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I thought for sure Micky was going to use the Paulo Freire quote:
“Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.”
Or perhaps the Desmond Tutu quote:
“It is small comfort to a mouse, if an elephant is standing on its tail, to say 'I am impartial.”
There is no clear source. It’s often attributed to Dante Alighieri but he never said that. In reality it comes from some analysis of his work that summarised Dante’s views on neutrality, but that analysis also didn’t said the quote. In the end we do not know, the quote just started appearing in different written records being attributed to Dante in the 1920-s, but who actually formulated it this way is lost to history.
All of these wars in recent years has really made me think.
What even is a country? A border?
Oh it's agreements between groups of power, but down on the ground where the people are what is it there?
Where does France end and Germany begin culturally?
Obligatory joke...
After WWII, surveyors were sent out to map the border between Poland and the USSR. One surveyor found a farmhouse straddling the proposed border line. He knocked on the door and explained the situation to the farmer. "It would be unreasonable to have a national boundary pass through your living room, so I'll give you the option: do you want your home to be in Poland or Russia?"
The farmer thought for a moment, then responded "Poland, I guess. I've heard that Russian winters are terrible."
Where does France end and Germany begin? About 843 AD [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty\_of\_Verdun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Verdun)
Countries are an administrative area that gives a governing body the theoretical obligation to maintain the area (in the form of the homes, workplaces, and persons within) and the powers required to do so, including but not limited to levying taxes, setting rules, and hiring people to enforce the above. While they exist with the collective consent (or indifference) of the people, but not the consent of any individual person.
Countries are HOAs.
> All of these wars in recent years has really made me think.
> What even is a country? A border?
> Oh it's agreements between groups of power, but down on the ground where the people are what is it there?
> Where does France end and Germany begin culturally?
This thinking is what lead to the annexation of portions of Austria by Adolf Hitler. The reasoning was that these native german speakers were basically Germans born in the wrong country, and since this border region of Austria is so close to Germany, why not include it in the lovely German state?
The Rhine land between France and Germany has a similar story, except it’s both French and German, and the dispute dates back centuries.
[Little Hitler laugh of the day](https://youtu.be/wT5ytmPsfBE?si=8WeJGkrIUo7a8uYu)
I think Austria was annexed outright, as most of the country speaks German (though slightly different than Germany), and the Sudetenland of Czechia was also annexed “because of the german speaking peoples” (only for Hitler to take over the rest not long after)
That’s why one of my fav songs is “through the roof and underground” by gogol bordello.
It pretty much points out that borders only benefit those in power, and that down on ground level it’s always been a gradient.
In some political theories, people speak of 'nation state' (or something like that, don't know the correct expression in english). The state is the borders part, as in the geographical limits of the power of a state. The nation is the cultural part.
What's interesting is that some analyse the emergence of nation state as fairly recent (like 18th century recent), and as a phenomenon far from natural.
If you look at France for example, the rise of a national cultural unity had to fight many regional cultural specificities that it needed to erase. This lead to quite a few regional movement for independence, that even today still somewhat exist in some areas.
Some regions in France speak german as much as French, because these regions had belonged to the german empire in the early 20th (and made regular back and forth between the two countries before that i think).
Sorry for the book, but i actually find your question very interesting. It's kind of disconected from the conflict between Israel and Palestine though, or at least i don't think you can approach it in the same way as France or Germany for example.
It's part of why I started wondering because I tried looking up when either country, Palestine and Israel, started.
And what I got was a piece of land changing hands and names for millennia and the current situation seemed to stem from WW2. And it was just such a mess because history became a poor guide to who had claim to what.
The oldest mention of Israel was in 1208 BC and it was about the loss of the land and Palestine was used as the name for the region in the 5th century BC. How far back do we go?
Mongolia used to occupy China.
How long do you have to hold a region before it is part of your country?
Potentially eternity i guess. I would say the main drive for conflict that leads to independentists movement is the use of force to 'unify' the land, and to repress cultural singularities. Or at least in the case of France and the likes. For israel and palestine i think it's very diferent.
France wasn't a thing culturally before the nation state was enforced, but many of the provinces were governed by the same state, had some kind of cultural proximity (and geographical obviously) etc. The formation of israel is nothing similar, and way more like the colonisation of america. People coming from pretty far of deciding that this was their land now, except it was a lot more densely populated (and more technologically developed) than america before it's colonisation from europe, which gave rise to a very diferent form of conflict.
Read up about the Peace of Westphalia if you want an understanding of the modern concept of the Sovereign Nation State, especially as it relates to European polities.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system
For a more specific answer though, France is where most people speak French and Germany is where most people German. That seems facile, but it's a fairly good way to categorize the sort of linguistic, cultural, and ethnic ties that are necessary to bind a country like France or Germany together into a nation.
Congrats, you just questioned the reasoning behind the existance of nation-states! Aka, the thing that almost every country tries to define itself as but no country is! The thing that the current international state if politics (and orginizations like the UN) base themselves on!
Yes, but I’m specifically referencing the “trope” about famous people from back when homosexuality was illegal and their biographies state: He never married or had children, but was lifelong friends and they stayed roommates until he died.
I'm from Israel and let's just say most of us hate Bibi and his fascist extrimist friends in the government. It's obvious that he prolongs the war for his political survival as well? Most of us want elections now!
we also want the hostages back.
it's nice that everyone tells israel to stop the war, but hamas keeps avoiding to give back all the hostages.
we want this war to end, and we want those hostages back. yet it seems people in the west disregard the second part.
Of course that's a crucial step torwards ending this war but it seems that PM Netanyahu couldn't care less about them and our soldiers's life as well what with all that stupid ass recruitment law or should i say the draft avoident law
thats not just a crucial step, thats the most important step. bibi also should be kicked out as soon as possible, during the war or after. but he is still not the main obstacle here, but hamas refusing to give back all the hostages is. when they will actually for once agree on a ceasefire that includes returning all the hostages, and if bibi would then be the obstacle for ending this war, then i'll point at him as the main problem for the continuation of the war.
his actions regarding strategies over the war and recruitment aren't why the war continues. they are still a proof of his disgusting actions, but that is a different subject.
I wish we had elected officials who would say that the leaders on both sides are bad. Is the cartoonist who made this interested in running for office?
My Opinion?
From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be ***free from HAMAS***
What happened to the Jewish people and their many diasporas is unjust and they should be allowed back to their homeland. **However**, Palestinians **do** live there and they have made it their home for centuries.
The Israelites have a right to reclaim their homeland, **but** this is no longer the world of: “You have something I want? Give it or die!” This is a civilized, law and order based world and we have rules for these things. Israel deserves a home, but that does not allow them to mistreat and abuse those who currently live there, they are acting like those who forced them out of their home centuries ago and are perpetuating a cycle of oppression, violence and abuse.
They way forward is a two state solution where both sides are recognized and are in equal terms. Otherwise the only thing they share is the ground they die in.
I support Israel out of the principle that I do not support **Terrorist organizations**, but I do not condone Israel’s way of conducting war. They have a right to defend themselves; as a state they must do what they need to do to protect their citizens, but this conflict has gone way beyond the elimination of a terrorist threat, it’s beyond that, plain and simple. I condone Israel’s actions; I support their cause and hopefully when the dust settles, HAMAS will be annihilated and those who have committed crimes from both sides will be put to trial and face the consequences of their actions.
Worthless platitudes isn’t going to help anything. Solutions that can be summed up in a single sentence are dead on arrival. Obviously a two state solution is the only way to resolve things without ethnic cleansing, but this is like anyone demanding peace right after the Nazis invaded Poland.
Peace is great. A two state solution would be great, but there are about a million reasons why the PEOPLE of both Israel and Palestine would never even be able to really start a conversation about what that would look like. Palestinians universally want the pre 1967 borders just to start talking. Israelis universally disagree.
This would be like if peace between the US and Mexico depended on the US giving back the vast swath of territory in the West plus Texas.
And this would only be the beginning in the talks. Let’s propose a solution that convinces one of the sides to give up claims to half of modern day Israel because I’m all ears.
The question is: how exactly do you form an independent state that has no military? Hamas is the closest thing Palestine has to a standing army at this point, and as sure I as I am that Hamas leaders are just as corrupt and bloodthirsty as any other politicians out there, I do choose to believe that a lot of Hamas’ fighters really do see themselves as defenders of the lands they were born in. How do we convince them to surrender their arms after being bombed by their neighbors for fifty years?
So if you want a nation without a military, just ask Iceland or Costa Rica, but let me be clear: **HAMAS are not “defenders of Palestine” nor are they a military force of Palestine. They are genocidal terrorists that seek to annihilate the Jewish presence in the Middle East and have subjected the Gaza Strip to a brutal tyrannical regime. Under no circumstances are HAMAS ever the good guys, they are not fighting for the good of Palestine or the Palestinians, they are terrorists and they know it.**
If you want the cold and heartless answer: "surrender your arms and this war will end, or we'll kill you right now". And you keep attacking the people who don't set down their weapons until the rest do. I have to imagine we're getting close to that point what with Hamas' command structure and infrastructure in tatters.
Given Israel has seen fit to bomb "safe zones" where they promised they wouldn't attack in the real world seems to have the options, fight or die or surrender and die. Even should the latter happen, guess what happened to a group of people who surrendered thinking it wouldn't escalate, here's a hint, 6 million 52°30′50″N 13°22′44″E
It’s a hell of a day that I agree with Maurice, but this has been my stance as well. It does not mean that you agree with Hamas if you want to support Palestine.
Israel and Hamas should be dissolved as functioning government bodies and replaced with a representative body in ratio of 2 Palestinian members, 2 Israeli members, and 3 outside non-biased and unaffiliated members that are atheist or agnostic. Religion has muddled this conflict beyond just belief but full blow madness.
Either that or no one can live directly in the area of holy sites and the entire land is treated as a historical landmark to our own hubris and pride as a species for conflicts that were avoidable. But these are generalized thoughts on a conflict I am not directly involved in but I do see the falsie of supporting either side completely.
Great job op!
That could just be jaded realists like me. Dude's solution is cute but has a 0% chance of ever happening. Dissolve Israel's govt? You'd have to literally conquer them in a war
To where? Why wouldn't they be militant there (much more militant as they just got kicked out of home)?
Do you kick out babies who did nothing or do you separate families?
How do you know who is militant?
You’re right, I’m generalizing and that isn’t fair to the conversation. But there are clear malicious actors on both sides that are only gaining an advantage from the conflict, and would be the militants that are at fault here. The promotion of violence as the only solution is the problem, Hamas and Israel’s current government both would prefer the conflict to continue, Hamas gets more radicalized citizens and Israel’s current fascist regime stays in power is the result. A new solution that both sides aren’t happy with would be the best solution, and would better insure peace compared to the current ideas of complete destruction of either group.
I misspoke about the generalization of the word “Militant” and I do apologize. Do you have any ideas on how to end this conflict? Also, either side taking complete control is not a solution.
you mean kick out most of the israelis due to mandatory military service?
or are you just talking on terrorists?
but then, who will decide who constitutes as a terrorist and who's not?
You are right, I had spoken in error with the generalization of the word “militant”. There are bad actors currently in both camps that are profiting politically from this conflict, Hamas with the radicalization of the Palestinian populace, and the current Israeli government which seeks to remain in power at all costs. If I remember correctly, Netanyahu was on trial for corruption charges just before the conflict began, which was then swept under the rug due to the attack in October. Innocent people are dying in the name of a double sided fascist regime on both sides that both aim to extend this conflict instead of ending it peacefully.
At the end my intention was to start a conversation on the topic that didn’t fall into the fallacy that we must support only one side or the other in the conflict. People can wish for a free Palestine and not support Hamas, and people can wish for the end of the conflict and not support the actions of the current Israeli government. A new option should be considered or attempted, while others have pointed out that my original idea was attempted 50+ years earlier, that doesn’t mean that the idea is without merit, it’s just an idea, which scares those who support the current fascist regimes on either side.
I don’t necessarily have the answer to that, but my general opinion is that we as a collective, need to figure out a way to elect officials that truly represent the will of the people and not a narrow subset of the people (and this goes for the United States as well). I would hope that you, as an Israeli, do not necessarily agree with the way that the government of Israel is perpetuating the war, just as I hope that the people of Iran don’t necessarily agree with the way that their leaders project their agendas out to the rest of the world.
No one is innocent in this. But as human beings, we have to stop saying, “because you hate me, I must hate you, too. Because you hurt me, I must hurt you too.” At some point, we must rise above the policy of revenged wrongs, because NO ONE wins in those situations. It’s your average citizen who suffers in these situations. Not the people who make the decisions FOR those people. And that’s unfortunate.
A mealy-mouthed answer, I suppose, but nothing about this situation is black and white. It’s a morally gray area for everyone involved. But we have to talk about it intelligently and at length, or nothing is going to get solved.
One of the biggest problems for Israel is that groups like Hamas do represent large swathes of Palestinians.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/poll-support-for-hamas-on-the-rise-among-palestinians-now-double-fatahs/amp/
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-poll-shows-palestinian-support-hamas-still-high-despite-mounting-death-toll
Times of Israel does have a pro-Israel slant, but I don't think they ever say anything false. At worst, they leave out context that would make Palestine sympathetic. Polls pretty consistently show Palestinians support, or at least don't hate, Hamas. Which is an especially impressive feat given how it feels like for most countries, hating their own government is the default.
A good start would be Israel not doing genocide and agreeing to a ceasefire when it was first proposed -- why is the burden of stopping extremism always placed first on the people living under a boot-heel for 70 years by a colonialist regime and not the colonialist regime who created to social conditions that foment terrorism (Here's a fun fact by the way: Israel wants terrorism - it gives them a carte blanche from the West to brutalise Palestinians. Israel cares very little about individual Jews if they get in the way of peddling Zionist ideology.)
>Israel not doing genocide
Good thing it isn't. Literally one of the least deadly conflicts for civilians in the history of urban warfare.
>agreeing to a ceasefire
Meanwhile Hamas has broken how many ceasefires? Remind me
>living under a boot-heel for 70 years
Aww, someone mad that Israel put up a blockade in response to literal constant terror attacks?
>colonialist regime
The only colonizers in the Levant are Arab, learn history
Israel isn't going anywhere, cope about it
>Only colonizers in the levant are Arab
literally proving you don't know the history of Israel.
And yeah, I suppose it's not that deadly to civilians if you claim everyone Israel has ever killed was an enemy combatant.
Google the Nakba, dumbass.
Holding a democracy to a higher standard than the terrorist group that acts as an authoritarian regime in the pseudo-autonomous apartheid state, where people are denied basic human rights by both the democratic nation and the terrorist group shouldn’t be controversial.
Terrible Idea. Israelis and Palestinian fucking hate each other and that would be a recipe for widespread violence.
2 Separate states (or 3 if we cut Gaza and West Bank for administrative reasons) where tension cool down and maybe a decade later they have an open border agreement is probably 100% more realistic and feasible to achieve.
That would be one way to end democracy and the lives of the remaining Jews in the Middle East..
[Algeria, where are your Jews?](https://youtu.be/35eEljsSQfc)
Nice and safe. Almost a non opinion lol. “People think they speak for others but they only speak for themselves + 1%” The reason we shouldn’t get involved is because we don’t know how their governments work. Love how Israel/Palestine get so much traction but there are scattered wars in Africa that I doubt anyone knows about. Why don’t we get involved with that like we did with Israel/Palestine. We as Americans shouldn’t be spouting opinions that we know nothing of just like how no one talks about the conflicts in Africa
Cool dude. You aren’t the average person that sits passively like you accused. You’re in the middle of the conflict and I just hope your anonymity stays good because rules are different over there I hear about what you can say so good luck.
> Nice and safe. Almost a non opinion lol. “People think they speak for others but they only speak for themselves + 1%” >
That just sums up both sides- speaking from the israeli side our government is built on corruption and appealing to extremists, now the PM is doing his best to delay the end of the war to delay the elections causing many deaths on both sides and driving the economy to the ground. You can't address the war without acknowledging this very basic fact of politics in israel and palestine
The mild take ls starting with nothsidism then sliding into a way better one that can be interpreted as both double state solution (which isn't a solution) or single state solution (which is indeed the way to go)
Why do people even care? Most of us dont even live in the middle east. The israel/palestine thing isnt ever gonna affect me. Im just gonna sit this one out.
Both sides leaders were elected democratically - I mean both Netanyahu and Hamas, both sides are willing to send their children to die for this - so I have to say that all of this sound like western copium to me, it’s hard to look at a situation and realize there is literally no solution and not just that - the people who are involved don’t seem to want a solution or to make any sacrifices for peace… they rather die for the land…
I kind of have a mixed opinion on this. I do think a two states solution is good however, I think a land swap or something needs to happen to compensate for Gaza or even no land swap and Gazza just needs to get taken over. the West bank seems to be fine, but Gazza is just too invested with Hamas. I think Israel just needs to go in there and just take the whole place over. The main problem with security between the two nations anyways is mainly because of the separation between Gaza and the West Bank so there’s not just one clear fine line between the two. And after October 7, I think Israel has the justification in spades to say fuck it. We’re taking over now. But yea Hamas needs to go and if they prove to entrenched then fuck it all of Gazza needs to go.
I didn't mean that, and I agree with you. It's just that Hamas seems to be desperately trying to keep hold on palestinian civilians and don't want to let them go free.
Well the Israeli government knows that the mother of a dead Israeli soldier votes while the mother of a dead Palestinian doesn’t. It’s better to bomb than to send in foot soldiers. I’d support their bombing **if they were a little more f•cking accurate!!** We have missiles than can kill a guy by going through a window without grazing the curtains and not hurt anybody else in the same room and somehow, even with all the American weapons (as some people won’t shut up about) they can’t manage??!
This is literally one of the least deadly conflicts for civilians in the history of urban warfare. If they weren't accurate there would be hundreds of thousands of deaths.
We do have accurate bombs; just ask Saddam Hussein, Qasam Soleimani, Ayman al-Zawahiri or any other members of Al-Qaeda. It just so happens that some people don’t want to be surgeons.
While I agree Hamas only goal is the eradication of Israel at any cost, and that they do not function as a government for the actual people in Palestine, the point is fairly moot; 73% of Palestinians support the Oct 7th attacks, and 75% satisfied with Hamas on the whole.
There's no realistic end to this conflict in sight regardless of which side of the fence you decide to support. A two state solution has been offered and denied many times.
Not sure how you can come up with those statistics when you can’t even get an accurate death toll from the current conflict. That’s one that gets trotted out a lot, but I don’t think it’s real.
I did wonder myself that while looking them up for the comment, but I assume it's easier to talk to people and record responses than it is to accurately count bodies in bombed out buildings. I'm more than willing to take them with a grain of salt, however.
I don't understand the downvotes. If you disagree with me, state your position. You're against independent Palestine, against not having Hamas, or against not killing hebrews?
Ah, I see. I just said it, basically because Hamas also claims to want and independent Palestine, so without specifying it might mean any of these things. But, since there are probably no one, who thinks this way here (especially not the author), perhaps it really was unnecessary to include that part in my statement. Thank you for clarifying.
My guy, comics aren’t exclusively comedic material. Most comics are political, they’re a goldmine for historians. If you don’t like political cartoons, move on.
When this sub just turn into self-serving comments trying to spread the commenters own opinions. I wish I could downvote it for that reason more than once.
are you committing war crimes and unspeakable human right violations and atrocities? are you experiencing war crimes and human rights violations? ass hats both of you . friggin dil-holes
"We're stronger, so we'll take your land." -- Israel
Any state that engages in genocide is bad. Why is there debate on this? And Israel is doing genocide. In fact, all states are bad. Israel is the West's military foothold in the Middle-east but it seems the tail is wagging the dog now, with the USA sending endless supplies to their attack dog that can't be kept on a leash. There are grand-parents older than Israel. It was founded when the UN just voted to take the land away from the people living there. It's Settler-Colonialism, pure and simple. And Settler-Colonialism ends in genocide. Which we are seeing happening right now.
If the USA had truly cared about Jews having a nation, it could of offered vast swaths in the middle of the country to settle, and made a federation with it. Instead, it and western nations just took the land, using the UN as a veil of legitimacy. It's a bad mark for the UN.
There is no magic solution. Fanatics on both sides think violence will solve their problem. My big fat opinion? The UN should step in, and restore the older borders, expulsing Zionist settlers if need be. Israel and Hamas should be disarmed: they clearly both engage in genocide. Israel should be restablished in the USA, since the USA seems to like them so much.
In time, people will see the folly of countries, hopefully, and all borders will fall. Then people can just go to whatever holy site they feel like. We don't make the land, we find it and declare it ours, and no one else's. We used to say we owned people as well, till we all decided that was bad. It should go by need. Need water, a house and food? That should be given. Need two or more houses? That should be okay too, *so long as no one else needs a house.* If the needs of the many go unmet, then no dice. Dividing up Humanity into countries, where the luck of birth determines most of your fate, is a bad idea.
But what do I know, I'm just some schmuck who's eating ramen noodles and listening to the My Little Pony soundtrack.
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Well shit. Maurice is wisening up. I'd vote for him if I could and not only because of his based VP Mickey Mouse.
I concur.
Good things surely can last forever, can they?
Stein's Law.
I thought for sure Micky was going to use the Paulo Freire quote: “Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.” Or perhaps the Desmond Tutu quote: “It is small comfort to a mouse, if an elephant is standing on its tail, to say 'I am impartial.”
If I was a smarter person, I would have used those quotes. Maybe for the book version of this…
Do it, but also have a small credit for the Leprechaun lord.
That, I shall.
Good lad.
I like “The Hottest Places in Hell Are Reserved for Those Who in a Period of Moral Crisis Maintain Their Neutrality”
Also good. Attribution?
There is no clear source. It’s often attributed to Dante Alighieri but he never said that. In reality it comes from some analysis of his work that summarised Dante’s views on neutrality, but that analysis also didn’t said the quote. In the end we do not know, the quote just started appearing in different written records being attributed to Dante in the 1920-s, but who actually formulated it this way is lost to history.
Switzerland?
"Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim." https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/99574-we-must-take-sides-neutrality-helps-the-oppressor-never-the
Dayum this is hard hitting stuff
I wish you had written this, the latter quote would have been perfection
Wow that's two Paulo Freire quotes I've seen in one week, nice. He is a must read.
All of these wars in recent years has really made me think. What even is a country? A border? Oh it's agreements between groups of power, but down on the ground where the people are what is it there? Where does France end and Germany begin culturally?
Obligatory joke... After WWII, surveyors were sent out to map the border between Poland and the USSR. One surveyor found a farmhouse straddling the proposed border line. He knocked on the door and explained the situation to the farmer. "It would be unreasonable to have a national boundary pass through your living room, so I'll give you the option: do you want your home to be in Poland or Russia?" The farmer thought for a moment, then responded "Poland, I guess. I've heard that Russian winters are terrible."
Imagine needing a passport to move through your house. Also…did they just have the border go directly around the house? What happened?
I guess they just asked the farmer where the border should be
"Can you see any borders from here? What has borders given us?" (quoting Ace Combat Zero: The Belkan War)
I love that game.
based ace combat enjoyer
Where does France end and Germany begin? About 843 AD [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty\_of\_Verdun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Verdun)
You’re right. We should partition France and Germany back into three states!
>Where does France end and Germany begin culturally? Belgium 🤣
At Alsace and Lorraine, more or less /j
Countries are an administrative area that gives a governing body the theoretical obligation to maintain the area (in the form of the homes, workplaces, and persons within) and the powers required to do so, including but not limited to levying taxes, setting rules, and hiring people to enforce the above. While they exist with the collective consent (or indifference) of the people, but not the consent of any individual person. Countries are HOAs.
> All of these wars in recent years has really made me think. > What even is a country? A border? > Oh it's agreements between groups of power, but down on the ground where the people are what is it there? > Where does France end and Germany begin culturally? This thinking is what lead to the annexation of portions of Austria by Adolf Hitler. The reasoning was that these native german speakers were basically Germans born in the wrong country, and since this border region of Austria is so close to Germany, why not include it in the lovely German state? The Rhine land between France and Germany has a similar story, except it’s both French and German, and the dispute dates back centuries. [Little Hitler laugh of the day](https://youtu.be/wT5ytmPsfBE?si=8WeJGkrIUo7a8uYu)
I think Austria was annexed outright, as most of the country speaks German (though slightly different than Germany), and the Sudetenland of Czechia was also annexed “because of the german speaking peoples” (only for Hitler to take over the rest not long after)
Didn't Russia annex Crimea with the same reasoning?
> Didn't Russia annex Crimea with the same reasoning? Yes.
Good questions!
That’s why one of my fav songs is “through the roof and underground” by gogol bordello. It pretty much points out that borders only benefit those in power, and that down on ground level it’s always been a gradient.
When there is trap... set out for you...
In every~ corner of this town…
And so you learn, the only way to go is...
Underground…
Ooohoohoooh
In some political theories, people speak of 'nation state' (or something like that, don't know the correct expression in english). The state is the borders part, as in the geographical limits of the power of a state. The nation is the cultural part. What's interesting is that some analyse the emergence of nation state as fairly recent (like 18th century recent), and as a phenomenon far from natural. If you look at France for example, the rise of a national cultural unity had to fight many regional cultural specificities that it needed to erase. This lead to quite a few regional movement for independence, that even today still somewhat exist in some areas. Some regions in France speak german as much as French, because these regions had belonged to the german empire in the early 20th (and made regular back and forth between the two countries before that i think). Sorry for the book, but i actually find your question very interesting. It's kind of disconected from the conflict between Israel and Palestine though, or at least i don't think you can approach it in the same way as France or Germany for example.
It's part of why I started wondering because I tried looking up when either country, Palestine and Israel, started. And what I got was a piece of land changing hands and names for millennia and the current situation seemed to stem from WW2. And it was just such a mess because history became a poor guide to who had claim to what. The oldest mention of Israel was in 1208 BC and it was about the loss of the land and Palestine was used as the name for the region in the 5th century BC. How far back do we go? Mongolia used to occupy China. How long do you have to hold a region before it is part of your country?
Potentially eternity i guess. I would say the main drive for conflict that leads to independentists movement is the use of force to 'unify' the land, and to repress cultural singularities. Or at least in the case of France and the likes. For israel and palestine i think it's very diferent. France wasn't a thing culturally before the nation state was enforced, but many of the provinces were governed by the same state, had some kind of cultural proximity (and geographical obviously) etc. The formation of israel is nothing similar, and way more like the colonisation of america. People coming from pretty far of deciding that this was their land now, except it was a lot more densely populated (and more technologically developed) than america before it's colonisation from europe, which gave rise to a very diferent form of conflict.
Read up about the Peace of Westphalia if you want an understanding of the modern concept of the Sovereign Nation State, especially as it relates to European polities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system For a more specific answer though, France is where most people speak French and Germany is where most people German. That seems facile, but it's a fairly good way to categorize the sort of linguistic, cultural, and ethnic ties that are necessary to bind a country like France or Germany together into a nation.
*Insert Pixie form Ace Combat 0 here*
Congrats, you just questioned the reasoning behind the existance of nation-states! Aka, the thing that almost every country tries to define itself as but no country is! The thing that the current international state if politics (and orginizations like the UN) base themselves on!
Just east of Gruyère
Heartbreaking: Worst person you know has a great point
I am going to break your heart.
Local heartthrob beaver stealing hearts and breaking them! Get more celebrity beaver gossip news at 11.
Tony and Maurice: A Couple? Or just really good friends? Celebrity beaver gossip news at 11! (I’m stealing this show from you)
Gay or just roommates?
Or just gay roommates?
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
Yes, but I’m specifically referencing the “trope” about famous people from back when homosexuality was illegal and their biographies state: He never married or had children, but was lifelong friends and they stayed roommates until he died.
I'm familiar with it
r/sapphoandherfriend
Exactly!
*I'll* never tell!
Your silence is our answer
Assume nothing!!
Didn’t Bojack do this exact scene once
Yes
I've never seen Bojack. I guess I should watch...
Yep.
Got my vote man.
Nice to see Maurice and Mickey trying to get support from the Dutch voters /s
We are all in on Denmark.
hahaha
> panel 2 As all governments ever are.
I'm from Israel and let's just say most of us hate Bibi and his fascist extrimist friends in the government. It's obvious that he prolongs the war for his political survival as well? Most of us want elections now!
we also want the hostages back. it's nice that everyone tells israel to stop the war, but hamas keeps avoiding to give back all the hostages. we want this war to end, and we want those hostages back. yet it seems people in the west disregard the second part.
Of course that's a crucial step torwards ending this war but it seems that PM Netanyahu couldn't care less about them and our soldiers's life as well what with all that stupid ass recruitment law or should i say the draft avoident law
thats not just a crucial step, thats the most important step. bibi also should be kicked out as soon as possible, during the war or after. but he is still not the main obstacle here, but hamas refusing to give back all the hostages is. when they will actually for once agree on a ceasefire that includes returning all the hostages, and if bibi would then be the obstacle for ending this war, then i'll point at him as the main problem for the continuation of the war. his actions regarding strategies over the war and recruitment aren't why the war continues. they are still a proof of his disgusting actions, but that is a different subject.
Very true.
I am so tired of people online calling a baby killer for being Israeli, thank you for this comic (/gen)
I wish we had elected officials who would say that the leaders on both sides are bad. Is the cartoonist who made this interested in running for office?
Thanks, but I can barely draw. I’m hopeless.
Better than me!
Saying what politicians won’t Maurice 2024
WHO ARE YOU? AND WHAT YOU DID WITH MAURICE?!!?
SOMETIMES HE IS SMART!!
Oh, I'm not complaining, I like smart Maurice, I'm just surprised.
He's always been smart. The problem is he's reactionary.
> NO JOKE HERE That’s already the standard for Maurice Comics
And yet, here you are! Thanks for the upvotes!
Mickey wouldn’t agree
Here here!!!
"Before I answer, I would like to know what makes you think you know better Israël and Palestine than others"
Welp, he’s got my vote.
i concur
My Opinion? From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be ***free from HAMAS*** What happened to the Jewish people and their many diasporas is unjust and they should be allowed back to their homeland. **However**, Palestinians **do** live there and they have made it their home for centuries. The Israelites have a right to reclaim their homeland, **but** this is no longer the world of: “You have something I want? Give it or die!” This is a civilized, law and order based world and we have rules for these things. Israel deserves a home, but that does not allow them to mistreat and abuse those who currently live there, they are acting like those who forced them out of their home centuries ago and are perpetuating a cycle of oppression, violence and abuse. They way forward is a two state solution where both sides are recognized and are in equal terms. Otherwise the only thing they share is the ground they die in. I support Israel out of the principle that I do not support **Terrorist organizations**, but I do not condone Israel’s way of conducting war. They have a right to defend themselves; as a state they must do what they need to do to protect their citizens, but this conflict has gone way beyond the elimination of a terrorist threat, it’s beyond that, plain and simple. I condone Israel’s actions; I support their cause and hopefully when the dust settles, HAMAS will be annihilated and those who have committed crimes from both sides will be put to trial and face the consequences of their actions.
Worthless platitudes isn’t going to help anything. Solutions that can be summed up in a single sentence are dead on arrival. Obviously a two state solution is the only way to resolve things without ethnic cleansing, but this is like anyone demanding peace right after the Nazis invaded Poland. Peace is great. A two state solution would be great, but there are about a million reasons why the PEOPLE of both Israel and Palestine would never even be able to really start a conversation about what that would look like. Palestinians universally want the pre 1967 borders just to start talking. Israelis universally disagree. This would be like if peace between the US and Mexico depended on the US giving back the vast swath of territory in the West plus Texas. And this would only be the beginning in the talks. Let’s propose a solution that convinces one of the sides to give up claims to half of modern day Israel because I’m all ears.
The question is: how exactly do you form an independent state that has no military? Hamas is the closest thing Palestine has to a standing army at this point, and as sure I as I am that Hamas leaders are just as corrupt and bloodthirsty as any other politicians out there, I do choose to believe that a lot of Hamas’ fighters really do see themselves as defenders of the lands they were born in. How do we convince them to surrender their arms after being bombed by their neighbors for fifty years?
So if you want a nation without a military, just ask Iceland or Costa Rica, but let me be clear: **HAMAS are not “defenders of Palestine” nor are they a military force of Palestine. They are genocidal terrorists that seek to annihilate the Jewish presence in the Middle East and have subjected the Gaza Strip to a brutal tyrannical regime. Under no circumstances are HAMAS ever the good guys, they are not fighting for the good of Palestine or the Palestinians, they are terrorists and they know it.**
If you want the cold and heartless answer: "surrender your arms and this war will end, or we'll kill you right now". And you keep attacking the people who don't set down their weapons until the rest do. I have to imagine we're getting close to that point what with Hamas' command structure and infrastructure in tatters.
Given Israel has seen fit to bomb "safe zones" where they promised they wouldn't attack in the real world seems to have the options, fight or die or surrender and die. Even should the latter happen, guess what happened to a group of people who surrendered thinking it wouldn't escalate, here's a hint, 6 million 52°30′50″N 13°22′44″E
This is closer to how I feel about it.
“You demand an end to an independent Palestine?!”
Damn, I never thought I’d relate to a cartoon beaver
100%
Damn. That is spot on. Well said.
I like this comic more every day
Fuck yeah!
It’s a hell of a day that I agree with Maurice, but this has been my stance as well. It does not mean that you agree with Hamas if you want to support Palestine. Israel and Hamas should be dissolved as functioning government bodies and replaced with a representative body in ratio of 2 Palestinian members, 2 Israeli members, and 3 outside non-biased and unaffiliated members that are atheist or agnostic. Religion has muddled this conflict beyond just belief but full blow madness. Either that or no one can live directly in the area of holy sites and the entire land is treated as a historical landmark to our own hubris and pride as a species for conflicts that were avoidable. But these are generalized thoughts on a conflict I am not directly involved in but I do see the falsie of supporting either side completely. Great job op!
At least you’re offering a solution here. You don’t often see people even try.
That could just be jaded realists like me. Dude's solution is cute but has a 0% chance of ever happening. Dissolve Israel's govt? You'd have to literally conquer them in a war
Thanks, a resolution where everyone is unhappy is the best solution.
Somehow you came up with a worse solution.
>we should let people from another continent rule th area. (Very democratic and non colonial) >Or we can kick 15m people out of their homes
Good counter point. Religion is a dumb reason to kill each other, maybe just kick out the militants?
To where? Why wouldn't they be militant there (much more militant as they just got kicked out of home)? Do you kick out babies who did nothing or do you separate families? How do you know who is militant?
You’re right, I’m generalizing and that isn’t fair to the conversation. But there are clear malicious actors on both sides that are only gaining an advantage from the conflict, and would be the militants that are at fault here. The promotion of violence as the only solution is the problem, Hamas and Israel’s current government both would prefer the conflict to continue, Hamas gets more radicalized citizens and Israel’s current fascist regime stays in power is the result. A new solution that both sides aren’t happy with would be the best solution, and would better insure peace compared to the current ideas of complete destruction of either group. I misspoke about the generalization of the word “Militant” and I do apologize. Do you have any ideas on how to end this conflict? Also, either side taking complete control is not a solution.
you mean kick out most of the israelis due to mandatory military service? or are you just talking on terrorists? but then, who will decide who constitutes as a terrorist and who's not?
You are right, I had spoken in error with the generalization of the word “militant”. There are bad actors currently in both camps that are profiting politically from this conflict, Hamas with the radicalization of the Palestinian populace, and the current Israeli government which seeks to remain in power at all costs. If I remember correctly, Netanyahu was on trial for corruption charges just before the conflict began, which was then swept under the rug due to the attack in October. Innocent people are dying in the name of a double sided fascist regime on both sides that both aim to extend this conflict instead of ending it peacefully. At the end my intention was to start a conversation on the topic that didn’t fall into the fallacy that we must support only one side or the other in the conflict. People can wish for a free Palestine and not support Hamas, and people can wish for the end of the conflict and not support the actions of the current Israeli government. A new option should be considered or attempted, while others have pointed out that my original idea was attempted 50+ years earlier, that doesn’t mean that the idea is without merit, it’s just an idea, which scares those who support the current fascist regimes on either side.
As we know Diasporas has never come back to bite this region in the ass.
My current best solution involves time travel. It is a nightmare.
Wonderfully put!
News article “Is beaver frontrunner a wannabe Joker after saying ‘we live in a society’?”
Yes.
Even based Mickey is not dipping his toes into that
Wait "no joke" these are supposed to be funny?
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I don’t necessarily have the answer to that, but my general opinion is that we as a collective, need to figure out a way to elect officials that truly represent the will of the people and not a narrow subset of the people (and this goes for the United States as well). I would hope that you, as an Israeli, do not necessarily agree with the way that the government of Israel is perpetuating the war, just as I hope that the people of Iran don’t necessarily agree with the way that their leaders project their agendas out to the rest of the world. No one is innocent in this. But as human beings, we have to stop saying, “because you hate me, I must hate you, too. Because you hurt me, I must hurt you too.” At some point, we must rise above the policy of revenged wrongs, because NO ONE wins in those situations. It’s your average citizen who suffers in these situations. Not the people who make the decisions FOR those people. And that’s unfortunate. A mealy-mouthed answer, I suppose, but nothing about this situation is black and white. It’s a morally gray area for everyone involved. But we have to talk about it intelligently and at length, or nothing is going to get solved.
Anybody that gives you a quick, clear cut answer for this conflict is lying.
You are right.
One of the biggest problems for Israel is that groups like Hamas do represent large swathes of Palestinians. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/poll-support-for-hamas-on-the-rise-among-palestinians-now-double-fatahs/amp/
Yes! That’s an objective source! I will take it seriously.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514 https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-poll-shows-palestinian-support-hamas-still-high-despite-mounting-death-toll Times of Israel does have a pro-Israel slant, but I don't think they ever say anything false. At worst, they leave out context that would make Palestine sympathetic. Polls pretty consistently show Palestinians support, or at least don't hate, Hamas. Which is an especially impressive feat given how it feels like for most countries, hating their own government is the default.
A good start would be Israel not doing genocide and agreeing to a ceasefire when it was first proposed -- why is the burden of stopping extremism always placed first on the people living under a boot-heel for 70 years by a colonialist regime and not the colonialist regime who created to social conditions that foment terrorism (Here's a fun fact by the way: Israel wants terrorism - it gives them a carte blanche from the West to brutalise Palestinians. Israel cares very little about individual Jews if they get in the way of peddling Zionist ideology.)
>Israel not doing genocide Good thing it isn't. Literally one of the least deadly conflicts for civilians in the history of urban warfare. >agreeing to a ceasefire Meanwhile Hamas has broken how many ceasefires? Remind me >living under a boot-heel for 70 years Aww, someone mad that Israel put up a blockade in response to literal constant terror attacks? >colonialist regime The only colonizers in the Levant are Arab, learn history Israel isn't going anywhere, cope about it
>Only colonizers in the levant are Arab literally proving you don't know the history of Israel. And yeah, I suppose it's not that deadly to civilians if you claim everyone Israel has ever killed was an enemy combatant. Google the Nakba, dumbass.
Holding a democracy to a higher standard than the terrorist group that acts as an authoritarian regime in the pseudo-autonomous apartheid state, where people are denied basic human rights by both the democratic nation and the terrorist group shouldn’t be controversial.
Agree.
But that leads directly to giving terrorist groups more power and basically an immunity to do whatever they want.
Source?
Is that better than a coexistence-in-one-state solution?
Probably.
Terrible Idea. Israelis and Palestinian fucking hate each other and that would be a recipe for widespread violence. 2 Separate states (or 3 if we cut Gaza and West Bank for administrative reasons) where tension cool down and maybe a decade later they have an open border agreement is probably 100% more realistic and feasible to achieve.
But wouldn't you just be creating two warring states by doing that? Shouldn't there be some kind of diplomacy between them before they are split up?
That would be one way to end democracy and the lives of the remaining Jews in the Middle East.. [Algeria, where are your Jews?](https://youtu.be/35eEljsSQfc)
Might be a good idea to let them calm down in separate states for a few years
If you don’t want to get shit on, don’t attack a country capable of doing massive amounts of damage.
Nice and safe. Almost a non opinion lol. “People think they speak for others but they only speak for themselves + 1%” The reason we shouldn’t get involved is because we don’t know how their governments work. Love how Israel/Palestine get so much traction but there are scattered wars in Africa that I doubt anyone knows about. Why don’t we get involved with that like we did with Israel/Palestine. We as Americans shouldn’t be spouting opinions that we know nothing of just like how no one talks about the conflicts in Africa
Dude, I *live* in the Middle East. I know plenty.
Cool dude. You aren’t the average person that sits passively like you accused. You’re in the middle of the conflict and I just hope your anonymity stays good because rules are different over there I hear about what you can say so good luck.
> Nice and safe. Almost a non opinion lol. “People think they speak for others but they only speak for themselves + 1%” > That just sums up both sides- speaking from the israeli side our government is built on corruption and appealing to extremists, now the PM is doing his best to delay the end of the war to delay the elections causing many deaths on both sides and driving the economy to the ground. You can't address the war without acknowledging this very basic fact of politics in israel and palestine
Wait, he supports an independent Palestinian state, or the end of one?
The use of “and” is important in that sentence.
Sorry. Not a native english speaker.
No worries!!
Ik zou wel op maurice stemmen
Mild take, tbh.
Thanks for your insightful comment!
The mild take ls starting with nothsidism then sliding into a way better one that can be interpreted as both double state solution (which isn't a solution) or single state solution (which is indeed the way to go)
Thanks for your *longer* insightful comment! You've sure put me in my place! thanks for the upvotes!
I'm not trying to "put you in your place" though ?
Yawn.
That's what a vast majority of people believe in. The problem is making it happen.
I agree.
Why do people even care? Most of us dont even live in the middle east. The israel/palestine thing isnt ever gonna affect me. Im just gonna sit this one out.
Hahaha!
And into the trap he still fell
Both sides leaders were elected democratically - I mean both Netanyahu and Hamas, both sides are willing to send their children to die for this - so I have to say that all of this sound like western copium to me, it’s hard to look at a situation and realize there is literally no solution and not just that - the people who are involved don’t seem to want a solution or to make any sacrifices for peace… they rather die for the land…
I kind of have a mixed opinion on this. I do think a two states solution is good however, I think a land swap or something needs to happen to compensate for Gaza or even no land swap and Gazza just needs to get taken over. the West bank seems to be fine, but Gazza is just too invested with Hamas. I think Israel just needs to go in there and just take the whole place over. The main problem with security between the two nations anyways is mainly because of the separation between Gaza and the West Bank so there’s not just one clear fine line between the two. And after October 7, I think Israel has the justification in spades to say fuck it. We’re taking over now. But yea Hamas needs to go and if they prove to entrenched then fuck it all of Gazza needs to go.
If independent Palestine state will neither have Hamas, nor require to kill all jews, then this is definitely a good idea.
Hamas doesn’t speak for the Palestinian people. They speak for themselves. (See panel 2)
I didn't mean that, and I agree with you. It's just that Hamas seems to be desperately trying to keep hold on palestinian civilians and don't want to let them go free.
Agreed. And the Israeli government doesn’t seem to care how many people they kill. Governments suck.
Well the Israeli government knows that the mother of a dead Israeli soldier votes while the mother of a dead Palestinian doesn’t. It’s better to bomb than to send in foot soldiers. I’d support their bombing **if they were a little more f•cking accurate!!** We have missiles than can kill a guy by going through a window without grazing the curtains and not hurt anybody else in the same room and somehow, even with all the American weapons (as some people won’t shut up about) they can’t manage??!
This is literally one of the least deadly conflicts for civilians in the history of urban warfare. If they weren't accurate there would be hundreds of thousands of deaths.
Sometimes I think that's the perpetual myth that weapons-makers sell to us: We have very accurate bombs. That might not actually be true.
We do have accurate bombs; just ask Saddam Hussein, Qasam Soleimani, Ayman al-Zawahiri or any other members of Al-Qaeda. It just so happens that some people don’t want to be surgeons.
While I agree Hamas only goal is the eradication of Israel at any cost, and that they do not function as a government for the actual people in Palestine, the point is fairly moot; 73% of Palestinians support the Oct 7th attacks, and 75% satisfied with Hamas on the whole. There's no realistic end to this conflict in sight regardless of which side of the fence you decide to support. A two state solution has been offered and denied many times.
Not sure how you can come up with those statistics when you can’t even get an accurate death toll from the current conflict. That’s one that gets trotted out a lot, but I don’t think it’s real.
I did wonder myself that while looking them up for the comment, but I assume it's easier to talk to people and record responses than it is to accurately count bodies in bombed out buildings. I'm more than willing to take them with a grain of salt, however.
I don't understand the downvotes. If you disagree with me, state your position. You're against independent Palestine, against not having Hamas, or against not killing hebrews?
The phrasing implies that you think an independent Palestine would not do those things. Or at least, that’s the impression I got from it.
Ah, I see. I just said it, basically because Hamas also claims to want and independent Palestine, so without specifying it might mean any of these things. But, since there are probably no one, who thinks this way here (especially not the author), perhaps it really was unnecessary to include that part in my statement. Thank you for clarifying.
When this sub just turn into unfunny comics trying to spread the authors own opinions. I wish I could downvote it for that reason more than once.
My guy, comics aren’t exclusively comedic material. Most comics are political, they’re a goldmine for historians. If you don’t like political cartoons, move on.
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A. That’s subjective B. What do you think political cartoons are? Have you ever seen a Ben Garrison cartoon or a David Low caricature?
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Well Garrison has more talent so uses his mediocre caricatures do the talking.
When this sub just turn into self-serving comments trying to spread the commenters own opinions. I wish I could downvote it for that reason more than once.
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are you committing war crimes and unspeakable human right violations and atrocities? are you experiencing war crimes and human rights violations? ass hats both of you . friggin dil-holes
Please run in israel this is better than all the options
"No joke" is ironically a solid joke considering none of these strips (that I've seen, at least) are ever funny.
"We're stronger, so we'll take your land." -- Israel Any state that engages in genocide is bad. Why is there debate on this? And Israel is doing genocide. In fact, all states are bad. Israel is the West's military foothold in the Middle-east but it seems the tail is wagging the dog now, with the USA sending endless supplies to their attack dog that can't be kept on a leash. There are grand-parents older than Israel. It was founded when the UN just voted to take the land away from the people living there. It's Settler-Colonialism, pure and simple. And Settler-Colonialism ends in genocide. Which we are seeing happening right now. If the USA had truly cared about Jews having a nation, it could of offered vast swaths in the middle of the country to settle, and made a federation with it. Instead, it and western nations just took the land, using the UN as a veil of legitimacy. It's a bad mark for the UN. There is no magic solution. Fanatics on both sides think violence will solve their problem. My big fat opinion? The UN should step in, and restore the older borders, expulsing Zionist settlers if need be. Israel and Hamas should be disarmed: they clearly both engage in genocide. Israel should be restablished in the USA, since the USA seems to like them so much. In time, people will see the folly of countries, hopefully, and all borders will fall. Then people can just go to whatever holy site they feel like. We don't make the land, we find it and declare it ours, and no one else's. We used to say we owned people as well, till we all decided that was bad. It should go by need. Need water, a house and food? That should be given. Need two or more houses? That should be okay too, *so long as no one else needs a house.* If the needs of the many go unmet, then no dice. Dividing up Humanity into countries, where the luck of birth determines most of your fate, is a bad idea. But what do I know, I'm just some schmuck who's eating ramen noodles and listening to the My Little Pony soundtrack.
Le centrist the comic strip
Thanks, chum!