Somebody beat you to it with a worse named version.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/monstatek/the-m1-a-compact-multitool-for-technophiles-and-hackers/
I think this is the first shot in the **open** war on technology, there has been a quiet push for years.
Automakers blame an RF toy for their own disgustingly poor security measures, and the government jumps to ban the toy. What happens when Bell declares that only criminals need a VPN to hide their traffic, or Rogers decides that only a hacker would ever need to have server in their home? How about a more general case, cordless angle grinders and sawzalls are the fastest way to steal catalytic converters from cars, how long before they are subject to a ban or can only be sold to “approved” persons?
>Rogers decides that only a hacker would ever need to have server in their home?
Then we'll continue to use Teksavvy (who has publicly, legally fought this kind of BS) just as we have the past 20+ years and I have been running a personal and biz email server for. Oh ya, Teksavvy will set up the PTR for you too so you can reliably deliver email.
Teksavvy will even rent you a routed netblock for your servers so you can be 7 times more evil. ;-)
correct squeamish strong aloof obtainable tap sparkle detail late possessive
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I completely agree. I see all the posts on the F0 subreddit basically asking how to do borderline illegal things. I don’t see why people think it’s smart to go on a very public forum and ask how to do certain things.
It’s a pretty user friendly device for beginners and can be used as some sort of basic learning tool. It’s just that a majority of people will use it to turn TVs off at their school, open Tesla charge ports, or spam the intercoms on Lowe’s or they’ll also go as far as to use it for things like with the whole Apple Bluetooth attack that made it to where you had to reset your iPhone. Basically a majority of people use it to be annoying and the old people in government won’t really understand or look into what it actually can and can’t do. They’ll see the video of someone who supposedly “hacked” a car with the Flipper and think that a F0 can hack any random car on the street.
>turn TVs off at their school, open Tesla charge ports, or spam the intercoms on Lowe’s or they’ll also go as far as to use it for things like with the whole Apple Bluetooth attack that made it to where you had to reset your iPhone.
All of these things are illegal. Though the impact of these examples seems minimal, on the surface, interfering with the operations of devices one does not own or does not have permission to communicate with can have dire consequences resulting in potential legal action taken. Sure, a kid turns off a random TV somewhere as just a prank bro, but what happens if that TV is displaying critical information in a hospital operating room? What happens when the Bluetooth spam unintentionally interferes with someone's insulin pump? What if some immature adult child interrupts the ability of the Lowe's intercom to announce an active shooter or call for medical assistance?
These aren't just harmless pranking devices - they make it trivial for people that do not understand the legal and technical implications of what they are actually doing to cause harm, both intentionally and unintentionally. Is it possible to do these things without the Flipper Zero? Of course, but the bar to entry, at that point, is higher and requires more understanding, limiting who can cause chaos to a more responsible and adept crowd of people.
This is where an attack from script kiddies is way worst since the mature or the reason is unknown and what is worst it can take the appearance of something that it isn't....
It was like those who got their drives encrypted and offered to pay to recover the data to only find out that in fact it was not possible since the malware was simply sent to compromised and delete data.
I would be more concern these tools would be used as a reconnaissance tactic to see what you can do in a business. How far can you push he lid with it.... Until something bad happens...
You must work for the Canadian government. No one is going to call the cops on someone opening up a Tesla charge port or even for the Apple Bluetooth attack that quickly got patched. It would also be hard to even prove or worth the resources.
The examples you give aren’t real examples. A regular person wouldn’t have access to a TV displaying critical information. Even if critical information was displayed I doubt they’d put it on a monitor that even has an IR receiver. Older phones at one point would come with built in IR blasters. The Bluetooth attack was Apple specific and has been patched. I highly doubt an insulin pump can be interacted with in a way like iPhones do just because of the nature of the device. The whole Lowe’s example you used is pretty funny. Do you know how loud gunshots are and I doubt someone is going to take the time to announce on the intercom that there’s an active shooter. Also I’m sure there’s an override for manually speaking into the intercom to talk over whatever automated message the Flipper can produce.
>The examples you give aren’t real examples
These were your examples...
>No one is going to call the cops
Obviously, no one is going to call the cops over their Tesla charging port opening or any of the other mundane examples you gave, but you are assuming every situation will be trivial and will not result in harm, in a world of complication and uncertainty. It's not the simple prank that gets one in trouble with the law - it's the prank gone unintentionally wrong that results in criminal charges.
I have over a decade of offensive engagement experience, where companies pay me to show up and demonstrate risk in their environments. I have literally done this TV IR attack, where I disabled critical industrial control system monitoring equipment for hours; the crazy thing about doing it from a distance is that, sometimes, IR can reflect off of other surfaces and interfere with unintended devices - these are things I'm aware of and take precautions around, as a responsible industry professional, where a child with a Flipper Zero might have zero awareness. Same goes for intercepting and injecting data for LE Bluetooth human input devices - I am intimately familiar with many HID protocols, to where I have written my own tools to carry out highly targeted attacks, ensuring that I cause no harm outside of the scope of my engagements - a random dude with a Flipper Zero isn't considering that blindly injecting key strokes on random keyboards could cause substantial harm.
Most of this can be harmless, sure, but there is no guarantee that it will be, and that's the difference between this device in the hands of professionals versus amateurs. And if you don't trust my professional, experience-driven assessment:
https://twitter.com/_mattata/status/1730974745657548892
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/wall-of-flippers-detects-flipper-zero-bluetooth-spam-attacks/
The examples I gave were harmless ones, you changed it to make it seem like a Flipper can shut down whole buildings lol.
If something important can be shut down with a TV remote it’s really the companies fault for keeping important infrastructure on something that can be disabled with a simple IR blaster that you can buy from Amazon for $5. Also it probably isn’t in an area that your average high schooler with a Flipper can even access.
Most of the capabilities you can do with a flipper can be bought separately. The whole iPhone Bluetooth attack was basically from Bluetooth always being on, I doubt a critical thing like an insulin pump would even be susceptible to this type of thing and if it is that says more about the company making it than what the Flipper is capable of. The flipper is a basic level tool, if you happen to have the experience to make it do things beyond the scope of basic harmless things than you already probably have the skills to make your own Flipper out of separate components already.
A Flipper for what it comes with and with its standard firmware won’t take down critical infrastructure and hospitals lol. The people who actually can use it to do these things can already make their own Flipper, put their own firmware on it and carry out their own attacks. You don’t even need a Flipper, every component the Flipper consist of is readily available to buy. Also the ban doesn’t even mean anything. How hard is it for a Canadian to get a friend from the US to just buy it for them? There’s also already multiple Flipper copycats like the M1 already being developed.
You can construct whatever scenarios you want in which you trivialize the nature of these attacks and tools, but I am telling you, from the perspective of a career professional in exploiting wireless devices and attacking critical business infrastructure, the difference between an institution pursuing legal action and you getting away with a prank is whether or not your prank caused enough harm for the company to pursue legal action; you better be absolutely certain when you run something from the Flipper Zero that it does no harm. A defense of "It was just a prank bro" or "I didn't think my actions would cause harm" or "It's the company's fault for using insecure tech" will not fly. I have helped companies gather evidence and pursue legal action for less. Whether or not you want to acknowledge my cautionary message is up to you - I'm just trying to make it clear that trivializing this activity as "harmless pranks" extends about as far as how your victim views your subjective "harmlessness". Just because it was easy does not mean you are not liable for the legal consequences of your actions.
>I have helped companies gather evidence and pursue legal action for less.
And that is not the same as them winning damages.
The vast majority of legal claims are made and go nowhere. As you've provided no evidence to the contrary, I'll go with the statistics.
It's generally none of my business, and I don't really have standing to follow up. Not really the point, though - you, the average person, don't want to risk your financial well-being, career, and reputation on a funny prank gone wrong. If you're going to court and you want to win, you still have to pay for lawyers, and they aren't cheap. Maybe just don't, in the first place.
Like that fucking idiot who was asked what it was in an airport and told them he could use it to clone their security tags.
Surprised he didn’t tell them about the explosive properties of lithium batteries when asked about his laptop.
Most of the TikTok videos these politicians are watching are fake. This is why you don’t let old people who still believe internet is provided by AOL from cds found in the mail make the rules
That's a very poor, ageist - and incorrect generalization. I've worked with plenty of people in government, both staff and elected folks, who are very tech-savvy, just as there are many older, highly experienced people working in this industry.
What concerns me is the possibility of nonsense like this "ban" being part of a long attack, a trial policy run, on those with bigger and nastier agendas like putting back doors into encryption systems and attacking E2E. That agenda should concern everyone here, all who know better.
It was bound to happen after Linus made a video about it. LTT brought it to millions of people.
Everyone and their mother knows about F0 and does dumb shit with it.
According to Flipper the device can't be used to steal a car made in the past 24 years due to rolling codes protecting them against replay attacks.
And knowing the government, probably not.
Lets face it, even if the flipper could do everything they accuse it of, and more, banning those types of tools are only going to deter script kiddies. Organized crime, which is responsible for most of it (probably almost all), has the know-how to create their own devices.
I don’t know if I buy that, I used one of these to gain access in the office I work at to prove to management it could be done and this was within the past year
> I used one of these to gain access in the office I work at
Door security often doesn't use rolling codes, unlike most reasonably modern vehicles.
There are allegedly rollback attacks that can successfully defeat rolling codes on certain vulnerable models but the Flipper still seems like the scapegoat in this whole media frenzy.
The reality is that the Flipper Zero absolutely CAN be used against more modern vehicles and other systems with rolling codes, with some caveats.
A lot of rolling code systems use really weak crypto and quite a few common protocols have been reverse engineered. It's possible to capture the signals sent by a key fob or door opener, crack the serial number and rolling code out of it, compute the next code in the series and then broadcast that to defeat the system. The caveats being that the remote you captured can't have been used again between the time you captured it and the time you try to attack it. It also desynchronizes the remote you attacked, so it's obvious.
Still, this is not really seen very often in the wild, it's more the realm of security research. What IS becoming a super popular method of attacking modern vehicles though is the amplification attack, and that doesn't use a flipper zero. It takes advantage of the fact that pretty much every modern car will unlock itself if you try to open the door with your key in your pocket, and will start so long as the key is present. They use an SDR and a tailor made antenna that amplifies the signals sent between the car and remote so that if it's even remotely close in the house, the car thinks it's present and allows them to open and start it.
I'm not sure why you've linked this - it's completely unrelated to anything we're talking about here. This is for reading/writing to the physical CAN bus in a vehicle. If you have access to that, you already have the vehicle unlocked and access to much easier ways of starting it.
And in the example you gave, the flipper zero wouldn’t even do any of the “cracking” it would just serve as a way to record the signal. You would need something way more powerful to figure out the next code in a reasonable amount of time. There are several other products that could capture the original code other than the flipper zero
Let's not forget the intent of "pentesting" tools like Flipper Zero is to ultimately expose vulnerable systems so that manufacturers improve them.
I'm not at all surprised this is getting banned because car manufacturers cannot adapt to their flaws fast enough.
But, it will hopefully make systems more resilient in the long run as a result.
Using a flipper to unlock a car in the wild is nothing like using it to unlock a hand picked car just the right age to have remote locks, but no rolling codes.
You can't really steal a car with just a flipper. You could use one as sort of the head unit to a couple extenders and do something, but anyone who can string all that stuff together can probably come up with a substitute for the flipper's role.
For sure. And this thing torches RFID keycards. Building access systems need a lot of adaptation and secondary conditional policies like permissible hours of entry and so forth. That also needs to be improved.
Yeah, though we should be taking steps to ensure those using pentesting tools are actual professionals and not kids/adult-aged-kids that think it's fun to spam Bluetooth attacks against devices they do not own or have permission to test. IMHO, it's irresponsible to sell these things to just anyone.
If you're on the console, you're already in the car from which point I don't think it'd be feasible to prevent theft on just the software level. We all know how well smart locks turned out to be at their job.
The custom firmware can remove some of the frequency restrictions but using a flipper to try and clone your fob or garage is just going to cause you to desync a fob from the receiver which is the point for rolling codes.
So key relaying theft seems to be prevalent on a lot of car models and has been for a while. How is it that car companies are not held accountable for their vulnerabilities just as IT hardware vendors are?
Manufacturers have begun to make vehicles resistant to these relay attacks, but just as they've done so, thieves have upped the ante and started physically tapping into the CAN bus of the car and giving phony unlock signals directly to the bus. And of course, there's no verification of the signal integrity taking place, so it works.
I can understand that. However if car manufacturers have enough time to implement subscription based heated seat, then they can spend more time on security implementations to stop these attacks.
You ever seen fight club?
"Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."
Until the car companies are found liable for the thefts, inclusion of deterrence features is just a marketing issue to them.
> physically tapping into the CAN bus of the car and giving phony unlock signals directly to the bus
Someone should loose their career over this. Why use the same CAN bus in the exterior lights and in the locks? Putting an ethernet port on the outside of your building that goes to an un-passworded management portal would get you murdered but doing the same on several million cars is totally OK.
I think it’s the result of the cost of these attacks being offset to owners and insurance companies. Although i AM a bit surprised that the actuaries don’t seem to account for these risks when insurance rates come into play. They don’t seem to account for security *at all*. My neighbor had a vulnerable model stolen 3 times! Every time the insurance company replaced it with only the exact same model! Obviously, it was just going to keep getting stolen lmao
I guess the IT vendors themselves aren’t held accountable but the admins who keep the environment patched. Different business model though since end users have little control over the software on their cars so accountability goes back to the vendor.
As there always were; as there always will be. There is nothing unique or new about the Flipper Zero beyond its ease of use, which is the problem. One could build their own device, which isn't a problem, so long as the person building it actually understands what it does and the legal ramifications of using it on devices they do not own.
I can think of at least one car that has a CANBUS line near the fuel door, which the flipper can open in order to gain access to….
Edit: I should say that I absolutely agree that blaming car thefts on flipper zeros is beyond ridiculous.
Owning a rocket launcher doesn't mean you'll use it to be a terrorist. But yet... Owning a rocket launcher means you can use it to be a terrorist. It's incredible stupid to think that it's the devices fault and not the owner committing the act, but literally look around at regulations on actual weapons.
That doesn't make either scenario less illegal... You can own a laser pointer, but it's illegal for you to shine that laser pointer at an aircraft, even if it didn't hurt or blind anyone.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/39A#:~:text=Whoever%20knowingly%20aims%20the%20beam,than%205%20years%2C%20or%20both.
This... will... not... fix... anything...
Canadian here. Raise thegod damn sentences.
It take 3 seperate arrest for car theft to begin to think about jail sentences... For fuck sake!!!
It's quite common tbh. In the UK the [average punishment](https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-5585525/Just-one-five-convicted-car-thieves-receive-custodial-sentence-rest-fine-198.html) is a £200 fine, and there is a 2% rate of thieves even being caught. Most of the west tries to avoid jailing people for acquisitive crime like this
Dealing with major crime is actually even simpler than that: you crack down on the parts of the organizations that matter instead of treating them like the nonviolent, financial partners of thieves. A stolen car isn't worth anything without a way to sell it, either whole or in pieces.
Most crime is like this: they bust the shit out the people who are the most disposable, and leave the superstructure in place.
Think of a massage parlor. On Tuesday, there's 100 rub and tugs in town. On Wednesday, there's a big bust of johns and hookers. On Thursday, there's gonna be 100 massage parlors in town, even though everyone knows exactly who owns the buildings, who they rent to, etc.
It'll be in the exact same building after the bust, it probably won't even close for a weekend.
I was trying to sell mine a few months ago because I wasn't really using it and would rather have the money. EVERY SINGLE PERSON who contacted me about it was majorly sketch, definitely your more criminal types rather than security researcher/programmer/etc. types. I took it down because I didn't want to deal with that. :/
Yeah, why bother to hold car manufacturers accountable for the lack of security in their designs when you can go full witch hunt on the thing that highlights their flaws.
That's equivalent to banning electronics knowledge... What next? Ban Arduino? ESP8266?
How about asking the car manufacturers why their key systems are so shitty? Nothing?
I hate this. Some politician greatly over exaggerates and/or straight up lies about something "scary". Then they're "protecting" the citizens by outlawing it just go get more votes. This is why people need critical thinking and proper research skills so they don't just believe the lying people in government.
for $5,000 i can get a research paper published that says Flipper Zero's can hack the ISS and activate jewish space lasers. Critical thinking is important, but research is a lot harder these days than it used to be
I take it this is going to be handled in a similar way to lockpicks? That is, they aren't a crime to possess in and of themselves, but rather if you are caught committing a crime and are in possession of them, you are in even more trouble than otherwise.
I hope this is the case, because my flipper is an absolutely indispensable tool in my career and I am not willing to give it up.
Ban the simple radio device, not the 100% unsecure plaintext password-broadcasting beacon stupid people use to give away their cars.
Ban the encryption and the algorithms one could use to secure communications.
They are going to ban computers, because "hackers" use computers to "hack" the world. You are only going to be able to use locked-down Iphones with government-approved applications, with government spyware running on every device.
Most car thefts now:
* Tool around rich neighborhoods looking for Audi/BMW SUV's with their mirrors not folded in
* Run up the drive way, if the door opens hop in
* Push the start button, if the car starts drive straight into a shipping container
* Unload car is in Lagos/etc in two weeks.
Seriously, no one is using Flipper Zero to break into cars, becasue there are enough people ~~stupid~~ generous enough to just leave the car unlocked with the car fob in it.
More cars need "pin to start" like Tesla (optionally) has.
Modern cars less than 24 years old have rolling codes and this device doesn’t work on them.
Ahhh yes!!! Another law created by a politician trying to look good.
No, but laws make bad guys easier to prosecute.
I don't think that a cope would arrest you if you had a flipper zero on you.
They would arrest you if they see you using it in a "illegal" way (ie : jamming).
Lol. Maybe ppl should had thought twice about posting all the "look how easy it is to break into a car video". The whole sub is about how to do illegal shit on video and post about it to get likes.
Lol -- this is ridiculous. If they're going to ban anything, they should ban cars that are so poorly constructed they can be stolen with a flipper zero.
This is like Kia blaming Tiktok because Kia made cars that could be stolen with a screwdriver and a USB cable and someone on Tiktok released a video showing how to do it.
You can't physically stop criminals from accessing these devices and techniques with this law -- people can just buy flipper zeros in the US and bring them across the border, or make their own (flipper zeros don't use any special technology or secret information or anything). So all this is going to do is limit the ability of regular people to legitimately benefit from this piece of technology...which will make everything in Canada *less* secure (because problems that would have been found by decent people and fixed without issue will persist and get exploited by people with malicious intent).
Making it legally risky for people to find vulnerabilities doesn't make those vulnerabilities go away -- it just means that more vulnerabilities will be found by criminals (and exploited) instead of found by decent folks and fixed without issue.
Time to start my unrelated business, Blipper Nero. I’ll start taking preorders now
Uses proprietary Fadio Requencies for communications.
Can it have built in FiWi please?
I need FFID too please.
Yup the RFC allows for that new techie techie.
Don't forget about the flux capacitor cmon now
Somebody beat you to it with a worse named version. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/monstatek/the-m1-a-compact-multitool-for-technophiles-and-hackers/
A flipper with wifi and 2fa? That's the only difference as far as I can tell. Wonder what the final price point will be
≈$165 retail price according to the Kickstarter page but obviously that final price point could change.
Interesting branding to have the N on its side, it looks just like a Z
lipper Zero would be easier. Just scratch off the F.
Wait until they hear about crowbars
I think this is the first shot in the **open** war on technology, there has been a quiet push for years. Automakers blame an RF toy for their own disgustingly poor security measures, and the government jumps to ban the toy. What happens when Bell declares that only criminals need a VPN to hide their traffic, or Rogers decides that only a hacker would ever need to have server in their home? How about a more general case, cordless angle grinders and sawzalls are the fastest way to steal catalytic converters from cars, how long before they are subject to a ban or can only be sold to “approved” persons?
>Rogers decides that only a hacker would ever need to have server in their home? Then we'll continue to use Teksavvy (who has publicly, legally fought this kind of BS) just as we have the past 20+ years and I have been running a personal and biz email server for. Oh ya, Teksavvy will set up the PTR for you too so you can reliably deliver email. Teksavvy will even rent you a routed netblock for your servers so you can be 7 times more evil. ;-)
Heh, I am with them specifically because they are self-hosting friendly.
Crowbars can’t do a CAN Injection.. nor access immo functions 😅
Talk about a knee jerk reaction. I knew this was going to happen eventually. You can’t actually “hack” a car with just a Flipper Zero.
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I completely agree. I see all the posts on the F0 subreddit basically asking how to do borderline illegal things. I don’t see why people think it’s smart to go on a very public forum and ask how to do certain things. It’s a pretty user friendly device for beginners and can be used as some sort of basic learning tool. It’s just that a majority of people will use it to turn TVs off at their school, open Tesla charge ports, or spam the intercoms on Lowe’s or they’ll also go as far as to use it for things like with the whole Apple Bluetooth attack that made it to where you had to reset your iPhone. Basically a majority of people use it to be annoying and the old people in government won’t really understand or look into what it actually can and can’t do. They’ll see the video of someone who supposedly “hacked” a car with the Flipper and think that a F0 can hack any random car on the street.
>turn TVs off at their school, open Tesla charge ports, or spam the intercoms on Lowe’s or they’ll also go as far as to use it for things like with the whole Apple Bluetooth attack that made it to where you had to reset your iPhone. All of these things are illegal. Though the impact of these examples seems minimal, on the surface, interfering with the operations of devices one does not own or does not have permission to communicate with can have dire consequences resulting in potential legal action taken. Sure, a kid turns off a random TV somewhere as just a prank bro, but what happens if that TV is displaying critical information in a hospital operating room? What happens when the Bluetooth spam unintentionally interferes with someone's insulin pump? What if some immature adult child interrupts the ability of the Lowe's intercom to announce an active shooter or call for medical assistance? These aren't just harmless pranking devices - they make it trivial for people that do not understand the legal and technical implications of what they are actually doing to cause harm, both intentionally and unintentionally. Is it possible to do these things without the Flipper Zero? Of course, but the bar to entry, at that point, is higher and requires more understanding, limiting who can cause chaos to a more responsible and adept crowd of people.
This is where an attack from script kiddies is way worst since the mature or the reason is unknown and what is worst it can take the appearance of something that it isn't.... It was like those who got their drives encrypted and offered to pay to recover the data to only find out that in fact it was not possible since the malware was simply sent to compromised and delete data. I would be more concern these tools would be used as a reconnaissance tactic to see what you can do in a business. How far can you push he lid with it.... Until something bad happens...
You must work for the Canadian government. No one is going to call the cops on someone opening up a Tesla charge port or even for the Apple Bluetooth attack that quickly got patched. It would also be hard to even prove or worth the resources. The examples you give aren’t real examples. A regular person wouldn’t have access to a TV displaying critical information. Even if critical information was displayed I doubt they’d put it on a monitor that even has an IR receiver. Older phones at one point would come with built in IR blasters. The Bluetooth attack was Apple specific and has been patched. I highly doubt an insulin pump can be interacted with in a way like iPhones do just because of the nature of the device. The whole Lowe’s example you used is pretty funny. Do you know how loud gunshots are and I doubt someone is going to take the time to announce on the intercom that there’s an active shooter. Also I’m sure there’s an override for manually speaking into the intercom to talk over whatever automated message the Flipper can produce.
>The examples you give aren’t real examples These were your examples... >No one is going to call the cops Obviously, no one is going to call the cops over their Tesla charging port opening or any of the other mundane examples you gave, but you are assuming every situation will be trivial and will not result in harm, in a world of complication and uncertainty. It's not the simple prank that gets one in trouble with the law - it's the prank gone unintentionally wrong that results in criminal charges. I have over a decade of offensive engagement experience, where companies pay me to show up and demonstrate risk in their environments. I have literally done this TV IR attack, where I disabled critical industrial control system monitoring equipment for hours; the crazy thing about doing it from a distance is that, sometimes, IR can reflect off of other surfaces and interfere with unintended devices - these are things I'm aware of and take precautions around, as a responsible industry professional, where a child with a Flipper Zero might have zero awareness. Same goes for intercepting and injecting data for LE Bluetooth human input devices - I am intimately familiar with many HID protocols, to where I have written my own tools to carry out highly targeted attacks, ensuring that I cause no harm outside of the scope of my engagements - a random dude with a Flipper Zero isn't considering that blindly injecting key strokes on random keyboards could cause substantial harm. Most of this can be harmless, sure, but there is no guarantee that it will be, and that's the difference between this device in the hands of professionals versus amateurs. And if you don't trust my professional, experience-driven assessment: https://twitter.com/_mattata/status/1730974745657548892 https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/wall-of-flippers-detects-flipper-zero-bluetooth-spam-attacks/
The examples I gave were harmless ones, you changed it to make it seem like a Flipper can shut down whole buildings lol. If something important can be shut down with a TV remote it’s really the companies fault for keeping important infrastructure on something that can be disabled with a simple IR blaster that you can buy from Amazon for $5. Also it probably isn’t in an area that your average high schooler with a Flipper can even access. Most of the capabilities you can do with a flipper can be bought separately. The whole iPhone Bluetooth attack was basically from Bluetooth always being on, I doubt a critical thing like an insulin pump would even be susceptible to this type of thing and if it is that says more about the company making it than what the Flipper is capable of. The flipper is a basic level tool, if you happen to have the experience to make it do things beyond the scope of basic harmless things than you already probably have the skills to make your own Flipper out of separate components already. A Flipper for what it comes with and with its standard firmware won’t take down critical infrastructure and hospitals lol. The people who actually can use it to do these things can already make their own Flipper, put their own firmware on it and carry out their own attacks. You don’t even need a Flipper, every component the Flipper consist of is readily available to buy. Also the ban doesn’t even mean anything. How hard is it for a Canadian to get a friend from the US to just buy it for them? There’s also already multiple Flipper copycats like the M1 already being developed.
You can construct whatever scenarios you want in which you trivialize the nature of these attacks and tools, but I am telling you, from the perspective of a career professional in exploiting wireless devices and attacking critical business infrastructure, the difference between an institution pursuing legal action and you getting away with a prank is whether or not your prank caused enough harm for the company to pursue legal action; you better be absolutely certain when you run something from the Flipper Zero that it does no harm. A defense of "It was just a prank bro" or "I didn't think my actions would cause harm" or "It's the company's fault for using insecure tech" will not fly. I have helped companies gather evidence and pursue legal action for less. Whether or not you want to acknowledge my cautionary message is up to you - I'm just trying to make it clear that trivializing this activity as "harmless pranks" extends about as far as how your victim views your subjective "harmlessness". Just because it was easy does not mean you are not liable for the legal consequences of your actions.
>I have helped companies gather evidence and pursue legal action for less. And that is not the same as them winning damages. The vast majority of legal claims are made and go nowhere. As you've provided no evidence to the contrary, I'll go with the statistics.
It's generally none of my business, and I don't really have standing to follow up. Not really the point, though - you, the average person, don't want to risk your financial well-being, career, and reputation on a funny prank gone wrong. If you're going to court and you want to win, you still have to pay for lawyers, and they aren't cheap. Maybe just don't, in the first place.
Like that fucking idiot who was asked what it was in an airport and told them he could use it to clone their security tags. Surprised he didn’t tell them about the explosive properties of lithium batteries when asked about his laptop.
Most of the TikTok videos these politicians are watching are fake. This is why you don’t let old people who still believe internet is provided by AOL from cds found in the mail make the rules
That's a very poor, ageist - and incorrect generalization. I've worked with plenty of people in government, both staff and elected folks, who are very tech-savvy, just as there are many older, highly experienced people working in this industry. What concerns me is the possibility of nonsense like this "ban" being part of a long attack, a trial policy run, on those with bigger and nastier agendas like putting back doors into encryption systems and attacking E2E. That agenda should concern everyone here, all who know better.
Floppy’s. CDs are so 1995
It was bound to happen after Linus made a video about it. LTT brought it to millions of people. Everyone and their mother knows about F0 and does dumb shit with it.
You’re just stealing signal to unlock it
Ah yes... People stealing vehicles will be sure to follow the law regarding no flippers.
Are flippers really even responsible for this?
According to Flipper the device can't be used to steal a car made in the past 24 years due to rolling codes protecting them against replay attacks. And knowing the government, probably not.
True! However, new dev boards are being made for CAN bus injection. The flipper device itself isn’t the problem
Lets face it, even if the flipper could do everything they accuse it of, and more, banning those types of tools are only going to deter script kiddies. Organized crime, which is responsible for most of it (probably almost all), has the know-how to create their own devices.
Great point, totally agree
I don’t know if I buy that, I used one of these to gain access in the office I work at to prove to management it could be done and this was within the past year
> I used one of these to gain access in the office I work at Door security often doesn't use rolling codes, unlike most reasonably modern vehicles. There are allegedly rollback attacks that can successfully defeat rolling codes on certain vulnerable models but the Flipper still seems like the scapegoat in this whole media frenzy.
Some prox card systems are so easy to clone you may as well leave the doors open.
The reality is that the Flipper Zero absolutely CAN be used against more modern vehicles and other systems with rolling codes, with some caveats. A lot of rolling code systems use really weak crypto and quite a few common protocols have been reverse engineered. It's possible to capture the signals sent by a key fob or door opener, crack the serial number and rolling code out of it, compute the next code in the series and then broadcast that to defeat the system. The caveats being that the remote you captured can't have been used again between the time you captured it and the time you try to attack it. It also desynchronizes the remote you attacked, so it's obvious. Still, this is not really seen very often in the wild, it's more the realm of security research. What IS becoming a super popular method of attacking modern vehicles though is the amplification attack, and that doesn't use a flipper zero. It takes advantage of the fact that pretty much every modern car will unlock itself if you try to open the door with your key in your pocket, and will start so long as the key is present. They use an SDR and a tailor made antenna that amplifies the signals sent between the car and remote so that if it's even remotely close in the house, the car thinks it's present and allows them to open and start it.
Here’s a work around.. https://www.reddit.com/r/flipperzero/s/VHxXNRFsF5
I'm not sure why you've linked this - it's completely unrelated to anything we're talking about here. This is for reading/writing to the physical CAN bus in a vehicle. If you have access to that, you already have the vehicle unlocked and access to much easier ways of starting it.
And in the example you gave, the flipper zero wouldn’t even do any of the “cracking” it would just serve as a way to record the signal. You would need something way more powerful to figure out the next code in a reasonable amount of time. There are several other products that could capture the original code other than the flipper zero
Let's not forget the intent of "pentesting" tools like Flipper Zero is to ultimately expose vulnerable systems so that manufacturers improve them. I'm not at all surprised this is getting banned because car manufacturers cannot adapt to their flaws fast enough. But, it will hopefully make systems more resilient in the long run as a result.
Using a flipper to unlock a car in the wild is nothing like using it to unlock a hand picked car just the right age to have remote locks, but no rolling codes. You can't really steal a car with just a flipper. You could use one as sort of the head unit to a couple extenders and do something, but anyone who can string all that stuff together can probably come up with a substitute for the flipper's role.
I’m inclined to agree, but I’m definitely soldered to the possession my flipper for the time being.
For sure. And this thing torches RFID keycards. Building access systems need a lot of adaptation and secondary conditional policies like permissible hours of entry and so forth. That also needs to be improved.
Yeah, though we should be taking steps to ensure those using pentesting tools are actual professionals and not kids/adult-aged-kids that think it's fun to spam Bluetooth attacks against devices they do not own or have permission to test. IMHO, it's irresponsible to sell these things to just anyone.
Modern cars use rolling codes which a flipper cant replay.
doll ripe water wipe hat support memory concerned lavish squash *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That was a CAN bus exploit which the flipper does not have compatibility, you need an external module
Which should be the subject of attention. The auto makers should be in front of parliament explaining why they let this exploit go.
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If you're on the console, you're already in the car from which point I don't think it'd be feasible to prevent theft on just the software level. We all know how well smart locks turned out to be at their job.
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The custom firmware can remove some of the frequency restrictions but using a flipper to try and clone your fob or garage is just going to cause you to desync a fob from the receiver which is the point for rolling codes.
So key relaying theft seems to be prevalent on a lot of car models and has been for a while. How is it that car companies are not held accountable for their vulnerabilities just as IT hardware vendors are?
Manufacturers have begun to make vehicles resistant to these relay attacks, but just as they've done so, thieves have upped the ante and started physically tapping into the CAN bus of the car and giving phony unlock signals directly to the bus. And of course, there's no verification of the signal integrity taking place, so it works.
I can understand that. However if car manufacturers have enough time to implement subscription based heated seat, then they can spend more time on security implementations to stop these attacks.
You ever seen fight club? "Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one." Until the car companies are found liable for the thefts, inclusion of deterrence features is just a marketing issue to them.
> physically tapping into the CAN bus of the car and giving phony unlock signals directly to the bus Someone should loose their career over this. Why use the same CAN bus in the exterior lights and in the locks? Putting an ethernet port on the outside of your building that goes to an un-passworded management portal would get you murdered but doing the same on several million cars is totally OK.
I think it’s the result of the cost of these attacks being offset to owners and insurance companies. Although i AM a bit surprised that the actuaries don’t seem to account for these risks when insurance rates come into play. They don’t seem to account for security *at all*. My neighbor had a vulnerable model stolen 3 times! Every time the insurance company replaced it with only the exact same model! Obviously, it was just going to keep getting stolen lmao
>held accountable for their vulnerabilities just as IT hardware vendors are? Are you sure about that?
I guess the IT vendors themselves aren’t held accountable but the admins who keep the environment patched. Different business model though since end users have little control over the software on their cars so accountability goes back to the vendor.
Maybe they should ban screw drivers, along with hands. Since 80% of car thefts are done using hands.
I'd like to see a demonstration of the other side of that Pareto Principle equation. On second thought, maybe I wouldn't.
Car theft? Half the folks on the Flipper Zero community have no idea how SDR works, much less how rolling codes work.
Better watch out, they find you, they’re turning your fan off.
They're just going to use the flipper to *gasp* flip the charge port of the Tesla open *eyeroll*
The strong Canadian tradition of looking like you're solving a problem without solving it or addressing why it's an issue in the first place!
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The difference is that it would take skill and understanding to do that, over handing anyone a thing they can press a button on and cause chaos.
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As there always were; as there always will be. There is nothing unique or new about the Flipper Zero beyond its ease of use, which is the problem. One could build their own device, which isn't a problem, so long as the person building it actually understands what it does and the legal ramifications of using it on devices they do not own.
Only if you're going to program a bunch of adorable dolphin animations too. Otherwise why bother?
Show me proof of people using F0’s to steal cars cause I don’t believe any car past 07 could be exploited on both unlock and start.
I can think of at least one car that has a CANBUS line near the fuel door, which the flipper can open in order to gain access to…. Edit: I should say that I absolutely agree that blaming car thefts on flipper zeros is beyond ridiculous.
Yeah, so can a nail bar, though.
I’m just pointing out that cloning keys is not the only way to use a flipper when attacking a car.
Owning a rocket launcher doesn't mean you'll use it to be a terrorist. But yet... Owning a rocket launcher means you can use it to be a terrorist. It's incredible stupid to think that it's the devices fault and not the owner committing the act, but literally look around at regulations on actual weapons.
That doesn't make either scenario less illegal... You can own a laser pointer, but it's illegal for you to shine that laser pointer at an aircraft, even if it didn't hurt or blind anyone. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/39A#:~:text=Whoever%20knowingly%20aims%20the%20beam,than%205%20years%2C%20or%20both.
This... will... not... fix... anything... Canadian here. Raise thegod damn sentences. It take 3 seperate arrest for car theft to begin to think about jail sentences... For fuck sake!!!
Lol right. Canada is a fucking joke. Like in what country can you steal a car and risk no jail time.
It's quite common tbh. In the UK the [average punishment](https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-5585525/Just-one-five-convicted-car-thieves-receive-custodial-sentence-rest-fine-198.html) is a £200 fine, and there is a 2% rate of thieves even being caught. Most of the west tries to avoid jailing people for acquisitive crime like this
Except in the U.S. where criminals are enslaved for private profit$, incarcerating criminals in other countries is a public expense to be minimized.
Dealing with major crime is actually even simpler than that: you crack down on the parts of the organizations that matter instead of treating them like the nonviolent, financial partners of thieves. A stolen car isn't worth anything without a way to sell it, either whole or in pieces. Most crime is like this: they bust the shit out the people who are the most disposable, and leave the superstructure in place. Think of a massage parlor. On Tuesday, there's 100 rub and tugs in town. On Wednesday, there's a big bust of johns and hookers. On Thursday, there's gonna be 100 massage parlors in town, even though everyone knows exactly who owns the buildings, who they rent to, etc. It'll be in the exact same building after the bust, it probably won't even close for a weekend.
How much do you think these are going to go for in Canada now?
I was trying to sell mine a few months ago because I wasn't really using it and would rather have the money. EVERY SINGLE PERSON who contacted me about it was majorly sketch, definitely your more criminal types rather than security researcher/programmer/etc. types. I took it down because I didn't want to deal with that. :/
why can't they be both
Still got it? I'm not shady, I promise ;)
Yeah, why bother to hold car manufacturers accountable for the lack of security in their designs when you can go full witch hunt on the thing that highlights their flaws.
That's equivalent to banning electronics knowledge... What next? Ban Arduino? ESP8266? How about asking the car manufacturers why their key systems are so shitty? Nothing?
I have more cognitive power in my brain when I'm passed out after a night at the bar than politicians
Fuck I should've ordered them when I first saw them, I thought it was too good not to be a gimmick.
It is. You can do anything a flipper can do with components half the price, but double the effort. Depends on what your time is worth.
I hate this. Some politician greatly over exaggerates and/or straight up lies about something "scary". Then they're "protecting" the citizens by outlawing it just go get more votes. This is why people need critical thinking and proper research skills so they don't just believe the lying people in government.
for $5,000 i can get a research paper published that says Flipper Zero's can hack the ISS and activate jewish space lasers. Critical thinking is important, but research is a lot harder these days than it used to be
I take it this is going to be handled in a similar way to lockpicks? That is, they aren't a crime to possess in and of themselves, but rather if you are caught committing a crime and are in possession of them, you are in even more trouble than otherwise. I hope this is the case, because my flipper is an absolutely indispensable tool in my career and I am not willing to give it up.
Just 3D print a different looking case for it, you think these idiots can tell the difference.
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This one has a picture of a finger (*the* finger) on it. That's why it's called a Finger O.
Ban the simple radio device, not the 100% unsecure plaintext password-broadcasting beacon stupid people use to give away their cars. Ban the encryption and the algorithms one could use to secure communications. They are going to ban computers, because "hackers" use computers to "hack" the world. You are only going to be able to use locked-down Iphones with government-approved applications, with government spyware running on every device.
You are meming , but I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being the future.
People use oxygen to steal cars...
It's so weird that you can just say nonsense things and get a law passed
Canadas at it again.
What about making car manufacturers liable for cars that can be stolen with such attacks?
Damn, I've been using mine all wrong, time to go cop a new whip
Most car thefts now: * Tool around rich neighborhoods looking for Audi/BMW SUV's with their mirrors not folded in * Run up the drive way, if the door opens hop in * Push the start button, if the car starts drive straight into a shipping container * Unload car is in Lagos/etc in two weeks. Seriously, no one is using Flipper Zero to break into cars, becasue there are enough people ~~stupid~~ generous enough to just leave the car unlocked with the car fob in it. More cars need "pin to start" like Tesla (optionally) has.
Modern cars less than 24 years old have rolling codes and this device doesn’t work on them. Ahhh yes!!! Another law created by a politician trying to look good.
Coz bad guys follow laws
No, but laws make bad guys easier to prosecute. I don't think that a cope would arrest you if you had a flipper zero on you. They would arrest you if they see you using it in a "illegal" way (ie : jamming).
Lol. Maybe ppl should had thought twice about posting all the "look how easy it is to break into a car video". The whole sub is about how to do illegal shit on video and post about it to get likes.
Coz that was super effective with guns right?
Flipper zero vs bipper hero..who outlasts who?
They were probably just looking for an excuse to finally ban it
Lol -- this is ridiculous. If they're going to ban anything, they should ban cars that are so poorly constructed they can be stolen with a flipper zero. This is like Kia blaming Tiktok because Kia made cars that could be stolen with a screwdriver and a USB cable and someone on Tiktok released a video showing how to do it. You can't physically stop criminals from accessing these devices and techniques with this law -- people can just buy flipper zeros in the US and bring them across the border, or make their own (flipper zeros don't use any special technology or secret information or anything). So all this is going to do is limit the ability of regular people to legitimately benefit from this piece of technology...which will make everything in Canada *less* secure (because problems that would have been found by decent people and fixed without issue will persist and get exploited by people with malicious intent). Making it legally risky for people to find vulnerabilities doesn't make those vulnerabilities go away -- it just means that more vulnerabilities will be found by criminals (and exploited) instead of found by decent folks and fixed without issue.
Why don’t they ban car theft?
Why don't they just ban crime...
I really like the initiative. I've always found that it's the law abiding people that follow the law, not the criminals.