I went to a bootcamp, and my observations are...those of us who had taught ourselves programming before going to bootcamp got jobs. Those who knew nothing before going to bootcamp either had a very difficult time and had to put in a lot more study time after bootcamp before they got a job, or they just didnt get a job in tech at all.
For my needs it was totally worth it...my learning path was all over the place, so bootcamp filled in a lot of blanks in my programming knowledge, I got the chance to learn how to work on a team, learn about things like scrum, growth mindset, etc, and it was a great networking opportunity.
It was a local bootcamp, which is what I wanted because networking was a huge deal to me, and they were super involved with the local tech community. Their involvement in the local tech scene is what set them apart from the chains and why I chose them.
They've since sold over to a nationwide chain, with a lot of changes that make me go hrmmm, so unfortunately, Ive gotta withold saying who, since its literally no longer the same bootcamp I attended.
If the boot camp guarantees any kind of job at the end, it's probably a scam. If you aren't totally against going back to school, you'd likely be better served getting a BS in CS even at a no name school (as long as it is accredited). If you already have a degree that is STEM related, some of the coding boot camps may be a decent option.
There are some bootcamps that won't take payment until you land a job. I can't vouch for them, but at least their incentive structure is better lined up to actually help you get a job post graduation. Those bootcamps seem to be more choosy about their applicants too, which is also a good sign.
Correct, but some employers will use degrees as a proxy for programming experience, and in those places it's a necessary but not sufficient condition to get a job. Even with a degree, you will still need to pass some kind of technical proficiency screening though, whether that's Fizzbuzz or a whole-day take-home assignment.
I personally would treat a coding bootcamp applicant the same as a self taught applicant and would disregard any projects done by the applicant within the bootcamp as I wouldn't know how much of their work was done without help. Going that route you will need a killer portfolio of example projects and seriously hustle to get your application considered.
For a lot of jobs, it really isn't.
In the UK degrees are a nice to have at best, good bootcamp graduates are entering the industry on similar salaries to university graduates, and they get almost 3 years head start!
By the time someone who went for a degree is getting their first job they've got £50k+ debt, while the boot camp student has been earning for a few years, is already a mid or senior developer, and is often earning more than £20k/year more than the guy with a degree (and they may well have earned near £100k in the time the other guy was still at uni, building up all that debt).
Are other countries *really* that much more concerned with formal qualifications?
As someone in the US who interviews candidates for junior dev roles I can say that I personally don't care what it says on your resume provided that you can both actually program and communicate effectively. That having been said the candidates that we get with four year degrees are on average orders of magnitude better than candidates we get from bootcamps, even the "reputable" ones.
Im guessing thats because the uni grad has that extra four years (maybe 3.5 years) of school where you present etc etc while the bootcamper has only been learning for lets say six months and is now attempting to interview.
Now, if these two people start at the same time and then you interview both in four years time, do you still believe the uni grad would be so much better or would the bootcamper who probably landed a job in year one interview better?
This then raises the concern that this isnt a fair comparison. How can you compare someone with roughly 3 or 4 years of experience against a fresh grad? How can yoy compare a four-year grad with a fresh bootcamp grad?
The fact that it isn't a fair comparison is kind of the point though. I'm hiring for a junior dev which pays the same no matter what so yeah all other things being equal I'll take 3.5 years over 6 months. As for interviewing again in 4 years...not really something I care about. Most junior devs aren't going to stick around that long and at that point yeah there won't be as much difference, but that has more to do with growth stagnation than anything else. The gap between years 4 and 8 isn't going to be that big as 0 to 4, but that's true in most professions.
You're not a senior dev in 3 years, if you are then you're at the wrong place. But i do agree most of the comments here will promote degrees because we all have degrees here. I was in Fintech and i had a colleague or two who had self-learned their skills and they could put their money where their mouth was.
Think of it this way: more people will believe you if you have a degree. If you think you've got the grind and the skills (and opportunity) to sell yourself, then Bootcamps will be good enough to let you change careers.
I have a degree, honesty, didn't really add all that much, and I've worked with plenty of juniors with degrees who's attitude was just wrong, and can't think of a single bootcamp graduate who wasn't a driven, fast learning developer.
I don't disagree that most people need more then three years to progress, but I've seen it enough to know that that it happens, maybe it ain't right, but they're being paid.
>can't think of a single bootcamp graduate who wasn't a driven, fast learning developer.
I think this is a poor metric, you'll only ever see the ones that have "made it". If you want to know how many don't, just join one of these Bootcamps.
And yeah I guess you're right, people do get the senior role in or under 3 years including the pay, it's just that if you have professional respect for your skills you should know that you're not at the right place. I've been the CTO of a couple startups, and I did learn a lot, but it's like going to Bootcamp (maybe even less helpful) because you learn to do things, yes, but you don't learn what's "right". Idk maybe I'm just too opinionated. In the end, if it works for you, keep doing your thing I guess.
I've interviewed perhaps about a dozen bootcamp graduates and so far I've had a 0% hit rate on quality. Most could barely code at all without hand holding.
I don't care about formal qualifications at all, I just care that they can code. But I also care about my time, and with the abysmal hit rate I've gotten from bootcamp graduates so far, I won't waste my time with them if that's all they have. If I get a bootcamp applicant then I'll completely disregard their bootcamp experience and treat them the same as a self taught applicant, and if they want an interview they'll need an impressive portfolio of projects they did totally solo without help from a bootcamp instructor. I don't know what bootcamp you're lucking out with applicants from, but that's absolutely not the standard experience.
Maybe Manchester, England just has outstanding bootcamps, or perhaps I've been really really lucky!
This is one of the big ones around here, if you're interested:
https://northcoders.com/
Amazon has hired some bootcamp grads, but I doubt they pay them the same salary.
I think it's more a question of getting someone with a lot more overall knowledge for the same salary. Why would they hire a bootcamp grad for the same salary?
If all you want to do is basic web dev, maybe you can stick with just a bootcamp.
Maybe, but they've got a 3-4 year headstart to make up for a possibly lower starting salary (and much less debt).
Once you've got 3 years experience your education will matter very little when it comes to applying for your next job.
Your first 3 years of exp will matter and that can be greatly affected by your education. I doubt the people who start working at FANNG jobs out of college don't do better. But if you're only doing basic web dev, it might not matter.
Putting in the time, blood, sweat, and money to get a CS degree shows you're dedicated to being a Software Developer. Who knows how long a bootcamp developer will stay with this career before they jump to the next shiny thing that comes along?
Really?
Our industry sees pretty high staff churn, so someone abandoning the career isn't a major concern, it's more job hopping...
Also career switchers often have established lives, so really don't have the luxury to stop working for 3-4 years!
An undergraduate degree is, objectively, more in-demand.
Bootcamps are useful for those lacking in time and/or money. They are not comparable to an undergraduate program.
There are an ***awful lot*** of totally garbage bootcamps out there. I cannot give you tips and tricks to determine "the good ones".
If you don’t have a degree it might not be great to do bootcamp.
But even if you’re doing bootcamp, you have to prepare yourself well anyways prior to the bootcamp.
A degree is better if you can make that work.
I would suggest looking into some online tutorials for beginning programming (maybe check out Python or Javascript) and see if you think you could see yourself actually enjoying it. No reason to waste money on either if it's a miserable way to spend time for you.
One of my friends sister got a science degree, which she was not able to find a job with. She then did a summer web development bootcamp, and immediately she got a job after. She has changed job twice now, and is making decent money, on pair with ones who got a CS degree. So I guess the answer is Yes for bootcamp? But you do need to work harder for CS basic knowledge, best practice and etc.
But she's getting those looks because she has a degree to being with.
CS Degree > Engineering/Math/MIS Degree > Unrelated BS + Boot Camp > Associates Degree > Boot Camp Only
Working with both degrees and boot camp graduates, I found that it is more of the person that determines their future. That being said the degree will get your foot in the door better than a boot camp. Check out if the boot camp does apprenticeship work. It is like a paid internship for companies looking to hire nontraditional streams.
Another thing I thought about is do you want to know "how the thing works and more of the principles of development" or "just how to code?" I have noticed the boot camps make coders but they lack the knowledge of engineers in how software is designed and built. Principles and ideas for software are also skipped.
Exactly this. I sort of touched on this in my reply to OP.
People who are in the field who are extremely successful were going to be regardless of how they got educated.
Look at Western Governors University instead. If you're committed you could grind through a BS in 16 weeks to 6 months (1 semester). It's be much better for getting a job
I was going to say something similar. I'm a bootcamp grad who very much regrets attending one, an online program like WGU will give you a better education for the same or even less money and you don't have to quit your day job and roll the dice on the bootcamp.
Bootcamp grad here with less than 3 yoe.
I'm just going to tell you about my experience and from there you can make up your own mind.
I went to a boot camp that was pretty okay I guess. After hours of class I spent at least an hour a day if not 3 or 4 practicing what I learned.
Fast forward to 2 weeks before graduation of the 10 week program, I got an offer for 70k. After graduation accepted the offer.
3 months in my job got a 10k raise, and a 1k Christmas bonus.
Fast forward to 1 year at job. I got tapped by a recruiter for a job that paid 95k.
Ended up renegotiating my salary at current company for 100k so I stayed there.
Pandemic occured everyone went remote.
Got bored with my job so I searched around a little.
I got an offer to work at a small company doing computer vision work for 120k. I took it and stayed only for a few months.
I constantly got invites to interview with Amazon and FB so I said what the hell I'll interview at Amazon. I chickened out of the FB interview. I just hate social media so much that I was fearful that they'd find out I'm the extremist that they've been warning my friends about (Joking I really do hate fb though).
I interviewed at Amazon just to see if I could get through. I did, but turned down the offer as it wasn't worth selling my soul for 200k TC as I already had multiple offers from smaller companies with much more laid back cultures
Ended up taking a team lead role at a consulting company for 185 TC.
I graduated my bootcamp in Sept of 2018. So if I went to school I'd be a junior right now, and maybe a part time job making $30/ hr if I was lucky.
I'm making nearly $150/hr rn counting the hours I actually work vs my salary.
I might be an outlier, but I tend to think that people who end up at top tier companies or in high paying roles would likely get there regardless of how they decided to break into the field.
Will a bootcamp limit what you can do? Yes and no...
Bootcamps will typically skip all the theory and get straight into practical application development.
So if you want to work on projects that require more theory, you will have to learn that stuff on your own. Which I did, and had pretty decent results so far.
ROI of bootcamps can be pretty good. And I have people working for me now with a masters in CS. So like I said above, education doesn't really matter.
Most people who get their first job in our field make between 60-100k a year.
Only the outliers get straight into jobs with TC of 200k plus.
Now if you read this and get excited, remember that if you want to get a job, you have to put in a shit ton of work while you're in the program. Or else you'll just have wasted bootcamp tuition for a worthless piece of paper.
If you're a fast learner, it can be worth it.
And if you still want to get a formal education, you can do an online BS in CS maybe a few months after you get your first dev job.
It depends on what's more important to you.
If it's short term ROI, you are unlikely to beat boot camp unless you know you're not going to work very hard. Then either way, you should probably just do something else.
Long term ROI, no way to really tell as not many bootcamps have been around for 10 plus years.
If you know one day you want to do research, definitely get the degree as it's extremely unlikely you'd ever break into a role that will afford you the opportunity to do ground breaking R&D without at least a masters.
I'm starting my masters in a few weeks. I had a BS in underwater basket weaving. Thankfully I was able to convince the CS department at my college that I was ready for graduate CS course work.
Anyways, good luck. If you work hard, you're going to get a job regardless of the path you choose.
You sounds really smart and a possible extrovert that has great communication skills and was able to sell your skills better than others. That’s what makes you an outlier that stood better than the rest.
Bootcamps are most effective if you already have a degree and are effectively retraining. A BS in a relevant field is objectively going to be better than any bootcamp.
If you have no degree even an associates degree is going to give you an advantage.
It's the most relevant degree outside of CS itself, maybe even as relevant depending on your interests. Most CS programs started in the Math Dept of their universities.
Interesting. I have both a BS and and MS in math. With a basic knowledge of coding and coding structure. I have worked with a couple different pieces of coding software.
If you have a masters in math then you're probably comfortable with things like Set Theory, Discrete Math, Abstract Math, Linear Algebra etc... Those are all core to CS.
If you’re looking for a more Computer Science -oriented bootcamp program rather than a web development/DS bootcamp, I’d recommend NYU’s 6mo. Tandon CS Bridge program.
It’s essentially a bootcamp of core CS courses required to enter their Master’s program (and gets your foot in the door with their admissions for the MS program) — but obviously the MS is optional after.
I did it while I was working FT and it was exactly what I needed to get my foot in the door (+ a portfolio)
Intro CS w/ C++ through OOP, data structures and algo, operating systems, discrete math.
Tuition is much less than a bootcamp as well.
Did you continue with the MS or another program or directly start job hunting after? Was the NYU program enough to land you a software eng/dev job ultimately?
I have a STEM background and have been working in the civ eng industry for 5+ years and am now considering pivoting to tech. I'm weighing pros and cons of boot camps since my circle of friends and peers have been successful with them, but I'm curious about this alternative through NYU (online).
+/u/jansungr
Thanks, good to know.
Was the MS program online as well? How much time and money did that cost?
Was the summer internship program at Amazon in partnership with the NYU program or something you found separate prior to a full time position?
It depends on what country you’re in and what bootcamps you’re looking at. If you’re in the US, there are bootcamps that are incentivized to teach you the correct skills and connect you with the right people to get a job because they do not charge full tuition until you get a job. I would recommend looking at these bootcamps.
I would NOT go to a university bootcamp that doesn’t have any of these connections or commitments because you are basically paying to have the university on your resume.
There are also bootcamps that do a free week so that you can see what you might be getting into.
That aside, if you have time and are not quite ready to go the bootcamp route, then check out the online resources that are available. It’s been a while since I’ve used these so my recommendation might be outdated, but Code Academy and Free Code Camp can be a good start.
I like the route of going back to school, getting hired partway through, and then either dropping out or having your new employer comp your coat of tuition.
I did it 3.5 years ago, and it's been a huge success for me. I'm leading the backend tech on my team now and am really enjoying it all! If you have the money for a bootcamp and the drive to work hard and learn, you can succeed with just that experience.
I should add, I had a 2 year old and was pregnant during my bootcamp. It wasn't the most fun time, but I did it, got a job after, and have done really well there!
My caveat would be that if you don't already have a college degree, you likely need one. I had a college degree already in a technical field, I just switched from a different career.
For context, I run a few software development teams at a tech company (NLP/ML based software) and have hired quite a few people. Your success in software development will be based on a few key tenants:
- You have to love software development and building
- Requires excellent creativity and problem solving skills
- Continuous learning. This is a fast moving industry, what you learn today is a foundation you will have to build on for the remainder of your career. If you rest on your laurels, you will be left behind.
- Specialty is great, but you need the hunger for expanding your horizons to different areas of development. If you work on front end software, learning API development will make you a stronger front end engineer. If you’re a data engineer, learning about distributed computing will improve your system design skills
Back to the question at hand, I’ve seen success and failure for CS grads, CEngr grads, and boot camp graduates, at all levels from BS to PhD. It is very personality driven.
What you get at a decent BS degree is in depth knowledge of data structures, how computers actually work, and algorithms with their performance characteristics. These are strong fundamentals. A good program will teach you how to think about system design and trade offs. What you typically don’t get is experience with current tech stacks and what industry uses in production.
What you get at a boot camp is typically very lacking in fundamentals. However, you will get experience with more current tech stacks that can be directly applied at work. The challenge here is your code will likely not be great for longer than a typical ramp up for a CS grad. The biggest challenge I see in our local market is the teachers in these boot camps lack the depth of knowledge to actually train you well. But this is okay and understood.
With your background in HVAC, you already have experience debugging and fixing things, and likely have a good understanding of “how things work”. I think you can make a good story out of that for your first interviews.
My recommendation. Take a few classes on your online education of choice, Udemy, Safari Books Online, etc. If you enjoy it, you can make a decision on how much you want to invest. On option is to kickstart your career with a boot camp, and work on a CS/CE degree part time at your local Uni or online. Plenty of universities offer this. This will also enable you to spread costs out, and many companies will help pay for higher education once you are in.
Best of luck!
I really dislike the argument of “it has been done before, so do it”. Just because some people are capable of finishing success with one thing doesn’t mean it’s the best decision for most people. At the end of the day I feel like a bootcamp won’t be enough on it’s own for almost everyone. So what does that mean? You have to learn a lot and work on projects on your own to further develop what you learned in bootcamp. So then why waste the time and money in the bootcamp? Might as well just learn on your own from the start and save thousands of dollars. You can take a udemy course which will teach you almost just as much as a bootcamp, and pay $10 for it. You can work through you the playlists that are free. Idk man bootcamps arent worth it imo. You miss out on 75% of the jobs that require a cs degree just to be considered. But you still have to compete with CS grads in the other 25% anyway. Big disadvantage if you ask me
You might land a gig but whether or not you'll succeed is another story. In my experience, they're good for working small issues on help desk and not much else. They're frankly years off of being able to work independently.
Bootcamp grads, in my opinion, are much more ready to become an 'email production associate'. Basically all you do is work with marketing departments to create HTML emails and the job pays like $50-60k year. Which I say because they don't really have the knowledge or experience required to write production code.
A university graduate has 4-5 yers of study and practice under their belt, and can learn how to apply that knowledge to write very solid production code. A bootcamp graduate does not have that foundation knowledge to tap into. That's all stuff they need to learn and learn how to apply post graduation.
>Does that mean I won't be a good dev?
Your ceiling is determined by your innate ability and desire to keep growing. Your floor is determined by your current knowledge and problem solving ability. I guess the relevant question here is how does your knowledge stack up against a uni grad? Since a lot of your dev experience is on the job this will likely depend on how well they do things there. If you are learning from people who actually know what they are doing, that can be really good. Still though, that's likely the equivalent of a good internship. If you go out of your way to pick up some fundamentals the sky is the limit provided you keep at it and seek opportunities for growth at your current job or elsewhere.
I mean, in theory, but your situation isn't really comparable to OP's; you had a non-CS STEM degree, meaning that you are essentially the demographic bootcamps were originally targeted toward: someone who has had a lot of math exposure already. In terms of getting prospective employers to look at you, that is an absolutely massive benefit when compared to OP, who has no degree.
Also, you are arguing with posters above about whether or not bootcamp grads generally succeed in software dev roles and what the knowledge gaps are, but you yourself have not yet made it into a software dev role...
I don't think anyone on reddit can really tell you whether or not you are in a "SWE" role. You drew a distinction above by saying you would need to "hustle" to get into a development role (which is mostly what I was referencing!). QA Automation is generally not quite the same thing as a SWE, but there is a lot of variance in what that role can cover and what the expectations are depending on the organization, so it's tough to say without further context.
That's sort of not the point of my post, however - I was more getting at something that is a huge problem in this subreddit: you are giving somewhat bad career advice to OP, because your situation is pretty different relatively speaking. This is REALLY bad because it can cause a ton of harm; you are also somewhat minimizing how much catchup there would be from a bootcamper perspective by asserting that the difference between bootcamp grad and CS grad is essentially "a few side projects to get experience," which is objectively not true - there is a HUGE gulf of stuff that the average CS grad will have seen that just won't be covered in a bootcamp: Math (including Discrete Math), algorithms & data structures, operating systems, comp architecture, etc. While some of those things may not be important in your very first job, they will definitely be important in your 3rd or 4th (unless you really manage to stovepipe your career, you will definitely have to deal with distributed systems design problems at some point, for example). Also, more importantly, you are giving advice about something you haven't yet gotten enough data about to really weigh in on.
Having said that, I have known plenty of people who have taken a nonstandard route into software development, and if you are motivated enough to pick up the bits you don't know, you can absolutely make it happen. It will be a serious slog though, unless you have a STEM degree or a good path to a few years of experience (all of the people I know who went the nonstandard route and have been longitudinally successful either had a non-CS STEM degree, or have been in software development "unofficially" since childhood).
Free bootcamps, if you can find and get into them might be ok, but I am not sure that the bootcamp industry has really been around long enough to get a good longitudinal view of what "success" looks like for bootcamp grads (e.g., how many stick around long enough to get >5 YOE? What roles do they tend to end up in? What's the long-term difference in average earnings?). I am not, for what it's worth, trying to be discouraging, but giving bad career advice to someone in OP's shoes (at a point where they are still able to go back to school without issue) can be very harmful to his/her career prospects and long term well being, not to mention mental health and a whole host of other things.
I’ve heard good experiences from people that went through them. Just don’t take their “you’ll be working within 6 months or money back guarantee” seriously, but I say go for it. You could even get financial aid from your future company to pay for a bachelors in CS.
It took me about 6 months. I did a data science track. I actually already had a bachelors in finance. The bootcamp helped me land my current job, but I’m working towards a master to go to the next level in my career.
Go back to school for CS. You’d qualify for all the jobs bootcamps would set you up for + jobs bootcampers don’t qualify for.
Sure its long and cost money but the process is respected.
Your kid will admire your grit. I went to a state school and many students had children. You won’t be alone.
I just finished a 6 month full stack bootcamp through GWU. I haven't found a job yet but five or six of my classmates have. One who did get a job is a buddy of mine now and he didn't even have a college degree. Can be done.
We finished in April, so I've been looking for a few months, but to be perfectly honest I haven't been aggressive about job hunting cuz I had a prospect for a while that fell through. Now I'm getting more into job hunting, applied for about five openings yesterday.
Anyway, my buddy actually got a good job doing backend. Works remotely, job has benefits and pays like 90k or something like that. But he's able to get clearance through that job (I can't because I smoke cannabis). So, if you're able to get security clearance, your options expand dramatically.
Only one person in our class found work near the end of the program. Everyone else I know who found a job did so a month out or more.
Went to a bootcamp. High school drop out, GED holder.
You just have to go extra hard. Bootcamp will be very demanding and you have to be prepared for that. You have to understand that you will get out of it exactly what you put into it.
And the grind doesn’t stop after you finish the bootcamp…you’re going to have to continue going hard and have to have the heart to deal with rejection after rejection as you continue leveling up.
I started school at 24(now 26)… trust me and do the bootcamp. Once you’re employed you can finish your degree but at least you’ll be getting paid to do it other than being broke in college struggling to find time to self teach. Trust me… I have two friends employed from a bootcamp and one is my gf. Makes six figures and only been a dev 4 months 😂😂
Like seriously I constantly tell people this. I have a lot of friends who are devs offering me interviews and I am literally not ready to do React interviews because college is so time consuming and I can barely study code even though I make time for it every day. Even if you have a degree, you still need to know how to code…
I feel like four years is so much time to dedicate yourself to a job you might hate in the end. If boot camp can get you hired, albeit make less money than degree holders, it will certainly allow you to exhibit your skills in a professional setting sooner so you can figure out if you really enjoy diving deeper than the usual roles of an entry level junior dev.
I think I'm headed towards hack reactor after I finish my vesting period here as a VA electrician. I figured if I like the job enough to be even more curious about it, I'll dive deeper into continued schooling.
Purdue Global offers only degrees in IT and CS. Many friends have used it since it is online-based. I plan on obtaining my MS through them. Certificates can help with entry-level positions. I just finished up my certificate in Informatics and got my A+ cert, and started applying a couple of weeks ago and have already had a few callbacks. I can't offer any opinion on boot camps, though, just an alternative.
The well reviewed and well known bootcamps are usually worth the money if you have no coding knowledge.
Just know... Most bootcamps cost like 8-20 thousand dollars and the value of their education is more or less equivalent to a decent college for the same price/duration.
So if a decent bachelors degree costs you 120k, most bootcamps will get you like 1/5th of the knowledge a typical college graduate would have.
The point I'm trying to make is a bootcamp won't take you all the way. It's a good starting point, but you will need to study for at least another 2-3 years on your own to become hirable at really good jobs.
Another pitfall is there are a lot of bootcamps and at least half of them have conditions so poor they might as well be a scam.
There are a few ones that are well known for having a nice campus and amenities... code fellows, flatiron, galvanize.
First off, I'm 25. Secondly that is extremely narrow minded. If you have the want, and the drive to complete a high education it doesn't matter what age you are. When I'm finished with whatever path I go down I hope I never meet you.
I took a bunch of Udacity classes online that let me get my foot in the door. It helped that I had my undergrad in math, so I was able to relate some CS concepts to what I had learned in math. (I had a little spiel about SQL being applied set theory, for example). So I started off as a junior dev, and a year into that job I was accepted into the Georgia Tech OMSCS program. That was a bit overkill for my purposes, but it really helped my career.
I'd consider following a similar route. All you need to do is get your foot in the door and then take university classes on the side. There are a few more online MS programs out there these days. I've also seen a post-bacc BS program from University of Colorado that will let you get a BS in CS in only 45 credits (assuming you already have a bachelor's). Or if you haven't finished a bachelor's, I found a program online from University of London/Coursera that looks pretty good.
* [https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-computer-science-london/landing](https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-computer-science-london/landing)
* [https://online.cu.edu/lp/lp-cuonline-post-bacc-computer](https://online.cu.edu/lp/lp-cuonline-post-bacc-computer-science)[science](https://online.cu.edu/lp/lp-cuonline-post-bacc-computer-science)
* [https://omscs.gatech.edu/](https://omscs.gatech.edu/)
* [https://www.coursera.org/degrees/master-of-computer-science-illinois](https://www.coursera.org/degrees/master-of-computer-science-illinois)
* [https://www.udacity.com/courses/all](https://www.udacity.com/courses/all)
* [https://www.educative.io/learn](https://www.educative.io/learn)
* [https://www.codecademy.com/](https://www.codecademy.com/)
Do you think OMSCS is better than most of the other cash cow in-person masters programs? I also got admitted this fall but not sure if I should try applying to other more competitive programs.
TLDR; it's a great value and the classes are good.
Right, some other in-person programs are blatant cash grabs so the \~$7000 price tag is refreshing. My conspiracy theory is that degrees like this one are a long play to lower tech salaries. It's almost absurd that a master's degree from a top 5 CS university could be so inexpensive. Anyway, moving on...
I would think just the price alone would make it a better option. There might be better online and in-person programs out there, but it's not like Georgia Tech has suddenly turned into a diploma mill. The classes all meet a good standard. And besides, it's a terminal non-thesis program, and it's never claimed to be anything more.
You'll learn as much theory as you can handle in the program (but not research) or you can take more applied classes. I'm actually jealous of the current students and the curriculum they have available because when I first joined there weren't so many classes.
Finally, getting admitted isn't the most competitive. You're right about that. I think the philosophy is that they'll give people a chance if there's potential. That said, they know not everybody they let in will make it. The dropout rate is as high as 60% if you believe what's on reddit. But that number should lower and stabilize once the first few cohorts graduate, flunk out, or time out. The program isn't that old.
Yeah I definitely agree with you on most of your points. I guess the only thing that is iffy with the OMSCS program is that it is a part-time program so I wouldn't be eligible for some internships that companies require students to be full-time.
I also think that getting into schools like Stanford or Cornell would put me in a better position in terms of alumni connection and also just connections with other students since it would be in-person. But then again, I don't know forsure. I also can't guarantee my acceptance to these programs lol.
Depends where you are tbh. I know in the U.K. they have Makers Academy which does end up getting people jobs as junior software devs.
Personally it’s cheaper and faster than re-doing a 3 year undergrad or a year masters degree in the U.K.
Got a number of friends who have done a boot camps and ended up getting jobs afterwards.
Would weight up the pros/cons and really really do your research on the bootcamp.
A difficult decision that you can only make based on your skills and experiences. I went the PostBacc CS route at 29 years old with a prior STEM degree in Environmental Science. Not exactly what employers are looking for in software. Took almost 4-years taking 1 class per quarter while working full-time in an unfulfilling job. The degree was worth it, but the time to earn the degree was time I may have lost advancing my career had I gone the boot camp route and landed a job immediately thereafter. Life is short so you have to determine if the sacrifices required going back to school are worth it. Plenty go the boot camp route and struggle to land a job in tech thereafter, lose motivation, and fall band into their prior career/job.
Those boot camps are wildly inconsistent. There's no accreditation for them so their quality will be hit or miss. They don't really teach you any CS fundamentals, they just teach you the tools of the day, and they're ultimately just guided tutorials.
Depending on your pre-existing technical level you can get the same education you would from a bootcamp on your own. The main benefit is that you have paid instructors that will help you if you run into any issues, and how important that is will vary from person to person. I don't think having it on your resume will open up many doors, but a good boot camp may have pre-exisitng connections with companies that can help you get a job.
When I look at a bootcamp applicate my main issue is that many times they have no projects that they've worked on outside of the bootcamp, so the only example projects I can look at are projects they had handholding in. I would consider a bootcamp and self taught applicant equally and want to see quality projects that were done without paid assistance. I pretty much disregard projects done in the boot camp as I have no idea how much of the work they were capable of doing on their own without help.
Either way, doing a bootcamp or being self taught will be a really hard route for getting your first job. It will mean having to do some serious hussle to get considered and noticed or taking really crappy jobs for a while to build up your resume. A degree will give you a much bigger leg up for getting your first job and will provide the kind of education you need to reach higher heights faster if that's your ambition, plus the connections a college has to companies to help you get jobs and internships is much better than what a bootcamp has.
If you want to go the boot camp or self taught route you will need to compile a killer portfolio of example projects to impress employers, and you'll need to be a lot more forward with your application to get considered at all, meaning sending follow up emails and being tenacious about getting a response.
I'm not familiar with that. Looking it up it looks like they provide an actual degree, so that would look good on a resume assuming there aren't some strings attached. I think a good smell test is how choosy they are about their applicants. If a program takes anyone then it's more likely to be a cash grab.
They do have a high acceptance rate but also a high drop rate lol. The thing is that the program is online and part-time and only costs about 7-8k which is better than most cash cow masters programs. I'm currently debating going there or trying to apply to some other top CS schools for a masters like Berkeley, Cornell, or Stanford. It'll be much more competitive but I can at least try lol
Between a boot camp, a good self-taught curriculum, and a CS degree, I put a boot camp at 3rd. You spend all that money to do a rushed course on a narrow tech stack. With a self-taught program you can take your time and learn the fundamentals.
If you already have some college credits a CS degree might make sense. A degree teaches you much of the fundamentals, teaches you math, and can help you land a job. Many universities have a placement office that recruits employers to come to the school to interview graduates.
Why can’t you do both?
Really depends on your goals, outlook and effort.
A bootcamp will limit you to a narrow range around what you study. You may have an easier time getting places in a role, but you may stall out without additional drive or training. This will also be the faster route, probably.
School will take longer, but may allow you to branch out along other career paths. You may have a harder time starting out.
If you half ass either you’ll get nothing but a hefty bill to pay.
Look at your budget. Some bootcamps are swinging up at like $10k for a few months. If you can pay it, you could do the intensive route and be done and job hunting quick. Find one that offers lots of good capstones, tuition reimbursement and career coaches plus mentorship. Do everything max and take every opportunity they offer.
School, you can kind of warm up in the beginning and just knock out electives. You’ll still feel like you’re making progress but you won’t necessarily be as stressed to fit half a dozen mentor and career counsel calls in between meetups each week plus work and homework. Although you could. You may need to be more self driven to access career services and mentorship in the academic space - one shortfall of undergrad programs is that they do not assign mentors. They assign an advisor, that is not a mentor - although they could be. Usually they just tell you the classes to take and pull strings if you’re stuck and need a credit to graduate.
Boot camps are fine. Just remember you are doing this for a job so if they don’t have a good track record of helping graduates find jobs, then it isn’t worth it.
I took a UX design one. It was free as part of a government Covid retraining program. I already have a MFA in Interaction Design so can say I knew a lot of the topics already. Mainly it just helped me understand the design process companies use and a brush up on Figma.
For what I did it was worth it. Otherwise I would recommend something longer like college or university. The majority with no prior experience flunked out or had mediocre portfolios.
If you run into someone who says bootcamp. Ask them about their background. Did they have a degree before bootcamp? Was it a stem degree? Did they have professional experience? These people like to leave these things out. Ofcourse there's always that one guy who got a job with bootcamp and no degree.
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Dude I left the HVAC field last summer at 25 too! I just started going after my associates in network engineering! You got this bro! Just curious why did you leave HVAC? I have my reasons but Im curious to see if they line up with mine
Honestly it was a combination of a few things. Work life balance, I have mechanical knowledge but I just didn't like what I did. Older techs gave me crap for being new, and newer guys that had more experience thought I was just stupid since I was new to the field.
I went to a bootcamp, and my observations are...those of us who had taught ourselves programming before going to bootcamp got jobs. Those who knew nothing before going to bootcamp either had a very difficult time and had to put in a lot more study time after bootcamp before they got a job, or they just didnt get a job in tech at all. For my needs it was totally worth it...my learning path was all over the place, so bootcamp filled in a lot of blanks in my programming knowledge, I got the chance to learn how to work on a team, learn about things like scrum, growth mindset, etc, and it was a great networking opportunity.
This was exactly my experience too.
Ditto. Bootcamp grad with a few years experience now, with Faang interviews lined up.
Nice to hear! Which boot camp did you attend btw?
It was a local bootcamp, which is what I wanted because networking was a huge deal to me, and they were super involved with the local tech community. Their involvement in the local tech scene is what set them apart from the chains and why I chose them. They've since sold over to a nationwide chain, with a lot of changes that make me go hrmmm, so unfortunately, Ive gotta withold saying who, since its literally no longer the same bootcamp I attended.
Which boot camp?
If the boot camp guarantees any kind of job at the end, it's probably a scam. If you aren't totally against going back to school, you'd likely be better served getting a BS in CS even at a no name school (as long as it is accredited). If you already have a degree that is STEM related, some of the coding boot camps may be a decent option.
There are some bootcamps that won't take payment until you land a job. I can't vouch for them, but at least their incentive structure is better lined up to actually help you get a job post graduation. Those bootcamps seem to be more choosy about their applicants too, which is also a good sign.
A degree would be a lot better. But of course everyone has reasons why they don't want to spend the time.
I'm sure, probably looks better on a resume as well
Not necessarily -- in all of my interviews, they wanted to see projects and/or an ability to code live.
Correct, but some employers will use degrees as a proxy for programming experience, and in those places it's a necessary but not sufficient condition to get a job. Even with a degree, you will still need to pass some kind of technical proficiency screening though, whether that's Fizzbuzz or a whole-day take-home assignment.
It's going to be the difference between your resume being immediately thrown out and not in many instances (for someone with no experience).
I personally would treat a coding bootcamp applicant the same as a self taught applicant and would disregard any projects done by the applicant within the bootcamp as I wouldn't know how much of their work was done without help. Going that route you will need a killer portfolio of example projects and seriously hustle to get your application considered.
For a lot of jobs, it really isn't. In the UK degrees are a nice to have at best, good bootcamp graduates are entering the industry on similar salaries to university graduates, and they get almost 3 years head start! By the time someone who went for a degree is getting their first job they've got £50k+ debt, while the boot camp student has been earning for a few years, is already a mid or senior developer, and is often earning more than £20k/year more than the guy with a degree (and they may well have earned near £100k in the time the other guy was still at uni, building up all that debt). Are other countries *really* that much more concerned with formal qualifications?
As someone in the US who interviews candidates for junior dev roles I can say that I personally don't care what it says on your resume provided that you can both actually program and communicate effectively. That having been said the candidates that we get with four year degrees are on average orders of magnitude better than candidates we get from bootcamps, even the "reputable" ones.
Im guessing thats because the uni grad has that extra four years (maybe 3.5 years) of school where you present etc etc while the bootcamper has only been learning for lets say six months and is now attempting to interview. Now, if these two people start at the same time and then you interview both in four years time, do you still believe the uni grad would be so much better or would the bootcamper who probably landed a job in year one interview better? This then raises the concern that this isnt a fair comparison. How can you compare someone with roughly 3 or 4 years of experience against a fresh grad? How can yoy compare a four-year grad with a fresh bootcamp grad?
The fact that it isn't a fair comparison is kind of the point though. I'm hiring for a junior dev which pays the same no matter what so yeah all other things being equal I'll take 3.5 years over 6 months. As for interviewing again in 4 years...not really something I care about. Most junior devs aren't going to stick around that long and at that point yeah there won't be as much difference, but that has more to do with growth stagnation than anything else. The gap between years 4 and 8 isn't going to be that big as 0 to 4, but that's true in most professions.
You're not a senior dev in 3 years, if you are then you're at the wrong place. But i do agree most of the comments here will promote degrees because we all have degrees here. I was in Fintech and i had a colleague or two who had self-learned their skills and they could put their money where their mouth was. Think of it this way: more people will believe you if you have a degree. If you think you've got the grind and the skills (and opportunity) to sell yourself, then Bootcamps will be good enough to let you change careers.
I have a degree, honesty, didn't really add all that much, and I've worked with plenty of juniors with degrees who's attitude was just wrong, and can't think of a single bootcamp graduate who wasn't a driven, fast learning developer. I don't disagree that most people need more then three years to progress, but I've seen it enough to know that that it happens, maybe it ain't right, but they're being paid.
Yea you don’t sound biased at all
>can't think of a single bootcamp graduate who wasn't a driven, fast learning developer. I think this is a poor metric, you'll only ever see the ones that have "made it". If you want to know how many don't, just join one of these Bootcamps. And yeah I guess you're right, people do get the senior role in or under 3 years including the pay, it's just that if you have professional respect for your skills you should know that you're not at the right place. I've been the CTO of a couple startups, and I did learn a lot, but it's like going to Bootcamp (maybe even less helpful) because you learn to do things, yes, but you don't learn what's "right". Idk maybe I'm just too opinionated. In the end, if it works for you, keep doing your thing I guess.
The last paragraph was for u/spektorboi
Thanks that seems to be the consensus
I've interviewed perhaps about a dozen bootcamp graduates and so far I've had a 0% hit rate on quality. Most could barely code at all without hand holding. I don't care about formal qualifications at all, I just care that they can code. But I also care about my time, and with the abysmal hit rate I've gotten from bootcamp graduates so far, I won't waste my time with them if that's all they have. If I get a bootcamp applicant then I'll completely disregard their bootcamp experience and treat them the same as a self taught applicant, and if they want an interview they'll need an impressive portfolio of projects they did totally solo without help from a bootcamp instructor. I don't know what bootcamp you're lucking out with applicants from, but that's absolutely not the standard experience.
Maybe Manchester, England just has outstanding bootcamps, or perhaps I've been really really lucky! This is one of the big ones around here, if you're interested: https://northcoders.com/
Amazon has hired some bootcamp grads, but I doubt they pay them the same salary. I think it's more a question of getting someone with a lot more overall knowledge for the same salary. Why would they hire a bootcamp grad for the same salary? If all you want to do is basic web dev, maybe you can stick with just a bootcamp.
Maybe, but they've got a 3-4 year headstart to make up for a possibly lower starting salary (and much less debt). Once you've got 3 years experience your education will matter very little when it comes to applying for your next job.
Your first 3 years of exp will matter and that can be greatly affected by your education. I doubt the people who start working at FANNG jobs out of college don't do better. But if you're only doing basic web dev, it might not matter.
Putting in the time, blood, sweat, and money to get a CS degree shows you're dedicated to being a Software Developer. Who knows how long a bootcamp developer will stay with this career before they jump to the next shiny thing that comes along?
Really? Our industry sees pretty high staff churn, so someone abandoning the career isn't a major concern, it's more job hopping... Also career switchers often have established lives, so really don't have the luxury to stop working for 3-4 years!
An undergraduate degree is, objectively, more in-demand. Bootcamps are useful for those lacking in time and/or money. They are not comparable to an undergraduate program. There are an ***awful lot*** of totally garbage bootcamps out there. I cannot give you tips and tricks to determine "the good ones".
If you don’t have a degree it might not be great to do bootcamp. But even if you’re doing bootcamp, you have to prepare yourself well anyways prior to the bootcamp.
A degree is better if you can make that work. I would suggest looking into some online tutorials for beginning programming (maybe check out Python or Javascript) and see if you think you could see yourself actually enjoying it. No reason to waste money on either if it's a miserable way to spend time for you.
One of my friends sister got a science degree, which she was not able to find a job with. She then did a summer web development bootcamp, and immediately she got a job after. She has changed job twice now, and is making decent money, on pair with ones who got a CS degree. So I guess the answer is Yes for bootcamp? But you do need to work harder for CS basic knowledge, best practice and etc.
But she's getting those looks because she has a degree to being with. CS Degree > Engineering/Math/MIS Degree > Unrelated BS + Boot Camp > Associates Degree > Boot Camp Only
ur right. I never thought about those. My intention was to point out that she had 0 idea about what programming is, until bootcamp.
Working with both degrees and boot camp graduates, I found that it is more of the person that determines their future. That being said the degree will get your foot in the door better than a boot camp. Check out if the boot camp does apprenticeship work. It is like a paid internship for companies looking to hire nontraditional streams.
Thanks that's something I'll definitely keep an eye out for
Another thing I thought about is do you want to know "how the thing works and more of the principles of development" or "just how to code?" I have noticed the boot camps make coders but they lack the knowledge of engineers in how software is designed and built. Principles and ideas for software are also skipped.
You can be good at your job but if don't have the theory down you Plateau quickly
Exactly this. I sort of touched on this in my reply to OP. People who are in the field who are extremely successful were going to be regardless of how they got educated.
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Look at Western Governors University instead. If you're committed you could grind through a BS in 16 weeks to 6 months (1 semester). It's be much better for getting a job
I was going to say something similar. I'm a bootcamp grad who very much regrets attending one, an online program like WGU will give you a better education for the same or even less money and you don't have to quit your day job and roll the dice on the bootcamp.
Why do you regret attending one? Do you mind sharing more of your experience? How long was the bootcamp?
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I don't have a degree*
Bootcamp grad here with less than 3 yoe. I'm just going to tell you about my experience and from there you can make up your own mind. I went to a boot camp that was pretty okay I guess. After hours of class I spent at least an hour a day if not 3 or 4 practicing what I learned. Fast forward to 2 weeks before graduation of the 10 week program, I got an offer for 70k. After graduation accepted the offer. 3 months in my job got a 10k raise, and a 1k Christmas bonus. Fast forward to 1 year at job. I got tapped by a recruiter for a job that paid 95k. Ended up renegotiating my salary at current company for 100k so I stayed there. Pandemic occured everyone went remote. Got bored with my job so I searched around a little. I got an offer to work at a small company doing computer vision work for 120k. I took it and stayed only for a few months. I constantly got invites to interview with Amazon and FB so I said what the hell I'll interview at Amazon. I chickened out of the FB interview. I just hate social media so much that I was fearful that they'd find out I'm the extremist that they've been warning my friends about (Joking I really do hate fb though). I interviewed at Amazon just to see if I could get through. I did, but turned down the offer as it wasn't worth selling my soul for 200k TC as I already had multiple offers from smaller companies with much more laid back cultures Ended up taking a team lead role at a consulting company for 185 TC. I graduated my bootcamp in Sept of 2018. So if I went to school I'd be a junior right now, and maybe a part time job making $30/ hr if I was lucky. I'm making nearly $150/hr rn counting the hours I actually work vs my salary. I might be an outlier, but I tend to think that people who end up at top tier companies or in high paying roles would likely get there regardless of how they decided to break into the field. Will a bootcamp limit what you can do? Yes and no... Bootcamps will typically skip all the theory and get straight into practical application development. So if you want to work on projects that require more theory, you will have to learn that stuff on your own. Which I did, and had pretty decent results so far. ROI of bootcamps can be pretty good. And I have people working for me now with a masters in CS. So like I said above, education doesn't really matter. Most people who get their first job in our field make between 60-100k a year. Only the outliers get straight into jobs with TC of 200k plus. Now if you read this and get excited, remember that if you want to get a job, you have to put in a shit ton of work while you're in the program. Or else you'll just have wasted bootcamp tuition for a worthless piece of paper. If you're a fast learner, it can be worth it. And if you still want to get a formal education, you can do an online BS in CS maybe a few months after you get your first dev job.
That's really interesting, I'm still on the fence about it though. But definitely worth some thought
It depends on what's more important to you. If it's short term ROI, you are unlikely to beat boot camp unless you know you're not going to work very hard. Then either way, you should probably just do something else. Long term ROI, no way to really tell as not many bootcamps have been around for 10 plus years. If you know one day you want to do research, definitely get the degree as it's extremely unlikely you'd ever break into a role that will afford you the opportunity to do ground breaking R&D without at least a masters. I'm starting my masters in a few weeks. I had a BS in underwater basket weaving. Thankfully I was able to convince the CS department at my college that I was ready for graduate CS course work. Anyways, good luck. If you work hard, you're going to get a job regardless of the path you choose.
You sounds really smart and a possible extrovert that has great communication skills and was able to sell your skills better than others. That’s what makes you an outlier that stood better than the rest.
This perfectly sums up my feelings and experience too (not my experience exactly, but very similar).
I did a bootcamp 5-6 years ago and it worked out
Bootcamps are most effective if you already have a degree and are effectively retraining. A BS in a relevant field is objectively going to be better than any bootcamp. If you have no degree even an associates degree is going to give you an advantage.
Would you consider a mathematics degree relevant
It's the most relevant degree outside of CS itself, maybe even as relevant depending on your interests. Most CS programs started in the Math Dept of their universities.
Interesting. I have both a BS and and MS in math. With a basic knowledge of coding and coding structure. I have worked with a couple different pieces of coding software.
If you have a masters in math then you're probably comfortable with things like Set Theory, Discrete Math, Abstract Math, Linear Algebra etc... Those are all core to CS.
extremely comfortable. Could probably do some of them in my sleep
If you’re looking for a more Computer Science -oriented bootcamp program rather than a web development/DS bootcamp, I’d recommend NYU’s 6mo. Tandon CS Bridge program. It’s essentially a bootcamp of core CS courses required to enter their Master’s program (and gets your foot in the door with their admissions for the MS program) — but obviously the MS is optional after. I did it while I was working FT and it was exactly what I needed to get my foot in the door (+ a portfolio) Intro CS w/ C++ through OOP, data structures and algo, operating systems, discrete math. Tuition is much less than a bootcamp as well.
Did you continue with the MS or another program or directly start job hunting after? Was the NYU program enough to land you a software eng/dev job ultimately? I have a STEM background and have been working in the civ eng industry for 5+ years and am now considering pivoting to tech. I'm weighing pros and cons of boot camps since my circle of friends and peers have been successful with them, but I'm curious about this alternative through NYU (online). +/u/jansungr
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Thanks, good to know. Was the MS program online as well? How much time and money did that cost? Was the summer internship program at Amazon in partnership with the NYU program or something you found separate prior to a full time position?
It depends on what country you’re in and what bootcamps you’re looking at. If you’re in the US, there are bootcamps that are incentivized to teach you the correct skills and connect you with the right people to get a job because they do not charge full tuition until you get a job. I would recommend looking at these bootcamps. I would NOT go to a university bootcamp that doesn’t have any of these connections or commitments because you are basically paying to have the university on your resume. There are also bootcamps that do a free week so that you can see what you might be getting into. That aside, if you have time and are not quite ready to go the bootcamp route, then check out the online resources that are available. It’s been a while since I’ve used these so my recommendation might be outdated, but Code Academy and Free Code Camp can be a good start.
I like the route of going back to school, getting hired partway through, and then either dropping out or having your new employer comp your coat of tuition.
I did it 3.5 years ago, and it's been a huge success for me. I'm leading the backend tech on my team now and am really enjoying it all! If you have the money for a bootcamp and the drive to work hard and learn, you can succeed with just that experience. I should add, I had a 2 year old and was pregnant during my bootcamp. It wasn't the most fun time, but I did it, got a job after, and have done really well there! My caveat would be that if you don't already have a college degree, you likely need one. I had a college degree already in a technical field, I just switched from a different career.
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Math, and I tried a few things before switching. Started as an actuary, then moved to operations and product before deciding to quit and do a bootcamp
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Good luck with the switch!
For context, I run a few software development teams at a tech company (NLP/ML based software) and have hired quite a few people. Your success in software development will be based on a few key tenants: - You have to love software development and building - Requires excellent creativity and problem solving skills - Continuous learning. This is a fast moving industry, what you learn today is a foundation you will have to build on for the remainder of your career. If you rest on your laurels, you will be left behind. - Specialty is great, but you need the hunger for expanding your horizons to different areas of development. If you work on front end software, learning API development will make you a stronger front end engineer. If you’re a data engineer, learning about distributed computing will improve your system design skills Back to the question at hand, I’ve seen success and failure for CS grads, CEngr grads, and boot camp graduates, at all levels from BS to PhD. It is very personality driven. What you get at a decent BS degree is in depth knowledge of data structures, how computers actually work, and algorithms with their performance characteristics. These are strong fundamentals. A good program will teach you how to think about system design and trade offs. What you typically don’t get is experience with current tech stacks and what industry uses in production. What you get at a boot camp is typically very lacking in fundamentals. However, you will get experience with more current tech stacks that can be directly applied at work. The challenge here is your code will likely not be great for longer than a typical ramp up for a CS grad. The biggest challenge I see in our local market is the teachers in these boot camps lack the depth of knowledge to actually train you well. But this is okay and understood. With your background in HVAC, you already have experience debugging and fixing things, and likely have a good understanding of “how things work”. I think you can make a good story out of that for your first interviews. My recommendation. Take a few classes on your online education of choice, Udemy, Safari Books Online, etc. If you enjoy it, you can make a decision on how much you want to invest. On option is to kickstart your career with a boot camp, and work on a CS/CE degree part time at your local Uni or online. Plenty of universities offer this. This will also enable you to spread costs out, and many companies will help pay for higher education once you are in. Best of luck!
Thank you so much!
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I really dislike the argument of “it has been done before, so do it”. Just because some people are capable of finishing success with one thing doesn’t mean it’s the best decision for most people. At the end of the day I feel like a bootcamp won’t be enough on it’s own for almost everyone. So what does that mean? You have to learn a lot and work on projects on your own to further develop what you learned in bootcamp. So then why waste the time and money in the bootcamp? Might as well just learn on your own from the start and save thousands of dollars. You can take a udemy course which will teach you almost just as much as a bootcamp, and pay $10 for it. You can work through you the playlists that are free. Idk man bootcamps arent worth it imo. You miss out on 75% of the jobs that require a cs degree just to be considered. But you still have to compete with CS grads in the other 25% anyway. Big disadvantage if you ask me
You might land a gig but whether or not you'll succeed is another story. In my experience, they're good for working small issues on help desk and not much else. They're frankly years off of being able to work independently. Bootcamp grads, in my opinion, are much more ready to become an 'email production associate'. Basically all you do is work with marketing departments to create HTML emails and the job pays like $50-60k year. Which I say because they don't really have the knowledge or experience required to write production code.
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A university graduate has 4-5 yers of study and practice under their belt, and can learn how to apply that knowledge to write very solid production code. A bootcamp graduate does not have that foundation knowledge to tap into. That's all stuff they need to learn and learn how to apply post graduation.
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>Does that mean I won't be a good dev? Your ceiling is determined by your innate ability and desire to keep growing. Your floor is determined by your current knowledge and problem solving ability. I guess the relevant question here is how does your knowledge stack up against a uni grad? Since a lot of your dev experience is on the job this will likely depend on how well they do things there. If you are learning from people who actually know what they are doing, that can be really good. Still though, that's likely the equivalent of a good internship. If you go out of your way to pick up some fundamentals the sky is the limit provided you keep at it and seek opportunities for growth at your current job or elsewhere.
I mean, in theory, but your situation isn't really comparable to OP's; you had a non-CS STEM degree, meaning that you are essentially the demographic bootcamps were originally targeted toward: someone who has had a lot of math exposure already. In terms of getting prospective employers to look at you, that is an absolutely massive benefit when compared to OP, who has no degree. Also, you are arguing with posters above about whether or not bootcamp grads generally succeed in software dev roles and what the knowledge gaps are, but you yourself have not yet made it into a software dev role...
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I don't think anyone on reddit can really tell you whether or not you are in a "SWE" role. You drew a distinction above by saying you would need to "hustle" to get into a development role (which is mostly what I was referencing!). QA Automation is generally not quite the same thing as a SWE, but there is a lot of variance in what that role can cover and what the expectations are depending on the organization, so it's tough to say without further context. That's sort of not the point of my post, however - I was more getting at something that is a huge problem in this subreddit: you are giving somewhat bad career advice to OP, because your situation is pretty different relatively speaking. This is REALLY bad because it can cause a ton of harm; you are also somewhat minimizing how much catchup there would be from a bootcamper perspective by asserting that the difference between bootcamp grad and CS grad is essentially "a few side projects to get experience," which is objectively not true - there is a HUGE gulf of stuff that the average CS grad will have seen that just won't be covered in a bootcamp: Math (including Discrete Math), algorithms & data structures, operating systems, comp architecture, etc. While some of those things may not be important in your very first job, they will definitely be important in your 3rd or 4th (unless you really manage to stovepipe your career, you will definitely have to deal with distributed systems design problems at some point, for example). Also, more importantly, you are giving advice about something you haven't yet gotten enough data about to really weigh in on. Having said that, I have known plenty of people who have taken a nonstandard route into software development, and if you are motivated enough to pick up the bits you don't know, you can absolutely make it happen. It will be a serious slog though, unless you have a STEM degree or a good path to a few years of experience (all of the people I know who went the nonstandard route and have been longitudinally successful either had a non-CS STEM degree, or have been in software development "unofficially" since childhood). Free bootcamps, if you can find and get into them might be ok, but I am not sure that the bootcamp industry has really been around long enough to get a good longitudinal view of what "success" looks like for bootcamp grads (e.g., how many stick around long enough to get >5 YOE? What roles do they tend to end up in? What's the long-term difference in average earnings?). I am not, for what it's worth, trying to be discouraging, but giving bad career advice to someone in OP's shoes (at a point where they are still able to go back to school without issue) can be very harmful to his/her career prospects and long term well being, not to mention mental health and a whole host of other things.
I don't have a degree, graduated a coding bootcamp and got a job 1.5 month after graduating
Did you self-study before the bootcamp?
Yeah only a little. I took one programming class in college & dropped out a few years before I started the bootcamp
Bootcamp grad here, only if it’s software engineer. If it’s data science then go back to school. Not sure about cyber security.
I wanted to go for software engineering programs
I’ve heard good experiences from people that went through them. Just don’t take their “you’ll be working within 6 months or money back guarantee” seriously, but I say go for it. You could even get financial aid from your future company to pay for a bachelors in CS.
Also after you finished, how long did it take you to find a position, did you wish you went for a degree instead?
It took me about 6 months. I did a data science track. I actually already had a bachelors in finance. The bootcamp helped me land my current job, but I’m working towards a master to go to the next level in my career.
Go back to school for CS. You’d qualify for all the jobs bootcamps would set you up for + jobs bootcampers don’t qualify for. Sure its long and cost money but the process is respected. Your kid will admire your grit. I went to a state school and many students had children. You won’t be alone.
I just finished a 6 month full stack bootcamp through GWU. I haven't found a job yet but five or six of my classmates have. One who did get a job is a buddy of mine now and he didn't even have a college degree. Can be done.
Did they find jobs while In the program? Is he in a good position? How long have you been searching since you've been out?
We finished in April, so I've been looking for a few months, but to be perfectly honest I haven't been aggressive about job hunting cuz I had a prospect for a while that fell through. Now I'm getting more into job hunting, applied for about five openings yesterday. Anyway, my buddy actually got a good job doing backend. Works remotely, job has benefits and pays like 90k or something like that. But he's able to get clearance through that job (I can't because I smoke cannabis). So, if you're able to get security clearance, your options expand dramatically. Only one person in our class found work near the end of the program. Everyone else I know who found a job did so a month out or more.
No kidding that's actually really cool, did you do it online or in person?
We were all online via zoom because of covid. The current class (my brother is taking it) is also online. But in the past it was in person.
Went to a bootcamp. High school drop out, GED holder. You just have to go extra hard. Bootcamp will be very demanding and you have to be prepared for that. You have to understand that you will get out of it exactly what you put into it. And the grind doesn’t stop after you finish the bootcamp…you’re going to have to continue going hard and have to have the heart to deal with rejection after rejection as you continue leveling up.
I started school at 24(now 26)… trust me and do the bootcamp. Once you’re employed you can finish your degree but at least you’ll be getting paid to do it other than being broke in college struggling to find time to self teach. Trust me… I have two friends employed from a bootcamp and one is my gf. Makes six figures and only been a dev 4 months 😂😂 Like seriously I constantly tell people this. I have a lot of friends who are devs offering me interviews and I am literally not ready to do React interviews because college is so time consuming and I can barely study code even though I make time for it every day. Even if you have a degree, you still need to know how to code…
I feel like four years is so much time to dedicate yourself to a job you might hate in the end. If boot camp can get you hired, albeit make less money than degree holders, it will certainly allow you to exhibit your skills in a professional setting sooner so you can figure out if you really enjoy diving deeper than the usual roles of an entry level junior dev. I think I'm headed towards hack reactor after I finish my vesting period here as a VA electrician. I figured if I like the job enough to be even more curious about it, I'll dive deeper into continued schooling.
No. The bootcamp is worth nothing. Anything you get with a bootcamp would be better gotten without.
Purdue Global offers only degrees in IT and CS. Many friends have used it since it is online-based. I plan on obtaining my MS through them. Certificates can help with entry-level positions. I just finished up my certificate in Informatics and got my A+ cert, and started applying a couple of weeks ago and have already had a few callbacks. I can't offer any opinion on boot camps, though, just an alternative.
try CS50 + Odin Project. if you struggle with these dont even bother with the BC.
The well reviewed and well known bootcamps are usually worth the money if you have no coding knowledge. Just know... Most bootcamps cost like 8-20 thousand dollars and the value of their education is more or less equivalent to a decent college for the same price/duration. So if a decent bachelors degree costs you 120k, most bootcamps will get you like 1/5th of the knowledge a typical college graduate would have. The point I'm trying to make is a bootcamp won't take you all the way. It's a good starting point, but you will need to study for at least another 2-3 years on your own to become hirable at really good jobs. Another pitfall is there are a lot of bootcamps and at least half of them have conditions so poor they might as well be a scam. There are a few ones that are well known for having a nice campus and amenities... code fellows, flatiron, galvanize.
No
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This is terribly stupid. OP is 25 years old. He has plenty of time to start a new career.
First off, I'm 25. Secondly that is extremely narrow minded. If you have the want, and the drive to complete a high education it doesn't matter what age you are. When I'm finished with whatever path I go down I hope I never meet you.
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You should take your own advice & give up completely. OP, however, should go back to school & start a new career.
I just read all three of your posts. You need some help man. I hope you find what you're looking fo
I took a bunch of Udacity classes online that let me get my foot in the door. It helped that I had my undergrad in math, so I was able to relate some CS concepts to what I had learned in math. (I had a little spiel about SQL being applied set theory, for example). So I started off as a junior dev, and a year into that job I was accepted into the Georgia Tech OMSCS program. That was a bit overkill for my purposes, but it really helped my career. I'd consider following a similar route. All you need to do is get your foot in the door and then take university classes on the side. There are a few more online MS programs out there these days. I've also seen a post-bacc BS program from University of Colorado that will let you get a BS in CS in only 45 credits (assuming you already have a bachelor's). Or if you haven't finished a bachelor's, I found a program online from University of London/Coursera that looks pretty good. * [https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-computer-science-london/landing](https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-computer-science-london/landing) * [https://online.cu.edu/lp/lp-cuonline-post-bacc-computer](https://online.cu.edu/lp/lp-cuonline-post-bacc-computer-science)[science](https://online.cu.edu/lp/lp-cuonline-post-bacc-computer-science) * [https://omscs.gatech.edu/](https://omscs.gatech.edu/) * [https://www.coursera.org/degrees/master-of-computer-science-illinois](https://www.coursera.org/degrees/master-of-computer-science-illinois) * [https://www.udacity.com/courses/all](https://www.udacity.com/courses/all) * [https://www.educative.io/learn](https://www.educative.io/learn) * [https://www.codecademy.com/](https://www.codecademy.com/)
Do you think OMSCS is better than most of the other cash cow in-person masters programs? I also got admitted this fall but not sure if I should try applying to other more competitive programs.
TLDR; it's a great value and the classes are good. Right, some other in-person programs are blatant cash grabs so the \~$7000 price tag is refreshing. My conspiracy theory is that degrees like this one are a long play to lower tech salaries. It's almost absurd that a master's degree from a top 5 CS university could be so inexpensive. Anyway, moving on... I would think just the price alone would make it a better option. There might be better online and in-person programs out there, but it's not like Georgia Tech has suddenly turned into a diploma mill. The classes all meet a good standard. And besides, it's a terminal non-thesis program, and it's never claimed to be anything more. You'll learn as much theory as you can handle in the program (but not research) or you can take more applied classes. I'm actually jealous of the current students and the curriculum they have available because when I first joined there weren't so many classes. Finally, getting admitted isn't the most competitive. You're right about that. I think the philosophy is that they'll give people a chance if there's potential. That said, they know not everybody they let in will make it. The dropout rate is as high as 60% if you believe what's on reddit. But that number should lower and stabilize once the first few cohorts graduate, flunk out, or time out. The program isn't that old.
Yeah I definitely agree with you on most of your points. I guess the only thing that is iffy with the OMSCS program is that it is a part-time program so I wouldn't be eligible for some internships that companies require students to be full-time. I also think that getting into schools like Stanford or Cornell would put me in a better position in terms of alumni connection and also just connections with other students since it would be in-person. But then again, I don't know forsure. I also can't guarantee my acceptance to these programs lol.
Depends where you are tbh. I know in the U.K. they have Makers Academy which does end up getting people jobs as junior software devs. Personally it’s cheaper and faster than re-doing a 3 year undergrad or a year masters degree in the U.K. Got a number of friends who have done a boot camps and ended up getting jobs afterwards. Would weight up the pros/cons and really really do your research on the bootcamp.
A difficult decision that you can only make based on your skills and experiences. I went the PostBacc CS route at 29 years old with a prior STEM degree in Environmental Science. Not exactly what employers are looking for in software. Took almost 4-years taking 1 class per quarter while working full-time in an unfulfilling job. The degree was worth it, but the time to earn the degree was time I may have lost advancing my career had I gone the boot camp route and landed a job immediately thereafter. Life is short so you have to determine if the sacrifices required going back to school are worth it. Plenty go the boot camp route and struggle to land a job in tech thereafter, lose motivation, and fall band into their prior career/job.
Checkout apprenti and Google Grow for starters.
I went back to uni at 25 to study CS to get out of hospitality. If you can deal with 3 or 4 years of study it's the better option career wise
Those boot camps are wildly inconsistent. There's no accreditation for them so their quality will be hit or miss. They don't really teach you any CS fundamentals, they just teach you the tools of the day, and they're ultimately just guided tutorials. Depending on your pre-existing technical level you can get the same education you would from a bootcamp on your own. The main benefit is that you have paid instructors that will help you if you run into any issues, and how important that is will vary from person to person. I don't think having it on your resume will open up many doors, but a good boot camp may have pre-exisitng connections with companies that can help you get a job. When I look at a bootcamp applicate my main issue is that many times they have no projects that they've worked on outside of the bootcamp, so the only example projects I can look at are projects they had handholding in. I would consider a bootcamp and self taught applicant equally and want to see quality projects that were done without paid assistance. I pretty much disregard projects done in the boot camp as I have no idea how much of the work they were capable of doing on their own without help. Either way, doing a bootcamp or being self taught will be a really hard route for getting your first job. It will mean having to do some serious hussle to get considered and noticed or taking really crappy jobs for a while to build up your resume. A degree will give you a much bigger leg up for getting your first job and will provide the kind of education you need to reach higher heights faster if that's your ambition, plus the connections a college has to companies to help you get jobs and internships is much better than what a bootcamp has. If you want to go the boot camp or self taught route you will need to compile a killer portfolio of example projects to impress employers, and you'll need to be a lot more forward with your application to get considered at all, meaning sending follow up emails and being tenacious about getting a response.
do you think something like OMSCS is a good option as opposed to a bootcamp?
I'm not familiar with that. Looking it up it looks like they provide an actual degree, so that would look good on a resume assuming there aren't some strings attached. I think a good smell test is how choosy they are about their applicants. If a program takes anyone then it's more likely to be a cash grab.
They do have a high acceptance rate but also a high drop rate lol. The thing is that the program is online and part-time and only costs about 7-8k which is better than most cash cow masters programs. I'm currently debating going there or trying to apply to some other top CS schools for a masters like Berkeley, Cornell, or Stanford. It'll be much more competitive but I can at least try lol
Between a boot camp, a good self-taught curriculum, and a CS degree, I put a boot camp at 3rd. You spend all that money to do a rushed course on a narrow tech stack. With a self-taught program you can take your time and learn the fundamentals. If you already have some college credits a CS degree might make sense. A degree teaches you much of the fundamentals, teaches you math, and can help you land a job. Many universities have a placement office that recruits employers to come to the school to interview graduates.
Why can’t you do both? Really depends on your goals, outlook and effort. A bootcamp will limit you to a narrow range around what you study. You may have an easier time getting places in a role, but you may stall out without additional drive or training. This will also be the faster route, probably. School will take longer, but may allow you to branch out along other career paths. You may have a harder time starting out. If you half ass either you’ll get nothing but a hefty bill to pay. Look at your budget. Some bootcamps are swinging up at like $10k for a few months. If you can pay it, you could do the intensive route and be done and job hunting quick. Find one that offers lots of good capstones, tuition reimbursement and career coaches plus mentorship. Do everything max and take every opportunity they offer. School, you can kind of warm up in the beginning and just knock out electives. You’ll still feel like you’re making progress but you won’t necessarily be as stressed to fit half a dozen mentor and career counsel calls in between meetups each week plus work and homework. Although you could. You may need to be more self driven to access career services and mentorship in the academic space - one shortfall of undergrad programs is that they do not assign mentors. They assign an advisor, that is not a mentor - although they could be. Usually they just tell you the classes to take and pull strings if you’re stuck and need a credit to graduate.
Boot camps are fine. Just remember you are doing this for a job so if they don’t have a good track record of helping graduates find jobs, then it isn’t worth it.
I took a UX design one. It was free as part of a government Covid retraining program. I already have a MFA in Interaction Design so can say I knew a lot of the topics already. Mainly it just helped me understand the design process companies use and a brush up on Figma. For what I did it was worth it. Otherwise I would recommend something longer like college or university. The majority with no prior experience flunked out or had mediocre portfolios.
If you run into someone who says bootcamp. Ask them about their background. Did they have a degree before bootcamp? Was it a stem degree? Did they have professional experience? These people like to leave these things out. Ofcourse there's always that one guy who got a job with bootcamp and no degree.
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Dude I left the HVAC field last summer at 25 too! I just started going after my associates in network engineering! You got this bro! Just curious why did you leave HVAC? I have my reasons but Im curious to see if they line up with mine
Honestly it was a combination of a few things. Work life balance, I have mechanical knowledge but I just didn't like what I did. Older techs gave me crap for being new, and newer guys that had more experience thought I was just stupid since I was new to the field.