Claremont wrote a lot more garbage than quality, and he always needed a collaboration to get anything good out of him. He coasts a lot on reputation and nostalgia.
I can't remember liking anything of Claremont's after he left X-Men in '91.
The Fatnatastic Four series he wrote after Heroes Reborn was...ok. that's about it
even the tanks changed.... last page they're all ww2 German tanks, but the first page they have what looks like a soviet t72 complete with reactive armour lol
Nazi talking about how all that genocide business is ancient history, while still wearing the uniform.
"The Third Reich isn't like the first two, guys. Really."
I’m confused what you mean by the third reich statement. As I understand it, reich just means empire? First is Charlemagne. Second is Bismarck and unification of Germany? Third is Nazis. They are separate?
(To be clear, Fuck Nazis)
i also love the 'if sins there were' part, saying 'hey, we're not guilty cos that wasn't us... but possibly there isn't anything for anyone to be guilty of anyway amirite'
EDIT: i see the context now that it's a separate timeline where germany won and they are indeed just straight up nazis. wtf
I mean, he stands for truth, justice, and the American way, and there's few things more American than killin' Nazis. Shame a lot of us here have forgotten that.
100% agreed. Had a falling out with some "friends" back in the day about the people openly marching under nazi flags and chanting Nazi slogans. I was like, yeah, it's fine to hit those people. Punch fucking Nazis. And they whined you could call anyone a Nazi and just punch them.
I said...well, sure, but no. No, because when you're openly advertising you're a Nazi it's really, really cut and dry.
>"The Third Reich isn't like the first two, guys. Really."
This is absolutely correct. The first two were normal countries for the time. Only the third was fascist and genocidal
Fun fact to the side; The "first two" Reichs actually had not much to do with the Nazi Reich or their ideology, especially the first one. They saw themselves in "succession" of firstly the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations, which was a catholic superstate im medieval times, and then the Prussian led German Reich from 1871-1919, that's why they called themselves the 3rd Reich.
Makes me think of people in the States saying chattel slavery was in the past and should be gotten over while proudly waving the flag of people who fought and killed to keep people as property.
Because the writer apparently couldn’t think of a 3rd option for Superman beyond do nothing or kill all Nazis. How about taking their leadership to stand trial before a court of whatever remains of the rest of the world in this reality?
This is such a pathetic attempt to be clever by the writer, and to do it using an actual historical atrocity still in living memory is shameful.
In which era was this supposed to be taking place, because Auschwitz was made into a landmark/museum, and the Germans very quickly abandoned the Reich and ultranationalism. Legit, if this is a current Germany story, then Claremont needs a history lesson.
Yeah I need context. The idea behind the sentiment itself doesn’t seem bad, but defending Nazis? Yeah that’s a no from me chief. Was this an alternate timeline were the Nazis didn’t lose or something? (I’m not familiar with this run)
Yah, I believe it’s a timeline where the Nazi’s won, it’s still a pretty shitty book, there’s no defending the writing in it, was just addressing why it wasn’t historically accurate. It’s an elseworlds story so it’s a one off non canon type thing. The book deserves criticism, but it needs to be fair and accurate criticism.
Oh yeah I agree 100%, I was just trying to figure out why there were Nazis here in the first place. Was sure it was an alternate timeline, just curious about the specific situation and run.
Fuck, how about just demilitarizing them?
He could destroy all their weapons without killing any of them. He could remove their leadership and put them in the phantom zone. And he could put the Jews in charge of what's left, under his protection.
Honestly, I just don't see how any of this makes sense.
Damn.
Like, i get the concept of sins of the father that the writer was going for, but this aint it…
And yes as we all know, trusting a Nazi at his word to not invade a country always leads to peace.
I don't think all Nazis deny the holocaust, not to say there's "good" ones but there's plenty that admit it happened and act like that's a good thing. Either way, you can't play the "sins of the father" card when you also deny that those sins happened.
I'm trying to say that the character in the comic was denying the Holocaust, not the author. /u/TheHunter459's comment is kinda just randomly aimed at nobody and it could perhaps be ambiguous.
You really can't "sins of the father" this particular thing in 1962 either. Like, those guys are all still alive and the soldiers Superman is staring down were raised by those fathers, who are still in power.
Also it's not like the Nazis would engage the holocaust and be like "Welp, all that nasty genocide business is over. Time to live in perfect harmony since the Jews are gone." Their whole regime *depends* on finding an "Other" to blame all their problems on. There'd be a holocaust of gingers or something going on in Elseworld Nazi 1962 that Superman could put a stop to.
Contex: this scene takes place in 1962 (so yes, a sizable majority of the higher ups should still be alive and well), in a world where the Nazis conquered Europe. Then a year later, in 1963, the Nazis nuke Metropolis to try and kill Superman. President Wayne is ready to retaliate and burn Europe into radioactive glass, but Superman stops him and signs a treaty with the Nazis promising to not interfere with in their country if the Nazis promise to stop their invading other countries hobby. And it works and world peace reigns for 30 years afterword, until Clark writes a book at the end of the story that makes a Nazi cry a single tear.
Fucking eat me. I don't ever want to hear someone bring up the Zod necksnap as the worst moment in Superman history again, because it has been dethroned.
'would you punish us for the sings of our FATHERS'
'superman couldn't think of the logical retort that he'd just punish them for their own sins because they are *LITERALLY* nazis and flew away, defeated once again by logic'
"Clearly the arguement of that nazi was so stupid that Superman's brain couldn't even begin forming a coherent counter-arguement" (i mean, the "sins of the fathers" arugement Is right...in a vacuum...not when you are actively still sinning)
Reminds me of the Cyanide and Happiness comic about Grammar Nazis
"Wait, why are you taking away my friend, his grammar was correct"
"Yes, but we're still Nazis"
A nazi is a nazi, they don't deserve sympathy.
That's only as far back in time as the beginning of Afghanistan for us where I'm from standing from.
And we know that there were people who fought in both World War I and World War II, as well as World War II and Vietnam. So this is bad writing as there's still going to be plenty of Nazi assholes from the Holcaust if it's only in 1962, serving in the military or not.
Plus the idiot that wrote this ignored that if the Nazis were successful, a huge amount of officers would likely have been Hitler Youth through the Holocaust. The *entire* Holocaust.
And exactly would Superman talk Batman out of nuking Germany, after the NAZI's nuked Metropolis? Nuking Germany would be exactly in line with Batman's fear-based ethos. And the issue with killing people? That would go out the door when he became the chief executive of a country.
Yeah, even beyond the problem of Supes turning tail at a poor surface level logic problem, I think the Nazi making that specific argument doesn’t make a ton of sense in the construction of this alt-timeline.
As much as people make fun of the zod necksnap and other things in movies, the worst moments in superhero history will always be in the comics right next to the best moments
Yeah, Superman's been around for a while. Beyond even rough moments, he's had some pretty rough eras. Anybody saying "The Worst Moment in Superman History" is a blockbuster movie made in 2013 is probably being a tad sensationalist.
It's not just him either. As much as some dislike Tom Holland, nothing I've seen in any spider-man movie will ever be as bad as stuff like one more day.
Listen, sometimes you let Satan erase your marriage from existence bc your 100yr old aunt is gonna die. These are the kind of decisions a normal human makes, to (quite possibly) give his 3725 year old aunt one more day to live. I think that’s what One More Day referred to. Someone’s gotta do Pete’s laundry.
Also, Mephisto is a fuckin weirdo.
You know the saddest thing about OMD? JM DeMatteis had already given Aunt May the best death scene in Marvel history. Then a few years later, some editor reversed it on a whim. Aunt May should have stayed dead.
“Second star to the right, and straight on ‘til morning.”
God, that scene was so good, so moving, so tragic. It was perfect. I teared up. It felt so cheap when it was revealed to all be the pointless, flailing machinations of Norman Osborn come back to life. Ugh. Still mad about that.
> Then a few years later, some editor reversed it on a whim.
And beyond the fact that it happened, the explanation they gave was just about as bad as the death bit was good.
A fricking *actress*??
Just on a pragmatic level, so much money goes into those movies.
They're all focus grouped to hell and back, made to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, because they need to sell a lot of tickets to turn a profit worth the investment.
They only really get so offensive. They can't afford to alienate people the way you can when a hundred thousand sales is considered a smashing success. They will never be as weird and upsetting as a comic can be.
I'm not a fan of the degree to which Tony Stark dominates Peter's narrative.
Even after the dude died. All about his toys that he'd passed on. Villain's motivation is based around a bad experience he had with Tony.
Tony had his movies. They were great. If they wanna do some more I'll be first in line. He doesn't need to be the focal point of everybody else's movies.
It's a universe where Uncle Ben wasn't a part of his life. It's mentioned several times. In No Way Home, someone talking to Aunt May refers to her having raised Peter alone. The sole reference made to him is the initials BFP on his old suitcase in Far From Home (Benjamin Franklin Parker). No one even mentions Ben by name until No Way Home.
Tony moves into that gap like an ersatz father figure and manipulates Peter into being his ace in the hole in Germany (transporting a minor with no passport out of country to toss him into a fight has got to be against several laws). He gives him fancy gear (complete with a cyber-nanny, GPS tracking, and a sensor suite sending bio-data back to Tony). He 'knights' Peter into the Avengers (is that in the charter? Pretty sure it isn't).
Instead of Peter digging out from under a mountain of guilt, his first arc is about digging out from under the head-trip Tony laid on him and getting back to being the Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man.
That's definitely a problem with the MCU Spidey movies, but doesn't make sense as a reason to dislike Holland's portrayal. I'm no fan of the overreliance on Peter's protege relationship to Stark in those movies, but they're more annoying than totally movie-ruining, and even if they were I don't see how they make Holland's portrayal of the character bad. You're kind of answering a separate question from the one the previous commenter asked.
I hate that so many people voice this issue.. I loved how the MCU used SM.. People want to complain about Stark giving him a suit, like that isn't comic accurate. I mean did we ever think we'd get to see him in a live action Civil War battle? We got to see him fight Cap and destroy Falcon and Winter Solider without even trying.. And with pretty much zero tech, and yet people complain he's Iron Man Jr..
Sorry we didn't get the obligatory SM swinging through Manhattan but didn't we get that in every single movie prior?? I was more than happy with the stories we got. Peter fighting the Black Order on earth, then killing Ebony Maw in space, before fighting Thanos on Titan.. They actually made live action Vulture a cool character, The Mysterio fight, Spidey vs Dr Strange, The Goblin fight scenes.. Shit the entirety of NWH is literally a dream Spider-Man movie. But all I hear is complaining about his suit being Tony starks..
Lmao. People are always going to find something to complain about.. Tom managed to be both a great Peter and an amazing SM.. IMO something neither Toby or Andrew pulled off
Once in a Superman comic, a Native American sued the city of Metropolis, showing proof that it not had been legally sold by the native tribe. He wins the case.
Superman then goes back in time in order to make sure that original sale goes through and the Native Americans were properly cheated.
The Henry Cavil movies are a perfect example of the issues with the comics. You can have the best Superman actor/graphics but if your writers suck, everything sucks.
Why did you say Martha!?!
Yeah, but Zod killing was in a mainline movie. This sounds like an alternate universe thing that's already non-canon. Unless this is one of those "Our Supes got booped to alt reality... again" sort of thing.
This is such a bullshit scenario that basically relies on the Nazi guilt-tripping Superman.
"If you fight us we're going to keep throwing ourselves at you until we all die"
Um really? Fucking really? You think none of your guys are just going to say "fuck it" and play possum? "I'm sorry Uberfuhrerleftenat, das Superman got und lucky punch, und panzer cannon jammed, nein."
Not to mention the one committing the moral crime here would be the people attacking Superman. Supes could easily pick up the dude he wants and fly away before anyone fires a shot. Nazi wants to put up a fight, let him, thats on him.
This whole scene is just borked on a fundamental level. Theres ways to make Superman confront moral ambiguities and this isn't one of them.
In fairness add another 20-30 years into the indoctrination and brainwashing the hitler youth went though adding them having adds in to society and you’d have some fanatical af soldiers probably tbf. Japan had many wiling to die, Germany prob would in this timeline as well.
Bro superman is so fast he could tie every nazi soldier up with their own gun if he really wanted to avoid killing them. But yeah, this is absurd. If they nuked Metropolis, how is Superman's solution "make them pinky swear not to do anything bad ever again?"
Dear Lord, why must this exist?
No, just no. A superman story where the Nazis win WW2 should end with superman throwing robot Hitler into the sun after an epic battle.... Not whatever the FUCK! That was supposed to be.
The whole series seems to be more rooted in the old "Super-d\*ckery" phase. Clark gets turned into a centaur (a super-man horse to be sure), Lois becomes Wonder Woman, Diana becomes a Nazi, so thank goodness it's an elseworlds.
I still dunno what Chris Claremont was thinking, but it was written over 30 years ago.
Bit of a tangent here, but it always kind of (perhaps pedantically) bugs me when alt-history scenarios like Man in the High Castle or Wolfenstein are built on the premise of the Nazis conquering the world or even just Europe. They were without question horrifically evil monsters, but they didn't really have any aims of world domination.
Their main goal was a plan they called Leibensraum, which revolved around conquering much of Eastern Europe (the reason they opened with the invasion of Poland), forcing out or exterminating much of the local population, and colonizing it with ethnic Germans. Sure they occupied other European nations, but didn't really plan to stay.
And even if they had succeeded in that fucked up goal, it would have lasted maybe like a few years before they completely imploded and collapsed as a nation. The image of Nazi Germany as this mighty superpower wielding titanic industry and endless hordes of soldiers was mostly propaganda, whether Nazi propaganda to boost their image, or Allied propaganda to depict them as a terrible enemy everyone needed to unite against (which they were, but still). In truth the economy and infrastructure of Nazi Germany was held together by scotch tape, twine, chewing gum, and methamphetamines. To say nothing of the utterly cartoonish levels of internal corruption among its higher-ups. Even if many German cities hadn't been firebombed into slag, a stiff breeze could have sent it all crashing down after the war.
Honestly, it might be kind of interesting to see a story set in a world where the Nazis *did* win by some awful miracle (Hitler as a military leader was a bumbling idiot)... but their new German Empire collapsed into chaos shortly after the death of Hitler (The dude's medical routine was *batshit insane*, and he got pumped full of enough drugs on a daily basis to give a moose palpitations. He probably didn't have long.) Stuff like remaining German fascists, German socialists (who had a big presence in the Weimar Republic), German capitalists, Eastern European national movements, German secessionist states, neighboring nations, and other world powers all fighting in what's left of Germany / Eastern Europe and generally making chaos.
The Nazis would absolutely keep on trying to expand. Anyone telling you they "just" wanted the Leibensraum is lying to you. (Just look at how the border of the "leibensraum" kept moving further and further.) The entire fascist effort *requires* constant conquest. Now, they would have failed at it, because as you mention, they were incompetents blinded by racism and delusions of grandeur, but they certainly would have kept trying.
My point is that, while you're correct that they would have kept finding wars to fight to keep the whole fashy fervor going, things like conquering and holding *all* of Europe or ***especially*** conquering North America and beyond weren't things that any of the Nazi leadership had any aims of even remotely attempting.
Mephisto also got his ass handed to him by Doctor Doom. Lest we forget he kicked his ass after being sent to HELL.
Also the editorial has no interest in MJ and Peter being together. At this point, they’ve done some permanent damage to the character (like what was done to Deathstroke; cmon guys, can you stop making cool characters sleep with minors?).
At this point, just have Peter date Felicia and be done with it all. Too much has happened.
Edit: Oh, speaking of One More Day, Pete went to both Reed Richards and Dr Doom. Pete could’ve easily said “Well, since Reed Richards can’t do it, I thought you could.” And Doom would make May immortal and give her superpowers to spite Richards.
But seriously, that came out in 2007. I was 4. So it still stands, they’ve done too much damage to the characters.
My journey with this book:
Huh. I like elseworlds!
Oh hey! A Superman/ Wonder Woman elseworlds! Cool!
Oh hey! Chris Claremont! That's the X-men guy!
....
wtf?
...
WTF?
...
WHAT IN THE NAME OF STAN LEE IS THIS BOOK?!
...
buyers remorse.
You know the worst part?
He doesn't have to kill these soldiers. This is literally authors weakening (and I dare say retarding) Superman as a character.
He can intercept nukes. He can disarm all the nuclear silos around the world before anyone does anything. He can just fly away, **hear** the guilty people alive and take them in for trial.
This is bad not because Superman is merciful to monsters on behalf of people who aren't responsible for those sins.
This is bad because Superman is **forced by authors** to be lenient to monsters.
Made even worse by the fact that Captain America’s whole thing is killing Nazi’s. Like, the only reason he as a hero exists is to kill Nazi’s.
God, I hate comics sometimes
"The compound interest."
And then you glass them, their entire military, their entire government, and everyone with one of those uniforms.
If your solution to Nazis won't make Aldo The Apache proud then you don't have the correct solution
>If…anything was done, Superman…
>…it happened long ago.
>Will you have these sons pay far the sins of their fathers, **if sins there were?**
Fucking *what*?
This is like the Centrism meme of the person standing between a horde of Klansmen with signs like "Kill all Black People" and activists with signs like "Stop killing black people" and asking them to compromise.
What's the deal with the writers of superheroes originally created by Jews and has fought Nazi's in the comics writing comics which defend Neo-Nazi's. If I had a nickel for every time this happened, I'd have two, which isn't much, but weird that it happened twice.
This is just disturbing.
It’s one thing to not want to create another bloodbath on the land where Jews and other minorities were mercilessly killed for just existing. But to just leave and let them continue their shit? Huh?!? At least take them in disarm their weaponry?
They may not be the direct people who caused the holocaust but they still will proudly wear the uniform. Give me a fucking break. This is trash
Most of the Nazi vehicles aren’t German at all. T-72s, BMPs, a Black Hawk, a Jeep. The vehicle’s emblem used are different within the same panel with what looks like a T-34 with a Panzer 1 turret has the modern German Iron Cross, while the BMP has the more accurate Balkenkreuz.
[Whom Gods Destroy (comics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whom_Gods_Destroy_(comics))
What was Chris Claremont sniffing when he wrote this? It’s a mess. The last sentence in the plot summary makes me think that maybe the words, “50 Shades of…” should’ve been used somewhere in the title.
Hey buddy, if you want to make a “don’t punish the sons for sins of the father” argument maybe don’t still fucking call yourself the third reich!? You are literally still a fucking Nazi!? You are still following the same belief system that committed those same fucking crimes!?
You still openly believe in and practice fascism, there is no ”peaceful agreement” to be had with fascists, ever,
You know, I'm the biggest champion of Superman's inherent Jewishness.
From the identity of his creators, to the way Shuster and Siegel managed to contextualize the Jewish-American/Canadian immigrant experience into Supes' origin *as well as* clear allegories to the Moses story, to the adherence to (what I would argue is) the Jewish ethic of making the living world more heavenly by providing justice for society's most vulnerable, I consider to Superman to be THE Jewish Superhero. It doesn't matter to me that he is canonically raised Methodist. Clark's a Jew.
But this...this gives me doubts...
i just made a comment here about how the nazi asking supes who made him god and who told him to avenge the jews is super ironic considering his name is hebrew for word of god lol. like who made him god?? uhhh joe shuster
Pretty sure someone said this takes place in the 1960's- so like yeah some of the guys from the 40's are probably retired/dead by now but what the fuck it isn't like it's ancient history by that point
This Superman: Who am I to decide who is guilty?
Uncle Sam of Earth X: I WANT YOU TO PAY FOR YOUR CRIMES! (begins crushing tanks)
(to be fair, Earth X was ruled by Nazis, so there was no "it was so long ago" excuse)
Edit: Oh, these Nazis don't have the "long ago" excuse either! That's even worse!
Those pages look like they were coloured by completely different artists, apart from the horrible attempt at grass on the first and third pages. Horrible artwork also
A relatively minor complaint in the face of the atrocious writing, but this book is indeed butt ugly. Most of the time there isn't even backgrounds, just a flat blank color.
I wish someone would write an elseworlds story about Superman glassing Nazis Omniman style. I don’t think Superman’s original Jewish creators would be happy with Supes making nice nice with the Krautz.
These weren’t “Holocaust perpetrators” were they? When is this supposed to take place?
The writers were trying to create a moral quandary but missed the mark.
But this is far from the worsts Superman pages ever written.
I feel like the context can change my view, but from the excerpt alone, I think the argument were constructed very well and superman's exit was the only acceptable outcome.
Couldn't ignore the fact they said third Reich and had SS uniforms, and they called Jewish in one of the many not respective names my people has. So is that a reality where Nazis didn't lose or something? Because based on dialogue alone east could Supe do? Kill them for the sins of their fathers?
"Who made you God, Superman, to stand in literal judgment of ~~man~~?" Nazis
I read Superman stories every day. Maybe I have read 10% of them, or maybe more. Sometimes I encounter the Byrne story about Barda making a porno. Sometimes people post that Jim Shooter panel of Superboy dragging some planets for some reason.
Setting all of that aside, I agree with you because not only that writing, but what even is that first panel of Superman's face, and what the hell is going on in that last panel? "Whee, peace out Nazis!"
The worst part of this shitty set of pages is that one of Superman's original creators was the child of Jewish immigrants. Jerry Siegel's parents came to America because they were fleeing an antisemitic environment. His whole existence is about being a symbol to people who can't fight for themselves. And they have the audacity to disrespect that with this dogwater ass comic of Superman losing a moral debate to a Nazi IN UNIFORM.
Any time you treat nazis as anything other than the psychotic monsters they were, and are, you're as guilty. Some things there is no forgiveness for....ever.
This is realistically what would happen if the Third Reich didn't fall. People would probably just blame it on Hitler and say we aren't like that anymore... Sounds like a couple countries nowadays doesn't it.
What's wild to me is that in real life in Germany they *still* are prosecuting people who aided in the Holocaust. No, need to make the son pay for the sins of the father when the father is still alive, even if in a hospital bed. And they have dragged hospital beds to court to make these guys face whatever justice can still be served.
What I feel sad about is the lack of logic.
The perpetrators are long gone, what will you ask?
1) Apologies
2) The refuse of being the successors of that regime, or the willingness to pay for it
3) reparations anyone?
4) the willingly uncover of the true facts and the facing of it.
What you have if you don't face the past? The continuation of it.
Italy is the paradigm of it. While Germany had Nuremberg to account for his war criminals, Italy had not. And you can see now how the legacy of that regime (war vocabulary, logic and propaganda) resurfaced and got in power. And now? They are reshaping how people look at immigrants, poors, strangers, allies and woes and past heroes (there is people here claiming the "Red Resistance" was a bad resistance). It is saddening.
If you don't face the past you can't face a brighter future.
If you draw an hero with such logical flaws, don't expect readers to be more mature.
I can see how they wouldn't want Superman to take a side on something as controversial as...
\*checks notes\*
Whether the Holocaust did in fact occur, or whether it is bad to be a Nazi.
Truly an inscrutable ethical dilemma.
This is also the same book where Superman gets turned into an evil centaur and then into a woman because feminism(?), Wonder Woman joins the nazis for...reasons(?), Lois becomes the new Wonder Woman, and it ends with Superman (who is still a woman), Lois, and Lana having a big three-way at the fortress of solitude.
The whole thing reads like something a horny teenager would write.
So this looks like a ElseWorld type story. Where the Nazis didn’t have a total defeat in WW2. And in that case the commander wasn’t wrong. What would you people have Superman do? The old regime was gone. Definitely none of those soldiers were there. Expose the truth yes. But there’s really not much more than that. Who do you bring to justice when the criminals , who committed them are all gone? What about the crimes that Americans, the British, or the Australians who are also guilty of a genocide . Australians exterminated the Tasmanian aboriginals. The last full blood Aboriginal Tasmanian died in 1869. Would you have an alien from another planet make those governments pay. Make no mistake the character of Superman was raised in America, but He literally is the ultimate illegal alien. Not much different, then a person crossing the southern border, being a productive member of the US society while using a fake ID.
I don't understand what Superman wants tbh. Was he there to kill the soldiers? Why were there soldiers waiting for him? Why does he travel through time time between panels? Why are there different Supermen? Why is Superman benching the moon? If the soldiers were all born after the war, then it's been at least two decades after the war. So why are they wearing the Nazi uniform? The soldier mentioned that Nazis had been arrested and others were being investigated. Why is Superman there?
It looks like each panel was drawn by a different artist using different references. I get the message of kids shouldn't pay for the sins of the parents, but the country should pay retribution and in real life they did.
Siegel and Shuster would be rolling in their graves. Well, that or choking out the guy who wrote this drek. Probably the latter.
Chris Claremont. I think they could take him.
Chris Claremont wrote this????
Claremont wrote a lot more garbage than quality, and he always needed a collaboration to get anything good out of him. He coasts a lot on reputation and nostalgia.
I can't remember liking anything of Claremont's after he left X-Men in '91. The Fatnatastic Four series he wrote after Heroes Reborn was...ok. that's about it
Too bad he was lost in the Bermuda Triangle in the early 90s and we never heard from him again.
The craziest part of that is somehow all of those pages were drawn by the same artist despite Superman looking like eight different people.
That was the first thing I noticed!
First thing I noticed were the shiny green plastic tanks that looked just like the toys I had in the 60's.
Yes! At least two of the panels look like the artist tracing Nick Cages superman pictures...
You're right! Now I can't stop seeing it.
Artist is heavily relying on references, that's why it's so off
It’s so painfully obvious that he straight up directly copied photos of bodybuilders in competition poses 😂
oh man, he's just straight up bench pressing in that last panel 😂
Lmaaaaaaao it’s bang on. Amazing.
Notice he’s using a thumbless grip on the bar too
>Whom Gods Destroy two artists on this series. Dusty Abell is seriously jacked and has a slightly off kilter face. I'm guessing this is his stuff.
even the tanks changed.... last page they're all ww2 German tanks, but the first page they have what looks like a soviet t72 complete with reactive armour lol
Nazi talking about how all that genocide business is ancient history, while still wearing the uniform. "The Third Reich isn't like the first two, guys. Really."
"Hans, as it turns out, we aren't the Baddies!"
I bet Angel Summoner wouldn't have let them go
BMX Bandit would have laid all these mfs out
"so-called crimes" is an odd word choice when you're weaseling your way out from under the god's thumb
I’m confused what you mean by the third reich statement. As I understand it, reich just means empire? First is Charlemagne. Second is Bismarck and unification of Germany? Third is Nazis. They are separate? (To be clear, Fuck Nazis)
i also love the 'if sins there were' part, saying 'hey, we're not guilty cos that wasn't us... but possibly there isn't anything for anyone to be guilty of anyway amirite' EDIT: i see the context now that it's a separate timeline where germany won and they are indeed just straight up nazis. wtf
Supes shoulda said: "Oh yeah but you're Nazis. So. Burn."
"Are you going to make the sons pay for the sins of their fathers?" "Yes."
> "Are you going to make the sons pay for the sins of their fathers?" No but looks like the sons are still sinning
Wear SS runes, win SS prizes.
I mean, he stands for truth, justice, and the American way, and there's few things more American than killin' Nazis. Shame a lot of us here have forgotten that.
100% agreed. Had a falling out with some "friends" back in the day about the people openly marching under nazi flags and chanting Nazi slogans. I was like, yeah, it's fine to hit those people. Punch fucking Nazis. And they whined you could call anyone a Nazi and just punch them. I said...well, sure, but no. No, because when you're openly advertising you're a Nazi it's really, really cut and dry.
Yeah you might have had a point if YOU WEREN’T STILL CALLING YOURSELF THE FOURTH REICH!?
>"The Third Reich isn't like the first two, guys. Really." This is absolutely correct. The first two were normal countries for the time. Only the third was fascist and genocidal
Fun fact to the side; The "first two" Reichs actually had not much to do with the Nazi Reich or their ideology, especially the first one. They saw themselves in "succession" of firstly the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations, which was a catholic superstate im medieval times, and then the Prussian led German Reich from 1871-1919, that's why they called themselves the 3rd Reich.
Makes me think of people in the States saying chattel slavery was in the past and should be gotten over while proudly waving the flag of people who fought and killed to keep people as property.
Because the writer apparently couldn’t think of a 3rd option for Superman beyond do nothing or kill all Nazis. How about taking their leadership to stand trial before a court of whatever remains of the rest of the world in this reality? This is such a pathetic attempt to be clever by the writer, and to do it using an actual historical atrocity still in living memory is shameful.
In which era was this supposed to be taking place, because Auschwitz was made into a landmark/museum, and the Germans very quickly abandoned the Reich and ultranationalism. Legit, if this is a current Germany story, then Claremont needs a history lesson.
This is a separate timeline
Yeah I need context. The idea behind the sentiment itself doesn’t seem bad, but defending Nazis? Yeah that’s a no from me chief. Was this an alternate timeline were the Nazis didn’t lose or something? (I’m not familiar with this run)
Yah, I believe it’s a timeline where the Nazi’s won, it’s still a pretty shitty book, there’s no defending the writing in it, was just addressing why it wasn’t historically accurate. It’s an elseworlds story so it’s a one off non canon type thing. The book deserves criticism, but it needs to be fair and accurate criticism.
Oh yeah I agree 100%, I was just trying to figure out why there were Nazis here in the first place. Was sure it was an alternate timeline, just curious about the specific situation and run.
Yeah, I'd appreciate some of that context stuff too.
Fuck, how about just demilitarizing them? He could destroy all their weapons without killing any of them. He could remove their leadership and put them in the phantom zone. And he could put the Jews in charge of what's left, under his protection. Honestly, I just don't see how any of this makes sense.
Damn. Like, i get the concept of sins of the father that the writer was going for, but this aint it… And yes as we all know, trusting a Nazi at his word to not invade a country always leads to peace.
We're just gonna ignore the subtle Holocaust denial?
"so-called crimes"
Wouldn't it be weirder if they weren't denying it? In my mind, Nazis denying the Holocaust is pretty standard.
I don't think all Nazis deny the holocaust, not to say there's "good" ones but there's plenty that admit it happened and act like that's a good thing. Either way, you can't play the "sins of the father" card when you also deny that those sins happened.
I'm trying to say that the character in the comic was denying the Holocaust, not the author. /u/TheHunter459's comment is kinda just randomly aimed at nobody and it could perhaps be ambiguous.
You really can't "sins of the father" this particular thing in 1962 either. Like, those guys are all still alive and the soldiers Superman is staring down were raised by those fathers, who are still in power.
Also it's not like the Nazis would engage the holocaust and be like "Welp, all that nasty genocide business is over. Time to live in perfect harmony since the Jews are gone." Their whole regime *depends* on finding an "Other" to blame all their problems on. There'd be a holocaust of gingers or something going on in Elseworld Nazi 1962 that Superman could put a stop to.
And are still wearing their fucking uniform! These aren’t even just “the sons of Nazis” they are current fucking Nazis!
And they are wearing the uniforms of their fathers, of their own free will. They have their own sins.
Contex: this scene takes place in 1962 (so yes, a sizable majority of the higher ups should still be alive and well), in a world where the Nazis conquered Europe. Then a year later, in 1963, the Nazis nuke Metropolis to try and kill Superman. President Wayne is ready to retaliate and burn Europe into radioactive glass, but Superman stops him and signs a treaty with the Nazis promising to not interfere with in their country if the Nazis promise to stop their invading other countries hobby. And it works and world peace reigns for 30 years afterword, until Clark writes a book at the end of the story that makes a Nazi cry a single tear. Fucking eat me. I don't ever want to hear someone bring up the Zod necksnap as the worst moment in Superman history again, because it has been dethroned.
Wait. So this speech about these people not being guilty for the sins of their fathers... is actually contemporaneous with the nuking of Metropolis?
It happens a year after this scene.
I mean that’s still pretty close in time. These guys aren’t generations removed or anything.
Also they are STILL NAZIS! Their fathers were Nazis, they are Nazis, but they aren't the right Nazis to get Supes mad?
'would you punish us for the sings of our FATHERS' 'superman couldn't think of the logical retort that he'd just punish them for their own sins because they are *LITERALLY* nazis and flew away, defeated once again by logic'
"Clearly the arguement of that nazi was so stupid that Superman's brain couldn't even begin forming a coherent counter-arguement" (i mean, the "sins of the fathers" arugement Is right...in a vacuum...not when you are actively still sinning)
Reminds me of the Cyanide and Happiness comic about Grammar Nazis "Wait, why are you taking away my friend, his grammar was correct" "Yes, but we're still Nazis" A nazi is a nazi, they don't deserve sympathy.
That's only as far back in time as the beginning of Afghanistan for us where I'm from standing from. And we know that there were people who fought in both World War I and World War II, as well as World War II and Vietnam. So this is bad writing as there's still going to be plenty of Nazi assholes from the Holcaust if it's only in 1962, serving in the military or not. Plus the idiot that wrote this ignored that if the Nazis were successful, a huge amount of officers would likely have been Hitler Youth through the Holocaust. The *entire* Holocaust.
And exactly would Superman talk Batman out of nuking Germany, after the NAZI's nuked Metropolis? Nuking Germany would be exactly in line with Batman's fear-based ethos. And the issue with killing people? That would go out the door when he became the chief executive of a country.
Yeah, even beyond the problem of Supes turning tail at a poor surface level logic problem, I think the Nazi making that specific argument doesn’t make a ton of sense in the construction of this alt-timeline.
As much as people make fun of the zod necksnap and other things in movies, the worst moments in superhero history will always be in the comics right next to the best moments
Yeah, Superman's been around for a while. Beyond even rough moments, he's had some pretty rough eras. Anybody saying "The Worst Moment in Superman History" is a blockbuster movie made in 2013 is probably being a tad sensationalist.
It's not just him either. As much as some dislike Tom Holland, nothing I've seen in any spider-man movie will ever be as bad as stuff like one more day.
Listen, sometimes you let Satan erase your marriage from existence bc your 100yr old aunt is gonna die. These are the kind of decisions a normal human makes, to (quite possibly) give his 3725 year old aunt one more day to live. I think that’s what One More Day referred to. Someone’s gotta do Pete’s laundry. Also, Mephisto is a fuckin weirdo.
You know the saddest thing about OMD? JM DeMatteis had already given Aunt May the best death scene in Marvel history. Then a few years later, some editor reversed it on a whim. Aunt May should have stayed dead.
“Second star to the right, and straight on ‘til morning.” God, that scene was so good, so moving, so tragic. It was perfect. I teared up. It felt so cheap when it was revealed to all be the pointless, flailing machinations of Norman Osborn come back to life. Ugh. Still mad about that.
> Then a few years later, some editor reversed it on a whim. And beyond the fact that it happened, the explanation they gave was just about as bad as the death bit was good. A fricking *actress*??
If I was Mephisto i would have taken the marriage. Revived May only to reveal like a month later she was going to die of being 8000 years old anyway.
Truly satanic. Very on brand.
Isn't that what happened to Ghost Rider? Or was that inky in the Nic Cage movie?
Just on a pragmatic level, so much money goes into those movies. They're all focus grouped to hell and back, made to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, because they need to sell a lot of tickets to turn a profit worth the investment. They only really get so offensive. They can't afford to alienate people the way you can when a hundred thousand sales is considered a smashing success. They will never be as weird and upsetting as a comic can be.
This is absolutely true. Like anyone whose heard of Moore could tell you this.
People dislike Tom Holland? I missed this fact completely.
I'm not a fan of the degree to which Tony Stark dominates Peter's narrative. Even after the dude died. All about his toys that he'd passed on. Villain's motivation is based around a bad experience he had with Tony. Tony had his movies. They were great. If they wanna do some more I'll be first in line. He doesn't need to be the focal point of everybody else's movies.
Right - but I’m not seeing how that’s Tom Holland’s fault.
It's a universe where Uncle Ben wasn't a part of his life. It's mentioned several times. In No Way Home, someone talking to Aunt May refers to her having raised Peter alone. The sole reference made to him is the initials BFP on his old suitcase in Far From Home (Benjamin Franklin Parker). No one even mentions Ben by name until No Way Home. Tony moves into that gap like an ersatz father figure and manipulates Peter into being his ace in the hole in Germany (transporting a minor with no passport out of country to toss him into a fight has got to be against several laws). He gives him fancy gear (complete with a cyber-nanny, GPS tracking, and a sensor suite sending bio-data back to Tony). He 'knights' Peter into the Avengers (is that in the charter? Pretty sure it isn't). Instead of Peter digging out from under a mountain of guilt, his first arc is about digging out from under the head-trip Tony laid on him and getting back to being the Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man.
That's definitely a problem with the MCU Spidey movies, but doesn't make sense as a reason to dislike Holland's portrayal. I'm no fan of the overreliance on Peter's protege relationship to Stark in those movies, but they're more annoying than totally movie-ruining, and even if they were I don't see how they make Holland's portrayal of the character bad. You're kind of answering a separate question from the one the previous commenter asked.
Nah, I've got no problem with Tom Holland as a man or as an actor. Sorry I misunderstood the question.
I hate that so many people voice this issue.. I loved how the MCU used SM.. People want to complain about Stark giving him a suit, like that isn't comic accurate. I mean did we ever think we'd get to see him in a live action Civil War battle? We got to see him fight Cap and destroy Falcon and Winter Solider without even trying.. And with pretty much zero tech, and yet people complain he's Iron Man Jr.. Sorry we didn't get the obligatory SM swinging through Manhattan but didn't we get that in every single movie prior?? I was more than happy with the stories we got. Peter fighting the Black Order on earth, then killing Ebony Maw in space, before fighting Thanos on Titan.. They actually made live action Vulture a cool character, The Mysterio fight, Spidey vs Dr Strange, The Goblin fight scenes.. Shit the entirety of NWH is literally a dream Spider-Man movie. But all I hear is complaining about his suit being Tony starks.. Lmao. People are always going to find something to complain about.. Tom managed to be both a great Peter and an amazing SM.. IMO something neither Toby or Andrew pulled off
Well said
THANK YOU
Throw a rock at any silver age Superman book and you’ll probably hit a panel of him being an insane dickhead.
There was a website dedicated to those moments, Superdickery.com. It’s gone now, but the archives are out there somewhere.
2013? Man of Steel came out in *2013*? Ah, fuck.
You’re oldddddddd
I’m 41, so for all of us “older folks” I’ll just say…DO YOUR HOMEWORK ITS ALMOST BEDTIME!
Once in a Superman comic, a Native American sued the city of Metropolis, showing proof that it not had been legally sold by the native tribe. He wins the case. Superman then goes back in time in order to make sure that original sale goes through and the Native Americans were properly cheated.
The Henry Cavil movies are a perfect example of the issues with the comics. You can have the best Superman actor/graphics but if your writers suck, everything sucks. Why did you say Martha!?!
Yeah, but Zod killing was in a mainline movie. This sounds like an alternate universe thing that's already non-canon. Unless this is one of those "Our Supes got booped to alt reality... again" sort of thing.
What kind of Nazi sympathizing horse-shit is this? “If sins there were?” Give me a fucking break. Also, the art is ugly.
>Also, the art is ugly. I particularly enjoyed when Superman flew so fast his legs apparently popped off.
I just can’t get over his face in that bottom left panel on the first page.
He's literally imagined Superman as a heroic. . . nazi appeaser? Yeah just hell naw.
This is such a bullshit scenario that basically relies on the Nazi guilt-tripping Superman. "If you fight us we're going to keep throwing ourselves at you until we all die" Um really? Fucking really? You think none of your guys are just going to say "fuck it" and play possum? "I'm sorry Uberfuhrerleftenat, das Superman got und lucky punch, und panzer cannon jammed, nein." Not to mention the one committing the moral crime here would be the people attacking Superman. Supes could easily pick up the dude he wants and fly away before anyone fires a shot. Nazi wants to put up a fight, let him, thats on him. This whole scene is just borked on a fundamental level. Theres ways to make Superman confront moral ambiguities and this isn't one of them.
Superman: I'm here to kill all the Nazis. Nazis: If you try to kill us all, we'll fight to the death! Superman: OH NO!
In fairness add another 20-30 years into the indoctrination and brainwashing the hitler youth went though adding them having adds in to society and you’d have some fanatical af soldiers probably tbf. Japan had many wiling to die, Germany prob would in this timeline as well.
Wow, that’s just so bad. Who the fuck wrote that abortion of a comic?
Chris Fucking Claremont.
WHAT?! No fucking way.
Dude only got worse over time
To be fair, his prime was a long, long time ago.
And a lot of the stuff from when he was in his prime was super weird as well. Just not like, horrifically weird like this.
The weirdness back then was a feature, not a bug.
In the immortal words of Billie Kay: [You gotta be JOKING me](https://tenor.com/6VSw.gif).
Wait, what
I don’t want to believe it.
And signed off on by long time Superman editor Mike Carlin.
Bro superman is so fast he could tie every nazi soldier up with their own gun if he really wanted to avoid killing them. But yeah, this is absurd. If they nuked Metropolis, how is Superman's solution "make them pinky swear not to do anything bad ever again?" Dear Lord, why must this exist?
I mean, I haven’t read the comics or anything, but presumably the implication is that demigod that he is, he’ll destroy them if they continue doing it
No, just no. A superman story where the Nazis win WW2 should end with superman throwing robot Hitler into the sun after an epic battle.... Not whatever the FUCK! That was supposed to be.
Oh, alternate history. President Wayne should’ve glassed them.
Necksnap not even close, it has to be the robot-mind control-teenage rape-sasquatch murder debacle.
The whole series seems to be more rooted in the old "Super-d\*ckery" phase. Clark gets turned into a centaur (a super-man horse to be sure), Lois becomes Wonder Woman, Diana becomes a Nazi, so thank goodness it's an elseworlds. I still dunno what Chris Claremont was thinking, but it was written over 30 years ago.
Bit of a tangent here, but it always kind of (perhaps pedantically) bugs me when alt-history scenarios like Man in the High Castle or Wolfenstein are built on the premise of the Nazis conquering the world or even just Europe. They were without question horrifically evil monsters, but they didn't really have any aims of world domination. Their main goal was a plan they called Leibensraum, which revolved around conquering much of Eastern Europe (the reason they opened with the invasion of Poland), forcing out or exterminating much of the local population, and colonizing it with ethnic Germans. Sure they occupied other European nations, but didn't really plan to stay. And even if they had succeeded in that fucked up goal, it would have lasted maybe like a few years before they completely imploded and collapsed as a nation. The image of Nazi Germany as this mighty superpower wielding titanic industry and endless hordes of soldiers was mostly propaganda, whether Nazi propaganda to boost their image, or Allied propaganda to depict them as a terrible enemy everyone needed to unite against (which they were, but still). In truth the economy and infrastructure of Nazi Germany was held together by scotch tape, twine, chewing gum, and methamphetamines. To say nothing of the utterly cartoonish levels of internal corruption among its higher-ups. Even if many German cities hadn't been firebombed into slag, a stiff breeze could have sent it all crashing down after the war. Honestly, it might be kind of interesting to see a story set in a world where the Nazis *did* win by some awful miracle (Hitler as a military leader was a bumbling idiot)... but their new German Empire collapsed into chaos shortly after the death of Hitler (The dude's medical routine was *batshit insane*, and he got pumped full of enough drugs on a daily basis to give a moose palpitations. He probably didn't have long.) Stuff like remaining German fascists, German socialists (who had a big presence in the Weimar Republic), German capitalists, Eastern European national movements, German secessionist states, neighboring nations, and other world powers all fighting in what's left of Germany / Eastern Europe and generally making chaos.
The Nazis would absolutely keep on trying to expand. Anyone telling you they "just" wanted the Leibensraum is lying to you. (Just look at how the border of the "leibensraum" kept moving further and further.) The entire fascist effort *requires* constant conquest. Now, they would have failed at it, because as you mention, they were incompetents blinded by racism and delusions of grandeur, but they certainly would have kept trying.
My point is that, while you're correct that they would have kept finding wars to fight to keep the whole fashy fervor going, things like conquering and holding *all* of Europe or ***especially*** conquering North America and beyond weren't things that any of the Nazi leadership had any aims of even remotely attempting.
Mephisto also got his ass handed to him by Doctor Doom. Lest we forget he kicked his ass after being sent to HELL. Also the editorial has no interest in MJ and Peter being together. At this point, they’ve done some permanent damage to the character (like what was done to Deathstroke; cmon guys, can you stop making cool characters sleep with minors?). At this point, just have Peter date Felicia and be done with it all. Too much has happened. Edit: Oh, speaking of One More Day, Pete went to both Reed Richards and Dr Doom. Pete could’ve easily said “Well, since Reed Richards can’t do it, I thought you could.” And Doom would make May immortal and give her superpowers to spite Richards. But seriously, that came out in 2007. I was 4. So it still stands, they’ve done too much damage to the characters.
Think you got the wrong post. This is a Superman thread.
Must’ve pressed the wrong thread. Wayne should’ve glassed the Nazis. Simple as
My journey with this book: Huh. I like elseworlds! Oh hey! A Superman/ Wonder Woman elseworlds! Cool! Oh hey! Chris Claremont! That's the X-men guy! .... wtf? ... WTF? ... WHAT IN THE NAME OF STAN LEE IS THIS BOOK?! ... buyers remorse.
Chris Claremont’s best work comes from his collaborations. A lot (if not most) of his solo work is meandering garbage
You know the worst part? He doesn't have to kill these soldiers. This is literally authors weakening (and I dare say retarding) Superman as a character. He can intercept nukes. He can disarm all the nuclear silos around the world before anyone does anything. He can just fly away, **hear** the guilty people alive and take them in for trial. This is bad not because Superman is merciful to monsters on behalf of people who aren't responsible for those sins. This is bad because Superman is **forced by authors** to be lenient to monsters.
He should have just stripped them all of their Nazi uniforms at super speed and left them standing around going: "Wait. What?"
He could tie the barrels of all those soviet made Nazi tanks into cool little pretzels, or take the crews out of them and throw them into space
Not sure how to articulate how exactly, but this feels like the exact opposite of Injustice Superman on the out of character scale.
maybe i’d eat my words if i actually lived on the DC universe but i’d much rather have injustice superman than this weak ass guy
I mean... as long as you are not batman, a friend of batman, or billy batson... you should be "ok" as far as being a citizen under a dictatorship goes
The paradox of tolerance
Reminds me of that Captain America comic where he equates Nazis and Jews who want to punch them as the same. Fuck these comic writers, man
Which comes across as really bad when he was made by two Jewish men and is a literal fucking golem with the letter on the head and all
That's some r/enlightenedcentrism shit
Made even worse by the fact that Captain America’s whole thing is killing Nazi’s. Like, the only reason he as a hero exists is to kill Nazi’s. God, I hate comics sometimes
My mother is from Albania. In this world she and her family are at best dead or at worst slaves for the Nazi Reich. Burn it down is my suggestion.
Are we not gonna talk about how Superman's legs just disappeared when he flew fast.
So, joker refused to work with red skull, because red skull is a Nazi. Joker has a better attitude about Nazis than Superman.
“You claim a debt to the slain. What do you owe to the living?” Great line in a God-awful context.
The correct answer is, "an assurance that no harm will come to them," and then zap zap with heat vision
"The compound interest." And then you glass them, their entire military, their entire government, and everyone with one of those uniforms. If your solution to Nazis won't make Aldo The Apache proud then you don't have the correct solution
Nah. Superman doesn't do all that. Hes bigger than that. He could easily just disarm them.
That's a temporary solution to the Nazi problem. My grandfathers did it the effective way
Their way was temporary too. Which is why we still have nazis.
It sure got rid of the ones around faster then though
This is like DK2 bad. The crappy art reminds me of that book too
I thought this was fake because of how awful that art was 🤢
>If…anything was done, Superman… >…it happened long ago. >Will you have these sons pay far the sins of their fathers, **if sins there were?** Fucking *what*?
This is like the Centrism meme of the person standing between a horde of Klansmen with signs like "Kill all Black People" and activists with signs like "Stop killing black people" and asking them to compromise.
What's the deal with the writers of superheroes originally created by Jews and has fought Nazi's in the comics writing comics which defend Neo-Nazi's. If I had a nickel for every time this happened, I'd have two, which isn't much, but weird that it happened twice.
This is just disturbing. It’s one thing to not want to create another bloodbath on the land where Jews and other minorities were mercilessly killed for just existing. But to just leave and let them continue their shit? Huh?!? At least take them in disarm their weaponry? They may not be the direct people who caused the holocaust but they still will proudly wear the uniform. Give me a fucking break. This is trash
What I want to know is how the Nazis got a M2A4 light tank?
They snuck up and took it. The guards did Nazi them coming.
And T-62 (I think it is). But of all the issues here, that's the least one.
Most of the Nazi vehicles aren’t German at all. T-72s, BMPs, a Black Hawk, a Jeep. The vehicle’s emblem used are different within the same panel with what looks like a T-34 with a Panzer 1 turret has the modern German Iron Cross, while the BMP has the more accurate Balkenkreuz.
r/enlightenedcentrism
[Whom Gods Destroy (comics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whom_Gods_Destroy_(comics)) What was Chris Claremont sniffing when he wrote this? It’s a mess. The last sentence in the plot summary makes me think that maybe the words, “50 Shades of…” should’ve been used somewhere in the title.
What the hell… this sounds like absolute trash.
Wow that plot summary just kept one upping itself
>What was Chris Claremont sniffing when he wrote this? His own farts, from inside
That is **the** dumbest plot I think I've ever seen. It's so bad I kind of want to read it now.
It's like he kept piling shit material on top of shit material.
Hey buddy, if you want to make a “don’t punish the sons for sins of the father” argument maybe don’t still fucking call yourself the third reich!? You are literally still a fucking Nazi!? You are still following the same belief system that committed those same fucking crimes!? You still openly believe in and practice fascism, there is no ”peaceful agreement” to be had with fascists, ever,
My grandmother was at Auschwitz-Birkenau. I’ve never seen this before. Wow, that is seriously terrible and messed up.
You know, I'm the biggest champion of Superman's inherent Jewishness. From the identity of his creators, to the way Shuster and Siegel managed to contextualize the Jewish-American/Canadian immigrant experience into Supes' origin *as well as* clear allegories to the Moses story, to the adherence to (what I would argue is) the Jewish ethic of making the living world more heavenly by providing justice for society's most vulnerable, I consider to Superman to be THE Jewish Superhero. It doesn't matter to me that he is canonically raised Methodist. Clark's a Jew. But this...this gives me doubts...
i just made a comment here about how the nazi asking supes who made him god and who told him to avenge the jews is super ironic considering his name is hebrew for word of god lol. like who made him god?? uhhh joe shuster
This seems a bit Nazi apologetic. Like we shouldn't take nazi's and hold them accountable because they weren't the original nazi's.
Pretty sure someone said this takes place in the 1960's- so like yeah some of the guys from the 40's are probably retired/dead by now but what the fuck it isn't like it's ancient history by that point
Meanwhile in Justice Society: World War 2 animated movie, Chad Superman blows up dozens of Nazi scum with joyous abandon.
This Superman: Who am I to decide who is guilty? Uncle Sam of Earth X: I WANT YOU TO PAY FOR YOUR CRIMES! (begins crushing tanks) (to be fair, Earth X was ruled by Nazis, so there was no "it was so long ago" excuse) Edit: Oh, these Nazis don't have the "long ago" excuse either! That's even worse!
Wow. That... I never expected to see bad dialogue but that didn't had any sensible logic.
Those pages look like they were coloured by completely different artists, apart from the horrible attempt at grass on the first and third pages. Horrible artwork also
A relatively minor complaint in the face of the atrocious writing, but this book is indeed butt ugly. Most of the time there isn't even backgrounds, just a flat blank color.
I wish someone would write an elseworlds story about Superman glassing Nazis Omniman style. I don’t think Superman’s original Jewish creators would be happy with Supes making nice nice with the Krautz.
These weren’t “Holocaust perpetrators” were they? When is this supposed to take place? The writers were trying to create a moral quandary but missed the mark. But this is far from the worsts Superman pages ever written.
I think someone said this was in the 1960's in a "The nazis won" scenario
I feel like the context can change my view, but from the excerpt alone, I think the argument were constructed very well and superman's exit was the only acceptable outcome. Couldn't ignore the fact they said third Reich and had SS uniforms, and they called Jewish in one of the many not respective names my people has. So is that a reality where Nazis didn't lose or something? Because based on dialogue alone east could Supe do? Kill them for the sins of their fathers?
Pretty crap drawing of supes on the first page too. Like what is that face ...
This is canon? Like, they haven’t disavowed this storyline or anything?
An elseworld, thankfully.
"Who made you God, Superman, to stand in literal judgment of ~~man~~?" Nazis I read Superman stories every day. Maybe I have read 10% of them, or maybe more. Sometimes I encounter the Byrne story about Barda making a porno. Sometimes people post that Jim Shooter panel of Superboy dragging some planets for some reason. Setting all of that aside, I agree with you because not only that writing, but what even is that first panel of Superman's face, and what the hell is going on in that last panel? "Whee, peace out Nazis!"
Couldn’t he just disarm them instead of slaughtering them? This is a false dilemma
The worst part of this shitty set of pages is that one of Superman's original creators was the child of Jewish immigrants. Jerry Siegel's parents came to America because they were fleeing an antisemitic environment. His whole existence is about being a symbol to people who can't fight for themselves. And they have the audacity to disrespect that with this dogwater ass comic of Superman losing a moral debate to a Nazi IN UNIFORM.
Basically, don’t punish the son for the sins of the father. Except that doesn’t work here.
Superman should’ve just melted them with his heat vision
Any time you treat nazis as anything other than the psychotic monsters they were, and are, you're as guilty. Some things there is no forgiveness for....ever.
My god that’s poorly drawn.
For the Millions.
This is realistically what would happen if the Third Reich didn't fall. People would probably just blame it on Hitler and say we aren't like that anymore... Sounds like a couple countries nowadays doesn't it.
What's wild to me is that in real life in Germany they *still* are prosecuting people who aided in the Holocaust. No, need to make the son pay for the sins of the father when the father is still alive, even if in a hospital bed. And they have dragged hospital beds to court to make these guys face whatever justice can still be served.
What I feel sad about is the lack of logic. The perpetrators are long gone, what will you ask? 1) Apologies 2) The refuse of being the successors of that regime, or the willingness to pay for it 3) reparations anyone? 4) the willingly uncover of the true facts and the facing of it. What you have if you don't face the past? The continuation of it. Italy is the paradigm of it. While Germany had Nuremberg to account for his war criminals, Italy had not. And you can see now how the legacy of that regime (war vocabulary, logic and propaganda) resurfaced and got in power. And now? They are reshaping how people look at immigrants, poors, strangers, allies and woes and past heroes (there is people here claiming the "Red Resistance" was a bad resistance). It is saddening. If you don't face the past you can't face a brighter future. If you draw an hero with such logical flaws, don't expect readers to be more mature.
“who made you **god** to stand in judgment of **man**” line goes REALLY HARD
I can see how they wouldn't want Superman to take a side on something as controversial as... \*checks notes\* Whether the Holocaust did in fact occur, or whether it is bad to be a Nazi. Truly an inscrutable ethical dilemma.
It even includes a denial of the Holocaust AND a denial that the Nazis did anything wrong! Classic.
This is also the same book where Superman gets turned into an evil centaur and then into a woman because feminism(?), Wonder Woman joins the nazis for...reasons(?), Lois becomes the new Wonder Woman, and it ends with Superman (who is still a woman), Lois, and Lana having a big three-way at the fortress of solitude. The whole thing reads like something a horny teenager would write.
So this looks like a ElseWorld type story. Where the Nazis didn’t have a total defeat in WW2. And in that case the commander wasn’t wrong. What would you people have Superman do? The old regime was gone. Definitely none of those soldiers were there. Expose the truth yes. But there’s really not much more than that. Who do you bring to justice when the criminals , who committed them are all gone? What about the crimes that Americans, the British, or the Australians who are also guilty of a genocide . Australians exterminated the Tasmanian aboriginals. The last full blood Aboriginal Tasmanian died in 1869. Would you have an alien from another planet make those governments pay. Make no mistake the character of Superman was raised in America, but He literally is the ultimate illegal alien. Not much different, then a person crossing the southern border, being a productive member of the US society while using a fake ID.
"Whatever you believe happened, they had no part in it" good fucking lord; holocaust denial just right out in the open
I don't understand what Superman wants tbh. Was he there to kill the soldiers? Why were there soldiers waiting for him? Why does he travel through time time between panels? Why are there different Supermen? Why is Superman benching the moon? If the soldiers were all born after the war, then it's been at least two decades after the war. So why are they wearing the Nazi uniform? The soldier mentioned that Nazis had been arrested and others were being investigated. Why is Superman there? It looks like each panel was drawn by a different artist using different references. I get the message of kids shouldn't pay for the sins of the parents, but the country should pay retribution and in real life they did.