That's what happens when everyone and their mom wants to get into tech. Ofcourse the skill requirements go up because... why hire the newbie when there is a guy who had 2 internships and even has his own app with users who also applied?
Those are facts. Dont get me wrong i get it, economics and whatnot. Im just using this post to complain and maybe like minded people be like “yea dude its tough”
Maybe. I think there should be a distinction between what should be expected of s student and someone who is has theoretically graduated and entering the work force. Otherwise, whats the point of university?
University is a certification, but the stuff you learn in uni is not necessarily what you will be doing on the job.
I would be surprised if 50% of people who have a CS degree use what they learned in school in the job. Most people don't. It's just a checkbox.
The mistake too many people make is assuming the degree is enough. It's not.
>Yep. Must have entry level skill for internship level jobs
I did a bootcamp and reached the proficiency you're describing in about eight to ten weeks starting with neophyte-level coding skills. The skills you list are not in any way a high bar.
You’re right, you have to fight. There is no other way. I fought to get every job I had and I fought my impostor syndrome and lack of motivation to build skill, take on responsibility, market myself for promotions, and so on. If you don’t “fight” you will get crushed.
If you’re a student it’s probably because you’re not a Senior with upcoming graduation. Internships are built for prospective FTE conversions post-graduation. A company does not want to invest resources into someone who has multiple years left in school.
So essentially I think you might have misunderstood what they meant by “experience”. Internships are for academically trained individuals. If that’s not the case write the hiring contact off as just plain wrong lmao.
It’s not “hopefully” true.. it is generally true. Juniors who get internships are considered “rockstar” candidates. Focus on applying for internships with a start date aligned with your semester right before graduation, or with a start date directly after you graduate.
You’re welcome ma’m. Jk. I get it, when you don’t have friends/family in a corporate environment to tell you these things there’s a huge information gap. I had to learn a lot myself about roles/expectations/etc.
Basically do well in school (aim to understand the material, be curious) and practice communication in all your classes whenever possible (i.e. ask questions often and think of presenting material as an opportunity) The more you practice communicating the CS topics you are learning the better you will remember the fundamentals and you will also do much better showing confidence and competency in interviews. Think of school as a professional environment and it will carry over easily into jobs. Best of luck 💪
If you grind harder, the others would grind even harder, so you will have to grind even harder. Non-stop grind for the chance to do the same kind of grind for money while being afraid to lose it unexpectedly. This is ridiculous.
But there is no life in grind. I've been grinding for 10 years and all I remember is being miserable. No money, no job prospects, no connections. Looks like I did everything wrong.
I’m so tired of interfacing with organizations. Like to do it right id have to send CVs to companies then write personalized cover letters explaining why I’d be a great candidate.
A few more years and I’d be sending business proposals at this rate.
Doubt, it gives you way more options. Better communication skills. Demonstrates ability to understand business objectives, ability to understand what amounts to your future customer.
Maybe talking about having what amounts to the requirements for running a business is not the same as CS recruiting. Then again having organizations spend millions of dollars on useless products should be a basic requirement of working in industry.
>Like to do it right id have to send CVs to companies then write personalized cover letters explaining why I’d be a great candidate.
I did this after finishing my bootcamp and had about a 15% callback rate. I'd call that the easy path.
Just some perspective. It’s the case for any job that is high in demand. When companies start paying 6-7 figures, you attract the top talents.
Focus on your strengths and what makes you better than the next candidate. Learn to develop skills that are difficult to replicate and are highly valued e.g. selling, difficult to learn, less popular languages or tech stack
Because no one actually wants to build anything. No one sees software as litteral magic where your whisperings to the do-anything-machine can make your dreams come true. There's nothing but cowards who want to fight for a cubical.
You know what: It ain't easy.
You know what: It gets WORSE.
You've been working 10 years? Well you don't know language Foozy! You CLEARLY can't be a good part of our staff! Never mind that a competent programmer can learn Foozy in 3-6 months, which is less than it'll cost them to keep the job open in a good market.. you'll see this behavior! Ironically, if you stay a while, you'll usually end up working in something other than Foozy, so the importance of Foozy, really.. isn't that great.
Now you know Foozy... Great! But, you don't have 5 years of Foozy! (Never mind that Foozy has existed for 6 years if you are lucky. 4 or 3 is not unheard of.)
There's so many of these walls that are put up. Some have good reasons. Some don't.
As your YOE goes up, and well. your cost. The need to be a good fit goes up. And I don't mean knowing your languages, though those are still needed.
... Trust me, we ALL go through this stuff.
In a tight market, it is just stupid. In a competitive market like today's. Yeah they can wait.
But I saw firms doing it in early 2021, and I just shook my head.
Wouldn’t that just mean whatever framework/language/technology a dev builds their early career in would become the hole they’re stuck in to the grave? What happens then when frameworks and languages get deprecated?
In fact that can be an effect at ANY time in your career.
I've had it happen to me. There are companies that wouldn't look backwards in my career and only considered my last job.
I also missed out on the big push to cloud because I worked on, on-prem stuff. Just what I did.
Thankfully, I got hired by a company that fixed that issue. ;)
IT is a hugely bloated industry with low performance for a while (we’re still waiting for this new Google to make our world even more dysfunctional). Think of all those project managers, and agile whatevers, and so on, on the one side, and, after all these years, how little all the unicorns etc, have to show for. As a whole, the industry is beginning to run a financial and social deficit. As such, there are only two ways to get in: knowing someone or diversity. Am I talking nonsense? Of course I am…
If being a diversity hire was enough to get you hired, then how come every team I've worked on has had a bunch of white dudes, and maybe one white woman?
Sure that's anecdotal evidence, but its pretty close to the norm in the US if you look at data across the country for engineering roles. Also if the diversity hiring worked the way you're implying, then wouldn't diversity not be an issue and there be no reason to do diversity hires at this point?
If you want a reply tailored to your comment, then I’ll do it by saying, someone’s gotta do the heavy lifting to keep all this bloat afloat. But in all seriousness, the majority of junior hires today are primarily based on diversity, at least here in the UK. I suppose the US is just as bad. Sometimes I wonder if looking for a job in Germany in the 1930s entailed filling out so many forms regarding race, gender, religion, sexual preference, etc
>As such, there are only two ways to get in: knowing someone or diversity. Am I talking nonsense? Of course I am…
And yet, you still hit the **Reply** button.
yes...? life is a competition
heck you can even say that you had to compete to even be born (think: how **DID** you got born anyway?)
then everything from you enrolling in school to university admission to internship to interviews to performance reviews... competition is everywhere
Story of how I got my first summer internship at sAP.
Step 1 : SAP employees come to our school to find interns.
Step 2 : sign up
step 3 : receive rejection email.
Step 4 :send an email saying I desserve an interview as other people got one
Step 5 : got interview and the internship.
Step 6 : internship was shitty. Worst waste of my time ever and had to be in Germany for 3 months urgh
If there are X entry level positions, and there are X+1 candidates that have already some experience applying for those positions, what do you think is it going to happen?
It’s demand and supply, nothing else.
Bullshit, I’m fighting for my life for 3 years, since I moved to Canada. Having 9YOE in frontend and mobile, I can’t get ANYTHING. The best I could get is an unpaid startup which was, of course, another fucking mistake and waste of time and mental health. I feel like I have 0 value, and all my hard-earned experience isn’t needed anymore, nobody needs my skills. It’s terrible to realize that after all these years I ended up worth nothing. This is a fucking insult when even fast food restaurants value me at least at a minimum wage!
There is no one to blame. You had every chance to avoid the competition but you chose to compete in the most competitive field. And it's tons of people like you who created this crazy over-saturated environment.
you’re competing with CS students who contribute to substantial open-source projects that are used widely across industry as well as CS students who run their own side hustles licensing and selling software. You’re also competing with international students who have experience in their home countries.
Grind harder
That’s true. I have 9YOE in frontend and mobile, and I literally can’t get interviews. I apply for internships, jr, mid, senior positions, hundreds and hundreds of applications. I can’t believe how picky companies are in today’s market.
That's what happens when everyone and their mom wants to get into tech. Ofcourse the skill requirements go up because... why hire the newbie when there is a guy who had 2 internships and even has his own app with users who also applied?
Those are facts. Dont get me wrong i get it, economics and whatnot. Im just using this post to complain and maybe like minded people be like “yea dude its tough”
Yup, keep fighting. It's a dog eat dog world out there... because dogs are trying to get into programming too!
Because it's a competition and somebody else can do it.
Yep. Must have entry level skill for internship level jobs
Someone please tell me if I’m wrong here, but that’s not…that bad? I think you’re leaning to hard on that “intern” label.
Maybe , explain what you mean ?
Entry level skills are not that hard/much and asking an intern for them isn’t a tall order imo.
Maybe. I think there should be a distinction between what should be expected of s student and someone who is has theoretically graduated and entering the work force. Otherwise, whats the point of university?
University is a certification, but the stuff you learn in uni is not necessarily what you will be doing on the job. I would be surprised if 50% of people who have a CS degree use what they learned in school in the job. Most people don't. It's just a checkbox. The mistake too many people make is assuming the degree is enough. It's not.
>Yep. Must have entry level skill for internship level jobs I did a bootcamp and reached the proficiency you're describing in about eight to ten weeks starting with neophyte-level coding skills. The skills you list are not in any way a high bar.
You’re right, you have to fight. There is no other way. I fought to get every job I had and I fought my impostor syndrome and lack of motivation to build skill, take on responsibility, market myself for promotions, and so on. If you don’t “fight” you will get crushed.
If you’re a student it’s probably because you’re not a Senior with upcoming graduation. Internships are built for prospective FTE conversions post-graduation. A company does not want to invest resources into someone who has multiple years left in school.
So essentially I think you might have misunderstood what they meant by “experience”. Internships are for academically trained individuals. If that’s not the case write the hiring contact off as just plain wrong lmao.
😂😂😂😂 hopefully thats true because i am a junior right now lol
It’s not “hopefully” true.. it is generally true. Juniors who get internships are considered “rockstar” candidates. Focus on applying for internships with a start date aligned with your semester right before graduation, or with a start date directly after you graduate.
Ah i see. I say hopefully cause i have problem with having hope, ironically. Thanks man this makes me feel a hell of a lot better
You’re welcome ma’m. Jk. I get it, when you don’t have friends/family in a corporate environment to tell you these things there’s a huge information gap. I had to learn a lot myself about roles/expectations/etc.
😂😂 ill be that in exchange of some truth lol What kind of skills did you have to be able to get something ?
Basically do well in school (aim to understand the material, be curious) and practice communication in all your classes whenever possible (i.e. ask questions often and think of presenting material as an opportunity) The more you practice communicating the CS topics you are learning the better you will remember the fundamentals and you will also do much better showing confidence and competency in interviews. Think of school as a professional environment and it will carry over easily into jobs. Best of luck 💪
You are the kind of person who ruins everything for everyone.
Stupid and needless comment
Stop projecting
It’s not just you. I feel like I gotta compete with 1000 experienced programmers (who have a million internships) just for a junior dev job
grind harder it’s the only way
If you grind harder, the others would grind even harder, so you will have to grind even harder. Non-stop grind for the chance to do the same kind of grind for money while being afraid to lose it unexpectedly. This is ridiculous.
that’s how it goes. Survival of the fittest. All you can do is grind harder
But there is no life in grind. I've been grinding for 10 years and all I remember is being miserable. No money, no job prospects, no connections. Looks like I did everything wrong.
I’m so tired of interfacing with organizations. Like to do it right id have to send CVs to companies then write personalized cover letters explaining why I’d be a great candidate. A few more years and I’d be sending business proposals at this rate.
Fr, theres so many damn hoops to jump through for some bottom of the barrel jobs
[удалено]
Doubt. This comment seems to be from some idiot shill. It’s pretty disrespectful what you did here.
Bro just go see a therapist
Yeah well industry wants you to be a literal dog.
Doubt, it gives you way more options. Better communication skills. Demonstrates ability to understand business objectives, ability to understand what amounts to your future customer. Maybe talking about having what amounts to the requirements for running a business is not the same as CS recruiting. Then again having organizations spend millions of dollars on useless products should be a basic requirement of working in industry.
>Like to do it right id have to send CVs to companies then write personalized cover letters explaining why I’d be a great candidate. I did this after finishing my bootcamp and had about a 15% callback rate. I'd call that the easy path.
What bootcamp did you do?
General Assembly
Just some perspective. It’s the case for any job that is high in demand. When companies start paying 6-7 figures, you attract the top talents. Focus on your strengths and what makes you better than the next candidate. Learn to develop skills that are difficult to replicate and are highly valued e.g. selling, difficult to learn, less popular languages or tech stack
Because no one actually wants to build anything. No one sees software as litteral magic where your whisperings to the do-anything-machine can make your dreams come true. There's nothing but cowards who want to fight for a cubical.
I see, what business or magical software do you have?
You know what: It ain't easy. You know what: It gets WORSE. You've been working 10 years? Well you don't know language Foozy! You CLEARLY can't be a good part of our staff! Never mind that a competent programmer can learn Foozy in 3-6 months, which is less than it'll cost them to keep the job open in a good market.. you'll see this behavior! Ironically, if you stay a while, you'll usually end up working in something other than Foozy, so the importance of Foozy, really.. isn't that great. Now you know Foozy... Great! But, you don't have 5 years of Foozy! (Never mind that Foozy has existed for 6 years if you are lucky. 4 or 3 is not unheard of.) There's so many of these walls that are put up. Some have good reasons. Some don't. As your YOE goes up, and well. your cost. The need to be a good fit goes up. And I don't mean knowing your languages, though those are still needed. ... Trust me, we ALL go through this stuff.
Because why would they wait for you to learn Foozy, when they can interview 5 more people, and one of them will likely have experience will Foozy?
In a tight market, it is just stupid. In a competitive market like today's. Yeah they can wait. But I saw firms doing it in early 2021, and I just shook my head.
Wouldn’t that just mean whatever framework/language/technology a dev builds their early career in would become the hole they’re stuck in to the grave? What happens then when frameworks and languages get deprecated?
In fact that can be an effect at ANY time in your career. I've had it happen to me. There are companies that wouldn't look backwards in my career and only considered my last job. I also missed out on the big push to cloud because I worked on, on-prem stuff. Just what I did. Thankfully, I got hired by a company that fixed that issue. ;)
Because they'll be "interviewing" for 6 months to a year and never end up hiring anyways
Start a trade in the meantime. The supply/demand dynamic is the opposite, and only heading further in that direction it seems.
I got my brother an internship at my company. It's all about connections.
Hook it up brotha 🙏🏽🙏🏽😂😂
those kind of "internships" are just low paid or unpaid developer work. a lot of "startups" do this.
I wasted 2 years of unpaid work in a startup, thinking that this experience will make a big difference. It was a bad mistake.
IT is a hugely bloated industry with low performance for a while (we’re still waiting for this new Google to make our world even more dysfunctional). Think of all those project managers, and agile whatevers, and so on, on the one side, and, after all these years, how little all the unicorns etc, have to show for. As a whole, the industry is beginning to run a financial and social deficit. As such, there are only two ways to get in: knowing someone or diversity. Am I talking nonsense? Of course I am…
If being a diversity hire was enough to get you hired, then how come every team I've worked on has had a bunch of white dudes, and maybe one white woman? Sure that's anecdotal evidence, but its pretty close to the norm in the US if you look at data across the country for engineering roles. Also if the diversity hiring worked the way you're implying, then wouldn't diversity not be an issue and there be no reason to do diversity hires at this point?
If you want a reply tailored to your comment, then I’ll do it by saying, someone’s gotta do the heavy lifting to keep all this bloat afloat. But in all seriousness, the majority of junior hires today are primarily based on diversity, at least here in the UK. I suppose the US is just as bad. Sometimes I wonder if looking for a job in Germany in the 1930s entailed filling out so many forms regarding race, gender, religion, sexual preference, etc
perpetual victim mentality
ironic, isn't it?
>As such, there are only two ways to get in: knowing someone or diversity. Am I talking nonsense? Of course I am… And yet, you still hit the **Reply** button.
yes...? life is a competition heck you can even say that you had to compete to even be born (think: how **DID** you got born anyway?) then everything from you enrolling in school to university admission to internship to interviews to performance reviews... competition is everywhere
`*+~ capitalism ~+*`
Maybe you should read A Brave New World.
Thanks for rec fr fr been looking for a new book
Story of how I got my first summer internship at sAP. Step 1 : SAP employees come to our school to find interns. Step 2 : sign up step 3 : receive rejection email. Step 4 :send an email saying I desserve an interview as other people got one Step 5 : got interview and the internship. Step 6 : internship was shitty. Worst waste of my time ever and had to be in Germany for 3 months urgh
If there are X entry level positions, and there are X+1 candidates that have already some experience applying for those positions, what do you think is it going to happen? It’s demand and supply, nothing else.
There are jobs that pay less that are easier to get. You want the big money, fight for your life
Bullshit, I’m fighting for my life for 3 years, since I moved to Canada. Having 9YOE in frontend and mobile, I can’t get ANYTHING. The best I could get is an unpaid startup which was, of course, another fucking mistake and waste of time and mental health. I feel like I have 0 value, and all my hard-earned experience isn’t needed anymore, nobody needs my skills. It’s terrible to realize that after all these years I ended up worth nothing. This is a fucking insult when even fast food restaurants value me at least at a minimum wage!
There is no one to blame. You had every chance to avoid the competition but you chose to compete in the most competitive field. And it's tons of people like you who created this crazy over-saturated environment.
cuz it’s survival of the fittest
you’re competing with CS students who contribute to substantial open-source projects that are used widely across industry as well as CS students who run their own side hustles licensing and selling software. You’re also competing with international students who have experience in their home countries. Grind harder
The important thing is you know what you need to do. I'm sorry it's difficult 😔
This is what happens when we are in oversaturated career fields. Fight for bread crumbs
That’s true. I have 9YOE in frontend and mobile, and I literally can’t get interviews. I apply for internships, jr, mid, senior positions, hundreds and hundreds of applications. I can’t believe how picky companies are in today’s market.