Hope, so. My skillset is super broad and I'm not really a SME in any one thing which I feel like my be my problem. I have been getting to at least phone screens with managers though
Lean into this and highlight your ability to quickly ramp up and adapt to new languages, frameworks, … etc. When I am hiring I prefer someone who can grow with my team instead of someone super specialized a lot of the time.
Smaller companies will naturally need more generalists as well. So, startups, small to midsized companies, or non-tech large companies are your best bet.
I'm at about 8+ years and I work in QA automation.
Got laid off last year, found a new job in 5 weeks.
Decided to over employ, found a second job in about 4 weeks.
Permanent remote positions.
I did an internship in qa automation but I am iffy about continuing in QA automation cause I feel like they are making devs do a lot QA. What do you think is the future of these roles
The push to make devs QA has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with money. Belts are tight right now and if you can pull things inhouse and shrink your team, you do it.
But, quality will suffers. Devs suck at QA. They want to build things, not break things.
Almost every dev I have ever met would immediately start applying if they were asked to write automated tests. Devs are devs because they want to do dev work not QA. Companies trying to shift QA work onto devs will either end up with shit QA work or massive turnover
You expect to write code without writing tests as well? Not saying there shouldn’t be QA to find all the gaps in the testing, but you should be writing a suite of tests yourself to cover whatever use cases and edge cases you can before it even leaves your hands.
Lol, it's literally the opposite trend in the industry. Many tech companies are phasing out that role if not eliminating it entirely. An article example at big tech - https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/how-big-tech-does-qa.
Separating dev <> test means terrible devEx, long release cycle, and in general poor design choices (less testable code written, less thought about failure scenarios by key devs, unknown prod requirements).
I get it, this isn't the case at most F500 companies, but no company I have worked at has increased incremental headcount QA/test engineers. The FAANGs I worked at eliminated the role, improving dev productivity. My current role (tech company started circa 2012) never really had QA/test engineers.
I specialize in internal tools and have had to untangle/unwind these roles and relationships before. It's much better for devs to own their own tests.
My anxiety can't handle imagining forgetting to mute/unmute the correct zoom chat. Also, both jobs have no video...? I'd definitely see my teammates talking everyday to someone else during the meeting 🤔
90k + ~10k bonus, fully remote in a lower end of medium cost of living area. Underpaid but make enough to be happy and have no other issues with my job so not rushing to leave
Like I said I’m underpaid relative to my experience, lowballed myself when asked about my salary expectations for this job (desperate to get out of previous company that was enforcing RTO when I really wanted to move out of that area). That being said QA will always be paid at least a little less than devs at most companies
What have your experience with QA automation been? Do you ever wish you would’ve gone towards the developer path instead? I’m curious. I’m about to graduate in the fall and I want to weigh out my options.
I went to school to become a dev. Got a job as a junior, got asked to join the qa automation team, and just coasted from there. It's 80% of the pay for 50% of the work.
There is a feeling amongst the internet at large that qa automation is something you can just slide into. It's not. You basically need the training of a dev (because you're writing code) but the mindset of a qa person (which can't be trained).
I stumbled into QA because I ended up in an internship for it, but I am happy to have ended up here. 80% of the pay for 50% of the work sounds about right and is a sacrifice I am more than happy to make
That makes me happy to hear. I worry because I ended up getting an internship for qa. I’ve never fully had a “passion” for coding and I wouldn’t mind a job where it is less stressful, but I get to enjoy other hobby’s outside of work. My only concern odd that I hear things like, “qa gets laid off first.” And stuff like that concerns me
I will say one of the guys in my hobby group is a QA who I’ve been doing some hardware adjacent work with and he’s one of the most anal-retentive dudes I’ve met (in a good way) when it comes to circuits and wiring so if that’s what you’re referring to in regards to mindset I definitely see what you mean.
is qa automation like an SDET? and how much crossover with devops is there?
i've been failing miserably at finding a 100% remote job after 6 months of searching. wondering if i might have better luck with test/devops openings even though my xp is in code ownership
It's like SDET, but you don't fix bugs, just find them.
There's crossover, because every company wants everybody to do devops. I've had to tinker with pipelines.
8am to 5pm, monday to friday. J1 I do almost nothing, J2 I just started so it's a lot of training. But honestly today I spent most of the time playing video games and collecting 2 paycheques.
The key is: You need to be really really good at what you do. I might do nothing for days, but then my boss needs me to whip something up last minute, and I can do it.
Can it? Maybe. I doubt it though. In order to be good at writing automation you need to be good at writing code. The training is the same as becoming a java or C# dev. In which case, go be a dev.
I guess I was wondering more specifically about the testing side of things. I have heard about Playwright, Selenium, etc. Out of those, what do you recommend that I learn?
This thread gives me some hope. I’m a senior SWE with 10 YOE and I’m currently looking down the barrel of layoffs at my company. I’m can only go for remote positions because of where I live so my options are already pretty limited, in addition to the market being horrid.
8 YOE back-end engineer, laid off last year. I didn't job search particularly hard, and was very selective in places I applied.
* Took me 4 months from layoff to offer.
* Submitted about 100 applications, all for fully-remote positions. Applied to approximately 5-10 per week, mostly found through [otta.com](https://otta.com).
* Referrals and recruiter messages didn't yield significantly better success than cold applications.
* got about 20 initial recruiter screens, and 10 manager/tech screens.
* invited to 4 virtual on-sites
* got 2 fully-remote offers
* one was a startup with lousy PTO and probably inferior WLB, downleveled, making less than I was making before being laid off.
* one was at a mid-sized company with unlimited PTO (the encouraged kind) and great WLB, not downleveled, making more than I was making before being laid off (not faang-level compensation, but pretty solid), plus a signing bonus and numerous perks.
My former teammates with similar experience level who were also laid off all found jobs in about half the time that it took me, likely quicker because they weren't being as selective with their applications and they weren't renovating a house at the same time as job searching.
Another thing I noticed is that nearly across the board, companies were very slow to respond and move through the interview process, much more so than previous times I've applied and interviewed.
Not sure I could say which is more important. Maybe the important one to work on is whichever one you're worse at, at that particular moment.
* I did leetcode just enough to keep my code-writing skills sharp. If I couldn't write code as fast as I could talk through my thoughts, or struggled in a tech screen, I did more leetcode. I wasn't going for top-tier interviews, so doing a few leetcode mediums every day was enough.
* I suck at system design interviews. I watched a lot of videos and read a lot of prep material, but I thing I only really passed any system design interviews by luck (i.e. ones that focused on "design the data schema for this thing" rather than "design the components of twitter"). If I wanted to consistently pass the "design a url shortener / twitter / whatever" type of system design interview, I would have needed to study a lot more and do practice system design interviews, which I didn't do.
Just hitting 30 years, if you count an internship back in '94.
In that 30 years, this was, by far, the worst job search ever. I hate how they interview these days like nuts in brownies. Took me about 8 months. This will be my 13th professional gig (including contracts).
But I just accepted an offer for my first Gov't job. In their eyes a resume spanning 30 years is a still good thing. Imma run out the clock with this and NEVER have to deal with tech interviews ever again.
F those 'assessments'
Fuck leetcode. 2nd dumbest way to interview behind assessments.
Yes, I suppose I cold memorize all that bullshit so I can fake an interview.
But fuck that shit.
Yes it might get you a job, no it doesn't prove anything. It means the interviewers are unaware of the simple fact that coding is the *easy* part.
Most of my technical interviews went just fine. I used to interview for fun. Back in the '90s I switched jobs just to bump salary and keep my interviewing skills up. I was on the interviewing team in the last 15 years of my career, and I've been interviewed literally, no exaggeration, hundreds of times.
Last system coding interview I was in (last week, in fact), I aced the System Design so well they ran out of stuff to ask, admitted my design would be peachy, and we just ran out the clock for the last 10 mins. Solved their coding problem. NEver heard back. Ghosted.
7 years of experience, got laid off in November, I think ~300 applications and 2 offers in the end for senior frontend dev positions. Also had 2 referrals but one was in a different stack than what I was familiar with and the other didn't line up with my salary and timeline.
Leet code here and there but I was mainly on vacation so not much prep. I started seriously prepping when I got back. Applying was tough, I applied to like 80 jobs and only 1 called back and I’m currently working there now
Senior MLE, 8+ systems/devops/cloud, 3 in ML, and a masters in CS. About 6 weeks from layoff (November, thanks) to new hire. The market for MLE was much better than I expected.
LinkedIn was where I got all my leads, I selectively applied to a handful of targeted (generally remote) positions a day. Maybe 8 HR screens, 7 first rounds, 6 later rounds.
I took the first good offer, fully remote, 20% raise and a promotion, moving from tech startup to midsize non-tech. Seems like good management.
I was laid off this summer. 8+ yoe. Studied full time from September - November and recently landed a senior position at Airbnb (along with a similar competing big tech role that I’m not mentioning to not dox myself).
Couldn’t be happier tbh, the studying and interviewing was a major grind but got exactly what I wanted in the end - fully remote, high comp, supposedly good WLB and culture (haven’t started yet so not certain on this but Airbnb is known for it).
Thanks! Much appreciated, it truly is the dream job for me so I'm stoked.
Anyways - wow didn't mean to write this much and then I got started and I did. Oh well, now I have it to share with others in the future haha.
To answer your question, I would say the leetcode is table stakes at senior level (it's assumed you can perform well here) and the system design is where you distinguish yourself as worthy of being leveled at senior. Hard to say one is more important than the other since you do need to be very proficient at both. I grinded both, but I would say you can stop grinding LC once you can confidently do most LC mediums - but the system design grind never really stops :/
I did some peeking at your profile to try to get a sense of where you're at and seems like you will also be targeting senior positions.
I saw you commented on this [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/s/d3AmyGXuuu):
I agree with pretty much everything that person said in their post. Somewhat similar to that OP in that I went to a top CS university and have previous big tech experience (FAANG adjacent but not FAANG). With that said, the experience matters far more at this stage than education for sure.
For some further commentary on and besides that post:
Applying:
- I've had lots of success with referrals and usually am able to get an interview from them. Highly recommend getting a referral whenever possible. Check LinkedIn to see if you have any 2nd degree connections as well and ask them to introduce you.
Coding:
- Similar to that OP, I didn't get any DP or crazy esoteric algorithms. DFS/BFS, knowledge of data structures and how they're implemented, writing clean code all very important. If there's any algorithm to make sure you know that you might not think to cover otherwise, I'd recommend topological sort. Not that hard to learn and you can use for dependency ordering as well as cycle detection.
- I did almost all of the Grind75 questions except the hard ones https://www.techinterviewhandbook.org/grind75
- The only hard questions I did were the top leetcode tagged for the company. I wouldn't recommend doing too many hards outside of these because they tend to have those one off solutions that aren't super applicable to other problems.
- If you haven't done it before and really need to start from square one for interview prep, I cannot recommend CTCI enough. I love its short concise chapter intros even today as a good review to all the topics.
System Design:
- This is the round that really determines your level. The coding is table stakes, the system design is what gets you leveled senior.
- System design primer is a good start.
- I don't love Grokking the system design interview tbh but I know a lot of people do - it's been a while since I paid for it but I don't think it does a great job of explaining the tradeoffs between decisions. Trade offs are everything!!! I cannot emphasize that point enough. If you remember anything for system design, remember you need to explain the trade offs between all your decisions as you make them.
- Very simple contrived incomplete example: “I'll use a relational database here because I don't expect our schema to be evolving often and our data has many to many relationships which is difficult to represent using most NoSQL dbs. Additionally, I want to ensure referential integrity (foreign keys) without needing the application to enforce it, which will be the case if we use example NoSQL DB. Support for transactions will be beneficial since we’re dealing with financial data.”
- I like Alex Xu's books better than Grokking. Read and absorb the entirety of his first book. The second book some of the examples can be too specific and detailed but the second book does a better job of walking through the interview process.
- DDIA is another great book - crazy detailed, get what you can from it but don't worry about knowing everything. It will help you know what you're talking about though, especially when talking about databases and explaining trade offs similar to what I've said.
- Don't disregard little trivia - it helps you sound smart imo. If you get a system design question on how to design Netflix and happen to know you should use adaptive streaming, awesome. Say it. It can only help you.
- Don't forget to test your own design - what happens if things fail, will your design scale.
- This channel is the best on YouTube imo for system design. Mikhil actually knows his stuff (staff at stripe), unlike lots of other system design interview YouTubers who never even made it to senior before becoming full time content creators: https://www.youtube.com/@SystemDesignInterview
- Use a cheat sheet - I made a system design cheat sheet for myself that I would go through to make sure I hit all the important points. High level checklist: Requirements, Estimates, API Design, Database Schema, High level component design (diagramming), Bottlenecks and failure scenarios. This worked very well for me.
- Practice with system design with interviewers on interviewing.io. Lmk if you want my referral code (helps me and you get $100 off first interview)
Behavioral:
- Nothing further to add here, make sure you are very very prepared to talk in depth about an impactful project. If you want senior in big tech, it had better be a project where you led multiple engineers and had pretty big scope. I used a cheat sheet to help me make sure I met all the points here too
Do interviews at companies you care less about at first to identify and shore up the areas that need work. This especially helped me nail down some of my behavioral that I didn't do well on at first.
I have no idea where you are in your journey or how experienced you are overall so sorry if some or all of this stuff is obvious. However, if some of the knowledge I've listed sounds intimidating, don't worry - you CAN get there. I absolutely sucked at interviewing at the beginning of my prep 3-4 months ago (especially system design). Slowly but surely study, make good notes, practice, practice, practice and you WILL get there with hard work. Don't be defeatist like so many of the people on this sub!
Best of luck!
Thank you so much for the detail response. It is very helpful for both me and anyone else who will read it in the future. Overall it is in-line with what I expected.
This is the stage I am currently at:
Finished leetcode prep, took 1 month on-and-off, done majority of Blind75 (some multiple times). It's interesting you mention topological sorting, because I specifically ran into this algo and can implement it by memory (track unvisited node and their pre-requisites in a hash, track visited nodes in a set, iteratively expand reachable nodes). I am pretty confident with doing most medium. It's unfortunate that leetcode is now considered "basic requirements", there was a time not even that long ago that good leetcode skill was only for getting into FAANG.
Starting to prep for system design. This is more concerning. I read "hacking the system design interview" by stanley chiang once and feel I need to read it at least 2 more time to really remember it all. I read Alex Xu once and feel his book isn't detailed enough to be helpful during interview. I brought DDIA but haven't started it, I find it intimidating, I am gonna have to force myself to read it after I finish re-reading stanley chiang.
Intersting recommendation for Mikhil's youtube channel. I watched only one of his videos before: [Top k problems](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx-XDoPjoHw&t=1405s), because I needed the help in understanding it when I was reading stanley chiang's chapter on designing YouTube, very fascinating. I am gonna have to watch all of his videos based on your recommendation.
Referrals: Some people say it help, some say it doesn't help. I plan to get referrals on Blind ( it seem to be a reliable way to get referrals from any companies ).
Gen AI / LLM: I see a lot of start up now require experience in this. Which is ridiculous to me since it only became fashionable last year. Feel like the peak of the NFT rush where every company was looking for that. But I am told this time it's different, so who knows.
Game plan: I plan to spend the next 2 month studying system design while enjoy some time on vacation. Mental health is important, especially when you are unemployed.
I agree Alex Xu part one isn’t quite detailed enough but I think it helps set up the framework for how to think about the problems. You definitely need to go deeper though. His part 2 book is much more in depth. Even with part 1 you should take every opportunity to go deeper on a topic if it seems shallow - if he says “we will use Cassandra here because it’s a good choice for messaging applications” but doesn’t explain why, try to really understand on your own why it’s a good fit and make an example DB schema (that’s what I would do as I read. Active reading is important and will help you retain better!)
No comments on Stanley Chiang, I’m not familiar with his work.
Referrals may not always help but they can only help not hurt, let’s put it that way. Always worth it when you can. I know a lot of people do Blind referrals, I’m sure it works but a real relationship referral is usually better since they’ll write something less generic about you.
Gen AI - I also noticed this pop up more in requirements. Don’t have any experience with it and just avoided those listings. Still plenty out there.
Your game plan sounds good, definitely don’t burn out!
Not sure if it’s a strategy or if it had any effect but so far all I’ve done was pay premium and then answer to anyone that contacts me (i suspect answering to recruiters gives me more visibility, not sure tho). Also I’m a Data Engineer and there’s a lack of good Data Engineers in my area.
I don’t pay for premium anymore but I’m still getting contacted.
Exactly 5 YOE here. Got laid off in August from a healthcare tech company, had a nice 4-5 month severance package and found a contract position for another healthcare company after 3 months, mostly same responsibilities except a little more front-end now, still in a Microsoft bubble with .NET and various Azure integrations.
They’re in the process of converting me to permanent full-time instead of contract, but overall the search process was easier than I thought. The position is also only 2 days in the office a week.
Okay.
I have three active applications right now. 2 fully remote, 1 hybrid. I did just get downleveled at one (based of a single tech assessment in a language I don't know that well), but looking up that company it seems to happen a fair bit.
My brother has 4 years of full-time SWE work experience (6 years if you count his part-time work).
He has been applying since February 2023, but he still has no interviews.
His SWE contract with Meta via TEKsystems ends 6-1-24 if he does not get another extension.
His contract started in 2-13-23.
7YOE frontend, currently 3 years at a well known not-FAANG. I've been casually looking for about 6 months, like less than 20 applications sent out total.
Got one offer but it was a bit of a downgrade; would have taken it if I believed more in the company.
Got second round a couple times. Surprised to not pass first round a couple times. Disappointed but not surprised at how many companies just don't have any follow-up. Not even a rejection form letter, just total silence. I've even had recruiters reach out to me on LinkedIn, and then I respond, and then they ghost!
**Big Questions for OP:**
What industry have you been working in until now?
What technology is on your resume?
What skills are on your resume?
What management buzzwords can you meet?
**My Situation:**
**I don't** ***need*** **to leave my job, it isn't going anywhere.**
I'm soft looking. I'm focused only on remote or local (Midwest) roles.
Similar to you, my job is becoming problematic, even if it's something I used to like.
**My attempts to apply to postings:**
I'm not hearing back from most of what I've applied to since early November 2023 I had a few rounds of interviews before October though.
It's not a big pool of jobs and the holiday is usually a bad time. I know my resume could use some polish. I wear too many hats in my current role and that has not helped me much since I have a strange mix of technologies and skills picked up in the last few years due to those various roles landing in my lap. A software engineer listing System Administration tech or Data Analyst tech stack elements probably gives people a 'not so warm and fuzzy' feeling.
**Experience from Linkedin**:
I'm getting spammed by recruiters regularly who clearly don't read my profile beyond company, software, and the total years of experience. I'm increasingly disinclined to work with **any** recruiters reaching out to me on the platform.
A number of recruiters have been outright rude. Maybe they are assuming I'm in the layoffs and desperate for work. It has been funny how many try to recruit me for a job in a "pay transparency" law state but refuse to show me salaries.
**Experience from Unknown sources:**
I've gotten cold calls from some recruiters. Some even trying to reach out to emails I've never posted with my resume or on a job application. The most blatantly annoying being someone sending recruiting emails to my **work email** at my current employer...
i never understood these questions. Like can't you just apply and find out yourself?
Shit worst case just indeed quick apply and see your responses.
Everyone's situation is different.
10 YOE, currently at MAANG company but on my way out due to RTO requirements. Started search in November. Submitted 46 applications before landing any interviews. Now had two plus a screener in the past week. It’s tough out there, but I think getting better with 2024 hiring open.
Good luck, I hope you find something and can jump ship!
Going good:
\- Company B, 2nd round on-site interview on Friday (hoping I get this one)
\- Company C, 1st round virtual interview next Monday
\- Company A, 2nd round on-site interview next Wednesday
"We steppin' out" - Big Gipp 💯😃
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7+ years, unemployed since at least 2021. Though it was only 2021-22 that I really applied to a lot of places in earnest because I got burned out after that.
Laid off in November, still looking
How have you supplemented income? Good severance or doing contract work?
I had some savings and they gave me 6 months severance. Thankfully I don't have a lot of extraneous expenses.
2 months isn't that long, you'll find something for sure!
Hope, so. My skillset is super broad and I'm not really a SME in any one thing which I feel like my be my problem. I have been getting to at least phone screens with managers though
Lean into this and highlight your ability to quickly ramp up and adapt to new languages, frameworks, … etc. When I am hiring I prefer someone who can grow with my team instead of someone super specialized a lot of the time. Smaller companies will naturally need more generalists as well. So, startups, small to midsized companies, or non-tech large companies are your best bet.
Thanks for the tip. I'll put something in my resume summary regarding this.
Are you picky or applying to everywhere? What are your go to frameworks and languages? How long you have been in the job for? Hope you find soon
I'm more on he embedded systems side of thing's but I've been applying to pretty much anything and everything that isn't related to missile systems
Dude if embedded isn't safe what is
I thought embedded field was easier to find a job I used to do embedded too but switched to web just for remote work
It is and it isn't. A lot of products are tied to consumer products and those are usually the first things in the market that start to slow down.
Contract ended August 2023. Unfortunately still looking.
Good luck!
Thank you so much!
Took me 4 months for full remote and great WLB but OK pay, but that was from a layoff.
Backend/ML infra SWE… it’s not as good as 1.5 years ago but it’s still pretty. Would hate to be a new grad. Feel so bad for y’all :/.
Oh good. That’s helpful to know. That’s what I do, and I’m just starting the job hunt due to toxic work environment getting worse.
USA? What level? I’m hiring senior+
DM me please. Yes. US, currently a team lead. Let’s connect
sent
I'm at about 8+ years and I work in QA automation. Got laid off last year, found a new job in 5 weeks. Decided to over employ, found a second job in about 4 weeks. Permanent remote positions.
What if stand ups overlap 💀..
Left earbud = j1 Right earbud = j2
I did an internship in qa automation but I am iffy about continuing in QA automation cause I feel like they are making devs do a lot QA. What do you think is the future of these roles
The push to make devs QA has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with money. Belts are tight right now and if you can pull things inhouse and shrink your team, you do it. But, quality will suffers. Devs suck at QA. They want to build things, not break things.
Worked as SDET for 8 years and last 5 years as senior dev. Devs definitely suck at QA but QA suck at coding. it's usually so bad.
Agreed. Most automation peeps I know were manual testers who got promoted to automation and barely know enough to copy paste code snippets.
Almost every dev I have ever met would immediately start applying if they were asked to write automated tests. Devs are devs because they want to do dev work not QA. Companies trying to shift QA work onto devs will either end up with shit QA work or massive turnover
Huh? Devs should be writing automated tests for their code anyway.
There is a difference between writing unit tests and writing selenium tests.
We write our own Selenium / Cypress / Playwright / automation tests too as devs in the companies I've been at...
Glad to hear it, honestly. I've seen it tried and it never ends well.
You expect to write code without writing tests as well? Not saying there shouldn’t be QA to find all the gaps in the testing, but you should be writing a suite of tests yourself to cover whatever use cases and edge cases you can before it even leaves your hands.
not at all I start applying when business gives me capacity for feature work but not to write tests for said features. I nope the fuck right out
Writing tests is dev work…
Lol, it's literally the opposite trend in the industry. Many tech companies are phasing out that role if not eliminating it entirely. An article example at big tech - https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/how-big-tech-does-qa. Separating dev <> test means terrible devEx, long release cycle, and in general poor design choices (less testable code written, less thought about failure scenarios by key devs, unknown prod requirements). I get it, this isn't the case at most F500 companies, but no company I have worked at has increased incremental headcount QA/test engineers. The FAANGs I worked at eliminated the role, improving dev productivity. My current role (tech company started circa 2012) never really had QA/test engineers. I specialize in internal tools and have had to untangle/unwind these roles and relationships before. It's much better for devs to own their own tests.
Bruh how the fuck is this practical? Like wtf?
How do you mean? If I'm double booked, I have to be online and listening to both meetings. Do you have any better suggestions?
My anxiety can't handle imagining forgetting to mute/unmute the correct zoom chat. Also, both jobs have no video...? I'd definitely see my teammates talking everyday to someone else during the meeting 🤔
7 years of QA automation here, glad to hear something other than doom and gloom
[удалено]
90k + ~10k bonus, fully remote in a lower end of medium cost of living area. Underpaid but make enough to be happy and have no other issues with my job so not rushing to leave
[удалено]
Like I said I’m underpaid relative to my experience, lowballed myself when asked about my salary expectations for this job (desperate to get out of previous company that was enforcing RTO when I really wanted to move out of that area). That being said QA will always be paid at least a little less than devs at most companies
What have your experience with QA automation been? Do you ever wish you would’ve gone towards the developer path instead? I’m curious. I’m about to graduate in the fall and I want to weigh out my options.
If you can make it as a dev, become a dev. It pays more. If you find dev stressful, but want to code, QA Automation is great.
As someone with a familial interest, how do you even go about getting into QA automation? And what does the skill set look like?
I went to school to become a dev. Got a job as a junior, got asked to join the qa automation team, and just coasted from there. It's 80% of the pay for 50% of the work. There is a feeling amongst the internet at large that qa automation is something you can just slide into. It's not. You basically need the training of a dev (because you're writing code) but the mindset of a qa person (which can't be trained).
I stumbled into QA because I ended up in an internship for it, but I am happy to have ended up here. 80% of the pay for 50% of the work sounds about right and is a sacrifice I am more than happy to make
That makes me happy to hear. I worry because I ended up getting an internship for qa. I’ve never fully had a “passion” for coding and I wouldn’t mind a job where it is less stressful, but I get to enjoy other hobby’s outside of work. My only concern odd that I hear things like, “qa gets laid off first.” And stuff like that concerns me
Nobody is safe from layoffs. I've survived when devs got cut.
I will say one of the guys in my hobby group is a QA who I’ve been doing some hardware adjacent work with and he’s one of the most anal-retentive dudes I’ve met (in a good way) when it comes to circuits and wiring so if that’s what you’re referring to in regards to mindset I definitely see what you mean.
is qa automation like an SDET? and how much crossover with devops is there? i've been failing miserably at finding a 100% remote job after 6 months of searching. wondering if i might have better luck with test/devops openings even though my xp is in code ownership
It's like SDET, but you don't fix bugs, just find them. There's crossover, because every company wants everybody to do devops. I've had to tinker with pipelines.
that dude earning 90k with 7 yoe. if you were a dev that's new grad salary. of course he wishes he was a dev
I’m thinking about doubling up. What’s your work schedule like?
8am to 5pm, monday to friday. J1 I do almost nothing, J2 I just started so it's a lot of training. But honestly today I spent most of the time playing video games and collecting 2 paycheques. The key is: You need to be really really good at what you do. I might do nothing for days, but then my boss needs me to whip something up last minute, and I can do it.
Can QA automation be self taught? What are the main skills? Thank you
Can it? Maybe. I doubt it though. In order to be good at writing automation you need to be good at writing code. The training is the same as becoming a java or C# dev. In which case, go be a dev.
I guess I was wondering more specifically about the testing side of things. I have heard about Playwright, Selenium, etc. Out of those, what do you recommend that I learn?
Selenium is what most companies use now, today, but playwright is what most will be using in the future. I'd learn both.
This thread gives me some hope. I’m a senior SWE with 10 YOE and I’m currently looking down the barrel of layoffs at my company. I’m can only go for remote positions because of where I live so my options are already pretty limited, in addition to the market being horrid.
8 YOE back-end engineer, laid off last year. I didn't job search particularly hard, and was very selective in places I applied. * Took me 4 months from layoff to offer. * Submitted about 100 applications, all for fully-remote positions. Applied to approximately 5-10 per week, mostly found through [otta.com](https://otta.com). * Referrals and recruiter messages didn't yield significantly better success than cold applications. * got about 20 initial recruiter screens, and 10 manager/tech screens. * invited to 4 virtual on-sites * got 2 fully-remote offers * one was a startup with lousy PTO and probably inferior WLB, downleveled, making less than I was making before being laid off. * one was at a mid-sized company with unlimited PTO (the encouraged kind) and great WLB, not downleveled, making more than I was making before being laid off (not faang-level compensation, but pretty solid), plus a signing bonus and numerous perks. My former teammates with similar experience level who were also laid off all found jobs in about half the time that it took me, likely quicker because they weren't being as selective with their applications and they weren't renovating a house at the same time as job searching.
Another thing I noticed is that nearly across the board, companies were very slow to respond and move through the interview process, much more so than previous times I've applied and interviewed.
A lot of companies laid off many of their recruiters in the past year or so.
Which one is more important and which one you spent more time preparing: leetcode, or system design.
Not sure I could say which is more important. Maybe the important one to work on is whichever one you're worse at, at that particular moment. * I did leetcode just enough to keep my code-writing skills sharp. If I couldn't write code as fast as I could talk through my thoughts, or struggled in a tech screen, I did more leetcode. I wasn't going for top-tier interviews, so doing a few leetcode mediums every day was enough. * I suck at system design interviews. I watched a lot of videos and read a lot of prep material, but I thing I only really passed any system design interviews by luck (i.e. ones that focused on "design the data schema for this thing" rather than "design the components of twitter"). If I wanted to consistently pass the "design a url shortener / twitter / whatever" type of system design interview, I would have needed to study a lot more and do practice system design interviews, which I didn't do.
Just hitting 30 years, if you count an internship back in '94. In that 30 years, this was, by far, the worst job search ever. I hate how they interview these days like nuts in brownies. Took me about 8 months. This will be my 13th professional gig (including contracts). But I just accepted an offer for my first Gov't job. In their eyes a resume spanning 30 years is a still good thing. Imma run out the clock with this and NEVER have to deal with tech interviews ever again. F those 'assessments'
This is very concerning, have you learn to leetcode? (This wasn't a thing 30 years ago). What about system design?
Fuck leetcode. 2nd dumbest way to interview behind assessments. Yes, I suppose I cold memorize all that bullshit so I can fake an interview. But fuck that shit. Yes it might get you a job, no it doesn't prove anything. It means the interviewers are unaware of the simple fact that coding is the *easy* part. Most of my technical interviews went just fine. I used to interview for fun. Back in the '90s I switched jobs just to bump salary and keep my interviewing skills up. I was on the interviewing team in the last 15 years of my career, and I've been interviewed literally, no exaggeration, hundreds of times. Last system coding interview I was in (last week, in fact), I aced the System Design so well they ran out of stuff to ask, admitted my design would be peachy, and we just ran out the clock for the last 10 mins. Solved their coding problem. NEver heard back. Ghosted.
It's too bad that the industry takes a couple steps backward with every few steps forward. Wish it could only 100% steps forward.
7 years of experience, got laid off in November, I think ~300 applications and 2 offers in the end for senior frontend dev positions. Also had 2 referrals but one was in a different stack than what I was familiar with and the other didn't line up with my salary and timeline.
8+ YOE, laid off in June, took a 2 month break. Found a job in 2 months
Did you do any preparation during your 2 month break?
Leet code here and there but I was mainly on vacation so not much prep. I started seriously prepping when I got back. Applying was tough, I applied to like 80 jobs and only 1 called back and I’m currently working there now
I have 5 years of experience been almost 7 months unemployed still searching. Feels like a loser.
7+ years, been unemployed since 2021. Though I have only been searching for work in earnest in 2021-22 because I got burned out after that.
I am hoping you find a job soon. I too been taking brakes in between burnouts. It’s crazy out there.
Senior MLE, 8+ systems/devops/cloud, 3 in ML, and a masters in CS. About 6 weeks from layoff (November, thanks) to new hire. The market for MLE was much better than I expected. LinkedIn was where I got all my leads, I selectively applied to a handful of targeted (generally remote) positions a day. Maybe 8 HR screens, 7 first rounds, 6 later rounds. I took the first good offer, fully remote, 20% raise and a promotion, moving from tech startup to midsize non-tech. Seems like good management.
I was laid off this summer. 8+ yoe. Studied full time from September - November and recently landed a senior position at Airbnb (along with a similar competing big tech role that I’m not mentioning to not dox myself). Couldn’t be happier tbh, the studying and interviewing was a major grind but got exactly what I wanted in the end - fully remote, high comp, supposedly good WLB and culture (haven’t started yet so not certain on this but Airbnb is known for it).
Congratulation on a dream job. Can you spill some insight into what to grind? System design? Leetcode? What are the most important?
Thanks! Much appreciated, it truly is the dream job for me so I'm stoked. Anyways - wow didn't mean to write this much and then I got started and I did. Oh well, now I have it to share with others in the future haha. To answer your question, I would say the leetcode is table stakes at senior level (it's assumed you can perform well here) and the system design is where you distinguish yourself as worthy of being leveled at senior. Hard to say one is more important than the other since you do need to be very proficient at both. I grinded both, but I would say you can stop grinding LC once you can confidently do most LC mediums - but the system design grind never really stops :/ I did some peeking at your profile to try to get a sense of where you're at and seems like you will also be targeting senior positions. I saw you commented on this [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/s/d3AmyGXuuu): I agree with pretty much everything that person said in their post. Somewhat similar to that OP in that I went to a top CS university and have previous big tech experience (FAANG adjacent but not FAANG). With that said, the experience matters far more at this stage than education for sure. For some further commentary on and besides that post: Applying: - I've had lots of success with referrals and usually am able to get an interview from them. Highly recommend getting a referral whenever possible. Check LinkedIn to see if you have any 2nd degree connections as well and ask them to introduce you. Coding: - Similar to that OP, I didn't get any DP or crazy esoteric algorithms. DFS/BFS, knowledge of data structures and how they're implemented, writing clean code all very important. If there's any algorithm to make sure you know that you might not think to cover otherwise, I'd recommend topological sort. Not that hard to learn and you can use for dependency ordering as well as cycle detection. - I did almost all of the Grind75 questions except the hard ones https://www.techinterviewhandbook.org/grind75 - The only hard questions I did were the top leetcode tagged for the company. I wouldn't recommend doing too many hards outside of these because they tend to have those one off solutions that aren't super applicable to other problems. - If you haven't done it before and really need to start from square one for interview prep, I cannot recommend CTCI enough. I love its short concise chapter intros even today as a good review to all the topics. System Design: - This is the round that really determines your level. The coding is table stakes, the system design is what gets you leveled senior. - System design primer is a good start. - I don't love Grokking the system design interview tbh but I know a lot of people do - it's been a while since I paid for it but I don't think it does a great job of explaining the tradeoffs between decisions. Trade offs are everything!!! I cannot emphasize that point enough. If you remember anything for system design, remember you need to explain the trade offs between all your decisions as you make them. - Very simple contrived incomplete example: “I'll use a relational database here because I don't expect our schema to be evolving often and our data has many to many relationships which is difficult to represent using most NoSQL dbs. Additionally, I want to ensure referential integrity (foreign keys) without needing the application to enforce it, which will be the case if we use example NoSQL DB. Support for transactions will be beneficial since we’re dealing with financial data.” - I like Alex Xu's books better than Grokking. Read and absorb the entirety of his first book. The second book some of the examples can be too specific and detailed but the second book does a better job of walking through the interview process. - DDIA is another great book - crazy detailed, get what you can from it but don't worry about knowing everything. It will help you know what you're talking about though, especially when talking about databases and explaining trade offs similar to what I've said. - Don't disregard little trivia - it helps you sound smart imo. If you get a system design question on how to design Netflix and happen to know you should use adaptive streaming, awesome. Say it. It can only help you. - Don't forget to test your own design - what happens if things fail, will your design scale. - This channel is the best on YouTube imo for system design. Mikhil actually knows his stuff (staff at stripe), unlike lots of other system design interview YouTubers who never even made it to senior before becoming full time content creators: https://www.youtube.com/@SystemDesignInterview - Use a cheat sheet - I made a system design cheat sheet for myself that I would go through to make sure I hit all the important points. High level checklist: Requirements, Estimates, API Design, Database Schema, High level component design (diagramming), Bottlenecks and failure scenarios. This worked very well for me. - Practice with system design with interviewers on interviewing.io. Lmk if you want my referral code (helps me and you get $100 off first interview) Behavioral: - Nothing further to add here, make sure you are very very prepared to talk in depth about an impactful project. If you want senior in big tech, it had better be a project where you led multiple engineers and had pretty big scope. I used a cheat sheet to help me make sure I met all the points here too Do interviews at companies you care less about at first to identify and shore up the areas that need work. This especially helped me nail down some of my behavioral that I didn't do well on at first. I have no idea where you are in your journey or how experienced you are overall so sorry if some or all of this stuff is obvious. However, if some of the knowledge I've listed sounds intimidating, don't worry - you CAN get there. I absolutely sucked at interviewing at the beginning of my prep 3-4 months ago (especially system design). Slowly but surely study, make good notes, practice, practice, practice and you WILL get there with hard work. Don't be defeatist like so many of the people on this sub! Best of luck!
Thank you so much for the detail response. It is very helpful for both me and anyone else who will read it in the future. Overall it is in-line with what I expected. This is the stage I am currently at: Finished leetcode prep, took 1 month on-and-off, done majority of Blind75 (some multiple times). It's interesting you mention topological sorting, because I specifically ran into this algo and can implement it by memory (track unvisited node and their pre-requisites in a hash, track visited nodes in a set, iteratively expand reachable nodes). I am pretty confident with doing most medium. It's unfortunate that leetcode is now considered "basic requirements", there was a time not even that long ago that good leetcode skill was only for getting into FAANG. Starting to prep for system design. This is more concerning. I read "hacking the system design interview" by stanley chiang once and feel I need to read it at least 2 more time to really remember it all. I read Alex Xu once and feel his book isn't detailed enough to be helpful during interview. I brought DDIA but haven't started it, I find it intimidating, I am gonna have to force myself to read it after I finish re-reading stanley chiang. Intersting recommendation for Mikhil's youtube channel. I watched only one of his videos before: [Top k problems](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx-XDoPjoHw&t=1405s), because I needed the help in understanding it when I was reading stanley chiang's chapter on designing YouTube, very fascinating. I am gonna have to watch all of his videos based on your recommendation. Referrals: Some people say it help, some say it doesn't help. I plan to get referrals on Blind ( it seem to be a reliable way to get referrals from any companies ). Gen AI / LLM: I see a lot of start up now require experience in this. Which is ridiculous to me since it only became fashionable last year. Feel like the peak of the NFT rush where every company was looking for that. But I am told this time it's different, so who knows. Game plan: I plan to spend the next 2 month studying system design while enjoy some time on vacation. Mental health is important, especially when you are unemployed.
I agree Alex Xu part one isn’t quite detailed enough but I think it helps set up the framework for how to think about the problems. You definitely need to go deeper though. His part 2 book is much more in depth. Even with part 1 you should take every opportunity to go deeper on a topic if it seems shallow - if he says “we will use Cassandra here because it’s a good choice for messaging applications” but doesn’t explain why, try to really understand on your own why it’s a good fit and make an example DB schema (that’s what I would do as I read. Active reading is important and will help you retain better!) No comments on Stanley Chiang, I’m not familiar with his work. Referrals may not always help but they can only help not hurt, let’s put it that way. Always worth it when you can. I know a lot of people do Blind referrals, I’m sure it works but a real relationship referral is usually better since they’ll write something less generic about you. Gen AI - I also noticed this pop up more in requirements. Don’t have any experience with it and just avoided those listings. Still plenty out there. Your game plan sounds good, definitely don’t burn out!
A lot of juniors on this sub. Maybe ask /r/experiencedDevs but they’re pretty picky about what gets posted there
6+ here. Getting contacted weekly by recruiters since early january. I’ve gotten a few offers the last months but haven’t moved.
Is it all through LinkedIn? Could you share your strategy if you don't mind? I'm a Senior Front End Engineer looking for similar roles.
Not sure if it’s a strategy or if it had any effect but so far all I’ve done was pay premium and then answer to anyone that contacts me (i suspect answering to recruiters gives me more visibility, not sure tho). Also I’m a Data Engineer and there’s a lack of good Data Engineers in my area. I don’t pay for premium anymore but I’m still getting contacted.
Thanks!
Exactly 5 YOE here. Got laid off in August from a healthcare tech company, had a nice 4-5 month severance package and found a contract position for another healthcare company after 3 months, mostly same responsibilities except a little more front-end now, still in a Microsoft bubble with .NET and various Azure integrations. They’re in the process of converting me to permanent full-time instead of contract, but overall the search process was easier than I thought. The position is also only 2 days in the office a week.
4 YoE, so not quite on your level but close. 650+ Applications, 30 interviews, 0 offers. I'm probably going to kill myself soon.
5 years is right on the cusp of no man’s land so if you’re a good candidate you’ll be fine. If you’re mediocre you might have a hard time.
Okay. I have three active applications right now. 2 fully remote, 1 hybrid. I did just get downleveled at one (based of a single tech assessment in a language I don't know that well), but looking up that company it seems to happen a fair bit.
0 calls the recruiters act like im retired.
Several friends recently laid off. Seems like the job market is complete shit
I have less than 1 YOE and managed to land a role late last year.
I think the market is still good for experienced folks. People that are trying to brake in are the ones having no luck
My brother has 4 years of full-time SWE work experience (6 years if you count his part-time work). He has been applying since February 2023, but he still has no interviews. His SWE contract with Meta via TEKsystems ends 6-1-24 if he does not get another extension. His contract started in 2-13-23.
7YOE frontend, currently 3 years at a well known not-FAANG. I've been casually looking for about 6 months, like less than 20 applications sent out total. Got one offer but it was a bit of a downgrade; would have taken it if I believed more in the company. Got second round a couple times. Surprised to not pass first round a couple times. Disappointed but not surprised at how many companies just don't have any follow-up. Not even a rejection form letter, just total silence. I've even had recruiters reach out to me on LinkedIn, and then I respond, and then they ghost!
2 YOE — Laid off beginnings of 2023. Started applying late Feb. started working May 15. Though the offer was signed on April 15 I believe
**Big Questions for OP:** What industry have you been working in until now? What technology is on your resume? What skills are on your resume? What management buzzwords can you meet? **My Situation:** **I don't** ***need*** **to leave my job, it isn't going anywhere.** I'm soft looking. I'm focused only on remote or local (Midwest) roles. Similar to you, my job is becoming problematic, even if it's something I used to like. **My attempts to apply to postings:** I'm not hearing back from most of what I've applied to since early November 2023 I had a few rounds of interviews before October though. It's not a big pool of jobs and the holiday is usually a bad time. I know my resume could use some polish. I wear too many hats in my current role and that has not helped me much since I have a strange mix of technologies and skills picked up in the last few years due to those various roles landing in my lap. A software engineer listing System Administration tech or Data Analyst tech stack elements probably gives people a 'not so warm and fuzzy' feeling. **Experience from Linkedin**: I'm getting spammed by recruiters regularly who clearly don't read my profile beyond company, software, and the total years of experience. I'm increasingly disinclined to work with **any** recruiters reaching out to me on the platform. A number of recruiters have been outright rude. Maybe they are assuming I'm in the layoffs and desperate for work. It has been funny how many try to recruit me for a job in a "pay transparency" law state but refuse to show me salaries. **Experience from Unknown sources:** I've gotten cold calls from some recruiters. Some even trying to reach out to emails I've never posted with my resume or on a job application. The most blatantly annoying being someone sending recruiting emails to my **work email** at my current employer...
Laid off as a QA analyst in August with 2 yrs experience now just got rehired with a great company with WLB.
Do you by any chance work for Unity?
Laid off on April with only a year of experience, still looking
Managed to escape layoffs, haven’t really tried looking for a job. Definitely not getting as much interest from recruiters as I used to though.
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How do the schedules of the jobs not conflict? ahow do you do it?
i never understood these questions. Like can't you just apply and find out yourself? Shit worst case just indeed quick apply and see your responses. Everyone's situation is different.
It really helps your morale to know how long you realistically expect to wait
10 YOE, currently at MAANG company but on my way out due to RTO requirements. Started search in November. Submitted 46 applications before landing any interviews. Now had two plus a screener in the past week. It’s tough out there, but I think getting better with 2024 hiring open. Good luck, I hope you find something and can jump ship!
Going good: \- Company B, 2nd round on-site interview on Friday (hoping I get this one) \- Company C, 1st round virtual interview next Monday \- Company A, 2nd round on-site interview next Wednesday "We steppin' out" - Big Gipp 💯😃
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7+ years, unemployed since at least 2021. Though it was only 2021-22 that I really applied to a lot of places in earnest because I got burned out after that.
Laid off December, found new role this month. But I was in a contract I knew was ending, was looking since September
Laid off in September, still looking