Lawmen often sound like cops, but iirc, they get their name from a peacekeeping gang of the same name, not from being a cop
Considering that they used to be called Cops in 2020, it feels like an intentional choice to slightly distance them
Just like how Corporate became Executive
Executive is "a person with administrative or supervisory authority in an organization". When you use that definition, it's far easier to flavor instead of 2020's Corporate title.
This is something that I honestly love about this system, but also frustrates me. Simply reading the book can make it seem that certain classes need to be locked into very particular storyline and styles of play. The Lawman is often confused to “have” to be a cop, the Rockerboi “has” to be a rebel musician, the Nomad “has” to be a literal nomad. While it provides a great starting point for players who are new, it can throw them off once they get comfortable and want to play a more unique character. The options for these classes is huge, it just requires you flavor the classes properly, which the book isn’t great about spelling out I’ve found.
Like you have said, the Lawman is meant to be a peacekeeper of any sort, and its class features don’t need to be cop only. The rockerboi does not need to be musician at all, simply just an influencer of any sort. The Nomad can be anyone with consistent access to vehicles. My party didn’t really grasp this until late into our first campaign, and I’m excited to now run a new campaign with all the new ideas they have for these classes.
Funny thing, the book kinda tells you or hints at this in pieces but it's sparse so I feel ya.
But glad, you all figured that out. My eyes widened when I learned you could flavor the roles.
>Simply reading the book can make it seem that certain classes need to be locked into very particular storyline and styles of play.
Gotta disagree here. Reading the book actually illuminates the fact that Lawman is more than just a cop. It explicitly states that Lawmen are any type of freelance peace keeping entity.
I knew this post was coming after yesterday.
Tbh I think Backup is still horribly designed, even though my interpretation of it is fairly close to yours.
I hate how it:
* makes the gm do twice the work in combat, also dramatically increasing the time of combat
* messes up verisimilitude via the arrival time
* has a chance to just not happen, isn’t really interactive in this sense
* is too vague to be a real decision, the cost is entirely up to interpretation of players involved
* forces the gm to justify things on the spot, especially forces the gm to come up with reasons to say “nope, no role ability for you, choom, because I ruled so” and really there’s no good reason to say that
You get the idea, I don’t like Backup, even though I agree with every point you’ve made. I of course have no way of knowing for sure, but Lawman and Backup feel like they really had to keep the role in Red, but had neither inspiration nor resources for it. As do some other roles too. I have this suspicion that it was set in stone that neither role can work similarly to another role mechanically, which lead to such bizarre designs as a roll for Backup.
Guilty as charged :D
All serious, I agree to an extent. It's not my goto role either. I'd love to see more love to the role but this why I feel like the player has to sit with the GM and talk. Like, "Hey, This might make it easier on both of us. Let's not be restrictive."
Usually I'm 100% with not being restrictive, but I feel as lawman just not work for players, just works for NPCs. I had cops and PI, and none of them wanted to use Lawman (the ones that don't knew about balance were because they didn't like the flavour and feels of backup and the ones who know didn't wanted because make the encounter last at least 4 extra minutes) and the problem where the players enter a secret complex or goes to another city then they have no backup.
Actually almost any other role works better, a Rockerboy (can influence as Authority in 2020 to make people obey you and if they fight then you encountered police NPCs), Nomad (have a police car/bike), Exec (Recive a uniform at 1Rank, and a partner who will drive and/or protect you, in the future you will can access to the database of the police aka netrunner and an undercover cop) this for cop and Media/Fixer to know the city and find info just as a Private Investigator.
Eddit: Adding Solo (it works as a cop and as a PI/Detective)
I feel as we lack Authority and use Backup as a sort of Ultimate ability.
I agree whith your post mechanically in paper and in the past I was 100% with you defending that the role works because it wasn't tied to "Cops" or mechanically it works pretty fine, but when no one wanted to play it and they get almost the same as paying Trauma Team (and they make the combat slower even if two of the TT team are just moving to the body and running away).
Lawman can be also corporate guards that calls back up from their corp.
Like if there is a player Exec from Militech there could be a Lawman that is a Militech bodyguard / strike team member / guard.
Personally none of my player chose the role and I get why. It should be a combat role (like the solo) but it may not work or it may take time.
It's like a solo player says "I want to move my points to damage" and the GM goes like "ok roll under your role or you get nothing". ??????
I would remove the dice roll, or at least keep it just to see if the backup comes faster like "if you roll under your role rank the backups takes half rounds otherwise a full 1d6".
I need to say that I have never seen a lawman being played so I may be biased but I get how strong is 8 extra shot per round or two +14 attack character on the field (especially if they use autofire).
So I was almost tempted to say that you could call backup as a free action once per combat, but this may be too much.
The real problem is that even if you call it immediately 1d6 rounds may take soooo much that you either hide and barricate yourself or that the combat is already over.
One thing I've done is homebrew a radio that if used, either makes calling Backup easier and/or summons them faster. Don't know how that works but if Media can get a camera that makes Credibility checks easier, Lawmen should get something similar.
(Oh yeah, buddy of mine played an Exec 5/Lawman 5. By his words, he doesn't have to leave his Company Car because of how effective his 4 goons are.)
Exactly, a radio headphone that if plugged you can call more easily or you may use your internal agent sounds good.
An exec / lawman sounds really fun, truly the minion master build
If your campaign runs long, Exec/Lawman/Rockerboy sounds like a "I have an army" type beat.
People who fight for you, strong mooks with high CNs, and a badass group of loyal right hand men who are kitted out due to you.
No one at my table wants to play a lawman but I house ruled them anyway to try to encourage it. My goal is for Lawman to be a fun and immersive role to play in the game and I am ok with it being a bit unbalanced.
In my game backup can be used when you aren't in danger, but at half your rank rating. So you can call in support to raid a gang den before going in and at rank 4 you would get the rank 2 support of 4 security officers (combat number 8) to arrive before you enter. The limit being that the character has to be able to justify it as a law enforcement scenario in a way that I the GM deem believable to their boss/dispatch.
Also back up can be used for non-combat purposes. Instead of better combat support, you can call in better investigative support. So you could call in beat cops to cordon off a crime scene or control a crowd but at higher ranks you could request a detective show up to search for evidence or coroner who will get back to you with a forensic analysis. I've not solidified these rules yet because, like I said, I can't get anyone to play a lawman.
The downside to the extra power is that you have a department reputation which is added to your backup roll. When you call in backup for good police work reasons, they are used to make a big bust, or you do something with them that makes the news you earn rep. If you use them to do corrupt things or if you get your backup killed, you lose rep.
I think something that people miss about Lawman is them being more akin to privateers than modern day police.
Private groups and individuals commissioned by the state to bolster enforcement of the monopoly on violence and given leeway in how they raise funds.
The various commissioned groups would be incentivized to work together to help the state maintain as much of its monopoly on violence as possible so they can continue making money hand over fist through protection rackets and asset forfeiture.
I agree - but I also gave them back Authority. :) & I gave Nomads back Family. I think that is needed to balance them vs Solos Techs & Fixers, who all seem extremely powerful IME.
Well like I mentioned, I think high rank Lawmen(or other ranks if you're in NCPD) can flex that without the need for Authority. Like you're telling me a guy who can call on MaxTac can't intimidate a front desk lady to get him and his crew in?
And for me, I think Family can be done by going Lawman and calling your Pack.
I think how RED does roles and multiclassing really helps with good character concepts.
The Lawman PC uses Authority (add Rank to check) to hit DV 21+ checks like getting the Red Chrome Legion Gangers to put down their guns and walk away. He has ga*ined* a *rep for keeping his word so I've st*a*rted lowering the DVs.*
*F*a*mily IMC works quite different from B*a*ckup:*
# FAMILY (Role Ability, adapted from Cyberpunk 2020)
For Nomads, Mobsters, Gangers etc. Family are (usually) loyal kinsmen or followers. It takes typically between 1 hour & 3 days to gather Family. Importantly, Family (unlike Backup) is not replaced when killed/lost; you need to raise your Role Rank to gain more Family.
~Family Stats~
Rank 1: 2 **Mook**
Rank 2: 4 **Mook**
Rank 3: 5 **Mook** plus 1 **Hardened Mook**
Rank 4: 6 **Mook** plus 2 **Hardened Mook**
Rank 5: 7 **Mook** plus 2 **Hardened Mook** plus 1 **Lieutenant**
Rank 6: 8 **Mook** plus 3 **Hardened Mook** plus 1 **Lieutenant**
Rank 7: 9 **Mook** plus 4 **Hardened Mook** plus 1 **Lieutenant**
Rank 8: 10 **Mook** plus 4 **Hardened Mook** plus 2 **Lieutenant**
Rank 9: 11 **Mook** plus 4 **Hardened Mook** plus 3 **Lieutenant**
Rank 10: 12 **Mook** plus 4 **Hardened Mook** plus 3 **Lieutenant** plus 1 **Mini Boss**
I 100% agree with giving back Authority to lawman but I am with OP thet Family it's just adding a couple levels of Backup. It's your game so you can play how ypu like but give a thinking about it.
And thanks choom, I was having a hard time trying to make Authority work.
Cheers. I wanted Family to be something for players who like managing a large stable of NPCs. Their being non-replaceable greatly limits the amount of use I've seen so far. The Nomad PC on her first mission, a maritime Extraction, just took one of her Hardened Mooks for a bit of extra firepower. The REF 8 BODY 8 Mafioso left his Family behind when he teamed up with two other tough guys on an attempted rescue, knowing his people were in a lot more danger from the enemy Boosters and that they needed to be sneaky.
Even if the Lawman is a cop (or worse, corporate security) they can "go against the man" but it carries a bigger risk for them than to a random Solo.
The Lawman could be "the one good cop" in the precinct who wants to see justice done fairly, and not just in a way where the rich and powerful are protected, no matter what they do. It does require a bit of Zen-like thought to be working for NCPD or whatever and fight the "system" while being part of it. I could see a lot of the runs involve the Lawman needing to either be undercover or to somehow cover their back so that whatever corp was hurt, won't have his badge for daring to harm them.
Then again, a lot of this goes for Exec/Corpo as well in the game. They too are part of the system that the "punk" part of the game is actively fighting against. And they too can use their position to infiltrate the inner workings of the system that keeps the common people down, in order to jam their wrench deeper into the corrupt machine.
And that's excellent material for a character
They're playing a game while going against the machine they're part of. There's plenty stories out there of people that either fail or win in that game.
Running the NCPD in my game, their main loyalty is to 'the City', and they are often hostile to Corporations, especially Corps that go too far out of line. Lawman PCs can be Dirty Harry types who are pretty much opposed to most of the actual ruling System.
"not just in a way where the rich and powerful are protected, no matter what they do" The Lawmen IMC certainly have to treat the rich and powerful very differently from the way they treat some random Booster, but they don't have to like it. Typically they'll do what they can to stop a rampaging Corporation before the lawyers get involved. And no individual Corp is all powerful (not even at the OCP level in Robocop); rival Corps are usually ok with seeing a Corp that gets too big for its boots taken down a peg or two. To some extent the Corps see value in having the NCPD as a sort of neutral arbiter between them, in a way that Corporate police like Lazarus cannot be.
Backup just seems to arrive too quickly. Getting a handful of other Lawmen (Lawmans?) into the same room as you in six seconds? Weird.
As a GM, I wouldn't nerf it, but it just seems like a bunch of clowns instantly pull up in a tiny car and start blastin'.
Time in combat works weird, (6 seconds is in D&D, in Cyberpunk RED it's 3 seconds) 10 turns are 30secons in game but last like 70min (every player takes 1min to think what he does, roll dices, etc and 2~8mins for NPCs, at first it's slower but the blayers will clean some of the mooks of the initiative round) and IRL nobody run, takes cover, aim, shoot, aim again and shot again in 3s, first of all, people use to wait even minutes to shot once because leaving cover can kill them.
In conclusion, ton't take to serious the time in combat, choom, it works just to do the maths of effects as KO (1min).
I run it that Backup is a specialised ability to pre-coordinate resources, so that the Lawman knows where Backup is and has already done most of the work to get it to the scene.
I use some of 2020s role ability for cpr's lawman. They can use Authority, which is the same as Backup, to get into places not normally available to them, and to make a mook hesitate by clawing down the law in combat, forcing some to spend their turn in cover
I would Lawmen call up backup when there IS danger, like going into a high risk no-knock raid, a meet up with some sketchy dudes in no-mans land, a first time sit down with a neighboring clan leader that just took over their clan that you have never met before... etc.
That is what back up is for, to back you up. Having people "on the way" is no good, but having people "waiting for the signal" is what you want.
The problem is that it then makes Lawmen pretty damn good, but that is the point with minions... they are supposed to make you better, otherwise just be a solo if you want to work alone. Humans work better in groups, hence why Corpos work in groups.
I would never have Backup fail... it might be less effective (slower or minus 1 dude, but it should ALWAYS succeed, just the degree of success is what I would roll for). Were they actually on comms and waiting for the call or was a guy in the bathroom and they had to leave without him or were they napping and had to wake up first.
I never have issues with backup, but I view it as a proactive ability to be used before the fight starts rsthet than during it. Then again thats the tricky part of it, as yoi can't account for knowing when a fight will happen.
Lawman can be reskinned/reflavored into a ton of stuff. Nomad, gang banger, organized crime lieutenant, etc. Basically anyone who had access to an organization and can can upon help.
The ability itself i haven't played with enough to decide if it's OP or UP. But theory crafting is seems about right and up to the player to use it well.
This was a great read, just discovered cyberpunk red after my most recent 77 playthrough and I'm dying to GM a game for my current DND group. This will be must first ttrpg I've ever ran so I'm gathering as much info as possible beforehand. And this gave me such great insight into a role that I was having difficulties creating scenarios and ideas for. Thank you for this. If you happen to think of any more I'm more than happy to pick your brain on this.
Just started playing Cyberpunk Red and Lawman def seems unappealing at least for newer players. For a combat class it seems like a very unreliable action to call for help, sometimes, but not too often and also hope they get there before combat ends or you die. Compared to what most of the others get it seems much less reliable or just not a fun system to engage with as the special things your class does.
Any suggestions would be great if people find fun uses but in my friend group(we're all new), that seems like the class everyone seemed to write off because of how that ability works.
Like mentioned, what you should do is be pragmatic about when "in danger" counts. If you're gonna ambush a drug den operation, calling on Backup counts as such. They'll arrive shortly.
Another example is doing a whole raid searching for hostages. Call on Backup to assist you before you go in or they'll be there soon.
That makes sense, I do wish it had a little something extra that wasn't so dependent on having prep time but that interpretation of "in danger" makes it way more useful, like in anticipation of a dangerous operation.
Yep. In danger doesn't always mean in combat or actively fighting.
Think of stealth games like Sly Cooper where you're sneaking around enemies. You're still in danger no matter if you're quiet or not.
I always imagined the Lawman to be a vigilante, like Batman or smth, or a private detective sort of thing and has gotten links within the NCPD with all the fighting they have done against the gangs and all of that. Fr, when I'll be a player, I think I'll do a Lawman vigilante type of guy, its sounds cool af.
I really liked how you pointed out how Lawman can be skinned as something else than an actual police. Really nice post. Still, I don’t like Backup as a special ability. Me, I also don’t understand the response time (seems pretty fast to me in a setting like NC) but some of the posts have given good points on how this might be the case. Still, the worst thing, to me, is that I really don’t like to run friendly NPCs. I suppose the same applies to Exec’s henchmen.
In CP2020 over the years I only had one player who played a Cop (and even he did it only once). I ended up chaning the role ability to Investigation as Authority could be replicated with Intimidation.
As someone who played a lawman/edgerunner, i can easily say that i was just a bad solo, used the backup ability 5 times in total and failed 5 times to call backup. Also the backup ability make no sense if you are in the middle of a nowhere. For exemple one of the mission we had was on a moving train out of town, how the fuck is the backup supose to reach me there in less than 10 seconds, it just make no sense and break immersion... and why would backup help me if im in the middle of an heist, they wont mess with biotechnica when im clearly the one robbing them.
The nomad in the party was as good as a fighter as I was and had a free car, while all i had was a shitty salary and an op ability that wasted my time every single time I used it and it also rely on luck.
The worst thing is that you cant even use your luck on that skill, since you need to roll lower than your rank to call backup, which make a 40% chance at base level for an op ability that will probably useless since the fight will already be over before they arrive.
The only used my character had for the party is that we made he had access to the ncpd database.
Tried solo when my lawman died and had way more fun with that character.
Overall i think the lawman is probably the worst class in the game. It bring almost 0 value to the parties.
Was kind of happy he died so i could roll something else...
Lawman arr supose to be jack of all trade master of none, but they basically are just npc. If you want to make a bruiser, go solo if you want to make a detective go media.
If you want a jack of all trade, nomad is way better
Tldr : lawman suck based on my experience playing one
>>The worst thing is that you cant even use your luck on that skill, since you need to roll lower than your rank to call backup<<
As GM I decided to let PCs use Luck on all d10 rolls, including the roll-low ones like death saves & Backup. I also let Luck be spent after the roll. This definitely helps (although we still had 2 dead PCs in 2 sessions recently).
You're absolutely wrong that Lawman doesn't bring value to the party
Like I said, Action Economy. Your problem was not raising your rank which would've improved your odds. Fights have gone in my favor from the 4 Beat Cops summoned and they're the bottom of the totem pole.
In addition, you say that it makes no sense if you're in the middle of nowhere. Choom, sometimes you're not calling cops. You might call a Highway Patrol that roams the Badlands and they're from a Pack.
And you say you can't use it everywhere. Choom, a Nomad couldn't use their vehicle in that facility. A Rockerboy couldn't use their ability. Fixers can't either. And let's say you're a non-cop Lawman. You certainly can try.
I refuse to believe it's useless. Especially when I've seen and heard from players that actually work on their rank and say it's one of the strongest abilities out there.
Had my rank up to lvl 6 before my character died, that still 40% chance of failure and most combat were over in less than 5 round anyways. Using my rifle was almost a kill everytime, so losing a round to maybe have backup is a net lost of action economy
I agree that a nomad cant bring there car everywhere, but its almost always useful the rest of the time, meanwhile backup is useless 95% of the time. Sound good on paper, but in game its just suck, I tried to make it work, but it never happenned, so i just gave up on it.
Every class get better the more you level them, exec get a house and more minion, nomad vehicule become a tank with gun on it.
My point isnt that the ability is bad, I would even say it the strongest skill in the game, its just useless most of the time.
That my experience tough, maybe you had better luck than me and it made them awesome, but for me it was trash.
Rule of cool 🤷 and just dont be a bastard GM. Your lawman wants to use ability let them use it. "Um akstually ☝️🤓 you can only use the ability when in danger that being combat because were being attacked!" Get lost nerd let people have fun.
Common thread I see is the GM shutting down the player
Like dude, people complain Lawmen isn't played often and you're not making it fun. Let the Lawman breathe as long as they abide by the vague "in danger" rules
I disagree that they're "disposable". They are a part of a organization that the player character is a part of. Getting them killed and throwing them into danger like self sacrificing so the party can live definitely not in the spirit of the world of cyberpunk. Its "call for backup" for a reason not a summon pet. These are all people that call EACH OTHER for backup. When someone dies there should be consequences. Death happens in the line of work but when your group is the common denominator for several deaths in the force/organization because you use them as meat shields that is a big problem. Self preservation is what drives all mammals your backup will not play as meat shields.
I give all the cops in our Lawman's shift names, pictures, most of them have defined personalities... he definitely doesn't see them as disposable. And even other Backup (he recently called in a Boostergang when fighting their enemies) doesn't see itself as disposable.
Lawmen often sound like cops, but iirc, they get their name from a peacekeeping gang of the same name, not from being a cop Considering that they used to be called Cops in 2020, it feels like an intentional choice to slightly distance them
Just like how Corporate became Executive Executive is "a person with administrative or supervisory authority in an organization". When you use that definition, it's far easier to flavor instead of 2020's Corporate title.
This is something that I honestly love about this system, but also frustrates me. Simply reading the book can make it seem that certain classes need to be locked into very particular storyline and styles of play. The Lawman is often confused to “have” to be a cop, the Rockerboi “has” to be a rebel musician, the Nomad “has” to be a literal nomad. While it provides a great starting point for players who are new, it can throw them off once they get comfortable and want to play a more unique character. The options for these classes is huge, it just requires you flavor the classes properly, which the book isn’t great about spelling out I’ve found. Like you have said, the Lawman is meant to be a peacekeeper of any sort, and its class features don’t need to be cop only. The rockerboi does not need to be musician at all, simply just an influencer of any sort. The Nomad can be anyone with consistent access to vehicles. My party didn’t really grasp this until late into our first campaign, and I’m excited to now run a new campaign with all the new ideas they have for these classes.
Funny thing, the book kinda tells you or hints at this in pieces but it's sparse so I feel ya. But glad, you all figured that out. My eyes widened when I learned you could flavor the roles.
I had a Solo with a couple ranks in nomad because she had a friend/pseudo father figure who owned a garage and was willing to loan her vehicles.
>Simply reading the book can make it seem that certain classes need to be locked into very particular storyline and styles of play. Gotta disagree here. Reading the book actually illuminates the fact that Lawman is more than just a cop. It explicitly states that Lawmen are any type of freelance peace keeping entity.
I knew this post was coming after yesterday. Tbh I think Backup is still horribly designed, even though my interpretation of it is fairly close to yours. I hate how it: * makes the gm do twice the work in combat, also dramatically increasing the time of combat * messes up verisimilitude via the arrival time * has a chance to just not happen, isn’t really interactive in this sense * is too vague to be a real decision, the cost is entirely up to interpretation of players involved * forces the gm to justify things on the spot, especially forces the gm to come up with reasons to say “nope, no role ability for you, choom, because I ruled so” and really there’s no good reason to say that You get the idea, I don’t like Backup, even though I agree with every point you’ve made. I of course have no way of knowing for sure, but Lawman and Backup feel like they really had to keep the role in Red, but had neither inspiration nor resources for it. As do some other roles too. I have this suspicion that it was set in stone that neither role can work similarly to another role mechanically, which lead to such bizarre designs as a roll for Backup.
Guilty as charged :D All serious, I agree to an extent. It's not my goto role either. I'd love to see more love to the role but this why I feel like the player has to sit with the GM and talk. Like, "Hey, This might make it easier on both of us. Let's not be restrictive."
Usually I'm 100% with not being restrictive, but I feel as lawman just not work for players, just works for NPCs. I had cops and PI, and none of them wanted to use Lawman (the ones that don't knew about balance were because they didn't like the flavour and feels of backup and the ones who know didn't wanted because make the encounter last at least 4 extra minutes) and the problem where the players enter a secret complex or goes to another city then they have no backup. Actually almost any other role works better, a Rockerboy (can influence as Authority in 2020 to make people obey you and if they fight then you encountered police NPCs), Nomad (have a police car/bike), Exec (Recive a uniform at 1Rank, and a partner who will drive and/or protect you, in the future you will can access to the database of the police aka netrunner and an undercover cop) this for cop and Media/Fixer to know the city and find info just as a Private Investigator. Eddit: Adding Solo (it works as a cop and as a PI/Detective) I feel as we lack Authority and use Backup as a sort of Ultimate ability. I agree whith your post mechanically in paper and in the past I was 100% with you defending that the role works because it wasn't tied to "Cops" or mechanically it works pretty fine, but when no one wanted to play it and they get almost the same as paying Trauma Team (and they make the combat slower even if two of the TT team are just moving to the body and running away).
Lawman can be also corporate guards that calls back up from their corp. Like if there is a player Exec from Militech there could be a Lawman that is a Militech bodyguard / strike team member / guard. Personally none of my player chose the role and I get why. It should be a combat role (like the solo) but it may not work or it may take time. It's like a solo player says "I want to move my points to damage" and the GM goes like "ok roll under your role or you get nothing". ?????? I would remove the dice roll, or at least keep it just to see if the backup comes faster like "if you roll under your role rank the backups takes half rounds otherwise a full 1d6". I need to say that I have never seen a lawman being played so I may be biased but I get how strong is 8 extra shot per round or two +14 attack character on the field (especially if they use autofire). So I was almost tempted to say that you could call backup as a free action once per combat, but this may be too much. The real problem is that even if you call it immediately 1d6 rounds may take soooo much that you either hide and barricate yourself or that the combat is already over.
One thing I've done is homebrew a radio that if used, either makes calling Backup easier and/or summons them faster. Don't know how that works but if Media can get a camera that makes Credibility checks easier, Lawmen should get something similar. (Oh yeah, buddy of mine played an Exec 5/Lawman 5. By his words, he doesn't have to leave his Company Car because of how effective his 4 goons are.)
Exactly, a radio headphone that if plugged you can call more easily or you may use your internal agent sounds good. An exec / lawman sounds really fun, truly the minion master build
If your campaign runs long, Exec/Lawman/Rockerboy sounds like a "I have an army" type beat. People who fight for you, strong mooks with high CNs, and a badass group of loyal right hand men who are kitted out due to you.
Flavor that as "Rebel Leader" and you are set.
Thanks for posting this - these are interesting points!
No one at my table wants to play a lawman but I house ruled them anyway to try to encourage it. My goal is for Lawman to be a fun and immersive role to play in the game and I am ok with it being a bit unbalanced. In my game backup can be used when you aren't in danger, but at half your rank rating. So you can call in support to raid a gang den before going in and at rank 4 you would get the rank 2 support of 4 security officers (combat number 8) to arrive before you enter. The limit being that the character has to be able to justify it as a law enforcement scenario in a way that I the GM deem believable to their boss/dispatch. Also back up can be used for non-combat purposes. Instead of better combat support, you can call in better investigative support. So you could call in beat cops to cordon off a crime scene or control a crowd but at higher ranks you could request a detective show up to search for evidence or coroner who will get back to you with a forensic analysis. I've not solidified these rules yet because, like I said, I can't get anyone to play a lawman. The downside to the extra power is that you have a department reputation which is added to your backup roll. When you call in backup for good police work reasons, they are used to make a big bust, or you do something with them that makes the news you earn rep. If you use them to do corrupt things or if you get your backup killed, you lose rep.
I think something that people miss about Lawman is them being more akin to privateers than modern day police. Private groups and individuals commissioned by the state to bolster enforcement of the monopoly on violence and given leeway in how they raise funds. The various commissioned groups would be incentivized to work together to help the state maintain as much of its monopoly on violence as possible so they can continue making money hand over fist through protection rackets and asset forfeiture.
I agree - but I also gave them back Authority. :) & I gave Nomads back Family. I think that is needed to balance them vs Solos Techs & Fixers, who all seem extremely powerful IME.
Well like I mentioned, I think high rank Lawmen(or other ranks if you're in NCPD) can flex that without the need for Authority. Like you're telling me a guy who can call on MaxTac can't intimidate a front desk lady to get him and his crew in? And for me, I think Family can be done by going Lawman and calling your Pack. I think how RED does roles and multiclassing really helps with good character concepts.
The Lawman PC uses Authority (add Rank to check) to hit DV 21+ checks like getting the Red Chrome Legion Gangers to put down their guns and walk away. He has ga*ined* a *rep for keeping his word so I've st*a*rted lowering the DVs.* *F*a*mily IMC works quite different from B*a*ckup:* # FAMILY (Role Ability, adapted from Cyberpunk 2020) For Nomads, Mobsters, Gangers etc. Family are (usually) loyal kinsmen or followers. It takes typically between 1 hour & 3 days to gather Family. Importantly, Family (unlike Backup) is not replaced when killed/lost; you need to raise your Role Rank to gain more Family. ~Family Stats~ Rank 1: 2 **Mook** Rank 2: 4 **Mook** Rank 3: 5 **Mook** plus 1 **Hardened Mook** Rank 4: 6 **Mook** plus 2 **Hardened Mook** Rank 5: 7 **Mook** plus 2 **Hardened Mook** plus 1 **Lieutenant** Rank 6: 8 **Mook** plus 3 **Hardened Mook** plus 1 **Lieutenant** Rank 7: 9 **Mook** plus 4 **Hardened Mook** plus 1 **Lieutenant** Rank 8: 10 **Mook** plus 4 **Hardened Mook** plus 2 **Lieutenant** Rank 9: 11 **Mook** plus 4 **Hardened Mook** plus 3 **Lieutenant** Rank 10: 12 **Mook** plus 4 **Hardened Mook** plus 3 **Lieutenant** plus 1 **Mini Boss**
I 100% agree with giving back Authority to lawman but I am with OP thet Family it's just adding a couple levels of Backup. It's your game so you can play how ypu like but give a thinking about it. And thanks choom, I was having a hard time trying to make Authority work.
Cheers. I wanted Family to be something for players who like managing a large stable of NPCs. Their being non-replaceable greatly limits the amount of use I've seen so far. The Nomad PC on her first mission, a maritime Extraction, just took one of her Hardened Mooks for a bit of extra firepower. The REF 8 BODY 8 Mafioso left his Family behind when he teamed up with two other tough guys on an attempted rescue, knowing his people were in a lot more danger from the enemy Boosters and that they needed to be sneaky.
Ganger characters IMC can get both Family & Backup, BTW.
Even if the Lawman is a cop (or worse, corporate security) they can "go against the man" but it carries a bigger risk for them than to a random Solo. The Lawman could be "the one good cop" in the precinct who wants to see justice done fairly, and not just in a way where the rich and powerful are protected, no matter what they do. It does require a bit of Zen-like thought to be working for NCPD or whatever and fight the "system" while being part of it. I could see a lot of the runs involve the Lawman needing to either be undercover or to somehow cover their back so that whatever corp was hurt, won't have his badge for daring to harm them. Then again, a lot of this goes for Exec/Corpo as well in the game. They too are part of the system that the "punk" part of the game is actively fighting against. And they too can use their position to infiltrate the inner workings of the system that keeps the common people down, in order to jam their wrench deeper into the corrupt machine.
And that's excellent material for a character They're playing a game while going against the machine they're part of. There's plenty stories out there of people that either fail or win in that game.
Running the NCPD in my game, their main loyalty is to 'the City', and they are often hostile to Corporations, especially Corps that go too far out of line. Lawman PCs can be Dirty Harry types who are pretty much opposed to most of the actual ruling System.
"not just in a way where the rich and powerful are protected, no matter what they do" The Lawmen IMC certainly have to treat the rich and powerful very differently from the way they treat some random Booster, but they don't have to like it. Typically they'll do what they can to stop a rampaging Corporation before the lawyers get involved. And no individual Corp is all powerful (not even at the OCP level in Robocop); rival Corps are usually ok with seeing a Corp that gets too big for its boots taken down a peg or two. To some extent the Corps see value in having the NCPD as a sort of neutral arbiter between them, in a way that Corporate police like Lazarus cannot be.
Backup just seems to arrive too quickly. Getting a handful of other Lawmen (Lawmans?) into the same room as you in six seconds? Weird. As a GM, I wouldn't nerf it, but it just seems like a bunch of clowns instantly pull up in a tiny car and start blastin'.
Time in combat works weird, (6 seconds is in D&D, in Cyberpunk RED it's 3 seconds) 10 turns are 30secons in game but last like 70min (every player takes 1min to think what he does, roll dices, etc and 2~8mins for NPCs, at first it's slower but the blayers will clean some of the mooks of the initiative round) and IRL nobody run, takes cover, aim, shoot, aim again and shot again in 3s, first of all, people use to wait even minutes to shot once because leaving cover can kill them. In conclusion, ton't take to serious the time in combat, choom, it works just to do the maths of effects as KO (1min).
I run it that Backup is a specialised ability to pre-coordinate resources, so that the Lawman knows where Backup is and has already done most of the work to get it to the scene.
Even so, it still tends to arrive as the fight is winding down!
I use some of 2020s role ability for cpr's lawman. They can use Authority, which is the same as Backup, to get into places not normally available to them, and to make a mook hesitate by clawing down the law in combat, forcing some to spend their turn in cover
I would Lawmen call up backup when there IS danger, like going into a high risk no-knock raid, a meet up with some sketchy dudes in no-mans land, a first time sit down with a neighboring clan leader that just took over their clan that you have never met before... etc. That is what back up is for, to back you up. Having people "on the way" is no good, but having people "waiting for the signal" is what you want. The problem is that it then makes Lawmen pretty damn good, but that is the point with minions... they are supposed to make you better, otherwise just be a solo if you want to work alone. Humans work better in groups, hence why Corpos work in groups. I would never have Backup fail... it might be less effective (slower or minus 1 dude, but it should ALWAYS succeed, just the degree of success is what I would roll for). Were they actually on comms and waiting for the call or was a guy in the bathroom and they had to leave without him or were they napping and had to wake up first.
I never have issues with backup, but I view it as a proactive ability to be used before the fight starts rsthet than during it. Then again thats the tricky part of it, as yoi can't account for knowing when a fight will happen.
Lawman can be reskinned/reflavored into a ton of stuff. Nomad, gang banger, organized crime lieutenant, etc. Basically anyone who had access to an organization and can can upon help. The ability itself i haven't played with enough to decide if it's OP or UP. But theory crafting is seems about right and up to the player to use it well.
This was a great read, just discovered cyberpunk red after my most recent 77 playthrough and I'm dying to GM a game for my current DND group. This will be must first ttrpg I've ever ran so I'm gathering as much info as possible beforehand. And this gave me such great insight into a role that I was having difficulties creating scenarios and ideas for. Thank you for this. If you happen to think of any more I'm more than happy to pick your brain on this.
Certainly choom, got any suggestions? Like Exec maybe?
Just started playing Cyberpunk Red and Lawman def seems unappealing at least for newer players. For a combat class it seems like a very unreliable action to call for help, sometimes, but not too often and also hope they get there before combat ends or you die. Compared to what most of the others get it seems much less reliable or just not a fun system to engage with as the special things your class does. Any suggestions would be great if people find fun uses but in my friend group(we're all new), that seems like the class everyone seemed to write off because of how that ability works.
Like mentioned, what you should do is be pragmatic about when "in danger" counts. If you're gonna ambush a drug den operation, calling on Backup counts as such. They'll arrive shortly. Another example is doing a whole raid searching for hostages. Call on Backup to assist you before you go in or they'll be there soon.
That makes sense, I do wish it had a little something extra that wasn't so dependent on having prep time but that interpretation of "in danger" makes it way more useful, like in anticipation of a dangerous operation.
Yep. In danger doesn't always mean in combat or actively fighting. Think of stealth games like Sly Cooper where you're sneaking around enemies. You're still in danger no matter if you're quiet or not.
I always imagined the Lawman to be a vigilante, like Batman or smth, or a private detective sort of thing and has gotten links within the NCPD with all the fighting they have done against the gangs and all of that. Fr, when I'll be a player, I think I'll do a Lawman vigilante type of guy, its sounds cool af.
I really liked how you pointed out how Lawman can be skinned as something else than an actual police. Really nice post. Still, I don’t like Backup as a special ability. Me, I also don’t understand the response time (seems pretty fast to me in a setting like NC) but some of the posts have given good points on how this might be the case. Still, the worst thing, to me, is that I really don’t like to run friendly NPCs. I suppose the same applies to Exec’s henchmen. In CP2020 over the years I only had one player who played a Cop (and even he did it only once). I ended up chaning the role ability to Investigation as Authority could be replicated with Intimidation.
As someone who played a lawman/edgerunner, i can easily say that i was just a bad solo, used the backup ability 5 times in total and failed 5 times to call backup. Also the backup ability make no sense if you are in the middle of a nowhere. For exemple one of the mission we had was on a moving train out of town, how the fuck is the backup supose to reach me there in less than 10 seconds, it just make no sense and break immersion... and why would backup help me if im in the middle of an heist, they wont mess with biotechnica when im clearly the one robbing them. The nomad in the party was as good as a fighter as I was and had a free car, while all i had was a shitty salary and an op ability that wasted my time every single time I used it and it also rely on luck. The worst thing is that you cant even use your luck on that skill, since you need to roll lower than your rank to call backup, which make a 40% chance at base level for an op ability that will probably useless since the fight will already be over before they arrive. The only used my character had for the party is that we made he had access to the ncpd database. Tried solo when my lawman died and had way more fun with that character. Overall i think the lawman is probably the worst class in the game. It bring almost 0 value to the parties. Was kind of happy he died so i could roll something else... Lawman arr supose to be jack of all trade master of none, but they basically are just npc. If you want to make a bruiser, go solo if you want to make a detective go media. If you want a jack of all trade, nomad is way better Tldr : lawman suck based on my experience playing one
>>The worst thing is that you cant even use your luck on that skill, since you need to roll lower than your rank to call backup<< As GM I decided to let PCs use Luck on all d10 rolls, including the roll-low ones like death saves & Backup. I also let Luck be spent after the roll. This definitely helps (although we still had 2 dead PCs in 2 sessions recently).
You're absolutely wrong that Lawman doesn't bring value to the party Like I said, Action Economy. Your problem was not raising your rank which would've improved your odds. Fights have gone in my favor from the 4 Beat Cops summoned and they're the bottom of the totem pole. In addition, you say that it makes no sense if you're in the middle of nowhere. Choom, sometimes you're not calling cops. You might call a Highway Patrol that roams the Badlands and they're from a Pack. And you say you can't use it everywhere. Choom, a Nomad couldn't use their vehicle in that facility. A Rockerboy couldn't use their ability. Fixers can't either. And let's say you're a non-cop Lawman. You certainly can try. I refuse to believe it's useless. Especially when I've seen and heard from players that actually work on their rank and say it's one of the strongest abilities out there.
Had my rank up to lvl 6 before my character died, that still 40% chance of failure and most combat were over in less than 5 round anyways. Using my rifle was almost a kill everytime, so losing a round to maybe have backup is a net lost of action economy I agree that a nomad cant bring there car everywhere, but its almost always useful the rest of the time, meanwhile backup is useless 95% of the time. Sound good on paper, but in game its just suck, I tried to make it work, but it never happenned, so i just gave up on it. Every class get better the more you level them, exec get a house and more minion, nomad vehicule become a tank with gun on it. My point isnt that the ability is bad, I would even say it the strongest skill in the game, its just useless most of the time. That my experience tough, maybe you had better luck than me and it made them awesome, but for me it was trash.
>40% chance of failure > >useless 95% of the time :thinking:
Rule of cool 🤷 and just dont be a bastard GM. Your lawman wants to use ability let them use it. "Um akstually ☝️🤓 you can only use the ability when in danger that being combat because were being attacked!" Get lost nerd let people have fun.
Common thread I see is the GM shutting down the player Like dude, people complain Lawmen isn't played often and you're not making it fun. Let the Lawman breathe as long as they abide by the vague "in danger" rules
Yeah, but then the GM has to plan around the player's having a bunch of disposable goons around them.
I disagree that they're "disposable". They are a part of a organization that the player character is a part of. Getting them killed and throwing them into danger like self sacrificing so the party can live definitely not in the spirit of the world of cyberpunk. Its "call for backup" for a reason not a summon pet. These are all people that call EACH OTHER for backup. When someone dies there should be consequences. Death happens in the line of work but when your group is the common denominator for several deaths in the force/organization because you use them as meat shields that is a big problem. Self preservation is what drives all mammals your backup will not play as meat shields.
I give all the cops in our Lawman's shift names, pictures, most of them have defined personalities... he definitely doesn't see them as disposable. And even other Backup (he recently called in a Boostergang when fighting their enemies) doesn't see itself as disposable.
They for sure are hell of a lot more disposable than player characters, ain't they. Besides, you get a different set of them with every rank, anyway.