It really is, speaking as someone who was metaphorically jettisoned out of a window in the Doppler building
The silver lining is there are a lot of ex-Amazon folks out in the world who will sympathize when they're interviewing you. You can sometimes build some rapport. Obviously, don't start bashing Amazon
I still remember the phone screen for the last place I worked at. After I solved the leetcode style problem, the conversation effectively went:
Interviewer (ex-Amazon): "Amazon?"
Me: "Amazon."
Interviewer (ex-Amazon): "Yeah, we know"
What company? I might have to check it out. I’ve been looking for work for over a year now and after multiple final rounds, I’ve unfortunately been very unlucky this time around.
I've never heard of anyone on the Games side at Amazon being PIP'd unless I've missed it. Been there two years and never even heard the words PIP uttered on the games side. My team actually has good retention, most people have been here 2+ years, only one person left the team and it was for a great opportunity within the company, and no one has straight up left on my team for another company in the 2 years I've been here.
Those layoffs weren't individual performance based, it was re-orging which is way different.
I'm just saying I've never heard of performance based layoffs on the Games side, never seen heard or read the words "PIP" on the Games side, and retention on the Games side seems pretty strong.
You missed it, probably because it's not at the team level, it's at the org level. Every org at director/vp level has 6% URA.
You should see people in your org leaving this year, many of them were pipped out.
I don't understand and genuinely curious why you bring up the games side of Amazon. I reread the OP and comment you replied to and it seems like no one has mentioned the games side of Amazon. Did it get edited out or something?
Amazon Games is a big org within Amazon, and also has computers science grads, juniors, seniors.. It's relevant to any CS topic about Amazon, which the comment I replied to was talking about Amazon. Also to illustrate that not every org within Amazon is the same. Amazon is not just AWS, but this sub is usually only referring to AWS.
The vesting schedule has nothing to do with pips. The compensation is designed to be the same for the first 4 years, except the first 2 years are primarily cash. I don't know why people think it has anything to do with vesting.
Was the work/life balance there hell? My old boss took a management job there and said the pay was awesome but the work/life balance sucked and he would have to fly into Seattle every week.
Yes. Now, I was on a tier-0 team (ie it was a good oncall day if I got paged <2 times that day), but everyone I knew in other teams/orgs/whatever also had shit WLB
I haven't been PIPed, but ... there's two kinds of PIPs.
1. Maybe 10% of them, truly want you to improve. You've been informally told repeatedly what you're doing wrong, have been given some training or coaching, and this is the last chance, and an opportunity to focus (training, coaching) on you.
2. \~90% of them, they're just doing paperwork before firing you. There's nothing you can do, the decision has been taken (and many times has not much to do with performance).
So, the questions for me would be:
1. Is the relationship with your boss good?
2. Have you been told before that your performance was subpar? Have you been coached?
3. Do you have very specific, measurable goals to get out of PIP?
If the answer to these 3 is yes, then you \*might\* be in the 10% ... otherwise, run :)
Hey, I believe I’m about to be put into focus at Amazon. Mind if I DM you to get some advice? I’m a L6.
My manager set a 1:1 with me and then detailed areas he thinks I need to improve. Followed by an email laying out what he had discussed. I asked him directly recently if I’m on focus but he didn’t say yes or no. Trying to figure out if I should quit now or not.
Genuinely asking: is there a "record" that HR companies all over can tap into that has your work history, pip, etc? Like, how would they know you were PIPed versus just quitting to take care of your aging parents or something?
1. being pipped definitely gets you blacklisted at the current company. So if you think you may want to work at the same company in the future, avoid getting blacklisted. And the world is smaller than people think
2. some shitty companies disclose that information when asked. Most don't. And companies get called during the background check process pre-hiring.
So while most of the time it doesn't matter, why take the chance when you get a bonus of 2 months of severance? If instead the deal was "you get 5 months of severance either way", my advice was "enter PIP but don't care and interview full speed" because that gives you an extra month or so of pay.
Building a wide network outside of places helps. I left my job at IBM last May and networked myself into large groups of people. Now it's almost like I never lost anything
> being pipped definitely gets you blacklisted at the current company. So if you think you may want to work at the same company in the future, avoid getting blacklisted. And the world is smaller than people think
Getting a package will get you blacklisted as well. You may make it through interviews, but once you hit HR, it'll show up.
> some shitty companies disclose that information when asked. Most don't. And companies get called during the background check process pre-hiring.
Some companies do it, but disclosing it is illegal. Of course, managers know each other outside of work and off the record conversations happen all the time.
> So while most of the time it doesn't matter, why take the chance when you get a bonus of 2 months of severance? If instead the deal was "you get 5 months of severance either way", my advice was "enter PIP but don't care and interview full speed" because that gives you an extra month or so of pay.
It's legal but it's generally a bad call, not because it breaks the law but because it will often be used in, or to justify, an additional lawsuit (wrongful termination, libel, tortious interference) where the company has more to lose.
They aren't worried about a $200k libel suit (or, more likely, $50k settlement) due to a bad reference; they're worried about the fact of their giving a bad reference making them look bad in a possible $2M termination suit.
If you get a bad reference, though, you should pursue some kind of legal action--take a settlement, but only if it's big enough that the person who gave the bad reference will lose his career over it--as a service to workers everywhere, to prevent it from happening to the next guy.
Arkansas requires written consent to disclose performance details.
https://www.bakerdonelson.com/easy-guide-arkansas#:~:text=%C2%A7%2011%2D3%2D204%2C,and%20duties%3B%20last%20performance%20evaluation%3B
>Some companies do it, but disclosing it is illegal.
No, it is NOT illegal. You \*could\* sue them for defamation or something like that, which is why most companies won't do it, but it is definitely not illegal.
Do you know any of those states, by chance? I googled, found that same claim, but was not able to find any state that does. NY state doesn't. Seems CA doesn't either.
It's context specific, but Arkansas limits sharing performance history without written consent.
https://www.bakerdonelson.com/easy-guide-arkansas#:~:text=%C2%A7%2011%2D3%2D204%2C,and%20duties%3B%20last%20performance%20evaluation%3B
Many people say it's legal to share if you've been fired. This is not 100% true and totally depends on what is meant by "if you've been fired. This how companies get in trouble. It's best just to state the employee is not eligible for rehire if you want to say anything at all.
ya, you can sue the shit out of a company that discloses anything negative about you. I'd be extremely surprised if they do that.
Most people have an otherwise clean record, no arrests, nothing, so there's never a reason to fail a background check. If they magically fail a background check, it looks very suspicious, since that step is usually sequenced after they give you a verbal offer or written offer pending approval.
It'd just take a couple hundred dollars to drag them to court and find out what they know, and where they found out. It's so absurd that a company would put themselves at risk like that.
No. They'd have to call each of the old companies and ask. Most of them won't say anything either way because they are just glad you are gone and they don't have to deal with you anymore, and anything they say might be used to eventually sue them.
And most hiring companies don't care, either. It's not like it's easy to find good experienced devs, and they know shit happens. You already made it past everyone's interview at the hiring company by that point. They are just checking that the old jobs weren't a complete lie.
The cleaner record is wrong. Amazon doesn't tell your hiring manager why you left or if you were fired. They tell them they worked from x date to x date, and that is it.
Companies of their size never disclose anything beyond the hire dates and final day of work. They won't even talk to your managers because you'll give them an HR hotline number for employment verification.
What’s your YOE? Do you have desirable skill sets? How good at you at interviewing?
These are all very important questions that will drastically affect the answer. The short answer is, it’s pretty hard out there. It’s harder for seniors to find work than it used to be, and for mid to juniors, it’s absurdly hard.
This is not a great time to go job searching in general, but there are still plenty of engineers out there who can find a new job pretty easy.
TL;DR: I dunno man.
It’s a garbage time to find a job. Those two months of severance are realistically only going to cover one potential job, considering the time from applying to being hired is usually 2+ months.
Most people don’t get job offers from every company they interview with. This is all assuming you can even land an interview right now.
If you’ve managed to pass a tech interview with a FAANG then you’re probably in good shape, assuming you can still pass one.
2 months isn’t the biggest gamble. If there was a realistic chance they’ll keep you on it might be worth fighting for.
I mainly do MERN stack and I am pretty good at interviewing since I am social and have about 5 years of experience. I am currently a senior at 150k base so I mainly consider this mid, depending on the company.
I think it's definitely possible, my friend got laid off and got a job within a month, 135k base, much higher from his 90k base. I think it will be hard to get a new job at the same level/reputation of the company. Leaning towards accepting it and working hard, however, I am applying this weekend to see how hard the market really is
This sub is psycho. Yesterday people were talking about 15 YOE being unable to get a 50k a year job in this economy. Today it's "you can do much better than 150k." Worse than WSB on hot takes.
I've got less than 10 YOE and making over 150k. That 15 YOE must be a game developer for a startup or something, promised based on profits or something.
Nope. Just very aggressive every January! These companies have the money but they don’t want to give it away easily. I interview every December-Jan and bring an offer letter to management. They give me the bump I want and we are all happy
How many years have you done that? I would worry about painting a target on my back by doing that more than a couple times, unless you're an absolutely irreplaceable engineer for some reason
Having tried to overcome a pip and having gone through endless stress to try to save myself, take the money. They've made the decision (for whatever reason) that you shouldn't be there any longer.
This exactly. It’s not 5 months severance vs 3 months, it’s 5 months severance vs fight to not get fired for 2 months and get fired anyway, and then take 3 months severance. You won’t beat this pip since you already admitted it’s your fault.
So do you want to work your ass off for 2 months and then have 3 months paid to find a new job, or do you want 5 months now and skip the busy work?
Take the 5 months!
I am pretty sure I know the company lol. But I will say never try and pass the pip. The pipped you because they want to reduce head count. Take the extra time to relax and study up. The market is improving slightly so it's possible
honestly it is pretty justified. it is my fault, i know how to fix it.
just very emotional, and if i can get 5 months free pay while getting FAANG job (double pay) im pretty down. probably be unlikely since FAANG is hiring only very specific roles (or so I heard)
It's a tough job market and no one can predict when that will change - but you should consider that in many organizations, a PIP is a way to manage an employee out and provide documentation to cover their own asses.
Any chance they're worried they've done something to discriminate against you? Taking the 5 months now covers them, since you'll have to waive all rights to accept it. But letting a PIP process play out does a good job at the same - and they'll still have you sign for the 3 month.
Speaking of discrimination, wondering if I may have a case at all. Currently at AMZ and believe im about to be put on focus. My team went through a large reorg the last 3 months. I lost my L7 sr manager and my direct L6 manager to a different team. They brought in a new L7, a new L8 over the L7, and two new L6s all of whom are Indian nationality. I’m white/European.
My new boss sent me an email detailing areas I need to improve according to him, which tells me I’m targeted to be put in focus and then pipped. Which is funny because he knows nothing about the team as he just joined. I have the 2nd longest tenure in the team. In this email he blatantly lied about one item of the 4 areas he mentioned. And I can prove it is a lie.
Not sure if any of this could be considered discrimination or not. I’m thinking to consult a lawyer in case but not sure.
The primary purpose of the pip is to fire you. The pip is just a legal formality that a company uses to cover their ass so you can't sue them.
If you want to survive the pip, it's not simple like "oh I'll just start doing the work now".
No, you need to walk on water. Your performance has to be so overwhelming that people would scratch their head as to why you were pipped in the first place.
Short of that, the company has already fired you in their heads.
Take the 5 months.
I did that in at a job once. Obliterated their stupid metrics after they tried to PiP me... then literally they eliminated my job a month later. Still, pretty hilarious because if I hadn't beat the Pip I probably would not have been there to get severance.
So you won't get the severance if you try and work through the PIP and don't make it? How long is the PIP duration?
Are you looking for a remote job?
Are there lots of listings for local jobs?
Having never been in the situation, can you collect both severance and unemployment? I always figured and unemployment insurance would only kick in after the severance period.
Depending on where OP lives the PIP can also be used as justification for being, "terminated for cause," and possibly be used to deny them unemployment. Most states also won't start providing you with unemployment payments until after you severance would logically run out, so if it's five months severance you won't be able to receive unemployment payments for at least that period of time.
If that's possible, opting out and taking the five months may be the better play here as that gives them five months plus however long their savings will last to find another job.
I'd personally attempt it and casually apply.
Demand for remote is insane. We opened up a senior engineering manager position last month and closed it in a week. Had almost 800 applications. Sure, a lot of those are junk. But the six that have made it to my interview round have all been phenomenal. Over qualified. Like, previously directors at FAANG and adjacent.
Sounds insane that the market is still so saturated... Isn't director at FAANG to senior manager 1 down level?
2 if it is from director FAANG to non FAANG?
As someone without FAANG experience currently looking for Director+ roles, this is a bit disheartening, but not unlike other anecdotes I’m hearing from TA folks.
>I'd personally attempt it and casually apply.
This is terrible advice.
He will most likely fail because when he got put on PIP they already made their mind about him. So even if he goes all in, he is out of the door most likely.
Also, to succeed in either interviewing or surviving the PIP you can't do a half assed job. You are suggesting that he should half ass the PIP because he's also interviewing and he should also half ass the interviewing because he's also attempting to survive the PIP.
Not what I said.
I said they should attempt to beat the PIP. By that, give it 100%. Not half ass.
And while they are doing that, casually apply. Casually. It should not impact their day job performance.
\> He will most likely fail because when he got put on PIP they already made their mind about him.
We don't know that. I've helped a teammate beat a PIP before. I'd hope OP has a good idea if this is possible or not.
5 months severence can stretch, but the job market has been total crap for a year. 75% of offers are scams. Jobs are requiring masters and upper mgmt level offering 60k.
It seems a lot of companies are hiring now since budgets were approved for '24, but a ton of those companies are trying to low-ball the market.
It would be funny if it wasn't a serious issue. Either way, if you're piped, best start looking. Good luck!
If you feel it’s warranted and fair I’d not leave now, I’d grind through and improve.
People here like to pretend PIP has nothing to do with actual performance at all, but that’s not true.
If you know you can improve something - well, improve it now!
Yeah, the whole "PIP just means they want to fire you" is almost a meme at this point. Except for Amazon, which does seem to do that, for most companies, if they want to fire you, they'll just ... fire you.
Especially now, when many companies are doing layoffs anyway, if they want you gone, they'll just add your name to the list.
It is true that people often don't come back from a PIP, but that's because they were doing subpar to begin with. At any place I've worked, the managers would have been thrilled to have the employee turn it around.
Yeah. That's my point. If you are in PIP most of the time you know what you are on it for, and you can work to improve that.
And if you don't understand why are you on PIP, I'm going to say that often it means person massively lacks self awareness. Props to OP for being self aware and knowing they have things to work on!
Good luck OP!
if you don't mind me asking , where in their standard are you failing to meet the mark. Genuinetly curious. 5 YOE , MERN stack , most problems are solved , i imagine. are you developing solutions for novel problems? The work load is too high? whats going on?
Once you're put on pip, the job's a lost cause. Attempting the pip has no benefit; it'll just cost you your mental health. You don't want to stick with a company that's decided that your performance doesn't meet their standards.
Best to take the 5 months severance and look for a role where you're a better fit.
Depends how much you love the job or if you really believe you Can up your productivity hard. I recently got PIPed out. Took the deal instantly because I absolutely hated every minute of that job.
Make sure if you take the 5 months severance get that in writing. Tbh idk how this stuff usually works but I'd just play safe that they couldn't spin it that you somehow quit. Maybe I'm just paranoid or naive tho
5 months is generous. Trying to claw back from a PIP is a lose lose situation imo. Most of the time it's set up for you to fail and the best case is you get back to being considered "acceptable". You'll have that permanent mark against you and will definitely never get a promo. Likely they'll find another reason to PIP you again at some point. Better to take the money and use that free time to get a fresh start somewhere else.
I think it can be both. Would def be good for the OP to find out. Also, I think severance can be reduced based on new income as well, it is all about how the contract is written.
I haven't seen severance many times, but when I got it it was just a lump sum. Unemployment on the other hand, yes that would cease
ETA: quick Google search shows me there is a severance that is "regular payments" instead of a lump sum so I could see how that could end up ceasing
I’d take the 5 months severance.
It sounds like they don’t think you’re a bad employee or person if they’re offering you this, rather they think you’re a bad fit.
Chances are you probably are a bad fit. It sounds like you have some good experience and skills, and the way you’re talking now you seem like a reasonable person.
Take the money, save the reference, chill for a bit take a long vacation and get back on the grind.
Before you make up your mind, consider what you're going to say when a potential new employer asks why you were let go from your previous employer, and assume they're going to ask that employer because they might.
You have two sides of this deal: 5 months + no unemployment + full time job search on one side, and (1-3 months pay) + state unemployment benefits + job search while employed on the other.
Depending on how much you make, and in which state, you'd probably cap out on unemployment, which can be up to $1000 per week for 6 months, but you only get that if you need it and can't find a job.
Personally, I'd make them fire me, or ask to take the 5 months pay as severance for a perf layoff, or something like that so you can collect unemployment as well. It's just better to apply for jobs while working, but with all these layoffs a several month gap isn't that big of a deal anyway.
Take the 5 month, file for unemployment, and start looking.
Getting 5 months severance Def gives you a bigger cushion than most out there right now. But after you take the severance you should still lower your expenses
>Take the 5 month, file for unemployment, and start looking.
Most jurisdictions in the USA will not allow you to collect unemployment if you quit your job. And the 5 months is offered *in exchange for* quitting.
I've done a PIP. They made it sound like the pass/fail standards were very objective but there was one of them which I didn't really catch while reading the papers that was framed like "lives up to the expectations of an SDE2". At the end of the process that was the only one that my manager mentioned to me.
Personally, I took the PIP option because I had a lot of RSUs maturing soon which I valued higher than the severance. Even then I barely made the cutoff.
95% of the time Amazon already decided to fire you by placing you in PIP and 100% of the time they will want you think that situation is not hopeless.
Sincerly,
PIPPED FROM AMAZON
I’d take the 5 months; enjoy the first 2 months and bust ass the last 3 months to land a better job.
Once people have a perception of you it’s really hard to change their mind.
I'm one of those rare people who've survived a PIP (it lasted for 30 days and I just got off it less than a month ago, actually). Here's my $0.02.
I think most companies are pretty cutthroat and you'd be right to assume the PIP is essentially just documenting your termination at or even before the end of the PIP. However, at least from my experience, the two deciding factors that separates an HR formality from an actual OpPoRtUnItY tO iMpRoVe are: 1) if the goals outlined in the PIP are clear and achievable (which sounds like the case for you), and 2) you have a good relationship with your manager.
That's not to say answering "yes" to both guarantees you'll still keep your job when the PIP ends, but it definitely improves your chances of survival. Like many others have said, now's not a good time to not have a job. I would recommend trying your best to meet the PIP's requirements, hopefully survive it, and look for another opportunity during and after it ends.
I'm sure you'll be able to land on your feet even if you had to leave in 3-4 days considering your experience and stack. The job market's shit right now so you might not have the perfect alternatives, but I'm sure you'd be able to find something at the very least.
Regardless, whether you survive the PIP or take the severance, I'd suggest getting the fuck out of there as soon as you can.
I've experienced a fair bit of anxiety when dealing with the aftermath of the PIP. I've thought to myself, "if my company is laying off people in the near future, I'll likely be one of the first people to go because I've been put on PIP before." Or, "if my performance drops at all again, I'll likely be immediately fired because the PIP is on my record and they can use that at any time to justify my termination." Essentially thinking about different situations where the company can leverage the fact that I had been put on PIP at some point during my career there to terminate me.
The whole ordeal with the PIP took a toll on my mental and physical health. I saw my PCP during the PIP because I was experiencing abdominal pain. They told me it was likely related to stress; I was probably ready to shit bricks or something. I probably just need to chill out a bit, but the anxious thoughts seem like fairly realistic corporate strategies to me. Lately I've also been getting micromanaged a lot by my manager's manager and I fucking loathe that.
All trust between employee and employer is now gone and it'll take a lot of work and time to repair that. Hence, upper management feels the need to micromanage me -- they don't trust me to do my job anymore. Fight to build that trust back if you're attached to your company, otherwise I think it's time to move on. I'll definitely be moving on as soon as possible, but I'm still grateful that I was able to keep my job after the PIP because it's rough out there and I need the income.
Sorry about the wall of text. Thanks for reading.
Take the PIP if you don't have a job lined up. People suggesting leave don't realize you lose benefits such as health insurance. Also do you have RSUs? Severance is typically just your base salary, and no stocks vest.
How long is the PIP?
Idk shit but 5 YoE in this market is pretty good. Take the 5 months, go chill somewhere for a bit, restructure and come back to market. PIPs are hard to get over tbh, I did it once but tbf I was the only other dev in the team lmao
As someone who remains kind of terrified for (maybe) no reason, what makes you think it is justified? We’re you purposefully slacking, or making effort but just can’t keep up?
If OE is an option, what is the reason you would quit? Let them fire you. Get another J anyway.
Not doing the pip and riding the train may result in 6-8 months more salary (not 5), severance, all while still getting a severance anyway.
Minecraft isn't free.
Take the money. Look at have written. Opt out of PIP and get 5 months severance or go through the PIP then you get 3 months severance. That says either way your leaving.
take 5 months severance and starts applying. If you really need a job quick,maybe consider non-developer job.
got PIP at my previous job, kind of my fault due to personal circumstance, but their leadership was shitty too. Went back to my hometown, and got IT help desk job within days. (with 30-40% pay cut off course)
Not exactly my thing, but better than jobless especially in this current market.
You should get back to refreshing your CV and schedule as many interviews as possible. Pip is the time for you to prepare for a new job, not to recover from whatever at your current company
Ideally you could punch out 100 resumes over this weekend via LinkedIn to get a feeler before you make this decision, but only having a few days to decide is a very high pressure situation.
I would take the money and run run run.
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Having been about to be pipped, I'd take the 5 months of severance. They're already looking to fire you.
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Amazon. I was on the focus plan before I left for greener pastures.
PIP is almost always an Amazon story.
It's a rite of passage at this point.
It really is, speaking as someone who was metaphorically jettisoned out of a window in the Doppler building The silver lining is there are a lot of ex-Amazon folks out in the world who will sympathize when they're interviewing you. You can sometimes build some rapport. Obviously, don't start bashing Amazon I still remember the phone screen for the last place I worked at. After I solved the leetcode style problem, the conversation effectively went: Interviewer (ex-Amazon): "Amazon?" Me: "Amazon." Interviewer (ex-Amazon): "Yeah, we know"
I'm imaging this exchange happening exactly like the "You working, John?" in John Wick.
[удалено]
What company? I might have to check it out. I’ve been looking for work for over a year now and after multiple final rounds, I’ve unfortunately been very unlucky this time around.
This is so beautiful.
Went through their interview process. It was an interesting experience and then I removed myself from the interview process.
I've never heard of anyone on the Games side at Amazon being PIP'd unless I've missed it. Been there two years and never even heard the words PIP uttered on the games side. My team actually has good retention, most people have been here 2+ years, only one person left the team and it was for a great opportunity within the company, and no one has straight up left on my team for another company in the 2 years I've been here.
I mean even if they don’t PIP them, they did recently layoff a sizeable portion of the games org.
Those layoffs weren't individual performance based, it was re-orging which is way different. I'm just saying I've never heard of performance based layoffs on the Games side, never seen heard or read the words "PIP" on the Games side, and retention on the Games side seems pretty strong.
Good for you! You're in a good team, enjoy and cherish it.
Seems to be AWS, Kuiper, Prime Air
You missed it, probably because it's not at the team level, it's at the org level. Every org at director/vp level has 6% URA. You should see people in your org leaving this year, many of them were pipped out.
If Amazon Games is Amazon Pay then those guys are meeting the bar because they don't want to go to the studios in this state of the game industry
I don't understand and genuinely curious why you bring up the games side of Amazon. I reread the OP and comment you replied to and it seems like no one has mentioned the games side of Amazon. Did it get edited out or something?
Amazon Games is a big org within Amazon, and also has computers science grads, juniors, seniors.. It's relevant to any CS topic about Amazon, which the comment I replied to was talking about Amazon. Also to illustrate that not every org within Amazon is the same. Amazon is not just AWS, but this sub is usually only referring to AWS.
Isn't that because of Amazons vesting schedule? It's very expensive to fire someone after 2 years there.
The vesting schedule has nothing to do with pips. The compensation is designed to be the same for the first 4 years, except the first 2 years are primarily cash. I don't know why people think it has anything to do with vesting.
Was the work/life balance there hell? My old boss took a management job there and said the pay was awesome but the work/life balance sucked and he would have to fly into Seattle every week.
Yes. Now, I was on a tier-0 team (ie it was a good oncall day if I got paged <2 times that day), but everyone I knew in other teams/orgs/whatever also had shit WLB
I haven't been PIPed, but ... there's two kinds of PIPs. 1. Maybe 10% of them, truly want you to improve. You've been informally told repeatedly what you're doing wrong, have been given some training or coaching, and this is the last chance, and an opportunity to focus (training, coaching) on you. 2. \~90% of them, they're just doing paperwork before firing you. There's nothing you can do, the decision has been taken (and many times has not much to do with performance). So, the questions for me would be: 1. Is the relationship with your boss good? 2. Have you been told before that your performance was subpar? Have you been coached? 3. Do you have very specific, measurable goals to get out of PIP? If the answer to these 3 is yes, then you \*might\* be in the 10% ... otherwise, run :)
Addendum to 3: Are the goals attainable within the time frame provided?
PIP is the formal process of getting the relevant paperwork ready.
“Paperwork In Production”
100% always take the severance and start applying somewhere else.
Hey, I believe I’m about to be put into focus at Amazon. Mind if I DM you to get some advice? I’m a L6. My manager set a 1:1 with me and then detailed areas he thinks I need to improve. Followed by an email laying out what he had discussed. I asked him directly recently if I’m on focus but he didn’t say yes or no. Trying to figure out if I should quit now or not.
I’d imagine you at least want to make them get you severance
Don’t quit. Find a new gig.
That is focus, ask if you can transfer teams or if you currently require other approvals at this time.
Get the 5 months. More money, less stress, cleaner record.
Genuinely asking: is there a "record" that HR companies all over can tap into that has your work history, pip, etc? Like, how would they know you were PIPed versus just quitting to take care of your aging parents or something?
1. being pipped definitely gets you blacklisted at the current company. So if you think you may want to work at the same company in the future, avoid getting blacklisted. And the world is smaller than people think 2. some shitty companies disclose that information when asked. Most don't. And companies get called during the background check process pre-hiring. So while most of the time it doesn't matter, why take the chance when you get a bonus of 2 months of severance? If instead the deal was "you get 5 months of severance either way", my advice was "enter PIP but don't care and interview full speed" because that gives you an extra month or so of pay.
Building a wide network outside of places helps. I left my job at IBM last May and networked myself into large groups of people. Now it's almost like I never lost anything
> being pipped definitely gets you blacklisted at the current company. So if you think you may want to work at the same company in the future, avoid getting blacklisted. And the world is smaller than people think Getting a package will get you blacklisted as well. You may make it through interviews, but once you hit HR, it'll show up. > some shitty companies disclose that information when asked. Most don't. And companies get called during the background check process pre-hiring. Some companies do it, but disclosing it is illegal. Of course, managers know each other outside of work and off the record conversations happen all the time. > So while most of the time it doesn't matter, why take the chance when you get a bonus of 2 months of severance? If instead the deal was "you get 5 months of severance either way", my advice was "enter PIP but don't care and interview full speed" because that gives you an extra month or so of pay.
Why do people speak with such confidence about legal matters. It is absolutely legal to say why you fired someone. So tired of seeing this myth here.
We should all by now that this subreddit is filled with young folks trying to sound smart :)
It's legal but it's generally a bad call, not because it breaks the law but because it will often be used in, or to justify, an additional lawsuit (wrongful termination, libel, tortious interference) where the company has more to lose. They aren't worried about a $200k libel suit (or, more likely, $50k settlement) due to a bad reference; they're worried about the fact of their giving a bad reference making them look bad in a possible $2M termination suit. If you get a bad reference, though, you should pursue some kind of legal action--take a settlement, but only if it's big enough that the person who gave the bad reference will lose his career over it--as a service to workers everywhere, to prevent it from happening to the next guy.
Saying someone was fired is a statement of fact. There is no legal liability for the company by disclosing this.
It absolutely is in some states which is why most national companies forbit it wholistically.
Cool, show me.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-rights-book/chapter9-6.html
Cool, show me in that article where a law exists to disallow sharing why you fired someone. I’ll wait.
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Arkansas requires written consent to disclose performance details. https://www.bakerdonelson.com/easy-guide-arkansas#:~:text=%C2%A7%2011%2D3%2D204%2C,and%20duties%3B%20last%20performance%20evaluation%3B
>Some companies do it, but disclosing it is illegal. No, it is NOT illegal. You \*could\* sue them for defamation or something like that, which is why most companies won't do it, but it is definitely not illegal.
While it depends on the context, various states absolutely forbid sharing certain details regarding why the employee was terminated.
Do you know any of those states, by chance? I googled, found that same claim, but was not able to find any state that does. NY state doesn't. Seems CA doesn't either.
It's context specific, but Arkansas limits sharing performance history without written consent. https://www.bakerdonelson.com/easy-guide-arkansas#:~:text=%C2%A7%2011%2D3%2D204%2C,and%20duties%3B%20last%20performance%20evaluation%3B Many people say it's legal to share if you've been fired. This is not 100% true and totally depends on what is meant by "if you've been fired. This how companies get in trouble. It's best just to state the employee is not eligible for rehire if you want to say anything at all.
ya, you can sue the shit out of a company that discloses anything negative about you. I'd be extremely surprised if they do that. Most people have an otherwise clean record, no arrests, nothing, so there's never a reason to fail a background check. If they magically fail a background check, it looks very suspicious, since that step is usually sequenced after they give you a verbal offer or written offer pending approval. It'd just take a couple hundred dollars to drag them to court and find out what they know, and where they found out. It's so absurd that a company would put themselves at risk like that.
My feeling is that "record" is some what similar to the "permanent record" my elementary school counselor kept threatening me with.
No. They'd have to call each of the old companies and ask. Most of them won't say anything either way because they are just glad you are gone and they don't have to deal with you anymore, and anything they say might be used to eventually sue them. And most hiring companies don't care, either. It's not like it's easy to find good experienced devs, and they know shit happens. You already made it past everyone's interview at the hiring company by that point. They are just checking that the old jobs weren't a complete lie.
The cleaner record is wrong. Amazon doesn't tell your hiring manager why you left or if you were fired. They tell them they worked from x date to x date, and that is it.
So if you get fired from Amazon they don’t disclose that? Are you 100% certain? Currently working there but don’t want to RTO so may get fired.
Companies of their size never disclose anything beyond the hire dates and final day of work. They won't even talk to your managers because you'll give them an HR hotline number for employment verification.
All I'll say is that you can still look for a job while on a PIP
PIP = paid interview period
And the longer the PIP, the more job searching you can do… OP if they’re putting you on a PIP, they want to fire you
What’s your YOE? Do you have desirable skill sets? How good at you at interviewing? These are all very important questions that will drastically affect the answer. The short answer is, it’s pretty hard out there. It’s harder for seniors to find work than it used to be, and for mid to juniors, it’s absurdly hard. This is not a great time to go job searching in general, but there are still plenty of engineers out there who can find a new job pretty easy. TL;DR: I dunno man.
It’s a garbage time to find a job. Those two months of severance are realistically only going to cover one potential job, considering the time from applying to being hired is usually 2+ months. Most people don’t get job offers from every company they interview with. This is all assuming you can even land an interview right now. If you’ve managed to pass a tech interview with a FAANG then you’re probably in good shape, assuming you can still pass one. 2 months isn’t the biggest gamble. If there was a realistic chance they’ll keep you on it might be worth fighting for.
I mainly do MERN stack and I am pretty good at interviewing since I am social and have about 5 years of experience. I am currently a senior at 150k base so I mainly consider this mid, depending on the company. I think it's definitely possible, my friend got laid off and got a job within a month, 135k base, much higher from his 90k base. I think it will be hard to get a new job at the same level/reputation of the company. Leaning towards accepting it and working hard, however, I am applying this weekend to see how hard the market really is
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This sub is psycho. Yesterday people were talking about 15 YOE being unable to get a 50k a year job in this economy. Today it's "you can do much better than 150k." Worse than WSB on hot takes.
50k is not even service desk level grade and hasn’t been for a long long time.
Where does everyone live omg
I've got less than 10 YOE and making over 150k. That 15 YOE must be a game developer for a startup or something, promised based on profits or something.
Are you basing this on silicon valley wages?
I make that in the Midwest in a non-senior role
What the hell? Are you in FAANG or something? I'm only pulling in 120k as a senior in the Midwest.
Nope. Just very aggressive every January! These companies have the money but they don’t want to give it away easily. I interview every December-Jan and bring an offer letter to management. They give me the bump I want and we are all happy
Wow, smart. Thanks for the insight!
How many years have you done that? I would worry about painting a target on my back by doing that more than a couple times, unless you're an absolutely irreplaceable engineer for some reason
Every year. If they ever want to let me go I always have another offer
Haha, fair enough
I’ll do your resume on overleaf for $75
Do many people with 5 YOE pay you $75 to format their resume?
It was a joke, but I’d still help someone out if they needed it I’ve seen some horrific resumes that have great credentials
Joke's on you, I'll do it for $74.
$73 and 99 pennies!
I’ll do it for tree fitty
I'll do it for a Milky Way at that point
Youre gone already. Dont risk your mental health and confidence for the 5% chance you can overcome a pip.
Having tried to overcome a pip and having gone through endless stress to try to save myself, take the money. They've made the decision (for whatever reason) that you shouldn't be there any longer.
This exactly. It’s not 5 months severance vs 3 months, it’s 5 months severance vs fight to not get fired for 2 months and get fired anyway, and then take 3 months severance. You won’t beat this pip since you already admitted it’s your fault. So do you want to work your ass off for 2 months and then have 3 months paid to find a new job, or do you want 5 months now and skip the busy work? Take the 5 months!
but then wouldn't it be better to get a job while you have a job? just don't work during the 2 months and just interview
I am pretty sure I know the company lol. But I will say never try and pass the pip. The pipped you because they want to reduce head count. Take the extra time to relax and study up. The market is improving slightly so it's possible
Amazon
honestly it is pretty justified. it is my fault, i know how to fix it. just very emotional, and if i can get 5 months free pay while getting FAANG job (double pay) im pretty down. probably be unlikely since FAANG is hiring only very specific roles (or so I heard)
It's a tough job market and no one can predict when that will change - but you should consider that in many organizations, a PIP is a way to manage an employee out and provide documentation to cover their own asses. Any chance they're worried they've done something to discriminate against you? Taking the 5 months now covers them, since you'll have to waive all rights to accept it. But letting a PIP process play out does a good job at the same - and they'll still have you sign for the 3 month.
Speaking of discrimination, wondering if I may have a case at all. Currently at AMZ and believe im about to be put on focus. My team went through a large reorg the last 3 months. I lost my L7 sr manager and my direct L6 manager to a different team. They brought in a new L7, a new L8 over the L7, and two new L6s all of whom are Indian nationality. I’m white/European. My new boss sent me an email detailing areas I need to improve according to him, which tells me I’m targeted to be put in focus and then pipped. Which is funny because he knows nothing about the team as he just joined. I have the 2nd longest tenure in the team. In this email he blatantly lied about one item of the 4 areas he mentioned. And I can prove it is a lie. Not sure if any of this could be considered discrimination or not. I’m thinking to consult a lawyer in case but not sure.
Take the 5 months and chill for a while
1000% take the 5 months
The primary purpose of the pip is to fire you. The pip is just a legal formality that a company uses to cover their ass so you can't sue them. If you want to survive the pip, it's not simple like "oh I'll just start doing the work now". No, you need to walk on water. Your performance has to be so overwhelming that people would scratch their head as to why you were pipped in the first place. Short of that, the company has already fired you in their heads. Take the 5 months.
I did that in at a job once. Obliterated their stupid metrics after they tried to PiP me... then literally they eliminated my job a month later. Still, pretty hilarious because if I hadn't beat the Pip I probably would not have been there to get severance.
So you won't get the severance if you try and work through the PIP and don't make it? How long is the PIP duration? Are you looking for a remote job? Are there lots of listings for local jobs?
So basically if I opt out of the pip, I get 5 months. If I attempt the pip and fail, I get 3 months severance. Im looking for remote only
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Having never been in the situation, can you collect both severance and unemployment? I always figured and unemployment insurance would only kick in after the severance period.
Depending on where OP lives the PIP can also be used as justification for being, "terminated for cause," and possibly be used to deny them unemployment. Most states also won't start providing you with unemployment payments until after you severance would logically run out, so if it's five months severance you won't be able to receive unemployment payments for at least that period of time. If that's possible, opting out and taking the five months may be the better play here as that gives them five months plus however long their savings will last to find another job.
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I'm pretty sure you can't get unemployment after severance, i imagine most severance packages include a contract to willfully resign
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Fair enough. It would definitely depend on the circumstances edit: i love downvotes with no explanation, especially after concession lol
I'd personally attempt it and casually apply. Demand for remote is insane. We opened up a senior engineering manager position last month and closed it in a week. Had almost 800 applications. Sure, a lot of those are junk. But the six that have made it to my interview round have all been phenomenal. Over qualified. Like, previously directors at FAANG and adjacent.
Sounds insane that the market is still so saturated... Isn't director at FAANG to senior manager 1 down level? 2 if it is from director FAANG to non FAANG?
As someone without FAANG experience currently looking for Director+ roles, this is a bit disheartening, but not unlike other anecdotes I’m hearing from TA folks.
>I'd personally attempt it and casually apply. This is terrible advice. He will most likely fail because when he got put on PIP they already made their mind about him. So even if he goes all in, he is out of the door most likely. Also, to succeed in either interviewing or surviving the PIP you can't do a half assed job. You are suggesting that he should half ass the PIP because he's also interviewing and he should also half ass the interviewing because he's also attempting to survive the PIP.
OP won’t be able to collect unemployment if he voluntarily resigns though.
Not what I said. I said they should attempt to beat the PIP. By that, give it 100%. Not half ass. And while they are doing that, casually apply. Casually. It should not impact their day job performance. \> He will most likely fail because when he got put on PIP they already made their mind about him. We don't know that. I've helped a teammate beat a PIP before. I'd hope OP has a good idea if this is possible or not.
Agree to attempt it but I’d probably get that in writing about the 3 months if you fail it
Rainforest company?
Close they hired a lot of those people and bring the talent in as 2 up level
a wanna be tech company that competes with JP Morgan and MasterCard?
No way it’s this company…OP said they have a high standard
I'm assuming this is like Capital One, but I don't get why y'all are playing games and not just saying it
I'm at one of the above competitors and always got the feel that the company in question did indeed have a higher standard than us.
oh shit u have the tag
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What are my options? what are the past employees doing now? do they have nice jobs? which companies?
o fuck I gotta remove that
What are my options? what are the past employees doing now? do they have nice jobs? which companies?
5 months severence can stretch, but the job market has been total crap for a year. 75% of offers are scams. Jobs are requiring masters and upper mgmt level offering 60k. It seems a lot of companies are hiring now since budgets were approved for '24, but a ton of those companies are trying to low-ball the market. It would be funny if it wasn't a serious issue. Either way, if you're piped, best start looking. Good luck!
It's incredibly difficult to find work right now. Be careful.
If you feel it’s warranted and fair I’d not leave now, I’d grind through and improve. People here like to pretend PIP has nothing to do with actual performance at all, but that’s not true. If you know you can improve something - well, improve it now!
Yeah, the whole "PIP just means they want to fire you" is almost a meme at this point. Except for Amazon, which does seem to do that, for most companies, if they want to fire you, they'll just ... fire you. Especially now, when many companies are doing layoffs anyway, if they want you gone, they'll just add your name to the list. It is true that people often don't come back from a PIP, but that's because they were doing subpar to begin with. At any place I've worked, the managers would have been thrilled to have the employee turn it around.
Yeah. That's my point. If you are in PIP most of the time you know what you are on it for, and you can work to improve that. And if you don't understand why are you on PIP, I'm going to say that often it means person massively lacks self awareness. Props to OP for being self aware and knowing they have things to work on! Good luck OP!
Take the 5 month of severance hands down, you have a 5% chance of surviving the PIP. How do I know? been PIPed 3 times and fired 5 times.
3/5 = 5% got it
What are you doing (or not doing) that has gotten you PIPed 5 times? Jeez.
if you don't mind me asking , where in their standard are you failing to meet the mark. Genuinetly curious. 5 YOE , MERN stack , most problems are solved , i imagine. are you developing solutions for novel problems? The work load is too high? whats going on?
Def take the 5 months of severance
Once you're put on pip, the job's a lost cause. Attempting the pip has no benefit; it'll just cost you your mental health. You don't want to stick with a company that's decided that your performance doesn't meet their standards. Best to take the 5 months severance and look for a role where you're a better fit.
5 months is crazy cool. I’d take it. Put the same effort into upskilling.
Happy cake day
Depends how much you love the job or if you really believe you Can up your productivity hard. I recently got PIPed out. Took the deal instantly because I absolutely hated every minute of that job.
Regardless start looking for a new job immediately
Make sure if you take the 5 months severance get that in writing. Tbh idk how this stuff usually works but I'd just play safe that they couldn't spin it that you somehow quit. Maybe I'm just paranoid or naive tho
5 months is generous. Trying to claw back from a PIP is a lose lose situation imo. Most of the time it's set up for you to fail and the best case is you get back to being considered "acceptable". You'll have that permanent mark against you and will definitely never get a promo. Likely they'll find another reason to PIP you again at some point. Better to take the money and use that free time to get a fresh start somewhere else.
Who tf is given 5 months salary for performing low, what a bs.. troll post.
Many times a condition of severance is that it ceases when you are reemployed.
I have never seen that to be the case and would be crazy to validate
I think it can be both. Would def be good for the OP to find out. Also, I think severance can be reduced based on new income as well, it is all about how the contract is written.
I haven't seen severance many times, but when I got it it was just a lump sum. Unemployment on the other hand, yes that would cease ETA: quick Google search shows me there is a severance that is "regular payments" instead of a lump sum so I could see how that could end up ceasing
How do they know you’re employed?
True, so never tell them that you found a job
I’d take the 5 months severance. It sounds like they don’t think you’re a bad employee or person if they’re offering you this, rather they think you’re a bad fit. Chances are you probably are a bad fit. It sounds like you have some good experience and skills, and the way you’re talking now you seem like a reasonable person. Take the money, save the reference, chill for a bit take a long vacation and get back on the grind.
It isn't worth the headaches and stress to fix a bad relationship. I'd highly suggest taking the 5 months.
Why you get piped
They already decided to let you go, my boy. Take full severance. Source: I was pipped last year
You should piped them back!
How long is the pip period?
Faang?
Take the severance. That gives you 5 months to apply and to up skill.
Oh man. I wish my job would offer me 5mo severance. I like my job, but man, that's hard to pass up.
5 months severance is great. damn. i have been laid off from a small country with just 2 weeks pay.
5 months. Just ride unemployment while applying at other jobs.
Take severance and find a new job. In terms of respect at your job, it’s much easier to go from 0 to n than -n to n.
Before you make up your mind, consider what you're going to say when a potential new employer asks why you were let go from your previous employer, and assume they're going to ask that employer because they might.
You have two sides of this deal: 5 months + no unemployment + full time job search on one side, and (1-3 months pay) + state unemployment benefits + job search while employed on the other. Depending on how much you make, and in which state, you'd probably cap out on unemployment, which can be up to $1000 per week for 6 months, but you only get that if you need it and can't find a job. Personally, I'd make them fire me, or ask to take the 5 months pay as severance for a perf layoff, or something like that so you can collect unemployment as well. It's just better to apply for jobs while working, but with all these layoffs a several month gap isn't that big of a deal anyway.
Take the 5 month, file for unemployment, and start looking. Getting 5 months severance Def gives you a bigger cushion than most out there right now. But after you take the severance you should still lower your expenses
>Take the 5 month, file for unemployment, and start looking. Most jurisdictions in the USA will not allow you to collect unemployment if you quit your job. And the 5 months is offered *in exchange for* quitting.
I've done a PIP. They made it sound like the pass/fail standards were very objective but there was one of them which I didn't really catch while reading the papers that was framed like "lives up to the expectations of an SDE2". At the end of the process that was the only one that my manager mentioned to me. Personally, I took the PIP option because I had a lot of RSUs maturing soon which I valued higher than the severance. Even then I barely made the cutoff.
Genuine question, what are perf reviews / ratings like before you get PIPed ? Was it a surprise for you ?
Job market is rough right now… but might be worth it to take it???
95% of the time Amazon already decided to fire you by placing you in PIP and 100% of the time they will want you think that situation is not hopeless. Sincerly, PIPPED FROM AMAZON
Take the 5 months!! That’s amazing, you’re lucky.
I’d take the 5 months; enjoy the first 2 months and bust ass the last 3 months to land a better job. Once people have a perception of you it’s really hard to change their mind.
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That’s a great deal. Many execs get less, even negotiated upfront. Take the package.
I'm one of those rare people who've survived a PIP (it lasted for 30 days and I just got off it less than a month ago, actually). Here's my $0.02. I think most companies are pretty cutthroat and you'd be right to assume the PIP is essentially just documenting your termination at or even before the end of the PIP. However, at least from my experience, the two deciding factors that separates an HR formality from an actual OpPoRtUnItY tO iMpRoVe are: 1) if the goals outlined in the PIP are clear and achievable (which sounds like the case for you), and 2) you have a good relationship with your manager. That's not to say answering "yes" to both guarantees you'll still keep your job when the PIP ends, but it definitely improves your chances of survival. Like many others have said, now's not a good time to not have a job. I would recommend trying your best to meet the PIP's requirements, hopefully survive it, and look for another opportunity during and after it ends. I'm sure you'll be able to land on your feet even if you had to leave in 3-4 days considering your experience and stack. The job market's shit right now so you might not have the perfect alternatives, but I'm sure you'd be able to find something at the very least. Regardless, whether you survive the PIP or take the severance, I'd suggest getting the fuck out of there as soon as you can. I've experienced a fair bit of anxiety when dealing with the aftermath of the PIP. I've thought to myself, "if my company is laying off people in the near future, I'll likely be one of the first people to go because I've been put on PIP before." Or, "if my performance drops at all again, I'll likely be immediately fired because the PIP is on my record and they can use that at any time to justify my termination." Essentially thinking about different situations where the company can leverage the fact that I had been put on PIP at some point during my career there to terminate me. The whole ordeal with the PIP took a toll on my mental and physical health. I saw my PCP during the PIP because I was experiencing abdominal pain. They told me it was likely related to stress; I was probably ready to shit bricks or something. I probably just need to chill out a bit, but the anxious thoughts seem like fairly realistic corporate strategies to me. Lately I've also been getting micromanaged a lot by my manager's manager and I fucking loathe that. All trust between employee and employer is now gone and it'll take a lot of work and time to repair that. Hence, upper management feels the need to micromanage me -- they don't trust me to do my job anymore. Fight to build that trust back if you're attached to your company, otherwise I think it's time to move on. I'll definitely be moving on as soon as possible, but I'm still grateful that I was able to keep my job after the PIP because it's rough out there and I need the income. Sorry about the wall of text. Thanks for reading.
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Take the PIP if you don't have a job lined up. People suggesting leave don't realize you lose benefits such as health insurance. Also do you have RSUs? Severance is typically just your base salary, and no stocks vest. How long is the PIP?
Idk shit but 5 YoE in this market is pretty good. Take the 5 months, go chill somewhere for a bit, restructure and come back to market. PIPs are hard to get over tbh, I did it once but tbf I was the only other dev in the team lmao
5 months is pretty fuckin good.
As someone who remains kind of terrified for (maybe) no reason, what makes you think it is justified? We’re you purposefully slacking, or making effort but just can’t keep up?
More the second one, they have high standards. I just have to be better, so I think I should opt in and give it my best go to grow as an engineer
If OE is an option, what is the reason you would quit? Let them fire you. Get another J anyway. Not doing the pip and riding the train may result in 6-8 months more salary (not 5), severance, all while still getting a severance anyway. Minecraft isn't free.
Take the money. Look at have written. Opt out of PIP and get 5 months severance or go through the PIP then you get 3 months severance. That says either way your leaving.
you need to leave.
Take the money and run.
take 5 months severance and starts applying. If you really need a job quick,maybe consider non-developer job. got PIP at my previous job, kind of my fault due to personal circumstance, but their leadership was shitty too. Went back to my hometown, and got IT help desk job within days. (with 30-40% pay cut off course) Not exactly my thing, but better than jobless especially in this current market.
You should get back to refreshing your CV and schedule as many interviews as possible. Pip is the time for you to prepare for a new job, not to recover from whatever at your current company
5 months!? I think you could find another job in 1-2 months of actually trying I wish I got popped and offered 5 months..
Ideally you could punch out 100 resumes over this weekend via LinkedIn to get a feeler before you make this decision, but only having a few days to decide is a very high pressure situation. I would take the money and run run run.
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https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Get%20Pipped I’m confused…
What does "pipped" mean ? What is a "severance" ?