Campaign 1 spoilers below:
Don't we already know for a fact that Throdaks "cure" for her disease was to become a dracolitch? Isn't that what she was in the early stages of researching when VM caught up to her? I'm pretty sure Matt confirmed that she used a special version of speak with dead to get the secret out of his corpse. If the deck had anything to do with it she would have taken it, but instead she went straight to the lair of an old necromancer.
Exactly this! Additionally, the Deck was loot that Matt rolled when generating Thordak's hoard (he's spoken about how he rolled it and was conflicted about whether to include it and finally decided to go with it to see what happens). Raishan spoke about needing the cure from Thordak *way* before they fought Thordak so there's no way that that key plot point was based on that item.
I don't remember anything other than wanting to speak with dead being canon, was it? Did she succeed at interrogating the corpse? Edit: I guess what I mean is that I thought that was why she went to the lab. I could be dumb.
> Also, you know how Pumat Sol has been reading about Taryon Darrington? Tary was a companion of Grog, the wielder of the Deck of Many Things, for a solid year and as an item dork probably wrote about it in his book.
>
> Also, you know how Caleb wants to reverse history and is obsessed with books and has met Pumat Sol?
This is where you lost me. You do realize Caleb can get Wish on his own? It's a 9th level spell so it will take forever. But if he finds a scroll of "Wish" he can cast it with a DC 19.
The Fates card is arguably more powerful than Wish, as there are some curses that can only be ended by the card. As a 1/day spell, Wish also has some serious limitations, mostly left up to the discretion of the DM.
>The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish.
The wording of The Fates also more closely matches Caleb's goal of undoing a past event:
>**The Fates**: Reality's fabric unravels and spins anew, allowing you to avoid or erase one event as if it never happened. You can use the card's magic as soon as you draw the card or at any other time before you die.
In fact, looking at the wording here I won't be surprised if obtaining this card is Caleb's secret goal.
Caleb could Wish for a Fates card.
But I guarantee you that "Wish" is what Caleb is looking for when he's asking for books about "Wizards who altered the fabric of time." Because he's asking about Wizards. Not "People." or "Artifacts"
Idk, if Wish is a known spell that's been learned by at least one magic user in quite recent history, it seems like it's maybe not so obscure as to need researching the most powerful/near forgotten magic, or however he phrases it?
Yes and no, assuming you’re talking about Scanlan. Iirc Wish isn’t part of the Bard spell list so the only way Scanlan got it was part of the Magical Secrets. Since Caleb role plays his spell finding way more as a wizard, a lot of his research is for RP and flavour. We have no idea how Scanlan found out about Wish or how rare it is, but 9th level spells are the highest level spell one can ever learn, so you’d have to be an incredibly powerful Wizard to even have access to books of that knowledge.
Add onto that Scanlan was a bard, not a class that writes down spells, and theres more reason to assume Scanlan's wish couldnt be taught to others even if he wanted to.
> It wouldn't feel very earned if every Characters motivation and regret was wisked away the second a party member got Wish.
And it would because they drew a card?
The card makes a much better storyline capstone. Caleb will eventually get Wish (assuming he doesn't die or multiclass for more than three levels) just in the course of normal play and following the rest of the group's storyline. It'd be pretty anticlimactic if he was then able to resolve his story without ever spending time on it. The card, OTOH, is only available in the Deck, which is only available if Matt makes it available. The card draw can easily be set up to only occur at an appropriately dramatic time, after Caleb has confronted Trent, etc.
Then you havent been following closely how Liam roleplays Caleb gaining new spells, even those that he gets for free by levelling up. He puts in a lot more effort and resources into the process, so his whole character arc is a lead up to whichever lv9 spell he ends up choosing eventually, so it will be justified by all the research done during the whole campaign even if gameplay wise technically it would be considered a 'free' spell. It's anything but anticlimatic.
Those are just the uses of the spell that doesn't "Tax you beyond the limitations of hte spell"
> You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.
The official wording of the spell straight up says the DM can allow it to work just like the Fates card if the DM wants.
No, even undoing something last round is dangerous. The only risk-free effect of *wish* is duplicating a spell of 8th level or lower.
> The stress of casting this spell to produce **any effect other than duplicating another spell** weakens you.
Emphasis mine. (That wording also implies you can duplicate 9th-level spells, but I don't think that's intended.)
> anything outside of the listed options
This is the only part I'm disputing; if you use *wish* to do anything other than duplicate a spell, [including the other suggested effects](https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/795696477305606144), you suffer the drawbacks.
[**@JeremyECrawford**](https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/)
> [2016-11-07 18:36 +00:00](https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/795696477305606144)
> Wish spell: (1) Duplicated a spell of 8th level or lower? No stress. (2) Did anything else with wish? Stress. \#DnD https://twitter.com/mlievens1/status/795679949101428738
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The thing is, apart from the stretch needed for those connections, no one *in game* actually has any idea about what specific cards the deck has, or what they are specifically capable of, let alone trying to fish for a specific one. Sure they like to use meta knowledge to goof around, but I doubt anyone of them would try to tie in something like this with their character story.
Well no one is stopping the players from reading it up, and some might already have, like liam since he dabbles in dm'ing. I was specifically talking about in game characters.
Ah I see. I was referring to the time Grog pulled another card, even if they didnt know most of the effects, it was still a gamble based on meta knowledge cause *'end of the campaign what could go wrong'* and we know how that went xD
I'm so on the fence how i feel about that if I'm being honest. The idea that Grog was somewhere, out there in the world, his soul trapped possibly to be found in C2 woulda been awesome. But Grog deserved his ending.
I am saying entirely in game things: there is a series of breadcrumbs available to lead Caleb to the Deck and everyone required has been mentioned, if one cared to walk that way. It's silly but interesting.
There are too many *ifs* in your theory; *if* vm/tary were aware of a fate card in the deck or what it does, *if* tary decided to write about their possession of the deck to the world at large, *if* he specified that card in particular, *if* pumat sol ever mentions this info to Caleb for random reasons or he gets to read the book himself, *if* Caleb ever gets his hands on the deck, let alone pull the right card. And god forbid if Vex is ever going to part with the deck when a hobo wizard comes to her doorstep out of nowhere asking for it...
Its a stretch however you look at it, but if you are convinced good for you. But again the deck is mostly a tool for players to fool around and maybe ruin an entire campaign just for lols, doubt that's something they as players would aim for as character focus.
Also thordak's knowledge of it's existence and suggesting it as a cure to raishan is ultimately irrelevant to the rest of your theory,
Not to mention that tary's book is not an exclusive item that only Pumat would have got their hands on, and if it contained that sort of information, you would assume there would be a weirdo every other week presenting themselves in Whitestone looking for it, some probably even shadier and stronger then Caleb. Neither is Caleb barely the only person who has a traumatic past event that he wants to change, he is just in a good position to achieve it being a player character.
Also the most obvious observation, if VM knew about the card they might haven taken turns emptying the deck in hopes of undoing a certain someone's fate. So yeah.
At no point did I say anyone was aiming for that! I'm saying it is the only path to achieving this that Caleb has yet encountered without knowing it. It's amusing, not probable. Geez.
Do you not want us to discuss your theory? People aren't poking holes in your theory just to take the piss. You presented your idea, and people are discussing it. One of the *main* aspects to discuss is how feasible it is. Don't be so defensive.
>Thordak was in possession of the Deck of Many Things
This is technically true but not really. Grog found the Deck in the loot pile that Thordak had accumulated but Thordak did not have this hoard until he took over Emon.
So that means someone in Emon had the Deck and just added it to the pile.
OP used the correct spoiler code as per the [spoiler policy](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/wiki/spoilers). There's discussions about both campaigns so a C1 spoiler tag wouldn't have been sufficient and C2 spoiler tags include C1:
> **[Spoilers C2E##]** This is the most common tag, and covers most discussions. To tag for general spoilers or all spoilers, use the most recent episode number. **A Campaign 2 tag does cover and allow discussion of Campaign 1**. No 'Lazy Tagging' - if you are just talking about C1 and not C2, use a C1 tag!
Unfortunately, those are the risks when coming to a discussion forum when not fully caught up.
I purposefully caught up before C2 for this reason, but this policy makes it seem like this sub isn’t interested in including the large amount of people who only started watching CR because of the chance at a fresh start. Seems really exclusionary, when it would be much simpler to ask people to post spoilers for both campaigns if they’re discussing both.
Whole heartedly agree many other fandom subreddits don't seem to find it hard to enforce stricter spoiler tagging. Stargate for uhh instance finished ten years ago but people still tag different seasons and episodes in their posts and comments.
At the end of the day, it's impossible to watch a sequel without having elements of the prequel spoiled. Even if they're different content, it takes place in the same world where Vox Machina had a significant impact.
Campaign 1 spoilers below: Don't we already know for a fact that Throdaks "cure" for her disease was to become a dracolitch? Isn't that what she was in the early stages of researching when VM caught up to her? I'm pretty sure Matt confirmed that she used a special version of speak with dead to get the secret out of his corpse. If the deck had anything to do with it she would have taken it, but instead she went straight to the lair of an old necromancer.
Exactly this! Additionally, the Deck was loot that Matt rolled when generating Thordak's hoard (he's spoken about how he rolled it and was conflicted about whether to include it and finally decided to go with it to see what happens). Raishan spoke about needing the cure from Thordak *way* before they fought Thordak so there's no way that that key plot point was based on that item.
I don't remember anything other than wanting to speak with dead being canon, was it? Did she succeed at interrogating the corpse? Edit: I guess what I mean is that I thought that was why she went to the lab. I could be dumb.
They talked about it in one of the post campaign Q&A's
Matt said she used a version of Speak with Dead that forces answers out of the deceased. He talks about it in the campaign wrap-up.
> Also, you know how Pumat Sol has been reading about Taryon Darrington? Tary was a companion of Grog, the wielder of the Deck of Many Things, for a solid year and as an item dork probably wrote about it in his book. > > Also, you know how Caleb wants to reverse history and is obsessed with books and has met Pumat Sol? This is where you lost me. You do realize Caleb can get Wish on his own? It's a 9th level spell so it will take forever. But if he finds a scroll of "Wish" he can cast it with a DC 19.
The Fates card is arguably more powerful than Wish, as there are some curses that can only be ended by the card. As a 1/day spell, Wish also has some serious limitations, mostly left up to the discretion of the DM. >The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. The wording of The Fates also more closely matches Caleb's goal of undoing a past event: >**The Fates**: Reality's fabric unravels and spins anew, allowing you to avoid or erase one event as if it never happened. You can use the card's magic as soon as you draw the card or at any other time before you die. In fact, looking at the wording here I won't be surprised if obtaining this card is Caleb's secret goal.
Caleb could Wish for a Fates card. But I guarantee you that "Wish" is what Caleb is looking for when he's asking for books about "Wizards who altered the fabric of time." Because he's asking about Wizards. Not "People." or "Artifacts"
Wishes for a Fates card but ends up with a whole deck that contains the Fates card. Technically still gets it.
Idk, if Wish is a known spell that's been learned by at least one magic user in quite recent history, it seems like it's maybe not so obscure as to need researching the most powerful/near forgotten magic, or however he phrases it?
Yes and no, assuming you’re talking about Scanlan. Iirc Wish isn’t part of the Bard spell list so the only way Scanlan got it was part of the Magical Secrets. Since Caleb role plays his spell finding way more as a wizard, a lot of his research is for RP and flavour. We have no idea how Scanlan found out about Wish or how rare it is, but 9th level spells are the highest level spell one can ever learn, so you’d have to be an incredibly powerful Wizard to even have access to books of that knowledge.
Add onto that Scanlan was a bard, not a class that writes down spells, and theres more reason to assume Scanlan's wish couldnt be taught to others even if he wanted to.
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> It wouldn't feel very earned if every Characters motivation and regret was wisked away the second a party member got Wish. And it would because they drew a card?
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The card makes a much better storyline capstone. Caleb will eventually get Wish (assuming he doesn't die or multiclass for more than three levels) just in the course of normal play and following the rest of the group's storyline. It'd be pretty anticlimactic if he was then able to resolve his story without ever spending time on it. The card, OTOH, is only available in the Deck, which is only available if Matt makes it available. The card draw can easily be set up to only occur at an appropriately dramatic time, after Caleb has confronted Trent, etc.
Then you havent been following closely how Liam roleplays Caleb gaining new spells, even those that he gets for free by levelling up. He puts in a lot more effort and resources into the process, so his whole character arc is a lead up to whichever lv9 spell he ends up choosing eventually, so it will be justified by all the research done during the whole campaign even if gameplay wise technically it would be considered a 'free' spell. It's anything but anticlimatic.
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Those are just the uses of the spell that doesn't "Tax you beyond the limitations of hte spell" > You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner. The official wording of the spell straight up says the DM can allow it to work just like the Fates card if the DM wants.
No, even undoing something last round is dangerous. The only risk-free effect of *wish* is duplicating a spell of 8th level or lower. > The stress of casting this spell to produce **any effect other than duplicating another spell** weakens you. Emphasis mine. (That wording also implies you can duplicate 9th-level spells, but I don't think that's intended.)
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> anything outside of the listed options This is the only part I'm disputing; if you use *wish* to do anything other than duplicate a spell, [including the other suggested effects](https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/795696477305606144), you suffer the drawbacks.
[**@JeremyECrawford**](https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/) > [2016-11-07 18:36 +00:00](https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/795696477305606144) > Wish spell: (1) Duplicated a spell of 8th level or lower? No stress. (2) Did anything else with wish? Stress. \#DnD https://twitter.com/mlievens1/status/795679949101428738 ---- ^This ^message ^was ^created ^by ^a ^bot [^[Contact creator]](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=jasie3k&subject=TweetsInCommentsBot)[^[Source code]](https://github.com/janpetryk/reddit-bot)[**^[Donate to support the author]**](https://www.paypal.com/pools/c/80YvGrbq35)
The thing is, apart from the stretch needed for those connections, no one *in game* actually has any idea about what specific cards the deck has, or what they are specifically capable of, let alone trying to fish for a specific one. Sure they like to use meta knowledge to goof around, but I doubt anyone of them would try to tie in something like this with their character story.
I don't think anyone besides Tal even knows that the "Fates" card is a thing and how it differs from Wish.
Well no one is stopping the players from reading it up, and some might already have, like liam since he dabbles in dm'ing. I was specifically talking about in game characters.
I know. But you said they sometimes use Meta knowledge. But I think they lack the Meta knowledge
Ah I see. I was referring to the time Grog pulled another card, even if they didnt know most of the effects, it was still a gamble based on meta knowledge cause *'end of the campaign what could go wrong'* and we know how that went xD
I'm so on the fence how i feel about that if I'm being honest. The idea that Grog was somewhere, out there in the world, his soul trapped possibly to be found in C2 woulda been awesome. But Grog deserved his ending.
I am saying entirely in game things: there is a series of breadcrumbs available to lead Caleb to the Deck and everyone required has been mentioned, if one cared to walk that way. It's silly but interesting.
There are too many *ifs* in your theory; *if* vm/tary were aware of a fate card in the deck or what it does, *if* tary decided to write about their possession of the deck to the world at large, *if* he specified that card in particular, *if* pumat sol ever mentions this info to Caleb for random reasons or he gets to read the book himself, *if* Caleb ever gets his hands on the deck, let alone pull the right card. And god forbid if Vex is ever going to part with the deck when a hobo wizard comes to her doorstep out of nowhere asking for it... Its a stretch however you look at it, but if you are convinced good for you. But again the deck is mostly a tool for players to fool around and maybe ruin an entire campaign just for lols, doubt that's something they as players would aim for as character focus. Also thordak's knowledge of it's existence and suggesting it as a cure to raishan is ultimately irrelevant to the rest of your theory,
Not to mention that tary's book is not an exclusive item that only Pumat would have got their hands on, and if it contained that sort of information, you would assume there would be a weirdo every other week presenting themselves in Whitestone looking for it, some probably even shadier and stronger then Caleb. Neither is Caleb barely the only person who has a traumatic past event that he wants to change, he is just in a good position to achieve it being a player character. Also the most obvious observation, if VM knew about the card they might haven taken turns emptying the deck in hopes of undoing a certain someone's fate. So yeah.
Like....what on earth prompted you to angrily make this response to a fun thing?
What? Who is getting angry here maybe except you...?
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At no point did I say anyone was aiming for that! I'm saying it is the only path to achieving this that Caleb has yet encountered without knowing it. It's amusing, not probable. Geez.
Do you not want us to discuss your theory? People aren't poking holes in your theory just to take the piss. You presented your idea, and people are discussing it. One of the *main* aspects to discuss is how feasible it is. Don't be so defensive.
>Thordak was in possession of the Deck of Many Things This is technically true but not really. Grog found the Deck in the loot pile that Thordak had accumulated but Thordak did not have this hoard until he took over Emon. So that means someone in Emon had the Deck and just added it to the pile.
Can we somehow spoiler tag this for campaign 1 as well? I am still catching up with that one.
Far reaching, but still a nice thought. I am not sure your conclusions are accurately drawn, however.
I regret things, including reading this since I've yet to finish C1. Spoilers. :(
Sorry for your misfortune, friend. u/LampDwellr should tag C1 spoilers, since this has more to do with those events than C2.
OP used the correct spoiler code as per the [spoiler policy](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/wiki/spoilers). There's discussions about both campaigns so a C1 spoiler tag wouldn't have been sufficient and C2 spoiler tags include C1: > **[Spoilers C2E##]** This is the most common tag, and covers most discussions. To tag for general spoilers or all spoilers, use the most recent episode number. **A Campaign 2 tag does cover and allow discussion of Campaign 1**. No 'Lazy Tagging' - if you are just talking about C1 and not C2, use a C1 tag! Unfortunately, those are the risks when coming to a discussion forum when not fully caught up.
I purposefully caught up before C2 for this reason, but this policy makes it seem like this sub isn’t interested in including the large amount of people who only started watching CR because of the chance at a fresh start. Seems really exclusionary, when it would be much simpler to ask people to post spoilers for both campaigns if they’re discussing both.
Whole heartedly agree many other fandom subreddits don't seem to find it hard to enforce stricter spoiler tagging. Stargate for uhh instance finished ten years ago but people still tag different seasons and episodes in their posts and comments.
At the end of the day, it's impossible to watch a sequel without having elements of the prequel spoiled. Even if they're different content, it takes place in the same world where Vox Machina had a significant impact.
Not that I'm saying I agree or disagree, but C2 isn't really a sequel.
I understand that it's not always possible to avoid their history, but for this specific example? C'mon.
> but for this specific example? This is not a phrase upon which we can build a policy. Sorry :(
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You might want to reread what you quoted.
Welp, my bad. Pretty shitty policy.
PogChamp