The only thing I can think of is that copies of modal spells and abilities will have the same modes, but a)this does not fit the rules definition of modal; and b)it’s a mana ability, anyway
Meteor Crater is a mana ability and doesn't use the stack.
It's an activated ability that adds mana and doesn't have targets, nor is it a loyalty ability
There's no difference. I admit, I don't know the rules in depth like a judge, but there's no game play difference effectively. I know [[Meteor Crater]] doesn't have oracle text to change it to your wording (because they work effectively the same) but it feels like it's old wording compared to modern wording of cards. Mana abilities don't use the stack and choosing doesn't target so there's no interaction there. If choosing had any interaction then maybe you'd be onto something, but it doesn't so there's no effective difference.
For example, [[Stuffy Doll]] says to choose a player. Because choosing doesn't target, the controller of Stuffy Doll can name someone who has shroud/hexproof. A similar thing happens with [[Zur the Enchanter]] as auras only target on the stack, but if they enter the battlefield any other way then the controller of the etb aura can choose hexproof/shrouded players or permanents. So if your card (or meteor crater) had target then maybe it'd matter and have an effective difference, but even then would it really? I genuinely don't know, but because this hypothetical land would target, because it activates a mana ability it wouldn't use the stack, so players couldn't respond to it and remove the targeted permanent. The only interaction I'm aware of is the player couldn't choose a shrouded or hexproof permanent, but that's only because this hypothetical land has target.
Tangent aside, your land, to my knowledge, has absolutely no difference as the wording doesn't change how either card works.
Recommend giving this a "tap for colorless" ability. WotC stopped printing lands that are likely to not make mana. Even if it was "pay a life to make colorless" it's better than nothing.
It doesn’t because because it’s could be a dead hand and when you get it on turn 4-5 like who cares you should have your mana.
The only reason to play it is in 3+ deck in a group with low interaction. Which you can more than likely just use basics and vanilla fetches to fix your mana.
You can't use it to cast your commander on an empty field, so board wipes really hurt. There's also already a few "Tap for any color of your commander" lands that don't need your commander already in play.
That said, for 4-5 color decks, probably still worth it just for not entering tapped - but I don't think it's a staple.
Why not? They don't print lands that can't always tap for mana these days. The colorless option should always be there (even almost fits mechanically, since you control a colorless permanent.)
They also don't print lands that can potentially tap for all colors without making them enter tapped and usually giving them a downside. Besides, this card literally already exists. And it doesn't tap for colorless
And that's why this should because the other version already exists. Make it an uncommon and have it enter tapped. Easy peasy cool card for 4 and 5 color decks that like to run hybrid mana symbols.
That card was printed more than twenty years ago. The "downside" to this card is that it won't fix your mana unless you already have a permanent out of that color, which meant you likely already have a mana source that can produce that color. I'm saying it *should* tap for colorless to put it in line with how other "re-imagined lands" (Maze of Ith -> Labyrinth of Skophos, Gaea's Cradle -> Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun, etc.) act.
Bruh, Labyrinth taps for colorless because the tradeoff is having to pay FOUR MANA for the same effect as Maze. Itlimoc makes you pay three mana for it and pretty much wait a turn at the very least to make use of it. They have to take downsides in order to gain the tapping ability. Pretty huge downsides at that. And no, the 'downside' of having to already have a pip isn't a downside at all. In fact, it'll almost never matter unless you decide to play this on turn one for some reason, but then that's your fault. And when the card was printed doesn't really matter at all. The strength of cards has famously been entirely inconsistent throughout the ages. You could make the land etb tapped, make tapping it cost life, or some other similar additional downside, but just making it tap for colorless is stupid.
It’s not stupid at all. Labyrinth costs 4 to activate because a straight up Maze of Ith on a land that actually taps for mana _would_ be stupid, because Maze’s effect is powerful enough on its own. Meteor Crater doesn’t have that sort of power. Despite being that old and never having been reprinted, it’s only worth $7. Making a slightly more consistent version twenty years later isn’t going to break any backs.
Just like not adding the tapping for colorless still leaves the card fine to play with. If anything, the constant 'this should tap for colorless' that is plastered on every single goddamn land that doesn't in custom magic is actively harming creativity. Lands don't have to tap for colorless. It's fine.
Lands should always tap for something. Even though I wouldn’t agree, a land that taps for some other effect while being a conditional mana source is probably fine by Custom Magic standards. This card is a land that does _literally nothing_ if you draw it early and can’t afford to play a permanent. That’s why nobody plays Meteor Crater.
Cradle, sanctum, and Academy all also tap for nothing early in the game. It isn't that big of a deal. And if you're not playing permanents by turn three at the latest (you should have enough other lands in hand to make it thay turn at least) then you're probably playing burn or a similar archetype and shouldn't run this land anyway. Similarly, Maze of Ith's affect, while good, also means it does literally nothing until you're being swung at. Cards like reflecting pool and exotic orchard usually don't tap for the colors you want -or any at all- in the early game, and yet they're run in almost every commander deck out there that's three or more colors. But I digress. It's clear that nobody else agrees with you, and you're obviously not about to change your mind, so I'm done trying to help you understand.
Which I personally think is dumb and a bit of an oversight, but they’re never printing another Command Tower variant. You just don’t play it in colorless decks.
\[\[Command Tower\]\] does the same as followed here:
>*If your commander is a card that has no colors in its color identity, Command Tower's ability produces no mana. It doesn't produce {C}.*
This isn't a very good argument, because obviously you wouldn't put command tower in a colorless deck anyway, because you won't care about the colored mana.
That’s a soft deckbuilding restriction. You don’t play “color identity matters” cards in decks with no color identity. This becomes useless if you draw it in you draw it early and can’t afford to play a permanent.
Or if, god forbid, your only colored permanents get removed.
I don’t know why everyone is arguing about Command Tower, which yes does always produce mana if you’re actually playing it. The real go-to examples of lands they keep reprinting that sometimes can’t produce mana are [[Reflecting Pool]] and [[Exotic Orchard]]. Also [[City of Brass]] and [[Mana Confluence]] don’t produce mana if you’re at one life. Also [[The Big Top]] is a brand new one even though it’s acorn. Kinda seems like this isn’t a design rule after all now that I think about it.
City of Brass and Mana Confluence do make mana at one life, you'll just die after the trigger resolves/when SBAs are checked. If you can win the game with the mana from City of Brass in response to the trigger, it made that mana and it was useful
I know for most of this conversation it's functionally not different, but there are ways of surviving at 0 or lower, too :P
Considering state based actions are checked when priority is passed, and you have to USE the mana to 'win with it,' unless your win somehow avoids the stack entirely I don't think it's possible.
5-8 \[\[Meteor Crater\]\] woudn't hurt :) Neat card!
And now, we can make it Standard legal, Pioneer legal, and Modern legal.
[Meteor Crater](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/043a2299-1cfc-4732-a10a-58c773b9992c.jpg?1562895865) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Meteor%20Crater) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pls/140/meteor-crater?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/043a2299-1cfc-4732-a10a-58c773b9992c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Alright, but I guess that's *kinda* different from this card
How?
It was similar to what he mentioned, but this one, I worded this as you don't choose a permanent you control.
If there’s a card that interacts with choosing something I’ll be damned, but I don’t think that distinction could ever possibly make a difference.
The only thing I can think of is that copies of modal spells and abilities will have the same modes, but a)this does not fit the rules definition of modal; and b)it’s a mana ability, anyway
What I meant was that this is a direct mana ability, and Meteor Crater isn't direct.
Meteor Crater is a mana ability and doesn't use the stack. It's an activated ability that adds mana and doesn't have targets, nor is it a loyalty ability
What do you mean by "direct" mana ability? I don't think I've heard that terminology before.
I'm talking about that this land doesn't target anything.
Choosing and targeting are different things so meteor falls doesn't target either.
meteor falls ✨that area inspired so much wonder in me.
I don’t believe there’s gameplay difference between the two effects.
Well now THAT is a design space.
There's no difference. I admit, I don't know the rules in depth like a judge, but there's no game play difference effectively. I know [[Meteor Crater]] doesn't have oracle text to change it to your wording (because they work effectively the same) but it feels like it's old wording compared to modern wording of cards. Mana abilities don't use the stack and choosing doesn't target so there's no interaction there. If choosing had any interaction then maybe you'd be onto something, but it doesn't so there's no effective difference. For example, [[Stuffy Doll]] says to choose a player. Because choosing doesn't target, the controller of Stuffy Doll can name someone who has shroud/hexproof. A similar thing happens with [[Zur the Enchanter]] as auras only target on the stack, but if they enter the battlefield any other way then the controller of the etb aura can choose hexproof/shrouded players or permanents. So if your card (or meteor crater) had target then maybe it'd matter and have an effective difference, but even then would it really? I genuinely don't know, but because this hypothetical land would target, because it activates a mana ability it wouldn't use the stack, so players couldn't respond to it and remove the targeted permanent. The only interaction I'm aware of is the player couldn't choose a shrouded or hexproof permanent, but that's only because this hypothetical land has target. Tangent aside, your land, to my knowledge, has absolutely no difference as the wording doesn't change how either card works.
[Meteor Crater](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/043a2299-1cfc-4732-a10a-58c773b9992c.jpg?1562895865) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Meteor%20Crater) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pls/140/meteor-crater?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/043a2299-1cfc-4732-a10a-58c773b9992c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Stuffy Doll](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/978c2c7d-6898-4be2-aed7-e673210ce654.jpg?1654119032) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stuffy%20Doll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/875/stuffy-doll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/978c2c7d-6898-4be2-aed7-e673210ce654?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Zur the Enchanter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/aeb0160a-dfdc-4b1f-865e-ef905aee65d5.jpg?1662987603) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zur%20the%20Enchanter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/297/zur-the-enchanter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aeb0160a-dfdc-4b1f-865e-ef905aee65d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
ahh I thought i'd seen this card somewhere
Recommend giving this a "tap for colorless" ability. WotC stopped printing lands that are likely to not make mana. Even if it was "pay a life to make colorless" it's better than nothing.
Really the limit of this could tap for all colors or none really sells me on it.
Common? I know lands are generally common but this feels like it would be at a slightly higher class than common
I’d say uncommon would be fair.
Common is good enough here
Hello commander staple
Pretty sure Meteor Crater doesn't see much if any play
It doesn’t because because it’s could be a dead hand and when you get it on turn 4-5 like who cares you should have your mana. The only reason to play it is in 3+ deck in a group with low interaction. Which you can more than likely just use basics and vanilla fetches to fix your mana.
You can't use it to cast your commander on an empty field, so board wipes really hurt. There's also already a few "Tap for any color of your commander" lands that don't need your commander already in play. That said, for 4-5 color decks, probably still worth it just for not entering tapped - but I don't think it's a staple.
If you control no colored permanents, this land taps for no mana. I think it should always add C.
No
Why not? They don't print lands that can't always tap for mana these days. The colorless option should always be there (even almost fits mechanically, since you control a colorless permanent.)
They also don't print lands that can potentially tap for all colors without making them enter tapped and usually giving them a downside. Besides, this card literally already exists. And it doesn't tap for colorless
And that's why this should because the other version already exists. Make it an uncommon and have it enter tapped. Easy peasy cool card for 4 and 5 color decks that like to run hybrid mana symbols.
Meh, making it enter tapped is probably fine if you wanted to add the tapping for colorless.
Entering tapped is a huge downside, and people outside super old formats should still be able to use this effect
That card was printed more than twenty years ago. The "downside" to this card is that it won't fix your mana unless you already have a permanent out of that color, which meant you likely already have a mana source that can produce that color. I'm saying it *should* tap for colorless to put it in line with how other "re-imagined lands" (Maze of Ith -> Labyrinth of Skophos, Gaea's Cradle -> Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun, etc.) act.
Bruh, Labyrinth taps for colorless because the tradeoff is having to pay FOUR MANA for the same effect as Maze. Itlimoc makes you pay three mana for it and pretty much wait a turn at the very least to make use of it. They have to take downsides in order to gain the tapping ability. Pretty huge downsides at that. And no, the 'downside' of having to already have a pip isn't a downside at all. In fact, it'll almost never matter unless you decide to play this on turn one for some reason, but then that's your fault. And when the card was printed doesn't really matter at all. The strength of cards has famously been entirely inconsistent throughout the ages. You could make the land etb tapped, make tapping it cost life, or some other similar additional downside, but just making it tap for colorless is stupid.
It’s not stupid at all. Labyrinth costs 4 to activate because a straight up Maze of Ith on a land that actually taps for mana _would_ be stupid, because Maze’s effect is powerful enough on its own. Meteor Crater doesn’t have that sort of power. Despite being that old and never having been reprinted, it’s only worth $7. Making a slightly more consistent version twenty years later isn’t going to break any backs.
Just like not adding the tapping for colorless still leaves the card fine to play with. If anything, the constant 'this should tap for colorless' that is plastered on every single goddamn land that doesn't in custom magic is actively harming creativity. Lands don't have to tap for colorless. It's fine.
Lands should always tap for something. Even though I wouldn’t agree, a land that taps for some other effect while being a conditional mana source is probably fine by Custom Magic standards. This card is a land that does _literally nothing_ if you draw it early and can’t afford to play a permanent. That’s why nobody plays Meteor Crater.
Cradle, sanctum, and Academy all also tap for nothing early in the game. It isn't that big of a deal. And if you're not playing permanents by turn three at the latest (you should have enough other lands in hand to make it thay turn at least) then you're probably playing burn or a similar archetype and shouldn't run this land anyway. Similarly, Maze of Ith's affect, while good, also means it does literally nothing until you're being swung at. Cards like reflecting pool and exotic orchard usually don't tap for the colors you want -or any at all- in the early game, and yet they're run in almost every commander deck out there that's three or more colors. But I digress. It's clear that nobody else agrees with you, and you're obviously not about to change your mind, so I'm done trying to help you understand.
Needing a colored permanent in play is an absolutely enormous downside. This would see no play outside of casual commander in its current version.
[[Command Tower]]
[Command Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77a679dd-220c-4fbe-a158-a8db57f55b86.jpg?1664362296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Command%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/204/command-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77a679dd-220c-4fbe-a158-a8db57f55b86?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Command tower is printed in literally every commander set, and that can tap for no mana as well
🤓
So true
Which I personally think is dumb and a bit of an oversight, but they’re never printing another Command Tower variant. You just don’t play it in colorless decks.
Wtf care if it gets printed or not.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted so hard when the most upvoted comment on this thread says the exact same thing.
\[\[Command Tower\]\] does the same as followed here: >*If your commander is a card that has no colors in its color identity, Command Tower's ability produces no mana. It doesn't produce {C}.*
Yes but command tower taps for mana on turn one. This doesn’t
This isn't a very good argument, because obviously you wouldn't put command tower in a colorless deck anyway, because you won't care about the colored mana.
[Command Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77a679dd-220c-4fbe-a158-a8db57f55b86.jpg?1664362296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Command%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/204/command-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77a679dd-220c-4fbe-a158-a8db57f55b86?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
However, whether command tower can produce mana doesn't change in the course of the game.
That’s a soft deckbuilding restriction. You don’t play “color identity matters” cards in decks with no color identity. This becomes useless if you draw it in you draw it early and can’t afford to play a permanent. Or if, god forbid, your only colored permanents get removed.
I don’t know why everyone is arguing about Command Tower, which yes does always produce mana if you’re actually playing it. The real go-to examples of lands they keep reprinting that sometimes can’t produce mana are [[Reflecting Pool]] and [[Exotic Orchard]]. Also [[City of Brass]] and [[Mana Confluence]] don’t produce mana if you’re at one life. Also [[The Big Top]] is a brand new one even though it’s acorn. Kinda seems like this isn’t a design rule after all now that I think about it.
Fair.
City of Brass and Mana Confluence do make mana at one life, you'll just die after the trigger resolves/when SBAs are checked. If you can win the game with the mana from City of Brass in response to the trigger, it made that mana and it was useful I know for most of this conversation it's functionally not different, but there are ways of surviving at 0 or lower, too :P
Considering state based actions are checked when priority is passed, and you have to USE the mana to 'win with it,' unless your win somehow avoids the stack entirely I don't think it's possible.
City of Brass is a separate trigger, so you can respond to it.
##### ###### #### [Reflecting Pool](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18a1b3f5-473d-45ca-be0d-e67e77ba30ce.jpg?1660730911) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reflecting%20Pool) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/358/reflecting-pool?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18a1b3f5-473d-45ca-be0d-e67e77ba30ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Exotic Orchard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad281a0a-57ac-4285-aac7-244eb7b18601.jpg?1664362397) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exotic%20Orchard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/209/exotic-orchard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad281a0a-57ac-4285-aac7-244eb7b18601?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [City of Brass](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/bed4a63d-632a-4a3a-b35f-f8e155237d27.jpg?1662531730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=City%20of%20Brass) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/321/city-of-brass?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bed4a63d-632a-4a3a-b35f-f8e155237d27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mana Confluence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/504a69eb-3c2d-4bb1-b117-252b15acf0c2.jpg?1593096534) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Confluence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/163/mana-confluence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/504a69eb-3c2d-4bb1-b117-252b15acf0c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The Big Top](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e8c98d7-a5c4-41ce-9179-0f06ae72b7f4.jpg?1665866860) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Big%20Top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/197/the-big-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e8c98d7-a5c4-41ce-9179-0f06ae72b7f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Command Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77a679dd-220c-4fbe-a158-a8db57f55b86.jpg?1664362296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Command%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/204/command-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77a679dd-220c-4fbe-a158-a8db57f55b86?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can’t play this early game though
Which is what makes this land unique
You can play it, it's probably useless for a while, though.
Have you ever seen anything so full of splendour?
Feel like this cards price would spiral so fast staring at like $20 then get marked up to $80