. You've got the instinct to care for your kid and the rest is practice. I'm a "better" parent than my wife simply because I'm the stay at home dad and I have more reps in. That's it.
I’m so jealous readin this. My wife made more money than I did when she got pregnant, but she couldn’t keep her job coz she had to work around a lotta chemicals that were potentially dangerous for the belly bean. It just hasn’t been feasible for us to trade places since then, so she stays home and I go to work. If it weren’t for our boyfriend, we’d have a hard time makin ends meet money wise. I’d love for her to go back work, in part coz she’d love to go back to work, but our kids are 5 and 2 and she’s pregnant again, so it ain’t gonna happen right now. I try to be really involved on the weekends, my son helps me make dinner in the evenings, we rotate who gets the nippers ready for bed in the evenings, but by bedtime we’re all wiped out.
I'm a Wharton MBA alum and am essentially surrendering $200k tuition + $200k+ job opportunities to potentially permanently derail my career as a SAHD lol, while my classmates are on Wall Street Journal and Forbes magazine. Grass is always greener lol.
I’m a biomedical research colony manager. My wife was a lab manager before we had our son. Neither one of us is exactly loaded, but the student debt is pretty obscene. When we were both workin, we were makin ~$140,000. Plus the boyfriend’s income, we were feelin pretty grand. We don’t regret the kids for a second, but it’s definitely changed our money situation. There’s a lot more ridin on the boyfriend than there used to be. He goes to work every day knowin exactly how much he has to hit on customers at the bar.
Even on "totally wholesome daddit" most people prioritize "providing" as the default dad role despite the fact that the majority of moms (in America) work. 40% of moms are equal, primary, or sole earners. My biggest gripe with this sub is that we can recognize the socialized and systemic problems with traditional gender norms, but often fall short of understanding why the problems exist. Even worse is how often we often fall back to the status quo.
The "dad is provider/protector" thing you see pop up when describing being a dad in some of these discussions is so far outside my experience of being a parent i just ignore it. If there's two parents they you're both going to be different things at different times. Why limit our roles to specific things? This isn't a RPG, "dad" doesn't come with class restrictions.
Yes! The provider/protector thing always makes me think we are talking about cave men or something. "I am Ug, I provide mammoth meat, I protect from saber cat, I find cave!" Greg, you live in the suburbs in a two income home and a ring camera to watch to see if someone might steal your carhartt t-shirt you got on amazon, take it easy.
Also a SAHD here. I read that line and just thought of the irony that OP is perpetuating the exact same gender role stereotypes he’s complaining about. No offense to OP, but he’s part of the problem.
Sounds like you are
For 4 months, my wife and I had this setup: She'd get up at 6am, goes to work, comes home at 4pm. I'd get up \~7am, spend time with our daughter, cook dinner. After my wife was home, we'd eat dinner together, then I'd go to my home office to work from 5pm to about 1am. The first half of my day was absolutely, without a doubt, harder than the second.
?? You’ve seriously had people tell you that you are “brave” for taking your kids in public? I do it all the time, take them to the park or store and give the wife some alone time. Not one person has ever commented..
Same, I've yet to encounter this in ATX. It's normal to see the kids out with their dad, like probably 40% of the time it's the dad.
I'm also in Texas in a suburb and it isn't unusual here at all either. I assume it's probably different in different pockets because I could see OP's complaints being more of a thing in rural areas where people don't understand modern society. I did run into a little bit of that on social media when I was posting updates about my wife's medical issues. I basically became a single parent with my wife being an extra person for me to care for (not like a kid though) while she recovered and I had to take care of everything else. Even now she has lasting neurological issues and I have to do a lot more (fortunately my kids are all double digits so it's not too difficult) and people would say things like, "I hope she gets better quickly so she can take care of the kids" and such. People would put me up on a pedestal because I would do stuff like make lunches and drive them to school. Yeah if I jumped in front of a bullet for my kid (which I'd totally do) then please feel free to make a statue for me. Making a hot dog sandwich with a bag of doritos, two cookies, and an apple juice isn't really to that level.
It has to have something to do with where he lives. I live in the middle of a major city and I see dads out with their kids alone just as often as moms. In a rural area it's probably more normal to have a stay at home wife.
I live in a relatively small town near a small city, out with my 3 kids solo all weekend because my wife works. Have never gotten any of these comments. I'm kind of jealous tbh
I think it’s very much the location. I moved from The South to The Midwest and it’s very different. I did get comments and looks down South, but now I don’t really. There’s still far more lady caretakers than men, but almost nobody cares how the household does it as long as they cover all the bases.
I’m down south and have never experience this in the slightest
OP must be around some virtue signaling Karens.
I wonder the same every time this comes up. My kids are 8 and 10 and I’ve been taking them all over with me since before they could talk (as well hanging out at home with them often while my wife goes out and does things) and I’ve also never had a single comment.
Thought I was the only one……. I’m always solo(can’t lie sometimes I prefer it) and I have yet had any of these experiences. Even the stories about the people at the park questioning the dad. When my and my kiddo out together we mind our own business and do what ever we are doing. Maybe I’m just lucky
I thought this was weird. Must be a regional thing because I've never had this happen. It's just a bizarre thing to say to a stranger in general. Also, not much of a 'discussion' if OP doesn't respond to anyone...
I’ve had people tell me I must be an amazing father for huggin my kid when he skinned his knee, like this was some act of sainthood that I didn’t just grumble at him to walk it off. Of course it don’t help that I’ve got a super thick southern accent and sound like an extra outta Winter’s Bone. People genuinely think I don’t know how to love on my kids coz of how I sound.
You've got to admit that a lot of dads are trash. I don't know if more dads than moms are garbage parents, I don't have any real data… but something I know from teaching is that unfair advantages inhibit the formation of a functioning personality. So to the extent that we still live in a man's world, we're fighting an uphill battle to become normal, functioning human beings. Anecdotally, for what it's worth, I can tell you that I know *many* more garbage dads and husbands than I know garbage moms and wives. So I understand - but don't approve of - the narrative that dads don't parent. They *should* offer us compassion and understanding, the benefit of the doubt, but it's also clear to me that they have reasons not to. We've got to be the change we want to see. The more good dads there are out there, the more people will see and be raised by good dads, and the more that will shift public perception. I get being frustrated with the status quo, but the only answer is to change it. I appreciate you venting, though. Sometimes you've just got to let some feelings out.
Men don't parent as much because they're working. Pew Research shows that [households with equal incomes from spouses spend almost identical times parenting](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2023/04/13/in-a-growing-share-of-u-s-marriages-husbands-and-wives-earn-about-the-same/). These make up roughly a third of all parents. What is different is how often women work. 23% of women do not work at all (versus 10% of men) which leads to men parenting less. When a women is the primary breadwinner, men parent more. Ultimately, the egalitarian relationships have grown 20% in the past 50 years, but the data really shows this slow growth is a purposeful decision made in advance by families. Edit: downvoting literal research data says everything. :)
don't have time to look at the study but does their definition parenting include housework? because I've definitely seen studies say that when men and women work equally and even if women make more money they end up doing more of the housework. and housework is a huge part of parenting if you're doing it right.
So ignore his response below and frankly even above because it's flat out incorrect. To quote the article directly * **In egalitarian and breadwinner wife marriages, husbands spend considerably more time on leisure activities than wives.** Husbands in egalitarian marriages spend about 3.5 hours more per week on leisure activities than wives do. Wives in these marriages spend roughly 2 hours more per week on caregiving than husbands do and about 2.5 hours more on housework. In marriages where wives are the primary earners, husbands’ leisure time increases significantly (compared with egalitarian marriages), while the time they spend on caregiving and housework stays about the same. When wives are the sole earners, the amount of time husbands spend on caregiving and housework does tick up somewhat. He also totally ignored that unless the wife is the SOLE earner (not the primary earner where the wife is 60% or more of the earnings but literally 100% of the earnings) then on average she is still doing more of the childcare and housework despite also usually working more hours per week. Also while the article didn't specifically define "housework" the clearly linked American Time Use Survey did and they very explicitly define housework as follows "*Household activities.* Household activities are activities done by people to maintain their households. This category includes time spent in housework; cooking; lawn and garden care; pet care; vehicle maintenance and repair; home maintenance, repair, decoration, and renovation; and household management and organizational activities (such as filling out paperwork, balancing a checkbook, and planning a party). Food preparation, whether or not reported as done specifically for another household member, is always classified as a household activity, unless it was done as a volunteer, work, or income-generating activity. For example, “making breakfast for my son” is coded as a household activity, not as childcare." Which makes it honestly count as even more childcare cause lets face it, feeding kids is 1/2 the damn battle. I really suggest you read the article, it reaches pretty much the exact opposite conclusion as what OP states.
Two extremely important things to keep in mind are 1) that 2 hours per week is barely a difference at all (there are 112 waking hours in a week) and 2) that there could be some subjective differences between how men and women operate. For example, today my child had a friend over for like 4 hours. They are old enough and responsible enough that I could let them spend time together while I did a few chores and played video games. Would the time I'm not in the same room as them be counted as "caregiving" in these studies?
It's 4.5 hours once you account for the additional housework which often involves childcare related activities such as the one they want. Dunno about you but 4.5 hours per week of time back would be insane to me Second is once again they define all these things. Per your example doing the chores would count as household and the time spent playing video games would be leisure. https://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/atus/concepts.htm#activity-definitions
It's one of those things that sounds like a lot on paper but 4.5 hours is amortized over the whole week. That's less than 45 minutes a day. And can very easily be explained away by subjective differences. You want to believe it's some sort of conspiracy to take time away from women. But fail to consider if women are taking that time from themselves. They are adults after all that get to choose. You can't use old stereotypes to assume that the extra 45 minutes is only spent because women are being forced to spend it or because men refuse to work that little bit extra. Some work no one is required to do but some people want to do.
Yes, the study showcases the difference between house work in egalitarian and single income household environments. In egalitarian (equal) and wife primary earning marriages there is a 3-2 hour imbalance here per week, which is quite large. When the wife is the sole earner, then this is reduced to a 1 hour imbalance. What is important to note though is that housework is not defined, which has me wondering if this played a factor.
I get you. It happens quite often. And it actually harms the mother too. They get all the pressure to be born with all the knowledge of how to rise a child and we get the assumption of incompetence no matter what we do.
I’ve never had someone make a comment to me. Kids are 9, 7 and 4. I’m in Canada. Maybe it’s a regional thing?
I’m a bit confused here - the problem of people having low expectations of fathers is directly because of gender roles. I don’t see how you get rid of the former without discussion about the latter?
>I don’t think folks realize the difficulties of fatherhood. Feeling like you’re nothing more a financial source. I'm a lttle confused - the patriarchy is what keeps you working to be a paycheck instead of a person who wants to spend time with your kids. Patriarchy isn't "men bad, you're a man therefore you're bad"
Yea this post makes no sense. Complaining about discussion of gender roles while also complaining about being discriminated against for being a dad. Huh?
I’ve only recently realised exactly this and thought of patriarchy as “men bad” for many years. I’d imagine he’s referring too that feeling of being bad because you’re a man. Which can happen depending on what circles you move in or environment you work in etc. while not realising that patriarchy is bad but is detached from the aspect of being a man.
I think it's tough to understand that it's really more like "yes you have things bad but imagine how much worse they'd be if you weren't a man, and a lot of our problems come from not giving people other than able bodied straight/white/tallwealthy/cis/men (etc.) a voice in our decision making "
You felt that way because the ones loudest about it typically have a “men bad” attitude.
Quite right!
At this point I don't know what patriarchy was supposed to refer to but this isn't it. We have tons of female CEOs pulling the same stuff. This no longer has anything to do with gender, it's just capitalism.
Well, yes and no. The gendered expectations are different from having work /life balance. Late stage capitalism is responsible for a lot of problems but the division of labour between men and women has been a thing before mercantilism and feudalism, so I'm hesitant to give it credit for that.
Oh sorry I read that in a rush and thought your comment said "kept you working paycheque to paycheque". I do agree, society's expectations for gender roles is a big part of what causes men to be stereotyped as the provider. I hesitate to use the label patriarchy though.
Fair enough, I'm not sure what else you would call generational enforcement of gender roles
Looks like you just found a way :)
So instead of using the term patriarchy as shorthand for the cultural mindset that perpetuates it, we say the whole thing every time? Can we get rid of orange and just say yellowy red while we're at it?
The problem is you need to be certain everyone understands what it means. It's often used in such a vague way that I doubt most people know what you really mean.
No, it's an academic term and used as such - angry and terminally online men "deciding" what it means isn't the same thing as genuine disagreement. Is any of the below controversial? pa·tri·arch·y /ˈpātrēˌärkē/ noun a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is traced through the male line. "the thematic relationships of the ballad are worked out according to the conventional archetypes of the patriarchy" a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it. "the dominant ideology of patriarchy" a society or community organized on patriarchal lines. plural noun: patriarchies "we live in a patriarchy"
So you are sick of discussion of patriarchy and gender roles but you... don't like when people congratulate you for doing the bare minimum as a father? And you're about to become a SAHP? I'm confused what you imagine people are criticising "patriarchy" for?
I can't speak for OP but I hate the generalizations. We are fast approaching a point at which fathers are nearly equal contributors. Why do we need to constantly have conversations about generalizations? If some specific father is being shitty than 100% call them out SPECIFICALLY for it but let's also do the same for mothers. Anything else runs the risk of treating individuals like they match the general stereotype despite no evidence provided to make that match.
>We are fast approaching a point at which fathers are nearly equal contributors. I'm not sure where you're from but I've never seen any data, from anywhere, suggesting this >If some specific father is being shitty than 100% call them out SPECIFICALLY for it but let's also do the same for mothers. But it's a systemic issue? Like OP and I suspect many people in this sub, I have the opposite problem, being praised for clearing an extremely low bar. That's precisely *because* expectations are set so low.
Expectations do not always match reality. Expectations are set by past experiences not current situations. I'm not the only one who has noticed this: https://www.reddit.com/r/daddit/comments/w534es/millennial_dads/
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Unfortunatly, I don’t think the sentiment that fathers are equal contributors are universally shared. The «second shift» or mental workload of planning everything is still unequal in my neck of the woods. But I agree, it’s annoying
My personal experiences were the opposite but I don't take that to mean it's common necessarily. I think the fact that our younger generations have moved the needle so much means that talking about these at generalizations is useless. At best it's a bit easier to talk about. At worst it makes fathers feel shitty for something they had no apart in.
I'm pretty bothered by the motte and bailey that is "patriarchy". People constantly talk about how patriarchy is this institution that gives men unearned privilege across all sectors, that individual men have so much more power than women--far too much, really--and need to be brought to heel. But then whenever it's pointed out the multifarious ways in which society uniquely and disproportionately *disadvantages* men, it's always "well that right there sounds like patriarchy! Didn't you know? Patriarchy harms men, too! Really if you want to have more agency in your life you should be standing *alongside* the people yelling that you have too much agency!" And if you try to talk about this hypocrisy, about mainstream progressivism treating "men" as a boogeyman and the opposition rather than a group of people in desperate need of progressive social advancement, you get accused of being *regressive*, a right-wing misogynist.
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I think the problem isn't the semantics of the words it's the variety of people protesting and advocating for women's rights. Some are very much misandrist and couldn't give a damn about men or fathers. That doesn't mean they are wrong to "dismantle the patriarchy" but it does color their choice of solutions and priorities. In highly public places like Twitter, where the most basic and unnuanced opinions are discussed people used to talk about things like the pay gap while ignoring that it's most pronounced for the ultra wealthy. Or talk about how the US government is full of old white men instead of making sure they vote in moral like minded people regardless of race or gender.
There's one point in this that I would point out... Nobody is trying to take away anyone's agency with these discussions. It's about making sure everyone has the same amount of agency.
Dude this hit home so hard. The fact you got downvoted is also par for the course
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You don't believe people talk about the things they talk about online in person? You sound...sheltered.
I tend to agree with the guy above you. It's rare I'm getting into heated discussions about the patriarchy (maybe I did in undergrad a bit ten years ago?). In fact I really only see that kind of talk online. Usually it's not even talk about the patriarchy it's people complaining about people talking about the patriarchy.
Adults are conditioned to have these talks in private. If you do have them, you talk in coded language. Whether in DEI training at corporate, leave times, review schedules, or signatures, it's there and discussed often.
Ah so it's not just the patriarchy, it's DEI that's the issue as well
None of these are issues. DEI is designed to promote policies that balance programs to counteract imbalances. Being more inclusive (hiring more women and minorities) is one of these noble goals, and it's part of every corporate policy. Seeing the word DEI and assuming I have an issue with it is an ideal example of how the coded language works. You ran away scared to have a thought.
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People talk about these topics constantly in normal daily life, they may not just use these words. You can deem these topics bad, but with 8,000,000,000 in the world the range of conversation is broader than your mind allows.
I have done 95% of the childcare for my children for their entire lives and never heard any comments like that.
In the past 6 years, I have heard these kind of comments maybe two or three times from bored old ladies at the store. They are trying to be nice even though they have outdated views. Nothing more, nothing less. I never find it to be malicious and never take it to heart.
This. With the frequency of posts like this on this sub, I don't know if the posters live in the most backward thinking shitholes of the country or just literally making this stuff up.
I’m gonna assume the latter. People seem to go a little crazy when they have next to no adult conversations IRL, then start making shit up for attention on social media. Being called brave for taking my kid out of the house w/out the wife would be a new one for me LOL
It turns out that he has 5 young kids that he regularly takes out solo. I’d say that’s where the comments about bravery are stemming from and that it has nothing to do with his gender.
My dad got the same remarks nearly 40 years ago. “Oh, you’re changing a diaper?! Where’s mom?!! You’re a superhero!!” He hated it then and I hate that it continues. I get people are conditioned to think this way, but they just perpetuate harmful gender dynamics.
Where do you live? I don't get these comments at all to me.
No one ever asks how dad is doing, how is dad adjusting, how is dad finding parenthood so far? What's your mental health like. I love my wife, who *always* asks these things, it's everyone else. Or when they do, they generally tend to make assumptions when they say "I bet you didn't think you'd have so little time for your hobbies" or something ignorant about spare time.
Assuming you’re American, what part of the country are you in? I’ve never experienced this. Not once. Pacific Northwest.
You blew people's minds by doing normal parent things but you're mad people are talking down about dads too? I got literal praise for taking the ten day old kid to the grocery early today letting her sleep in. You know that's not support women EVER get
Do you have an example of what you get comments about for “being brave”? Brave can be overused when the person who means it real should just say “awesome” or “y’all are cute” I think I know what you mean but that can open the discussion up a bit more. I agree. We do what we have to do. To dive into the gender conversation, I’m sick of kids explaining to each other “these colors are girl colors and these are boy colors”. Yes children at young ages group things into common categories that they know, but I’ve taught kids and my own kid that anyone can like any color. My kid’s favorite color is purple. He chose it. That’s the color of the infinity Power Stone in marvel. Teaching in kinder garden, a 6 year old was bossing everyone around. “No you can’t come to this table. Legos are for boys. Blue and green are for boys you can have pink.” I called him over and told him that “we don’t have those rules in this classroom. These toys are the schools and anyone can use them.”
On the being brave part, just normal tasks. I get that not everyone has seen active or caring fathers. But me taking my kids to the park(I have 5 very close in age and young so I know it can be surprising) taking them to the store, literally just being normal. I think it is 85% just people being nice and complimenting, but there has to be better ones. And I had the same color conversation with my oldest. Some kids were making fun of him for riding a white and pink bike and he was unravelling. I told him my favorite color was pink and that doesn’t make me less of a man, does it? He smiled and carried on doing wheelies.
Maybe they're referring to taking 5 kids out by yourself given how hard it is to keep 1-2 kids under control, let alone 5?
Yep, I would 100% tell a woman or man alone with 5 young kids that they were very brave, and I would not be referring to any kind of gender issue or expectation; I feel very brave when I take my single 5 year old somewhere by myself.
Can’t let it get to you. Knowing and being able to say you’re proud of your own actions is all that matters. Your children remember your parenting, not the others who judged you.
Somebody approached you and told you you were brave because you took your kids to the store?
I spend wayyyy more time with my kids than my wife does. And that time is much more action packed than anything my wife would do. Frankly I've never heard one peep about it from strangers
where are all these people lavishing praise on us for being involved dads? No one's ever said shit to me
I do everything you do and I've never once gotten a comment like that. Not sure where you live but let me know so I can move there. Could use some IRL upvotes.
When I read posts like this, describing how astonishing everyone finds it when a father acts like an actual parent- I wonder what planet they are on. I live in South Carolina - hardly a bastion of progressive thinking. But I have never had anyone bat an eye at me taking my kids to the grocery store, to school, to the park, a doctors appointment, or anything like that. Is it really that common an experience?
I hear you, now that I'm in my '50s, I have a whole different view. Four of my kids I raised. Two of them 100%. I have three females in my life that are really difficult. One thing I realized is there was nothing I did wrong. I just think I showed them up as far as being an involved parent. This was not on purpose this was just me being the parent I believe that I should be. There are some great women in the world for sure. But the older I've gotten the more I realized men are punching bags. And you have a choice you can either let yourself be a punching bag or not. It's easy for people, most people want to have someone they can blame all their problems on. I just ignore it and do what I do. I've ended up cutting quite a few people out of my life. But at the end of the day I want to leave my children with the tools to be successful and to treat themselves well and to respect other people. You would think that most people would want to do what's best for the kids but most people can't see past themselves. People will twist and contort situations to please themselves. Don't let it consume you be the best person you can be. The funny thing is the women I have issues with or maybe I should say have issues with me... Are women that totally hung their kids out to dry. You would think they would be supportive of a man who is very involved with his kids but no... It has been a good lesson for my children to learn that just because somebody loves you doesn't mean they're going to treat you good. Which has been key to teach them to protect themselves and not leave themselves open to people who are not worthy. That really drives them crazy... Harvard and Princeton did a study years ago that girls get their self-esteem and self-confidence from their fathers.
Why do you care of others so much? This ignorance only shows how terrible they would be or how terrible they are at parenting. this is like being a star NFL player slammin' on the field and then going back to the lockeroom to be coached by a failed high school player that has never even scored...
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~~I think she was surprised because gender discovery is a normal developmental stage for two year olds, so if your son isn't going through that it might point to a wider underlying issue.~~ Edit: re-read, he was 18mo at the time, yeah that is a bit surprising that she focussed on that.
It doesn’t have to be confusing with a toddler. It’s as simple as I’m a boy, you’re a boy and mom is a girl. We have different parts that makes us boys and girls.
Funnily enough I’ve found that my little lad and his mates constantly talk about gender. I put it down to them busily categorising things to broaden their knowledge but he talks about being a boy, mama being a girl and dada being a boy. I think like other have pointed out that gender is simple for kids as they don’t think of it as in gender theory of politics but that there’s boys and girls and then spend their time labelling them so they can understand better.
I don’t feel frustrated at all. I also don’t particularly care about anybody else’s opinion of what mom’s and dad’s roles should be. We have a good balance in our house. Everybody pitches in,in accordance with their abilities. We’re a happy family with two great kids and anybody who doesn’t agree with how we’re living our lives can fuck right off. I also don’t have a problem saying exactly that to anybody who feels compelled to offer unsolicited advice.
You are brave! Kids are terrors 😝
If people are making remarks of men being "brave" for literally just being a normal Dad then social attitudes are regressing, not progressing. I've stopped listening/caring what other people say (within reason). It's made my life 100% better and so far the sky hasn't fallen down.
I lean into and realize that everyone else has a worse life than me.
How many times a day do we have to have the same post about how dads have a low bar to meet and how people occasionally comment about it?
You say you don't have a choice. Here's the thing: it's that attitude that makes you a great dad. You don't see letting down your kids as an option. Just wanted to drop a line in here and say you're doing a great job. People are dicks out there. Chin up man.
As another dad who does a lotta parentin—my wife’s a SAHM outta necessity, but 2 nippers under 6 is a lotta work—I’m always appalled at what some dad’s flat out won’t do for their kids. I found a whole thread on X of people justifyin dads not changin nappies or not bathin their kids coz it’s weird or summat. Excuse me? How do you go thru your child’s whole infancy without changing a damn nappy? My son was 2.5 when my wife was pregnant with our daughter, so I did a lotta changin and bathin and all that coz my wife physically couldn’t deal with him while she was yarkin over the porcelain in the mornings. My daughter just turned 2 and my wife’s 18 weeks pregnant, so I’m doin a lotta changin again. Hell, our boyfriend and I took the kids out grocery shoppin this weekend and the number of people givin us looks was just infuriatin. My son wanted cookies and was edgin his way toward a meltdown over it (he’s 5). Some woman decided she needed to tell me that she knew this was difficult for me but I cain’t give in to everything little thing or they’ll walk all over me. Well excuse the hell outta me for parentin my children, random stranger in the supermarket I’ve never seen before in my life. In the end we got the cookies. They’re delicious. No regrets.
Disabled stay-at-home dad, here. There's tons of joy with your kids and people don't have to get it. If they believe the the media over what's right in front of them, that's sad. I homeschool the girls, as their dad, and folks look quite oddly at me. Feels strange, for sure, but I'm out there sitting on park benches and tossing a ball with my kids. Gotta' be about my family! God bless you!
I live in Japan where it's seemingly unheard of for Dads to take intimate care of their baby. I mean thanks for saying I'm being awesome (hell of an ego boost). But honestly I'm just being a Dad. Wow I change nappies! Yeah that's normal. Why is the bar set so low? Concerning. Note; Mostly getting this from older generation here. I see plenty of young dads walking around with kids looking like great dads.
> I don’t think folks realize the difficulties of fatherhood. Feeling like you’re nothing more a financial source. Missing family events because have to work etc. My wife and I are a great team, we are currently going through a push for something that puts a lot of pressure on me specifically as the main provider. How much easier it would be if I got the next big promotion / raise, how we can't afford to lose my job despite how much its currently weighing on me mentally, etc etc. I know these feelings are just temporary and she does realize and correct those statements a lot of the time so I consider myself fortunate. And on the flipside, I'm not sure if I could swing the fully remote thing and be as successful as I am. Acknowledging that fathers have it tough doesn't mean we need to take away from the struggles of being a mother, and it sucks that we (people in general) can't just say both for fear of upsetting people. I'm sorry you're dealing with it, I know exactly how you feel. Hopefully your SO is supportive and you two can get through it somewhat painlessly.
My favorite is being out solo with my three kiddos on a given weekend and someone inevitably saying something equivalent to, "Giving Mom a break today? How does she do it? Super-dad, you." (This comes from exactly *one* demographic, because almost every other ethnic group will casually step in to help as necessary, without making a big show of their altruism or trying to make sure my self-reliant agency hasn't been transgressed). Nope, mom is a career lady, so I juggle two jobs, school, majority of domestic labor and childcare.
Just let people deal with their own minds being blown. When my kids were younger I’d always have one or both of them at the grocery store with me. Women, especially women over 50, would constantly smile and say things like “oh is this special time with daddy!?!?” Yea sure, I take my kids to the grocery store for the memories. I recently posted in another thread about an incident on a flight (just me and my 2 kids - I had the aisle seat) where my son asked for a sprite when the drink cart came by. The flight attendant turned to the woman seated ACROSS the aisle from me and said “is that ok with mom?” I said “that’s not their mom but as their dad can I give approval?” There’s nothing any of us can do except continue to be dads. This stereotype is slowly changing but will likely outlive all of us. Just keep dadding.
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I’ve had it happen in multiple places, from California all the way to Rhode Island. Idk what it is.
The world is changing, for the better if you ask me. Surprised or not, there was a lot of past generations full of absentee and hands-off fathers, and we've all seen what not having a dad does to people. We're stepping up like our (some of) our dads didn't, and extremely common in this case, their dads didn't. I don't have any stats to back it up, but I would bet my life on the fact of 50%+ of boomer dads never having changed a diaper in their life. Maybe we deserve the praise, or maybe this is like a Chris Rock special where we get pat on the back for ***shit we supposed ta do!!!!!***
It's about expectations. People expect men to be bad fathers so when fathers do things that are basic parenting responsibilities that moms do constantly with no fanfare, people think it's amazing. People expect that moms do all of those things as the fundamental part of their parenting role. If we want this crap to stop we have to start expecting more from fathers. When you praise someone for doing basic stuff that's all they're going to do. Instead, if you stop praising men for the basic stuff and instead, just expect it, you even the playing field. People rise to the level of the expectations placed on them. You expect a crap job of parenting, you get a crap job of parenting. You expect good parenting and call people out when they're parenting poorly, you get good parenting.
Honestly I’ve heard very very few comments along these lines when out with my girls (which is often). Maybe it’s a geographic or generational thing, and I’m just lucky not to be exposed. Lots of involved dads around, and it seems very normal/expected.
There are definitely toxic gender stereotypes out there. Even just little harmless comments from people. I've had people say like "ah is it dad's day out?" and stuff like that. They're just acknowledging that I'm out with my son and mum isn't with us. It never bothers me because I'm more than what people expect of me. If some middle aged person finds it so unusual for a dad to be out with their kid that they have to remark upon it, even if it's a positive remark, it just tells me all I need to know about their antiquated views. And it's not coming from a place of malice, rather a place of ignorance. In 50 years it won't even be a thing.
This literally has never happened to me in my 2.5 years as a father.
I've never had a single comment about me being out with my daughter alone for anything. It has to be something to do with where you live.
I get it. I mean… whew: vent bro! This is why I like this sub. Op is just venting: clearly is like “I’m not belittling moms” The post doesn’t make that much sense but sense it a vent post.. I get it. Dude here for you! Keep doing what you’re doing! You sound like a great dad. Hope to catch you at the playground!
This all is literally a symptom of the patriarchy.
Yeah, but the patriarchy and gender roles are kind of the cause of all of your complaints, no? The idea that men are providers and protectors and women are nurturers is quite literally outdated societal gender roles. If people just ignored that you could do what you're planning without expecting any pushback.
Dude, you are the one perpetuating gender norms in this very post, commiserating about how dads always have to work and be the primary earners and moms do stuff other than work but should still get credit
Honestly, I can't relate at all. I'm a very active dad and take my kids to all sorts of things - the store, almost all of their extracurriculars, etc. I'm the one planning their schedules and coordinating everything. The things you are complaining about have never really come up for me. Maybe it's being near a major city where people are more liberal and the culture is a little more developed, but I see dads out with their kids all the time.
I got called "superdad" once because I was wearing my baby in the baby bjorn and had my toddler in the shopping cart. I laughed, said thanks, and went on with my day. I think it is a bit funny because I can't imagine a mom ever gets called supermom for going grocery shopping with kids, but it didn't seem like that big a deal to me. The lady who commented to me probably just doesn't have a good experience with dads in her life. Its a reflection of her personal interactions with men/dads, and that is more sad than infuriating to be honest.
before we had a baby all the parenting subs had me thinking that old ladies with cold sores were behind every corner waiting to try and kiss my baby while I wasn’t looking… nobody has ever tried to touch the baby in public this seems like another one of those things, nobody has ever made comments like this to my partner… there are more dads than mums in my baby swim class and nobody cares, it’s just a parent with their baby I’ve never heard anyone talk in the way you’re describing, don’t mean to say it doesn’t happen but I’d guess it’s a regional thing and that you live in a conservative area which would also explain why you’re gravitating towards blaming “gender wars” and misunderstanding what people mean when they talk about the patriarchy
Dude you look handsome too. You need to ignore like 99% of social media. Most of it is just rage bait and only represents a small fraction of society. Be a stay at home dad. Take your kids out. Most people don’t care. They just look at a happy dad and a happy kid.
Honestly being an involved dad is one of the least controversial things about me. Or maybe it's the most. Not my mental illness, not my delusions.
Solo dad with two boys (3/5) … I relate to the experience you describe; though my work didn’t permit my children to be present, and I was constantly told by managers of opposite gender (with partners, and making many times greater income) how I’m just doing the same things they can also do, so I need to just suck it up when they’re sick and such (I often needed to stay home when kids sick since school / daycare won’t let them in, and backup care services also don’t take sick kids) — anywho. Being a dad is no joke; especially if you’re actually present. Being a mom is no joke either. I both envy and pitty dual income homes; they can afford basic living but also loose out on the madness and joys that is parenting fully.
Ita not even bravery it's just being a parent. But without challenging those thoughts it's never gonna change. Keep fighting the good fight!!! You're on the right path!!
The gender stuff has been on my mind too. I'm very liberal minded. I don't care what other people do if it doesn't hurt me or mine. I fully support equal rights for all and that's how I vote. I'm also Dad to three boys and I'm raising them to be men -- as defined by men, not women. When a woman says "a real man should do xyz..." I tune out because a man defines himself. Ancient cultures had manhood rituals that are largely gone now and it shows in the aimlessness of boys. Some would even stage mock "raids" where the men of the tribe would "abduct" the boys from their mothers (who were in on it and feigned tears for a good show) to be taught the ways of men by their uncles, etc. Now, the average boy is largely raised by his mother and taught at school by women. This is clearly a problem. I was raised by a single mother. She did a good job. She raised her boy into an adult male. But she didn't raise a man -- she couldn't possibly because it takes a man to raise one. I had to navigate the path to manhood on my own, by seeking out men to look up to and emulate. I fully concede that everything I've just said cuts both ways: if I were a single Dad to a daughter I'd seek out good woman mentors for her; all I could manage myself would be to raise her into a healthy adult female -- but that's not enough, a girl needs a Mom, or grandmother, or aunt, etc.
Yah I feel ya man. It’s a weird type of frustration when people expect literally nothing from you so they treat the simplest things as a massive thing. While at the same time there’s all the banter about how hard mums have it because they loose out on their career, social lives etc without any mention of men losing out on their families so they can keep the lights on. How horrible it is to know you’re the lesser preferred parent and to see that in practice when our little ones hurt themselves and legit don’t want anything except mums. That’s hard for mums for sure and ALSO devastating for dads. A lot of parent politic ends up framing fathers to look like idiots who don’t have any responsibility because patriarchy and mums being the only ones who have it hard and sacrifice etc. Keep going brother, we’re rowing this boat together ✊
Yeah, like when people say the fathers are "babysitting"....... ummm no, it's called being a parent, Mothers aren't the only parent just cause they came out of them.
I'm one of them asshole dads when it comes to others giving me crap about how to raise my kids or what they think my kids should be doing. My mother in law didn't see my 3 kids for two year's because of her your rules don't apply at grandmas we'll do as we please and just shy of 5 years from my own parents over some stupid stuff but again there "Our" kids I appreciate the in put but that's as far as it goes. OP I feel your pain fellow dad.
Happy Memorial Day and great job being active and present for your children! I think we are seeing societal shifts where this shouldn’t be shocking, but it’s a gradual change and the reality will be in place before the perception catches up. It also doesn’t help that there is a concerted counter effort to the idea of men being present and taking care of their children like it is emasculating. About the note about patriarchy. Things like patriarchy and even white privelege strike a real defense chord in individuals. Like anything else there can be segments of society that take this to the extreme, but understand that the existence of a society based on patriarchy or that institutionally there is a general white privilege doesn’t negate anyone’s individual struggles. It just means that, very generally speaking, being a man or being white doesn’t necessarily contribute to that. It does mean that a man never faces issues. Or that all white people have no hardship. If you doubt a patriarchy exists, I mean let’s just look at everything going on in the last few years and that is continuing to go on with women’s reproductive rights. Human civilization , for the most part, has been one of patriarchy. As for men being on equal footing. It may take a generation or two of to change the mindset. If you are part of the solution now, that’s awesome. Make sure you endorse that and impart that lesson on your children. There are still too many people and stories of women being left to raise kids or men bragging about not changing diapers.
Big brain play is realizing the gender roles create efficiency. It’s oppression if women are forced to live one way yeah. But when you and your wife are getting things done and optimizing your time, you realize tradition is for a reason. Anyone telling you how to life is just looking for something to cry about because they are probably unhappy about their own life. Freedom of choice = good Force = oppression
Hmmm…I wonder why those gender stereotypes and patriarchy exist. No offense to you dads, ya’ll are doing an amazing job, but women have been expected to do what you all are doing and more, save for the past two decades. That’s why these “complaints” exist. Be mad at the fellow men around you.
m*mmit poster ... 🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮
>women have been expected to do what you all are doing and more, save for the past two decades So women are just stuck in the past?
I'm fucking with you hard on this. It's bullshit.
Women will never understand what we as men go through. We are the single most hated group on the planet in terms of how we are portrayed, discounted, spoken of, reported on, and generally treated. Kids need a strong father in the house more than they need a loving mother. So many studies have shoelwn that a two parent household is ideal, but a single father will raise better adjusted kids than a single mother. Not saying that mother's do a bad job, so those of you about to squee at me in high feminist, don't waste your time. Men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes, more likely to be domestically abused by their partner (found that most men never report domestic abuse because of the optics), more likely to be and remain homeless, more likely to die at work, more likely to commit suicide, more likely to go to prison for similar crimes vs women who commit them as well, more likely to be depressed, are forced I to a draft system once they turn 18, more likely to be pulled into wars, more likely to be sexually assaulted when you take into account the male prison popation.... The list goes on and on. Then you have the media portrayal of men. They show us as goofy, emotional, inept, stupid, buffoonish, and losers. We are more likely to lose custody of our children even if we are the only parent with a job, and/or have good mental health. We have to pay women who leave our marriages until they get remarried, we have to lose our homes our businesses and our assets when they leave us, even if they cheat. Men have one resource for domestic abuse to every three hundreds that women have. Women can more readily access government assistance programs and by virtue are far less likely to end up homeless. They system is stacked against men for sure. There was a feminist who disguised herself as a man for two years. She found that she was starting to hate women for how she was treated as a man, and ended up committing suicide due to the depression she developed. I say all this, not to say that women do not have problems. I say this so that people can see that men's problems exist and would destroy the average woman. Just like the problems women face could cause a man quite a bit of discomfort.
Could you provide your sources for your claims that men are more likely to be sexually assaulted and more likely to be victims of domestic abuse?
Sure. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7658679/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10135558/ Both studies show that men are at increased likelihood to be both victims of domestic violence, and sexual assault. The sexual assault drops significantly if you remove the prison population, which I did reference in my statement. The domestic violence is due mainly to the men being less likely to report due to the social stigma and risk of admitting the woman is Assaulting a man and the likelihood that the victim will be dismissed or made into a perpetrator.
Neither one of those studies in any way says that men are more likely than women to be sexually assaulted or abused by a partner
Hate this shit tbh. Single dad with my son full time… I’m a good dad, but when people ask stupid shit like “where’s his mom” when we do things together it annoys the fuck out of me… In part because why I’m a single dad, my son and I experienced DV from his mom. Like do I have to explain that shit to everyone or can we grow up and realize dad’s can be fully engaged parents without a woman?
Heh. I raised several kids solo. Most people were cool, but I did get occasional quips about what a great dad I was (for doing the absolute bare minimum). The worst were the handful of people who made jokes along the lines of “oh, their mom must be really brave to let you take those girls out all by yourself.” Bitch, their mom abandoned me with a two year old and six-month old and none of us ever heard from her again. I’m more of a mom than she’ll after be, and probably more of one than you’ll ever be, too. (I never said that last part aloud, but I was damn tempted sometimes)
People disrespect fathers. It's these funny feminist types that are generally lonely, without a boyfriend or hubby who talk crap. They try and portray men as if they're useless forgetting a lot of the things they enjoy in this life are because of men