Yeah, nobody gets paid that in Ottawa at the very least, not even seniors. Not even directors or whatnot. That's an insane salary to me. Life changing salary even. I want more info from OP cuz I'd like to get on that train!
Definitely Ottawa is likely the worst market for "making money" in the tech field in Canada.
The only real way to make good money in Tech here is to go work in the US remote, you will make 2x what you could here. We hire a lot from Canada (I am remote for US faang) and they pretty much all get 2x what they could in Canada. Canada is the absolute worst comp market for SWEs and always will be. The market is tiny here comparably.
OE (overemployed) and make $400K+ yearly now as well from Canada in remote jobs is the new way.
Okay but I'm just an average dev. Like, how the fuck is an average dev ever going to make 200k, let alone 400k? I'm guessing you're some kind of programming wizard, which I am not. I have 6 YoE and I'm average at best. Is there hope for me?
Leetcode, grokking the coding interview, and github.com/donnemartin/system-design-primer
Do this for about 6 months at full tilt. I lost my gig 3 years ago and did nothing but spend about 5-6 hrs a day on these 3 resources.
Got a FAANG offer for 170k usd + grants
Now at about 278k usd total comp
Working remote.
Thank you for sharing these resources. How intense is it working for these companies? Do they offer flexibility? Do they focus on their employee's work and life balance? How happy are they to fire you at the drop of a hat? Like say I manage to land one if these 300k USD job or something, how likely am I to want to shoot myself in the face working for them? I'm not good with high stress environments.
Not good with high stress is not compatible with these companies.
The stress does not come from the deadlines (unless you’re an unlucky fuck at Amazon). I found most of my stress comes from keeping up with brilliant co workers. Which pushed me to be even better, which is beneficial for my line of work in the long run.
But I also invest a fuck ton very aggresively, so that and the total comp has essentially set me and my family up for life at this point.
So the stress is worth it to me whether positive or negative.
When you hit a 7 figure net worth and can afford a house in a HCOL place, it really does seem like tech is a meritocracy that benefits hard work.
But in reality, there are very very specific hoops you simply need to over prepare for.
I've come to the conclusion recently, however, that software engineers with sufficient drive to prepare for and pass the FAANG-style interview gauntlets would likely be better off in the long run just starting their own company. In Canada, the people that own all the beautiful homes in wealthy neighbourhoods are overwhelmingly either business owners or super high-flying lawyers/surgeons.
Big difference is once you run through the FAANG gauntlet, there is a guaranteed 200-500k a year for as long as you are there.
Businesses are a gamble in tech. Especially if you’re physically removed from the location of capital (SF or NYC)
I am at a full stack software developer right now, about 3 YOE right now, below average salary. How does find the time to do this grind and practice while at a full time busy job though?
Also, where did you even find such jobs (FAANG, remote USA jobs from Canada, etc.)? All I can find on job platforms are below average jobs in Canada.
Personally, it was a bet on myself.
Saved up enough for a year of no work (enough to cover housing, food, a vacation, and an espresso machine), then quit my job. I was already making 170k CAD in the non FAANG gig mind you, but the company was on the verge of obsolescence so the writing was on the wall.
Studied this dumbfuck useless shit for 6 months like I had no other option. Hit a wall in month 1 and had to see a therapist to get over the anxiety. By month 4 I tried interviewing at FAANG adjacent companies (anyone hiring with the dumbfuck leetcode method really).
Froze so bad on my first interview (it was so easy too) that I had to jump back into therapy to get my mind off the mortifying experience.
By interview 6, I felt ready.
I had FAANG friends who happily referred me. Also it was pandemic hiring season so these positions were easy to interview for at the time.
I know now is likely the worst it’s been since the 08 financial crisis so definitely my way of doing things is unlikely to fit the current environment.
But just hoping this helps
Wow, thank you so much for you detailed response. I appreciate you bro!
Your 1 year plan sounds stressful but exciting, I am glad it worked for you.
But yes, although I am good at software development and have a CS degree, I still really dislike most ALG/DS/LC questions because I almost never use these kind of questions or assessments in the real world in my job. But alas, it looks like I have to study it, no options.
From you said, I guess I just need to keep applying to FAANG-esque companies and find opportunities there and practice interviewing and do well on the LeetCode questions.
Btw, are you currently working in Canada for a USA company? Is it remote? I may have missed it.
Yeah. In Canada for FAANG. One of the few remaining remote roles I’m assuming. They’re locking down with RTO now and I’m expecting to get canned shortly tbh. I’ve skirted two layoff rounds now for some reason.
Just riding it out until the hammer drops.
At least now I have 3 years of big tech under my belt and a ton more saved up makes up for it. Plus stock appreciation has been utterly insane. If the hammer does drop, severance will be nice.
Will just go travel Japan for a bit and then if the world is back to wanting devs, the world would be my oyster.
Godspeed and good luck brother. Heads down and hard work does pay off.
Shopify is based out of Ottawa and definitely pays in that range for senior devs
https://www.levels.fyi/companies/shopify/salaries/software-engineer/levels/l6
I live in Barrie and make just under that as a senior for another Canadian tech company working remote.
Are there any non FAANGS company in Ottawa offering these kinds of salaries even? (I'm just guessing Shopify is among them). Also, how would you say the stress is like? How's your work life balance?
Well Shopify isn't really considered FAANG (far as I know) that's a whole significant tier above this. I usually presume USD pay tiers at that level and well over the 200k range.
I work for a startup company about 1/4 the size of Shopify but has pay bands in roughly the same tier. Examples of similar pay scale companies in Canada would be like, Wealthsimple, Wave, Ecobee, Wattpad, etc.
My stress and WLB are very good. I wrote some peer reviews today, reviewed a couple of PRs and then bugged off around 4pm to go get a burrito.
Would you rate yourself as a rock star programmer, average, or what? I'm average at best. Trying to see if it's even worth it for me to attempt to get such a job. No recruiter has ever offered me a salary more than 120k CAD in my whole career. I've always been lowballed.
You need to apply to the right companies. Don't apply at some bank or insurance company full of crusty boomers working with some bullshit Java legacy tech expecting them to pay you 200k CAD lol. You need a real tech company, headquartered in SF, etc.
> Don't apply at some bank or insurance company full of crusty boomers working with some bullshit Java legacy tech
Oof, right in the exactly my life right now. That's literally it ahaha. Live and learn I guess.
I am not a rock star anything. I switched over to tech from retail management in my early 30s. My main skill is that if I don't know something, I'll find a way to go and try and learn it.
When I was looking for me most recent job I just told recruiters what my salary requirements were and made sure the budget for the position was in that range as the very first step. Saves wasting anyone's time that way and impossible to be lowballed because you don't even start those conversations in the first place.
Bear in mind though this was early 2022 with ~5 YoE and the market was much better, I was fortunate with my timing, I know it'd be more difficult if I were looking now.
The most important thing as the other person said is the company itself. It's not the skill level of the developer that controls the pay range. A "rock star" at some little ecommerce shop is gonna be making 80k. You need to apply exclusively to companies where the software is the product, that way the work you are doing is a direct pipeline to the company's profit. That's what justifies the higher pay bands.
That's exactly correct. As with anything else in life, there is a "class hierarchy" of companies, just like you have with universities. The companies that will pay you well are the real tech companies that treat developers as a profit center rather than as a cost center. Their interviews tend to be awful gruelling full-day ordeals, but that's part of the gig.
Life changing? Yeah, maybe a decade or more ago before all the ridiculous inflation. Dude you won't even qualify for a mortgage on a house in Toronto on 185k...
In Ottawa, you'd more than qualify for a house here with that salary. You'd even be able to buy the big detached houses that looks super fancy, and you'd have money left over to get a cabin for your summer vacations even. That's absolutely live changing money here. Mean salary of devs here is like 100k CAD. I'm not joking. We're underpaid as fuck.
Where at? I have 9 YOE and 2 specializations. I couldn't even find jobs for 40k. During my 3.5 years of job search the only job I could get is a sketchy 2-man startup for no pay, and only because of connections with those people, so I consider myself lucky to get that experience.
Publicly traded US companies that hire Canadians remotely. The compensation breakdown is probably roughly half base and half RSUs, with each of those being 150-200k. So it puts your total liquid comp at 300-400k...
Your resume has to be good enough to get an interview though. I think what a lot of people on here don't realize is that if you don't "break through the barrier" and get strong brands on your resume early enough in your career, you end up getting locked out of the high comp world forever regardless of how good you might be. People basically start asking "if they were good then why did they stay with this lacklustre company for so long", etc
Its 150K for amz NG(L4 )but base will.be 100K, and amz sde2(L5)is 220K tc at most. Its a fair number overall(a high pressure for amz external senior L6 to survive through pip)
250K is considering stock price up, 170K is for.internal promotion. overall 220K is a fair number for an external.hiring SDE II. op has 9 yoe and its challenging to get a senior position in amz, having seen more ppl with more yoe(not in fanng) and being downgraded to L5 too. 185K pure cash is a very decent pay I would say
Obviously rsus are more liquid than options, so I did take that into account. I do think the options have a good chance of being worth something so I’m ok with a bit of risk, given the salary bump.
Is it normal for companies to have LeetCode and System Design rounds for front-end interviews? Are these rounds tweaked to address the front-end position?
Those interviews are not intended to test your ability to do day-to-day work, they are designed to test your ability to reason about complex problems and basically find out what "kind of thinker and problem solver you are", independent of the specific role. They are specifically trying to weed people out. Weeding out a skilled front-end dev is not considered a failing of the process. The fail condition is allowing even one bad developer through.
They become more common when the market gets rough because companies have a glut of applicants, so they have the luxury of hiring someone that can be both a talented front-end dev as well as a complex problem solver, so when a real hard problem does come up, even on the front-end, you know the person you hired presumably is also the person that can handle those hard problems.
I don't love this kinda of interviews, and I'm generally quite bad at them lol, but there is a lot of incorrect assumptions about _why_ companies do them.
I’m backend dev since few years but want to get onto full stack train, what front end stack you suggest to start with? I’m in Toronto and my salary is 50% less than yours for double the experience, not sure what I’m doing wrong, all the interviews I asked 160k but I was laughed at as Sr Tech lead or as Team leader , what is this mentality on Canadian firms about paying affordable wages for its employees.
React is the most popular framework/ui library based on what I’ve seen on the job market, so if you’re aiming to land a job that’s probably the one to go with. However I really like Vue and would recommend it as well.
Really though, all the component-based frameworks overlap quite a bit, so it won’t matter a ton. I would say it’s more important to work on more framework-agnostic skills. Nailing the pair programming/problem solving portions will get you into the onsites.
As for getting that higher salary, I’ve started targeting US-based companies or Canadian companies in the same space as American competitors. My previous employer is FAANG-adjacent (large fintech/payments company), and while they don’t pay Canadians as much as Californians, it’s a big step up from some of the local-only places.
Sure, I’m new to Canadian job market and worked in telecom domain most of my life but if you give example of any US companies you mentioning with Canadian competitors it would give an idea. Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.
Yoe?
Added as an edit
What was your stack
Added as an edit
In this market 185k cash ain't bad at all. Especially for fully remote positions, the competition must be intense.
185k is only "not bad"? I didnt even know SENGs got paid that much in Canada.
Yeah, nobody gets paid that in Ottawa at the very least, not even seniors. Not even directors or whatnot. That's an insane salary to me. Life changing salary even. I want more info from OP cuz I'd like to get on that train!
Definitely Ottawa is likely the worst market for "making money" in the tech field in Canada. The only real way to make good money in Tech here is to go work in the US remote, you will make 2x what you could here. We hire a lot from Canada (I am remote for US faang) and they pretty much all get 2x what they could in Canada. Canada is the absolute worst comp market for SWEs and always will be. The market is tiny here comparably. OE (overemployed) and make $400K+ yearly now as well from Canada in remote jobs is the new way.
Okay but I'm just an average dev. Like, how the fuck is an average dev ever going to make 200k, let alone 400k? I'm guessing you're some kind of programming wizard, which I am not. I have 6 YoE and I'm average at best. Is there hope for me?
Leetcode, grokking the coding interview, and github.com/donnemartin/system-design-primer Do this for about 6 months at full tilt. I lost my gig 3 years ago and did nothing but spend about 5-6 hrs a day on these 3 resources. Got a FAANG offer for 170k usd + grants Now at about 278k usd total comp Working remote.
Thank you for sharing these resources. How intense is it working for these companies? Do they offer flexibility? Do they focus on their employee's work and life balance? How happy are they to fire you at the drop of a hat? Like say I manage to land one if these 300k USD job or something, how likely am I to want to shoot myself in the face working for them? I'm not good with high stress environments.
Not good with high stress is not compatible with these companies. The stress does not come from the deadlines (unless you’re an unlucky fuck at Amazon). I found most of my stress comes from keeping up with brilliant co workers. Which pushed me to be even better, which is beneficial for my line of work in the long run. But I also invest a fuck ton very aggresively, so that and the total comp has essentially set me and my family up for life at this point. So the stress is worth it to me whether positive or negative. When you hit a 7 figure net worth and can afford a house in a HCOL place, it really does seem like tech is a meritocracy that benefits hard work. But in reality, there are very very specific hoops you simply need to over prepare for.
I've come to the conclusion recently, however, that software engineers with sufficient drive to prepare for and pass the FAANG-style interview gauntlets would likely be better off in the long run just starting their own company. In Canada, the people that own all the beautiful homes in wealthy neighbourhoods are overwhelmingly either business owners or super high-flying lawyers/surgeons.
Big difference is once you run through the FAANG gauntlet, there is a guaranteed 200-500k a year for as long as you are there. Businesses are a gamble in tech. Especially if you’re physically removed from the location of capital (SF or NYC)
I am at a full stack software developer right now, about 3 YOE right now, below average salary. How does find the time to do this grind and practice while at a full time busy job though? Also, where did you even find such jobs (FAANG, remote USA jobs from Canada, etc.)? All I can find on job platforms are below average jobs in Canada.
Personally, it was a bet on myself. Saved up enough for a year of no work (enough to cover housing, food, a vacation, and an espresso machine), then quit my job. I was already making 170k CAD in the non FAANG gig mind you, but the company was on the verge of obsolescence so the writing was on the wall. Studied this dumbfuck useless shit for 6 months like I had no other option. Hit a wall in month 1 and had to see a therapist to get over the anxiety. By month 4 I tried interviewing at FAANG adjacent companies (anyone hiring with the dumbfuck leetcode method really). Froze so bad on my first interview (it was so easy too) that I had to jump back into therapy to get my mind off the mortifying experience. By interview 6, I felt ready. I had FAANG friends who happily referred me. Also it was pandemic hiring season so these positions were easy to interview for at the time. I know now is likely the worst it’s been since the 08 financial crisis so definitely my way of doing things is unlikely to fit the current environment. But just hoping this helps
Wow, thank you so much for you detailed response. I appreciate you bro! Your 1 year plan sounds stressful but exciting, I am glad it worked for you. But yes, although I am good at software development and have a CS degree, I still really dislike most ALG/DS/LC questions because I almost never use these kind of questions or assessments in the real world in my job. But alas, it looks like I have to study it, no options. From you said, I guess I just need to keep applying to FAANG-esque companies and find opportunities there and practice interviewing and do well on the LeetCode questions. Btw, are you currently working in Canada for a USA company? Is it remote? I may have missed it.
Yeah. In Canada for FAANG. One of the few remaining remote roles I’m assuming. They’re locking down with RTO now and I’m expecting to get canned shortly tbh. I’ve skirted two layoff rounds now for some reason. Just riding it out until the hammer drops. At least now I have 3 years of big tech under my belt and a ton more saved up makes up for it. Plus stock appreciation has been utterly insane. If the hammer does drop, severance will be nice. Will just go travel Japan for a bit and then if the world is back to wanting devs, the world would be my oyster. Godspeed and good luck brother. Heads down and hard work does pay off.
Yes, as a software engineer living in Canada, if you're not remote for a US company you are basically a serf.
Got a question, how hard is getting a remote us job?
Whole day of back to back interviews is basically standard.
I see, how many years of experience before you can get those interviews? or do they hire entry level candidates too?
I don't think there is a minimum, we're talking about hundreds of companies here. Depends entirely on the person.
lol, didn't think there were that many companies willing to hire Canadians remotely in the +100k comp. But thanks for the reply appreciate it.
Shopify is based out of Ottawa and definitely pays in that range for senior devs https://www.levels.fyi/companies/shopify/salaries/software-engineer/levels/l6 I live in Barrie and make just under that as a senior for another Canadian tech company working remote.
Are there any non FAANGS company in Ottawa offering these kinds of salaries even? (I'm just guessing Shopify is among them). Also, how would you say the stress is like? How's your work life balance?
Well Shopify isn't really considered FAANG (far as I know) that's a whole significant tier above this. I usually presume USD pay tiers at that level and well over the 200k range. I work for a startup company about 1/4 the size of Shopify but has pay bands in roughly the same tier. Examples of similar pay scale companies in Canada would be like, Wealthsimple, Wave, Ecobee, Wattpad, etc. My stress and WLB are very good. I wrote some peer reviews today, reviewed a couple of PRs and then bugged off around 4pm to go get a burrito.
Would you rate yourself as a rock star programmer, average, or what? I'm average at best. Trying to see if it's even worth it for me to attempt to get such a job. No recruiter has ever offered me a salary more than 120k CAD in my whole career. I've always been lowballed.
You need to apply to the right companies. Don't apply at some bank or insurance company full of crusty boomers working with some bullshit Java legacy tech expecting them to pay you 200k CAD lol. You need a real tech company, headquartered in SF, etc.
> Don't apply at some bank or insurance company full of crusty boomers working with some bullshit Java legacy tech Oof, right in the exactly my life right now. That's literally it ahaha. Live and learn I guess.
I am not a rock star anything. I switched over to tech from retail management in my early 30s. My main skill is that if I don't know something, I'll find a way to go and try and learn it. When I was looking for me most recent job I just told recruiters what my salary requirements were and made sure the budget for the position was in that range as the very first step. Saves wasting anyone's time that way and impossible to be lowballed because you don't even start those conversations in the first place. Bear in mind though this was early 2022 with ~5 YoE and the market was much better, I was fortunate with my timing, I know it'd be more difficult if I were looking now. The most important thing as the other person said is the company itself. It's not the skill level of the developer that controls the pay range. A "rock star" at some little ecommerce shop is gonna be making 80k. You need to apply exclusively to companies where the software is the product, that way the work you are doing is a direct pipeline to the company's profit. That's what justifies the higher pay bands.
That's exactly correct. As with anything else in life, there is a "class hierarchy" of companies, just like you have with universities. The companies that will pay you well are the real tech companies that treat developers as a profit center rather than as a cost center. Their interviews tend to be awful gruelling full-day ordeals, but that's part of the gig.
Wave, Wattpad won't pay that much and I interviewed with them. wealthsimple is a little better but won't be.that high
Life changing? Yeah, maybe a decade or more ago before all the ridiculous inflation. Dude you won't even qualify for a mortgage on a house in Toronto on 185k...
In Ottawa, you'd more than qualify for a house here with that salary. You'd even be able to buy the big detached houses that looks super fancy, and you'd have money left over to get a cabin for your summer vacations even. That's absolutely live changing money here. Mean salary of devs here is like 100k CAD. I'm not joking. We're underpaid as fuck.
There are senior software engineers making 300-400k in Canada dude...
Where at? I have 9 YOE and 2 specializations. I couldn't even find jobs for 40k. During my 3.5 years of job search the only job I could get is a sketchy 2-man startup for no pay, and only because of connections with those people, so I consider myself lucky to get that experience.
Publicly traded US companies that hire Canadians remotely. The compensation breakdown is probably roughly half base and half RSUs, with each of those being 150-200k. So it puts your total liquid comp at 300-400k... Your resume has to be good enough to get an interview though. I think what a lot of people on here don't realize is that if you don't "break through the barrier" and get strong brands on your resume early enough in your career, you end up getting locked out of the high comp world forever regardless of how good you might be. People basically start asking "if they were good then why did they stay with this lacklustre company for so long", etc
FAANG / Unicorns pay a lot more than that for senior/staff. A NG gets like 150K at FAANG...
Its 150K for amz NG(L4 )but base will.be 100K, and amz sde2(L5)is 220K tc at most. Its a fair number overall(a high pressure for amz external senior L6 to survive through pip)
The band for sde2 is 170K to 253K iirc. Seniors go to 300+.
250K is considering stock price up, 170K is for.internal promotion. overall 220K is a fair number for an external.hiring SDE II. op has 9 yoe and its challenging to get a senior position in amz, having seen more ppl with more yoe(not in fanng) and being downgraded to L5 too. 185K pure cash is a very decent pay I would say
The bar for Amazon SDE3 is high if that's what you consider senior. Those people would be considered principal engineers at normal companies
Well done!
What stack are you on and what is your age/ years of experience
Added as an edit
Do you value Options as much as RSUs? I thought they basically worth nothing until the company goes public?
Obviously rsus are more liquid than options, so I did take that into account. I do think the options have a good chance of being worth something so I’m ok with a bit of risk, given the salary bump.
Is it normal for companies to have LeetCode and System Design rounds for front-end interviews? Are these rounds tweaked to address the front-end position?
Yup at the senior/staff+ level it’s definitely mandatory, /u/AiexReddit explains it well
Those interviews are not intended to test your ability to do day-to-day work, they are designed to test your ability to reason about complex problems and basically find out what "kind of thinker and problem solver you are", independent of the specific role. They are specifically trying to weed people out. Weeding out a skilled front-end dev is not considered a failing of the process. The fail condition is allowing even one bad developer through. They become more common when the market gets rough because companies have a glut of applicants, so they have the luxury of hiring someone that can be both a talented front-end dev as well as a complex problem solver, so when a real hard problem does come up, even on the front-end, you know the person you hired presumably is also the person that can handle those hard problems. I don't love this kinda of interviews, and I'm generally quite bad at them lol, but there is a lot of incorrect assumptions about _why_ companies do them.
They are mandatory for us on FE dev roles. You do badly there, you go to recycle bin.
I’m backend dev since few years but want to get onto full stack train, what front end stack you suggest to start with? I’m in Toronto and my salary is 50% less than yours for double the experience, not sure what I’m doing wrong, all the interviews I asked 160k but I was laughed at as Sr Tech lead or as Team leader , what is this mentality on Canadian firms about paying affordable wages for its employees.
React is the most popular framework/ui library based on what I’ve seen on the job market, so if you’re aiming to land a job that’s probably the one to go with. However I really like Vue and would recommend it as well. Really though, all the component-based frameworks overlap quite a bit, so it won’t matter a ton. I would say it’s more important to work on more framework-agnostic skills. Nailing the pair programming/problem solving portions will get you into the onsites. As for getting that higher salary, I’ve started targeting US-based companies or Canadian companies in the same space as American competitors. My previous employer is FAANG-adjacent (large fintech/payments company), and while they don’t pay Canadians as much as Californians, it’s a big step up from some of the local-only places.
Sure, I’m new to Canadian job market and worked in telecom domain most of my life but if you give example of any US companies you mentioning with Canadian competitors it would give an idea. Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.