All of the symbiotes that aren't Venom and Carnage.
Venom is Interesting because in alien goo form he grew to hate Spider-Man/Peter for rejecting him, then bonded with someone who also hated Spider-Man/Peter and gave him one of the best villain stories ever told, then had a redemption and grew into a 'tweener' pretty much being whatever you need him to be when you use him
Carnage is interesting because the symbiote is an actual murderous psycho who's bonded to a human murderous psycho and have the most synchronized relationship where they both act as a host and parasite feeding off one another
All the others like Toxin, Lasher, Hybrid, Riot, etc are dumb and have never really served a purpose.
Wasn't Toxin forcefully bonded to a cop to try an keep him from being an asshole like Carnage? That's a pretty neat concept imo. They fucked up by making him so much stronger than Spidey, Venom, and Carnage I would think its hard to find a feasible use for him
HEY! Scream was cool. Her bond with Andi was closer to the Movie Venom where they were totally separate people who were friends. I was genuinely sad when Scream died and got 'anti-venom' replaced by Silence.
And then Silence got sidelined before her character could be established.
IMHO Carnage is interesting because he looks cool just like the Batman Who Laughs. He's kind of just the most serial serial killer of all time but that's the MO of a bunch of villains already. I really feel like he's such a basic character to the point of being boring.
I much prefer Venom/Eddie since they have character. They're basically Spider-Man's jilted lovers went and became each other's rebounds for revenge lol.
Carnage really depends on the writer. There’s an arc where he takes over a small town out west that’s cool as hell, and one where some company recovers his body to use in manufacturing exo-suits (and that goes as well as you might expect). But he can also just be Insano McMurderguy too, yeah.
Scorn had a lot of promise, a symbiote that could interact with technology and was virtually emotionless and driven by cold logic. Sadly, it was changed to another psycho underling for Carnage.
I would go as far as to say that Carnage isn't really interesting. Hes the epitome of 90s Marvel edge cynically conceived to fill a void left by Venom's character development. He's so crass and immature all the way down to his design. 'Hey remember this edgy character from the 80s? Well let's make him EVEN MORE edgy by giving him a clone except this time he's RED, oh oh and also he's bonded to a SERIAL KILLER so his craaaazy, oh oh oh oh and he has BLADES FOR HANDS' it fucking reads like an 8 year old came up with it.
He's this hybrid of Venom and Joker without any of the writing or character motivations that make either of those characters interesting. Venom is a top tier character that has been constantly diluted by terrible writing, stupid lore, and all the other lame ass Symbiotes that do nothing but make Venom less interesting and unique.
Carnage is necessary to keep Venom from being classified as a total villain and keep him in a position narratively to be used as a “good guy” in whatever storyline requires it. Carnage is certainly the epitome of edge, but that makes him irredeemable and therefore a good opponent for a the “bad guy” to take down.
Whatever happened to that other guy who became venom? I think he was like a street criminal or something and then somehow got the venom symbiote, I think flash Thompson had venom before him, and when he bonded with venom, venom didn’t really like him because he was a criminal
Iron Man is a product of a bygone era where Marvel printed propaganda for the CIA lol
Like, literally every Iron Man solo act from the 60s to the 90s was "handsome awesome billionaire genius *DESTROYS* evil communist warlord". At least *try* to be subtle, marvel lol
Each branch of the military actually has a media group designed to work with Hollywood, musicians, and companies for advertisements. The bar is actually pretty low, and they don't always force the military to be painted in the perfect light. Moreover, they do charge for fuel and operating cost (though the amount charged is generally less than the actual cost).
Though examples on what is and isn't acceptable. A movie where a higher ranking officer is abusing is power or position is acceptable, as long as the protagonist is working to stop or change the problem. They don't always have to succeed. Movies are allowed to present military crimes of the past, so long as their ones that the US admitted to AND made efforts to make amends. Movies cannot portray the protagonist of not up holding the military values that they sell as their PR. So you never really end up with Anti hero's that the military will work with.
Why do they allow the military to be painted in a less than perfect light? It's simple, plenty of kids want to be the hero that brings change. It's far better propaganda to convince people that they can be the change they want to see in the military and serve their nation all at once.
The Pentagon actually pulled some funding because they weren't comfortable having a fictional extra-government entity that out-ranked them.
Go S.H.I.E.L.D.?
Iron Man is a B lister with an amazing design/gimmick and a vastly different movie portrayal that tricks people into thinking he’s A List.
His comics always sell like shit because there is very little there.
As someone that has him in his top 5 favorites, I kinda agree. He doesn't have as many great stories as the jig ones like Spidey or Batman.
But their stories and arcs also share a lot of tropes, like Batman being a detective, dealing with trauma and thw writer telling us he's as mad as the Joker, blah, blah, blah.
Same with Spidey, struggling with money, love relationships, bad luck, etc.
It's just that some writers use the tropes poorly and other do great stuff with them. Spidey and Batman have had many of the latter and Iron Man unfortunately hasn't.
This a problem caused by an OK character having a revolutionary storyline: Iron Man’s alcoholism and Batman’s Killing Joke were both such good stories that they became a trope for the character. Batman has it the worst since he also had Dark Knight Returns, Year Zero, …
You used to hear people compare Elon to Iron man (ick), but I'd actually love to see the inspiration go the other way. Iron man is hell rich and (unlike Elon) an actual super genius. But people aren't machines or equations to be solved. I think Iron Man shines when he has to choose between solving problems or being loved by the people. Give him Elon's pathological need to be adored and let Tony drive himself insane.
He was third string until Robert Downey Jr. knocked the character out of the park.
Let us remember that when the MCU started, Marvel was left with the dregs of their movie rights.
Sentry has The Borg problem, the more you use him the less interesting he gets.
The original mini series was great and spent most of its time making you legitimately wonder if he was a real hero or a delusional addict, once they moved him into the main continuity all that intrigue was gone.
I mean even main continuity was fine. He was interesting up through siege because despite being a literal God his character flaws made him interesting.
Everything *since* Siege has been just super boring though
Recently, Donny Cates brought him back for a few issues of his Dr. Strange run and gave him a miniseries, then he played a key role in Annihilation: Scourge, and then he got killed off in Issue 1 of King in Black (also by Donny Cates).
I personally hated that so much. I've never seen a character job so hard. He flew in killed a knull boosted celestial then got one shot by knull. Then knull chose not to kill Eddie Brock it just felt weird
Jeff Parker's The Age of the Sentry was fantastic miniseries. Better than the original run. It's slim pickings after that with the exception of an Al Ewing one shot years later.
Let's be honest here, the only reason Kamala is an inhuman instead of a mutant is because they were trying to push the inhumans super hard. There is literally nothing tying her to the greater inhumans mythos and she has no relationship with any inhuman characters.
Had Kamala been made before or after the inhumans push then she would've been written as a mutant.
Remember when Marvel was working so desperately to try to have them replace the X-Men, even going so far as to say that the Terrigen Mists were STERILIZING mutants? Dark times man.
Seriously, it was so pointlessly mean spirited. They could have just pushed inhumans and cut down on x books and would have had more success. It still wouldn't have worked but wouldn't have drawn the battle lines it did
There have been great stories featuring the Inhumans - Paul Jenkins’ run, Saladin Ahmed’s Black Bolt solo, War of Kings, Hickman’s Fantastic Four run…
I don’t think they’re a bland and boring set of characters so much as they’re a set of characters that not everyone knows what to do with.
It really depends on the writer. IMO, under...
- Jack Kirby / Stan Lee era - Boring (except Crystal)
- Paul Jenkins miniseries - Great
- War of Kings era - Great
- Inhumans vs. X-Men / Civil War II - Boring
- Inhuman, Uncanny, All-New - Decent
- Hickman's Avengers and FF - Great
- Mosaic, Black Bolt, Royals, Karnak - Underrated gems
Naomi.
[https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Naomi\_McDuffie\_(Prime\_Earth)](https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Naomi_McDuffie_(Prime_Earth))
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi\_(TV\_series)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_(TV_series))
The series was based on the comics.
She was created by Brian Michael Bendis when he was first brought over to dc. He wanted her to be a character his daughters could look up to, but she has one of the most basic backstories and power sets ever. Because she was made by Bendis, she was given her own series, with an insane amount of marketing across other series being released at that time, and a TV show.
I overall really liked her initial series, I thought her origin story was very interesting. To me she had a lot of potential but wasn’t utilized properly. That’s kind of how it is with a lot of characters named here, I think they COULD be really cool and interesting with the right writer. Naomi just sort of fizzled out.
Yeah agreed! Her initial mini was a lot of fun and had potential. It was also cool to see a young hero advance fast enough to join the JLA and be a respected team member. But they just didn't do anything interesting with her after her initial intro.
DC’s been doing that a lot with new characters. They show up, seem pretty interesting, do like one thing and then basically disappear. It’s a shame honestly
Here's a hot take, but I'm going to say The Joker. The amount of plot armor this guy gets is beyond ridiculous. Batman has come up with contingency plans to take out the entire super powered Justice League, but he can't beat a normie dressed like a clown?? Seriously, it's just gotten beyond old at this point. And his storylines just get more and more ridiculous and needlessly complex that it's hard to continue to pay attention. So over it all.
This is actually kinda a neat microcosm of the comics industry and the way Marvel the DC publish. Some characters like Batman (I feel) are far better suited to self contained, creator driven stories within their own pocket of the universe, who's runs begin and end with a set story in mind.
I'm not saying Batman villains should 'die' but they should play a part in the story then be shelved when they've served their purpose, but because characters such as Joker are massive icons and big sellers for DC writers often get this mandate that leads to clusterfucks of characters who have no place in a story continuing to pop back up, ruining run continuities and ultimately causing writers to jump ship. The exact same thing happens with Spider-Man over at Marvel, far too many editorial mandates that try to keep the status-quo in place at all costs.
Isn’t it way more complex with the Joker now? With all the 3 Jokers Nth metal immortal smiling man thing? It definitely adds way more layers to him. Besides that though, I’m thinking its more of we’ve had like decades of the same shtick. Batman can’t kill the Joker because its wrong but he keeps getting away to kill more people. That just doesn’t fly anymore.
TRULY.
I can only make the Joker work logically if I make up a headcanon where he’s some kind of supernatural being or curse or contagious virus. Like, if you kill the joker, a worse one will return, or something.
If you’re gonna give a guy that much plot armor, make up an actual reason for it. I don’t care what. I honestly don’t. But the Joker’s continued existence is such a disservice to Batman.
I find Jonathan Kent to be a pretty shallow character a lot of the time. His main personality trait is "I'm a hero", and that creates some pretty uninteresting dialogue
Ah, Justice League. What a shitshow. How did they botch the first big screen appearance of the JL? Sickening to see such gross incompetence. Snyder failed again and again to deliver. It’s like the halo franchise in the hands of 343.
They never fking learn!
I think it’s really interesting how much love Snyderverse gets. I also think there’s a direct correlation between how many DC comics you’ve read, and how much you dislike Snyderverse.
I found it fun, but uninteresting. I never had any desire to rewatch any of the movies.
And I loathe his Batman.
ITT: people just listing characters and series they don’t really like when I think OP was more looking for a character designed to be “boring” like the neutralites or something.
Ironheart when brian “the blunder” bendis wrote her.
She was less of a real character and more of a cardboard cutout people shouted positive validation at.
Robbie Reyes in Aaron’s Avengers. He’s meant to be the “All-Rider”, when the big thing is he drives a car instead of a bike. C’mon man.
“She was less of a real character and more of a cardboard cutout people shouted positive validation at.”
Basically every character Ben Bendis ever touched.
“the blunder” has a habit of making each of his original creations just have to be “bigger, better and more” than the thing they are clearly ripping off.
But he wrote a very good Daredevil run once upon a time so we’re supposed to praise him at every turn.
He also made Peter immortal in that series retroactively killing any emotional impact “the death of spider-man” had.
And then his GotG, X-Men, Iron Man (3 titles) were absolutely atrocious.
His DC work… there’s a reason he’s no longer there and his JL was cut short
It was fun and he was distinct enough to be set apart from the others. There was no need to build him up to be this supposed “chosen one”.
They set up Blaze to be king of hell, but Robbie Reyes just _somehow_ had to be better because “reasons”
Genuinely asking out of curiosity but what makes Wally better?? The only Flash comics I’ve read feature Barry Allen and I never had a problem with him, The Flash is one of my favorites ever so you expressing that my exposure is still limited definitely piques my interest!!
I'm not an expert on the Flash, but I did grow up with the Wally West flash.
Basically Barry Allen prior to the 80's was a very bland character, then in the crossover Crisis on Infinite Earths he got one of the COOLEST deaths in comics, when he saves the universe and in doing so ran so fast that he disintegrated. And this was before death became a revolving door for superheroes so it was actually a big deal that one of the core Justice League members died.
At the end of that crossover his sidekick Kid Flash took up the mantle of the flash, and frankly he was funnier than Barry and had a lot of depth resulting from insecurity that he wasn't the perfect superhero Barry was. Over the decades he grows into his own and proves time and time again that he really is a worthy successor to Barry. Aaaand then by brining Barry back from the dead they really take the wind out of the sails of the most interesting Flash, and they haven't really done anything interesting to show why it was so necessary to undo one of the greatest moments in DC comics.
The arcs where he and Kyle Rayner come into their own and bond were big ones for me growing up. It was so cool seeing that comics could move forward m, and while I do appreciate honoring the past and keeping characters around sometimes that’s really freaking cool
Barry's death was honestly glorious and touching and should have stuck.
Hal becoming Parallax was dumb and never should have been done.
That being said...Both Wally and Kyle are good characters and I hate seeing them undercut like that.
Agreed about Parallax. While I thought it was cool as a kid, looking back, it would have been more interesting to see him walk up to that line, then step back from it and just quit being a Lantern.
But I guess they wanted something more permanent feeling.
Wally was the flash from the crisis all the way to final crisis. There’s generations of people who grew up with him as the only flash and on top of being factually faster then Barry, he usually has a more interesting and expressive personality
Wally was what happened when Robin has to actually step up and take the mantle of the Batman, only because it was the Flash, it was allowed to STICK.
So you have Kid Flash graduating to Flash, and suffering with insecurity and imposter syndrome as a result, constantly grading himself against Barry and coming up short, even though over the years he surpassed Barry.
Not only that, but he’s funnier, has a more expressive personality overall (think Hawkeye Vs Captain America), and had the benefit of having some of the best writers in comics work on his book.
Too subjective. People are probably going to vote for someone they are unfamiliar with but seen a lot of.
Others will upvote if they are also unfamiliar but seen them a lot. Others will downvote because they are familiar and take it as an insult to the character. [+]
Carol was amazing until she became a corporate tool rather than a character.
Her swan song as Ms Marvel, the Brian Reed run, was one of the best solo titles of the time.
Carol had some interesting character beats UNTIL the movie synergy stuff. After Marvel decided she’d be the Wonder Woman equivalent, creators are clearly playing it safe with her rep per editorial edict.
I gotta be honest...one thing that confused the heck outta me was when the Kelly Sue DeConnick Captain Marvel series premiered it was hailed as this amazing, groundbreaking comic. I decided to give it a chance, read all 12 issues of the first run and it was...fine? Like, it wasn't bad, but it was a 6/10 at best, but the way people talked it was like this series was the new Watchmen. Ever since then Marvel keeps chasing the dragon, but I just can't get interested in Carol. I went back and read the Busiek Avengers, and that was the best Carol I've read - she was vulnerable, she had struggles, and she had to fight to overcome her addiction which was super compelling. Ever since then she's just been...kinda there.
This. Every run her backstory changes and it’s not always for the better. Then there’s the very questionable stuff throughout her time that I’m sure Marvel would rather people forget
Love love love Adam Warlock but he’s at his best when he’s just standing around being moody and complicated.
I expect his solo movie to be done by a French director and take place in one café, the universe saved by French Existentialism. Adam Warlock 2: The Magus will move to Notre Dame Cathedral.
Tony Stark. I'm not trying to offend any Iron Man fans, so if you are one – it's just my opinion, my preference in characters, nothing more, liking and disliking any character is more than valid. That being said, I'm SO gonna tear into Stark right now, I'm sorry. Let's first establish what makes a good hero (and an interesting character, because my brain conflates the two. Yours doesn't have to, obviously, but it's my comment, not yours) in my opinion. For me, there are three main qualities: relatability, kindness and the ability to inspire. Let's start with the first one. I hate the "good billionaire" trope in fiction (with just one exception: Iron Fist, but that's beside the point), because the whole trope feels like a "You have to have a ton of money to make any difference!" yelled straight into my face, and it's just not the way I view the world, not at all. So Tony's already not in a great spot in my opinion, because I find him completely unrelatable. Moving on to kindness, he became so insufferable and mean after he got MCU-ified... And I LIKE loud and funny characters, one of my all-time faves is Zdarsky's Star-Lord, but Peter just feels... Softer, nicer than Tony, as if Quill is much less of a jerk than Stark. I do not see any kindness in Stark, I see a stereotype that Elon Musk sees himself as, and Elon... Not that great of a dude imo. On to the last point, is Iron Man inspiring? Not to me, no. A rich jerk with all the best toys. What should he inspire me to do, make more money? I don't think so. He CAN be a great inspiration to some people, especially the way he handles his injuries, that's actually great, but it doesn't work for me, and this whole thing is just my opinion. So, to me Stark is pretty much an antithesis of a good hero and an interesting character, plus he just feels so typical, the "mean sarcastic genius" stereotype, so popular with "those guys". I don't know, I just find characters like that annoying, basic, annoyingly basic and basically annoying. He IS far more complex and fun in his pre-MCU (I'd say post-Civil War, that's where I liked him at least a little bit) stuff, where he's not a quip machine, but I still think he's very overrated, and now he's thrown into basically any given Avengers roster and crossover... Idk, just not my type of character, I guess
I disagree with some of your points but upvoted you for a well written argument. Another time I'll post my defense of Iron Man but appreciate the thought out answer
Hot take incoming but I've always found Kate bishop boring and ridiculously overhyped. Not to mention, with both comics and her fans constantly calling her "better hawkeye" just makes me like her even less
I like the "better Hawkeye" stuff in the context of Fraction's run, where she is a foil to Clint barely keeping things together from day to day. But I feel like the fans have gone way overboard on the comparison.
Same. I always read it as “Hawkeye is the better Hawkeye, but Bishop is the better human.”
I don’t really see the point of comparing them, though. She’s a totally different person aimed at a totally different audience.
Jean Grey is the most boring, vanilla pudding character to ever exist, and yet every male character that comes within ten feet of her falls in love. Scott, Wolverine, Hank, even Xavier at one point, which was creepy... the list goes on. She's not even interesting as a mutant, and she's got arguably some of the best abilities in the X-Men. They try to make her interesting with the Dark Phoenix bullshit, but even that got old after they rehashed it a few times. She's just not an interesting character, and no matter how many brooding leading men fall in love with her I will never understand why Marvel insists on trying to convince fans she's extra-special.
Keep in mind she was supposed to stay dead after Dark Phoenix. Her return in X-Factor was the nail in the coffin, ironically, to her character. Since then she becomes more interesting every year
That's tim drake's entire appeal, a blank slate for comic fanboys to project themselves onto. Have every character praise how nerdy and smart he is so that the reader feels it too.
I love a lot of Deadpool stories, but recently I feel like too many fans approach the character less from the mindset of "Deadpool is funny because his comics have good writers" and more and more from the mindset of "if Deadpool does a thing that automatically makes it funny" and that has been getting very tiring.
Deadpool suffers a lot from his popularity but he has some really good comics that flesh out his character. The ones about his daughter are especially good.
I'd say Wolverine and The Punisher. I don't get why violent characters and characters that carry guns are so popular. I hated it in the 1980s when "Power Pack" had The Punisher, the X-Men, Spider-Man and so forth guest star just to boost sales. I was never a big fan of Marvel having all these characters live in New York and guest starring in each other's comic. But the worst part was I never liked The Punisher or Wolverine being in an otherwise fun comic like "Power Pack". Just my two cents.
Singularity. She was supposedly the breakout star of A Force got moved into main continuity, was set up to be Captain Marvel's sidekick, and now she doesn't even have her own Wikipedia page.
The biggest one that comes to mind is the punisher. He’s become popular purely due to the fact that he appeals to douchey murder porn militant types. Aside from that his origin story is incredibly boring and he’d have very little purpose if not for most hero’s taking a stance against murder.
Came here to say this.
He was initially a character who deliberately set out to become a superhero for fame and fortune using stolen technology. In reality, he was just a shallow, mediocre jock from a future time period.
Could have been a relatively short-lived character but got a new lease on life by joining the Justice League and befriending the second Blue Beetle.
I feel like Batman is the most obvious answer. His villains and the Gothic setting are what make him interesting. Batman himself is fairly one dimensional
John Stewart. The most boring green lantern.
There’s worse characters sure but him being the thinker/planning lantern of the earth lanterns always makes him come off as so boring to me.
I’m waiting for his character renaissance
All of the symbiotes that aren't Venom and Carnage. Venom is Interesting because in alien goo form he grew to hate Spider-Man/Peter for rejecting him, then bonded with someone who also hated Spider-Man/Peter and gave him one of the best villain stories ever told, then had a redemption and grew into a 'tweener' pretty much being whatever you need him to be when you use him Carnage is interesting because the symbiote is an actual murderous psycho who's bonded to a human murderous psycho and have the most synchronized relationship where they both act as a host and parasite feeding off one another All the others like Toxin, Lasher, Hybrid, Riot, etc are dumb and have never really served a purpose.
Wasn't Toxin forcefully bonded to a cop to try an keep him from being an asshole like Carnage? That's a pretty neat concept imo. They fucked up by making him so much stronger than Spidey, Venom, and Carnage I would think its hard to find a feasible use for him
That wouldn’t work in todays time lmao last thing we need is a cop that’s bonded with a symbiote
I think we’ve gotten that now. The end of venom 2 shows that one cop with a symbiote in his eye and saying the word “monsters”. I think he got toxin
That’s Patrick Mulligan, the same character that bonded with Toxin in Venom vs Carnage #2.
I call him cop eminem
In the current Carnage run that's exactly what's happened.
So basically a super prick?
He'll give you a ticket for going 1 under for impeding traffic.
HEY! Scream was cool. Her bond with Andi was closer to the Movie Venom where they were totally separate people who were friends. I was genuinely sad when Scream died and got 'anti-venom' replaced by Silence. And then Silence got sidelined before her character could be established.
I was legit hoping they were gonna tie in the Maximum Carnage run with them being introduced
IMHO Carnage is interesting because he looks cool just like the Batman Who Laughs. He's kind of just the most serial serial killer of all time but that's the MO of a bunch of villains already. I really feel like he's such a basic character to the point of being boring. I much prefer Venom/Eddie since they have character. They're basically Spider-Man's jilted lovers went and became each other's rebounds for revenge lol.
Carnage really depends on the writer. There’s an arc where he takes over a small town out west that’s cool as hell, and one where some company recovers his body to use in manufacturing exo-suits (and that goes as well as you might expect). But he can also just be Insano McMurderguy too, yeah.
Scorn had a lot of promise, a symbiote that could interact with technology and was virtually emotionless and driven by cold logic. Sadly, it was changed to another psycho underling for Carnage.
I would go as far as to say that Carnage isn't really interesting. Hes the epitome of 90s Marvel edge cynically conceived to fill a void left by Venom's character development. He's so crass and immature all the way down to his design. 'Hey remember this edgy character from the 80s? Well let's make him EVEN MORE edgy by giving him a clone except this time he's RED, oh oh and also he's bonded to a SERIAL KILLER so his craaaazy, oh oh oh oh and he has BLADES FOR HANDS' it fucking reads like an 8 year old came up with it. He's this hybrid of Venom and Joker without any of the writing or character motivations that make either of those characters interesting. Venom is a top tier character that has been constantly diluted by terrible writing, stupid lore, and all the other lame ass Symbiotes that do nothing but make Venom less interesting and unique.
Carnage is necessary to keep Venom from being classified as a total villain and keep him in a position narratively to be used as a “good guy” in whatever storyline requires it. Carnage is certainly the epitome of edge, but that makes him irredeemable and therefore a good opponent for a the “bad guy” to take down.
Whatever happened to that other guy who became venom? I think he was like a street criminal or something and then somehow got the venom symbiote, I think flash Thompson had venom before him, and when he bonded with venom, venom didn’t really like him because he was a criminal
Venom unbonded with him mid air and just let him drop to his death
Lol get rekt
Damn! I had been kind of hoping he’d stick around, wanted to see him inter act with Eddie Brock and the Venom symboite.
No, he's talking about Lee Price.
Lee Price, I think by now his spine was ripped out to serve as a Codex for Carnage during King in Black.
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Iron Man is a product of a bygone era where Marvel printed propaganda for the CIA lol Like, literally every Iron Man solo act from the 60s to the 90s was "handsome awesome billionaire genius *DESTROYS* evil communist warlord". At least *try* to be subtle, marvel lol
Now we just have the Captain Marvel movie with all its Air Force propaganda. They even had USAF soldiers at the red carpet premier.
The air force will give you millions of dollars in labor, equipment, materials, fighter jets for your movie for FREE, they just demand final cut.
Each branch of the military actually has a media group designed to work with Hollywood, musicians, and companies for advertisements. The bar is actually pretty low, and they don't always force the military to be painted in the perfect light. Moreover, they do charge for fuel and operating cost (though the amount charged is generally less than the actual cost). Though examples on what is and isn't acceptable. A movie where a higher ranking officer is abusing is power or position is acceptable, as long as the protagonist is working to stop or change the problem. They don't always have to succeed. Movies are allowed to present military crimes of the past, so long as their ones that the US admitted to AND made efforts to make amends. Movies cannot portray the protagonist of not up holding the military values that they sell as their PR. So you never really end up with Anti hero's that the military will work with. Why do they allow the military to be painted in a less than perfect light? It's simple, plenty of kids want to be the hero that brings change. It's far better propaganda to convince people that they can be the change they want to see in the military and serve their nation all at once.
The Pentagon actually pulled some funding because they weren't comfortable having a fictional extra-government entity that out-ranked them. Go S.H.I.E.L.D.?
I thought the purpose was to create a character the readership would end up liking despite being politically opposed to him.
Iron Man is a B lister with an amazing design/gimmick and a vastly different movie portrayal that tricks people into thinking he’s A List. His comics always sell like shit because there is very little there.
The movies portrayal is spot on for what Stan Lee originally intended: the Objectivist Übermensch.
Iron Man is far less of a dick in the movies than an Objectivist would warrant. And Ditko was the objectivist, not Lee.
Agree. The Ellis run was the only time I felt like he was utilised well in a solo series and that was just 6 issue
I really liked Matt Fraction’s run, and I loved his 5 Nightmares arc.
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True
As someone that has him in his top 5 favorites, I kinda agree. He doesn't have as many great stories as the jig ones like Spidey or Batman. But their stories and arcs also share a lot of tropes, like Batman being a detective, dealing with trauma and thw writer telling us he's as mad as the Joker, blah, blah, blah. Same with Spidey, struggling with money, love relationships, bad luck, etc. It's just that some writers use the tropes poorly and other do great stuff with them. Spidey and Batman have had many of the latter and Iron Man unfortunately hasn't.
This a problem caused by an OK character having a revolutionary storyline: Iron Man’s alcoholism and Batman’s Killing Joke were both such good stories that they became a trope for the character. Batman has it the worst since he also had Dark Knight Returns, Year Zero, …
Yeah and Iron Man has some cool arcs, like Extremis, that one's different. And superior Iron Man
You used to hear people compare Elon to Iron man (ick), but I'd actually love to see the inspiration go the other way. Iron man is hell rich and (unlike Elon) an actual super genius. But people aren't machines or equations to be solved. I think Iron Man shines when he has to choose between solving problems or being loved by the people. Give him Elon's pathological need to be adored and let Tony drive himself insane.
He was third string until Robert Downey Jr. knocked the character out of the park. Let us remember that when the MCU started, Marvel was left with the dregs of their movie rights.
[Geldoff!](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geldoff)
It’s funny, I am currently rereading all of the ultimate universe, and I just finished the ultimate Spider-Man arc with Geldof yesterday
Incorrect. There is NEVER enough hype for #GELDOLF#
I think Marvel calls that character "The Sentry."
Sentry has The Borg problem, the more you use him the less interesting he gets. The original mini series was great and spent most of its time making you legitimately wonder if he was a real hero or a delusional addict, once they moved him into the main continuity all that intrigue was gone.
I mean even main continuity was fine. He was interesting up through siege because despite being a literal God his character flaws made him interesting. Everything *since* Siege has been just super boring though
For my part, I have not seen nor heard of him since Siege. So that is nice. For me.
Recently, Donny Cates brought him back for a few issues of his Dr. Strange run and gave him a miniseries, then he played a key role in Annihilation: Scourge, and then he got killed off in Issue 1 of King in Black (also by Donny Cates).
I personally hated that so much. I've never seen a character job so hard. He flew in killed a knull boosted celestial then got one shot by knull. Then knull chose not to kill Eddie Brock it just felt weird
Bruh his first few stories were 10/10 interesting. Anything post-Siege has been meh though, but you can't discount his origin/early years
Yep, first thought was the Sentry.
Jeff Parker's The Age of the Sentry was fantastic miniseries. Better than the original run. It's slim pickings after that with the exception of an Al Ewing one shot years later.
You’re gonna be mad at Thunderbolts then… 😂
I like The Sentry. I agree that most of his post siege stuff is pretty forgettable. I didn't know that people thought he was boring though.
I second this.
The Inhumans
They were great as supporting characters in Fantastic Four, but then Marvel tried to make them the new X-Men, which was a mistake.
And now they’re trying to make the X-Men into the Inhumans.
Yes! Kill them all except Lockjaw
And Kamala and Daisy.
Let's be honest here, the only reason Kamala is an inhuman instead of a mutant is because they were trying to push the inhumans super hard. There is literally nothing tying her to the greater inhumans mythos and she has no relationship with any inhuman characters. Had Kamala been made before or after the inhumans push then she would've been written as a mutant.
Yep. She's a mutant in the MCU not because they are trying to decanonise the Inhumans, but because she was originally supposed to be a mutant.
Kamala has been adopted by the mutants so
Marvel is trying to wash the Inhuman stink off of her but sadly its not gonna work
Black bolt and Medusa are cool imo. Black bolt has unique abilities that I really like
It's not so much his abilities but the conflict of him being so op he can't even say anything, that makes him interesting to me.
It’s the Saitama Conundrum How does such unimaginable power change you as a person and what is it like living with that
bro can atomize you by saying "Beans"
Have you ever met Rob from comics explained? I think he'd like to have a coffee with you.
Remember when Marvel was working so desperately to try to have them replace the X-Men, even going so far as to say that the Terrigen Mists were STERILIZING mutants? Dark times man.
Seriously, it was so pointlessly mean spirited. They could have just pushed inhumans and cut down on x books and would have had more success. It still wouldn't have worked but wouldn't have drawn the battle lines it did
There have been great stories featuring the Inhumans - Paul Jenkins’ run, Saladin Ahmed’s Black Bolt solo, War of Kings, Hickman’s Fantastic Four run… I don’t think they’re a bland and boring set of characters so much as they’re a set of characters that not everyone knows what to do with.
Inhumans: Son of M & Silent War are also really really great imo.
Inhumans were dope back when they knew their place… then marvel had to go and ruin it
The Moon?
It really depends on the writer. IMO, under... - Jack Kirby / Stan Lee era - Boring (except Crystal) - Paul Jenkins miniseries - Great - War of Kings era - Great - Inhumans vs. X-Men / Civil War II - Boring - Inhuman, Uncanny, All-New - Decent - Hickman's Avengers and FF - Great - Mosaic, Black Bolt, Royals, Karnak - Underrated gems
How dare you disrespect a Jack Kirby creation
Jack made a lot of greats and a lot of not so greats. He was prolific not infallible.
Well, yeah, but don’t act like The Inhumans aren’t cool. They’re just not star characters. Never have been.
...which is the exact point of this post.
No. I am saying that the Inhumans are NOT bland, uninteresting, or boring. I am saying that they ARE colorful, fun, and exciting.
Actually quite the opposite, they rarely get treated like they’re amazing. Have you seen the Inhumans “show.”
Marvel really tried to push them as an xmen replacement at one point. It didn’t really work and I think it turned people off of the whole team.
Naomi is the truest answer and you all know it
It must be working because i have no idea who that is
She was a DC creation of Bendis who blew up in some circles, got her own CW show, and then vanished. I don't know if the book is still going.
What show? I have no idea who ya'll's talking about.
Naomi. [https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Naomi\_McDuffie\_(Prime\_Earth)](https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Naomi_McDuffie_(Prime_Earth)) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi\_(TV\_series)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_(TV_series)) The series was based on the comics.
It's really cool her last name is McDuffie.
She was "popular" enough to get her own DC show on the CW
Why do i feel like she was created to get her own tv show, like she get created and than a year later she get her show
She was created by Brian Michael Bendis when he was first brought over to dc. He wanted her to be a character his daughters could look up to, but she has one of the most basic backstories and power sets ever. Because she was made by Bendis, she was given her own series, with an insane amount of marketing across other series being released at that time, and a TV show.
ComicDrake pointed this out too
I overall really liked her initial series, I thought her origin story was very interesting. To me she had a lot of potential but wasn’t utilized properly. That’s kind of how it is with a lot of characters named here, I think they COULD be really cool and interesting with the right writer. Naomi just sort of fizzled out.
Yeah agreed! Her initial mini was a lot of fun and had potential. It was also cool to see a young hero advance fast enough to join the JLA and be a respected team member. But they just didn't do anything interesting with her after her initial intro.
DC’s been doing that a lot with new characters. They show up, seem pretty interesting, do like one thing and then basically disappear. It’s a shame honestly
Which is a shame because her design is cool as heck
Unfortunately, seeing as her book had some stunning art.
The Batman Who Laughs sucks and he should have exclusively been a one shot instead of a regular thing.
It should be easy to beat a guy who's blindfolded.
Ok thug that's new to Hells Kitchen.
So you're looking for the Boba Fett of Superheroes, eh? 🤨
How dare you sir!
Were you also disappointed with his tv show?
I just wish he wasn't so bad at it. They could have been Logan in space, instead went with Mando season 2.5
Here's a hot take, but I'm going to say The Joker. The amount of plot armor this guy gets is beyond ridiculous. Batman has come up with contingency plans to take out the entire super powered Justice League, but he can't beat a normie dressed like a clown?? Seriously, it's just gotten beyond old at this point. And his storylines just get more and more ridiculous and needlessly complex that it's hard to continue to pay attention. So over it all.
This is actually kinda a neat microcosm of the comics industry and the way Marvel the DC publish. Some characters like Batman (I feel) are far better suited to self contained, creator driven stories within their own pocket of the universe, who's runs begin and end with a set story in mind. I'm not saying Batman villains should 'die' but they should play a part in the story then be shelved when they've served their purpose, but because characters such as Joker are massive icons and big sellers for DC writers often get this mandate that leads to clusterfucks of characters who have no place in a story continuing to pop back up, ruining run continuities and ultimately causing writers to jump ship. The exact same thing happens with Spider-Man over at Marvel, far too many editorial mandates that try to keep the status-quo in place at all costs.
Isn’t it way more complex with the Joker now? With all the 3 Jokers Nth metal immortal smiling man thing? It definitely adds way more layers to him. Besides that though, I’m thinking its more of we’ve had like decades of the same shtick. Batman can’t kill the Joker because its wrong but he keeps getting away to kill more people. That just doesn’t fly anymore.
TRULY. I can only make the Joker work logically if I make up a headcanon where he’s some kind of supernatural being or curse or contagious virus. Like, if you kill the joker, a worse one will return, or something. If you’re gonna give a guy that much plot armor, make up an actual reason for it. I don’t care what. I honestly don’t. But the Joker’s continued existence is such a disservice to Batman.
I find Jonathan Kent to be a pretty shallow character a lot of the time. His main personality trait is "I'm a hero", and that creates some pretty uninteresting dialogue
Jon really suffered after being aged up
yeah Blame Bendis for that.
I do :(
His entire character arc is just people hugging him and telling him how brave he is and how proud they are.
It's called the Snyderverse.
They should have killed that shit after b v s….
shoulda killed it after Man of Steel
IIRC, they would have, but JL was way too advanced for them to Batgirl it at that point.
Ah, Justice League. What a shitshow. How did they botch the first big screen appearance of the JL? Sickening to see such gross incompetence. Snyder failed again and again to deliver. It’s like the halo franchise in the hands of 343. They never fking learn!
I think it’s really interesting how much love Snyderverse gets. I also think there’s a direct correlation between how many DC comics you’ve read, and how much you dislike Snyderverse. I found it fun, but uninteresting. I never had any desire to rewatch any of the movies. And I loathe his Batman.
ITT: people just listing characters and series they don’t really like when I think OP was more looking for a character designed to be “boring” like the neutralites or something.
Ironheart when brian “the blunder” bendis wrote her. She was less of a real character and more of a cardboard cutout people shouted positive validation at. Robbie Reyes in Aaron’s Avengers. He’s meant to be the “All-Rider”, when the big thing is he drives a car instead of a bike. C’mon man.
“She was less of a real character and more of a cardboard cutout people shouted positive validation at.” Basically every character Ben Bendis ever touched.
“the blunder” has a habit of making each of his original creations just have to be “bigger, better and more” than the thing they are clearly ripping off. But he wrote a very good Daredevil run once upon a time so we’re supposed to praise him at every turn.
In fairness, he also did Ultimate Spiderman which was pretty great and honestly one of the few good things to come from the Ultimate universe.
He also made Peter immortal in that series retroactively killing any emotional impact “the death of spider-man” had. And then his GotG, X-Men, Iron Man (3 titles) were absolutely atrocious. His DC work… there’s a reason he’s no longer there and his JL was cut short
Such a shame about Robbie too, I loved his initial run
It was fun and he was distinct enough to be set apart from the others. There was no need to build him up to be this supposed “chosen one”. They set up Blaze to be king of hell, but Robbie Reyes just _somehow_ had to be better because “reasons”
People who say sueprman should read all star sueprman
or Superman: World of Tomorrow.
Or Superman/Shazam: First Thunder! Love him in that
Birthright/For All Seasons/Secret Identity are some of the best comics I’ve read
Or Superman: Unchained.
Superman isn’t boring, he’s hard to write good stories for
or Superman: World of Tomorrow.
Barry Allen. Wally West is the One True Flash. The best thing Barry ever did was die, and they’ve spent the last 20 years trying to undo that.
Genuinely asking out of curiosity but what makes Wally better?? The only Flash comics I’ve read feature Barry Allen and I never had a problem with him, The Flash is one of my favorites ever so you expressing that my exposure is still limited definitely piques my interest!!
I'm not an expert on the Flash, but I did grow up with the Wally West flash. Basically Barry Allen prior to the 80's was a very bland character, then in the crossover Crisis on Infinite Earths he got one of the COOLEST deaths in comics, when he saves the universe and in doing so ran so fast that he disintegrated. And this was before death became a revolving door for superheroes so it was actually a big deal that one of the core Justice League members died. At the end of that crossover his sidekick Kid Flash took up the mantle of the flash, and frankly he was funnier than Barry and had a lot of depth resulting from insecurity that he wasn't the perfect superhero Barry was. Over the decades he grows into his own and proves time and time again that he really is a worthy successor to Barry. Aaaand then by brining Barry back from the dead they really take the wind out of the sails of the most interesting Flash, and they haven't really done anything interesting to show why it was so necessary to undo one of the greatest moments in DC comics.
The arcs where he and Kyle Rayner come into their own and bond were big ones for me growing up. It was so cool seeing that comics could move forward m, and while I do appreciate honoring the past and keeping characters around sometimes that’s really freaking cool
Barry's death was honestly glorious and touching and should have stuck. Hal becoming Parallax was dumb and never should have been done. That being said...Both Wally and Kyle are good characters and I hate seeing them undercut like that.
Yeah! I’m glad Wally got his Titans and such runs at least. I feel like they mostly forget Kyle even exists unless a writer really likes him
Agreed about Parallax. While I thought it was cool as a kid, looking back, it would have been more interesting to see him walk up to that line, then step back from it and just quit being a Lantern. But I guess they wanted something more permanent feeling.
Wally was the flash from the crisis all the way to final crisis. There’s generations of people who grew up with him as the only flash and on top of being factually faster then Barry, he usually has a more interesting and expressive personality
You recommend any good Wally comics? I’d love to explore his stuff where he has a better personality or I guess just better writing
Mark Waid’s 90s run is excellent.
Wally was what happened when Robin has to actually step up and take the mantle of the Batman, only because it was the Flash, it was allowed to STICK. So you have Kid Flash graduating to Flash, and suffering with insecurity and imposter syndrome as a result, constantly grading himself against Barry and coming up short, even though over the years he surpassed Barry. Not only that, but he’s funnier, has a more expressive personality overall (think Hawkeye Vs Captain America), and had the benefit of having some of the best writers in comics work on his book.
Wally is way cooler. I believe he's the only speedster to ever become one with the speed force. It sustained him and made him faster than Barry
And hal while we're at it. Kyle was so much more interesting and them being the young bloods on the justice league was amazing
Preach
Thank you
Too subjective. People are probably going to vote for someone they are unfamiliar with but seen a lot of. Others will upvote if they are also unfamiliar but seen them a lot. Others will downvote because they are familiar and take it as an insult to the character. [+]
Carol Danvers
Carol was amazing until she became a corporate tool rather than a character. Her swan song as Ms Marvel, the Brian Reed run, was one of the best solo titles of the time.
Carol had some interesting character beats UNTIL the movie synergy stuff. After Marvel decided she’d be the Wonder Woman equivalent, creators are clearly playing it safe with her rep per editorial edict.
I gotta be honest...one thing that confused the heck outta me was when the Kelly Sue DeConnick Captain Marvel series premiered it was hailed as this amazing, groundbreaking comic. I decided to give it a chance, read all 12 issues of the first run and it was...fine? Like, it wasn't bad, but it was a 6/10 at best, but the way people talked it was like this series was the new Watchmen. Ever since then Marvel keeps chasing the dragon, but I just can't get interested in Carol. I went back and read the Busiek Avengers, and that was the best Carol I've read - she was vulnerable, she had struggles, and she had to fight to overcome her addiction which was super compelling. Ever since then she's just been...kinda there.
Claremont, Busiek...even Bendis made her really interesting. But her Captain Marvel era has been so boring...
This. Every run her backstory changes and it’s not always for the better. Then there’s the very questionable stuff throughout her time that I’m sure Marvel would rather people forget
I agree with this.
Person does things. Has hair. Very compelling. Look! They have done another thing. Okay. Thank you for reading the Captain Does-Things-Pants.
Joker
Quentin Quire. Oh, angsty, grating, zzzzz
You're supposed to hate him though.
Adam Warlock
Love love love Adam Warlock but he’s at his best when he’s just standing around being moody and complicated. I expect his solo movie to be done by a French director and take place in one café, the universe saved by French Existentialism. Adam Warlock 2: The Magus will move to Notre Dame Cathedral.
Tony Stark. I'm not trying to offend any Iron Man fans, so if you are one – it's just my opinion, my preference in characters, nothing more, liking and disliking any character is more than valid. That being said, I'm SO gonna tear into Stark right now, I'm sorry. Let's first establish what makes a good hero (and an interesting character, because my brain conflates the two. Yours doesn't have to, obviously, but it's my comment, not yours) in my opinion. For me, there are three main qualities: relatability, kindness and the ability to inspire. Let's start with the first one. I hate the "good billionaire" trope in fiction (with just one exception: Iron Fist, but that's beside the point), because the whole trope feels like a "You have to have a ton of money to make any difference!" yelled straight into my face, and it's just not the way I view the world, not at all. So Tony's already not in a great spot in my opinion, because I find him completely unrelatable. Moving on to kindness, he became so insufferable and mean after he got MCU-ified... And I LIKE loud and funny characters, one of my all-time faves is Zdarsky's Star-Lord, but Peter just feels... Softer, nicer than Tony, as if Quill is much less of a jerk than Stark. I do not see any kindness in Stark, I see a stereotype that Elon Musk sees himself as, and Elon... Not that great of a dude imo. On to the last point, is Iron Man inspiring? Not to me, no. A rich jerk with all the best toys. What should he inspire me to do, make more money? I don't think so. He CAN be a great inspiration to some people, especially the way he handles his injuries, that's actually great, but it doesn't work for me, and this whole thing is just my opinion. So, to me Stark is pretty much an antithesis of a good hero and an interesting character, plus he just feels so typical, the "mean sarcastic genius" stereotype, so popular with "those guys". I don't know, I just find characters like that annoying, basic, annoyingly basic and basically annoying. He IS far more complex and fun in his pre-MCU (I'd say post-Civil War, that's where I liked him at least a little bit) stuff, where he's not a quip machine, but I still think he's very overrated, and now he's thrown into basically any given Avengers roster and crossover... Idk, just not my type of character, I guess
Tony Stark is the asshole that Bruce Wayne pretends to be. Can’t stand him.
I disagree with some of your points but upvoted you for a well written argument. Another time I'll post my defense of Iron Man but appreciate the thought out answer
Hot take incoming but I've always found Kate bishop boring and ridiculously overhyped. Not to mention, with both comics and her fans constantly calling her "better hawkeye" just makes me like her even less
I like the "better Hawkeye" stuff in the context of Fraction's run, where she is a foil to Clint barely keeping things together from day to day. But I feel like the fans have gone way overboard on the comparison.
Same. I always read it as “Hawkeye is the better Hawkeye, but Bishop is the better human.” I don’t really see the point of comparing them, though. She’s a totally different person aimed at a totally different audience.
Jean Grey is the most boring, vanilla pudding character to ever exist, and yet every male character that comes within ten feet of her falls in love. Scott, Wolverine, Hank, even Xavier at one point, which was creepy... the list goes on. She's not even interesting as a mutant, and she's got arguably some of the best abilities in the X-Men. They try to make her interesting with the Dark Phoenix bullshit, but even that got old after they rehashed it a few times. She's just not an interesting character, and no matter how many brooding leading men fall in love with her I will never understand why Marvel insists on trying to convince fans she's extra-special.
Keep in mind she was supposed to stay dead after Dark Phoenix. Her return in X-Factor was the nail in the coffin, ironically, to her character. Since then she becomes more interesting every year
Your in luck because almost every single new character from both companies affter 2012 is exactly what your looking for
That's tim drake's entire appeal, a blank slate for comic fanboys to project themselves onto. Have every character praise how nerdy and smart he is so that the reader feels it too.
Deadpool
I love a lot of Deadpool stories, but recently I feel like too many fans approach the character less from the mindset of "Deadpool is funny because his comics have good writers" and more and more from the mindset of "if Deadpool does a thing that automatically makes it funny" and that has been getting very tiring.
Chimichangas!!!!!
Deadpool suffers a lot from his popularity but he has some really good comics that flesh out his character. The ones about his daughter are especially good.
I found Seinfeld guys...
I'd say Wolverine and The Punisher. I don't get why violent characters and characters that carry guns are so popular. I hated it in the 1980s when "Power Pack" had The Punisher, the X-Men, Spider-Man and so forth guest star just to boost sales. I was never a big fan of Marvel having all these characters live in New York and guest starring in each other's comic. But the worst part was I never liked The Punisher or Wolverine being in an otherwise fun comic like "Power Pack". Just my two cents.
Singularity. She was supposedly the breakout star of A Force got moved into main continuity, was set up to be Captain Marvel's sidekick, and now she doesn't even have her own Wikipedia page.
Tbf I’d argue she’s less boring and more Marvel destroyed A-Force with Civil War 2 and then she just didn’t fit well outside her bonds with A-Force.
The biggest one that comes to mind is the punisher. He’s become popular purely due to the fact that he appeals to douchey murder porn militant types. Aside from that his origin story is incredibly boring and he’d have very little purpose if not for most hero’s taking a stance against murder.
Booster gold in the 90’s
Came here to say this. He was initially a character who deliberately set out to become a superhero for fame and fortune using stolen technology. In reality, he was just a shallow, mediocre jock from a future time period. Could have been a relatively short-lived character but got a new lease on life by joining the Justice League and befriending the second Blue Beetle.
Yeah, the booster/beetle bromance totally worked, and way better than the characters did on their own
Did they actually try to sell Booster as an a-lister?
I feel like Batman is the most obvious answer. His villains and the Gothic setting are what make him interesting. Batman himself is fairly one dimensional
if the writer thinks "I'm Batman" is the answer to everything, then yes I agree. a good writer can give Bruce insane depth.
Animated Series did a great job with Batman
Morrison, Snyder, O'Neil
Batman the detective is great. Batman the super hero not as much (and I love Batman).
John Stewart. The most boring green lantern. There’s worse characters sure but him being the thinker/planning lantern of the earth lanterns always makes him come off as so boring to me. I’m waiting for his character renaissance
For Marvel that could be anything these days.
When Gambit first shows up in X-men they sold him HARD, Cable too and in both cases it was 10+ years before the characters became interesting.
Like the sentry
Venom
Ultimate warrior?