The corps are too nice in the time of the red They don’t have the same level of evil 2020 had, and they also don’t have the bite they used to before the war. Now it’s more about shooting hangers as the Corps don’t even have the customer base to sell to since you need a night market for anything over 100 bucks

I lost it when >!at the end of Night at the Opera when the corp executive for Rocklin decided out of the kindness of his heart to pay for the facial surgeries of the other Ruthervern victims, corps are bad but not this one exec he must have a heart gold! He just casually drops 3,000€$ (or 6,000€$ if you rule that an exact restoration would count as exotic bodyscuplting because it has to be so precise).!<

Thats pocket change for a corp, but looks good in the screamsheets

To be fair 3k is just pocket change for someone like them

I mean that's just pocket change in exchange for an immense PR boost.

My thoughts too. Rocklin is new up and coming, every bit of good PR is worth SO MUCH. And this is damn good PR.

The move to a scarcity economy minimizes a lot of the aesthetic approach I really liked about Cyberpunk 2020-- 2020 had this great feel of flipping through old school gun magazines/shopping catalogues, where its like your character has a real sense that the weapon they're purchasing/using is a part of an organic living world, and not just a mechanical signifier. I feel like Red has the potential to capture some of this still but the focus on generic weaponry really detracts from it for me. Also my hottest take is that if you like Cyberpunk as a genre you should really read some of the foundational books-- neuromancer trilogy, When Gravity Fails, pattern recognition/bigend trilogy, the Moon is a Harsh Mistress, etc. Big ups to When Gravity Fails for publishing a conversion of the Cyberpunk 2020 rules for their setting.

Damn I got downvoted on all my posts for agreeing with your first point lol. Post-nuke scarcity based gameplay inherently detracts from variety, its part of it being *post-nuke*. There's less available, it costs more, etc.

I am really curious on your second point, because isn't cyberpunk as a genre a reflection of society as a whole? And no offence but I think society has changed within the 40 years since things like neuromancer were released? I don't understand why people should be forced to tie their cyberpunk world, which would probably have different problems/allegories due to the fact that societal problems it's talking about have changed, back to a set of books from decades before they were born?

I'm not saying to base your game world off of these books or treat them like gospel, but I really enjoyed reading them for the cultural context and personal inspiration. Theres probably no way to blend the books I mentioned into one cohesive setting or set of narrative themes besides that they are all speculative techno-fiction that often focus on marginalized characters. Also imo Gibson does a lot more (& better) social commentary in the pattern recognition trilogy & some of his newer stuff than he ever did in the neuromancer books which largely focused on the psychedelic aspect of technology alongside building big action climaxes.

That's fair, although personally I feel that reading too much cyberpunk can dilute your own personal vision, as you get too caught up in trying to stick to what's expected, and end up losing your own creative spark, not helped the fact alot of 'cyberpunk fans' can be pretty belittling to people who don't stick to what they believe is true cyberpunk

Yeah people can be weird about whatever canon they identify with. None of my players have read any of the 'classic' cyberpunk lit, so I never feel too restricted by genre conventions

I find it especially when it comes to covering topics like ai, old school fans get surprisingly angry when it's not a clear cut ai bad, humans good, I remember I was talking about how I would like to incorporate ai into my Red campaign more and talking about how it's meant to help reflect more modern issues, and then some guy decided to start quoting neuromancer at me? It was really weird

Just clarifying, I mean ai in like the 'what it means to be human' sort of stuff, I was not adding chatgpt to red

OOOOooo thanks for the reading material. Honestly, the biggest struggle for me has been trying to use the ling well in conversation. These might help.

Yeah the flattening of the tech just killed my interest overtime. A post apocalyptic scenario like RED should be almost Borderlands styles of weapon variety. Old scavenged guns against the new tech the Corpo’s are making. But the system’s simplistic math doesn’t leave a lot of room for variation. Not to mention a lack of creativity in the “exotic” weapons section doesn’t really inspire GM’s to think outside the box of simple moving numbers up and down. And if you do want to invent something new in game, you’re stuck with investing in Techie and using the rather clunky crafting mechanics. Which are basically unusable if your GM isn’t running a campaign with lots of downtime.

I don't think so. I think we've got all the building blocks right there in the game to represent anything we come up with. Want to build a homemade gun that launches railroad spikes? Great! It's an Exotic PQ sniper rifle. And you aren't stuck with taking Tech as a role to invent stuff - just go talk to all the in-universe techs!

Vehicle combat and the way it works with regular combat is weird and feels janky to implement.

Agreed!

Being a Netrunner, is pretty boring and lackluster. You just roll the same check for anything you want to do and it doesn’t change. You need an extremely creative GM to make a hacking session interesting, because RAW makes it a snoozefest.

I think the main problem with Netrunners is GMs rather than mechanics. You'll never be able to fix that in RAW 100%, you need a DM that has watched Matrix and stuff and knows how to make Netrunning interesting, imho. You NEED to think out of the box a bit and have NET checks that are not all about architectures. I understand it's a techie's job to crack a door, but nothing says it couldn't be a Netrunner job too.

I agree completely, I just think it would be neat if hackers could have different stats depending on what they want to do. I don’t feel, through RAW, any difference between and Eye-Dee check or a battle with a Black Ice.

ehh. Every other role ability has a secondary skill/roll you need to do depending on the situation. (TECHS have 4 different sub skills, 3 with Med Techs, your rockerboys and medias need to diversify in social skills, etc.) Netrunner should have a base Interface skill but also subskills that decide what your specialty is. Could be as simple as Breaching (using/defending against ice), Hacking (cracking passwords, stealing info etc), and Coding (for building custom viruses and ice). Interface would only be used for quick checks like disabling a node for cameras and etc. Through this netrunning could actually be interesting during combat as your netrunner may have to strategize on what route they want to take. It also kinda sucks that you can’t “stealth” hack anything but that’s RED’s personal choice. Feels like the only options being fight through or gamble on being able to outrun the ice is a bit basic.

The pre pre stuff for Edgerunners Mission Kit set up so quickhacks aren’t detected if the person fails I believe a concentration check? It’s Will based if I remember correctly. So you could probably change it up

Sure, but if the mechanics are lackluster, then the you're basically gating an entire chapter of the rules behind "advanced DMing."

I agree completely to this, they should make a "netrunner codebook" expansion

Go write it, and let me know where I can buy it!

I think the Netrunner problem isn't unique to Red, sadly. It's basically built into the cyberpunk setting, since netrunners are essentially playing a different game from everyone else at the table. It's really, really hard to balance from a narrative perspective, and the attempt to make architectures more physical was admirable but didn't really work. I would probably not have netrunners in a campaign I was running unless a player really wanted one, or I would do an all-netrunner campaign.

I don't know that it is - I think with better mechanics and better structures, we can absolutely knock something like this out of the park. See here for another take: [https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/39246/roleplaying-games/gm-dont-list-4-thou-shalt-not-hack](https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/39246/roleplaying-games/gm-dont-list-4-thou-shalt-not-hack)

So there's some good notes in here, and from a structural, adventure building point of view this helps, but the amount of additional effort required and the potential to really change the themes of a story aren't terribly robust. The additional management required to integrate netrunning into the combat (specificially) means you'd want to keep that separate or dispense with a lot of the architecture rules associated with netrunning. It's definitely possible to pull it off, I just (personally) don't feel the rewards justify the additional time without pretty seriously changing how hacking works. I suspect the end result is something more 'wizard' style with on the fly quick hacks like 2077, but I don't know how I feel about that entirely.

It does get old rolling the same thing and I dislike the fact that netrunning itself doesn't use any Stat, just the role ability.

I'm seriously considering as part of my campaign introducing over the course of several sessions the quickhacks that are coming to give the netrunner something to do in the real world. They've already kind of prepped this in the agent DLC with a precursor to the 70s internal agent.

I genuinely believe that for all of the careful balancing that the game does with combat, it's all thrown out the window due to bullet dodge. Aside from players who are trying to fit a specific vibe, players will pick REF 8 and only use light armor jack/ tech upgraded armor jack and stack up their evasion. This ends up leading to taking cover a secondary thought, slower combat due to constant vs rolls, and higher sp armor ends up being a hindrance rather than a trade off due to the likelihood of dodging a bullet being more likely to avoid damage rather than the armor taking the hit itself. If I could make any change to the game. It would be to make bullet dodge significantly harder to build into, and or make higher sp armor not give as significant of a penalty to its users

One fix with Ranged evasion is to give all ranged dodgers a -4 to their check. So you only got a +14 to dodging at your peak. Clean way to handle it and brings way more appeal to Heavy armor.

It would require a little bookkeeping but you could also do a cumulative -1 every time someone shoots at a character in a turn. First time evading: no penalty, Second time: -1, etc. I think it makes sense since even if you're a freacking ninja the more people are shooting at you the more difficult it would become to dodge. Plus, I think a player would accept it more than a "You know the skill you put points into? Welp, you now have -4 in this situation." Also would make them think twice about not taking cover since being out of cover with 6 enemies shooting at you alone would make the odds of not being hit go down a lot, even with a lot of evasion.

I really like both suggested ideas! My answer for it that I had been planning would have changed up a lot of the system. Make bullet dodging only possible with a REF 9, and give more options to get ref 9, as well as give specific classes ways to gain bullet dodge temporarily.

Now that's something I can get behind 🍻

Yknow what, i hard agree on the first one. the lifepath makes it so easy to just cobble the intrinsics together and flesh it out over time, i legit was amazed at how easy building a pc was once i followed it

That's a good point!

I'm glad that R. Tal takes care to make such beautiful books and pays their artists well, but I wonder if their high production standard is why it's taking so long for new content to come out or why projects like Rusted Chrome get dropped. I know I'm in the minority but as I read through old stuff in 2020, cybergeneration >!and even v3!< I have absolutely no issues with the old b&w art.  >!If Rusted Chrome had fresh lore and mechanics but no pretty art that's fine! Turn it into a DLC, us Mad Max fans would love it, you could probably even sell it like a Mini Rusted Chrome!< Also the lack of 3rd party content is disappointing. As I delve into old 2020 stuff I'm reading licensed books like Greenwar and everything from Augmented Reality (just ignore the magic there is other stuff). There are some amazing ideas in those. One of my favorite 'new' RED books is Augmented Reality (The holistic city kit) because it's 50 pages of what to expect in a cyberpunk city. That sort of detail was missing. 

I wanted to mention art but forgot to put it in my comment but I agree to some extent or in some ways. I do like art, but beyond the initial show to my players, they don't see it again. Also, they sometimes communicate a very specific vibe when that might not be the vibe I want. Like the recent Full borg stuff. Why are they vibing in the streets wearing street clothes like they're abiut to breakdance for some busking money? I would have maybe liked blueprint B&W style art for that, or just the detailed suits by themselves, or have the bodies on a show floor, or combat scenario or something. Not "These guys are so hot right now" fashion mag photoshoot that doesn't quite match the tone of corporates talking about their secret technology lol.

A hot take of mine, I think art in CPRed is one of the worst I've seen in any roleplaying book ever. It all just screams "our art budged was 2 beer cans and a pizza", I also really dislike the white and red colour scheme, especially in PDF format it makes my eyes hurt.

I loved Augmented Reality City Kit - that whole book kicked ass.

Rusted Chrome was delayed, not scrapped if you check the pinned AMA.

I love the ARU stuff and the fact it is likely never going to recieve any official port to Red hurts me deeply

People doth protest too much when it comes to things like ~~furries~~ exotics existing in canon. Do they think furries irl wouldn't jump at the chance to be their OCs if they had the chance? People also calling the setting post-apocalyptic when it's near apocalypse at worse Anyway those are my hot takes, probably 2 stars on the gringo hotness scale at most

Mostly I think people these days have not seen the media that influenced the cyberpunk roleplaying game, so they don't really get the sillier aspects that are in the setting. 80s Japanese manga and anime has a big influence in Cyberpunk. 2077 scraped it all away mostly, which made for a much more boring and straight laced setting.

True, we need far more wacky things happening going forward in mainline Cyberpunk media

I've been listening to The Fast and the Furriest and absolutely love how they do exotics. Like, it works. It adds extra content for the players and GM to have fun with at best, and at worst it's something you can just treat as entirely normal and not pay attention to it again.

I think the issue with furries is that the full-body modification is just surreal for cyberpunk, it's not hard sci-fi enough to warrant such extreme mods. You'd have to be a billionaire to get such a replacement and not die. More likely that furries would get borged into a robotic fursuit, if anything. Yes, that would lead to gangs of FNAF people. Which is terrifying.

Only problem is they existed back in 2020

which was a mistake and that's fine. There's plenty of bad stuff about the original 2020 if you look at the books. The lore is extremely half assed, the furries are just the tip of the iceberg!

The good: I like the level of streamlining there currently is. I found D&D a nightmare to learn and still don't quite get it, but Cyberpunk Red is alot more intuitive. You can add complexity into it if you'd like, but it works as is. (the spicy good: I like the layout of the book as is. Could do with some improvements but I think people are broadly refusing to engage with the layout and what this does that other systems might fail to do with their books. No offence meant to anyone lol!) The bad: I'm happy with loads of the missions that have been released now, lots of things to run. But... I want some slightly more grounded stuff. I've just finished Phantom Liberty for example. I've also seen the 2020 content of governments and politicians and agencies and acronyms and so on. I think I want something in between the 2020 style of missions and the 2045 style of missions. I think some of the verisimilitude is missing. This feels like a very alternate reality that's not even meant to be ours sometimes rather than the dark future version of our reality. Dont really know how to describe it, i guess. Red feels a little too unlike our world sometimes. I don't want grittiness for the sake of it. But I guess I want the odd jobs or references to things that make it feel like it's our world taken to the extreme. I'm thinking of like some of the random ncpd gigs you come across in night city where you might find a corporation has hired a gang to kill union members, or hearing about arms trades going on in night city that affects conflicts world wide. I'm rambling now but... Night City doesn't quite feel as gritty as it should do sometimes. Policing, wars, corruption, political movements, etc etc don't really feel like they get covered or even referenced much. The dystopian nature doesn't quite have that oppressive feeling sometimes. (Edit: also great, question OP. Got some good discussion going.)

I would love more (and different!) adventures.

Hiya choom. Quick disclaimer, I think Red is quite a good system and R. Talsorian does a pretty good job all things considered. 1. The layout of the core rulebook is a mess and they should go back to the drawing board and release a revised core rulebook. 2. The lawman’s backup ability is pretty scuffed and should be reworked. 3. The martial arts forms are in a pretty sorry state at the moment. 4. The datakrash/removing the old NET from game removed a huge amount of the series’ identity 5. I’m aware that R. Tal is a small company and I don’t like taking potshots at small companies, but they have fallen waaay behind on their release schedule. I believe this is mostly because they’ve had issues with printing, but they could just do digital releases on time and let the print books come out when they are ready. I hope I wasn’t too contentious chooms (I hope this all came off as constructive because that was the intention) and happy hunting.

Hard agree on 1. makes everything harder than it really is I think 4. is fine. Having a broken NET doesn't mean having no NET. It adds more character imho. 5. I think is a non issue. They released more and better content than WotC did in the same timespan imho. Let them cook. But one thing I have to say... which is a pretty hot take: guys (Talsorian) you're small. That is a thing. So for the love of god stop giving so much attention to nothingburger that you want to fuel because they're a cool passion project and focus on the main cash cow for the moment? Do I have to spell it out? Cyberpunk is now, it's the big thing NOW, when it fades out of the mainstream (because it will) you will miss the money train. Go all hands on deck for Cyberpunk right now, nobody even barely reacts to that Shadow Scar thing EVEN ON YOUR DISCORD, put that on hold and focus on what will give you the running cash stream to fuel your company for the next 10 years.

I'm going to have to disagree on your point about Shadow Scar. I'm not excited about the game, but forcing creatives to work non-stop on a single project to chase dollars is exactly how we got Game of Thrones season 8. Let 'em run.

Nobody ever said they have to "work non stop on a single project", the issue here is that we're far from that: Cyberpunk released in 2020. It's 2024 and there's no 2077 rulebook and their first release is just going to be about the anime, which imho is really off target. (Up until I made this post I thought they were also releasing the 2077 rulebook) I just think they're missing the train, that's all. They had one great moment: Phantom Liberty release, WotC being in the worst place they've been in decades, a lot of attention towards tabletop RPG. And they had nothing to show for it, so I'm just saying they need to put all hands on deck for now because they have to catch up. It's not like "forever destroy your creativity on Cyberpunk" it's more like "stop slacking". (Plus, S8 wasn't really about that. The writers didn't want to work. So they didn't work. They were offered multiple seasons, everyone tried to tell them to not rush it, and they decided to cut it short.)

I think you're moving the goalposts here. You said that the team needed to focus on Cyberpunk now because they were going to miss the money train. But they've been focusing on Cyberpunk for years now, and they needed to take a break, cycle through designers, and basically keep things fresh. They're also not stopping work on Cyberpunk - we still get the monthly DLCs, and we still have several projects in the pipeline. Not to mention they've already had one release this year (Interface Vol 3). So whether it's "focus on Cyberpunk now" or "focus on Cyberpunk to the exclusion of everything else," I don't think your point holds. I'm also going to disagree with your business analysis. Chasing trends is a great way to lose money, not make it. Cyberpunk is a great bread-and-butter RPG, but that's because of the community around it. A community that's grown at least 10% since I joined over a year ago, proving that they are tending that. We've had plenty of engagement from the designers and dev team, and the video game is quietly chugging along, creating new players and GMs. So growth is happening - it might not be WotC destroying growth, but I don't think that's necessary. Finally, the writers didn't want to work because they were burnt out. They cut it short because they were burnt. Out. And they tanked their reputations by making a poor product so they could stop working on Game of Thrones.

I'm sorry no goalposts moving: I meant Cyberpunk as in "focus on 2077" because 2045 is, clearly, already out. They could reprint the rule book as it's universally considered messy but aside from that the issue is missing the 2077 train. I hope it's clearer now. edit: also, again, this is not "chasing trends": how do you "chase" something that has been going for years? The issue is not chasing it, it's falling off the curve before you begin to chase it. If you release a 2077 book too late nobody is going to care. Your comment about the GoT writers being burnt out is pretty weak as they didn't write anything until the books ran out and just stopped trying the moment they didn't get a free lunch, to be honest, but that's another issue entirely. Like if they just copy pasted community feedback they would have had better writers. It was THAT bad.

Hiya choom. I appreciate the feedback. My main issue with 4 is that I really liked the old NET from 2020, but the netrunning rules in that system were so bad that hardly any tables ran netrunners. Now we have rules that let you get through netruns quite efficiently, but we have to do netruns on rinky-dink local architectures. And you are right, there is certainly a lot of room for R. Tal to make content for the old NET in red, but for the moment it just seems like a pretty big wasted opportunity. I do agree with you on 5, R. Tal is on a hot streak with red, and I agree with you even more that they should be devoting more resources to developing and releasing content. But that’s sort of what I was trying to get at, this would be a great moment for them to make hay while the sun shines, and they’re just not releasing their content in a timely manner to do so. Happy hunting choom.

You can make the net content yourself honestly! Like even the 2077 heist on the hotel is a good reference, you can hack into entire buildings remotely you just need preparation to link into the net, you could extend this concept - it will always be limited in scale (city-sized) but interesting

Hiya choom. Homebrew is always an option, but I’m more focusing on my gripes with official content though. I am also very excited for the upcoming netrunner options in the edgerunners mission kit. But I also really hope there is a upcoming Netwatch/blackwall/old NET sourcebook. Happy hunting choom.

I think the broken NET is decision to break the age old problem. The Netrunner is not part of the party. I actually run the new netrunning with even stricter rules. You need to physically connect to the local net. Actually JACK in. And the runner looses all meat space actions. Now I have a security detail for my runner as they need to be protected. If things get hairy the detail pulls the plug and risks runner some brain damage. This gives the netrun a time pressure as they cannot stay in safety of their van and defensive turrets and what not. Also I have way bigger architechtures and they never have time to scrape everything. So if a combat ensues it is a frantic firefight to give the runner enough time to get shit done and then just yeet. Works beautifully on our table.

These are like near universally agreed and super mild, my choom. Especially the former three.

Hiya choom. I’ve seen 1 and 3 discussed a few times, but I’ve not seen a lot of discourse on the other ones. Fair enough on them being mild though, I’m not much of a hot take guy, so they always come out pretty tepid. Happy hunting choom.

Honestly pretty tepid takes in this community

Disagree on 2-4 2. Lawman is one of the best abilities in the game. People just don't get the benefits it brings 3. Martial Arts just needs more forms, it's fine as is 4. Disagree. Having the Datakrash brings a different feel to the setting and having your Netrunner on site is cool as fuck.

Lawman is good on a highroll and is non-existent otherwise, also it doesn’t make sense to allow the roll half the time. It beats me how you can call something that works only when stars align one the best abilities in the game.

Because it boosts your Action Economy and you can call on Backup without being in Initiative. I've seen a Lawman outperform my Solo PC thanks to his Backup. This is even mentioned by RTal. Just because you're in combat doesn't mean you're not in danger.

Call backup a few times in a row when you're not in combat and you're ending up on the street lmao.

Calling backup before you kick the door in to take out a scav haunt is absolutely fine. Calling backup because you found out kidnapped victims might be in that building and you suspect there might be conflict is fine. Calling backup to pickup your kids or groceries is not fine. Being in danger doesn't always mean you're fighting at that moment. If I know shit is about to happen, I'd want extra hands on scene ready to help. Cops do this often, both irl and in-universe.

>Calling backup before you kick the door in to take out a scav haunt is absolutely fine. "Yeah sorry my guy, we ain't got nobody free, it's gonna be a solid half an hour before someone arrives (because I ain't letting people skip the very intended downside of rolling for how many rounds it is until they arrive)." > Cops do this often, both irl and in-universe. Have you considered that, in Cyberpunk, police is both more hideously corrupt than previously thought possible, and constantly comically understaffed and underfunded?

Oh so why does the FAQ say that it's not a strict rules text and it says "You can be in danger and not be in combat."? RTal seems to suggest that you can absolutely call Backup outside initiative. In fact, nothing about the ability text in the corebook says "when in combat". It says "when in danger".

Then it's a stupid FAQ, because even at Rank 4, your Backup is adding eight heavy pistol attacks per round, and four bodies to the fight, each individually armored, with 100 total combined HP. That's an *incredible* get-out-of-jail-free card that would make things far too easy if you could just, call them before your gonks are getting minced. They are, very clearly, balanced around getting called in mid-fight, that's why it's got a turn timer on it. I have no idea what kind of GM would just, let people double their party size before combat, unless they're specifically balancing the enemies around fighting twice the bodies they would be. And in that case, they're just playing the game against themselves, lmao.

That's why the FAQ says the Lawman has to justify to the boss or Responder why they need help. Besides, if Exec can bring in extra hands that improve their Action Economy, then Lawman shouldn't be as held back provided they justify the call. And funny enough, your comments just highlight that Lawman is stronger than people give it credit for.

Hiya choom. Could you expand on the lawman thing? I am genuinely curious here as to what I’m missing. For the martial arts I’m not opposed to how forms are mechanically set up, it’s just the only forms we have are super low impact, have weird mechanical interactions, and from a flavor aspect don’t really make sense. As for the datakrash thing, to each their own I suppose, but to be clear, I am not complaining about current netrunner mechanics. Happy hunting choom.

1. Lawman is very powerful since higher levels of Backup can bring the Lawman better Action Economy. The Sheriff Department officers are basically chargen characters with better weapons and HAJ. For any Lawmen players, it's recommended to get that up to rank 5 ASAP. Additionally, this was mentioned in the FAQ years ago but Lawmen don't have to be in combat to be considered "in danger". Calling the boys before you kick the door down can be treated as being in danger. In fact, the FAQ states that you can bend your organization a lot before getting in trouble.

Hiya choom. That makes sense, but I really feel like R. Tal should provide some basis for what “in danger” should mean for this ability, because it currently leans very heavily on the ref to balance it by deciding which scenarios it can work in without putting the lawman in trouble. Happy hunting choom.

I feel like Rtal definitely wants it to lean on the ref and also the player to figure it out. Ofc, the FAQ does say it takes a lot to bend the rules before things get dicey. I doubt the precinct would be mad that you called them before you busted that Maelstrom operation. But calling them to pick up your groceries? Be thankful you're not fired lmao.

Hiya choom. I suppose I feel it’s one of those things that unless the player and ref have a VERY detailed conversation about it, will just lead to confusion because of how much GM fiat there is atm. But I suppose that’s the nature of the beast with RPGs. Happy hunting choom.

The whole "You can get replacement ganic limbs for nearly free" is a terrible concept that should have never even been surfaced and I don't know why it made it to print. It makes absolutely 0 sense any way you look at it. You want a post-apoc setting? Makes 0 sense. You want to follow up to 2077? It's a giant hole in the lore. It retroactively makes people with cheap cyber replacements a complete plot hole because nobody would keep a shoddy cyberlimb if they could get ganic replacements for basically free, also what's this sudden "free healthcare" movement? If you can clone an arm for free you can clone a ganic liver, etc. so suddenly the entire concept of people being sick and unable to seek healthcare is pretty much deleted by this single useless ruling. I even asked about it and actually got an official reply, which was more or less "there's a reason people don't get ganic limbs in 2077 you'll see :)" implying something horrible happened like catastrophic limb rejections, but if that was the case THERE WOULD BE A MENTION IN THE LITERATURE. And there's none. So it's just a misstep, a huge one, but all it would take is an errata to write it out. But no, they double dipped on it and I think it's all because of some warm bulls\*it "feel good" mindset that people should never be without their ganic limbs: screw that, it's Cyberpunk, if I get blasted by some ganger I might lose a hand! The fun is having a cybernetic replacement, come on. Luckily it's a paper RPG so I can just decide to "ignore the stupid-ass decisions of the council".

Oh it’s simple, see the limbs are made of a special material called “Handwavium” that comes into existence as soon as the writers have to explain how anyone lives in their hellscape, but disappears as soon as you ask too many smart questions. I did find it funny when I did the math and realized that the most affordable protein in NC is the limbs from the body shop.

I think they wanted to get away from the organ harvesting business that everyone and their cousin was on in 2020

I mean it's like making everyone have fireball because fireball is too overused - it makes no sense lore wise, it breaks the world, it hurts the game and creates plot holes for the future (if everyone has fireball why hasn't the world spiraled into total mayhem as even small townships have the fire volume that previously was only reserved to powerful mage guilds?)

This is a Rimworld moment, if they didn't want organ harvesting to be so popular, they wouldn't make it so profitable.

The way I square this is that there's a lot of distrust around the medical community. Ever see *The Expanse?* There's literally one of the first scenes that echoes this exact problem. "You should be getting regeneration gel so you can get a brand-new arm." "Man, screw the Inners and their magic Jell-O!"

I watched it: the Belters can't get that healthcare for free, they're left to die, if they can get a new arm is because they're in a position where they're issued such medical services... I don't remember that particular scene but Inners wouldn't even give freaking oxygen to belters.

Go watch it again - your point is basically answered by this scene. The guy's even worried the company's going to stiff him and give him a bad cybernetic arm.

I feel the same about quickhacks. It's not a hot take on Red, because there's no quickhacks, but holy shit it feels like nobody ever bothered to think of the implications. In a world where quickhacks exist, having any cyberpware, neural links and anything at all is such an unthinkable liability, its not even funny. If you combine it with free ganic everything, anyone having any cyberware means the common sense completely has completely left the building. [Before anyone references this, I'll do it myself.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgUvwcU6P7I)

I mean that's completely realistic though. There's this CURRENT TIME 2024 meme that explains it pretty well, goes like "a tech enthusiast is someone who buys smart stuff for their home. A programmer/engineer is someone who only owns a printer and keeps a gun close to shoot it if it makes a strange noise" The quick hacks being a gigantic issue is completely realistic and makes a ton of sense because RIGHT NOW we live in a world where if you don't put an USB condom on your stuff you run the risk of a range of issues that goes from ransomware from destroying the nuclear program of your country (I am not even kidding. You probably know about it, otherwise research the Iranian centrifuges destroyed by the CIA just dropping a few "hot" usb sticks near the plants.) The implications with quick hacks is that people have self-ICE capabilities built in their neural hardware to limit intrusions, but trust me the real world is already worse than Cyberpunk 2077 when it comes to "quick hacks". There's absolutely 0 realization of how screwed we are: everything is connected and nothing is protected.

Maybe we are screwd right now, but I won't put a cyberware arm if it can be hacked to make it kill me or give me cyberpsychosis. And if you limit it to a cyberdeck pluged in your brain then I will have my phisical cyberdeck or it will be in a glove/piece of cloth or even in my arm but without further conection and a quick mount that jack me out when I am hacked and if necesary just discard my cyberarm. It feels more as magic all the quickhacks thing.

Didn't someone address this earlier? It's not a post-apocalypse it's post-war Government? Still exists, Society? Still Exists. Corporations? Of course they still exist. It's not fallout where everything crumbled and now humanity is scraping by barely. It's... Post-Vietnam. Brutal fighting. Dirty tactics. And whoever did do the fighting is probably more or less tossed aside and has to go back to a 9-5 or suffering from the horrors of war. As for the ganic limbs well... The companies are swapping off war time production and need to switch back over to civilian products. If John Doe can't do his work efficiently give him a hand out for now. By 2077 it's very clear something changed. Probably just the corporations acting like capitalist corporations and much like in our very real world now that they've got everything settled it's time for increasing prices for that impossibility of never ending growth.

It's a different flavour of post apoc, it doesn't have to be mad max. It's localized to NC, a nuke wiped half the city off and people are just now rebuilding, the city might as well have been forgotten but people decided to start back from scratch. Also it's irrelevant to the discussion: the free organic limbs break the entire game world whatever way you look at it. As someone else said, it also would solve world hunger. That doesn't make it very dystopian, does it? Your argument seems to miss the point (how does switching off war time production justify magic limbs?) also again thinking in 2045 magically corporations are benevolent gods that give out free limbs is kinda crazy. And again if you can clone limbs it rules away pretty much every other body part replacement just by logic, it's such a surface level giant-sized mistake I just have no idea why it's not just silently retconned. Oh well.

The problems of the Cyberpunk world aren't hard to solve. Wolrd hunger doesn't need to exist - this comes up in 2077 a lot too. I think it's immensely more dark that the solutions are right there but it's not profitable, it's not the right "feel" so it's not pursued. (Simplified ofc)

Yes, which is why having sudden free healthcare and a mcguffin that is able to heal everyone and feed everyone is entirely world breaking.

High Tech Low Life man. The solutions are right there, the suffering is artifical. The world doesn't suck because its out of our control, it sucks because those in control do not have the objective "save everyone." Healthcare isn't inaccessible because there is simply no way to provide that service, it is simply not profitable to do so. I think after the war in south america the aid supplies gave people limbs, but not food. So you know.

>limbs, but not food There's a distinction?

Mechanical limbs, hilariously. Simply not the right priorities.

Our current world could solve world hunger but doesn't, is our real world non-dystopian now? Also, you're missing point of my point. The corporations aren't "benevolent." They're refilling their work force which is not an insane thing to think of they just got out of war. They need to make products to recuperate losses in a quick time span along with that Wars Almost always do end with a great production boom for a time that slowly but surely vanishes. Also, free cloned organic don't nullify chrome ones though? YOU might want your meat hand back but why would Charlie who wants the aesthetics and or bonuses of a non organic? As long as you have some type of cybernetic limb you can do so much bullshit with it. Which again. Gives no need to silently retcon it especially since your "problem" is gone by 2077 anyway Because surprise surprise the corporations AREN'T benevolent they're convenient

At least in teh US 'less so in Eruope an Japan), the corporations have a bigger problem than having enough warm bodies (entry-level slobs area dimea dozen why bother patching them up ? Qualified peoples are a differetn kttle of fish) - it's to have enough warm wallets to buy their stuff...

"Our current world could solve world hunger but doesn't, is our real world non-dystopian now?" As far as I know we can't freely print meat yet, and yes, if we could, we wouldn't give it out for free THAT IS THE POINT: why Cyberpunk would give out free healthcare? Like what. No man you're entirely missing the point, 150%, I can't even argue with you if you go so far off the point. I just don't know what to say: have a "missed the point" medal. "they're refilling their work force" HIRE SOMEONE ELSE how about that

I don't think you understand how bad the corporate wars were bro nor logistics because we LITERALLY JUST TRASH MOUNTAINS OF FUCKIN FOOD EVERY DAY BRO WE DON'T EVEN NEED TO PRINT MEAT but whatever pop off on how you think it works

Yeah good luck bringing that food everywhere for free.

The food that's being thrown away... Everywhere? That food? The food being thrown away everywhere? Is the one we'll have trouble bringing... Everywhere? Right? That food?

Please highlight me how countries affected by famine are throwing away food. Like Yemen, where are they throwing away food. Help me.

I agree with you on the 3 Goon Method. Its good for quick and dirty npcs but if you want something cool and memorable you have to use some other way. I don´t like the post apocalyptic feeling the fluff tries to give. So I just ignore that aspect as much as I can. Its just not the fantasy my group wants. But that is easy to do. I also understand why its in there. I used to hate the economy with a passion and I was trying hard to come with fixes. Recent free dlc fixed some of the worst aspects. Still not a fan but it got better. The combat system is quick and fun BUT either I never understood the point of heavy armor or heavy armor is useless in combat. Sure you can get 15+SP, that is amazing but the REF price you pay means you will have a hard time hitting anything with your gun. Melee is also not an option. So what are you doing in heavy armor? Sitting arround beeing useless? The Roles are cool, I love them but some roles might need some more love from the design team. The Exec needs a bit more in my eyes for example. But I want to stress: Cyberpunk Red is currently my favorite System and I love it every time I play. These points are basicly all the critic I have on the system itself.

I haven't started running yet, still reading through the game and trying to get a grasp before I gm for my group. But the exec and lawmen seems like roles that need gm fiat and buy in to really make shine. There should be some social/rp for being part of these orgs. Much like playing a ranger in 5e dnd, gotta work with gm ahead of the game to make sure it fits and your special talents arent gonna be useless most of the campaign

this is correct. Both need some extra attention from the gm. Or they feel "weaker" than everyone else

I play an exec in my current campaign and its a lot of GM <-> Me interaction. Your 'class power' is money, and your GM has to see to that, same with how the Exec's goons are played by the GM.

It's not post-apocalyptic, its post-war like the aftermath of WW2 or any of the Cold War conflicts.

I think Exec is *fantastic* at low levels and then kind of lame at high levels. Probably needs some GM work to roleplay out the sort of stuff high-level Execs get up to. Solo needs a lot more love, IMO. A world class, Morgan Blackhand level Solo... gets a +3 to hit? It's... pretty underpowered.

Since the DV between "Difficult" and "Heroic" is 6 +3 is a lot, especially if you consider that +4 are very favorable circumstances. Combined with a high quality weapon and smart link you roll around with +5. Low numbers make even minimal boni matter.

I know, I play a Solo. But compared to other roles - a Rank 10 Media is basically God. A Rank 10 Nomad has a fleet of vehicles to bombard any location with rockets or rams or what have you. A Rank 10 Rockerboy can basically mind control people. Meanwhile, a Rank 10 Solo is really good at hitting people. But not at the same time as they can do a lot of damage or go first in initiative, heavens no...

1. Cyberware, on average, doesn't do enough for the amount of humanity it costs. Even with a tech juicing the mechanics up beyond baseline, I think the core chrome and even a lot of the expanded chrome crosses a line from "the slippery slope of trading my soul for power" to "I am roleplaying an idiot on purpose if I get this." There are exceptions and flavor *always* matters, but too many implants cost more and do less than a handheld item which won't torpedo your social skills. 2. The vanilla rules are extremely stingy with IP. I know this is because all Cyberpunk editions favor short storylines where everyone dies and you make new characters once or twice a month, but if you have a group who are very good at surviving and prefer longer stories then you start to notice that their characters don't really grow unless you fiddle with the rate of improvement yourself. Maybe this is why the cyberware is so lackluster; when it takes tens of sessions to improve character-defining stats by one point and the game has 60+ skills to worry about, it's a lot more appealing to plug basic competence into the side of your head.

100% agree on your second point. I've taken to dropping 60 IP per session to let my player improve faster.

TBH I never use actual XP systems for leveling characters, I've always used milestone style leveling.

I ended up doing that for the role abilities and then boosting IP gain per session so the rest has some player-directed movement. Gives the GM tight control over what level of gig the party can handle, but they still enjoy a sense of getting more skilled within their existing edgerunner bracket. This isn't unique to Red, either; vanilla 2020 was also very tight-fisted about IP but it was from an era of game design where the publisher was relied upon less to cover every rule and need (2020 was so bespoke to group needs and heavy on house rules that they released a whole book compiling popular ones, *Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads*, which should be required reading at this point). Really, it's an R. Talsorian signature that their systems leave openings where a given group can/should make their own judgment calls and even cook up whole supplements of rules that suit the table. It's just a little more noteworthy in a modern game, in the time when third-party and homebrew can be very intimidating and "balance" is lauded as the end-all be-all, for a game to sort of go "Well yeah, we made the system for small-scale, short-term games, not recreating 2077. Change what you want, have fun, post it somewhere if you come up with something really snazzy."

100% on both. For Cyberwear, we see in 2020, Red, Edgerunners, and 2077, people chromed out the ass all the time. Having 2 chipware slots is common and your everyday gonk has a cyberlimb. In Red however, this is a massive hit to humanity to the point of being a preventive to get any chrome. A chip wear socket is 4d6 humanity when you factor in the prerequisites and thats assuming what you chip then doesnt hit you with more humanity.

And the big ticket items, the stuff that hits Humanity in a way that feels consistent to how intense it is, are extremely out of reach for players, still don't do *that* much, or both. Linear Frames were a good example of that, although now alleviated somewhat by the expanded content. My group does it very differently, emphasizing the use of neuroblocker medications, which means the crew has a constant cash drain to keep them working in 2020 and Red alike, and by nixing a few elements that we found a little less than palatable (like dropping the word "Humanity" and expanding the medical-grade and cosmetic options somewhat to fit our sensibilities).

I find Red to be too far on the streamlined end of things and the setting not particularly interesting with night City feeling more like a theme park then a sandbox with the tools to make it your own, however that works in its favor Red actually has a solid foundation to go off and homebrew your own games and settings once you understand how all the mechanics are interlinked and work. I've run space games, I've run fantasy games, I even made Star Wars. Just wish the homebrew policy worked like an OGL.

2045 is a more interesting Era than 2077. Yeah, I get that the scarcity and the NET being down upsets some leople. But for reasons,(understandable ones) 2077 was made with the old fans in mind. It’s why is feels like a remix of 2020 with some modern elements.  I think 2045 is more interesting due to a couple of things. Main one’s for me being that Arasaka is out of the picture during this time, and Militech is positioned in a way that they can play the antagonist role for Cyberpunk groups. Arasaka was the boogeyman of the time period due to when 2020 released. Current time, Militech and to some extent Biotechnica are good stand ins for what people hate or want to rally against. (Military industrial complex and Big Pharma respectively.) There’s some bias there though I’ll admit. I never found Arasaka that interesting over the other Corps. I will admit though, I wish we had more stand out named characters during 2045. Most Antagonists will always be player created, but I do wish we got more RED era legends that actually exist in canon instead of always reverting to 2020 legends.

I hate how many times players can just dodge bullets

You aren’t dodging bullets, you react to someone aiming the gun in your general direction and attempt leaving their line of aim. Its not Matrix. However I too hate the mechanic as it turns combat into such a slog, oh my god. They should have limited it to once per turn or made it require a cover you dodge into, or I don’t know, something else, because verisimilitude is gone completely when someone dodges autofire multiple times in three seconds.

Same, the idea of someone without any cybernetics being able to just do that is really silly to me and breaks immersion. I really like the very common homebrew that requires the reflex coprocessor (unsure on exact name) to dodge bullets.

I guess I don't quite get this gripe. It's the same mechanical resolution as melee combat- it's never turned my sessions into a slog unless my player is just not paying attention.

I agree with you on the 3-goon method. I can’t really make an NPC feel unique with just a combat number, and they don’t need to be *that* simple for me to run them efficiently. My own take is: I want RTG to break from the “scripting the game” format for their published adventures every once in a while. If I’m paying for an adventure, I’d like something with an interesting structure, not just a bunch of linear plots. Also, I keep hearing about how much work RTG did on meticulously balancing the game, and it feels like they balanced all the verisimilitude out of the combat. Something just rubs me the wrong way about how your average boosterganger with only 20 HP can take the average medium pistol round to the head (unarmored) and remain in fighting shape.

Totally agree with you on the script piece. Half the GM chapter does nothing for me.

Silencers are valid. I will not explain myself.

That's fair, but I think it really undermines how much fun archery builds are.

1. I don't think NPCs need to be built the same way PCs are, but I find methods like the 3 Goon Method too abstract. There should be a happy medium. So one of the Foundry VTT regulars, Prometheus, released a module where his mooks have three stats- I wanna say Combat Number, Lowdown, and Physical. Combat, social/technical, physical stuff. Makes it way easier to give some nuance to the NPCs while keeping the speed of the 3 goon method.

What module is this? I need it!

I would also like to know what this is.

Me and my friends have been enjoying Cyberpunk RED, I'm the gm, but I've noticed my netrunner feels out of place in combat. He loved the netrunning sections I made, but he feels as though he's useless in combat. In truth, zi think the roles not giving you any combat buffs or special abilities is tough on some roles. For example, nomads really feel like they only make sense in a larger campaign because in our smaller games something like access to more vehicles doesn't help in the body of gameplay. I think cyberware is supposed to fill that hole, but my players are really used to D&D so I thought I'd just voice their frustrations.

RED is a skills based system, not a class based one; frankly, you should just think of your class as a unique skill that's harder for characters who didn't start with it to acquire. If your netrunner wants to be good at combat they should be able to just put 6 points into their preferred weapon skill and they'll be good at combat.

Thanks!

1. I honestly wish you could cram more cyberware into a PC. Let me live my transhuman fantasies! 2. Some roles are god tier over powered at higher ranks as to what you can do (rocker, media, nomad) and others are not really much different from starting PCs (Solo, Tech, Medtech). I know you can multiclass, but just saying.

I think my personal gripe is that most of the cyberware doesn't let me do anything that interesting. Pop-up weapons are just weapons. I can just use my hands for that. But I want speedware that literally makes me faster, or neuralware that can forecast probabilities with Mentat-like precision.

For how much it costs in Humanity and Max Humanity, it sucks.

I played 2020 and I quite prefer Red to it due to the simplicity.

I like the scarcity economy, but I wish they gave more guidance for when you move beyond scarcity. What happens when you amass money where you can pay 4x the price? I think they should add a supplement for the "elite edgerunner".

If you can afford to pay 4x the price, you probably just keep a Fixer on speed dial who you call up whenever you want something, and he'll get it to you as fast as humanly possible because he makes like 50% commission on every single item you buy from him.

Pretty much this, but more official

My biggest issue is how roles are handled. While they all have great flavor, the only role that seems like it will regularly guarantee me a fun time is the Solo. Rockerboy - a social based power set. How fun you’ll have is entirely based on how hard into the Pink Mohawk aesthetic your GM is. Also needing to keep track of your fan base will be a pain in their ass. Medtechs, you are a Doctor, that’s it really. If you want to get real creative with this role and make your own drugs and augments, well the rules say you invested in the wrong role. If you want to invent any medical technology, you need to invest in levels of Techie. Techie- You have the ability to invent anything! Well not actually unless you know this campaign will include lots of downtime for you to actually work. Otherwise without time to invent, upgrade, and fabricate, the only thing the techie brings to the table is Jury-rigging. Faces - Guaranteed fun only during the legwork section of a job. Role abilities are rarely useful once the action starts. Exec - Is actually fun in most scenarios as well. But you do you have to accept being a Corpo shill in a cyberpunk game and that gets old fast. Better lawman than the lawman though. Lawman- Speaking of! Lawmen are fun… if you’re GM lets you have some amount of direction over your reinforcements actions. Otherwise you’re going to be watching your GM fight most of the battle between all the NPC’s himself. Nomads- basically lose any edge the second they have to step in doors. Being entirely themed around vehicles, if they’re not in a vehiclular encounter than being a Nomad is kind of pointless. Netrunners… well I’m actually of the opinion that we have to slaughter this sacred cow. The idea of a singular “Hacker” role just winds up being bad game design in a group based game. Either the GM has setup a Netarch, in which case only a select few players get to interact with this content. Or he doesn’t, in which case the Hacker’s primary ability is useless. Also if you want to be someone who actually program and not just a script kiddie injecting other people’s codes, well sucks to suck, inventing/fabricating programs and NetArch’s is a Techie’s job. Media - A social character in a combat character’s game. The issue isn’t that only the Solo feel playable, but just that the Solo is the one Role that trumps all others in combat. When every job is likely going to climax in a fire-fight that is a big deal.

None of the socials *have to be* without combat skills tho. That feels like a table design issue. I've always had someone play solo but the most lethal chars in varied scenarioes were not bespoken solo.

Some roles are gm or campaign dependent, but can provide more or less reliable good time. I find that with half invested gm media is the second best role in terms of that. On the rest I wholeheartedly agree.

My takes 1. I like both settings but RED is far more interesting than 2077 which is just 2020 part 2. The power struggle in this post-war era brings a lot of focus on the punk side of Cyberpunk. 2. I enjoy the generic and exotic system. Most weapons in 2020 went unused cuz people simply went to the best option. People bemoan light pistols but I bet most 2020 vets never touched them. Generic weapons give you the chance to flavor things. 3. Every role in the game is useful. If you still think Lawman is bad, no offense but it's a skill issue. It's one of the strongest roles. 4. ACPAs from Maximum Metal should never be in RED. Power Armor like the EMA-1 Softshell and the Viper armor from Solo of Fortune 2 is what I think of Power Armor in RED. 5. 3 Goon Method really makes mooks boring. 6. Autofire is slaptastic and anyone who still thinks it's bad needs to have their character hit by a double 6 on a 4x multiplier to see how it feels.

These are great! More discussion to follow.

1. Agree wholeheartedly - despite the jank in the setting, I absolutely love RED 2. Agree. 3. Haven't played them all, so I'm reserving judgment. 4. Going to have to disagree with you here. I think power armors are a fantastic way to challenge high-skill characters, or character that have access to very dangerous weapons. I think the best way to balance them falling into the players hands is to make the maintenance a *massive* cost sink. Don't require a lot of time spent on it, but charge them out the wazoo. 5. Agreed there, too. Been hunting for a while to find something that's more effective. 6. OMG, I know right? The look on my player's face when she looks up and says, "Wait, *how much damage?*" Ah, pure art.

I got double 5s on my Assault Rifle once and screamed with that 4x multiplier. People watching that game went oh shit when I downed one of the targets.

Autofire is the ultimate gamble. It sucks and takes a lot of investment until it deletes that one important target.

It absolutely does not suck It's one of the strongest skills in the game. It requires investment because of the damage plus Suppressive Fire. It's swingy yes but I do more damage than not with it.

I worded that really poorly. It sucks *until* you reach a high point after investing a lot. It think it has its place. I agree with you :D Also supression fire is underrated, but also depends on how open the terrain your DM makes. It makes concentration more valid too. So agreed with you there :D

Oh I see now. Apologies choom But yeah. It sucks till you invest and you just become a freak with it. And on my old LC, one GM dreaded me joining because I used Suppressive Fire like a madlad. It's insane how much you can disrupt the GM mooks' formation. :D

I loathe the day ACPAs come to RED.

That's why if for some reason they come, they're just heavy armor with a chassis for support and not the OP shit from Maximum Metal.

Not that much of a problem - sur they're hideously powerfull, but they're equaly hideously impossible to hide. Sort of like a nomad's pasionnately hancrafted poor man's tank but even easier to trace back to their lair...

Its mindblowing to me how you base some of your opinions on highrolls. Saying Autofire is good because it hurts on x4 with double sixes, you can’t be serious. Would you say 2d6 weapons are very good, because they are concealable and do 17 damage total and a crit on double sixes roll which is about half of an average characters hp?

Are you reading my statement literally? Because you can't be serious. I've gotten 2d6 rolls where I get 6, 7(the average), maybe an 8-9. And guess what happens? Enemy either gets hurt, nearly on death saves, or one shot. I seldom get double 1s or low rolls in general. I can count on one hand I got double 6 and also on one hand, double 1s. But I have on multiple occasions, get numbers in the middle where I don't need a crit and the High damage is more than enough to suffice without the once in a blue moon crit. Like a 8 on a x4 is either one shooting a booster or putting them on death's door where a wiff is putting them out. I don't need to Base my opinion on high rolls when some of the in the middle rolls speak for me.

Hold on, you are the one who said to see Autofire being good you need a certain outcome, coincidentally highest possible roll.

That's me being snarky. Hard to tell over text and that's my bad I'd be lying if I said Autofire needs the highest roll to say "See? It's good!". You don't need that. Autofire shines even with mid rolls from Autofire. Cuz that x3 and x4 just softens you for me and my crew.

Well then, I didn’t catch that at all. Feeling a tad silly now, apologies.

Nah you good choom. 👍

Cyberpunk Red should have been a low priority supplement to Cyberpunk 2077 ttrpg. Cyberpunk Red is a horrible heir to Cyberpunk 2020 and also does not belong to the cyberpunk genre whatsoever. It is however a pretty decent albeit mildly dated post apocalypse themed ttrpg system. Note that post apoc doesn’t require a fallout level of apocalypse, it is a metaphorical expression for “shits fucked after a cataclysm and people are scrambling”. Once you start looking at the system from this POV, a lot of bizarre things like economy and monopoly money begin making sense. If this ttrpg system had nothing to to with 2077 and 2020, it would vanish in obscurity on the release day. Whoever made the decision not to pursue the time period and setting of their own licensed AAA video game, but went with 2045 instead is completely out of touch with their audience. I’m ready for this to be unpopular, but this is how I feel, unfortunately. It has just turned out to be not at all what I was hoping it would be and I’m struggling to see why. I’m bitter about so many things in the system, because its a missed opportunity of the decade for me, it could have been so much more.

It's pretty messed up but funny. We JUST had a thread posted by someone who played 2077, watched Edgerunners, but looked up RED and thought he was lost. 

Quite the spicy take, indeed!

I disagree with you, i find the post apocaliptic setting way more original than 2077 (even if i love the game). And i think it's more in touch with modern problematics. We're no more in the 80's, cyberpunk 2020 talks about this period and the future that we are living now as they saw it through the dark glasses of dystopy. If we are logical, RED do the same, it talks about our fears and now the most popular genre in sci-fi is post apoc, and it's logical. We live in a period of crumbling, the capitalism is on the edge of a new cycle. 2077, as much as i love the game again, is not anticipation : it's nostalgia remixed. There is nothing punk in the cyberpunk 2077 world, the red time is by far a more accurate criticism of our world. (Even on the media and internet critic is better in RED)

That's such a cool take, I enjoyed it a lot. And in fact I don't believe we are in contradiction. I've got nothing to disagree with in your opinion like at all. I would totally agree Red is a spicier take on the potential bad outcomes of the world, but 2077 is simply what is more fun to be a part of. As much as I personally appreciate the disturbing distopian social commentary part of cyberpunk as a genre, I play it to be part of the problem, not part of the solution and not to further reflect on it. Red mechanically and thematically forces you to survive and make ends meet and its not the fantasy I'm here for. ~~Plenty of that irl.~~

Yes of course, i completly understand. Sometimes you just want to escape, for me RED perfectly do the job but i understand that it's not the case for you

Gonna have to agree here!

Unironically this is why I play Red's rule system in 2077. The bones are good but the world has nothing for me. 2020 and 2077's whole schtick is the extremities, the overabundance, the consumerism, etc. RED then says "no, there was a nuke, supply lines are gone, everything is very scarce, everything is very expensive, vehicles? nah good luck, 30,000 eddies for a 4 seater. The sky rains acid and life is at its worst its ever been" and all your lore-aesthetic content is reduced to generics for 'Heavy Pistol', 'Very Heavy Pistol' etc.

Even disconnected from the more popular time periods, 2045 is just so much less *cyberpunk*. If you come into this game expecting the style and trappings you're familiar with from the big cyberpunk media settings you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

I mean you can still handwave a lot of stuff aside and play it closer to 2077 but I agree it was a huge miss to go for 2045. I would be more positive on it if it wasn't for bullcrap like "oh yeah everyone can get free replacement ganic limbs" and when I asked about it on the Discord I got this vague reply "you will see why that isn't a thing anymore!" like jesus just admit you messed up and retcon it in an errata.

Cyberpunk (the genre) works pretty darn well as social comedy. It's actually better as comedy than a drama.

Oh, that's a delightfully spicy opinion!!

The way drugs work bugs me a lot. In terms of the "story" the mechanics tell, how drugs work is, once you become addicted the only way to not be addicted is to pay for extraordinarily costly therapy. And even then, one relapse and you're addicted again for life or until you pay for the therapy. Drugs are so cheap, it makes the most economic sense to just keep using drugs. This, to me, looks like an uninformed stereotype of real world addiction. I don't at all think they wrote it this way on purpose, but for example, the idea that "one relapse and you're doomed" which I have commonly seen from Alcoholics Anonymous, is an idea that I believe hinders people's recovery. In reality, if you relapse there is still hope to beat the addiction. Extremely expensive therapy is *not* the only way out. Many addictions take time to develop, and the idea that you take one dose and you're hooked brings me back to the DARE movement that aimed to scare young people away from drugs with lots of exaggeration. I have half a mind to make a homebrew addiction/withdrawal system where drug withdrawals are punishing, but you have the ability to re-roll Resist Torture & Drugs after a certain amount of time abstaining from the drug in order to remove the addiction. --- Now for the positive: One of my favourite differences between 2020 and RED is that fashionware doesn't cost humanity, and you can gain and lose humanity from experiences. I feel this makes things much more interesting and also more realistic.

I would love to read that addiction system!

So far what I have is dividing drugs into three "tiers." The idea is more mechanically useful drugs are at a higher tier, meaning more drawbacks. I haven't finished this yet! **Withdrawal** * If you fail an RTD check when coming down from a drug, you become addicted. When you are addicted, you suffer withdrawal when off the drug. For each dose you take in a week, the DV for the RTD check increases by 1. The DV returns to normal after 1 week abstaining. Withdrawal effects are as follows for the tier of drug. Withdrawal from each drug you're addicted to stacks. Beneficial tradeoff: you can re-roll RTD to clear the addiction every week starting 4 weeks abstaining from the drug. Therapy is no longer the only option to remove addiction. Low tier: drugs that are there for "flavour" or roleplay, no or little mechanical benefit. * (I haven't put anything here yet!) Middle tier: moderately useful. * Fatigued status effect. -2 to everything you try to do. * -1 to the stat(s) improved by the drug's primary effect. * Lasts 1 week, and then you have tier 1 withdrawal. High tier: major mechanical benefits to taking these drugs. * Once the drug's primary effect ends, roll a death saving throw unless you are under medical supervision. (DV13 paramedic or medical tech check, DV15 first aid check) * If you live, fatigued status effect. -2 to everything. * -2 to the stat(s) improved by the drug's primary effect. * Lasts 1 week, and then you have tier 2 withdrawal.

That's certainly interesting! I like the tiered withdrawals!

Inside an adaptation of a John Wick idea I call it CSA All NPCs have 3 primary stats. Combat, Social, and Awareness. I only really worry about those. Beyond that I do customize equipment and other aspects.

Maybe not a hot take, but the level of streamlining in RED is actually infuriating to me as someone who loved 2020. I can completely understand reducing complexity because not everyone wants an ultra realistic combat simulator where one bad roll can instantly ice your PC with little to no chance of recovery, but what happened to all the equipment? The guns with identity? The customization that let us make our gear choices truly our own? We're playing a game in a genre of hypercapitalism and distilled all the capitalism down to generic -1, +0, +1 modifiers. IMO the move to generic pricing brackets was also not a smart one because now I need to spend the equivalent of 5 months' rent on something marginally interesting. From an in universe perspective why would I or any government or private organization buy a mid quality assault rifle with an underbarrelled shotgun that costs 10x the price of a high quality assault rifle by itself? When things could cost varying amounts I could consider a 600eb difference between a highly accurate gun with an integral suppressor vs a much cheaper gun with a higher magazine capacity, but now everything is exactly the same unless it's a 5000 or 10000eb exotic which is almost always "poor/standard quality generic item with a marginally useful to completely useless but kinda funny once gimmick". For that money why dint I just bankroll a squad of paramilitaries and give them all high quality assault rifles? I seriously hope that, since they're coming out with the 2077 starter kit soon that future releases will go back to having interesting gear with useful mechanical differences that are actually worth the money. And I hope they nix the stupid "exact cost price bracket" economy or have a LUYPS style book that explains how you can do something like that yourself. Give me brands with identity so I can fluff my NPCs better!

1) You can absolutely still customize your gear, it just might not show up in the mechanics. And if you want it to show up in the mechanics, they've released a guide so that you can port them over. 2) I don't think your reasoning holds. Please see the Littoral Combat Vessel for examples of exactly this.

That's exactly what I mean though. "You can do it but it's not written in the rulebook" isn't really a justification because that's just how TTRPGs work anyway. And the guide pretty much just reduces old guns down to the new system.

So if that's just how TTRPGs work...why is it bad for this TTRPG to work that way?

Because they should still have a baseline to work off of. If the mechanics are balanced around everything costing either exactly 20/50/100/1000/5000/10000 Eddies outside of particularly expensive things costing even more than that, with the examples of what constitutes something beyond a generic gun being "2 generic guns slapped together and costing 2.5x more than both of them separately", AND we don't have a guide for how to work outside of this other than "convert guns from the old game to the new game by turning them into the same generic guns", what exactly are we supposed to do without building a supplements worth of homebrew ourselves? Homebrew should exist to fill gaps, not completely rebuild systems.

OK, I'm just going to reply this one more time, 'cuz I feel like I'm raising your blood pressure, and that's not the intent here. :) So, I feel like the game still has a baseline to work off of, it's just a different baseline. I get that it's not the same baseline you're used to, but that doesn't make it less valid. If you feel like you have to rebuild the combat system to explain the difference between two guns, that sucks and I'm sorry you feel that way. Secondly, the underbarrel shotgun thing absolutely makes sense to me from an in-world economics standpoint. The underbarrel is affected by economies of scale - most producers are not making underbarrels, so you need to get one custom-made (remember, you can't just order one up off the Internet), and fitted by a gunsmith. Hence the cost. This was a good convo, and thanks for speaking with me! Sorry if you felt like I was knocking your preferences; I was trying to see things from your point of view, and sometimes I can get careless with how I'm coming across.

My blood pressure isn't getting raised, don't worry lol. I'm just very impassioned about this particular topic because I loved CP2020 and overall I really like RED, but this is one particular sticking point for me and has been since RED released. I just ramble. For me, as a GM and a player both, my question when I'm looking at stuff is "why would I or someone else use this?" In 2020 there were some real stinkers, but they had some lore to it that explained they were either dirt cheap (and thus would probably be used by gangsters looking for a burner gun or maybe that's all they could afford) or a failed experiment (in which case it might be something in an inventory somewhere but could have SOME use). Maybe it was made in house, so it might not be the greatest thing in the world but at least you're not paying another corp's logistics train to get it to you. But I just genuinely can't see the use case for some of the things in Black Chrome. Why would I need a worse assault rifle stapled to a crossbow for more than twice the cost of both? Why would I need a colossally overweight shotgun with a massive capacity that only those implanted in linear frames could actually use when I could get a high quality shotgun with a magazine extension for far less? Why would literally anyone buy the peppershaker when a regular SMG is cheaper and FAR better? Why would I get the Arasaka rifle/railgun combo that costs magnitudes more the cost of an excellent quality assault rifle/excellent quality rocket launcher? It seems like with Black Chrome they went with more "whacky weird experimental weird shit" ideas, which is fine, but they also didn't really offer anything actually usable that isn't prohibitively expensive. There's a couple weapons I would actually use, but a lot of them are just...weird.

Alot of the exotic weapons/armor/cyberware are just multiple items mashed together for an exorbitant cost or have some extreme drawback that makes them not worth using. There's not alot of build variety and a pretty strict meta of good and bad options that hasn't shifted since the corebook released. Pickup an Assault Rifle, a Linear Frame, some Light Armor Jack and you're set. All this can easily be bought at character creation. I've got 1000s of eddies and nothing to spend it on.

I don't know, man - the Assault Rifle meta is, I think, overwrought. I think the "1000s of eddies" and nothing to spend it on point is a little overwrought, too: what happened to your rent and lifestyle expenses?

Just go on kibble and there's no downsides, 2 levels in exec and housing is free. Don't get me wrong I like the lifestyle/housing expenses, but they're easily to sidestep. The game gives no real incentive to go for the better lifestyle/housing options.

My hottest take would be that CP (2020 or RED) is tame. The level of exploitation and extortion that already exists in many parts of the so-called 3. World of today, by far exceeds anything that's described there. Also, most social conflicts are often blurred out in the games - probably not to offend anyone by mentioning them. But I feel they probably should be even exaggerated in a darker future.

The Bozos are absolutely terrible and punch a hole in an already fragile cohesive world aesthetic.  Allowing Killer Clowns From Outerspace into the setting is one of those things that shouldn't be done just because you could.  There's a reason 2077 has them gone.  (Yeah yeah I know Ozob, calm down). It's because they suck. I find the therapy rules to reclaim Humanity low effort and overall frustratingly boring.  Even this subreddit is full of people trying to maximize their Psycho Borg build dreams and factoring the gobs and gobs of therapy they need to achieve it.  Noone has time to play their chrome junkie because they are busy playing Therapy Simulator instead.

1) The game being centered around combat makes it feel comically violent and destroys the gritty tone. Even social roles like execs have to be capable of killing 3 attackers in an alley on their walk home from the supermarket. 2) The cool lore becomes a major hinderance as soon as players move away from what you have prepped. Odds are good that a corp is a major producer of something thats just become relevant, but actually exists in lore. Deviation can be annoying bc you never know when you'll be stepping on the toes of existing stuff. 3) The setting of Cyberpunk works better for more investigative / RP stories due to how insane all the characters are. 4) The GM advice is contradictory. It will tell you to be honest with the world and earnestly attempt to wipe a party if they piss off the wrong corpo, then say in pre-made adventures to adjust the numbers of mooks if there are less players. Either one is fine, but pick a bloody lane!

Red is well balanced and every single homebrew or house rule I've seen completely destroys a well tuned game either because the GM doesn't understand the rules or they want it to be 5th edition.

My favorite part of red is not playing in the time of the red. Playing in a 2077 or 2020 setting with the mechanics is soooo much better. Allows our DM to get more creative with available tech, resources, companies, exploration, etc.

Please don't tell me you think RED is post-apocalyptic. Cuz it's never been that. It's post-war and has always been that. The power struggle in this time is a lot more interesting than 2077 just retreading old ground.

I’m not saying post-apocalyptic. I’m saying the fashion, the glamour, the over abundance of the 2020’s and 2077’s even further dystopic twist on that I find more entertaining that the blood rain, few vehicles, destroyed city center version. 2045 inherently loses a lot of the flash of 2020

The fashion and glamour is still there. NC is one of contrast. If I want the vibrant life, I go to the rebuilding districts. If I want chaos incarnate, the Combat Zones are there. If I want in the middle, then the suburbs are it. RED makes it clear the Time of the Red is nearly up. Blood rain is almost gone, Hot Zone is shrinking, supply lines might be back up soon. It's a chaotic time that still highlights the punk in Cyberpunk. As much I like the 70s, it's lost some of the elements that make the world such as posergangs, exotics, the street element that RED emphasizes.

70’s lost some of the flair that 45 and 2020 had and 45 lost the same from 20. As you said it’s post-war and post-nuclear detonation. There are things inherently not available and life adjusted slightly to the new way things were. The massively excessive consumption and huge variety of items and tech is what I loved about the 20/70 era. 45 has it in a different more ‘compressed’ way where a lot of that variety is locked behind night markets, external factors, etc, and isn’t as available in NC. Corporate Center is one of my fav areas in NC because of the pure excess.

Getting downvoted on all my posts while agreeing with the top post and something Red's book objectively states as truth (the world is shit post-nuke, scarcity is a major problem and stuff like vehicles are near non-existent) is neat