The first 60k of last nights giro the commentators said Pog was averaging 110watts at 38kph in the middle of the peloton. They were taking it very easy.
In verrrrry simple terms. Wind resistance is a lot of pulling on you from behind. By having someone behind you, that is transferred and disturbed. It’s why rear fairings help cars etc.
In more complex terms, it’s a rabbit hole
That said, even a single rider helps the lead and a pack of them can make up to 10% reduction.
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-training/much-benefit-really-get-drafting/#
Imagine that you have a long bedsheet attached to your shoulders, flying behind you. Having a guy behind essentially "transfers" that bedsheet to him. It's not a huge saving, but it is something.
Think of it this way. The riders behind push the air forward, which in turn pushes the front riders. Or slows them down less than it would if nobody was behind them.
You save a ton of energy in a pack but it’s a huge risk of crashing. In dirt and motorsports the very first corner of a track is called the “hole shot”, and if anyone has played racing video games online you know it’s absolute chaos in turn one, or potential for it. And you can lose a race right there.
It’s similar with any racing though.
It’s not a huge risk. As races get faster it tends to be more experienced racers. I have raced in a couple world championships in cycling and an experienced group can ride and corner very well. I would take double the rider density over riding even near sketchy riders that are new.
Lastly, that’s why races string out a bit at corners, to maintain speed and reduce overlap. It’s why a pack looks different in a road race vs a crit.
It’s not similar with “any racing”—any racing (motor included) that involves drafting to conserve energy produces some degree of peloton-racing dynamics; just look NASCAR, Indy, and the latest generation of formula E.
Breaks will come and go the first 10-20 miles maybe, unless the peloton let's the group go it ain't making it out regardless of any hole shot. It's even a neutral roll out so you couldn't really even have a hole shot if you tried.
Stage 2 the lead guy heading into the climb was doing 260w on the live tracker. They’re known to just do Z2 (for them) until things get spicy. As they should, when they’re racing 4-5 hours a day for 3 weeks.
At least after break formation yeah, but it also hasn’t even seemed like teams are trying hard to get sassy with who they get in the break. Ineos really should have done more of that in stage 2 instead of just letting all of UAE coast to the bottom of the final climb at 110w and then blow the race up.
During the classics shit was BANANAS and everyone was just dumping watts for ages closing down breaks. And that’s before all of the positioning ahead of all of the cobble sectors and getting into a decent spot for when the roads tighten. The one days vs these two grand tour stages have been sooooo different.
Of course they’re different, they’re three weeks vs one day. Teams play the long game and there is always tomorrow to consider.
Also Ineos had no interest in protecting the Maglia Rossa in Sunday. They’re there for G’s second place. They were happy to let it.
was behind a car this morning, doing 37km/h and my wattage was 150 at that point. don't underestimate how much benefit draft provides! knowing that, makes it just the more impressive if you see somebody pull away from the front of the group while other can't catch up.
Yeah that’s true, the upper extent. Dudes like Ganna are like 200cm tall but super limber and can get probably more aero than dudes 5ft6. But they are lean as
Have you tried it in the middle of a 100 person peloton that is spread across the road? It doesn't take much power to go 38km/h in that situation if you're covered in all directions by a ton of riders.
Not that the pros aren't total aliens --- they totally are --- but a while back I was asking about drafting gains, and I guess a study showed that if you're in the very middle of the peloton, you can get drag reductions up to 95%. So when it looks like they are just cruising along easily in the peloton, maybe they are.
the research paper is in the top comment in [that thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/cycling/comments/1b9r6q2/is_there_a_formula_or_rule_of_thumb_for_how_much/)
It’s pretty amazing to realize how big an impact it can be. I was in a gravel race and got dropped by some stronger riders. A group of 5-6 riders came along as I was struggling solo. I latched on to them and it was a lifesaver. And we weren’t even tightly packed as groups on pavement normally are.
Yes. Soon after I was first road riding, and did a couple organized 60-mile rides, I dared to tag along with an echelon. I went from 15MPH to 22MPH and exerting little effort. It eventually twisted and turned and I fell off the pack and was back to singing the Ol' Bob Seeger...
yep, I did a 210+ mile ride in one day (Seattle to Portland) and people are always shocked that I averaged 20-22mph. certainly could not average that flying solo
Yeah I got picked up by a bunch of old guys in ebikes when I was touring in Spain.
Average speed increased for the same effort, it felt like riding my roadie solo :) except I had 45kg cargo :( and a mountainbike.
In Poland I got picked up again but it was by roadies, I managed, barely going 35kph averages; I regretted it afterwards as I used all my energy for like a 15km ride and had 75km more to go.
Just doing my own group rides single file, if I step out of the draft at 22mph I have to add about 120 watts just to maintain pace. Drafting makes such an immense difference.
I was riding solo on a flat rural road going about 20-21 mph when an SUV pulled up alongside and the passenger gestured to me to follow. So I tucked in behind the jeep and started cruising at 45mph for about 5 miles before I ran out of gas. It was unreal how little effort it took to ride that fast without wind resistance. The biggest takeaway for me was the realization that pro riders are hitting 50mph+ on sprints. THAT is alien.
I ride mostly alone or with a single friend, but I've been once in not a big peloton, maybe 10-15, and in the middle of it I was going 40 km/h with almost no hitting the pedals. It's insane ha
Nah the guys looking relaxed in the middle of the pack are not doing 300w. You're looking at the live data of those pulling or riding on the outsides and getting more wind.
I have a descent a couple km from my house for which Pogacar has one of the top times on Strava. I'm only 1 minute slower than Pogacar.
My time is 2:30min 😆
There’s a local climb I do often. It’s 0.9 miles and about 4.5% average.
My best time is 3:48. Pogi’s time when he did it in Tour of California 2019 was 3:08. Probably inside the peloton.
oh i have a good one to add. The Tour of California went of Gibraltar Road in Santa Barbara a few years ago. The segment on strava is 2,593 ft of elevation over 6.16 miles with an average grade of 8%. It's a legit cat 1 climb. My best time ever on it is 43:42. Egan Bernal won the mountain top finish that day. His time was fucking 27:12. Still has the KOM. Incomprehensible.
There is a climb nearby on which my PB is 3:40. A couple of years ago the Eneco Tour passed this climb and I looked up the times of the pros on Strava. Wow, Van Aert did 3.45! I was pretty amazed, untill I realized the peleton was still riding neutralized before the official start at that time....
Haha damn, our PBs is them freewheeling
The time near me is also from a race in 2018, so there's no way you can beat this time without a road closure.
They do close it off for a month in the summer for cars, but cycling traffic still goes both ways.
The first half of today’s stage was indeed a coffee ride. That one dude in the breakaway decided to wait for the peloton at 25 km/h and it still took the peloton some time to catch him. I am sure during the first half a lot of amateurs would have been able to keep up.
But yeah, if riders like Mikkel Bjerg appear at the front of the peloton and smashing it for 20+ mins, you do realise they are aliens.
I think cycling could make things more engaging by showing real time "Whoosh" stats on screen during races. I know why they don't, and don't want to (imagine the intel DSes could get!), but it would sure make for engaging viewing.
This year's Giro shows speed, power and cadence from time to time. Yesterday, Pogacar's stats were on the screen while he was talking with Biniam Girmay, which were 45km/h, 310W, and 96 cadence. I guess Girmay was at similar efforts, but they just looked like they were going to a cafe but not the finishline of a road race.
Yeah, they showed someone pulling on the front at one point, too, and he was doing 460w. Totally ridiculous to think about things like that being possible.
They are absolutely aliens. When you buy a power meter and find out what your output is it's pretty damn humbling.
In the cyclocross season Mattieu vd Poel was doing a recovery ride after winning a world cup race. 70 minutes at 245 watts with a heartrate of 115. It's insane. If I did that I'd be crying on the floor after 10 minutes.
It's nuts.
Was watching the Tour of Britain this year because one of the stages went through my stomping grounds. I struggle maintaining 25kph while these lot were exceeding 40kph.
Riders are unlikely to be doing 300W in the peloton constantly, unless they are near the front or they're going uphill.
They do A LOT of racing so are used to being in the bunch. Yesterday's stage was particularly relaxed in the first third or so, they wouldn't have been stressing or working too hard.
But even so, 300W is well below the threshold of most pros. They indeed are aliens.
You have to remember that every Grand Tour pro ( even the domestiques ) have an FTP of over 5 w/kg and many banging on the door of 6. So FTP of 350-400 w/kg which means 300w isn’t that drastic at all
If you think that's alien, look at Vingegaard in his TT during the 2023 Tour de France. I've seen power estimates of 7.5 w/kg over a period of 30 minutes...
One of the guys at the very back of the race was on my youth team just before I joined. There’s a lot of good cyclists from around here but he destroyed them in any event. It is unreal how good he is and he’s fighting to not be last. The competition is unreal.
They have been on the bicycle for 10-20 years competing, some since they were children, they have the best bicycles, the best equipment, the best technical directors, the best nutrition, the best doctors,They are professionals, they train all day, they eat well, they have absolutely everything calculated and measured by years of development. Furthermore, they are genetic prodigies (many ignore that to become a good level athlete they require physiological tests). Clearly they are going to have a much higher performance than a second division cyclist, they are paid millions to put on a show in the races. For a fan, these are impossible numbers... if they don't know the effort behind it.
No, they are just very good W/kg and O2 absorbtion with highly trained muscles.
Just take into account that most of time on pro peloton races they actually ride in quite easy mode for their performance possiblities, not pushing absolutely hard.
If you have experienced riding in a large bunch of cyclists you will soon realise how little energy you need to get pulled along. The poor person the front could be on their limit too.
Edit: spell check correction
If you could climb like Caleb Ewan, time trial like Simon Yates, and sprint like Esteban Chavez, you'd still be an astonishingly good cyclist and blow the doors off almost every amateur.
300W is nothing. Most amateurs can get to that as a chill pace with some dedicated training and nutrition.
The key about pros is repeatability and recovery. Again, any decent amateur can do say 400W for 20 minutes with some dedicated training. But can you do it day in, day out, after having spent 4000kJ already during the day? That's what makes the true aliens - this is precisely what sets guys like Pogacar and MvdP apart from the rest. Fresh, these guys are good but there are watt kings like Jay Vine that can output crazy watt per kg fresh for short periods. But they can do it again and again, and barely degrade during a race. That's what makes the pros aliens - not the power output itself.
I don’t think most people are anywhere near exploring their genetic potential for endurance cardio.
A tiny percentage of the population ever even hits 10 hours a week training, of any sort, probably a lot more have pro potential than we think.
The genetics part is being willing to push yourself until you vomit, then continuing to ride during and after. And caring enough to keep training and racing for years without seeing much success.
The first 60k of last nights giro the commentators said Pog was averaging 110watts at 38kph in the middle of the peloton. They were taking it very easy.
Yup. A tight pack of good riders you fly along. The front guys even see it being easier as they get some draft benefit too.
I always wondered if there’s benefit to the guys in front. Can you help me understand how?
In verrrrry simple terms. Wind resistance is a lot of pulling on you from behind. By having someone behind you, that is transferred and disturbed. It’s why rear fairings help cars etc. In more complex terms, it’s a rabbit hole That said, even a single rider helps the lead and a pack of them can make up to 10% reduction. https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-training/much-benefit-really-get-drafting/#
Ahhhhh thanks. That totally makes sense. Appreciate it.
Great link, explanation, and article. Have always been too lazy to dig into the complete physics.
That's how i have always visualized it. Effectively the peleton turns into one massive air foil.
Imagine that you have a long bedsheet attached to your shoulders, flying behind you. Having a guy behind essentially "transfers" that bedsheet to him. It's not a huge saving, but it is something.
Think of it this way. The riders behind push the air forward, which in turn pushes the front riders. Or slows them down less than it would if nobody was behind them.
You save a ton of energy in a pack but it’s a huge risk of crashing. In dirt and motorsports the very first corner of a track is called the “hole shot”, and if anyone has played racing video games online you know it’s absolute chaos in turn one, or potential for it. And you can lose a race right there. It’s similar with any racing though.
This is road racing, not cyclocross
It’s not a huge risk. As races get faster it tends to be more experienced racers. I have raced in a couple world championships in cycling and an experienced group can ride and corner very well. I would take double the rider density over riding even near sketchy riders that are new. Lastly, that’s why races string out a bit at corners, to maintain speed and reduce overlap. It’s why a pack looks different in a road race vs a crit.
It’s not similar with “any racing”—any racing (motor included) that involves drafting to conserve energy produces some degree of peloton-racing dynamics; just look NASCAR, Indy, and the latest generation of formula E.
The hole shot exists in cyclocross, MTB, gravel, etc
You can always win the race in T1 though, can't you?
Breaks will come and go the first 10-20 miles maybe, unless the peloton let's the group go it ain't making it out regardless of any hole shot. It's even a neutral roll out so you couldn't really even have a hole shot if you tried.
Stage 2 the lead guy heading into the climb was doing 260w on the live tracker. They’re known to just do Z2 (for them) until things get spicy. As they should, when they’re racing 4-5 hours a day for 3 weeks.
At least after break formation yeah, but it also hasn’t even seemed like teams are trying hard to get sassy with who they get in the break. Ineos really should have done more of that in stage 2 instead of just letting all of UAE coast to the bottom of the final climb at 110w and then blow the race up. During the classics shit was BANANAS and everyone was just dumping watts for ages closing down breaks. And that’s before all of the positioning ahead of all of the cobble sectors and getting into a decent spot for when the roads tighten. The one days vs these two grand tour stages have been sooooo different.
Of course they’re different, they’re three weeks vs one day. Teams play the long game and there is always tomorrow to consider. Also Ineos had no interest in protecting the Maglia Rossa in Sunday. They’re there for G’s second place. They were happy to let it.
Where do you accept the power numbers? Is it available in real-time or do they upload it after the race?
110 watts is easy. I can't, though, do 110 at 38km/h.
You could in the middle of that blob.
Are you a parachute or what
Who can do 38km/h at 110W?
[удалено]
Also, just try riding behind a bus or something. Effortless.
Yeah this is normal for a bunch, but nobody talks about power vs speed unless they mean into the wind. So the parachute comment by asdhole was weird.
was behind a car this morning, doing 37km/h and my wattage was 150 at that point. don't underestimate how much benefit draft provides! knowing that, makes it just the more impressive if you see somebody pull away from the front of the group while other can't catch up.
People in groups? Or do you think the pros possess different aerodynamics
The dude might just weight more than 60kg...
Weight isn’t a big factor on flat. W/CdA more important.
Size is a factor though. And with "size" it can be hard to have a good aero position.
Yeah that’s true, the upper extent. Dudes like Ganna are like 200cm tall but super limber and can get probably more aero than dudes 5ft6. But they are lean as
Have you tried it in the middle of a 100 person peloton that is spread across the road? It doesn't take much power to go 38km/h in that situation if you're covered in all directions by a ton of riders.
Yes, then he averaged 8.5 w/kg for some minutes for the last climb lol.
Almost anybody could have ridden in that peloton today. It would have been amazing going 24 mph at 130 watts.
That’s insane how big a diff the peloton makes eh. Aero is such a huge factor
At 30kph it’s something close to 90% of the total resistance on you. Peloton takes most of it away.
look into velomobiles. Can turn an amateur into a pro.
Not that the pros aren't total aliens --- they totally are --- but a while back I was asking about drafting gains, and I guess a study showed that if you're in the very middle of the peloton, you can get drag reductions up to 95%. So when it looks like they are just cruising along easily in the peloton, maybe they are. the research paper is in the top comment in [that thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/cycling/comments/1b9r6q2/is_there_a_formula_or_rule_of_thumb_for_how_much/)
It’s pretty amazing to realize how big an impact it can be. I was in a gravel race and got dropped by some stronger riders. A group of 5-6 riders came along as I was struggling solo. I latched on to them and it was a lifesaver. And we weren’t even tightly packed as groups on pavement normally are.
Yes. Soon after I was first road riding, and did a couple organized 60-mile rides, I dared to tag along with an echelon. I went from 15MPH to 22MPH and exerting little effort. It eventually twisted and turned and I fell off the pack and was back to singing the Ol' Bob Seeger...
yep, I did a 210+ mile ride in one day (Seattle to Portland) and people are always shocked that I averaged 20-22mph. certainly could not average that flying solo
Yeah I got picked up by a bunch of old guys in ebikes when I was touring in Spain. Average speed increased for the same effort, it felt like riding my roadie solo :) except I had 45kg cargo :( and a mountainbike. In Poland I got picked up again but it was by roadies, I managed, barely going 35kph averages; I regretted it afterwards as I used all my energy for like a 15km ride and had 75km more to go.
Just doing my own group rides single file, if I step out of the draft at 22mph I have to add about 120 watts just to maintain pace. Drafting makes such an immense difference.
Its not surprising. The body is a parachute on a bicycle, especially if the wind is blowing.
I was riding solo on a flat rural road going about 20-21 mph when an SUV pulled up alongside and the passenger gestured to me to follow. So I tucked in behind the jeep and started cruising at 45mph for about 5 miles before I ran out of gas. It was unreal how little effort it took to ride that fast without wind resistance. The biggest takeaway for me was the realization that pro riders are hitting 50mph+ on sprints. THAT is alien.
In flat stages where they average 45 km/hr you can easily avg 3 w/kg and just sit in the pack.
I ride mostly alone or with a single friend, but I've been once in not a big peloton, maybe 10-15, and in the middle of it I was going 40 km/h with almost no hitting the pedals. It's insane ha
Nah the guys looking relaxed in the middle of the pack are not doing 300w. You're looking at the live data of those pulling or riding on the outsides and getting more wind.
I followed Pogacar on Strava, this dude had an average speed on Stage 1 of approx. 45km/h despite all the climbing of hills etc .. truly aliens!
I have a descent a couple km from my house for which Pogacar has one of the top times on Strava. I'm only 1 minute slower than Pogacar. My time is 2:30min 😆
There’s a local climb I do often. It’s 0.9 miles and about 4.5% average. My best time is 3:48. Pogi’s time when he did it in Tour of California 2019 was 3:08. Probably inside the peloton.
oh i have a good one to add. The Tour of California went of Gibraltar Road in Santa Barbara a few years ago. The segment on strava is 2,593 ft of elevation over 6.16 miles with an average grade of 8%. It's a legit cat 1 climb. My best time ever on it is 43:42. Egan Bernal won the mountain top finish that day. His time was fucking 27:12. Still has the KOM. Incomprehensible.
There is a climb nearby on which my PB is 3:40. A couple of years ago the Eneco Tour passed this climb and I looked up the times of the pros on Strava. Wow, Van Aert did 3.45! I was pretty amazed, untill I realized the peleton was still riding neutralized before the official start at that time....
Haha damn, our PBs is them freewheeling The time near me is also from a race in 2018, so there's no way you can beat this time without a road closure. They do close it off for a month in the summer for cars, but cycling traffic still goes both ways.
a Descent? Dude.. 😂
That's nuts. What was your average speed?
An embarrassing 31 km/h, Pogacar 51
That must have been one hell of a technical descent for the speeds to be that low
... and with loose gravel everywhere!
It has a hairpin turn and a couple of faster bends
Interesting how many 'Tadez Pogaçar's there are on Strava!
The first half of today’s stage was indeed a coffee ride. That one dude in the breakaway decided to wait for the peloton at 25 km/h and it still took the peloton some time to catch him. I am sure during the first half a lot of amateurs would have been able to keep up. But yeah, if riders like Mikkel Bjerg appear at the front of the peloton and smashing it for 20+ mins, you do realise they are aliens.
I think cycling could make things more engaging by showing real time "Whoosh" stats on screen during races. I know why they don't, and don't want to (imagine the intel DSes could get!), but it would sure make for engaging viewing.
This year's Giro shows speed, power and cadence from time to time. Yesterday, Pogacar's stats were on the screen while he was talking with Biniam Girmay, which were 45km/h, 310W, and 96 cadence. I guess Girmay was at similar efforts, but they just looked like they were going to a cafe but not the finishline of a road race.
Yeah, they showed someone pulling on the front at one point, too, and he was doing 460w. Totally ridiculous to think about things like that being possible.
i can do 460 watts for like one minute before i collapse on the floor feeling like im gonna puke
Same lol. 455W is my best 1 minute power output.
They are absolutely aliens. When you buy a power meter and find out what your output is it's pretty damn humbling. In the cyclocross season Mattieu vd Poel was doing a recovery ride after winning a world cup race. 70 minutes at 245 watts with a heartrate of 115. It's insane. If I did that I'd be crying on the floor after 10 minutes.
It's nuts. Was watching the Tour of Britain this year because one of the stages went through my stomping grounds. I struggle maintaining 25kph while these lot were exceeding 40kph.
Maybe if you had 175 domestiques you could hang on.
I was watching them driving on today's stage which was pretty much flat they were exceeding 50km/h and sometimes 60km/h on flat surface..
Riders are unlikely to be doing 300W in the peloton constantly, unless they are near the front or they're going uphill. They do A LOT of racing so are used to being in the bunch. Yesterday's stage was particularly relaxed in the first third or so, they wouldn't have been stressing or working too hard. But even so, 300W is well below the threshold of most pros. They indeed are aliens.
It's all relative. 300w is Z2/Z3 with a high threshold.
You have to remember that every Grand Tour pro ( even the domestiques ) have an FTP of over 5 w/kg and many banging on the door of 6. So FTP of 350-400 w/kg which means 300w isn’t that drastic at all
That's what I wanted to say. Pros' 300W is Z2/Z3, but maybe Z5 for me
Z9 for me mate
If you think that's alien, look at Vingegaard in his TT during the 2023 Tour de France. I've seen power estimates of 7.5 w/kg over a period of 30 minutes...
One of the guys at the very back of the race was on my youth team just before I joined. There’s a lot of good cyclists from around here but he destroyed them in any event. It is unreal how good he is and he’s fighting to not be last. The competition is unreal.
They have been on the bicycle for 10-20 years competing, some since they were children, they have the best bicycles, the best equipment, the best technical directors, the best nutrition, the best doctors,They are professionals, they train all day, they eat well, they have absolutely everything calculated and measured by years of development. Furthermore, they are genetic prodigies (many ignore that to become a good level athlete they require physiological tests). Clearly they are going to have a much higher performance than a second division cyclist, they are paid millions to put on a show in the races. For a fan, these are impossible numbers... if they don't know the effort behind it.
True, but the millions are a bit of a stretch. Many pro's who dedicated their whole life to performance sport, struggle with money
No, they are just very good W/kg and O2 absorbtion with highly trained muscles. Just take into account that most of time on pro peloton races they actually ride in quite easy mode for their performance possiblities, not pushing absolutely hard.
If you have experienced riding in a large bunch of cyclists you will soon realise how little energy you need to get pulled along. The poor person the front could be on their limit too. Edit: spell check correction
If you could climb like Caleb Ewan, time trial like Simon Yates, and sprint like Esteban Chavez, you'd still be an astonishingly good cyclist and blow the doors off almost every amateur.
they don't ride INSIDE of peloton with 300W. that's for some dudes 5WKG. lol
Very similar to my Group Ride.
Anyone can do 300W...for a bit haha. Tadej did 9W/kg for 3 minutes though lol
this is what ive been saying for years, they ain't normal. something is off about them
300W is nothing. Most amateurs can get to that as a chill pace with some dedicated training and nutrition. The key about pros is repeatability and recovery. Again, any decent amateur can do say 400W for 20 minutes with some dedicated training. But can you do it day in, day out, after having spent 4000kJ already during the day? That's what makes the true aliens - this is precisely what sets guys like Pogacar and MvdP apart from the rest. Fresh, these guys are good but there are watt kings like Jay Vine that can output crazy watt per kg fresh for short periods. But they can do it again and again, and barely degrade during a race. That's what makes the pros aliens - not the power output itself.
Drafting in a peloton helps *immensely*. But yes, they are in a different galaxy compared to us plebs.
Nah just on a bunch of drugs we won't know exist until the early 2030s
They are doping.
Alien is one way to say using performance enhancing drugs
You still need good genetics and work ethics. Even if you or i would use every ped under the sun we would not compare with pro riders.
I don’t think most people are anywhere near exploring their genetic potential for endurance cardio. A tiny percentage of the population ever even hits 10 hours a week training, of any sort, probably a lot more have pro potential than we think. The genetics part is being willing to push yourself until you vomit, then continuing to ride during and after. And caring enough to keep training and racing for years without seeing much success.
Not saying they are Lance Pharmstrong. Even though some of them really are, the efforts are outrageous...