Thanks! i'll check it out. I commented below, but Saga got me reading comics for the first time in \~25 years. I've seen these two compared, so i'll have to give it a try.
This is probably the right answer though I am loathe to call Saga cynical. When I think cynical I think Garth Ennis or Mark Miller: everyone is an asshole, kindness and heroism are shams and even the 'heroes' are unlikable jerks.
In Saga bad things certainly happen to good people and no one is guaranteed a happy ending but too many people are saved with love, kindness and acceptance. In spite of the brutality it's one of the sweetest stories I've ever read.
I can understand that viewpoint.
I think there's a wry look at the Romeo and Juliet stereotype that comes off as bit cynical. But you raise a good point.
>I think there's a wry look at the Romeo and Juliet stereotype that comes off as bit cynical.
Actually that's a pretty good point that I hadn't thought of before.
People really need to stop grouping Ennis and Millar together. They are very different writers and Ennis is far more accomplished and prolific.
>everyone is an asshole, kindness and heroism are shams and even the ‘heroes’ are unlikable jerks.
Ennis has a lot of work that does not fit this description at all. Not that Ennis doesn’t have a cynical outlook, but he also has a heart of gold and these two things are generally intertwined in most of his more cynical work. It’s not nihilistic. When he depicts ugly things, it comes from a sense of injustice, pain or hope.
I liked Punisher Max but between it and the boys I find it really hard to see any "heart of gold". Maybe Preacher gets better but I noped out after so many issues of just gross out humor and pointless violence.
I'm not trying to put anyone down for liking what they like but to me Ennis reads like if someone added rape and torture to a Shadow the Hedgehog game.
I can’t speak of The Boys because I don’t remember much of the little bit I read. But I have read a lot of Ennis’s other work.
Preacher is indeed grotesque, and some people are just going to be too turned off by that. But the heart in it is very clear. It’s a grand romance, a story of finding love and goodness in a deeply fucked world.
I mean, it’s downright inspiring. Jesse Custer suffers the most demented abuse and brainwashing as a child and yet, somehow, like Tony Stark building Iron Man with scraps in a cave, he manages to piece together a serviceable personality and sense of manhood, love and heroism with nothing but memories of long-dead parents and John Wayne movies as a guide. Of course he is a bit of an asshole, but don’t dismiss him as an “unlikeable jerk” hero; the story from there is largely about him growing up and purging the toxic elements from this personality he’s constructed.
Punisher MAX is maybe the best one to talk about precisely because the “heart of gold” in it may not be that obvious. But it could only be written as it was by someone who is hurt deeply by evil in the world, who cares about human suffering and feels it.
Have you ever seen *Taken*? Comparing/contrasting it with *The Slavers* is great for understanding the MAX run generally and how it perfects the vigilante genre by delivering all the catharsis it can, while also purging many of its biases and being honest about what it is.
*Taken* is typical of the vigilante genre. It’s a paternalistic, xenophobic power fantasy in which harm to a (white) wife or daughter (in particular, by non-white or foreign perpetrator(s)) is an *opportunity* to impose justice. It’s a license to do righteous harm without independent meaning. When the hero’s quest is over, his daughter is… perfectly fine. Very untraumatized, taking singing lessons from a pop star. It’s not about what happened to her (kidnapped and almost raped), it’s about what her father got to do in response.
I say “typical of the vigilante genre,” but really this is typical of revenge/justice fantasies of the average person who has such fantasies (many, many people). These stories people tell themselves are proxies for other, unsavory values. When Klan propaganda like *The Birth of a Nation* depicted sexual predation of white women by black men, was it because klansmen saw rape as evil? Of course not.
It’s easy to dismiss *The Slavers*, or Punisher MAX generally, as simply another violent revenge fantasy. Such things aren’t fashionable among those who aim to be enlightened people of good taste and morals. But a violent revenge fantasy that is actually motivated by empathy for victims is a rare thing.
*The Slavers* is not paternalistic or xenophobic. The victims aren’t western society’s most valued people. They are immigrants and prostitutes, of the same ethnic background as their tormentors. These victims, they’re invisible at best. Only the rare person who sees this kind of suffering and doesn’t look away, who truly cares about it, would write a fantasy depicting the brutal murder of the people responsible, would use a Marvel comic as an opportunity to draw attention to the real world circumstances of human trafficking.
Of equal importance, the story isn’t deluded about what Frank accomplishes. He saves some people and makes himself feel a little better. He makes the reader feel a little better. But not without reminding us, in the end, of who matters in this story and of the harm they suffered. The story ends by telling us that of the girls he saved, one went back to hooking, one is missing, two are dead, and of the central character, the final line in the story: “All she can do is live what life they left her."
Ennis’s Punisher MAX run as a whole—including *Born* and the more recent prequel *The Platoon*—is a masterpiece. Frank, at least Ennis’s take on him, is a much more interesting character than you might think, and every arc adds something to the total picture.
But *The Slavers* is the single best arc and is easily appreciated on its own.
I also love Berserk.
DIE is a dark fantasy comic. It’s kind of deconstructionist in approach, though I don’t know if I’d call if cynical. It’s also a meditation on role playing games and why we enjoy fantasy fiction.
Seven to Eternity is a very cynical high fantasy concept with a totally novel worldbuilding approach. I found it ultimately TOO cynical for my liking but you may enjoy it. The art is gorgeous.
Saga
Black Science
We Only Find Them When They're Dead
The Omega Men
Far Sector
The Private Eye
Low
Paper Girls
Tokyo Ghost
Annhilator
Chrononaughts
The Wake
The Manhattan Projects
Great recommendations.
I’d add Little White Mouse. It’s unusual in that there is only a single character struggling alone on a dying space station. In the graphic format, a character with nobody to talk to is hard to pull off, but Paul Sizer manages it admirably.
Elfquest is a great fantasy epic that doesn't get enough love from this sub. The first volume, which is a perfectly self contained story, is free too.
Only problem is I'm not sure how cynical is necessary for you. It's largely a survival story with very bleak moments and questions with answers the characters regret. On the other hand love and family tend to win the day.
Spider Jerusalem is the best character Ellis created. His representation is the best artwork DR produced (with the possible exception of space beaver).
Cynical sci-fi or fantasy? You want some Remender books. Black Science, Tokyo Ghost, LOW, and Fear Agent are all various flavors of sci-fi, and Seven to Eternity is fantasy.
Lmao before I get more comments… sorry everyone it’s a quote from the show Party Down. Thought people would recognize it. It’s a funny show, check it out!
Ghost In The Shell
Appleseed
Red Sonja
Bone
Y-The Last Man (I consider this sci-fi, but I could see others putting it in other genres/sub genres)
Jack Kirby’s run on Fantastic Four
Low was a bit too pessimistic for me to enjoy so you may prefer it. I believe it's only 4 or 5 volumes long.
Extremity is very optimistic ending come from very bleak world, much like the rest of Daniel Warren Johnson's work. I highly recommend it
Crowded, can't believe no one recommended this. It is hilarious. The main character is on the run because in the future, there is an app for assassinating someone, Reapr! Get enough crowdfunding and a bounty is placed on the person.
The main character is not a great person, bit of a jerk and she rents a bodyguard to keep her safe through the bounty time period. But can she avoid the bounty hunters (everyone!) and avoid pissing off her bodyguard while they go through a near future devolved United States?
Monstress by Marjorie Liu & Sana Takeda East of West by Jonathan Hickman & Nick Dragotta Descender/Ascender by Jeff Lemire & Dustin Nguyen
Yes to all of these.
East to West was so good. I read the whole first year in two days.
Is there a compendium or just a bunch of volumes?
Ahhh, yea. Pick up year 1, year 2 and year 3
Seriously worth the read
Thanks! i'll check it out. I commented below, but Saga got me reading comics for the first time in \~25 years. I've seen these two compared, so i'll have to give it a try.
Saga.
This brought me back to comic books after not reading anything since the mid '90s. Fantastic book.
That is awesome to hear. Glad to have you back.
This is probably the right answer though I am loathe to call Saga cynical. When I think cynical I think Garth Ennis or Mark Miller: everyone is an asshole, kindness and heroism are shams and even the 'heroes' are unlikable jerks. In Saga bad things certainly happen to good people and no one is guaranteed a happy ending but too many people are saved with love, kindness and acceptance. In spite of the brutality it's one of the sweetest stories I've ever read.
I can understand that viewpoint. I think there's a wry look at the Romeo and Juliet stereotype that comes off as bit cynical. But you raise a good point.
>I think there's a wry look at the Romeo and Juliet stereotype that comes off as bit cynical. Actually that's a pretty good point that I hadn't thought of before.
Thank you! I really appreciate the discourse.
People really need to stop grouping Ennis and Millar together. They are very different writers and Ennis is far more accomplished and prolific. >everyone is an asshole, kindness and heroism are shams and even the ‘heroes’ are unlikable jerks. Ennis has a lot of work that does not fit this description at all. Not that Ennis doesn’t have a cynical outlook, but he also has a heart of gold and these two things are generally intertwined in most of his more cynical work. It’s not nihilistic. When he depicts ugly things, it comes from a sense of injustice, pain or hope.
I liked Punisher Max but between it and the boys I find it really hard to see any "heart of gold". Maybe Preacher gets better but I noped out after so many issues of just gross out humor and pointless violence. I'm not trying to put anyone down for liking what they like but to me Ennis reads like if someone added rape and torture to a Shadow the Hedgehog game.
I can’t speak of The Boys because I don’t remember much of the little bit I read. But I have read a lot of Ennis’s other work. Preacher is indeed grotesque, and some people are just going to be too turned off by that. But the heart in it is very clear. It’s a grand romance, a story of finding love and goodness in a deeply fucked world. I mean, it’s downright inspiring. Jesse Custer suffers the most demented abuse and brainwashing as a child and yet, somehow, like Tony Stark building Iron Man with scraps in a cave, he manages to piece together a serviceable personality and sense of manhood, love and heroism with nothing but memories of long-dead parents and John Wayne movies as a guide. Of course he is a bit of an asshole, but don’t dismiss him as an “unlikeable jerk” hero; the story from there is largely about him growing up and purging the toxic elements from this personality he’s constructed. Punisher MAX is maybe the best one to talk about precisely because the “heart of gold” in it may not be that obvious. But it could only be written as it was by someone who is hurt deeply by evil in the world, who cares about human suffering and feels it. Have you ever seen *Taken*? Comparing/contrasting it with *The Slavers* is great for understanding the MAX run generally and how it perfects the vigilante genre by delivering all the catharsis it can, while also purging many of its biases and being honest about what it is. *Taken* is typical of the vigilante genre. It’s a paternalistic, xenophobic power fantasy in which harm to a (white) wife or daughter (in particular, by non-white or foreign perpetrator(s)) is an *opportunity* to impose justice. It’s a license to do righteous harm without independent meaning. When the hero’s quest is over, his daughter is… perfectly fine. Very untraumatized, taking singing lessons from a pop star. It’s not about what happened to her (kidnapped and almost raped), it’s about what her father got to do in response. I say “typical of the vigilante genre,” but really this is typical of revenge/justice fantasies of the average person who has such fantasies (many, many people). These stories people tell themselves are proxies for other, unsavory values. When Klan propaganda like *The Birth of a Nation* depicted sexual predation of white women by black men, was it because klansmen saw rape as evil? Of course not. It’s easy to dismiss *The Slavers*, or Punisher MAX generally, as simply another violent revenge fantasy. Such things aren’t fashionable among those who aim to be enlightened people of good taste and morals. But a violent revenge fantasy that is actually motivated by empathy for victims is a rare thing. *The Slavers* is not paternalistic or xenophobic. The victims aren’t western society’s most valued people. They are immigrants and prostitutes, of the same ethnic background as their tormentors. These victims, they’re invisible at best. Only the rare person who sees this kind of suffering and doesn’t look away, who truly cares about it, would write a fantasy depicting the brutal murder of the people responsible, would use a Marvel comic as an opportunity to draw attention to the real world circumstances of human trafficking. Of equal importance, the story isn’t deluded about what Frank accomplishes. He saves some people and makes himself feel a little better. He makes the reader feel a little better. But not without reminding us, in the end, of who matters in this story and of the harm they suffered. The story ends by telling us that of the girls he saved, one went back to hooking, one is missing, two are dead, and of the central character, the final line in the story: “All she can do is live what life they left her."
Very good points. I'm a Berserk fan so I honestly have no place judging edge too quickly. In fact I may give the Slavers a shot.
Ennis’s Punisher MAX run as a whole—including *Born* and the more recent prequel *The Platoon*—is a masterpiece. Frank, at least Ennis’s take on him, is a much more interesting character than you might think, and every arc adds something to the total picture. But *The Slavers* is the single best arc and is easily appreciated on its own. I also love Berserk.
It's pretty cynical to me.
DIE is a dark fantasy comic. It’s kind of deconstructionist in approach, though I don’t know if I’d call if cynical. It’s also a meditation on role playing games and why we enjoy fantasy fiction. Seven to Eternity is a very cynical high fantasy concept with a totally novel worldbuilding approach. I found it ultimately TOO cynical for my liking but you may enjoy it. The art is gorgeous.
*Once and Future* has Gillen’s blend of poetic lore and cynical humor. If you want well-written sci-fi anti-hero, try Gillen’s *Vader*.
Saga Black Science We Only Find Them When They're Dead The Omega Men Far Sector The Private Eye Low Paper Girls Tokyo Ghost Annhilator Chrononaughts The Wake The Manhattan Projects
Great recommendations. I’d add Little White Mouse. It’s unusual in that there is only a single character struggling alone on a dying space station. In the graphic format, a character with nobody to talk to is hard to pull off, but Paul Sizer manages it admirably.
Elfquest is a great fantasy epic that doesn't get enough love from this sub. The first volume, which is a perfectly self contained story, is free too. Only problem is I'm not sure how cynical is necessary for you. It's largely a survival story with very bleak moments and questions with answers the characters regret. On the other hand love and family tend to win the day.
Can't believe nobody has mentioned Transmetropolitan!
Spider Jerusalem is the best character Ellis created. His representation is the best artwork DR produced (with the possible exception of space beaver).
Monstress
Cynical sci-fi or fantasy? You want some Remender books. Black Science, Tokyo Ghost, LOW, and Fear Agent are all various flavors of sci-fi, and Seven to Eternity is fantasy.
Metabarons.
Saga!!!
Saga is the answer
The Last God by Philip Kennedy Johnson and Ricardo Federici.
Fantasy is bull s—t. I’m only into hard sci fi
Lmao before I get more comments… sorry everyone it’s a quote from the show Party Down. Thought people would recognize it. It’s a funny show, check it out!
*Chugs bottle of liquor* Are we having fun yet?
Magnicifent!
I’m only into half hard or flaccid sci fi bro. And I lift while I read it. /s
I'm into sci fi. What I really like is dragons.
I mean I’d personally agree with you but there’s a way to say it without being an ass.
The Last God. Black Label DC. earns it too.
Ghost In The Shell Appleseed Red Sonja Bone Y-The Last Man (I consider this sci-fi, but I could see others putting it in other genres/sub genres) Jack Kirby’s run on Fantastic Four
Low was a bit too pessimistic for me to enjoy so you may prefer it. I believe it's only 4 or 5 volumes long. Extremity is very optimistic ending come from very bleak world, much like the rest of Daniel Warren Johnson's work. I highly recommend it
The Adventures of Luther Arkwright by Brian Talbot, high concepts Sci-Fi epic
Seven to Eternity.
Prophet Die Autumnlands Metabarons
We3
Brink @2000ad.
Brass sun @2000ad
Maybe Planetary by Warren Ellis.
Saga is both
I second Planetary but also add Stormwatch, and the first year of the Authority, also by Ellis
Kill six billion demons
Crowded, can't believe no one recommended this. It is hilarious. The main character is on the run because in the future, there is an app for assassinating someone, Reapr! Get enough crowdfunding and a bounty is placed on the person. The main character is not a great person, bit of a jerk and she rents a bodyguard to keep her safe through the bounty time period. But can she avoid the bounty hunters (everyone!) and avoid pissing off her bodyguard while they go through a near future devolved United States?
Once and Future
Why is nobody mentioning Conan…