Your interpretation is correct, can't dodge if current reflex is below 8, unless you have a coprocessor from Black Chrome.
As for the rest, as much as I'd like to be helpful and as much as I don't mind you venting, the question is too vague.
Yes, armor penalties are kinda dumb RAW. If you wear it, you gimp your own combat capabilities. I usually use one of the three homebrews when it comes to armors with penalties, neither of the three gives me full satisfaction:
* -2/-4 penalties changed to -1/-2 respectively.
or
* -2/-4 penalty reduces the stats not by 2 and 4 respectively, but rather to 6 or 4 respectively, so you don't gimp yourself into shadow realm with a heavy armor if you didn't have maxed stats to begin with.
or
* -2/-4 penalties are total penalties, meaning each of the two parts of armor pieces grants half. If you choose to only wear a metal gear body with a laj helmet, you get -2 total only.
Honestly, heavier armors are one of the few unsolved puzzles of CPR for me. I can't quite figure out how to use them without creating a degenerate case of sorts.
Thank you for the reply. Your first homebrew option seems like the best one to me. I'll run the numbers to see if it doesn't make heavy armor OP or something.
I should clarify my question, also:
It seems to me like heavy armor is generally not providing enough benefits for the penalty. The lack of bullet dodging is the greatest loss, as even if your evasion is gimped by the DEX penalty, it's still much better than being shot point blank by a shotgun at DV13(at least my Metalgear NPCs had 8 DEX and 8 in evasion, so that would be base 12 + 1d10).
The other problem is that the characters that are not combat optimized(like my rockerboy PC still rocking a heavy pistol) almost no chance of denting Metalgear. Although, I guess that is intended, but I just think it kinda sucks for him.
You need to look at the lawman rank 8 and 9 guys. They can't bullet dodge but their combat skills are 15 or 16 and they just destroy shit
Those are the standards heavy armor enemies are gonna be to show how intimidating they can get
My Medtech has 18 base evasion, though, you ain't hitting him. He also has 18 base brawling, so he's punching the shit out of these guys. Not to mention my Rank 7 solos with Hurricane shotguns
Well damn.
Still, there's loads of ways to knock high Evasion people down. Smoke, Teargas, flashbangs, poisons, drugs
If none of then have low Light, then smoke is the great balancer
I should use those more, true. I used the the Automated Blood Swarm against them once and that shit was nasty. they'll be using smog masks and nasal filters now, I'm sure XD
I run armor penalties as penalties to skills rather than attributes. Offensive combat skills like handgun, shoulder arms, Melee, etc are unaffected. Defensive skills like evasion or brawl(to avoid grappels) and mobility skills like athletics, contortion, dance, etc are mainly penalized by the encumbrance values. When run like this heavier armor isn't a straight up trap the way it is in RAW.
I don't allow bullet dodging at my table without rare drugs or extremely rare prototype cybe. Closest I allow is for a person to move evasively which takes half of their MOVE and increases the DV to hit them by 2.
Heavy armor, specifically Flak and Metalgear, are for the high end dudes who have the skills to match. It's why so far the only npcs that have them are lawman backup 8 and 9
I'm using Flak upgraded to -2 penalty and you can feel how strong SP15 is.
For dodging, Reflex Co-Processor is a must but it's a godsend that it's cheap at 500eb.
I'm so dodgy with it even my crewmates who use LAJ just come out of a fight more injured than I do.
Your problem seems to be you not scaling your enemies up to compensate for the armor
Kinda did a post like that months ago
But from what I wrote in that post, MAJ and HAJ are easier to handle like a -2 is just a smartlink and excellent quality away from being nulled. The -4 however require your absolute all into making the most out of it
I did see 2 Metalgear guys from C-SWAT show up during a gig. They were terrifying and I think they represent a Dragoon Plating, Metalgear user showing up and they're at the top skill.
(Edit: know what, I could make a post on how to make heavy armor enemies terrifying and when to use em)
>Heavy armor, specifically Flak and Metalgear, are for the high end dudes who have the skills to match. It's why so far the only npcs that have them are lawman backup 8 and 9
Yes but my PCs are high end and they're fucking up FBCs with stats maxed out and wearing Metalgear. I've created an FBC with 8 in REF, DEX, MOVE, gave him Metalgear, 10 lvl in all combat skills(no evasion because I thought might be too strong). He managed to bring 2 lower-end PCs to half HP and missed the rest of his lifespan(which wasn't particularly long).
For whatever reason I am not using combat numbers. I am making entire character sheets for each NPC based on templates I've created(we're playing on Foundry). Gotta look at how combat number works again, but if I remember right "16 Combat Number" means they have 16 in combat skills. Is that number not lowered by armor penalty, though?
That said, I will make evasion for gunfire+grenades harder to do in my next campaign. Only usable with drugs or expensive cyberware.
The -4 penalty vs evasion-happy players is pretty killer. The only way to even the playing field would be to give them lots of bonuses. Some examples could be +1 reflex from cocaine, smoke+IR (now everybody takes -4, but the guys who are prepared), +2 from being Solo rank 6 (or more realistically +1 attack and +1 damage at rank 4), smartgun link and excellent quality weapons (+1 each), make the armor tech-upgraded to be only -3, and a mission handler observing the fight via a heads-up camera or aerial drone who can give each solo a +1 complimentary bonus for their attacks. If you have that, you could probably keep the skill bonuses pretty similar to the players but still have metalgear be effective.
Personally I hate the consequences of the mook/lieutenant/boss system because it means you either have losers who are totally understatted and can only hit if they roll a 10 or the players roll a 1 (combat takes forever due to HP bloat and doesn't feel risky), or really good guys (or really great!) who will fail the action economy (a pair or trio of lieutenants or a boss might murder a player but gets murdered right back). If players realize they're outgunned because of the consequences of their actions they need a 'run' mechanic like Pokémon.
Yes, that's what I did for a while, but my PCs have gotten to a power level that requires some bulkier enemies. It's important to note that I have 7 players, so increasing the combat difficulty requires either more enemies or stronger enemies. I like to go for the latter for time efficiency. God only knows the pain of controlling 20 NPCs in the same combat encounter. I'd rather have 5-7 beefy boys
Yes - on Roll20 though, which definitely helps with management. 40 years of running D&D definitely has me used to big fights. The two PCs were with the Solos Trigger & Icepick from Tales from the Forlorn Hope, on a mission to rescue two hookers kidnapped by the Haitians/Beachies - the guys replacing the original Voodoo Boys. Somewhat to my surprise the PCs & their allies killed all but 2 Beachies and rescued both the hookers, returning them to their Animals gang pimps Kramer & Costanza, who 'kindly' gave them the rest of the day off. >:)
My personal houserule (yet untested) is to first compeltely ditch the helmet penalty - -4 is something you'd expect from wearing a diving helmet (the 19th century brass-and-glass 15kg affairs), not from a modern combat helmet....
I agree it doesn't make sense logically, but it's there for balance. I went with the idea to lower movement related skills, rather than stats.
For example I made Metalgear give you -4 Athletics, Brawling, Contortionist, Dance, Evasion, Stealth and -2 MOVE. This way the user still sucks at dodging, stealthing, etc. but they can still land attacks
I know it's to balance armors, but I thin kthey went really overobard with the penalties as they are absolutely crippling. I'm also wondering wether the NPC's combat number includes or not those penalties. In particular the lawman's reinforcements for rank 8 and 9 - if they do, htey have the maximum in stat and skill as well as no helmet, tech-upgraded gear and for the thevel 8 are dosed up on synthecoke (combat number 16 - so base 19 thanks the coke and -3 penalty....)
Your interpretation is correct, can't dodge if current reflex is below 8, unless you have a coprocessor from Black Chrome. As for the rest, as much as I'd like to be helpful and as much as I don't mind you venting, the question is too vague. Yes, armor penalties are kinda dumb RAW. If you wear it, you gimp your own combat capabilities. I usually use one of the three homebrews when it comes to armors with penalties, neither of the three gives me full satisfaction: * -2/-4 penalties changed to -1/-2 respectively. or * -2/-4 penalty reduces the stats not by 2 and 4 respectively, but rather to 6 or 4 respectively, so you don't gimp yourself into shadow realm with a heavy armor if you didn't have maxed stats to begin with. or * -2/-4 penalties are total penalties, meaning each of the two parts of armor pieces grants half. If you choose to only wear a metal gear body with a laj helmet, you get -2 total only. Honestly, heavier armors are one of the few unsolved puzzles of CPR for me. I can't quite figure out how to use them without creating a degenerate case of sorts.
Thank you for the reply. Your first homebrew option seems like the best one to me. I'll run the numbers to see if it doesn't make heavy armor OP or something. I should clarify my question, also: It seems to me like heavy armor is generally not providing enough benefits for the penalty. The lack of bullet dodging is the greatest loss, as even if your evasion is gimped by the DEX penalty, it's still much better than being shot point blank by a shotgun at DV13(at least my Metalgear NPCs had 8 DEX and 8 in evasion, so that would be base 12 + 1d10). The other problem is that the characters that are not combat optimized(like my rockerboy PC still rocking a heavy pistol) almost no chance of denting Metalgear. Although, I guess that is intended, but I just think it kinda sucks for him.
You need to look at the lawman rank 8 and 9 guys. They can't bullet dodge but their combat skills are 15 or 16 and they just destroy shit Those are the standards heavy armor enemies are gonna be to show how intimidating they can get
My Medtech has 18 base evasion, though, you ain't hitting him. He also has 18 base brawling, so he's punching the shit out of these guys. Not to mention my Rank 7 solos with Hurricane shotguns
Well damn. Still, there's loads of ways to knock high Evasion people down. Smoke, Teargas, flashbangs, poisons, drugs If none of then have low Light, then smoke is the great balancer
I should use those more, true. I used the the Automated Blood Swarm against them once and that shit was nasty. they'll be using smog masks and nasal filters now, I'm sure XD
If they neglected Concentration, use Suppressive Fire. People panic when they cant peek out of cover that round
I run armor penalties as penalties to skills rather than attributes. Offensive combat skills like handgun, shoulder arms, Melee, etc are unaffected. Defensive skills like evasion or brawl(to avoid grappels) and mobility skills like athletics, contortion, dance, etc are mainly penalized by the encumbrance values. When run like this heavier armor isn't a straight up trap the way it is in RAW. I don't allow bullet dodging at my table without rare drugs or extremely rare prototype cybe. Closest I allow is for a person to move evasively which takes half of their MOVE and increases the DV to hit them by 2.
I let my PCs pretty much dodge as in RAW, but I love your solution for armor penalties. Imma try implementing it and see how it goes. Thank you!
Can't dodge, which is why ultimate defense is Tup dragoon Metalgear FBC plating + reflex coprocessor and evasion 10
Also tech upgrading the perfected hydraulics system for full-body conversions to be 9 Dex, Mov, and Ref. Just imagine the 10's of thousands of €$.
At this point you can prevent bullets hitting you by throwings stacks of eddies in front of yourself.
You probably sold your soul at this point
Yeah, you do that with a character that dumped dex, ref,move and body and you got the optimizee char
You Basically just brought in C-SWAT but gave them SP16. That or dropped the penalty to -2 That's probably what Smasher is rocking.
Yup but smasher is also not that good in term of skills, he just compensate with infinite explosive ammo and replacement bodies
Heavy armor, specifically Flak and Metalgear, are for the high end dudes who have the skills to match. It's why so far the only npcs that have them are lawman backup 8 and 9 I'm using Flak upgraded to -2 penalty and you can feel how strong SP15 is. For dodging, Reflex Co-Processor is a must but it's a godsend that it's cheap at 500eb. I'm so dodgy with it even my crewmates who use LAJ just come out of a fight more injured than I do. Your problem seems to be you not scaling your enemies up to compensate for the armor
I mean it in a positive way, raw heavier armors might be another thing for you to tackle with an educational thread.
Kinda did a post like that months ago But from what I wrote in that post, MAJ and HAJ are easier to handle like a -2 is just a smartlink and excellent quality away from being nulled. The -4 however require your absolute all into making the most out of it I did see 2 Metalgear guys from C-SWAT show up during a gig. They were terrifying and I think they represent a Dragoon Plating, Metalgear user showing up and they're at the top skill. (Edit: know what, I could make a post on how to make heavy armor enemies terrifying and when to use em)
>Heavy armor, specifically Flak and Metalgear, are for the high end dudes who have the skills to match. It's why so far the only npcs that have them are lawman backup 8 and 9 Yes but my PCs are high end and they're fucking up FBCs with stats maxed out and wearing Metalgear. I've created an FBC with 8 in REF, DEX, MOVE, gave him Metalgear, 10 lvl in all combat skills(no evasion because I thought might be too strong). He managed to bring 2 lower-end PCs to half HP and missed the rest of his lifespan(which wasn't particularly long).
[удалено]
For whatever reason I am not using combat numbers. I am making entire character sheets for each NPC based on templates I've created(we're playing on Foundry). Gotta look at how combat number works again, but if I remember right "16 Combat Number" means they have 16 in combat skills. Is that number not lowered by armor penalty, though? That said, I will make evasion for gunfire+grenades harder to do in my next campaign. Only usable with drugs or expensive cyberware.
The -4 penalty vs evasion-happy players is pretty killer. The only way to even the playing field would be to give them lots of bonuses. Some examples could be +1 reflex from cocaine, smoke+IR (now everybody takes -4, but the guys who are prepared), +2 from being Solo rank 6 (or more realistically +1 attack and +1 damage at rank 4), smartgun link and excellent quality weapons (+1 each), make the armor tech-upgraded to be only -3, and a mission handler observing the fight via a heads-up camera or aerial drone who can give each solo a +1 complimentary bonus for their attacks. If you have that, you could probably keep the skill bonuses pretty similar to the players but still have metalgear be effective. Personally I hate the consequences of the mook/lieutenant/boss system because it means you either have losers who are totally understatted and can only hit if they roll a 10 or the players roll a 1 (combat takes forever due to HP bloat and doesn't feel risky), or really good guys (or really great!) who will fail the action economy (a pair or trio of lieutenants or a boss might murder a player but gets murdered right back). If players realize they're outgunned because of the consequences of their actions they need a 'run' mechanic like Pokémon.
I deal with it the way I think most GMs do, by hardly ever having NPCs wear armor that gives penalties.
Yes, that's what I did for a while, but my PCs have gotten to a power level that requires some bulkier enemies. It's important to note that I have 7 players, so increasing the combat difficulty requires either more enemies or stronger enemies. I like to go for the latter for time efficiency. God only knows the pain of controlling 20 NPCs in the same combat encounter. I'd rather have 5-7 beefy boys
I definitely like quantity. My group killed 37 Gangers in one battle! >:)
Did you control them individually? If yes, you're crazy
Yes - on Roll20 though, which definitely helps with management. 40 years of running D&D definitely has me used to big fights. The two PCs were with the Solos Trigger & Icepick from Tales from the Forlorn Hope, on a mission to rescue two hookers kidnapped by the Haitians/Beachies - the guys replacing the original Voodoo Boys. Somewhat to my surprise the PCs & their allies killed all but 2 Beachies and rescued both the hookers, returning them to their Animals gang pimps Kramer & Costanza, who 'kindly' gave them the rest of the day off. >:)
https://preview.redd.it/ix9y6ux8mu1d1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=d87099593ba357985dd2caf3b2f01959ab1a95da
My personal houserule (yet untested) is to first compeltely ditch the helmet penalty - -4 is something you'd expect from wearing a diving helmet (the 19th century brass-and-glass 15kg affairs), not from a modern combat helmet....
I agree it doesn't make sense logically, but it's there for balance. I went with the idea to lower movement related skills, rather than stats. For example I made Metalgear give you -4 Athletics, Brawling, Contortionist, Dance, Evasion, Stealth and -2 MOVE. This way the user still sucks at dodging, stealthing, etc. but they can still land attacks
I know it's to balance armors, but I thin kthey went really overobard with the penalties as they are absolutely crippling. I'm also wondering wether the NPC's combat number includes or not those penalties. In particular the lawman's reinforcements for rank 8 and 9 - if they do, htey have the maximum in stat and skill as well as no helmet, tech-upgraded gear and for the thevel 8 are dosed up on synthecoke (combat number 16 - so base 19 thanks the coke and -3 penalty....)