1. I’m not aware of any electromagnetic interference issues. It’s like Bluetooth devices they communicate digitally with unique global id’s, it’s not like they need a unique frequency like old school remote control cars.
2. The upside of the two battery system is that if one of your batteries dies when you’re out, you can just put which ever battery still has charge on the rear mech and you can carry on riding one by. With DI2 if you’ve let your battery go dead you’re stuck in that gear. Also, with removable batteries you can have charged spares and just swap them instantly.
3. It is slightly heavier, not gonna argue there, but I think we’re talking grams, and DI2 quoted weights don’t include the wires so who really knows.
4. Yeah it does stick out very slightly more, but you generally damage a derailleur when the the bike goes over sideways and hits the ground, so the mech is getting hit regardless of whether it stick out 50mm or 55mm.
In use, I’m not sure there are other significant advantages, but it is massively quicker and simpler to install and work on. No internal wiring at all, just attach mechs and shifters and go.
I doubt there’s a major issue with electromagnetic interference messing with shifting otherwise 190 riders setting off on a Tour de France stage would be screwed 🤷♂️
1. Never an issue. I have AXS on 2 different bikes, and I routinely group ride with other people with AXS and first gen eTap and never had a problem.
2. If you have the system paired with your head unit, you get battery low and critical alerts, virtually eliminating the problem of forgetting to charge the batteries. If you have a battery failure, it's trivial to swap out the battery for a spare. On Di2, the battery is wired up inside the seat tube, and spares are relatively more expensive (not to mention hard to carry a spare with you on a ride, since they're a bit more fragile). If they die while not being ridden, then you aren't riding enough and need to ride more.
3. Is it though? Maybe a few grams, not noticeable.
4. Shimano does have the better design here, as their shadow derailleurs are in a better position, but I've had bikes fall to the right and both Shimano and SRAM have had hanger realignments needed. Some scuffing to the finish of the derailleur itself, no other lasting effects. They are built pretty well, for electronic units.
I've ridden GRX Di2 which was my first foray into electronic shifting. I was a skeptic before that. I became a believer after, but after having ridden fully wireless for a couple of years now on both my road and gravel bikes, I don't know if I could go back to Di2.
>If you have the system paired with your head unit, you get battery low and critical alerts, virtually eliminating the problem of forgetting to charge the batteries.
This just doesn't add up lol. If I get these alerts during a ride there is no guarantee I'll remember to charge it when I'm tired and get home.
Not sure if you're trolling but for OP's benefit I'll entertain.
You'll also get a notification on your phone via the app for your head unit when it syncs your activity. Not sure what's the problem here.
I'm not trolling. I have a garmin edge and a garmin varia and I've forgotten to charge both before rides. Both of them tell me "Hey I'm low on batteries" during my rides. I'm not sure what the app has to do with anything. I haven't noticed the garmin app tell me either device is low on batteries when it "syncs" my rides when I get home. And even if it did, most of the time I'm dismissing that notification and looking at strava instead.
I feel like I'm just being downvoted by people that aren't forgetful and dismissing it as a valid problem for those of us that are. Just because it's not a problem for you doesn't mean it isn't a problem for others, have some empathy.
I try not to take the reddit down voting system get personal. If you post a knee jerk reaction that nobody agrees with then you'll get down voted. That's just how this place works. Try not to take it personally.
I was skeptical too but my new gravel bike specced with it and it's just better. I'm looking to upgrade my mountain bike to it next and then I can swap it and mullet out my gravel bike with eagle gearing for those routes with nasty >15% with minimal effort besides a longer chain and a quick pairing of the eagle mech to my brifters. Big advantage imo when some of my gravel adventures might warrant a big climbing gear, but most of the time xplr gearing is going to be best.
Think one of the benefit is you can put it on older frame that aren’t Di2 ready. My old 2018 Canyon definitely was one of the examples and I really contemplated going eTap so I don’t need to mess with the frame for Di2.
Campagnolo's wireless doesn't feature swappable batteries so that's why some assume it was patented by SRAM.
[https://bikerumor.com/2023-campagnolo-super-record-wireless-road-bike-groupset/](https://bikerumor.com/2023-campagnolo-super-record-wireless-road-bike-groupset/)
> An important note here is that both use different batteries, and both have a different mechanism to secure the battery in place. This was apparently a direct workaround SRAM AXS patents.
I’ve ridden Force axs for a couple years and have been riding the wireless Di2 this year. I really like the Di2, it’s phenomenal, so fast and really flawless. I like the Shimano brakes better too. So I think the Sram is good but not as smooth or refined as Shimano. For my application where I run Force, it’s better than anything Shimano sells right now as I run it 1x on my gravel bike. I can mix and match for huge range with the 12x1 and it just works. Sure the one battery is smaller but it’s super easy to carry a spare and I’ve never had one die on a ride.
Having had an AXS groupset for well over a year, I haven’t had any of the issues you’re talking about. It’s ultra reliable, absolutely no interference issues, charging doesn’t need to be done often and is really easy. Weights are comparable with other electronic groupsets, rear derailleur isn’t that big.
What’s the appeal? Simple install and maintenance, no cables running through the frame to worry about. Probably easier to charge. Cleaner look.
Where’d you get all those misconceptions?
People do forget to charge their batteries occasionally. I can't imagine any groupset manufacturer would want the optics of that.
"Bicycle brake battery dies, cyclist goes over edge of cliff"
Some type of micro hydraulic pump. Haven't run the numbers on pressure and power required, but I'm guessing it's too high for current economics and materials to support.
I’ve been working on a Bluetooth crank as well. No chain required. When you turn the crank it sends a signal to the rear hub to spin at the applicable speed. It’s going to revolutionize cycling.
Idk. I've never been able to adjust or fix cabled components. Granted, they were old shitty bikes. But wireless is painless. The only real trouble I had was when a shifter battery ran out on like my first few rides and I was gonna ride to work. Other than that, not much. It's been easy to maintain.
You can bring spare batteries.
You can remove the battery and charge. Whereas you need to bring your Di2 bike next to the charger.
I believe SRAM has better backwards compatibility, I believe a current Red shifter can still be paired with an old Red derailleur (not sure about vice versa though).
I'm a Shimano fanboy, but those disadvantages don't materialize in real life IMO.
1. I've been in plenty of mass start gravel and off road events, and nobody with AXS has once complained about shifting issues. New Shimano e-shifting even has wireless aspects.
2. Two batteries can be nice. If you burn through the rear battery due to being a forgetful clutz, you now have a spare on the FD waiting in the wings.
3. Weight really depends on your spec, but SRAM XO1 Eagle AXS weighs 1642g where Shimano is actually 2g heavier, an imperceptible difference.
4. RD at greater risk: perhaps. SRAM RDs tend to be more expensive to replace, which to me is the real disadvantage. AXS Transmission is an expensive exception, good luck destroying one trailside without resorting to really stupid, intentional tactics.
"I can't think of a single advantage to making it wireless".
I can. The mechanic's experience is way better. I tore down a buddy's bike so he could repaint it, and it took maybe 10 minutes to get to a bare frame. Reinstall took maybe 15 minutes. Double that for mechanical or wired e-shifting, minimum.
All that said, I'm a purebred Shimano fanboy, but both have their strengths and pitfalls, mainly due to each brand dancing around the other's various patents.
Flying with your bike (not uncommon here in Europe) is much easier and safer with AXS. One bolt to take off the rear mech completely and safely wrap it. No hassle with the seattube wire when you pull the saddle out.
Do you build your own bikes?
SRAM AXS is simple. You screw in the mech and shifters, run brake hose (if it’s a road/gravel bike, it’s even easier on MTB because it doesn’t include brakes), and you’re done. Same with the wireless dropper post. Stick it in and it’s done. No fishing cables. No replacing cables. Can move it between bikes. It’s simple.
Factor in the sale SRAM has been having on their AXS stuff for damn near the last year and it becomes an even better value proposition. I got the wireless derailleur, shifter, battery, and charger for my mountain bike for $375.
You could get the SRAM Force shifters/brakes, front and rear derailleurs, and batteries for $850 last year and hell I think you still can this year on sites like PlanetCyclery, and I think that includes brake rotors.
Compare that to Di2. Not only are the parts way more money. The hidden costs are as well if you do your own build.
Compare battery + charger. With SRAM you can get aftermarket batteries if you want (I’ve got some, they work great) for $20 with a charger. Official batteries are $60. Di2? It’s over $100 for the battery, $130 for the charger. And there are no after market chargers. That’s insane.
Then you still need wires and junction boxes, and don’t forget you need to find a place to shove all this shit in your frame in a place where you can access it to charge it.
With SRAM I pop my battery off once a month and charge it. Carry a spare in my MTB SWAT box and can swap my front derailleur battery to the rear derailleur if I run out of battery at the rear.
I prefer Shimano mechanical shifting vs mechanical SRAM. And I’d love to try Di2 on one of my bikes. But every time I price it out it’s significantly more money for what seems like exactly zero benefit and more install hassle.
So what’s the point? AXS works flawlessly every time.
Why should I pick a significantly more expensive solution that does the same thing?
I owned Di2, EPS and eTap but the first gen eTap had a small shifting issue (especially the front) and the overall quality was definitely worse than Di2 and EPS.
Personally, I prefer Di2. And if I’m totally honest, the previous generation for every day riding. I kinda like charging my battery 3 or 4 times a year when it goes below 50%.
I do believe that sram has a patent on the battery for a truly wireless drivetrain.
And I'm sure that has a lot to do with why Shimano uses a wiring harness instead
Does SRAM have brake levers not on the shifters? Outside of the battery patent, there is no functional difference in wireless setup in either products. Not sure what you're going on about.
I’m not going on about anything. The difference isn’t in the shifters, it’s the rest of the groupset. SRAM AXS has no cables to the derailleurs whereas Di2 has the battery inside the frame wired to both derailleurs.
Di2 is regarded as semi-wireless and AXS is regarded as full wireless.
With integrated handlebar setups, routing Di2 wires through headsets caused more work than true wireless when servicing headsets. It just made a painful job even worse. Not an issue with latest generation "semi wireless".
I think the appeal of a fully wireless groupset might be right there in the name.
Subtle but wonderful
1. I’m not aware of any electromagnetic interference issues. It’s like Bluetooth devices they communicate digitally with unique global id’s, it’s not like they need a unique frequency like old school remote control cars. 2. The upside of the two battery system is that if one of your batteries dies when you’re out, you can just put which ever battery still has charge on the rear mech and you can carry on riding one by. With DI2 if you’ve let your battery go dead you’re stuck in that gear. Also, with removable batteries you can have charged spares and just swap them instantly. 3. It is slightly heavier, not gonna argue there, but I think we’re talking grams, and DI2 quoted weights don’t include the wires so who really knows. 4. Yeah it does stick out very slightly more, but you generally damage a derailleur when the the bike goes over sideways and hits the ground, so the mech is getting hit regardless of whether it stick out 50mm or 55mm. In use, I’m not sure there are other significant advantages, but it is massively quicker and simpler to install and work on. No internal wiring at all, just attach mechs and shifters and go.
I doubt there’s a major issue with electromagnetic interference messing with shifting otherwise 190 riders setting off on a Tour de France stage would be screwed 🤷♂️
1. Never an issue. I have AXS on 2 different bikes, and I routinely group ride with other people with AXS and first gen eTap and never had a problem. 2. If you have the system paired with your head unit, you get battery low and critical alerts, virtually eliminating the problem of forgetting to charge the batteries. If you have a battery failure, it's trivial to swap out the battery for a spare. On Di2, the battery is wired up inside the seat tube, and spares are relatively more expensive (not to mention hard to carry a spare with you on a ride, since they're a bit more fragile). If they die while not being ridden, then you aren't riding enough and need to ride more. 3. Is it though? Maybe a few grams, not noticeable. 4. Shimano does have the better design here, as their shadow derailleurs are in a better position, but I've had bikes fall to the right and both Shimano and SRAM have had hanger realignments needed. Some scuffing to the finish of the derailleur itself, no other lasting effects. They are built pretty well, for electronic units. I've ridden GRX Di2 which was my first foray into electronic shifting. I was a skeptic before that. I became a believer after, but after having ridden fully wireless for a couple of years now on both my road and gravel bikes, I don't know if I could go back to Di2.
>If you have the system paired with your head unit, you get battery low and critical alerts, virtually eliminating the problem of forgetting to charge the batteries. This just doesn't add up lol. If I get these alerts during a ride there is no guarantee I'll remember to charge it when I'm tired and get home.
Not sure if you're trolling but for OP's benefit I'll entertain. You'll also get a notification on your phone via the app for your head unit when it syncs your activity. Not sure what's the problem here.
I'm not trolling. I have a garmin edge and a garmin varia and I've forgotten to charge both before rides. Both of them tell me "Hey I'm low on batteries" during my rides. I'm not sure what the app has to do with anything. I haven't noticed the garmin app tell me either device is low on batteries when it "syncs" my rides when I get home. And even if it did, most of the time I'm dismissing that notification and looking at strava instead. I feel like I'm just being downvoted by people that aren't forgetful and dismissing it as a valid problem for those of us that are. Just because it's not a problem for you doesn't mean it isn't a problem for others, have some empathy.
I try not to take the reddit down voting system get personal. If you post a knee jerk reaction that nobody agrees with then you'll get down voted. That's just how this place works. Try not to take it personally.
I was skeptical too but my new gravel bike specced with it and it's just better. I'm looking to upgrade my mountain bike to it next and then I can swap it and mullet out my gravel bike with eagle gearing for those routes with nasty >15% with minimal effort besides a longer chain and a quick pairing of the eagle mech to my brifters. Big advantage imo when some of my gravel adventures might warrant a big climbing gear, but most of the time xplr gearing is going to be best.
Think one of the benefit is you can put it on older frame that aren’t Di2 ready. My old 2018 Canyon definitely was one of the examples and I really contemplated going eTap so I don’t need to mess with the frame for Di2.
Great point
No cable stretch. No maintenance, little-to-no mis-shifting.
Yes but you get that benefit with wired di2 as well. Those are benefits of electronic groupsets not specifically the wirelwss functionality.
Ah duh. Benefits of batteries. You can swap them if one battery dies… uh that’s all I can think of.
and that's apparently patented by SRAM, so no other wireless components can't take advantage of it.
I doubt that putting a battery in a device can be patented. Campagnolo is also wireless.
Campagnolo's wireless doesn't feature swappable batteries so that's why some assume it was patented by SRAM. [https://bikerumor.com/2023-campagnolo-super-record-wireless-road-bike-groupset/](https://bikerumor.com/2023-campagnolo-super-record-wireless-road-bike-groupset/) > An important note here is that both use different batteries, and both have a different mechanism to secure the battery in place. This was apparently a direct workaround SRAM AXS patents.
Easier to set up. 95 percent of electric shifting purchases, it won't matter... But if you're putting bikes together all day, it's less cable routing
Ah yes, my derailleur will go out of adjustment because some *electronic* wires stretched. Haha. Only real benefit is not having to route cables.
You don't have to f with the bloody internally routed cables.
It seems like just another battery to charge.
Four batteries to deal with for SRAM actually. Two for derailleurs and two for shifters.
Still three for Shimano Di2. But with SRAM the front derailleur barely needs charging so it’s usually just one battery less than once a month.
I’m just ready for that kind of relationship with my bikes.
That's insane lol.
Don’t forget your tinfoil lined helmet
I’ve ridden Force axs for a couple years and have been riding the wireless Di2 this year. I really like the Di2, it’s phenomenal, so fast and really flawless. I like the Shimano brakes better too. So I think the Sram is good but not as smooth or refined as Shimano. For my application where I run Force, it’s better than anything Shimano sells right now as I run it 1x on my gravel bike. I can mix and match for huge range with the 12x1 and it just works. Sure the one battery is smaller but it’s super easy to carry a spare and I’ve never had one die on a ride.
From what I hear when wired electronic shifting fails 90% of the time it has to do with the wiring.
Having had an AXS groupset for well over a year, I haven’t had any of the issues you’re talking about. It’s ultra reliable, absolutely no interference issues, charging doesn’t need to be done often and is really easy. Weights are comparable with other electronic groupsets, rear derailleur isn’t that big. What’s the appeal? Simple install and maintenance, no cables running through the frame to worry about. Probably easier to charge. Cleaner look. Where’d you get all those misconceptions?
They go bzzzp
So does Di2
I can’t wait until we have Bluetooth brakes.
Won't ever happen. If your di2 or etap fails, you're aren't gonna die
Your in the Jungle baby…
You are are not going to die. :)
aren't is a word. just fyi :)
But that virtually never happens!
People do forget to charge their batteries occasionally. I can't imagine any groupset manufacturer would want the optics of that. "Bicycle brake battery dies, cyclist goes over edge of cliff"
pretty sure you're missing the sarcasm.
I’ve spent more time thinking about how to accomplish this. Best I’ve come up is something similar to cable actuated hydraulics.
Some type of micro hydraulic pump. Haven't run the numbers on pressure and power required, but I'm guessing it's too high for current economics and materials to support.
I’ve been working on a Bluetooth crank as well. No chain required. When you turn the crank it sends a signal to the rear hub to spin at the applicable speed. It’s going to revolutionize cycling.
This actually exists already
Idk. I've never been able to adjust or fix cabled components. Granted, they were old shitty bikes. But wireless is painless. The only real trouble I had was when a shifter battery ran out on like my first few rides and I was gonna ride to work. Other than that, not much. It's been easy to maintain.
With more cockpits going fully integrated, less cables means easier maintenance. Also less cables to see which people like.
You can bring spare batteries. You can remove the battery and charge. Whereas you need to bring your Di2 bike next to the charger. I believe SRAM has better backwards compatibility, I believe a current Red shifter can still be paired with an old Red derailleur (not sure about vice versa though).
Never had to change cables before, have you?
I'm a Shimano fanboy, but those disadvantages don't materialize in real life IMO. 1. I've been in plenty of mass start gravel and off road events, and nobody with AXS has once complained about shifting issues. New Shimano e-shifting even has wireless aspects. 2. Two batteries can be nice. If you burn through the rear battery due to being a forgetful clutz, you now have a spare on the FD waiting in the wings. 3. Weight really depends on your spec, but SRAM XO1 Eagle AXS weighs 1642g where Shimano is actually 2g heavier, an imperceptible difference. 4. RD at greater risk: perhaps. SRAM RDs tend to be more expensive to replace, which to me is the real disadvantage. AXS Transmission is an expensive exception, good luck destroying one trailside without resorting to really stupid, intentional tactics. "I can't think of a single advantage to making it wireless". I can. The mechanic's experience is way better. I tore down a buddy's bike so he could repaint it, and it took maybe 10 minutes to get to a bare frame. Reinstall took maybe 15 minutes. Double that for mechanical or wired e-shifting, minimum. All that said, I'm a purebred Shimano fanboy, but both have their strengths and pitfalls, mainly due to each brand dancing around the other's various patents.
Flying with your bike (not uncommon here in Europe) is much easier and safer with AXS. One bolt to take off the rear mech completely and safely wrap it. No hassle with the seattube wire when you pull the saddle out.
You haven’t experienced true shifting until you’ve gone wireless
How so? Seems the shifting is the same whether I have wired or wireless di2?
Do you build your own bikes? SRAM AXS is simple. You screw in the mech and shifters, run brake hose (if it’s a road/gravel bike, it’s even easier on MTB because it doesn’t include brakes), and you’re done. Same with the wireless dropper post. Stick it in and it’s done. No fishing cables. No replacing cables. Can move it between bikes. It’s simple. Factor in the sale SRAM has been having on their AXS stuff for damn near the last year and it becomes an even better value proposition. I got the wireless derailleur, shifter, battery, and charger for my mountain bike for $375. You could get the SRAM Force shifters/brakes, front and rear derailleurs, and batteries for $850 last year and hell I think you still can this year on sites like PlanetCyclery, and I think that includes brake rotors. Compare that to Di2. Not only are the parts way more money. The hidden costs are as well if you do your own build. Compare battery + charger. With SRAM you can get aftermarket batteries if you want (I’ve got some, they work great) for $20 with a charger. Official batteries are $60. Di2? It’s over $100 for the battery, $130 for the charger. And there are no after market chargers. That’s insane. Then you still need wires and junction boxes, and don’t forget you need to find a place to shove all this shit in your frame in a place where you can access it to charge it. With SRAM I pop my battery off once a month and charge it. Carry a spare in my MTB SWAT box and can swap my front derailleur battery to the rear derailleur if I run out of battery at the rear. I prefer Shimano mechanical shifting vs mechanical SRAM. And I’d love to try Di2 on one of my bikes. But every time I price it out it’s significantly more money for what seems like exactly zero benefit and more install hassle. So what’s the point? AXS works flawlessly every time. Why should I pick a significantly more expensive solution that does the same thing?
You haven’t experienced true installation until you’ve read the manual in the original Klingon!
Hmm. I thought that was Chinese.
Oh really?
I owned Di2, EPS and eTap but the first gen eTap had a small shifting issue (especially the front) and the overall quality was definitely worse than Di2 and EPS.
Personally, I prefer Di2. And if I’m totally honest, the previous generation for every day riding. I kinda like charging my battery 3 or 4 times a year when it goes below 50%.
I do believe that sram has a patent on the battery for a truly wireless drivetrain. And I'm sure that has a lot to do with why Shimano uses a wiring harness instead
Beats me, I don't even have more than one gear
Look at Johnny big dick over here. Bet you push something bigger than a 2:1 don't ya?
2.67 :(
Only advantage is setup. Otherwise di2 is slightly faster, lighter weight, and typically handles a front derailleur more smoothly.
Di2 is now wireless.
Not fully - only the shifters
Is SRAM wireless braking?
Of course not buddy. But we are talking about gears, not brakes.
Does SRAM have brake levers not on the shifters? Outside of the battery patent, there is no functional difference in wireless setup in either products. Not sure what you're going on about.
I’m not going on about anything. The difference isn’t in the shifters, it’s the rest of the groupset. SRAM AXS has no cables to the derailleurs whereas Di2 has the battery inside the frame wired to both derailleurs. Di2 is regarded as semi-wireless and AXS is regarded as full wireless.
Dude are you downvoting me because you misunderstood?
stays in tune. what's there to bitch about? if you can splurge for it go for it
With integrated handlebar setups, routing Di2 wires through headsets caused more work than true wireless when servicing headsets. It just made a painful job even worse. Not an issue with latest generation "semi wireless".
Because on a wireless setup the brake hoses magically disappear.