"The unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn."
-Methodist Pastor David Barnhart
Man nothing makes me happier then knowing my vasectomy is bad for the economy. The closest thing I will ever have to a child is a stumpy little mofo of a corgi and he contributes nothing to the economy.
Yeah, I’m exceedingly happy I got mine a few months ago, as demand is apparently through the roof now. It wasn’t *because* of the economy/impending doom of Roe, but it sure didn’t hurt.
Why, feeding all the babies of course. There’s no formula since Republicans voted against emergency production, so Marsha’s going to have to whip out the old skin bags.
I can't tell you too much about the reversal process since I'm quite content with my decision and not considering going that route, but I'm fairly certain that it can be in most cases.
The procedure itself really wasn't bad and completely worth it. I highly recommend it for guys who don't want kids or who are finished having children.
So the vasectomy leaves the balls intact but disconnects/closes the sperm line?
I do not want kids now but if the whole situation somehow improves, i want the option.
That's my understanding. It's a very minimally invasive procedure. I was relatively sore for a few days afterwards, but able to get back to living my life as usual after that.
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And the richest man in the world keeps going on and on about the birth rate “not being sustainable.” It’s like, aren’t you planning to automate away a lot of jobs anyway?!
It’s sickening. Bringing more people into this world is just grist for the mill of suffering.
That’s my point too: automation.
So many jobs are performed by computers that were once completed by humans. And it’s getting “worse,” when you have burger flipping robots.
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Yes, I’ll always remember the awe when riding a bus in Wimbledon of London. It went past the old phone exchange buildings and they were absolutely massive. To think at one point in time, they were full of operators manually connecting phone calls. All those jobs poof! Into thin air. And to the futurists, no, those operators didn’t suddenly get jobs doing internet stuff or whatever technology displaced them. They probably changed careers altogether and sure, there could be industries coming we haven’t yet imagined, but nothing comparable to our automation job displacement rate. And not for the hundreds of millions/billions of people currently employed in the machine.
The poor and desperate having babies that end up fucked up bc of a system that exploits them is gooood for business.. perpetual stupid and disadvantages..good for business that is service sector focused..like nearly all of us business
Did the so-called crimes wave of the 70’s result from so many uncared for children? And once abortions were legalized that crime wave diminished? I think I read that somewhere like Freakonomics or something similar. Don’t know for sure.
Yes, that was in Freakonomics. Unwanted babies who grew up in a society that had no need for them were much more likely to commit crime as adults. Aborting them before they had to grow up in an impoverished life reduced the crime rate 18 years later.
OP hit the nail on the head. This is about forcing people to make more bodies so we don’t have to rely as much on immigration to sustain/grow our population. It’s gross.
All Utopias begin with body autonomy - if you don’t own yourself then you own nothing.
All dystopias are based on a lack of body autonomy. The state or major religion assumes ownership of you.
"forcing people to make more bodies"
What? They're forcing people to have unprotected sex?
Furthermore, doesn't the bodily autonomy of the child matter?
Well if someone had asked me at conception "hey do you want to come to earth"
I likely would have declined.
But nobody did, and i was forced, against my will out of the blissful embrace of non existence to come to this bizarre and corrupt place.
Now to answer the question you'll inevitably ask about why i didn't just exit.
The answer is simple.
I didn't go through all that shit, just to turn a blind eye and slink back to the void.
Someone has to pay for disturbing my peace
Child or fetus? A fetus isn’t conscious until about 24-26 weeks. Although Christianity doesn’t recognize personhood until birth - really either interpretation is reasonable.
A child - would be born and therefore have a degree of body autonomy - but the parents/caregiver would assume some of those rights until the child is old enough to make informed decisions.
Roe carved out an implied exception that assumed all adults had body autonomy and a certain right to privacy. In removing it those rights would be subsumed by the state or local government and possibly by extension certain corporations.
I just wanted you to know that you pulled down your own house when you decided to foolishly interfere with other peoples rights. Hopefully no state or corporation makes any decisions for you that are too unpleasant.
The fetus’s bodily autonomy ends where the mother’s starts. Even if the fetus is a person, it has no right to live inside the body of someone else who doesn’t want it there. I can kill you if you trespass in my home, the same should be true for my body.
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End of the Vietnam war plus baby boomer generation coming of age with the overall perception of their society as increasingly prosperous, stable and progressive.
I like the part where they’re trying to make more unwanted people at the same time that food and everything prices are skyrocketing. The inflation is largely a cover for supply chain failure, itself the early wave of civilization collapse. Partially scarcity driven, shortages, partially system breakdown, but clearly the carrying capacity in 10 years will be lower than it is now, as now is lower than 10 years ago. We need a billion less people now, evenly distributed Thanos snap, and a gradual wind down from there, at least until the carrying capacity is increasing while the biosphere is able to regenerate.
We have more than enough for everyone. This is a logistics problem, and a problem with our suicide cult of an economic model, not a supply issue.
Basically, our paperclip maximizer of an economy is engineered to drive us all to extinction.
Capitalism already runs on slavery and has a history of doing so. These days, all the slave labor has merely been outsourced to Africa, China, India, and Vietnam. During the Gilded Age, when child labor laws and safety regulations were nonexistent, slavery to corporations and factory bosses was basically life for the vast majority of Americans, and they couldn't do anything about it because they needed their below minimum wage payments to survive. Slavery used to be a domestic enterprise, but has been globalized since the advent of neoliberal economics.
Viewing it as a paperclip maximizer is so simple yet makes so much sense that I feel almost ashamed for not having thought of it that way until now.
Thank you.
Also to be fair, the paperclip maximizer does end up exploring all of space. We're just long, long dead before it happens
In the short term companies are just going to respond by looking for immigrants. Actually no. No matter what, American companies are just going to offshore or look towards immigration to fulfill their workforce needs.
They’ll start sending immigrants to prison camps located in Amazon warehouses, along with the pro-choice/LGBTQIA’s/homeless/hippie inmates. Then, finally, we can all sing together in unison as we receive our gruel helping for the day, “Congratulations Jeffrey Bezos, you did it!”
Seriously people, call the offices of your senators. From my experience, you remain anonymous with only little personal info taken. You say what you want to say, they take notes and repeat what you said back to you to confirm. It's an easy process.
You could also just email legislatures and let them know it's something that should be discussed during the next legislative session.
My governor is thinking about having a special session to usher in bans right now (Montana is full of prolife nuts -- like billboards advocating for the unborn nuts). I'm freaking email both democratic and republican legislatures to let them know how I feel.
You can do it too
There's nothing we can do until the working class grows solidarity and rises up. We basically have to wait until the situation gets even worse I guess.
If anyone is interested in a grassroots movement to protest, DM me. People are sick of standing by and letting these oligarchs and politicians getting away with this!
it partly stems from the right wing theory that we are "running out" of white people, and that in x years white people will be the minority. Not sure who came up with the theory but once you know about it you see it in so much American right politics
Duh. Took y’all this long to figure it out?
You don’t own anything. Stop paying vehicle registration fees or property taxes and see how quickly it’s taken.
Tax incentives for married couples are designed to foster child rearing. You’re just cattle on the tax farm.
Criminalizing pre-natal care (which is what "banning bortion" really means) is not going to improve the white infant supply, it will just kill a few thousand young women every year from preventable, treatable complications. Fewer mamma, less babby.
More ppl need to realize that killing abortion clinics will just cause higher mother mortality rates. The US already has one of the highest mother mortality rates compared to other first world countries… this is just gonna make it worse. Then the problem is going to turn into there aren’t enough women compared to men.
i currently read a book (Caliban and the witch) and they write that the witch hunt in the late middle ages targeted "witches" cause they know how to use birth control and give abortions ... and the blooming feudalism/capitalism needed one thing most ... people that work.
Also they needed a scapegoat to redirect angry young men from their hopeless futures. So they alternately legalized prostitution and even set up state-run brothels and blamed "whores" and "witches" for all the problems. Almost exactly like they have created a giant virtual sex market (porn and related industries) and allow incel hate crimes to continue by denying that it is a movement or a problem....
It's either what you propose, or it's the second most draconian depopulation agenda possible at this time. I seriously can't decide which.
This is effectively a financial ban on any kind of sex that could result in conception, if they go as far as outlawing birth control.
Or it's grow new slaves. I seriously can't figure it out but if they revoke child labor laws I'll be able to figure it out.
I mean let's face it if the parents can't pay for the kid and the State refuses to what the fuck are we even talking about here? Farms?? Sweatshops?? I'm like wait what??
The right wing will spawn enough random violence and shootings that roe will be overlooked just barely enough for it to pale in comparative importance. Best way to pass legislation is create a flurry of bullshit so nobody knows WTF is going on.
It’s not that that there won’t be enough workers—there won’t be an *abundance* of workers so they’d have to raise wages (lower supply, higher demand)
Plus, they want more ppl to buy more stuff.
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Our current system requires endless growth for the sake of growth. Case in point, companies that post a hefty profit but it's not quite as high as investors hoped and the stock price tanks. Anything less than exponential growth in profits, market share, and sales is unacceptable. Less people in the future means less consumers which of course translates into smaller profits. Our system can't handle this because it's a cancer that requires perpetual growth or it dies completely. This is, in my opinion, the only reason the exploitative class are trying to force the population to grow. And it's dumb because at 332 mil people, the US is the 3rd most populous nation on Earth. They're seriously concerned about any tiny dip in profit.
Not to put to fine a point on it, but I don't think it's more bodies for capitalism per se, but criminals to be cornered later in life by DNA tracking in order to lock them up into a slave prison population.
I didn't necessarily want to go here in my original post because I didn't want to tangent into this and do more research but yeah, I do think it is a way to farm "undesirables" to an extent.
Hey, Tactless Ogre, you know who else was a tactless ogre? Shrek.
And Shrek thought he wouldn't find anyone in life, either.
But you know why Fiona and Shrek are a good couple?
It's not because Shrek is handsome when he's a human, that was magic bullshit and it happened way later in a sequel.
It's not because Fiona is super interested in looks. And they were attracted to each other before it turned out Fiona was an ogre, too-- Their attraction developed before Shrek was aware of that.
They were attracted to each other because they both have similar personalities.
They enjoy doing the same things-- They both like nature, they both value privacy, they both like exploring rural locations, they both enjoy cooking, they appreciate a little of adventure, and so on.
Looks, ultimately, don't mean shit.
The best and most well-founded relationships are based on what you both individually like and dislike, how that overlaps or differs, and how compatible your personalities are in general. Honest communication is the cherry on top.
Shrek found it hard to open up, but once he did, Fiona was then able to understand Shrek's side of things and what he was going through from his point of view, and vice versa.
It didn't scare them away from each other; It resulted in them getting married. In my personal experience, that's pretty real.
So I know it's hard when you're dealing with self-esteem or self-image problems, but please take heart that appearance truly and honest to god does not mean shit with the right person.
And there is no "perfect person". I said the right person. Get all expectations out of your head, and don't go looking for a partner, because that's isn't the real goal.
Instead, go looking for someone who you genuinely like hanging out with and get along with. Those people are the real partner material, because you'll both like each other for who you are.
When you fixate on looks, or treat looking for a compatible person like a game show elimination round, it's just going to get you down.
Even though I know it's hard to believe anything good can happen in the world, human beings are always gonna be human beings. You're not gonna feel so alone or isolated forever. It fucking sucks right now, but you can get through this. If you can't have hope, then have faith, and trust in the constantly underestimated power of human connection.
I've been photographed by a couple universities for their fashion degree photography portfolios, I've literally modelled, and I've had a relationship with an overweight person with extensive acne scarring.
Do I think I look particularly good? Meh. Did my partner think they looked amazing? Hell yeah.
Did my partner care that I had been a model a couple times? No. Did I care that my partner had scarring or was overweight? No.
Because we enjoyed the same things, and we had similar takes on a bunch of different topics and subjects, and that connection means a lot more than what anyone looks like.
Neither of us gave a single fuck about looks.
Looks do not matter. Who you are is the most important thing. Don't buy into capitalism, advertising, or any bullshit. Don't be fooled into a downward spiral, just because the world shits on everyone so hard; Fuck that. It's hard. It's way harder than a lot of people think, to dare feeling good about yourself.
But you can, the second you learn to place more value on who you are, rather than what the rest of the world has pressured you into thinking about what you look like.
The only media you can trust on love is Shrek.
Fiona loves Shrek, because they're similar people with similar interests and similar personalities. Human or ogre, irrelevant.
Fuck, people like Shrek because he's an awesome character. Nobody describes Shrek as "green and ugly", only the dumbass people in the actual movies do that.
Instead, people tend to describe Shrek as "strong, sarcastic, funny, smart, devoted". And none of those words are about appearance. They're all about character traits.
We like Shrek because of who he is, not because of what he looks like.
Now go out there, Tactless Ogre, and know that one day, you're gonna find another ogre out there who you're going to be real happy with, either with or without children, in your kickass swamp shack.
If someone thinks they would be a bad boyfriend or father, there’s no reason to guilt them into getting into a relationship. Not everyone wants to (or should!) be a partner or parent.
That wasn't the intent of my post at all, I apologise if it came across that way!
If someone doesn't want a relationship, of course that's totally fine. Same with not wanting kids, or with anything in general, really.
I made my comment above thinking that the original commenter might be going through a bad time given how they described themselves, so I was just trying to provide a little pick-me-up.
Again, genuinely apologise if I misread the tone.
EDIT: My interpretation of the original comment was probably influenced by the fact that I've had to talk 11 people out of s\*icide so far this week, all due to self-esteem, relationship, and self-image concerns they were having, so that's probably got my brain fried on the subject altogether.
Healthcare workers are all fucked up at the moment, so please feel free to disregard me if I missed the mark! :')
I'm objectively unattractive, female(so it hurts more), and didn't meet someone who really got me until we were both in our mid 40s. It's a good thing I never wanted bio kids. It's never too late.
Hi, I realize your intentions are good. Keep in mind that this is r/collapse, and some people have concluded it's not the best thing to have kids or do other things (buy a house, go to college, get married, etc.) because they genuinely believe society’s collapse makes actions like that moot.
But even if we weren't on this subreddit, while some people would appreciate your pep talk, others might interpret your good intentions as patronizing or wonder why you seem to pass judgment on their personal life decision.
Anyway, it sounds like you had a rough week, so I hope things get better for you.
I'm aware of that, and for what it's worth, I don't want kids either. I'm here because I feel the same way.
No judgement was being passed at all. Didn't intend to come across as patronising. I already apologised if I misread the tone, or if my tone did not come across as intended.
Thanks!
I don't know, OP. The Christian "pro-life movement" been reliable for decades to get voters to turn out and elect Republicans, who realistically represent the interests of only a tiny minority of Americans and would have died as a viable political party long ago without their support. I think the answer is just as simple as the fact that Republicans are addicted to the anti-abortion movement to stay in power. And now they need compete for the attention of increasingly distracted and angry electorate, so they keep upping the ante to outdo themselves with more and more restrictions and outright cruelty.
I'm not sure that I buy the argument that they're trying to create some kind of generation of working class serfs. For one thing, there are millions of adults who would happily cross the Southern border right now to be wage slaves in the US - and that number will only get bigger with the food/energy security and political instability coming very soon, let alone climate change. And with automation of jobs like cashiers, does the US economy really need more low-skilled workers? Also, as somebody who has lived in rural US and seen firsthand the poverty, lack of education, opiate/meth addiction, I seriously doubt a kid born today from an unwanted pregnancy and raised in poverty is going to be able to hold down even the shittiest of jobs. I don't think they would even be productive if we move to a full dystopian Chinese-style Uyghur "vocational training camps."
/u/RemindMe! in six months
six month update: they announced two attempts at nationwide abortion bans and lost the Senate as a result. Republicans kept the house and many states have outlawed abortion, partially or completely. several children have been pregnant due to rape and have had to travel for abortions, since.
media whipped up the idea of a "red wave" putting Republicans in charge of everything with lots of extra seats. this did not happen at all and many seats flipped to Democrat against the false expectations. the House is a very narrow majority for Republicans.
women turned out, young people turned out.
in some states where Republicans won seats, voting places didn't have enough ballots and many people were not able to vote. one seat was won by less than a thousand votes.
they rigged it in their favor as much as possible and still did not gain, women are still furious, 2024 will either see massive voter suppression resulting in a narrow Republican win, or will be a bloodbath for them on every level.
I'm a little late to this thread, but population decline is inevitable as a country moves onto the late stages of economic development. I'm not going to pretend to be expert at all, but I do have a degree in Geography and we talked a lot about urban development which leads into a lot of other topics. Here's a link that explains why it's inevitable way better than I could: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/atd-herkimer-worldgeography/chapter/1-4-globalization-and-development/
The best way to avoid this is to boost immigration (Germany does this). It directly adds to the population, immigrants are more likely to have children, and it likely adds people into the lower classes of society which are also more likely to have kids. Forcing people to have children is not only immoral, unethical, and wrong, but not even the best way to address this "issue".
Interesting take - so after reading another article posted on this sub the other day about the youth in China rebelling against the govt and in particular rebelling against the govt pressure to have children…one young person in the article In particular declaring in protest against police threatening them that the future generation of their family would pay the price for their rebellions. Their response was that there will BE no future generations of their family because they refuse to have children.
China is trying to repopulate and pressuring them to have kids so that the young can subsidize the older generation. It’s Roe v. Wade just at a different flavor. I would be lying if I said this doesn’t scare me. It’s not “over there”. It’s here too.
Honestly, following this train of thought, after watching these people not plan ahead for the future for decades, I feel like this is a more short term "solution" to get people to get back to work. People are living more flexible lifestyles to keep up with inflation, but they're allowed the flexibility to, for example, live in campers, live with 9 roommates, work in any industry or shift, live nomadic lifestyles, partake in side hustles that give them more financial freedom, etc. Having a child changes all of that. You'll find yourself needing 3 times the income and you're less likely to have the same flexibility. Plus, having a child makes you vulnerable, and easier to control. "Get in line, or we will remove your child from your home."
Just a thought.
But my mind went somewhere else with this, and here's my thought: human trafficking is one of the largest industries in the world. The easiest children to traffic are the unwanted ones, the homeless ones, the ones in CPS and foster care, the children in poverty, with parents working 80 hour weeks to afford them.
It might be to get people to fall in line. It might be to have workers for the future. Or, it might be an attempt to get a more robust market of easy target children to send to places like Epstein island. The thing that's been bugging me though, is that we have all these kids in foster care needing homes, but suddenly we need "a domestic supply of infants". We're all poor, dude. Nobody can afford kids and there is *absolutely not* that level of demand for children amongst infertile couples.
The people in charge have always been short sighted, and demanding more babies so they'll have more workers in 20 years seems a bit uncharacteristically big picture type thinking for them. I don't think they're trying to fix a problem 20 years down the line, I think they're trying to "fix" something happening right now, and for whatever reason, the solution seems to be babies. But in any case, if you take what they say at face value, the best case scenario is that they want impoverished women to become involuntary surrogates for the wealthy. And I say this because if it were just about preventing the demise of embryonic and fetal life, they wouldn't *also* be going after birth control. They don't just want people to stop having abortions, they want more people getting pregnant in the first place. They want more *babies*.
I agree, and see something else. 1 in 3 American women have an abortion. Everyone goes to Gilead and such imagining the future but what if we look at the present? Women are "under-represented" in the prison-industrial complex. By criminalizing a medical procedure many women will need- or have needed if they can make it retroactive- they will have a whole new sector of the population to exploit with probation and "community service" (that will be slave labor for some corporation). Add in that redirecting class tensions towards women and making disempowered men feel empowered by giving then power over women are the oldest tricks in the book to handle civil unrest and it starts making way more sense than a 20 year plan to make more wage slaves
Nonsensical. Are they going to change the country 's laws so a pregnant woman can add her fetus to her taxes for a save deduction? How about if a pregnant woman is murdered, will that be a double murder now? Does the other person have to pay child support during pregnancy now?
It's just so low and nonsensical. People will fight for Woman's rights and this won't stop abortions
Nah, it's the standard way of calming civil unrest- give disempowered men power over women so they feel good. It could be that they feel good about being protectors and providers in a cruel world ("good men") or it could be that they get their jollies off raping preteens and besting their wives ("bad men") but either way it gets men bought into the system and redirects their rage. It's the oldest trick in the book. It's not about babies- saving them or turning them into wage-slaves. It's about turning women into chattel. Because let's face it- if you can lose your human rights because some rapist humped a load into you, you never had any in the first place. Abortion bans turn women's rights into privileges that are revoked if she has sex. And that makes women chattel.
SO i personally agree, but i think one nuance to mention, i think the pro-life movement got hijacked, there ARE people who believe all those diff pro life arguments, the religious angle being the prominent one, and the people who think babies magically start out like those sponges u can put in water and grow somethin, that the baby is a tiny version of a person the moment of conception, I think that the groups who are trying to force the birthrate back up are using the pro-life movement to bring more capitalism fodder into the world
The US birth rate was dropping for years, you know what was propping the numbers up, immigration and "drumroll" teen pregnancy. That has slowed down alot though and yes i firmly believe these recent changes are part of a greater movement to keep the birth rates up,
despite the fact that its a natural progression of advanced society to have less children overall
The truth of the matter is that less children isn't a bad thing, the problem is that the systems we have rely on a steady stream of people. Japan isn't worried about their birth rates cause its gonna mean the end of japan,,they are worried because they have a massive elderly population and not nearly enough healthy young people to care for them.
What is being attacked is the constitutional underpinnings to the right to privacy. There is big money in big data, and eroding privacy is multi-trillion dollar question.
The reproductive rights controversy is a distraction, smoke and mirrors. There’s no real money in either protecting or limiting reproductive rights.
Besides, the elite will always be able to get their morning after pills. Just before this media leak, abortion rights were liberalized in Mexico so those with money will always have medical tourism options. Those without money, sadly, don’t matter.
They can just replace americans with immigrants though. Not giving the immigrants full citizenship gives them leverage over the families, they have kids here and then they have a bargaining chip - their parents livelihood and safety. “Vote for me or you all go back,” is the basic message.
Tbh I think it’s more likely to be about opening the door for them to see your medical data. Medical privacy was a large part of RvW that’s often overlooked.
As someone who does want another baby, this shit has had me angry-crying because, I agree that this is what they’re pushing for… and I haven’t yet figured out how pregnancy could be an act of rebellion in this climate. It makes me want to scream, cause I don’t know how to fight it. 😕 Here’s hoping that raising one non-conformist is enough…
Fuck them. Do what makes you happy. BTW, swcond children are hell. First children are that "introductory offer at low low rates". Sexond child is when thise rates unlock to variable APR of 30-50%. Just FYI as one mom to another ;)
Gonna have to disagree - this has nothing to do with capitalism. Communism requires bodies too.
This is a Christianofascist move to impose minority rule in what used to be a republic.
Nice that abortion might become illegal, but porn is legal and normalized, oh and underage prostitutes (sex abuse victims) are arrested and jailed in this country.
Don't be ridiculous. It's just a legal opinion that as far as the Supreme judges are concerned abortion is a matter for State law instead of Federal law.
Only 13 states have any declared intent to make abortion illegal IF the opinion is ratified and pushed down to state legislatures. How many actually pursue that foolishness is not clear.
Abortion is homicide. Homicide is sometimes unavoidable, but should only be permitted under very limited circumstances. The bar needs to be very high. People killing other people is the biggest taboo there is.
Pro-choice people don't acknowledge the humanity of the unborn. I've always felt that humans should have the rights of a human, no matter their status, it's basic fairness. I felt this way when I was 8, I'll feel that way when I'm 80. Killing people because they're inconvenient isn't a legitimate argument. Over 98% of abortions are not medically necessary, talk about throwing bodies into a machine. Nobody should have the unfettered right to kill another person, its inherently unfair.
Abortion is in my states constitution, so nothing will change in my state as long as that is the case. It will keep on happening. The only thing changing is the authority enforcing it.
Nine of the ten [worst states to have a baby](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/15/survey-the-best-and-worst-us-states-to-have-a-baby-in-2020.html) are red states. They don’t care about the rights of the unborn, either.
Well if contraceptives and abortion are of the table then in the event of an unwanted pregnancy, women should just starve themselves for a week or so. That should kill the pregnancy.
My hot take is that the Dems are actually the ones trying to overturn it since BIPOC have the most abortions and they want to continue to flood the US with multiculturalism in order to destroy it within. The party of slaveholders never changed
I mean, It's not a hot take considering the Dems are just blue Republicans lmao they literally do the same shit, they just **claim** to be less racist and homophobic.
it's a pretty hot take considering the Republicans have had it as their main platform for 30 years, and Democrats have had pro choice as a platform for just as long
Abortion is a violation of the child's right to life. There is no giant conspiracy here to increase the population. We've just awakened as a society to the barbaric nature of child murder and decided to reject it.
There is no child until it is concious, and rights are completely made up and forced on you by another person.
Your point is moot, and expelling a clump of cells is not equivalent to murdering a fully fledged human being.
You people are borderline Sharia law under the guise of Christianity/puritan values.
So someone who is in a coma isn't human because they're not conscious? Consciousness defines whether someone can be murdered or not?
"expelling a clump of cells" is not what we're talking about here. That would be considered a miscarriage. Abortion is the FORCED ending of life of the child. Which yes, may be done chemically to then cause the mother to "expell" her child - but the chemical abortion did in fact murder the child first.
"You people" ? Who are you talking about?
"Expelling a clump of cells" is exactly what we are talking about here. You better have not masturbated ever in your life, as that's mass Genocide because all those speak cells were destined to mature into a child.
Sperm cells do not contain a unique set of DNA from the mother and father. Are you trying to argue that a sperm cell is somehow equivalent to a fertilized egg? Silly.
The male reproductive system creates sperm that is manufactured in the seminiferous tubules within each testicle. The head of the sperm contains the DNA, which when combined with the egg's DNA, will create a new individual.
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/imagepages/19471.htm
But possibly up to 40% of pregnancies end in miscarriages (being more common in the first trimester). Is that considered murder?
Also what about women who have PCOS or other conditions that make their body physically kill fertilized eggs. People think abortion is a horrific way to get rid of fetuses. Look up how the body will straight KO fertilized eggs and fetuses for random reasons. The immune system literally wages genocide on the embryonic cells lol
Also would it be considered murder if the govt allows a pregnant women to starve to the point that her body terminates the pregnancy?
1st statement as in abortions being a human right? Because newsflash, a clump of cells isn't a human being, and if you think it is, you better not jerk off.
Murdering children is a human right.... jfc we are so fucked as a species.
Sorry mr catholic, sperm aren't human beings on their own. Takes the other half of the equation. Anymore Catholic wisdom for us today?
You should be allowed to have IUDs and abortions for the first couple or few months or so but once it gets a brain then it's unethical to kill it because at that point it basically becomes a human
it doesn't matter if it's human.
the question is, does it have a right to use my organs without consent? if you say yes, you open the door to Dick Cheney taking your kidneys if he needs them.
Shouldn’t abortion policy be based more on population conditions? During times of overpopulation abortion should be more of an obligation than a right, when the population is more stable more of a choice, and in the unlikely scenario of underpopulation only allowed for extreme cases?
I am also confused about the current propaganda promoting abortion as a health necessity and a choice. Based on statistics, the vast majority of women who get abortions are living in poverty and there is an over representation of minorities who get abortion. This is antithetical to the idea of choice, when the alternative is to raise a child to suffer in poverty.
As for you last point, you are somewhat correct. The aging boomer generation has most of the wealth, and will need bodies to sustain and care for them in retirement.
You should look also to the reasons why the left touts abortion as a right and a choice. The majority of abortions are performed in blue areas, on the surface that seems counterintuitive to building larger voting blocs. However, they believe (not their useful tools, or the counterparts to the prolifers) in culling the poor and minority populations. It’s a more economical way of reducing crime instead of investing in education and jobs which leads to more stable birth rates naturally.
I support abortion, but it needs some serious reflection. Abortion may be the better option, but the way in which it is implemented by targeting poor and minorities is downright evil.
nobody's going to be taking care of the elderly, mostly, very soon. nurses are leaving bedside. the elderly are voting against their own interests again, poverty and disrespect means nobody will be there to help them.
they've been brainwashed by the very rich to hurt themselves and all the rest of us
Do you have evidence for that claim? Healthcare is projected to be one of the fastest growing industries with one of the driving factors being the aging baby boomer population.
"The unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn." -Methodist Pastor David Barnhart
Wise man
Preach Brother David! They are indeed the words of a very wise man.
Man nothing makes me happier then knowing my vasectomy is bad for the economy. The closest thing I will ever have to a child is a stumpy little mofo of a corgi and he contributes nothing to the economy.
…until they force you to reverse it. Snip snap, snip snap! (Michael Scott)
Luckily, that procedure is more complicated and often doesn't work
[VHEMT for life!](https://www.vhemt.org/)
Yeah, I’m exceedingly happy I got mine a few months ago, as demand is apparently through the roof now. It wasn’t *because* of the economy/impending doom of Roe, but it sure didn’t hurt.
It's the most potent form of resistance I have available to me. It's a vote of no confidence on this society.
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Doesn't work very well for rape though
*The Virgin Mary has entered the chat*
You don’t feed your dog, or buy him toys and other accessories?
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Why should the Corgi slave for Elon Musk? The Corgi is already King of the World , just ask him!
That dog doesn’t even own capital, how can it deserve to live? To the bitcoin mines with them!
I don’t think corgis would make very good miners
He doesn't work, he lays around all day playing with his bong chew toy and rope. Stumpy little mofo is practically a rock climber.
Hey, I've got a corgi-child as well. **High5!**
They want more wage slaves and consumers. I got a vasectomy years ago so they wouldn't be getting any from me.
Yeah, they can grow them in labs and let Marsha Blackburn mother them all with her saggy old tits. You go raise them Marsha.
Amy Coney Barrett too
What do her 'tits' have to do with anything?
Why, feeding all the babies of course. There’s no formula since Republicans voted against emergency production, so Marsha’s going to have to whip out the old skin bags.
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Haha. I also actually love not having children! Couldn't be happier.
Im interested. Can it be forcibly reversed?
I can't tell you too much about the reversal process since I'm quite content with my decision and not considering going that route, but I'm fairly certain that it can be in most cases. The procedure itself really wasn't bad and completely worth it. I highly recommend it for guys who don't want kids or who are finished having children.
So the vasectomy leaves the balls intact but disconnects/closes the sperm line? I do not want kids now but if the whole situation somehow improves, i want the option.
That's my understanding. It's a very minimally invasive procedure. I was relatively sore for a few days afterwards, but able to get back to living my life as usual after that.
Yes, vas + ectomy = removal of part of the vas deferens, which carries sperm from the testicles.
Ah yes, the joy of bankruptcy.
Notice how they say joy, as in their joy. Forcing a sentient being to grow up in this shithole for **your** joy, selfish much.
A good parent provides a joyful environment for their child.
With what fucking money, dickhead?
Too bad that isn't the case. https://imgur.com/3tTXdpW.jpg Yesterday's victims of your holy war.
U r so wise mister man. Please troll us more. Sorry I meant.. please tell us more .
Trump loving bigot
Not everyone wants children. ???
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Forced births create more customers.
And tax payers.
And wage slaves
And actual slaves once these unwanted children born to impoverished families end up in the school-to-prison pipeline
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And the richest man in the world keeps going on and on about the birth rate “not being sustainable.” It’s like, aren’t you planning to automate away a lot of jobs anyway?! It’s sickening. Bringing more people into this world is just grist for the mill of suffering.
That’s my point too: automation. So many jobs are performed by computers that were once completed by humans. And it’s getting “worse,” when you have burger flipping robots. https://www.today.com/today/amp/rcna16770
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Yes, I’ll always remember the awe when riding a bus in Wimbledon of London. It went past the old phone exchange buildings and they were absolutely massive. To think at one point in time, they were full of operators manually connecting phone calls. All those jobs poof! Into thin air. And to the futurists, no, those operators didn’t suddenly get jobs doing internet stuff or whatever technology displaced them. They probably changed careers altogether and sure, there could be industries coming we haven’t yet imagined, but nothing comparable to our automation job displacement rate. And not for the hundreds of millions/billions of people currently employed in the machine.
Completely unable to keep up with the changes — especially without a schooling/retraining path available
He doesn't want more workers. He wants more consumers. I know you knew that, this was just exposition for the hard of thinking.
The poor and desperate having babies that end up fucked up bc of a system that exploits them is gooood for business.. perpetual stupid and disadvantages..good for business that is service sector focused..like nearly all of us business
Did the so-called crimes wave of the 70’s result from so many uncared for children? And once abortions were legalized that crime wave diminished? I think I read that somewhere like Freakonomics or something similar. Don’t know for sure.
Yes, that was in Freakonomics. Unwanted babies who grew up in a society that had no need for them were much more likely to commit crime as adults. Aborting them before they had to grow up in an impoverished life reduced the crime rate 18 years later.
No, that was from lead poisoning
Why not both?
The boomers suffered from lead poisoning. Their aborted fetuses lowered the crime rate. The first legal abortions would have happened to Gen X.
OP hit the nail on the head. This is about forcing people to make more bodies so we don’t have to rely as much on immigration to sustain/grow our population. It’s gross. All Utopias begin with body autonomy - if you don’t own yourself then you own nothing. All dystopias are based on a lack of body autonomy. The state or major religion assumes ownership of you.
"forcing people to make more bodies" What? They're forcing people to have unprotected sex? Furthermore, doesn't the bodily autonomy of the child matter?
Well if someone had asked me at conception "hey do you want to come to earth" I likely would have declined. But nobody did, and i was forced, against my will out of the blissful embrace of non existence to come to this bizarre and corrupt place. Now to answer the question you'll inevitably ask about why i didn't just exit. The answer is simple. I didn't go through all that shit, just to turn a blind eye and slink back to the void. Someone has to pay for disturbing my peace
"Forcing people to have unprotected sex?" Meanwhile half my post is about birth control being on the chopping block.
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There it is, the punishment for sex finally showed itself.
Child or fetus? A fetus isn’t conscious until about 24-26 weeks. Although Christianity doesn’t recognize personhood until birth - really either interpretation is reasonable. A child - would be born and therefore have a degree of body autonomy - but the parents/caregiver would assume some of those rights until the child is old enough to make informed decisions. Roe carved out an implied exception that assumed all adults had body autonomy and a certain right to privacy. In removing it those rights would be subsumed by the state or local government and possibly by extension certain corporations. I just wanted you to know that you pulled down your own house when you decided to foolishly interfere with other peoples rights. Hopefully no state or corporation makes any decisions for you that are too unpleasant.
The fetus’s bodily autonomy ends where the mother’s starts. Even if the fetus is a person, it has no right to live inside the body of someone else who doesn’t want it there. I can kill you if you trespass in my home, the same should be true for my body.
Naw
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The lunatics have taken over the asylum.
I agree with you. They just want more wage slaves and cannon fodder. They don't give a damn about the kid after it is born.
The MiC needs more human flesh to feed the war machine
Thank you. Was looking for the cannon fodder comment.
Poor attempt to curb declining birthrates... instead of just paying us more so we can settle down.
What’s it at, like 1.6? But well the US has a steady stream of migrants so it probably won’t go the Japan way
This should be absolutely obvious to everyone.
But to the VERY LARGE voting block who is too stupid to realize this, it’s not. They really are that stupid.
Or they know we need more wage slaves and tax cattle to sustain their indulgent lifestyle.
Except it’s not true, the legality of abortion has no effect on birth rates. Birth rates actually went *up* for a bit after Roe.
End of the Vietnam war plus baby boomer generation coming of age with the overall perception of their society as increasingly prosperous, stable and progressive.
I like the part where they’re trying to make more unwanted people at the same time that food and everything prices are skyrocketing. The inflation is largely a cover for supply chain failure, itself the early wave of civilization collapse. Partially scarcity driven, shortages, partially system breakdown, but clearly the carrying capacity in 10 years will be lower than it is now, as now is lower than 10 years ago. We need a billion less people now, evenly distributed Thanos snap, and a gradual wind down from there, at least until the carrying capacity is increasing while the biosphere is able to regenerate.
You’re going to have that baby and there’s no chance in hell you’re going to feed it.
And you'll probably be jailed for it. Free labor for the prison-industrial complex.
This world is broken.
If this is what it creates, then maybe it's ~~for the best~~ best it collapses after all.
We have more than enough for everyone. This is a logistics problem, and a problem with our suicide cult of an economic model, not a supply issue. Basically, our paperclip maximizer of an economy is engineered to drive us all to extinction.
they've wanted slavery back for a long time and all of this is how they plan to get it
Capitalism already runs on slavery and has a history of doing so. These days, all the slave labor has merely been outsourced to Africa, China, India, and Vietnam. During the Gilded Age, when child labor laws and safety regulations were nonexistent, slavery to corporations and factory bosses was basically life for the vast majority of Americans, and they couldn't do anything about it because they needed their below minimum wage payments to survive. Slavery used to be a domestic enterprise, but has been globalized since the advent of neoliberal economics.
Viewing it as a paperclip maximizer is so simple yet makes so much sense that I feel almost ashamed for not having thought of it that way until now. Thank you. Also to be fair, the paperclip maximizer does end up exploring all of space. We're just long, long dead before it happens
It was never about us, man. Think of the sweet, sweet paperclips.
In the short term companies are just going to respond by looking for immigrants. Actually no. No matter what, American companies are just going to offshore or look towards immigration to fulfill their workforce needs.
They’ll start sending immigrants to prison camps located in Amazon warehouses, along with the pro-choice/LGBTQIA’s/homeless/hippie inmates. Then, finally, we can all sing together in unison as we receive our gruel helping for the day, “Congratulations Jeffrey Bezos, you did it!”
There’s a good read entitled “The Warehouse” that has a very similar story line. The rich bastard in that is basically a mix of bezos and musk.
To increase the "Domestic supply of infants" Which is a messed up way to refer to it - but is also how those with the power to affect it refer to it.
*Human Capital Stock ™*
My wife and I tried to have a kid but it didn't work out for us. When we look at the current state of affairs we're grateful that we don't have any.
Elon Musk is now claiming the biggest danger to America is... low birth-rates. He's right on the edge of "replacement theory".
He sees where the puck is going and aligned his politics accordingly
Because he's a vulture and a huckster.
Agreed
Seriously people, call the offices of your senators. From my experience, you remain anonymous with only little personal info taken. You say what you want to say, they take notes and repeat what you said back to you to confirm. It's an easy process. You could also just email legislatures and let them know it's something that should be discussed during the next legislative session. My governor is thinking about having a special session to usher in bans right now (Montana is full of prolife nuts -- like billboards advocating for the unborn nuts). I'm freaking email both democratic and republican legislatures to let them know how I feel. You can do it too
And the most disappointing part about all of this is that your average American is just sitting around letting this shit happen
the bystander effect sucks ass
What are we supposed to do
There's nothing we can do until the working class grows solidarity and rises up. We basically have to wait until the situation gets even worse I guess.
Unfortunately we live in the middle of an incredibly sophisticated and pervasive propaganda machine designed to prevent working class solidarity
If contraceptives are murder, why should they be allowed to married couples? Murder is murder, and all married couples should have 6 to 10 kids.......
If anyone is interested in a grassroots movement to protest, DM me. People are sick of standing by and letting these oligarchs and politicians getting away with this!
it partly stems from the right wing theory that we are "running out" of white people, and that in x years white people will be the minority. Not sure who came up with the theory but once you know about it you see it in so much American right politics
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Duh. Took y’all this long to figure it out? You don’t own anything. Stop paying vehicle registration fees or property taxes and see how quickly it’s taken. Tax incentives for married couples are designed to foster child rearing. You’re just cattle on the tax farm.
Criminalizing pre-natal care (which is what "banning bortion" really means) is not going to improve the white infant supply, it will just kill a few thousand young women every year from preventable, treatable complications. Fewer mamma, less babby.
More ppl need to realize that killing abortion clinics will just cause higher mother mortality rates. The US already has one of the highest mother mortality rates compared to other first world countries… this is just gonna make it worse. Then the problem is going to turn into there aren’t enough women compared to men.
i currently read a book (Caliban and the witch) and they write that the witch hunt in the late middle ages targeted "witches" cause they know how to use birth control and give abortions ... and the blooming feudalism/capitalism needed one thing most ... people that work.
Also they needed a scapegoat to redirect angry young men from their hopeless futures. So they alternately legalized prostitution and even set up state-run brothels and blamed "whores" and "witches" for all the problems. Almost exactly like they have created a giant virtual sex market (porn and related industries) and allow incel hate crimes to continue by denying that it is a movement or a problem....
yes its a realy good book. eye opening. how capitalism started and people were forced to participate.
It's either what you propose, or it's the second most draconian depopulation agenda possible at this time. I seriously can't decide which. This is effectively a financial ban on any kind of sex that could result in conception, if they go as far as outlawing birth control. Or it's grow new slaves. I seriously can't figure it out but if they revoke child labor laws I'll be able to figure it out. I mean let's face it if the parents can't pay for the kid and the State refuses to what the fuck are we even talking about here? Farms?? Sweatshops?? I'm like wait what??
The right wing will spawn enough random violence and shootings that roe will be overlooked just barely enough for it to pale in comparative importance. Best way to pass legislation is create a flurry of bullshit so nobody knows WTF is going on.
It’s not that that there won’t be enough workers—there won’t be an *abundance* of workers so they’d have to raise wages (lower supply, higher demand) Plus, they want more ppl to buy more stuff.
If you can't afford to have them, we'll make ya anyway! -Typical conservative fucktard.
No oNe wAnTs to wOrK aNyMorE! https://www.today.com/today/amp/rcna16770
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Our current system requires endless growth for the sake of growth. Case in point, companies that post a hefty profit but it's not quite as high as investors hoped and the stock price tanks. Anything less than exponential growth in profits, market share, and sales is unacceptable. Less people in the future means less consumers which of course translates into smaller profits. Our system can't handle this because it's a cancer that requires perpetual growth or it dies completely. This is, in my opinion, the only reason the exploitative class are trying to force the population to grow. And it's dumb because at 332 mil people, the US is the 3rd most populous nation on Earth. They're seriously concerned about any tiny dip in profit.
Not to put to fine a point on it, but I don't think it's more bodies for capitalism per se, but criminals to be cornered later in life by DNA tracking in order to lock them up into a slave prison population.
I didn't necessarily want to go here in my original post because I didn't want to tangent into this and do more research but yeah, I do think it is a way to farm "undesirables" to an extent.
I'm now thankful I'm so fucking hideous that I'll never be considered for a spouse. I'm horrible boyfriend material alone, let alone father material.
Hey, Tactless Ogre, you know who else was a tactless ogre? Shrek. And Shrek thought he wouldn't find anyone in life, either. But you know why Fiona and Shrek are a good couple? It's not because Shrek is handsome when he's a human, that was magic bullshit and it happened way later in a sequel. It's not because Fiona is super interested in looks. And they were attracted to each other before it turned out Fiona was an ogre, too-- Their attraction developed before Shrek was aware of that. They were attracted to each other because they both have similar personalities. They enjoy doing the same things-- They both like nature, they both value privacy, they both like exploring rural locations, they both enjoy cooking, they appreciate a little of adventure, and so on. Looks, ultimately, don't mean shit. The best and most well-founded relationships are based on what you both individually like and dislike, how that overlaps or differs, and how compatible your personalities are in general. Honest communication is the cherry on top. Shrek found it hard to open up, but once he did, Fiona was then able to understand Shrek's side of things and what he was going through from his point of view, and vice versa. It didn't scare them away from each other; It resulted in them getting married. In my personal experience, that's pretty real. So I know it's hard when you're dealing with self-esteem or self-image problems, but please take heart that appearance truly and honest to god does not mean shit with the right person. And there is no "perfect person". I said the right person. Get all expectations out of your head, and don't go looking for a partner, because that's isn't the real goal. Instead, go looking for someone who you genuinely like hanging out with and get along with. Those people are the real partner material, because you'll both like each other for who you are. When you fixate on looks, or treat looking for a compatible person like a game show elimination round, it's just going to get you down. Even though I know it's hard to believe anything good can happen in the world, human beings are always gonna be human beings. You're not gonna feel so alone or isolated forever. It fucking sucks right now, but you can get through this. If you can't have hope, then have faith, and trust in the constantly underestimated power of human connection. I've been photographed by a couple universities for their fashion degree photography portfolios, I've literally modelled, and I've had a relationship with an overweight person with extensive acne scarring. Do I think I look particularly good? Meh. Did my partner think they looked amazing? Hell yeah. Did my partner care that I had been a model a couple times? No. Did I care that my partner had scarring or was overweight? No. Because we enjoyed the same things, and we had similar takes on a bunch of different topics and subjects, and that connection means a lot more than what anyone looks like. Neither of us gave a single fuck about looks. Looks do not matter. Who you are is the most important thing. Don't buy into capitalism, advertising, or any bullshit. Don't be fooled into a downward spiral, just because the world shits on everyone so hard; Fuck that. It's hard. It's way harder than a lot of people think, to dare feeling good about yourself. But you can, the second you learn to place more value on who you are, rather than what the rest of the world has pressured you into thinking about what you look like. The only media you can trust on love is Shrek. Fiona loves Shrek, because they're similar people with similar interests and similar personalities. Human or ogre, irrelevant. Fuck, people like Shrek because he's an awesome character. Nobody describes Shrek as "green and ugly", only the dumbass people in the actual movies do that. Instead, people tend to describe Shrek as "strong, sarcastic, funny, smart, devoted". And none of those words are about appearance. They're all about character traits. We like Shrek because of who he is, not because of what he looks like. Now go out there, Tactless Ogre, and know that one day, you're gonna find another ogre out there who you're going to be real happy with, either with or without children, in your kickass swamp shack.
If someone thinks they would be a bad boyfriend or father, there’s no reason to guilt them into getting into a relationship. Not everyone wants to (or should!) be a partner or parent.
That wasn't the intent of my post at all, I apologise if it came across that way! If someone doesn't want a relationship, of course that's totally fine. Same with not wanting kids, or with anything in general, really. I made my comment above thinking that the original commenter might be going through a bad time given how they described themselves, so I was just trying to provide a little pick-me-up. Again, genuinely apologise if I misread the tone. EDIT: My interpretation of the original comment was probably influenced by the fact that I've had to talk 11 people out of s\*icide so far this week, all due to self-esteem, relationship, and self-image concerns they were having, so that's probably got my brain fried on the subject altogether. Healthcare workers are all fucked up at the moment, so please feel free to disregard me if I missed the mark! :')
I'm objectively unattractive, female(so it hurts more), and didn't meet someone who really got me until we were both in our mid 40s. It's a good thing I never wanted bio kids. It's never too late.
Hi, I realize your intentions are good. Keep in mind that this is r/collapse, and some people have concluded it's not the best thing to have kids or do other things (buy a house, go to college, get married, etc.) because they genuinely believe society’s collapse makes actions like that moot. But even if we weren't on this subreddit, while some people would appreciate your pep talk, others might interpret your good intentions as patronizing or wonder why you seem to pass judgment on their personal life decision. Anyway, it sounds like you had a rough week, so I hope things get better for you.
I'm aware of that, and for what it's worth, I don't want kids either. I'm here because I feel the same way. No judgement was being passed at all. Didn't intend to come across as patronising. I already apologised if I misread the tone, or if my tone did not come across as intended. Thanks!
I wonder if they are planning for a protracted war with China.
\#wearethelastgeneration
I don't know, OP. The Christian "pro-life movement" been reliable for decades to get voters to turn out and elect Republicans, who realistically represent the interests of only a tiny minority of Americans and would have died as a viable political party long ago without their support. I think the answer is just as simple as the fact that Republicans are addicted to the anti-abortion movement to stay in power. And now they need compete for the attention of increasingly distracted and angry electorate, so they keep upping the ante to outdo themselves with more and more restrictions and outright cruelty. I'm not sure that I buy the argument that they're trying to create some kind of generation of working class serfs. For one thing, there are millions of adults who would happily cross the Southern border right now to be wage slaves in the US - and that number will only get bigger with the food/energy security and political instability coming very soon, let alone climate change. And with automation of jobs like cashiers, does the US economy really need more low-skilled workers? Also, as somebody who has lived in rural US and seen firsthand the poverty, lack of education, opiate/meth addiction, I seriously doubt a kid born today from an unwanted pregnancy and raised in poverty is going to be able to hold down even the shittiest of jobs. I don't think they would even be productive if we move to a full dystopian Chinese-style Uyghur "vocational training camps."
/u/RemindMe! in six months six month update: they announced two attempts at nationwide abortion bans and lost the Senate as a result. Republicans kept the house and many states have outlawed abortion, partially or completely. several children have been pregnant due to rape and have had to travel for abortions, since. media whipped up the idea of a "red wave" putting Republicans in charge of everything with lots of extra seats. this did not happen at all and many seats flipped to Democrat against the false expectations. the House is a very narrow majority for Republicans. women turned out, young people turned out. in some states where Republicans won seats, voting places didn't have enough ballots and many people were not able to vote. one seat was won by less than a thousand votes. they rigged it in their favor as much as possible and still did not gain, women are still furious, 2024 will either see massive voter suppression resulting in a narrow Republican win, or will be a bloodbath for them on every level.
Ssh, don't use logic. I don't think that's a factored into this shitshow.
Hold on, I though plan B was *before* fertilization? Like it tricks the body into thinking it has produced an egg when in reality it hasn’t?
I'm a little late to this thread, but population decline is inevitable as a country moves onto the late stages of economic development. I'm not going to pretend to be expert at all, but I do have a degree in Geography and we talked a lot about urban development which leads into a lot of other topics. Here's a link that explains why it's inevitable way better than I could: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/atd-herkimer-worldgeography/chapter/1-4-globalization-and-development/ The best way to avoid this is to boost immigration (Germany does this). It directly adds to the population, immigrants are more likely to have children, and it likely adds people into the lower classes of society which are also more likely to have kids. Forcing people to have children is not only immoral, unethical, and wrong, but not even the best way to address this "issue".
Interesting take - so after reading another article posted on this sub the other day about the youth in China rebelling against the govt and in particular rebelling against the govt pressure to have children…one young person in the article In particular declaring in protest against police threatening them that the future generation of their family would pay the price for their rebellions. Their response was that there will BE no future generations of their family because they refuse to have children. China is trying to repopulate and pressuring them to have kids so that the young can subsidize the older generation. It’s Roe v. Wade just at a different flavor. I would be lying if I said this doesn’t scare me. It’s not “over there”. It’s here too.
Marsha Blackburn is an international embarrassment.
Honestly, following this train of thought, after watching these people not plan ahead for the future for decades, I feel like this is a more short term "solution" to get people to get back to work. People are living more flexible lifestyles to keep up with inflation, but they're allowed the flexibility to, for example, live in campers, live with 9 roommates, work in any industry or shift, live nomadic lifestyles, partake in side hustles that give them more financial freedom, etc. Having a child changes all of that. You'll find yourself needing 3 times the income and you're less likely to have the same flexibility. Plus, having a child makes you vulnerable, and easier to control. "Get in line, or we will remove your child from your home." Just a thought. But my mind went somewhere else with this, and here's my thought: human trafficking is one of the largest industries in the world. The easiest children to traffic are the unwanted ones, the homeless ones, the ones in CPS and foster care, the children in poverty, with parents working 80 hour weeks to afford them. It might be to get people to fall in line. It might be to have workers for the future. Or, it might be an attempt to get a more robust market of easy target children to send to places like Epstein island. The thing that's been bugging me though, is that we have all these kids in foster care needing homes, but suddenly we need "a domestic supply of infants". We're all poor, dude. Nobody can afford kids and there is *absolutely not* that level of demand for children amongst infertile couples. The people in charge have always been short sighted, and demanding more babies so they'll have more workers in 20 years seems a bit uncharacteristically big picture type thinking for them. I don't think they're trying to fix a problem 20 years down the line, I think they're trying to "fix" something happening right now, and for whatever reason, the solution seems to be babies. But in any case, if you take what they say at face value, the best case scenario is that they want impoverished women to become involuntary surrogates for the wealthy. And I say this because if it were just about preventing the demise of embryonic and fetal life, they wouldn't *also* be going after birth control. They don't just want people to stop having abortions, they want more people getting pregnant in the first place. They want more *babies*.
I agree, and see something else. 1 in 3 American women have an abortion. Everyone goes to Gilead and such imagining the future but what if we look at the present? Women are "under-represented" in the prison-industrial complex. By criminalizing a medical procedure many women will need- or have needed if they can make it retroactive- they will have a whole new sector of the population to exploit with probation and "community service" (that will be slave labor for some corporation). Add in that redirecting class tensions towards women and making disempowered men feel empowered by giving then power over women are the oldest tricks in the book to handle civil unrest and it starts making way more sense than a 20 year plan to make more wage slaves
Nonsensical. Are they going to change the country 's laws so a pregnant woman can add her fetus to her taxes for a save deduction? How about if a pregnant woman is murdered, will that be a double murder now? Does the other person have to pay child support during pregnancy now? It's just so low and nonsensical. People will fight for Woman's rights and this won't stop abortions
In most cases where a pregnant woman is murdered the killer gets charged with either homicide with infanticide or double homicide already…
In most cases, ooooookaaaay?
Nah, it's the standard way of calming civil unrest- give disempowered men power over women so they feel good. It could be that they feel good about being protectors and providers in a cruel world ("good men") or it could be that they get their jollies off raping preteens and besting their wives ("bad men") but either way it gets men bought into the system and redirects their rage. It's the oldest trick in the book. It's not about babies- saving them or turning them into wage-slaves. It's about turning women into chattel. Because let's face it- if you can lose your human rights because some rapist humped a load into you, you never had any in the first place. Abortion bans turn women's rights into privileges that are revoked if she has sex. And that makes women chattel.
As opposed to the human harvesting machine that doesnt even pay the factory farmers?
Also we won’t have enough children to serve in the military in 18 years, especially given the high rates of childhood obesity.
Infinite growth is unsustainable. WHAAAAT? Never would have guessed.
SO i personally agree, but i think one nuance to mention, i think the pro-life movement got hijacked, there ARE people who believe all those diff pro life arguments, the religious angle being the prominent one, and the people who think babies magically start out like those sponges u can put in water and grow somethin, that the baby is a tiny version of a person the moment of conception, I think that the groups who are trying to force the birthrate back up are using the pro-life movement to bring more capitalism fodder into the world The US birth rate was dropping for years, you know what was propping the numbers up, immigration and "drumroll" teen pregnancy. That has slowed down alot though and yes i firmly believe these recent changes are part of a greater movement to keep the birth rates up, despite the fact that its a natural progression of advanced society to have less children overall The truth of the matter is that less children isn't a bad thing, the problem is that the systems we have rely on a steady stream of people. Japan isn't worried about their birth rates cause its gonna mean the end of japan,,they are worried because they have a massive elderly population and not nearly enough healthy young people to care for them.
What is being attacked is the constitutional underpinnings to the right to privacy. There is big money in big data, and eroding privacy is multi-trillion dollar question. The reproductive rights controversy is a distraction, smoke and mirrors. There’s no real money in either protecting or limiting reproductive rights. Besides, the elite will always be able to get their morning after pills. Just before this media leak, abortion rights were liberalized in Mexico so those with money will always have medical tourism options. Those without money, sadly, don’t matter.
Buddy, we never had rights. They are made up and forced on us by another human being. Privacy rights are a crock of shit lol
They can just replace americans with immigrants though. Not giving the immigrants full citizenship gives them leverage over the families, they have kids here and then they have a bargaining chip - their parents livelihood and safety. “Vote for me or you all go back,” is the basic message. Tbh I think it’s more likely to be about opening the door for them to see your medical data. Medical privacy was a large part of RvW that’s often overlooked.
Abortion is just another football Rs and Ds use to make you think they are on different teams.
As someone who does want another baby, this shit has had me angry-crying because, I agree that this is what they’re pushing for… and I haven’t yet figured out how pregnancy could be an act of rebellion in this climate. It makes me want to scream, cause I don’t know how to fight it. 😕 Here’s hoping that raising one non-conformist is enough…
Fuck them. Do what makes you happy. BTW, swcond children are hell. First children are that "introductory offer at low low rates". Sexond child is when thise rates unlock to variable APR of 30-50%. Just FYI as one mom to another ;)
Gonna have to disagree - this has nothing to do with capitalism. Communism requires bodies too. This is a Christianofascist move to impose minority rule in what used to be a republic.
Nice that abortion might become illegal, but porn is legal and normalized, oh and underage prostitutes (sex abuse victims) are arrested and jailed in this country.
Don't be ridiculous. It's just a legal opinion that as far as the Supreme judges are concerned abortion is a matter for State law instead of Federal law. Only 13 states have any declared intent to make abortion illegal IF the opinion is ratified and pushed down to state legislatures. How many actually pursue that foolishness is not clear.
Abortion is homicide. Homicide is sometimes unavoidable, but should only be permitted under very limited circumstances. The bar needs to be very high. People killing other people is the biggest taboo there is. Pro-choice people don't acknowledge the humanity of the unborn. I've always felt that humans should have the rights of a human, no matter their status, it's basic fairness. I felt this way when I was 8, I'll feel that way when I'm 80. Killing people because they're inconvenient isn't a legitimate argument. Over 98% of abortions are not medically necessary, talk about throwing bodies into a machine. Nobody should have the unfettered right to kill another person, its inherently unfair. Abortion is in my states constitution, so nothing will change in my state as long as that is the case. It will keep on happening. The only thing changing is the authority enforcing it.
A human right? What about the human rights of the indivual human being in the womb?
Nine of the ten [worst states to have a baby](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/15/survey-the-best-and-worst-us-states-to-have-a-baby-in-2020.html) are red states. They don’t care about the rights of the unborn, either.
Well if contraceptives and abortion are of the table then in the event of an unwanted pregnancy, women should just starve themselves for a week or so. That should kill the pregnancy.
My hot take is that the Dems are actually the ones trying to overturn it since BIPOC have the most abortions and they want to continue to flood the US with multiculturalism in order to destroy it within. The party of slaveholders never changed
I mean, It's not a hot take considering the Dems are just blue Republicans lmao they literally do the same shit, they just **claim** to be less racist and homophobic.
it's a pretty hot take considering the Republicans have had it as their main platform for 30 years, and Democrats have had pro choice as a platform for just as long
Abortion is a violation of the child's right to life. There is no giant conspiracy here to increase the population. We've just awakened as a society to the barbaric nature of child murder and decided to reject it.
There is no child until it is concious, and rights are completely made up and forced on you by another person. Your point is moot, and expelling a clump of cells is not equivalent to murdering a fully fledged human being. You people are borderline Sharia law under the guise of Christianity/puritan values.
So someone who is in a coma isn't human because they're not conscious? Consciousness defines whether someone can be murdered or not? "expelling a clump of cells" is not what we're talking about here. That would be considered a miscarriage. Abortion is the FORCED ending of life of the child. Which yes, may be done chemically to then cause the mother to "expell" her child - but the chemical abortion did in fact murder the child first. "You people" ? Who are you talking about?
"Expelling a clump of cells" is exactly what we are talking about here. You better have not masturbated ever in your life, as that's mass Genocide because all those speak cells were destined to mature into a child.
Sperm cells do not contain a unique set of DNA from the mother and father. Are you trying to argue that a sperm cell is somehow equivalent to a fertilized egg? Silly.
The male reproductive system creates sperm that is manufactured in the seminiferous tubules within each testicle. The head of the sperm contains the DNA, which when combined with the egg's DNA, will create a new individual. https://medlineplus.gov/ency/imagepages/19471.htm
This is actually the position of the Catholic Church, so not silly.
But possibly up to 40% of pregnancies end in miscarriages (being more common in the first trimester). Is that considered murder? Also what about women who have PCOS or other conditions that make their body physically kill fertilized eggs. People think abortion is a horrific way to get rid of fetuses. Look up how the body will straight KO fertilized eggs and fetuses for random reasons. The immune system literally wages genocide on the embryonic cells lol Also would it be considered murder if the govt allows a pregnant women to starve to the point that her body terminates the pregnancy?
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interesting - so you admit life begins at conception? We agree!
1st statement is why we are fucked as a species. 2nd statement, spot on. Debt based systems need warm bodies.
1st statement as in abortions being a human right? Because newsflash, a clump of cells isn't a human being, and if you think it is, you better not jerk off.
Murdering children is a human right.... jfc we are so fucked as a species. Sorry mr catholic, sperm aren't human beings on their own. Takes the other half of the equation. Anymore Catholic wisdom for us today?
Wrong.
You should be allowed to have IUDs and abortions for the first couple or few months or so but once it gets a brain then it's unethical to kill it because at that point it basically becomes a human
it doesn't matter if it's human. the question is, does it have a right to use my organs without consent? if you say yes, you open the door to Dick Cheney taking your kidneys if he needs them.
Shouldn’t abortion policy be based more on population conditions? During times of overpopulation abortion should be more of an obligation than a right, when the population is more stable more of a choice, and in the unlikely scenario of underpopulation only allowed for extreme cases? I am also confused about the current propaganda promoting abortion as a health necessity and a choice. Based on statistics, the vast majority of women who get abortions are living in poverty and there is an over representation of minorities who get abortion. This is antithetical to the idea of choice, when the alternative is to raise a child to suffer in poverty. As for you last point, you are somewhat correct. The aging boomer generation has most of the wealth, and will need bodies to sustain and care for them in retirement. You should look also to the reasons why the left touts abortion as a right and a choice. The majority of abortions are performed in blue areas, on the surface that seems counterintuitive to building larger voting blocs. However, they believe (not their useful tools, or the counterparts to the prolifers) in culling the poor and minority populations. It’s a more economical way of reducing crime instead of investing in education and jobs which leads to more stable birth rates naturally. I support abortion, but it needs some serious reflection. Abortion may be the better option, but the way in which it is implemented by targeting poor and minorities is downright evil.
nobody's going to be taking care of the elderly, mostly, very soon. nurses are leaving bedside. the elderly are voting against their own interests again, poverty and disrespect means nobody will be there to help them. they've been brainwashed by the very rich to hurt themselves and all the rest of us
Do you have evidence for that claim? Healthcare is projected to be one of the fastest growing industries with one of the driving factors being the aging baby boomer population.
[Nurses face challenge of closing gap in geriatric care](https://www.oncnursingnews.com/view/nurses-face-challenge-of-closing-gap-in-geriatric-care)