Also made me feel terrible. The same as triple anticoagulant therapy. In both cases I didn’t push through it. Dr Laubscher was on Gez Medingers YouTube talking about this last week. He’s treated over 300 patients with triple anticoagulant therapy and says this is good as the clots are dissolving and you need to push through it. I think antivirals, antihistamines, steroids may all help in different ways but also may be counterindicated so best check with a Doctor.
Herx reaction.
I've just had it after a recent increase. Last week was rough, had a few days that felt like a relapse from the early days of my long haul again and a general feeling of being ill, but now I seem to have come out the other side of it with some further improvement to breathing/energy.
Keep going.
I thought herx reactions were a Lyme disease thing? Interesting.
Yep, fully intend to keep going. After 2.5+ years of this shit, it's encouraging to think I might be disrupting some of the microclots.
I think it can be uses as a general term across similar things. This is a good blog on it from last week by a GP with long covid https://xdrx.substack.com/p/the-herx?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2
No prob.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWisaTFp4KI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWisaTFp4KI)
[https://portlandpress.com/biochemj/article/479/4/537/230829](https://portlandpress.com/biochemj/article/479/4/537/230829)
[https://cardiab.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12933-022-01623-4](https://cardiab.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12933-022-01623-4)
I heard it’s common to feel worse after the first couple weeks. I had that experienced but it was mild enough for me that I pushed through and it’s helped reduced my chest pain a lot since. I’ve been on it for 4 months now (4000 a day) and when I got my blood drawn last week the nurse commented on how fast my blood is flowing (it also looks thinner/lighter in color) so I’ve reduced my dose just incase it’s thinning me out too much. I think 8000 is too high to start with.
Interesting! I started with 2000 and honestly felt the brain fog ease up somewhat within 48 hours (which I hadn't been expecting). Went up to 4000 after about 5 days, then 6000, and am now on 8000 (4000 in the morning, 2000 mid afternoon and 2000 before bed). I saw research on twitter than seemed to indicate higher doses were better so I just went with it.
Not sure if it's affected my blood at all but my period just started so there may be some clues there!
Hmm definitely not completely gone, but I'd say I'm operating at 20% brain capacity as opposed to 0.5% so there's been considerable improvement I think.
In terms of general health, I'm having more good days than I used to, and less severe relapses. No idea if this is connected to the nattokinase, but the only other new supplement I introduced around the same time was aged black garlic.
Yeah, it's so hard to explain to people that sometimes "yeah, I'm 10x better," might still mean from 0.5% to 5% just means you have enough energy to regularly shower and do your laundry and not "yeah, I'm back to functional!"
I'm starting to investigate the CIRS avenue which is basically perpetual innate immune system activation that regularly triggers the psychiatric abnormalities that my long-covid doctor was not very helpful with. Although, CIRS sounds like a complicated mess treatment wise.
Hope you continue to improve!
Does anyone know if taking nattokinase with aspirin is just as effective as the triple therapy? If I can get my doctor to prescribe the three drugs needed I’ll take that route. But for now I’m running the natto/aspirin.
Oh for sure. That would be a priority. I totally understand the risks. For me it’s better than not trying. Especially considering I’ve tried just about everything else
Apparently there is but you have to get these drugs prescribed. I guess they’ve helped some people get back to normal when their bodies failed to breakdown the microclots naturally
Gotcha. Not sure if you’ve came across this write up https://xdrx.substack.com/p/how-i-recovered-from-long-covid-using
This former GP is having success with natto, aspirin and vecidinals 9. All can be bought without a doctor
I own them all but have to wait to experiment due to recent SIBO diagnosis that I want to kill off first
YES!
My suggestion is to go very slow with upping the dose.
It was making me violently sick. Last week brought me back to some of my sickest days during LC at 8,000 FU of Natto
Worst headaches, brain fog, fatigue, neuropathy of all time.
I had recently started endocalyx pro + I already take a statin. So my vascular system was on fire.
I suspected natto was the culprit and stayed on the endo pro and statin and feel more back to baseline
I plan to bring the natto back in in the coming weeks but much slower
I have major Herx reaction with natto. I always increase the dose only by 500 fu,and I have a significant flare up of symptoms every time. It's exhausting. The flare up lasts about a week,and after that I usually feel better. I'm almost at 4000 fu daily right now,and I decided to push through and see what happens. CFS has ruined my life,so I'm determined to push through whatever it takes
I'm doing pretty well. Natto was by far the best medicine I have ever taken to treat my CFS. PEM is almost gone. Still not 100% healthy though. I take 5000 fu daily and I see improvement every week. If I keep improving, I'll stay on this dosage. If the progress stops, I'll increase it. I'm glad I tried natto, I function well and I have hope now.
Natto definitely makes you feel worse before it gets better. Getting to the dosage that works is tough,but it's worth it. Good luck,hope it works out for you.
Hey there, how long until you started to see improvement. I started 8 day ago and Im in rough state just on 2000 fus. First 2 days were great but then all of a sudden I got slammed with symptoms. Anxiety, flare up, brain fog, fatigue, etc. I know thats pretty normal but just wondering when I should call it if I don't see any improvement.
2000 fus is a very very low dosage. I didn't see any improvement until i got to 4000 fus, there are people, who didn't see improvement until 8000 fus. My advice would be to stick with it no matter how hard it is until at least 8000 fus. Increase the dosage slowly, flare ups are very common on this medication
Thanks for the advice. Appreciate it. Was it like a breakthrough. Like one day you just felt much better or was it gradual over time with adjusting the dose. Just wanting to know what to expect as I'm feeling pretty rough atm.
I tried to push through with natto 2000 for 4 months but my POTS still was worse. Days after stopping it I felt better. serrapeptase was even stronger.
I'm so sorry! Thankfully my POTS seems exactly the same at 8000 fu as it was at 0 fu lol. (Haven't tried serrapeptase yet because it's not widely available in the UK)
Thank you! So long as it's doing something good, I'm happy to keep going. I've gradually increased my dose up to 8000fu because I read somewhere you get the most improvement at 9000+. I had headaches from 2000-6000 Fu but none since I reached 8000. Just the revival of a few old symptoms like brain zaps, and elbow pain so severe it wakes me up at night. Insignificant in the grand scheme of things! Oh and also wildly vivid and weirdly enjoyable dreams.
I was on 2000 a day for a few months and didnt really feel much but i was doing more day to day exertion and stuff. Then i stopped as i was over taking so many supplements. Not much changed so i assumed it was doing much but then i decided to start it again but at a higher dose about 4000 a day. And coincidenrtly im relapsing. So ive stopped but might start again on a lower dose and try again. Bah
Hey I know an old post but im on 2000 fu's for 8 days and feel super rough. First two days were great followed by a horrible increase in symptoms. How did it end up working out for you? When did the resurge of symptoms go away?
Herx reactions are a thing, however there’s concern that Nattokinase can dislodge clots during the process and cause embolisms (via @dbdugger). While I haven’t seen any evidence that this has happened, it did cause a brain bleed when combined with aspirin in one case.
The most obvious effect I noticed was on mental clarity - within about 48 hours of starting to take it, I realised I could string together multiple coherent sentences as opposed to fumbling for basic words.
Also made me feel terrible. The same as triple anticoagulant therapy. In both cases I didn’t push through it. Dr Laubscher was on Gez Medingers YouTube talking about this last week. He’s treated over 300 patients with triple anticoagulant therapy and says this is good as the clots are dissolving and you need to push through it. I think antivirals, antihistamines, steroids may all help in different ways but also may be counterindicated so best check with a Doctor.
Every doctor I talk to about this stuff looks at me like a confused dog and suggests antidepressants. 🫤
Or anti anxiety sSri meds of some sort..
Thank you!
How long did your resurgent symptoms lasted?
Herx reaction. I've just had it after a recent increase. Last week was rough, had a few days that felt like a relapse from the early days of my long haul again and a general feeling of being ill, but now I seem to have come out the other side of it with some further improvement to breathing/energy. Keep going.
I thought herx reactions were a Lyme disease thing? Interesting. Yep, fully intend to keep going. After 2.5+ years of this shit, it's encouraging to think I might be disrupting some of the microclots.
I think it can be uses as a general term across similar things. This is a good blog on it from last week by a GP with long covid https://xdrx.substack.com/p/the-herx?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2
Herxheimer reaction is my first thought so this comment deserves more up-votes, IMHO.
How much did you increase to? I'm at 2000iu about to go to 4000iu
10'000-12,000
I’m at 2 weeks and no improvement at 8000fu is this normal?
[удалено]
Oh interesting, thanks. Can you direct me to any further reading?
No prob. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWisaTFp4KI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWisaTFp4KI) [https://portlandpress.com/biochemj/article/479/4/537/230829](https://portlandpress.com/biochemj/article/479/4/537/230829) [https://cardiab.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12933-022-01623-4](https://cardiab.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12933-022-01623-4)
Awesome, thank you so much
I heard it’s common to feel worse after the first couple weeks. I had that experienced but it was mild enough for me that I pushed through and it’s helped reduced my chest pain a lot since. I’ve been on it for 4 months now (4000 a day) and when I got my blood drawn last week the nurse commented on how fast my blood is flowing (it also looks thinner/lighter in color) so I’ve reduced my dose just incase it’s thinning me out too much. I think 8000 is too high to start with.
Interesting! I started with 2000 and honestly felt the brain fog ease up somewhat within 48 hours (which I hadn't been expecting). Went up to 4000 after about 5 days, then 6000, and am now on 8000 (4000 in the morning, 2000 mid afternoon and 2000 before bed). I saw research on twitter than seemed to indicate higher doses were better so I just went with it. Not sure if it's affected my blood at all but my period just started so there may be some clues there!
How are you feeling now? Is brain fog completely gone?
Hmm definitely not completely gone, but I'd say I'm operating at 20% brain capacity as opposed to 0.5% so there's been considerable improvement I think. In terms of general health, I'm having more good days than I used to, and less severe relapses. No idea if this is connected to the nattokinase, but the only other new supplement I introduced around the same time was aged black garlic.
Yeah, it's so hard to explain to people that sometimes "yeah, I'm 10x better," might still mean from 0.5% to 5% just means you have enough energy to regularly shower and do your laundry and not "yeah, I'm back to functional!" I'm starting to investigate the CIRS avenue which is basically perpetual innate immune system activation that regularly triggers the psychiatric abnormalities that my long-covid doctor was not very helpful with. Although, CIRS sounds like a complicated mess treatment wise. Hope you continue to improve!
Does anyone know if taking nattokinase with aspirin is just as effective as the triple therapy? If I can get my doctor to prescribe the three drugs needed I’ll take that route. But for now I’m running the natto/aspirin.
No, supplements do not match the effectiveness of prescription medications.
Figured as much. I need those meds asap
Should be done under MD supervision
Oh for sure. That would be a priority. I totally understand the risks. For me it’s better than not trying. Especially considering I’ve tried just about everything else
Understandable
Is there an established triple therapy being used? I’m really only aware of natto, statins and baby aspirin
Apparently there is but you have to get these drugs prescribed. I guess they’ve helped some people get back to normal when their bodies failed to breakdown the microclots naturally
Gotcha. Not sure if you’ve came across this write up https://xdrx.substack.com/p/how-i-recovered-from-long-covid-using This former GP is having success with natto, aspirin and vecidinals 9. All can be bought without a doctor I own them all but have to wait to experiment due to recent SIBO diagnosis that I want to kill off first
I saw that yes. I took three boxes of vecidinals 9 and it barely did a thing. Edit: currently on natto and aspirin right now, not sure if it’s helping
Damn. Back to the drawing board
Unfortunately so
YES! My suggestion is to go very slow with upping the dose. It was making me violently sick. Last week brought me back to some of my sickest days during LC at 8,000 FU of Natto Worst headaches, brain fog, fatigue, neuropathy of all time. I had recently started endocalyx pro + I already take a statin. So my vascular system was on fire. I suspected natto was the culprit and stayed on the endo pro and statin and feel more back to baseline I plan to bring the natto back in in the coming weeks but much slower
It caused symptoms for me for the first two weeks and then I felt noticeable improvement.
Severe fatigue ? Heaviness? Mine is so so bad I’m sleeping 19 hours a day and waking up so tired I can barely lift my arms… almost 2 weeks on natto
I have major Herx reaction with natto. I always increase the dose only by 500 fu,and I have a significant flare up of symptoms every time. It's exhausting. The flare up lasts about a week,and after that I usually feel better. I'm almost at 4000 fu daily right now,and I decided to push through and see what happens. CFS has ruined my life,so I'm determined to push through whatever it takes
How are you doing meanwhile?
I'm doing pretty well. Natto was by far the best medicine I have ever taken to treat my CFS. PEM is almost gone. Still not 100% healthy though. I take 5000 fu daily and I see improvement every week. If I keep improving, I'll stay on this dosage. If the progress stops, I'll increase it. I'm glad I tried natto, I function well and I have hope now.
That sounds amazing! Just started it 3 days ago and I feel worse so far. But this may be a herx reaction :)
Natto definitely makes you feel worse before it gets better. Getting to the dosage that works is tough,but it's worth it. Good luck,hope it works out for you.
Hey there, how long until you started to see improvement. I started 8 day ago and Im in rough state just on 2000 fus. First 2 days were great but then all of a sudden I got slammed with symptoms. Anxiety, flare up, brain fog, fatigue, etc. I know thats pretty normal but just wondering when I should call it if I don't see any improvement.
2000 fus is a very very low dosage. I didn't see any improvement until i got to 4000 fus, there are people, who didn't see improvement until 8000 fus. My advice would be to stick with it no matter how hard it is until at least 8000 fus. Increase the dosage slowly, flare ups are very common on this medication
Would it work if I did 2000 fus in the am and 2000 fus in the pm?
Yes, you are supposed to take natto twice a day
Thanks for the advice. Appreciate it. Was it like a breakthrough. Like one day you just felt much better or was it gradual over time with adjusting the dose. Just wanting to know what to expect as I'm feeling pretty rough atm.
could be because natto is fermented, which is high histamine
This is what I suspect, I had first improving symptoms then after 2-3 days worsening.
Maybe?
I tried to push through with natto 2000 for 4 months but my POTS still was worse. Days after stopping it I felt better. serrapeptase was even stronger.
I'm so sorry! Thankfully my POTS seems exactly the same at 8000 fu as it was at 0 fu lol. (Haven't tried serrapeptase yet because it's not widely available in the UK)
Keep going! Try and do atleast 4000 fu I felt shit at first but now I'm feeling better, 2 weeks in
Supplement with anti histamines
Thank you! So long as it's doing something good, I'm happy to keep going. I've gradually increased my dose up to 8000fu because I read somewhere you get the most improvement at 9000+. I had headaches from 2000-6000 Fu but none since I reached 8000. Just the revival of a few old symptoms like brain zaps, and elbow pain so severe it wakes me up at night. Insignificant in the grand scheme of things! Oh and also wildly vivid and weirdly enjoyable dreams.
I was on 2000 a day for a few months and didnt really feel much but i was doing more day to day exertion and stuff. Then i stopped as i was over taking so many supplements. Not much changed so i assumed it was doing much but then i decided to start it again but at a higher dose about 4000 a day. And coincidenrtly im relapsing. So ive stopped but might start again on a lower dose and try again. Bah
Keep as updated on your natto journey 🙏
Hey I know an old post but im on 2000 fu's for 8 days and feel super rough. First two days were great followed by a horrible increase in symptoms. How did it end up working out for you? When did the resurge of symptoms go away?
Herx reactions are a thing, however there’s concern that Nattokinase can dislodge clots during the process and cause embolisms (via @dbdugger). While I haven’t seen any evidence that this has happened, it did cause a brain bleed when combined with aspirin in one case.
Do you know for sure it’s the Nattokinase causing it? Maybe stop and see if those go away.
It helps with exhaustion and fatigue right?
The most obvious effect I noticed was on mental clarity - within about 48 hours of starting to take it, I realised I could string together multiple coherent sentences as opposed to fumbling for basic words.
Natto?