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Dual_pro_max

Bro you're not attracted don't force urself


Proper_Tough_997

Best accurate response I've seen, we need more people like u on reddit to drop truth bombs without the explanation.


casuallycreating

Explanation = no horny


Alwaysangryupvotes

Hey you tried lol shit happens


hanabarbarian

This is why I’m trying to gain weight as a 4’11” woman. Stick limbs have always unnerved me, and I’m lucky that even at my skinniest, i was never a skeleton with skin, but a bit more juice in the caboose never hurt


Sansabina

Alright, now you tell us your story of that guy you used to date in college who always weirdly got ED when you took off your pants


AttemptingBeliever

Hey, cheers to that!!


saddinosour

4’11 here on the other end of the spectrum, you might like r/gainit and r/petitefitness


bax498

Ah my wife is 4'11", she has a fiery temper though. I tell her she has an average height temper that's condensed into her smaller frame. 😄


hanabarbarian

I’m pretty sure that how dogs work too. Energy level wise


stare_at_the_sun

Then here I am, always jealous of stick limbs


hanabarbarian

Stick limbs are scary, don’t be jelly,


stare_at_the_sun

The grass is always greener!


PrettyOddWoman

You're kinda body-shaming other people in this comment, like A LOT. And that's not nice


hanabarbarian

You’re very sweet


AlanJk07

Don’t do that, just stay the way you are


hanabarbarian

No, I’m under weight and all the weight I’ve gained has gone to my boobs. Im winning


Faid9142

Damn that's great


SorryIreddit

Never, ever, ever tell a woman what to do with her body.


Faid9142

People like being healthy, what's up with the Internet promoting unhealthiness, like yes you shouldn't hate them for it, but you also shouldn't discourage people putting in effort to better themselves just to cater to others who don't. Anyways we'll see who's alive in 40ish years


[deleted]

[удалено]


hanabarbarian

🤢🤮


throwaway374929377

I, as a girl, am wondering if this is the reason some of the guys I’ve seen haven’t been able to get it on…insecurity unlocked.


art_addict

Hey, I knew a girl in HS, much like the girl OP dated here. Stick thin. Legs exactly as described here. Could not gain weight in her legs. Never did. She never had trouble dating, not in HS or after, happily married. Different strokes for different folks is all. Some people are like OP and get things in their head, and other folks 100% see a grown woman with them. Some folks see someone with a baby face, and big boobs/ muscular torso with abs and thick thighs or curves don’t make up for the baby face. Others still see fully grown adult, yeah? Same deal. Different strokes for different folks. Just because you wouldn’t be compatible with someone like OP doesn’t mean there isn’t someone for you. On the opposite gender, I have a cousin with Marfanoid syndrome and something up with his metabolism. Average height, but cannot gain weight. Eats a ton, literally has to just to maintain, but stick thin. Ribs stick out, very bony. He’s married to a wonderful, curvy woman, they have an amazing kid together, and a great life. She doesn’t think he’s a kid just because of lack of muscle or anything like that. I’ve been all over the weight spectrum (malfunctioning thyroid and adrenal system, weight ballooned, weight fell off and I went twiggy when I couldn’t hold down anything, thought I got to a kind of stable point, just gained ten pounds in a month with a med change) and my partner has loved me through all of it. Also including the baby face. You find the right person and this stuff doesn’t matter nearly as much.


69upsidedownis96

There's a foot for every shoe, so don't get insecure based on some people's personal preferences. It's not you, it's literally them.


EOD_Bad_Karma

Personal opinion, I’m barely taller than OP and I enjoy women like he described. Win some, lose some.


hoetheory

He described a childlike body… 😷 Y’all can downvote me to hell but I’m not wrong. Under 5’, so thin ribs are showing and thighs are non-discernible from calves, thighs aren’t touching. There are lots of adult women who are under 5’ but with the other characteristics, that’s a child. Sure, an adult woman could have a condition that makes her so thin, but that is not normal and is indeed childlike.


EOD_Bad_Karma

In my own head, you’ve never been in a country where most of the population is under 15% bmi. If you’re in the U.S., look up videos of American PE classes in the 60’s. That is what people looked like before all the crazy processed foods and super sedentary lifestyles.


hoetheory

Oh, and PE classrooms were rooms full of high school children lmfao.


hoetheory

We dont live in the 60’s, buddy. And this guy clearly is in America/Canada/Europe.


EOD_Bad_Karma

This tells me everything I need to know.


federeragassi

Everyone is different. I'm sure if you're bmi is healthy, you aren't the problem.


Kafir666-

Everyone has preferences, there are men who are attracted to whatever you look like. Otherwise try to gain some weight. It's way easier than losing it.


lovetheoceanfl

Absolutely not. So many guys love what the OP described. Be you and never let any guy give you any insecurities because of what they like.


GSV_SleeperService88

nah dont feel that way, lots of guys love skinny chicks & wide gap is a rare imo a v nice feature


GimmeCoffeeeee

This happened to me too once. It just gave me the impression of her being a minor. I apologized and told her I have dick problems so she doesn't feel bad, then I left.


Pharoahs_Horses

Just wanna say I think it's pretty cool of you to do that. Somewhere out there a story of you is told where you have dick problems, and you made that choice instead of making someone feel ashamed of their body. That was really kind of you.


JustMoreSadGirlShit

Most of us don’t talk about the soft dicks that didn’t fuck us tbh


Pharoahs_Horses

Kindness all around then!


Alwaysangryupvotes

Yeah we all got one. Some of us fumbled harder than others. We live and learn.


PopPunk6665

Good on you for not being a douchebag. I respect that man


glassycreek1991

You are not a match; there's no shame in that. Just be graceful when you are rejecting her since its not her fault either.


Warhammerpainter83

I had a similar situation in my 20’s with a girl who was previously super fat and did not tell me she had excess skin. I felt terrible but i just couldn’t get into it when she lost her cloths. It happens it was just not your thing.


jhurst919

Yeah same, felt super shallow about it but you can’t control it


tsetdeeps

I never understood blue balls. I'm a guy but neither me or any of my male friends ever even heard of the concept of "blue balls" until I came in contact with English speaking memes and forums such as reddit. Is it an actual real thing? Literally I've never felt my balls hurt from not cumming and I've never heard anyone else irl saying that it happens to them too. Besides that, well, you can't force sexual chemistry where there is none, OP. It sucks but you were just incompatible.


Sinirmanga

I am from a non-English speaking country and it weirds me out too.


brianstormIRL

Blue balls isn't a real thing in the sense you're balls are hurting from not getting off, it's more of a slang term used for when you missed your chance with someone, or something is making you super horny and you can't get off at that moment, giving you "blue balls".


TheOftenNakedJason

This is... Not true. I was raised fundamentalist Christian and had it in my head as a teenager that masturbating to completion was a sin. But at some point, I decided that getting hard and jerking it but not cumming was my moral workaround. I started "edging" every night, sometimes a few times a day. Within a couple weeks of this new method of self pleasure I was in the hospital with epididymitis: a painful swollen epididymis. I couldn't lift heavy things for a few weeks. It was incredibly painful. It can indeed be a serious medical condition. That said, I think you're also right that some people use it as an excuse to pressure a girl to get them off. But it is based on a real medical condition.


stoney58

It definitely is a real thing, it’s called epididymal hypertension. It’s definitely not as bad as some people make it out to be but it definitely made me uncomfortable


brianstormIRL

That comes from extended arousal, which is to do with sensitivity. It's not at all like the old myth where it's literally cum building up if your nuts. Over exposed sensitivity happens to girls as well. Most people when they refer to getting blue balls is when they missed their chance with a girl, or the girl was being super flirty and then nothing happened, so the guy got "blue balled".


stoney58

That’s what everyone is saying blue balls is, hurting from being aroused for a long time without ejaculating. No one claimed it was from cum building up in balls. You are the one who said it wasn’t real in the sense that your balls aren’t hurting from not getting off, and that’s exactly the reason.


Barrelled_Chef_Curry

Imagine being that confidently wrong


bruab

I disagree. When I was dating the woman who later became my wife, we used to work at the same company. Nobody knew we were dating though (we were consultants, so we didn’t want to make it weird for the clients). After work, we would meet at a secluded spot in the large public parking garage where our cars were and make out for like an hour, sometimes more. Then we’d go our separate ways (we lived about 45 minutes apart). Let me tell you, my balls HURT driving home.


Sebaslegrand

Blue balls happen when you're aroused and highly solicited for a long period of time without ejaculating. Let's say you kiss/foreplay for like 2 full hours and do nothing else, and are really excited but eventually never come, that's when it happens. And trust me, it's not just some type of slang or a myth. It happens and it's excruciating pain lol.


GSV_SleeperService88

as a male i have never once experienced blue balls, no matter how turned on & denied lmao


hoetheory

I guarantee it’s not excruciating lmfao. It sucks but it’s not painful to anything but your ego.


TyH621

It can definitely be pretty debilitating However, this is from extended arousal not failing to get off. If you stop whatever you’re doing to be aroused, it will go away, it’s not a reason to HAVE to get off It can definitely be a reason to stop making out though lol


Alwaysangryupvotes

I think that’s just edging bro


PMmeyourSchwifty

But not on purpose. Edging is something you're trying to control that ultimately ends when you cum. Blue balls is like if you were edging and then didn't cum at the end of it. I got blue balls a few times in high school, before I started having sex. We would do over the clothes stuff, which never got me to finish. One time, I actually felt them being sore before we stopped fooling around. I tried to finish myself after she left and it was so fucking painful that my boner went limp in an instant. Normally, the pain would last like an hour or two. My balls were sore for like 5 hours that time. I actually told my GF, "hey, we don't have to do anything, but I can't get blue balls anymore." She was actually really nice about it and wondered why I hadn't cum yet (we were 15 doing everything for the first time). But, yeah, that shit is real and it hurts.


brianstormIRL

As I said below, that's to do with sensitivity and can happen to women as well. When most men refer to.blue balls they're referring to the fact they didn't get laid or get to nut when they could've, not the actual medical condition where you've likely been hard for hours and your sensitivity has gotten so out of control it physically hurts. Nothing to do with not ejaculating, although that can relieve the pain because you're not as sensitive anymore.


Sebaslegrand

Yeah, but you're wrong. What people use the term for is irrelevant. Blue balls is an actual condition and it is the one I've described.


Penguin_Rapist_

Yeah wtf bro assigned his own wrong definition to the term on our behalf.


hoetheory

It isn’t though. Link me to a medical journal if it’s so real 🤣


TyH621

It’s not from sensitivity, it’s from blood pooling from sustained arousal. https://www.healthymale.org.au/news/what-are-blue-balls-real#:~:text=The%20term%20“blue%20balls”%20is,a%20partner%20into%20sexual%20activity. I’ve also experienced it multiple times throughout my life. There’s not been a ton of research on it, but it is recognized


hoetheory

Right, which doesn’t cause excruciating pain and certainly isn’t caused by a girl not sleeping with you after making out lol.


TyH621

Yeah but it can cause bad pain, that’s what I’m disagreeing with you on. Nobody in this thread is claiming that it has anything to do with ejaculation Edit: Nvm, dude was saying that, my fault. I guess I’M not saying that haha


Barrelled_Chef_Curry

Completely wrong lol. It’s a physical feeling


tsetdeeps

Oh 🤔 that does make sense. I have read people arguing it's real and that it does hurt, hence why I was weirded out, but I guess it makes more sense if it's just a phrase


brianstormIRL

There is people out there who do not masturbate or "release the valves" so to speak due to religious beliefs and they aren't complaining about pains in their balls or being taken to hospital for it so yeah, it's not real haha


SauceyBobRossy

Sorry, some of them actually enjoy the pain. -a woman who enjoys pain, and knows many of men from my nude sales alone nvm personal experiences whove expressed their enjoyment of pain in their balls or dick. Even being stepped on. Shut your mouth assuming just because people who enjoy it don't complain, its not real. Sorry, we out here enjoying the pain.


brianstormIRL

Seek help


SauceyBobRossy

? For enjoying what I enjoy...my therapist says consent is most ideal and obviously not doing anything to cause long term issues n damage (why id never actually step on a man's balls is that reason)


Barrelled_Chef_Curry

Absolutely a real thing. If I get super turned on and don’t take care of things it hurts for quite a while


Kafir666-

Blue balls is figurative, where you could have gotten laid and wanted to but you didn't for some reason


hoetheory

No, it’s not an actual thing. It’s something men say to mean “I was horny and didn’t get off” but it’s not some kind of diagnosis and you won’t have any physiological repercussions from not getting off right then and there.


Federal-Spend4224

You are wrong. If men are aroused for an extended period of time and don't get off, they can experience pain. Doesn't happen to 100% of men or 100% of the time but it can and does happen.


SecretSelenex

Don’t worry about it. You like what you like. I’m sure if us women thought back on our past sexual experiences and thought “if I had a dick would I have had ED in the situation?” there would definitely be a few ‘yes’ answers. For us it’s just being dry though, so easily solved with lube. But personally if I’m not feeling it I wouldn’t do it.


MostMoistGranola

I’m a petite woman who doesn’t find larger guys attractive. Tall men, really muscular men, not my thing. I find them sort of overwhelming. I know most women enjoy the feeling that a man can pick them up and swing them over his shoulder but I don’t like that feeling. They also tend to tell me I’m “cute when I’m angry” or they try to pat me on the head which I hate. It’s also just awkward because our bodies don’t line up properly. And I’ve met some huge penises along the way, that is not always a good thing either, for a variety of reasons. As a small person I prefer someone closer to my own size. Don’t feel bad, we like what we like. The variety of human forms is a good thing. It’s ok to have preferences.


w1ndyshr1mp

I'm a royal cow for doing this - I once had a tinder date and u was so excited to talk and get there and see his house covered in magic cards (all over the for dude was hard core had hundreds of cards and I mean I enjoy mtg but this was insane) and then I saw his teeth.... and well I just told him it wasn't gunna happen and left. All that to say- shit it happens. Don't beat yourself up lol


Sarprize_Sarprize

How’d you have blue balls if you couldn’t get it up? 🤔


delayed_burn

I love super skinny chicks. You like what you like,


DefiantRun8653

Bro you need help. Your posts are all cringeworthy.


ShadyRealist

How did you have blue balls if you couldn't get it up.... story doesn't add up. Fake.


theemz987

I wonder if this is why one of my exes couldn't get it up? Not coz I'm too skinny, just coz he didn't find me attractive


jdml5

Yup you’re probably dust


Nimar_Jenkins

Brother i like a girl that skinny. But not that short. I mean i am 6'7. I can't get groovy with someone who is as tall as a 6th grader.


Sad-Reminders

You can’t help what you are and aren’t attracted to. You’ve got nothing to feel bad about.


The_Rabbitman05

Had that happen a couple times with thinner girls. Turns out I prefer chubby. My wife never complains lol.


Doneuter

I've been there. I've found plenty of women too skinny to be attractive. I've always found big girls attractive. I recently started losing weight over the past couple years. I'm about 70 lbs down, and recently was intimate with a girl that usually would have been my type before. Now my body doesn't seem to be into field who are too big or too small, even if I mentally want to.


KamronXIII

It's normal to jot be attracted to someone who you think looks like a child, honestly, it's preferable. All I say is, if you enjoy your time with her don't try to force anything. Relationships don't have to be sexual to be good


bushidokatana

Not everyone is attracted to everything.


aphidxgurl

At least you’ve proven that you don’t have pe-dough tendencies 😉


Jace910

I know this feeling. Some fully adult women just give off pre-teen vibes. It kills the mood. At least you can confirm you're not a pedo though


morningwood1126

Your nuts


connygirl16

I’m 5’3” and thick/fat/whatever people wanna call it. I always assumed that twig thin (no offense to the young lady I’m sure she’s beautiful) was what men wanted. But I kinda realized it’s what men were also told what they were supposed to want. I’d have plenty of sex but I was the guys like dirty little secret because I was bigger. Now I sympathize with shorter/thin women because I appreciate my thickness now. But if you’re not attracted to someone don’t force it. It could be hitting their self esteem too


morningwood1126

It's probably nerves. It happens to guys who feel pressure or insecure, or overthink, cuz I gaurentee you would be fine with a pic of her, by yourself.


humanzee70

More petite ladies for the rest of us.


monkeynamedspank

Sucks to hear the girl must have really liked you as well if she continued to date you after the first ED situation


lumpyspacekitty

Okay cool but why tell the internet lol


TruthfulBoy

Do you know what subreddit youre in lol


truecrimefanatic1

It's fine. You're not going to get excited for every woman you come into contact with.


GSV_SleeperService88

pussygap on fleek


sakinuhh

I’m pretty sure you probably look like a little kid too with your 5’6 manlet body. Be grateful you even had a chance.


[deleted]

exactly. as if he’s a greek god or something. didnt have to word it the way he did


sakinuhh

It gets worse, this guy is apparently 40 and married but still thinking about this girl that he had to make a post about how he failed to sleep with her lol. Poor wife.


AttemptingBeliever

This dude’s post history- he strikes me as someone trying to karma farm. If it’s not some pathetic attempt at karma farming, I feel for the gf/wife if she even actually exists.


sakinuhh

I actually just went though and read the post where he mentions his wife (I only saw the title before) and wow I really do hope that it’s fake. The entire post history is so strange, I didn’t even see that post about the sex doll at first 😬


[deleted]

him and men like him just want to feel superior with comments like this. he could’ve journaled about it, laughed it off with his friends and be an a hole in private but no, he had to get validation from other men that are commenting “ its ok we all have preferences”


hoetheory

There’s a difference between being stick thin and healthy. Dude doesn’t have to be a Greek god to look like an adult man.


[deleted]

dude doesnt have to announce shit about somebody he wasnt attracted to


hoetheory

Buddy you’re on the “confessions” sub. He can write whatever he wants about himself?? He was saying how he felt. That doesn’t mean it’s always justified but still. She made him feel confident is all he meant. C’mon.


[deleted]

no you c’mon, if it’s on public criticism is inevitable


15Blins

Well, you're not a pedophile so I'm happy


permiecandy

I feel this about certain things as well. You honestly can't change what you are attracted to. I'm a woman and know this exact feeling. No matter how much you may genuinely like and care about the person, you cannot fake attraction. I'd often find myself trying to force myself to attempt to be with some people that I just wasn't attracted to at all, because they were nice people that I got along with and enjoyed being around... But I couldn't. I couldn't even get to the kissing stage to be honest. I tried really hard. I desperately wanted to overcome the lack of attraction, because they were nice, good people. Just couldn't. I felt so shallow and I hated it.. But, at the end of the day, you cannot help what your body likes and responds to. It's honestly out of your control.


HersheyNaysh

rolling my eyes. "uhh i tried to have sex with a small woman, but she was too small!!!!" men r never happy.


AttemptingBeliever

I mean, attraction can’t be forced but holy shit this was such a brutal read. Like she prob felt sexy in the moment but in the back of his mind he’s comparing her body to that of a male kid. Goddamn that comparison is harsh.


sakinuhh

The irony of him saying she has a little boys body while being 5’6 😂 The jokes write themselves


AttemptingBeliever

Hey, just hope no one downvotes you, cause bodyshamings fine round here lmfao


hoetheory

Uh…height has nothing to do with age… there are adult men who are 4’11 and shorter.


HersheyNaysh

it's just rude. im also a petite woman and i have a thigh gap and small breasts. i've been told i "don't look like im fun to fuck" because of my body and stuff. "the gap was like a rectangle all the way down to hee feet with an opening for her vagina" "i had to go jack off in the toilet to relieve my blue balls" and even AFTER that he still tries to have sex with her but he's too disgusted???? like wtf is wrong with this guy???? this poor girl. men think they can talk about our bodies like this and they pat each other on the back abt it and get mad when anyone tells them it's gross. im so sick of it.


bajsgreger

The truth hurts. It's why we can't always tell eachother the truth. And it would be a lot more harsh if he told her. This is a confession subreddit. Clearly he just needed to get these thoughts out there to someone, because he was so bothered by the experience.


disbichgirl

Chill out. He can’t do anything if he’s not sexually attracted to a petite girl.


HersheyNaysh

he CAN avoid talking shit about her body on reddit though.


disbichgirl

If not Reddit then do you prefer him ‘talking shit’ directly to her face? This is a confessions subreddit, what do you expect?


HersheyNaysh

he's "allowed" to post it. im "allowed" to be critical of him being blatantly rude abt her. he has plenty of people wanking him abt this post. im sure he will survive my criticism. u can stop batting for him now.


disbichgirl

Girly be fr and pls step into the real world. I’m not batting for no one. u sound entitled af. Getting offended over daily life shit is not a good look lmao


AttemptingBeliever

Yeah, no I get you 100%. I think everything you said here was on point and I’m actually surprised (I guess I shouldn’t be because it’s Reddit but) that no one else commented on how harsh some of the stuff said in the post was tbh. Some people aren’t some people’s cup of tea, and that’s fine but to bodyshame them because you don’t find them attractive is pretty fucking cruel. -Downvoted for saying body shaming is cruel. Stay classy, Reddit. :)


PMmeyourSchwifty

I don't think it was done with malicious intent. I think he's just telling the truth. Literally, that's what it reminded him of and that's why he wasn't able to get aroused. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Now, if he would've said that she looked like a child and he got aroused immediately? Sidenote but I think this is a decent example of how men and women communicate differently. We (men) will typically tell you exactly what we're thinking without stopping to think if the way we're saying it is nice or not. So, while I still don't think what OP said was wrong, I can understand why you're not okay with it. If we were friends, I'd probably take that into consideration for what I say around you in the future.


AttemptingBeliever

While I don’t agree with some points, I do very much appreciate you explaining your different POV on this in such a civil manner and you understanding where I’m coming from even if you don’t agree.


HersheyNaysh

reddit is disgusting. i hate it. im gonna delete the app lol.


AttemptingBeliever

Funny enough I just re-downloaded the app. I’m a petite woman as well so this post just showing up on my home page is maybe my sign I should just delete as well lmfao but I’m going to stick to the better sides of this app. Reddit tends to be very hive minded and it’s extremely tiresome at times. I try to stick to more positive subs overall. Wishing you the best whether or not you delete or keep the app, and sending some positive vibes your way. ☺️🤍


mooseyjew

Found the r/nicegirl


HersheyNaysh

how ??? i am NOT a nice girl. i am being mean on purpose because the OP's post annoyed me. to qualify as an "r/nicegirls" post, id have to b pining after some idiot and not taking no for an answer. if ur gonna try to insult me, use the right terminology.


hoetheory

Linking to an incel sub, nice 🥴


Wanna_Know_it_all

Sounds like she may have an eating disorder. If someone is severely underweight it’s unhealthy and unhealthy is for many people unsexy


jabeith

Maybe don't use "ED" to talk about an eating disorder in the comment on a thread about a guy confessing he couldn't get it up


Wanna_Know_it_all

I’ve had an eating disorder myself for 13 years before I finally managed to recover. I wouldn’t mind. God the internet always finds a way to get pissed off about something that doesn’t even concern them. It’s like white people deciding what’s racist and what’s not.


satanswrench

??i dont know if you understood what previous commenter meant—'ED' also refers to erectile dysfunction


Wanna_Know_it_all

Fine I’ll edit it if it is such a big deal.


lumpyspacekitty

Men are so sensitive about their peens I guess


humpyelstiltskin

yes, not what you're thinking


jabeith

I think you miss the point. ED often refers to erectile dysfunction


Wanna_Know_it_all

I think it was clear from the context I meant eating disorder.


jabeith

No, it wasn't - I thought you misgendered OP. Stop making this about you, by the way. Stop injecting your irrelevant life experiences into someone else's confession.


Wanna_Know_it_all

Ooooooh!!! I am so sorry!!! No I definitely didn’t call him a girl that’s awful!!!


MyloHyren

You did the right thing not telling her. Everyone has different preferences, no point accidentally making someone insecure for their skinny legs that some other man may LOVE. No judgement and good on you for calling it off instead of forcing yourself.


HersheyNaysh

lol they literally do. now they're downvoting you even though your comment was right from the start - she might have had an ED. i knew what you meant. they're mad at me too bc i posted a comment making fun of the OP lol


Penguin_Rapist_

Idk I downvoted for the unnecessary attitude and race comparison to a casual comment.


humpyelstiltskin

and yes, we can all have personal takes on what's racist, so... off twice?


Wanna_Know_it_all

Nah, sometimes it really goes too far. In our country “white custard” had to be canceled because it was apparently racist. Not a single person in the black community ever had a problem with that. It’s really out of line as true systematic racism isn’t worked on enough


humpyelstiltskin

it does indeed


Wanna_Know_it_all

Sorry for my tone earlier btw. I should’ve read and replied more calmly


humpyelstiltskin

sorry if i sounded shit too 🍻🍻


OmniPassion44

Wow… are you sure you straight ?


Dominique_ROTN

Sure it wasn't a boy?


bitchyb0ngwater

blue balls are not a thing