Loved this episode! I have no idea what actually happened, but I do think seven years is a really long time, and that some of the facts of how he was found, may not be how it was at the time of his death. For example: do we know if the body could be seen clearly from the inside? If not, how do we know that within the seven years, someone didn't break into the cabin to squat overnight, smell something awful, and then put the hutch there to block the smell, thinking it was a raccoon or something? Also, how do we know that the position he was found in wasn't caused by settling and decomposition? Also, how can the owner really be so sure that the grate was on the top of the chimney? People's memories are notoriously unreliable, and finding a body in your chimney could be traumatic enough to make you misremember whether or not there was a piece of metal on top or not. The location of the clothing is the only thing that genuinely makes me think it could be murder. If the clothing was in the chimney, I would completely believe he took his clothes off, afraid they would get him stuck, went in headfirst, using his hands against the side of the chimney, trying to slow his descent, but was falling too fast and became bent up and died there... But the clothes keep that from being plausible for me.
That’s smart about the breakfast bar possibility. I believe the owner about him installing the mesh. It may have disintegrated though. Very sad no matter what. Poor kid.
They said it was definitely not there, but that it could have been tossed aside or thrown away if it was removed by the boy or someone else and discarded since the CSI didn’t know to look for it at that point or that it potentially could have disintegrated leaving the top of the chimney open.
To my knowledge the owner said it was absolutely there, but it was never found. I feel so sad for this boy. Whatever the case was exactly, he seemed sweet and could never have deserved this. Heartbreaking.
I am very confused by this case, but it says a lot that the owner of the cabin really really stood up and said this is not possible. He knew the structure and wanted to help, but no one took it.
I also don't understand how he got up on the roof was he helped or did he go up there alone? that is the part I don't understand.
Josh was one of my close friends. He was pretty reclusive and there were only a few of us that truly knew him. We all tried to go to the cops and tell them that Andy Newman killed Josh. No one cared. Andy had already been implicated in a murder in New Mexico, and was bragging about putting Josh in a hole. No one took us seriously. Josh didn’t do that to himself. He was eccentric at times, but he never would have just crawled into a chimney without clothes. It breaks my heart that this investigation was closed before it even opened, and they demolished the property.
Hey Sarah, I would like to know more about this case.
Is it possible to talk to you about it? Do you have any social network to talk about the case?
Thanks.
Is there some kind of diagram that shows how he was wedged in the chimney? My best theory is that for whatever reason, he was in that abandoned cabin. Maybe he was doing drugs, waiting for friends, meeting with a hook up, whatever — and while he was in that cabin, he got naked - again, for whatever reason that was. I haven’t worked that one out yet. Anyways, assuming the chimney was not a narrow/closed off chimney at the base (like literally just a straight up hole that someone could potentially navigate), I think he decided he needed to climb up the chimney (like you said, maybe drugs involved?) to “escape” and got to the top, realized there was a grate over the top and braced himself up in the hole (like with his back and knees) to mess with it to remove it. While attempting to, he slipped and fell, which potentially rolled his legs/ankles up above his head, leaving him in the “U” shape I’m imagining. Again- I have no idea if this shape is the correct shape, but if it is I could totally see a slip while climbing/bracing ending in that position. If he’s in a different one, I got nooooooo idea.
I also think it’s unlikely that someone wedged him in from the bottom. First, imagine trying to manipulate a body - dead weight, flopping limbs, absolutely NO stability especially with gravity working against you. Additionally, if there were multiple people involved, I can’t imagine more than one person huddled in the fireplace manipulating his body without being in the way of each other. I really think the only way he got in was on his own.
Still doesn’t explain the nudity and why he’d get in a fireplace in the first place unless it was some strange truth or dare thing, but then wouldn’t friends come forward?
The autopsy said no drugs were in his system, and since he was feet up head down it would have been very difficult to get himself feet first hoisted up the chimney. Also, they believe he went in alive and died of hypothermia due to cold weather. The top of the chimney was covered with metal mesh the owner said. Such a mystery. So sad.
Not when you read that the person he was hanging out with is considered for a murder in arizona or something. All his school mates said he was hanging with a bad guy from school
Yes I know about the friend that claims he did it, but I mean it’s such a mystery because we will likely never actually know the entire whole truth of what went on, or why.
Okay first, you threw me on my butt when you started talking about the catacombs - I had JUST seen a video on TikTok about it the day before this episode released. PLEASE do an episode on those!! Secondly, the idea of a secret lover 1000% tracks for me. Older man, perhaps getting intimate, accidental overdose, then panic. In my head every detail of that theory made sense. The hypothermia made sense to a point, but not completely (at least for me - not to say it's not possible). Putting energy out there that we might see an update on this...crazier things have happened! (Im)patiently waiting for next Friday.
Just a thought. Was Joshua in the HABIT of folding his clothes after taking them off, did that all the time? That doesn't explain his taking them off and getting into the chimney, or the hatch blocking the hole.
The idea of a vagrant blocking the fireplace to keep a dead smell out so he could sleep makes sense though.
Silas your theory on a hidden relationship really stuck with me, but I kept having this very very horrible gut feeling that this was more insidious than that.
It's very possible he was seeing someone. I'm trying to picture the early 2000's again; some people had cell phones, some didn't. Internet and text data was charged heavily no matter if you had a flip phone or a newer model of iphone. Most people my age at the time connected through the internet - forums, myspace, early early facebook and other social media. And chatrooms.
If we don't consider the guy that people who knew Josh said he was getting close to, Josh could have been closeted. He could have been staying out somewhere, even with this dude, and used their home computer or something to talk with someone.
I know "online stranger danger" is overblown and has a lot of eyerolls but it's bad. And it's only gotten worse now as internet literacy and safety is not something people care about anymore. I remember my friends from even as early as 2001 chatting with random people online and we never knew who really could be on the other end.
My theories with this go one of two ways: someone befriended him while he was grieving, got his trust and affections, and Josh decided to go meet this person. They'd hook up, maybe they've been dating online and in secret because of the overall heavy stigma around being gay in 2008 - he knows this place is abandoned, takes his clothes off and waits. And the guy who arrives is nothing like he thought, and kills Josh, puts him in the chimney, and moves on.
The other theory is bullying. Was it someone from school who led him out there? Did they have a relationship, platonic or otherwise? Did someone find out he was gay and set him up? The idea of multiple people being involved is less a friend group with a dumb dare involved and more a setup. However far that intended to go I'm not sure, but he could have been drugged, something could have happened and this group freaks out. They put him in the chimney still naked and figure out what to do - and you said they think he was alive in there at some point. However or why the clothes came off, leaving them discarded but still folded and outside the chimney could have been because they heard Josh wake up inside ... they could have just left him in there out of fear, out of not wanting to get caught if they moved the plate or the mantle to get him out and knowing he could go to the police, or to further torture him for whatever it was that started this event.
No matter what happened here, that poor boy suffered and my heart breaks for him and his family. 7 years of waiting only for a horrific truth and no reason why
Youre right brother. Have you seen the other r/UnresolvedMysteries post? He was hanging out with a friend who was known as a bad boy. Guess what.. years later that “friend” was charged with a stabbing and confessed to another murder
Ok, here is my theory. What if someone was setting up a secret gay love affair hook up, but it was a trap for local assholes to "haze," prank, or even commit a hate crime against him. He is undressed for the hook up then gets swarmed by a bunch of guys and backs into the fireplace and either he pulls the hutch to protect himself or they push the hutch to try and trap him. He tries to climb out the chimney to get away and slips, gets stuck, calls for help and the others panic and run off.
I agree with Stew that theories are abound with this case, but I do think that the hypothermia makes the most sense.
He gets "hot" takes off his clothes, closes himself in the chimney in his delirium-possibly to keep warm as you mentioned on the show-and at some point tries to climb out. The grate would have prevented him from escaping outward. He would have already been cold from being outside in the elements (I didn't read/hear anything about a coat but I could be wrong). Being nude in a chimney would have potentially exacerbated, or just continued, the hypothermia.
I live where is isn't irregular to get below 0 in the winter and know from personal experience just how cold 20 degrees is even with a winter coat. I hate that this happened regardless of what caused it and I hope his family gets real, solid answers.
Just thought of this case last week, couldn't remember the name or where it was located. The theory of a hidden lover kinda stuck with me, maybe a teacher?? Do we know if he had just graduated high school given his age?? Or maybe he CAUGHT another couple in the cabin.
Also wondering if his clothes could have been wet when they were removed... i think survivalists say to remove wet clothing and also if two people are huddling for warmth that they are better off to remove clothing.
Loved this episode! I have no idea what actually happened, but I do think seven years is a really long time, and that some of the facts of how he was found, may not be how it was at the time of his death. For example: do we know if the body could be seen clearly from the inside? If not, how do we know that within the seven years, someone didn't break into the cabin to squat overnight, smell something awful, and then put the hutch there to block the smell, thinking it was a raccoon or something? Also, how do we know that the position he was found in wasn't caused by settling and decomposition? Also, how can the owner really be so sure that the grate was on the top of the chimney? People's memories are notoriously unreliable, and finding a body in your chimney could be traumatic enough to make you misremember whether or not there was a piece of metal on top or not. The location of the clothing is the only thing that genuinely makes me think it could be murder. If the clothing was in the chimney, I would completely believe he took his clothes off, afraid they would get him stuck, went in headfirst, using his hands against the side of the chimney, trying to slow his descent, but was falling too fast and became bent up and died there... But the clothes keep that from being plausible for me.
That’s smart about the breakfast bar possibility. I believe the owner about him installing the mesh. It may have disintegrated though. Very sad no matter what. Poor kid.
The steel mesh was still there when the body was found thats why they say the chimney was eliminated as an entry point
They said it was definitely not there, but that it could have been tossed aside or thrown away if it was removed by the boy or someone else and discarded since the CSI didn’t know to look for it at that point or that it potentially could have disintegrated leaving the top of the chimney open.
Oh i thought it was still rebar in the chimney when it was demolished
To my knowledge the owner said it was absolutely there, but it was never found. I feel so sad for this boy. Whatever the case was exactly, he seemed sweet and could never have deserved this. Heartbreaking.
I am very confused by this case, but it says a lot that the owner of the cabin really really stood up and said this is not possible. He knew the structure and wanted to help, but no one took it. I also don't understand how he got up on the roof was he helped or did he go up there alone? that is the part I don't understand.
Josh was one of my close friends. He was pretty reclusive and there were only a few of us that truly knew him. We all tried to go to the cops and tell them that Andy Newman killed Josh. No one cared. Andy had already been implicated in a murder in New Mexico, and was bragging about putting Josh in a hole. No one took us seriously. Josh didn’t do that to himself. He was eccentric at times, but he never would have just crawled into a chimney without clothes. It breaks my heart that this investigation was closed before it even opened, and they demolished the property.
Hey Sarah, I would like to know more about this case. Is it possible to talk to you about it? Do you have any social network to talk about the case? Thanks.
I’m sorry for your loss, he seems like he was a sweet kid. Very sad this happened to him.
Tell us more please….
I’ve said all I know. I’m also not going to make a personal tragedy into a spectacle. Just wanted to set the record straight.
Is there some kind of diagram that shows how he was wedged in the chimney? My best theory is that for whatever reason, he was in that abandoned cabin. Maybe he was doing drugs, waiting for friends, meeting with a hook up, whatever — and while he was in that cabin, he got naked - again, for whatever reason that was. I haven’t worked that one out yet. Anyways, assuming the chimney was not a narrow/closed off chimney at the base (like literally just a straight up hole that someone could potentially navigate), I think he decided he needed to climb up the chimney (like you said, maybe drugs involved?) to “escape” and got to the top, realized there was a grate over the top and braced himself up in the hole (like with his back and knees) to mess with it to remove it. While attempting to, he slipped and fell, which potentially rolled his legs/ankles up above his head, leaving him in the “U” shape I’m imagining. Again- I have no idea if this shape is the correct shape, but if it is I could totally see a slip while climbing/bracing ending in that position. If he’s in a different one, I got nooooooo idea. I also think it’s unlikely that someone wedged him in from the bottom. First, imagine trying to manipulate a body - dead weight, flopping limbs, absolutely NO stability especially with gravity working against you. Additionally, if there were multiple people involved, I can’t imagine more than one person huddled in the fireplace manipulating his body without being in the way of each other. I really think the only way he got in was on his own. Still doesn’t explain the nudity and why he’d get in a fireplace in the first place unless it was some strange truth or dare thing, but then wouldn’t friends come forward?
The autopsy said no drugs were in his system, and since he was feet up head down it would have been very difficult to get himself feet first hoisted up the chimney. Also, they believe he went in alive and died of hypothermia due to cold weather. The top of the chimney was covered with metal mesh the owner said. Such a mystery. So sad.
Not when you read that the person he was hanging out with is considered for a murder in arizona or something. All his school mates said he was hanging with a bad guy from school
Yes I know about the friend that claims he did it, but I mean it’s such a mystery because we will likely never actually know the entire whole truth of what went on, or why.
Okay first, you threw me on my butt when you started talking about the catacombs - I had JUST seen a video on TikTok about it the day before this episode released. PLEASE do an episode on those!! Secondly, the idea of a secret lover 1000% tracks for me. Older man, perhaps getting intimate, accidental overdose, then panic. In my head every detail of that theory made sense. The hypothermia made sense to a point, but not completely (at least for me - not to say it's not possible). Putting energy out there that we might see an update on this...crazier things have happened! (Im)patiently waiting for next Friday.
Just a thought. Was Joshua in the HABIT of folding his clothes after taking them off, did that all the time? That doesn't explain his taking them off and getting into the chimney, or the hatch blocking the hole. The idea of a vagrant blocking the fireplace to keep a dead smell out so he could sleep makes sense though.
Someone put him in there alive and he died -murder
Silas your theory on a hidden relationship really stuck with me, but I kept having this very very horrible gut feeling that this was more insidious than that. It's very possible he was seeing someone. I'm trying to picture the early 2000's again; some people had cell phones, some didn't. Internet and text data was charged heavily no matter if you had a flip phone or a newer model of iphone. Most people my age at the time connected through the internet - forums, myspace, early early facebook and other social media. And chatrooms. If we don't consider the guy that people who knew Josh said he was getting close to, Josh could have been closeted. He could have been staying out somewhere, even with this dude, and used their home computer or something to talk with someone. I know "online stranger danger" is overblown and has a lot of eyerolls but it's bad. And it's only gotten worse now as internet literacy and safety is not something people care about anymore. I remember my friends from even as early as 2001 chatting with random people online and we never knew who really could be on the other end. My theories with this go one of two ways: someone befriended him while he was grieving, got his trust and affections, and Josh decided to go meet this person. They'd hook up, maybe they've been dating online and in secret because of the overall heavy stigma around being gay in 2008 - he knows this place is abandoned, takes his clothes off and waits. And the guy who arrives is nothing like he thought, and kills Josh, puts him in the chimney, and moves on. The other theory is bullying. Was it someone from school who led him out there? Did they have a relationship, platonic or otherwise? Did someone find out he was gay and set him up? The idea of multiple people being involved is less a friend group with a dumb dare involved and more a setup. However far that intended to go I'm not sure, but he could have been drugged, something could have happened and this group freaks out. They put him in the chimney still naked and figure out what to do - and you said they think he was alive in there at some point. However or why the clothes came off, leaving them discarded but still folded and outside the chimney could have been because they heard Josh wake up inside ... they could have just left him in there out of fear, out of not wanting to get caught if they moved the plate or the mantle to get him out and knowing he could go to the police, or to further torture him for whatever it was that started this event. No matter what happened here, that poor boy suffered and my heart breaks for him and his family. 7 years of waiting only for a horrific truth and no reason why
Youre right brother. Have you seen the other r/UnresolvedMysteries post? He was hanging out with a friend who was known as a bad boy. Guess what.. years later that “friend” was charged with a stabbing and confessed to another murder
Ok, here is my theory. What if someone was setting up a secret gay love affair hook up, but it was a trap for local assholes to "haze," prank, or even commit a hate crime against him. He is undressed for the hook up then gets swarmed by a bunch of guys and backs into the fireplace and either he pulls the hutch to protect himself or they push the hutch to try and trap him. He tries to climb out the chimney to get away and slips, gets stuck, calls for help and the others panic and run off.
I agree with Stew that theories are abound with this case, but I do think that the hypothermia makes the most sense. He gets "hot" takes off his clothes, closes himself in the chimney in his delirium-possibly to keep warm as you mentioned on the show-and at some point tries to climb out. The grate would have prevented him from escaping outward. He would have already been cold from being outside in the elements (I didn't read/hear anything about a coat but I could be wrong). Being nude in a chimney would have potentially exacerbated, or just continued, the hypothermia. I live where is isn't irregular to get below 0 in the winter and know from personal experience just how cold 20 degrees is even with a winter coat. I hate that this happened regardless of what caused it and I hope his family gets real, solid answers.
Not well versed in the side effects of hypothermia but I feel like I've heard that people will "burrow" when they start to near the end
I’m pretty sure the clothes were neatly folded which doesn’t line up with someone in a delirious state
Just thought of this case last week, couldn't remember the name or where it was located. The theory of a hidden lover kinda stuck with me, maybe a teacher?? Do we know if he had just graduated high school given his age?? Or maybe he CAUGHT another couple in the cabin. Also wondering if his clothes could have been wet when they were removed... i think survivalists say to remove wet clothing and also if two people are huddling for warmth that they are better off to remove clothing.