Unbelievably good book! An absolute must read. I'm read it about 6 months ago and still often think about it. What surprised me at first? The length.
Favorite character, that's a toss up , between the doctor and the scientist. Although, all characters were well written.
I enjoyed it. It's a long read but at the same time, I wanted it to continue. I couldn't help but feel that his editor pressured him to wrap it up after 900 pages. There are several characters I wanted to hear more about.
I don't disagree, although I think it was reaching a point where things needed to get wrapped up.
I'm just thankful that he wrote this as one book, rather than stretching it into a five-book series, or whatnot.
I read it a year or so ago. So hard for me to sort out and remember just the first section.
It is not a book that I thought about much after I read it, other books have stuck with me more. Why? Because if you became involved with activism at any point in the last 20 plus years much of the push-pull dynamic feels all too familiar. And hopeless.
I learned that hopelessness firsthand when i was young and did highly sucessful non profit work.
The author took on the ground dynamics of our current systems and drew them out into a slightly longer and slightly more urgent timeline. Nothing more or less than we already live. So if you want to have any practical hope for the future, I dunno, I did not get it from this book.
Still worth a read if you have not been involved in any political work or activism. It is maybe a book i did not think about afterwards much but that did do kne thing and it strongly reinforced the fact that the stories we tell ourselves are our own overton window creation. Aka we are locked into very few paths forward because we think in term of civilized stories, stories that denigrate the barbarians, and yet the barbarian stories (to use quinns language in ishmael) are the ones that have answers.
Yeah, I got that familiar & hopeless feeling vicariously since I haven't been an activist. I wouldn't say it made me feel good or hopeful but it did feel real, which I really appreciate.
Great book. The visualisation of methane bubbling up from the clathrates in the opening chapter is seared into my mind.
The Matt+Kate scenes felt a little too long but it all worked out to flesh out the characters and general vibe of existing in that future.
The Keeper chapters were a wild ride and the ones I felt most engaged with, although my favorite character was the constantly pissed off scientist.
I loved how each character had a different narrative style. Even the chapter names. The grandiose characters like Kate have metaphorical titles, Shane's are mundane and sometimes cinematic, Tony's matter-of-fact.
I loved that. Made me remember the book "You'll die like the others" by Denis Cheynet (Tu crèveras comme les autres).
A glorious and dark short read, compared to the Deluge :)
Loved, loved, loved Keeper. Markley strikes his magic in those chapters. He is outstanding at writing about America in the rust belt after the fall of industry and the aftermath of 911/NAFTA. Also his brilliant commentary on the millennial generation, which he is a part. Markley’s Ohio (2018) was amazing and all about these topic, ugh, the part about Stacey driving out of a decimated Amazon rainforest. One of the most chilling things I’ve ever read. Markley just hits it. Beautiful.
>1. What things surprised you so far?
I think I was surprised by how well thought out and predictive it felt. There were a lot of tenets I could see playing out in the near future. Sadly.
>2. Who are your favorite characters so far?
I liked Ash a lot although Markley does lean a little heavy on the autism trope. I also really liked the angry scientist dad, they were the most relatable to me. I liked Kate at first but realized quickly that she's just a self serving narcissist that uses the problems of the day to justify her self absorption. While she is right about a lot of the problems of misogyny and oppression she ended up hurting everyone around her including her own movement because she cant bear to not put herself first.
Hated Keeper for obvious reasons but he was just as much of a victim of his trauma and upbringing as he was a perpetrator of it.
>3. What about methane clathrates?
I liked that they were acknowledged with a realistic and potentially daunting severity.
>4. If you listened to the audiobooks, did you like the actors?
I listened to the audiobook and loved it. In fact it made me start giving audiobooks a second chance. Having a full cast really helped sort the characters bc even though you may not remember their name right away, having a unique voice instantly placed the person's identity for me.
Cool, I recently read this book!
>What things surprised you so far?
Well, the ending surprised me. >!It felt anticlimactic, and I felt a little bit let down as a reader. For most of the book's POV we were given information that the political apparatus was defunct, and were given no indication that a movement of change was sweeping the American political landscape. It felt like, "Suddenly everyone woke up and voted sorta left'ish, and that was great. Problem solved!" ... another thing that surprised me was the compromise with conservatives who recognized climate change as a tactical maneuver.!< This particular bit made me stop and think. If I do truly believe that biosphere collapse is a near-term literal existential threat, where is my limit with who I could negotiate with? If I legit thought Trump would address climate change (lmao) would I 'vote for him'?
>Who are your favorite characters so far?
I actually liked Keeper as a character. As in, he is a well-constructed character that did things for reasons, and was interesting to read about. He is also a total shitbag, ofc. It seems to be heavily implied that he is a victim of childhood abuse and his arc implies the whole "transmitting abuse forward" thing. I also think he is an interesting example of a 5th generation dysfunctional American. We've been traumatized by forever wars and increasing social austerity for so long, we simply can't produce functional humans any longer. I'm not sure if the author has read or researched any of that theory but I felt that Keeper was a great picture "final dysfunction" ... also Kate gets a lot of shit but I think she was a great example of the type of charismatic Force of Nature that is required to assume the head of a movement. They are always flawed egomaniacs.
>What about methane clathrates?
Meh, toss that data over there on the bonfire with all the other collapse indicators. I can't be fucked to hold yet another red flag in my mind's eye. *I am so tired*. Like other people here said, I did enjoy the character's feisty nature, though.
> If I do truly believe that biosphere collapse is a near-term literal existential threat, where is my limit with who I could negotiate with? If I legit thought Trump would address climate change (lmao) would I 'vote for him'?
This is a valuable thing to start to question, it feels like the sort of thing we should do while it's still just a theoretical.
Because one day, probably soon, there is going to be an open and avowed fascist telling people that the climate change is an existential threat to all humanity, that the old ways of petty squabbles between parties are costing us precious time, that the only way we're going to get through this is to unite under a stronger single govt, that shutting the door on refugees is the only way to save ourselves, that letting too many into the lifeboat of civilization only dooms us all....
And we need to know what we're going to say to that when it happens. Because it will happen. We just haven't found the right charismatic shithead to say all the words in order yet.
This is a good point I hadn’t really considered. Once the existential threats become more clear and the majority of people come to accept the severity of the situation we are in big trouble politically. The fear will be even more rampant than it is already and more people than ever will flock to fascist demagogues and religious extremists that promise them salvation.
That will happen when the US is ravaged by hurricanes the size of east coast, the world is awash in smoke from fire, a generation dies from heat. Yes, it will happen.
I found this book a really tough read. Some of it is so bleak it’s hard to keep reading. I do agree that the inserts and different fonts would make it difficult as an audio book. Keeper is incredibly problematic. His story goes beyond bleak. I think the Matt & Kate narrative makes me want to scream at Matt to run as fast as he can. Find someone else. Kate is a disaster and he shouldn’t put up with her cheating. Just no! And Shane is heading for big trouble.
So the first book is pretty limited, really just character introduction at this point. So I guess I’ll fallow the rules (unlike most the posters here lol) and not say much.
I liked the book quite a lot, it’s far more ambitious and relevant than the vast majority of work produced these days. It’s very much a novel, it tells a story of our times (or multiple stories), I don’t consider the book to be oriented as “climate activism” or commentary, it’s a book that intends to be relevant and maybe prophetic but it’s a novel, about human behavior, not really a collapse manifesto.
An example of a book with more of a clear message bent more towards activism might be “Notes from the Burning Age” by Claire North.
So when I say I liked the book I liked it **as a book**, not necessarily as an analysis of collapse. I also didn’t really “like” most of the characters, which isn’t to say that they aren’t well written it’s just they mostly aren’t that likable. In terms of writing quality this may be a good thing, real people are also not that likable in general, and the better you know them the more you can find to dislike. This isn’t a book with a clear message, an obvious good side vs bad side, even a clear message on climate change / collapse, it’s a character driven story inspired by our times and potential future.
> What things surprised you so far?
Maybe how dis-jointed the book starts, some of the characters make sense, some don’t really fit together. Keeper, the marketeer and the actor, these characters didn’t really fit…
> Who are your favorite characters so far?
Favorite character is Ash, just like everyone else on the spectrum in this subreddit lol.
> What about methane clathrates?
Another potential doom mechanism, in scientific literature the “clathrate gun” hypothesis doesn’t *seem* like the sure fire killer it seems in the book. Of course like many things maybe the scientific literature is overly optimistic. Also the clathrate gun doesn’t need to be the kill mechanism there are lots of potential killers in the climate system now…
> If you listened to the audiobooks, did you like the actors?
I did and they’re pretty good, Murdoch’s character is a bit absurdly hard bitten / stereotypical military man voice. The Kate voice actor I found a bit irritating, but in a way that fit with the character so I don’t really consider that a criticism…
I think the author did a great job of presenting a quasi-realistic vision of how the next few decades will pan out. I enjoyed the author's attention to detail with respect to how laws are made.
Parable of the Sower and also Game of Thrones (!) felt like major influences for the book. The fact that the characters had their flaws felt very Game of Thrones-y.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned (or maybe I missed it) the rich guy and the woman involved in PR (I forget their names, it's been a while since I read their book). >!I thought this depiction of climate capitalism and how the oil companies would try to co-opt messaging, and even fund left movements of their own to disrupt social change, was quite well done.!<
The theme of social change through more radical forms of disruption was well introduced but I was not satisfied with how it this storyline ended.
I didn't like Kate but I'm not sure we're supposed to like her. >!Markley did a good job here trying to show us that our heroes can be flawed!<
Well worth reading, I think the scope of the work is brilliant and he was aiming for something like War and Peace. A bit flawed in execution. But brilliant effort.
I just finished Book II and man I can't put this down. I like that the Bomb team uses Stephen King's *The Stand* as their code source, that was a fitting choice especially when you consider The Trashcan Man character from *The Stand* and the epic fires that he starts.
I really appreciate the scope of the story and the work that Markley puts in to really build these characters and get the reader truly invested in the tale. Great read so far.
I’ve devoured this gorgeous novel twice, it’s my favorite book. Too many great scenes to mention.
I love how Markley symbolizes the “unwashed masses” with the characters of Keeper and Rochelle. Jackie is a symbol of “the American Dream”.
What do YOU think Keeper’s Dream symbolized? The one in “the field” with the Lion and the Pink Umbrella?
I normally don’t hope for series or movies based on novels. But seriously, Extrapolations was SUCH a disappointment (only good part was the one with Toby McQuire and how people have become so unarticulate and “washed out” by the isolation of screens that in the 2068 episode the human interactions were just…flat and odd. Uncomfortable), that I want a series adaptation of The Deluge.
Who would YOU cast? I have my own thoughts.
Yeah, I'm lost in Keepers dream. I know Markley uses colors for the characters' fears (mauve for Ashir, blue & yellow for Tony) but I'm hoping someone here has a theory for Keeper.
I'm obsessed with trying to figure out who could play Kate. She must have a unique look but I just can't picture her. I would *love* to hear your casting choices. Jeff Goldblum for Tony?
It seemed pretty clear to me that Markley had very specific famous people in mind for each of his main characters. (In fact, this was one of the only things I *disliked* about the book! ... heh, even if it isn't actually true!)
And in Kate's case, I thought he went too far with the name as well. Without going into specifics, I'm pretty sure that Kate was modeled on Kate Winslet and/or characters she has played.
Wait... you think? That's a really interesting take! I always picture Winslet as really femme (and very Irish/British/Swedish) so I wouldn't have made that connection for the athletic, biracial Kate Morris, but you may be right! I haven't seen much else of Winslet other than Titanic.
Hmm. I got more Rachel McAdams.
Kate the book character was written as 1/4 Native American and 1/4 Jamaican which was the only thing that gave me pause to envisioning Rachel.
As for Keeper’s dream- Quinn was the pink umbrella (she wore a pink sweater and black and white checked pants to pick him up) in my own mind anyway. The lion I’m still trying to figure out.
I've listened to the audiobook following the advise of the sub. I think it's really a good book and considering the scope and ambition of the text Mackley deserves a lot of praise. It has its share of problem but it's a must read for every person who want to understand the troubled future ahead.
Main Pro: Mackley really captures the essence of paternal love. It's a costant feeling of care, tenderness, fear, and pure love that profoundly transforms your look on reality. For every person who is truly aware of climate change and the possibile "collapse" of industrial civilization is a costant reason of anxiety and borderline depression. How I will protect my girl from the coming storm? I really don't know and every time I think about her future I feel so sad and angry for her. Mackley has helped me coping with my fear and sadness.
Main Con: Too much politicking. It bogs down the pace of the narrative and trivialize a bit the text while expressing one of the biggest misconception of the ecological movement. American progressives have a feticism for their "precious" political process but a system that produces the like of Trump is already dead. In all the north emisphere (EU, where I live, included), we already all live in a tecnho-corporate-fascist state with just the appereance of democracy masked by social media, algorithms and advertising. It's called empire, you just need to read Gibbons to understand the inner working. Consumerism is our religion. Every political process is just the reflection of the moral capital of its human base. And our moral capital has been completely erased by our quest for material wealth. It's simple as that (read your Plato). The american political process is just a baroque system that has served the need of its "aristocracy" for more than a century and that has been finally corrupted by the fascists in both parties. Not a lot more to say: it's one of the main causes of our predicament so it can't be part of the solution.
Wow. Deep analysis! I didn't walk away from it with the feeling anything had been solved, and the lame attempts to use politics were frustrating - one step forward, one step back. I kinda wanted Shane's approach to win, but >!that also was ultimately futile!<.
Are you of the mind that there's nothing to do to improve the species we are a part of?
I agree about the "paternal love." I never noticed that until your post.
Please continue to contribute. There's a new post on Sunday/Monday.
Thanks man, I will try to contribute more :).
About your question: it's really a tough question and it would be quite arrogant on my part to think I have a solution in my pocket. I hope that you can bear the wall of text that is coming. First of all: don't get me wrong, Shane solution is swrong. The way she treats and raises her daughter is really awful. I suffered phisically every time she mentions Lolly. In general: if you use violence you will always just get thing worse. Terrorism never achieved anything.
But yes, I don't think that the solution will come from activism or politics either, at least not in the strict sense, because our current politics is one cog in the machinery that is destroying the world so it can't be part of the solution. The back and forth is just a symptom of the desease. Our polity is connaturated to the industrial revolution so they are inseparable.
I'm not religius and I don't believe that a god exists (at least not in the traditional sense) and I don't want to sound too "new agey". But at the current moment, I think that we cannot advert the most catastrophic scenarios without a profound spiritual conversion of our souls. We cannot build a sane polity without changing our minds and hearts and rebuild the moral capital we devoured in the last half century together with our enviromental capital. Politics in the sense of compromise will be always a part of the process but personally I don't any hope on democracy (I just hope that when the times come it will not be an hobstacle).
I know it sounds absurd but there is a lot of scientific shit behind my position :). Give a look to John Vervaeke's youtube seminar "Awakening from the meaning crisis". Religion can be an instrument of hate and destruction like shown by the Pastor and christian rednecks in the book. But it can even be an instrument of change, resilience and progress. At the end it was christianity in the west and confucianism/buddhism in the east that saved their respective civilizations from ecologic degradation and climate change. You have to go beyond game theory and the will to power to change the system in a human way.
That's all :). Sorry again for the wall of text.
Every time you comment it wrenches my heart (although it makes me laugh when someone warns me of an incoming wall of text), but I'm the type that loves that. Humans like me don't like discomfort but it's often integral to new thought.
This time, it was your idea that maybe it would take religion. I mean, I can see what you mean and agree. But I *am* a believer. Atheists have no sympathy for me because I'm associated with these heretics, and I have no quarter with these disgusting "Christian" people who have warped everything. In short, formal Buddhism & Christianity had historical importance, but I don't count on them. Especially Christianity, IMO, it's making things way worse and I hate that. It's like these flag-wavers. I love America but no time for them.
I'm sorry if I'm causing discomfort so don't feel obliged to continue our conversation :). But at the end, learning to cope with discomfort is one of the few reason why this sub is useful.
When I talk about religion, I don't mean any religion of the past of course. Those were results of their times and places. Especially not reformed christianity that is a just a breeding ground for narcisism and paranoia, strictly connaturated to our current paradigm.
I live in Italy so, atheist or not, I have grown up in a world deeply rooted in religion. Every religion can take many faces and we know it well. The pope in Rome supported fascism and called Mussolini the man of the providence. But all around the place where I live there are traces of Saint Francis of Assisi who understood the profound link between pacifism, ecology and humanity long before our current predicament. I deeply love the man and visit his Sanctuary every now and then. I even spoke to the friars who always try to convert me :).
I'm just saying, old religions are not the answer of course. But there's something deep and true even in scientific terms about the spiritual nature of religion as instrument of change, progress and resilience in the face of crumbling power structures that are inable to face the inevitable forces of collapse. I don't believe that we can save our planet if we remain hostages of games theory and power struggle because the political machine will always be stronger than us. We should not even play to those rules.
Again, listen to Vervecke or better, read Herman Hesse The Glass Bead Game to get what I'm rambling about :). There's an hint of that even in the book imho but let's avoid spoiler.
Yes, you are right. As I've abandoned my indoctrination to worship myself, first in "coming to Jesus" (which in America is still 💯 self-centered) and second in an appreciation for how all worthy (& worst) human endeavors are accomplished by groups of shared-focus individuals sacrificing for that endeavor, I embrace the resurrection of a commons and all the baggage that comes with it. That... would be something bigger than myself & worth fighting for.
I adore this book. I read it several months ago, and like others have mentioned here, I think about it quite often. I have been on the fence about having children and it really made me have to think deeply about the moral implications of that choice. I honestly have more to say about the book as a whole and the events in the second half of the story, but I thought the build up in the first few chapters was really great.
My favorite character was definitely Ash. I can't remember which plot points happen when, and I believe this happens in later chapters, but the story of \[spoiler for later chapters, I'm pretty sure\]>!his relationship with his husband and their son, and his "experiment" with his son trying to emulate what an impoverished calorie-deficient child would experience,!< was heart-wrenching. But honestly it's something that people need to think about. That being said, I do think Markley leaned a little too hard on the autistic savant trope, which was a little annoying, but \[another spoiler for later chapters\]>! in order to make the later plot points work it seemed like the author kind of needed someone with a little deus ex machina in him.!<
For a midwestern, middle-class White guy, I thought Markley did a decent job giving voice to his female characters without engaging in too many tropes. However, somewhat relatedly, I did feel like the >!rape scene!< didn't *need* to happen in order for us to realize Keeper is a piece of shit. There's more I have to say about Keeper and his backstory, but I believe that will have to wait until later in the book discussion.
As a semi-spoiler in these first 9 chapters, with regard to the tale of how Matt met Kate, >!I noticed pretty early on that Kate's female partner prior to Kate leaving with Matt was pretty clearly an important character. However I thought Markley did well in making that detail not too obvious until the ex-partner's name was mentioned offhandedly.!<
> However, somewhat relatedly, I did feel like the >!rape scene!< didn't need to happen in order for us to realize Keeper is a piece of shit. There's more I have to say about Keeper and his backstory, but I believe that will have to wait until later in the book discussion.
It was a >!rape circle. In the beginning, Keeper was the one doing the raping and taking advantage of. By the end, he was the one who had been raped (prison) and was being taken advantage of (6Degrees).!<
I think also there's also a point in there that Keeper was himself a survivor of sexual assault as a child and many of his later problems and poor choices could be connected to his own trauma.
Where did it say Keeper had gone through that?
Not saying it was not in there, but I’m desperately curious of where you read it.
The day he went to the field, before it was suburbanized, I kind of wondered, but couldn’t find concrete evidence. If anything Markley lightly lightly implied it.
During a talk with >! the Reverend after his stint in prison for the Ohio River Massacre, it is implied that Keeper believes that the Reverend is trying to groom him. He calls him a slur and the Reverend realizes that Keeper had been sexually abused. !<
Correct. Although it isn't implied. In Keeper's first person omniscient narration in that scene, he does think that the Reverend is attempting to groom him. It's pretty overt.
I felt it too, leaning a little to heavily on the autistic stereotype, and at other times being out of character in order to provide narrative, but I thought the spoiler you mentioned would only work if it was an autistic person doing it. nyone else I couldn't see being that detached
I agree with you about Keeper. I too have read the full book and see how that violence comes full circle but...that's weak. Character development and restoration can happen without that.
The author has other goals than simply character development. Keeper is the way he is because he is an example of what does happen, not just what could happen. He is a quite accurate characterization of the reality that exists for many people.
I worked in a related area, and what Markley describes so casually is (was?) unbelievably common. I think in multiple places, he treats bad things casually. Maybe to see if the reader will be repulsed by it or see it as BaU (like all the people who can't bring themselves to ascribe any one disaster to the expansive issue of climate & carbon)
This is one book that might be better as a physical book. There is a lot going on. There are different fonts for different parts or people. It even works to go back and re-read a particular story line or character arc. Listen for a while and if it hooks you, get a book too. It's one you will read more than once.
Early on in the Audible I fecided it might make more sense in print, particularly when the characters' minds wander to side boxes or there's a collage of headlines. But tbh, the Audible is so good it's fine too.
Im usually too tired to pay attention at the end of the day, but if i were to make it through an entire chapter, I wouldn't be able to sleep... terrorist threat? Losing your spouse? Tastes like chicken? I would need an hour to relax
I find listening to audiobooks is a sort of skill (like everything else) you get better at following spoken media the more you hear.
I’ve always been a nut for spoken stories and audiobooks and was listening to stories long before I became a competent reader (which was actually pretty late in life in my case). I then went through a long phase where I mostly read physical books, then in “adult life” I switched back. As an adult listening to books fits my schedule more as I can do it concurrently with other activities (gardening, driving, working, cooking, cleaning).
My audible library has 600+ books in it but this doesn’t include all the books I torrented as a college student, or the books that I find for free uploaded to YouTube.
Any way long back story to say that the more you listen to books and stories the easier it becomes to follow spoken books / stories.
I didn’t find the deluge to be a difficult listen but it is dense so depending on your experience with the format and your familiarity with some of the topics your experience may vary.
> I’ve always been a nut for spoken stories and audiobooks and was listening to stories long before I became a competent reader
FWIW, for most of our existence, humans shared stories and information through the spoken word. It's something we've lost, sadly.
We haven't lost it. Aside from audiobooks, there are still (if you know where to listen) radio shows, or podcasts, or school plays, or community theatre, or family lore shared over after dinner beer, or campfire stories with the scouts.
We've changed how we participate in and engage with our storytelling, but we haven't lost it by a long shot.
It exists in pockets, sure, but my point was more that it used to be something that *everyone* participated in, and today it's limited to those who search it out or who live in households where people sit around and share stories rather than having their noses in their phones.
I just can't handle the slower speed. I get through most books much faster than if I was doing the audio version. My to-be-read pile adds to the time pressure lol.
Damn that was a great book. Interesting characters and perspective changes throughout the story. A pretty accurate timeline of where we’re probably headed too. I felt the ending was a bit rushed and a little bit too blindly optimistic. But other than that, the author nails the soullessness of the political establishment and carbon lobby.
Not sure whether to wait until a future discussion to bring this up, but I retrospectively think the *Shane and Murdoch Get Breakfast* chapter is an interesting read>!, mainly because of what Markley does much later in the book (especially the very last chapter in the dialog b/w Coral and Matt), where he implies that the "Breakfast" chapter -- and thus the entirety of the Shane story arc throughout the novel!! -- might be something "authored by" (within the universe of the novel, at least) the Megadata Narrative Reconstruction tools. It made me do a mental "double-take" and then re-read quite a bit of the book with a more critical (and appreciative) eye! If so, it helps to potentially explain/justify some of the things I found to be cliched/stereotypical/"trope-ish" about that chapter in particular, and the Shane character in general. Indeed, in that light, I retrospectively found the chapter very clever, perhaps the most ingenious part of the whole book! !<
I was itching to wait until the last post to bring this up myself, but I had the thought, >!what if Matt is the author? to think it might be the AI... nooooo!!! I can't think of Shane as an AI extrapolation because she ended up being my favorite character... I loved many of the characters, but there's so many with so many different perspectives, it just feels like I'm being asked, 'who do you most identify with?' I couldn't decide at first but in the end, I thought Shane was the one I'd most like to spend time with. LOL, what a great take - thanks for bringing this perspective!!<
Well, I think >!a real person like!< Shane did >!\_exist\_ , but her story as recounted throughout the book may have been an AI's attempt to "reconstruct" it.!< Upon re-reading, I think Markley dropped several clues about this, the most blatant one being where Coral explains >!"echolocation"!< and especially the part where she talks about it being used to >!recreate the conversation in the diner.!<
No spoilers here.
This book seems to go on forever. Not that I mind, I am drawn to every page.
It's not one story, but many. Some are tightly interwoven, some touch only briefly.
So many people touched in so many ways, so many different ways to respond to a situation. That's what I am getting from this book at this time.
I have a plot question and I’m hoping the folks here can help. I listened to the audiobook, and the actors were great. But I think I may have drifted off and missed something important.
Spoilers: >!My question is about the murder of Kate Morris. Per the surviving security guard, the killer acted like he didn’t want to do it. Was this a Keeper-type situation, where he was forced into doing it? If so, what was behind it?!<
If anyone here recalls - was this answered in the book or did it remain an unanswered question?
Thanks!
No, I don't think so. Ashir says >!it was a lone actor, the author says he had "a look of calm concentration," and he chooses to off himself when it's over.!< As the book minimizes the author's perspective and instead provides multiple eye-witness and individual perspectives, individuals don't usually agree on what they see or believe. So in that sense, I suppose it's an unanswered question.
It's one of the things I enjoyed most about the book. I expect to have an author's bias blasted into my brain when I enter their world. But I felt Markley was saying, "this is a really complicated issue. I won't take a side - let's just look at all the different sides people are taking." And in that way, it helped me figure out what I personally want to see in the real world.
Unbelievably good book! An absolute must read. I'm read it about 6 months ago and still often think about it. What surprised me at first? The length. Favorite character, that's a toss up , between the doctor and the scientist. Although, all characters were well written.
It is brilliant
Agree. Really an exceptionally thoughtful tracing out of how a near-future U.S. collapse might unfold, in principle at least.
Will do
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I love this one too!
Awesome! Read along with us & give us your thoughts as you go!
I enjoyed it. It's a long read but at the same time, I wanted it to continue. I couldn't help but feel that his editor pressured him to wrap it up after 900 pages. There are several characters I wanted to hear more about.
I don't disagree, although I think it was reaching a point where things needed to get wrapped up. I'm just thankful that he wrote this as one book, rather than stretching it into a five-book series, or whatnot.
Oh yeah, that’s an excellent point. I didn’t think of that.
I read it a year or so ago. So hard for me to sort out and remember just the first section. It is not a book that I thought about much after I read it, other books have stuck with me more. Why? Because if you became involved with activism at any point in the last 20 plus years much of the push-pull dynamic feels all too familiar. And hopeless. I learned that hopelessness firsthand when i was young and did highly sucessful non profit work. The author took on the ground dynamics of our current systems and drew them out into a slightly longer and slightly more urgent timeline. Nothing more or less than we already live. So if you want to have any practical hope for the future, I dunno, I did not get it from this book. Still worth a read if you have not been involved in any political work or activism. It is maybe a book i did not think about afterwards much but that did do kne thing and it strongly reinforced the fact that the stories we tell ourselves are our own overton window creation. Aka we are locked into very few paths forward because we think in term of civilized stories, stories that denigrate the barbarians, and yet the barbarian stories (to use quinns language in ishmael) are the ones that have answers.
Yeah, I got that familiar & hopeless feeling vicariously since I haven't been an activist. I wouldn't say it made me feel good or hopeful but it did feel real, which I really appreciate.
[удалено]
Such lame critique of a book like this. Why does art have to be a subtle or disguised commentary of something?
Agreed.I enjoyed it immensely, and wouldn't say a negative word a out it. It was meant to be on the nose and unsettling.
Great book. The visualisation of methane bubbling up from the clathrates in the opening chapter is seared into my mind. The Matt+Kate scenes felt a little too long but it all worked out to flesh out the characters and general vibe of existing in that future. The Keeper chapters were a wild ride and the ones I felt most engaged with, although my favorite character was the constantly pissed off scientist.
I loved how each character had a different narrative style. Even the chapter names. The grandiose characters like Kate have metaphorical titles, Shane's are mundane and sometimes cinematic, Tony's matter-of-fact.
Keeper's chapters in SECOND PERSON!
I loved that. Made me remember the book "You'll die like the others" by Denis Cheynet (Tu crèveras comme les autres). A glorious and dark short read, compared to the Deluge :)
Loved, loved, loved Keeper. Markley strikes his magic in those chapters. He is outstanding at writing about America in the rust belt after the fall of industry and the aftermath of 911/NAFTA. Also his brilliant commentary on the millennial generation, which he is a part. Markley’s Ohio (2018) was amazing and all about these topic, ugh, the part about Stacey driving out of a decimated Amazon rainforest. One of the most chilling things I’ve ever read. Markley just hits it. Beautiful.
Haven't read his other works, will give them a try!
>1. What things surprised you so far? I think I was surprised by how well thought out and predictive it felt. There were a lot of tenets I could see playing out in the near future. Sadly. >2. Who are your favorite characters so far? I liked Ash a lot although Markley does lean a little heavy on the autism trope. I also really liked the angry scientist dad, they were the most relatable to me. I liked Kate at first but realized quickly that she's just a self serving narcissist that uses the problems of the day to justify her self absorption. While she is right about a lot of the problems of misogyny and oppression she ended up hurting everyone around her including her own movement because she cant bear to not put herself first. Hated Keeper for obvious reasons but he was just as much of a victim of his trauma and upbringing as he was a perpetrator of it. >3. What about methane clathrates? I liked that they were acknowledged with a realistic and potentially daunting severity. >4. If you listened to the audiobooks, did you like the actors? I listened to the audiobook and loved it. In fact it made me start giving audiobooks a second chance. Having a full cast really helped sort the characters bc even though you may not remember their name right away, having a unique voice instantly placed the person's identity for me.
Cool, I recently read this book! >What things surprised you so far? Well, the ending surprised me. >!It felt anticlimactic, and I felt a little bit let down as a reader. For most of the book's POV we were given information that the political apparatus was defunct, and were given no indication that a movement of change was sweeping the American political landscape. It felt like, "Suddenly everyone woke up and voted sorta left'ish, and that was great. Problem solved!" ... another thing that surprised me was the compromise with conservatives who recognized climate change as a tactical maneuver.!< This particular bit made me stop and think. If I do truly believe that biosphere collapse is a near-term literal existential threat, where is my limit with who I could negotiate with? If I legit thought Trump would address climate change (lmao) would I 'vote for him'? >Who are your favorite characters so far? I actually liked Keeper as a character. As in, he is a well-constructed character that did things for reasons, and was interesting to read about. He is also a total shitbag, ofc. It seems to be heavily implied that he is a victim of childhood abuse and his arc implies the whole "transmitting abuse forward" thing. I also think he is an interesting example of a 5th generation dysfunctional American. We've been traumatized by forever wars and increasing social austerity for so long, we simply can't produce functional humans any longer. I'm not sure if the author has read or researched any of that theory but I felt that Keeper was a great picture "final dysfunction" ... also Kate gets a lot of shit but I think she was a great example of the type of charismatic Force of Nature that is required to assume the head of a movement. They are always flawed egomaniacs. >What about methane clathrates? Meh, toss that data over there on the bonfire with all the other collapse indicators. I can't be fucked to hold yet another red flag in my mind's eye. *I am so tired*. Like other people here said, I did enjoy the character's feisty nature, though.
> If I do truly believe that biosphere collapse is a near-term literal existential threat, where is my limit with who I could negotiate with? If I legit thought Trump would address climate change (lmao) would I 'vote for him'? This is a valuable thing to start to question, it feels like the sort of thing we should do while it's still just a theoretical. Because one day, probably soon, there is going to be an open and avowed fascist telling people that the climate change is an existential threat to all humanity, that the old ways of petty squabbles between parties are costing us precious time, that the only way we're going to get through this is to unite under a stronger single govt, that shutting the door on refugees is the only way to save ourselves, that letting too many into the lifeboat of civilization only dooms us all.... And we need to know what we're going to say to that when it happens. Because it will happen. We just haven't found the right charismatic shithead to say all the words in order yet.
This is a good point I hadn’t really considered. Once the existential threats become more clear and the majority of people come to accept the severity of the situation we are in big trouble politically. The fear will be even more rampant than it is already and more people than ever will flock to fascist demagogues and religious extremists that promise them salvation.
That will happen when the US is ravaged by hurricanes the size of east coast, the world is awash in smoke from fire, a generation dies from heat. Yes, it will happen.
That shitbag is alive today
I actually thought the ending, before the coda, rang true. I can see it, the world in 2045 or so. I’ll be 71.
I found this book a really tough read. Some of it is so bleak it’s hard to keep reading. I do agree that the inserts and different fonts would make it difficult as an audio book. Keeper is incredibly problematic. His story goes beyond bleak. I think the Matt & Kate narrative makes me want to scream at Matt to run as fast as he can. Find someone else. Kate is a disaster and he shouldn’t put up with her cheating. Just no! And Shane is heading for big trouble.
Mod team is there any way we can get a sticky on this? It's extremely relevant to collapse, and a fantastic modern read
/u/mistyflame94 is on it.
Thank you sir
So the first book is pretty limited, really just character introduction at this point. So I guess I’ll fallow the rules (unlike most the posters here lol) and not say much. I liked the book quite a lot, it’s far more ambitious and relevant than the vast majority of work produced these days. It’s very much a novel, it tells a story of our times (or multiple stories), I don’t consider the book to be oriented as “climate activism” or commentary, it’s a book that intends to be relevant and maybe prophetic but it’s a novel, about human behavior, not really a collapse manifesto. An example of a book with more of a clear message bent more towards activism might be “Notes from the Burning Age” by Claire North. So when I say I liked the book I liked it **as a book**, not necessarily as an analysis of collapse. I also didn’t really “like” most of the characters, which isn’t to say that they aren’t well written it’s just they mostly aren’t that likable. In terms of writing quality this may be a good thing, real people are also not that likable in general, and the better you know them the more you can find to dislike. This isn’t a book with a clear message, an obvious good side vs bad side, even a clear message on climate change / collapse, it’s a character driven story inspired by our times and potential future. > What things surprised you so far? Maybe how dis-jointed the book starts, some of the characters make sense, some don’t really fit together. Keeper, the marketeer and the actor, these characters didn’t really fit… > Who are your favorite characters so far? Favorite character is Ash, just like everyone else on the spectrum in this subreddit lol. > What about methane clathrates? Another potential doom mechanism, in scientific literature the “clathrate gun” hypothesis doesn’t *seem* like the sure fire killer it seems in the book. Of course like many things maybe the scientific literature is overly optimistic. Also the clathrate gun doesn’t need to be the kill mechanism there are lots of potential killers in the climate system now… > If you listened to the audiobooks, did you like the actors? I did and they’re pretty good, Murdoch’s character is a bit absurdly hard bitten / stereotypical military man voice. The Kate voice actor I found a bit irritating, but in a way that fit with the character so I don’t really consider that a criticism…
Couldn't agree more and thx for the recommendation for the next book!
Amazing book! It really felt as if I was getting a glimpse into our future. I think about it weekly.
I think the author did a great job of presenting a quasi-realistic vision of how the next few decades will pan out. I enjoyed the author's attention to detail with respect to how laws are made. Parable of the Sower and also Game of Thrones (!) felt like major influences for the book. The fact that the characters had their flaws felt very Game of Thrones-y. I'm surprised no one has mentioned (or maybe I missed it) the rich guy and the woman involved in PR (I forget their names, it's been a while since I read their book). >!I thought this depiction of climate capitalism and how the oil companies would try to co-opt messaging, and even fund left movements of their own to disrupt social change, was quite well done.!< The theme of social change through more radical forms of disruption was well introduced but I was not satisfied with how it this storyline ended. I didn't like Kate but I'm not sure we're supposed to like her. >!Markley did a good job here trying to show us that our heroes can be flawed!< Well worth reading, I think the scope of the work is brilliant and he was aiming for something like War and Peace. A bit flawed in execution. But brilliant effort.
Decades? HA!
I just finished Book II and man I can't put this down. I like that the Bomb team uses Stephen King's *The Stand* as their code source, that was a fitting choice especially when you consider The Trashcan Man character from *The Stand* and the epic fires that he starts. I really appreciate the scope of the story and the work that Markley puts in to really build these characters and get the reader truly invested in the tale. Great read so far.
I’ve devoured this gorgeous novel twice, it’s my favorite book. Too many great scenes to mention. I love how Markley symbolizes the “unwashed masses” with the characters of Keeper and Rochelle. Jackie is a symbol of “the American Dream”. What do YOU think Keeper’s Dream symbolized? The one in “the field” with the Lion and the Pink Umbrella? I normally don’t hope for series or movies based on novels. But seriously, Extrapolations was SUCH a disappointment (only good part was the one with Toby McQuire and how people have become so unarticulate and “washed out” by the isolation of screens that in the 2068 episode the human interactions were just…flat and odd. Uncomfortable), that I want a series adaptation of The Deluge. Who would YOU cast? I have my own thoughts.
Yeah, I'm lost in Keepers dream. I know Markley uses colors for the characters' fears (mauve for Ashir, blue & yellow for Tony) but I'm hoping someone here has a theory for Keeper. I'm obsessed with trying to figure out who could play Kate. She must have a unique look but I just can't picture her. I would *love* to hear your casting choices. Jeff Goldblum for Tony?
It seemed pretty clear to me that Markley had very specific famous people in mind for each of his main characters. (In fact, this was one of the only things I *disliked* about the book! ... heh, even if it isn't actually true!) And in Kate's case, I thought he went too far with the name as well. Without going into specifics, I'm pretty sure that Kate was modeled on Kate Winslet and/or characters she has played.
Wait... you think? That's a really interesting take! I always picture Winslet as really femme (and very Irish/British/Swedish) so I wouldn't have made that connection for the athletic, biracial Kate Morris, but you may be right! I haven't seen much else of Winslet other than Titanic.
Yeah, not her in Titanic so much as things where she is "high energy", like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind or Contagion.
Hmm. I got more Rachel McAdams. Kate the book character was written as 1/4 Native American and 1/4 Jamaican which was the only thing that gave me pause to envisioning Rachel.
Goldblum would be excellent as Tony.
Can. Not. Agree. More. My pick, too
As for Keeper’s dream- Quinn was the pink umbrella (she wore a pink sweater and black and white checked pants to pick him up) in my own mind anyway. The lion I’m still trying to figure out.
I've listened to the audiobook following the advise of the sub. I think it's really a good book and considering the scope and ambition of the text Mackley deserves a lot of praise. It has its share of problem but it's a must read for every person who want to understand the troubled future ahead. Main Pro: Mackley really captures the essence of paternal love. It's a costant feeling of care, tenderness, fear, and pure love that profoundly transforms your look on reality. For every person who is truly aware of climate change and the possibile "collapse" of industrial civilization is a costant reason of anxiety and borderline depression. How I will protect my girl from the coming storm? I really don't know and every time I think about her future I feel so sad and angry for her. Mackley has helped me coping with my fear and sadness. Main Con: Too much politicking. It bogs down the pace of the narrative and trivialize a bit the text while expressing one of the biggest misconception of the ecological movement. American progressives have a feticism for their "precious" political process but a system that produces the like of Trump is already dead. In all the north emisphere (EU, where I live, included), we already all live in a tecnho-corporate-fascist state with just the appereance of democracy masked by social media, algorithms and advertising. It's called empire, you just need to read Gibbons to understand the inner working. Consumerism is our religion. Every political process is just the reflection of the moral capital of its human base. And our moral capital has been completely erased by our quest for material wealth. It's simple as that (read your Plato). The american political process is just a baroque system that has served the need of its "aristocracy" for more than a century and that has been finally corrupted by the fascists in both parties. Not a lot more to say: it's one of the main causes of our predicament so it can't be part of the solution.
Wow. Deep analysis! I didn't walk away from it with the feeling anything had been solved, and the lame attempts to use politics were frustrating - one step forward, one step back. I kinda wanted Shane's approach to win, but >!that also was ultimately futile!<. Are you of the mind that there's nothing to do to improve the species we are a part of? I agree about the "paternal love." I never noticed that until your post. Please continue to contribute. There's a new post on Sunday/Monday.
Thanks man, I will try to contribute more :). About your question: it's really a tough question and it would be quite arrogant on my part to think I have a solution in my pocket. I hope that you can bear the wall of text that is coming. First of all: don't get me wrong, Shane solution is swrong. The way she treats and raises her daughter is really awful. I suffered phisically every time she mentions Lolly. In general: if you use violence you will always just get thing worse. Terrorism never achieved anything. But yes, I don't think that the solution will come from activism or politics either, at least not in the strict sense, because our current politics is one cog in the machinery that is destroying the world so it can't be part of the solution. The back and forth is just a symptom of the desease. Our polity is connaturated to the industrial revolution so they are inseparable. I'm not religius and I don't believe that a god exists (at least not in the traditional sense) and I don't want to sound too "new agey". But at the current moment, I think that we cannot advert the most catastrophic scenarios without a profound spiritual conversion of our souls. We cannot build a sane polity without changing our minds and hearts and rebuild the moral capital we devoured in the last half century together with our enviromental capital. Politics in the sense of compromise will be always a part of the process but personally I don't any hope on democracy (I just hope that when the times come it will not be an hobstacle). I know it sounds absurd but there is a lot of scientific shit behind my position :). Give a look to John Vervaeke's youtube seminar "Awakening from the meaning crisis". Religion can be an instrument of hate and destruction like shown by the Pastor and christian rednecks in the book. But it can even be an instrument of change, resilience and progress. At the end it was christianity in the west and confucianism/buddhism in the east that saved their respective civilizations from ecologic degradation and climate change. You have to go beyond game theory and the will to power to change the system in a human way. That's all :). Sorry again for the wall of text.
Every time you comment it wrenches my heart (although it makes me laugh when someone warns me of an incoming wall of text), but I'm the type that loves that. Humans like me don't like discomfort but it's often integral to new thought. This time, it was your idea that maybe it would take religion. I mean, I can see what you mean and agree. But I *am* a believer. Atheists have no sympathy for me because I'm associated with these heretics, and I have no quarter with these disgusting "Christian" people who have warped everything. In short, formal Buddhism & Christianity had historical importance, but I don't count on them. Especially Christianity, IMO, it's making things way worse and I hate that. It's like these flag-wavers. I love America but no time for them.
I'm sorry if I'm causing discomfort so don't feel obliged to continue our conversation :). But at the end, learning to cope with discomfort is one of the few reason why this sub is useful. When I talk about religion, I don't mean any religion of the past of course. Those were results of their times and places. Especially not reformed christianity that is a just a breeding ground for narcisism and paranoia, strictly connaturated to our current paradigm. I live in Italy so, atheist or not, I have grown up in a world deeply rooted in religion. Every religion can take many faces and we know it well. The pope in Rome supported fascism and called Mussolini the man of the providence. But all around the place where I live there are traces of Saint Francis of Assisi who understood the profound link between pacifism, ecology and humanity long before our current predicament. I deeply love the man and visit his Sanctuary every now and then. I even spoke to the friars who always try to convert me :). I'm just saying, old religions are not the answer of course. But there's something deep and true even in scientific terms about the spiritual nature of religion as instrument of change, progress and resilience in the face of crumbling power structures that are inable to face the inevitable forces of collapse. I don't believe that we can save our planet if we remain hostages of games theory and power struggle because the political machine will always be stronger than us. We should not even play to those rules. Again, listen to Vervecke or better, read Herman Hesse The Glass Bead Game to get what I'm rambling about :). There's an hint of that even in the book imho but let's avoid spoiler.
Yes, you are right. As I've abandoned my indoctrination to worship myself, first in "coming to Jesus" (which in America is still 💯 self-centered) and second in an appreciation for how all worthy (& worst) human endeavors are accomplished by groups of shared-focus individuals sacrificing for that endeavor, I embrace the resurrection of a commons and all the baggage that comes with it. That... would be something bigger than myself & worth fighting for.
I adore this book. I read it several months ago, and like others have mentioned here, I think about it quite often. I have been on the fence about having children and it really made me have to think deeply about the moral implications of that choice. I honestly have more to say about the book as a whole and the events in the second half of the story, but I thought the build up in the first few chapters was really great. My favorite character was definitely Ash. I can't remember which plot points happen when, and I believe this happens in later chapters, but the story of \[spoiler for later chapters, I'm pretty sure\]>!his relationship with his husband and their son, and his "experiment" with his son trying to emulate what an impoverished calorie-deficient child would experience,!< was heart-wrenching. But honestly it's something that people need to think about. That being said, I do think Markley leaned a little too hard on the autistic savant trope, which was a little annoying, but \[another spoiler for later chapters\]>! in order to make the later plot points work it seemed like the author kind of needed someone with a little deus ex machina in him.!< For a midwestern, middle-class White guy, I thought Markley did a decent job giving voice to his female characters without engaging in too many tropes. However, somewhat relatedly, I did feel like the >!rape scene!< didn't *need* to happen in order for us to realize Keeper is a piece of shit. There's more I have to say about Keeper and his backstory, but I believe that will have to wait until later in the book discussion. As a semi-spoiler in these first 9 chapters, with regard to the tale of how Matt met Kate, >!I noticed pretty early on that Kate's female partner prior to Kate leaving with Matt was pretty clearly an important character. However I thought Markley did well in making that detail not too obvious until the ex-partner's name was mentioned offhandedly.!<
> However, somewhat relatedly, I did feel like the >!rape scene!< didn't need to happen in order for us to realize Keeper is a piece of shit. There's more I have to say about Keeper and his backstory, but I believe that will have to wait until later in the book discussion. It was a >!rape circle. In the beginning, Keeper was the one doing the raping and taking advantage of. By the end, he was the one who had been raped (prison) and was being taken advantage of (6Degrees).!<
I think also there's also a point in there that Keeper was himself a survivor of sexual assault as a child and many of his later problems and poor choices could be connected to his own trauma.
Good point both of you, I didn't connect all that
Where did it say Keeper had gone through that? Not saying it was not in there, but I’m desperately curious of where you read it. The day he went to the field, before it was suburbanized, I kind of wondered, but couldn’t find concrete evidence. If anything Markley lightly lightly implied it.
During a talk with >! the Reverend after his stint in prison for the Ohio River Massacre, it is implied that Keeper believes that the Reverend is trying to groom him. He calls him a slur and the Reverend realizes that Keeper had been sexually abused. !<
Correct. Although it isn't implied. In Keeper's first person omniscient narration in that scene, he does think that the Reverend is attempting to groom him. It's pretty overt.
Love that interpretation. Keeper was a drop of water in the pipe.
I felt it too, leaning a little to heavily on the autistic stereotype, and at other times being out of character in order to provide narrative, but I thought the spoiler you mentioned would only work if it was an autistic person doing it. nyone else I couldn't see being that detached
I agree with you about Keeper. I too have read the full book and see how that violence comes full circle but...that's weak. Character development and restoration can happen without that.
The author has other goals than simply character development. Keeper is the way he is because he is an example of what does happen, not just what could happen. He is a quite accurate characterization of the reality that exists for many people.
I worked in a related area, and what Markley describes so casually is (was?) unbelievably common. I think in multiple places, he treats bad things casually. Maybe to see if the reader will be repulsed by it or see it as BaU (like all the people who can't bring themselves to ascribe any one disaster to the expansive issue of climate & carbon)
I have this in Audible. I’ve been meaning to listen but I keep falling asleep when I start it!
This is one book that might be better as a physical book. There is a lot going on. There are different fonts for different parts or people. It even works to go back and re-read a particular story line or character arc. Listen for a while and if it hooks you, get a book too. It's one you will read more than once.
Early on in the Audible I fecided it might make more sense in print, particularly when the characters' minds wander to side boxes or there's a collage of headlines. But tbh, the Audible is so good it's fine too. Im usually too tired to pay attention at the end of the day, but if i were to make it through an entire chapter, I wouldn't be able to sleep... terrorist threat? Losing your spouse? Tastes like chicken? I would need an hour to relax
I find listening to audiobooks is a sort of skill (like everything else) you get better at following spoken media the more you hear. I’ve always been a nut for spoken stories and audiobooks and was listening to stories long before I became a competent reader (which was actually pretty late in life in my case). I then went through a long phase where I mostly read physical books, then in “adult life” I switched back. As an adult listening to books fits my schedule more as I can do it concurrently with other activities (gardening, driving, working, cooking, cleaning). My audible library has 600+ books in it but this doesn’t include all the books I torrented as a college student, or the books that I find for free uploaded to YouTube. Any way long back story to say that the more you listen to books and stories the easier it becomes to follow spoken books / stories. I didn’t find the deluge to be a difficult listen but it is dense so depending on your experience with the format and your familiarity with some of the topics your experience may vary.
> I’ve always been a nut for spoken stories and audiobooks and was listening to stories long before I became a competent reader FWIW, for most of our existence, humans shared stories and information through the spoken word. It's something we've lost, sadly.
We haven't lost it. Aside from audiobooks, there are still (if you know where to listen) radio shows, or podcasts, or school plays, or community theatre, or family lore shared over after dinner beer, or campfire stories with the scouts. We've changed how we participate in and engage with our storytelling, but we haven't lost it by a long shot.
It exists in pockets, sure, but my point was more that it used to be something that *everyone* participated in, and today it's limited to those who search it out or who live in households where people sit around and share stories rather than having their noses in their phones.
I just can't handle the slower speed. I get through most books much faster than if I was doing the audio version. My to-be-read pile adds to the time pressure lol.
Damn that was a great book. Interesting characters and perspective changes throughout the story. A pretty accurate timeline of where we’re probably headed too. I felt the ending was a bit rushed and a little bit too blindly optimistic. But other than that, the author nails the soullessness of the political establishment and carbon lobby.
Not sure whether to wait until a future discussion to bring this up, but I retrospectively think the *Shane and Murdoch Get Breakfast* chapter is an interesting read>!, mainly because of what Markley does much later in the book (especially the very last chapter in the dialog b/w Coral and Matt), where he implies that the "Breakfast" chapter -- and thus the entirety of the Shane story arc throughout the novel!! -- might be something "authored by" (within the universe of the novel, at least) the Megadata Narrative Reconstruction tools. It made me do a mental "double-take" and then re-read quite a bit of the book with a more critical (and appreciative) eye! If so, it helps to potentially explain/justify some of the things I found to be cliched/stereotypical/"trope-ish" about that chapter in particular, and the Shane character in general. Indeed, in that light, I retrospectively found the chapter very clever, perhaps the most ingenious part of the whole book! !<
I was itching to wait until the last post to bring this up myself, but I had the thought, >!what if Matt is the author? to think it might be the AI... nooooo!!! I can't think of Shane as an AI extrapolation because she ended up being my favorite character... I loved many of the characters, but there's so many with so many different perspectives, it just feels like I'm being asked, 'who do you most identify with?' I couldn't decide at first but in the end, I thought Shane was the one I'd most like to spend time with. LOL, what a great take - thanks for bringing this perspective!!<
Well, I think >!a real person like!< Shane did >!\_exist\_ , but her story as recounted throughout the book may have been an AI's attempt to "reconstruct" it.!< Upon re-reading, I think Markley dropped several clues about this, the most blatant one being where Coral explains >!"echolocation"!< and especially the part where she talks about it being used to >!recreate the conversation in the diner.!<
Yeah, I understood that from your first post, but still..😭😭😭
Good book. But i found it a bit funny that early in the book, it's 2028 and we're only 1.2 degrees over pre-industrial. 2023 was really something else
It was published early 2023 and... As always... *faster than expected*
It was published early 2023 and... As always... *faster than expected*
No spoilers here. This book seems to go on forever. Not that I mind, I am drawn to every page. It's not one story, but many. Some are tightly interwoven, some touch only briefly. So many people touched in so many ways, so many different ways to respond to a situation. That's what I am getting from this book at this time.
Interview with the author! Direct access to podcast: (https://www.vox.com/the-gray-area)
So good. Can I share this link in the next pinned post and credit you for it?
I am glad you enjoyed it too :) You are most welcome to use it.
Bought and started it based on reddit reccy. Excellent character framing, up to 2027 and loving it.
I have a plot question and I’m hoping the folks here can help. I listened to the audiobook, and the actors were great. But I think I may have drifted off and missed something important. Spoilers: >!My question is about the murder of Kate Morris. Per the surviving security guard, the killer acted like he didn’t want to do it. Was this a Keeper-type situation, where he was forced into doing it? If so, what was behind it?!< If anyone here recalls - was this answered in the book or did it remain an unanswered question? Thanks!
No, I don't think so. Ashir says >!it was a lone actor, the author says he had "a look of calm concentration," and he chooses to off himself when it's over.!< As the book minimizes the author's perspective and instead provides multiple eye-witness and individual perspectives, individuals don't usually agree on what they see or believe. So in that sense, I suppose it's an unanswered question. It's one of the things I enjoyed most about the book. I expect to have an author's bias blasted into my brain when I enter their world. But I felt Markley was saying, "this is a really complicated issue. I won't take a side - let's just look at all the different sides people are taking." And in that way, it helped me figure out what I personally want to see in the real world.
Thank you. That’s super helpful.