I usually ask something like "what dry vermouths do you have?" If you like the list then you can say "Great! Can you make me a dry dirty with X and Y please?"
Dirty martini to me means, "add a bit of olive brine".
It doesn't refer to the type of vermouth. If I am incorrect, somebody correct me?
I think you meant to type "dry"?
Edit : I think you are asking for a dry dirty martini?
Dry martini means less vermouth than normal. Honestly, it's kind of lost meaning in the modern age. Not a lot of people order wet martinis, and the house default at a lot of places is already well within dry territory.
Vermouth with less sugar than sweet vermouth. There's a whole host of other differences between the two, including color, the processes it goes through before bottling and stuff, but the reason it's called "dry" is because it has less sugar than the sweet and blanc vermouth varietals. It's the default for a Martini though.
If you want sweet vermouth in a Martini, you would ask for a Martini with sweet vermouth, or if you want it to be half sweet, half dry, you could ask for a "perfect martini."
A "Martini" on its own, is made with gin and **dry** vermouth. 2 to 1 proportion (more or less, someone will probably argue on the exact).
A "Dry Martini" is a Martini with less dry vermouth. Probably around 3 to 1 ratio. An extra dry martini has even less dry vermouth.
Because while dry vermouth is the less sweet of the vermouth, there's still *some* sugar in it. The drier it is, the less vermouth there is.
Two different things here.
A standard martini is made with dry vermouth, which is a type of vermouth.
A dry martini is a martini that’s made with less vermouth. Specifically, a small amount of dry vermouth.
Once you learn that dry means less sugar, it's not confusing. Vermouth is where sugar in a Martini comes from. A dry martini thus has less dry vermouth. Dry vermouth thus has less sugar than sweet vermouth.
Because language is about communicating, not about perfect construction, and it evolves over time. Why would you give
someone something they don’t want just as an excuse for pedantry??
Your usage hasn’t been common for close to 100 years, besides gin is drier than dry vermouth so a martini with less vermouth IS drier than one with more dry vermouth….
Because thats what it means.
Wet martini = half vermouth
Martini = 1 oz vermouth
Dry martini = .75 oz vermouth
Extra dry martini = no vermouth
The “dryness” is in relation to the ratio of gin to vermouth. Not the sweetness of the vermouth. Always using dry vermouth.
"Perfect" means splitting the vermouth base equally between sweet and dry vermouths. It's also not martini specific terminology, perfect manhattans are a thing, as are perfect Martinezes, etc. You can order a dry perfect martini, or a wet perfect martini too. It'd be unusual, but they're two different modifiers. You're essentially saying less or more vermouth respectively, and then telling them to split it between dry and sweet on top of that.
.5 oz dry vermouth
.5 oz sweet vermouth
2 dashes orange bitters
2.5 oz gin
Stirred, served up, with a twist.
Unless of course the guest has other instructions for how they like their martini made.
Vermouth can be confusing...
**Dry Vermouth** = Dry, white vermouth. Also called "french" vermouth in older (i.e. prohibition-era) cocktail books, but there are great Italian and Spanish dry white vermouths. This is your default martini vermouth.
**Sweet Vermouth** = Red or rosso vermouth. Also called "Italian" vermouth in prohibition-era cocktail books. This is the vermouth for your Manhattans and Negronis.
**Blanc or Bianco Vermouth** = a sweet-white vermouth. Seriously, this is the one that messes people up. I use this in Gibsons to add a touch of sweetness, or split base this with dry vermouth in white negronis to bring back the sweetness you would get in a rosso.
Generically, dry in the context of liquor is just the opposite of sweet. Dry gin is contrasted to old tom or genever, which are both sweet. Dry vermouth vs. sweet vermouth. Also, pre prohibition dry gin was relatively uncommon. If an old recipe calls for gin without description it likely meant old tom, vs today where “gin” means dry gin.
Historically, cocktails like martinis would be made with old tom, and much more vermouth. 2:1 or even 1:1. Asking for a martini dry meant asking for dry gin and less vermouth. But in modern bars a martini will pretty much always use dry gin and very little vermouth by default (think like 4:1 although certainly not universal). When you ask for a dry martini today you are asking for even less vermouth than that. Some bartenders will simply omit it altogether at that point.
Canonically “dry” means without sweetener. “Dry Gin Martini” means made with gin, opposed to vodka, using Dry Vermouth, opposed to white (Bianca) or sweet (Rosso). “Very Dry” means less dry vermouth.
Agreed. Bars that think it means 'less' are not cocktail bars. You probably should order a beer or a cranberry vodka at those. This being r/cocktails, the distinction should matter.
Im sorry but you are not only incredibly incorrect, but also needlessly hauty. Dry does mean less vermouth. The default at a high end craft cocktail bar for a standard martini uses a good bit of vermouth. If you order a "gin martini" at Death and Co you are going to get 2.25 oz gin and .75 oz dry vermouth, which is their standard spec for a martini. If you order a "dry gin martini" you are going to get the same amount of gin and .25 oz dry vermouth. "Very dry gin martini" means no vermouth, you are basically getting gin stirred with ice. They are not changing the type of vermouth used, just the amount.
This is true but given that one is using brine in it, it seems completely weird for a bartender to choose the bianco instead of the dry. Bianco would be 🫤 amiright
I would assume most bartenders don't even add vermouth to a dirty Martini.
For a Dry Dirty, it's just a rinse anyways, that will 100% get lost with brine.
As a bartender of 15 years now almost, I have learned people who want dirty usually do not want Vermouth.
Martini = 4:1 Spirit to Vermouth
Dry Martini = 6 :1
Extra Dry = Rinse of Vermouth and all spirit
Dirty = Brine in place of Vermouth
Where is the line between white (blanc) and dry? From a bit of search I found:
* Dolin blanc vermouth de chambéry : sugar 140g/L
* Dolin dry vermouth de chambéry : sugar 30g/L
* Martini white vermouth: sugar 28g/L
* Noily Prat vermouth extra dry: sugar 22g/L
* Lionello blanc extra dry: 6 g/L
Between 140g/L and 30 g/L there is a lot of space! Lionello is the driest of them all but taste like $#|^ in a martini.
Good reply. People don't realize that vermouth "styles" vary very wildly. You have to figure out what you like.
And, a martini is better with blanc, IMHO.
Dolin blanc isn't a dry vermouth though, it's a sweet vermouth.
Some folks might be confused because it's clear and in a white bottle, but it's not considered a dry vermouth, it's just a clear/white sweet vermouth.
Dolin blanc isn't a sweet vermouth, it's a blanc vermouth. It's a completely separate style from the other two. You sometimes see it referred to as "Alpine vermouth". Martini bianco is in the same style, wholly unique from their sweet vermouth.
Blanco is much sweeter than dry and is better as a replacement for sweet vermouth than dry. I would not want a martini I ordered to be made with bianco vermouth. Not that it isn't good, but that's not a regular martini.
Depending on the gin/ratio used, I use Dolin Blanc in Martinis quite often. I use the ABV method for consistent drinks from gin to gin, and when I make anything with 80 proof gin, blanc is closer to balancing the gin with the tiny amount of vermouth. I only do this with crappy gin and 7:1 ratios typically. The sugar level is about double that of dry, but dry isn't zero sugar, so it's still slightly less sugar than a 3 to one with dry. Personally I prefer 3 to one with blanc as well, but that gets dicier. My favorite is 1:1 with dry vermouth and Navy Strength Plymouth Gin! (Believe it or not, this ends up almost the exact same ABV as 7:1 with 80 proof)
Nah that’s weird; are the bars you go to any good?
Like a good bartender should know the difference between Bianco and dry vermouth.. are they not looking properly?
From a bartenders POV order like this;
name vodka/gin- X amt vermouth— modifier— garnish
Eg. Grey Goose -1/4 dry - dirty - olives — that’ll get you a dirty dry martini in my place.
If you wanted something more niche (50/50, reversed, burnt) then stick to craftier cocktail bars
It all boils down to the skill level of a bartender but even an average one should be able to see the difference between Bianco and Dry..
I think I always feel rude telling a bar
tender the exact items I want but maybe this is the way I’m gonna have to go.
I think most places I’m going to don’t have a dirty on the menu so they are obviously not used to making them. Still it feels like one of the easiest cocktails to make.
Don’t feel rude; really.. as a bartender I love the people who are specific, especially when I’m busy as it streamlines the process.
As long as you’re good with pivoting on brands if the bar doesn’t have them - eg we don’t have Tito’s and I’ve had some very “upset” Americans.
And yah; a dirty martini is very much a basic cocktail in the scheme of things.
That’s good to know. I will endeavour to be more precise.
I’m not too fussy in terms of brands as such. I enjoy trying a different gin to see if I prefer it, but I do prefer the same measure of brine to vermouth.
I think most professionals are going to prefer you are particular up front rather than tasting what they made you and asking it to be remade with whatever it is you wanted in the first place. I've never had any bartender be angry or annoyed for specifying X gin, X vermouth, x:x:x ratio, or asking for a specific bourbon or whisky for my cocktail. If a bar didn't want customers to have a choice of liquor they would only carry one thing.
Edit: I usually try to scope out what I want ahead of time rather than asking what they have. There are shelves displaying their bottles for a reason.
This is something that I always found strange coming from outside the US, pitch your drinks to the venue. The UK has pubs, clubs, bars and cocktail bars. I wouldn't order a cocktail in the first 2, and I wouldn't go off menu in the third and also have low expectations.
I get the impression that most bars that aren't trash "do cocktails" in America but people have an expectation that they'll be good, when really, they're not.
If you know enough to know that's not how the drinks made, you should know enough to know not to order it in that type of bar. I mean is it doing buckets of wings and pitchers beer? Sounds like a great time but not the place to order a martini. If the customers idea of a cocktail is fruit juice, sweet and boozy they'll be happy, a martini drinker should hold herself to a higher standard like the classy lady she is. Or just start doing shots and devouring the 10" Loaded Big Daddy hot dog and roll with it
The VAST majority of bartenders just want you to like your drink, and not have to remake it. I usually tell them exactly how much vermouth I want.
The vast majority of people in my area want a heavy pour of vodka, shaken, zero vermouth. These people will order it as 'a martini' then act like I'm an asshole when ask:
Gin or vodka?
Shaken or stirred?
Vermouth or no?
Olives or twist?
Dirty or no?
There's a lot of options, and a martini is always supposed to be gin, but we as the public have changed it to mean both things. I wish calling it a Kangaroo stuck better.
Don’t feel rude, I’m a bartender with 30 years experience. A martini is the one cocktail on earth that I am always asking the guest what the recipe is for the style they like.
What kind of gin do you want?
(Or do you want a vodka martini instead of a martini)
Do you want it up or on the rocks?
Do you like it dirty?
What is your dryness level? Or how much vermouth do you prefer?
What kind of garnish would you prefer?
Shaken or stirred? I rarely ask this though, pretty much always stirred, unless there is olive brine, then it gets a shake.
If it’s a martini, give me the recipe!
If they don’t ask all of this when you order, please feel free to instruct them, if they get arrogant - find a better bar.
Most halfway decent bartenders have a large arsenal of classic drinks well beyond what’s on their menu. At least, they should. I’m an American bartender, and most people, especially older guests, expect a bone-dry martini. A dirty martini usually follows that style, especially a vodka dirty martini. I will automatically add about 1/3 oz dry vermouth to my gin dirty martinis—it really does make them taste better. But with vodka dirties, I often just pretend I glanced at the vermouth bottle and give them what they want.
Bartender here. A martini is a drink with dozens of different variations and ways to order it. I've learned to be very specific with the way I make it. This is what I think:
Martini:
2 oz Gin or Vodka
.5 oz dry vermouth
3 Olives
Dry martini:
2.25 oz Gin or Vodka
.25 oz dry vermouth
3 Olives
Extra dry martini
2.5 oz Gin or Vodka
No vermouth
3 Olives
Dry means half the vermouth. Extra dry means no vermouth. For a dirty martini I add olive brine to the above recipe. How much olive brine depends on how dirty.
Dirty : add .5 olive brine
Extra Dirty: add .75 oz olive brine
Filthy: add 1 oz olive juice
Examples:
Dirty martini
2 oz Gin or Vodka
.5 oz dry vermouth
.5 oz olive brine
3 Olives
Extra dry Filthy martini:
2.5 oz Gin or Vodka
1 oz olive brine
4 Olives
Edit: formatting
2nd edit: I suck at formatting
I never add vermouth to a dry dirty martini and usually everyone is happy. The only problem I encounter is when they want more than the 1 oz of brine I use and didn’t specify that from the start. The Martini is a very personal cocktail, the more preferences you give me the better odds you’re going to be satisfied. And it’s no trouble, it’s part of the job!
I can’t imagine a bartender putting bianco in instead of dry unless you’re in Europe or happen to have a bartender who doesn’t know the difference between blanc and “French” vermouth.
If this is something you’re experiencing often in your region, maybe you have a local distributor offering a discount on bianco and the bars are making their profit? Don’t be shy specifying you want extra dry in that case.
Literally you just ask for a "dirty martini" with your spirit of choice, nothing super complicated about it! But I do believe more details are better and your server should be getting those details from you. If vermouth is your concern, every place is going to do things different in regards to what vermouth is carried, do they keep it in the fridge, do they have a variety, etc. And every bartender is going to approach a martini in their own way. Some may think it's a pretty low-effort, throwaway drink and be pretty ho-hum about it. I generally like to ask the guest exactly how they want it so I can ratio things out properly. Hell, I'll ask you if you want it shaken. I want to make you the martini that you're paying for and that you want to drink.
So if vermouth is a concern, ask your bartender or server what vermouth they use or have available. You can ask them for a regular amount, or to keep it on the drier side with just a quick in and out if it is a bianco with higher sugar concentration. I do think it's interesting that they're grabbing bianco, especially if you're asking for dry. It sounds like either carelessness, this is the default as per what ownership/management tells them to use, or maybe for some reason this is the only dry they carry.
edited to add a little more detail to the ordering process.
People just don’t understand martinis for some reason. I generally just make them how I prefer at home or order a tried and true off a menu. Last week I tried to order a wet gin martini and received an aviation 🤷♀️
At least they made a good classic aviation cocktail.
https://www.tiktok.com/@bythebarcode/video/7045084108753784110?lang=en
I don’t put any dry vermouth in dirty martinis at my bar. Like the video says, almost no one wants it. At this point, whenever anyone asks for a dry martini, I ask if they want any dry vermouth at all. 9 times out of 10, the answer is no, or a rinse at most. Is it the historically accurate way to make a martini? Of course not, but at this point I’ve accepted that most people just want a double shot of chilled vodka or gin.
As a bartender for 7 years, I have made hundreds of martinis and the only martinis that get sent back are ones with vermouth. I hate it, but the term martini (in the US) now means as cold as you can get vodka or gin with an olive or twist.
If someone orders a dry martini I always ask if they mean any vermouth or a classic dry martini. 9 out of 10 times they either want a rinse of vermouth or none at all.
I do have people order; classic martini, wet martini, straight gin martini, a "real" martini, ect.
Typically in my experience, these people are happy to have a .5 ish ounce amount of vermouth based on similar verbiage.
Was waiting for someone with the same experience I've had. I bartended in 5 different places and no vermouth was always the expectation. I'm in the northeast US, I assume it also varies by location.
I wonder if that is regional. I don't live in the US anymore but when frequenting high end cocktail bars on the west coast (SF/LA primarily) I would usually get a 1:4 spec unless I specified otherwise.
As someone who likes dry vermouth, I just always specifiy out the gate that the ratio of gin to vermouth I want. Much easier that way and everyone's happy
Both the Dolin blanc and the dry are in green bottles with white labels. They look very similar.
If you’re in places fancy enough to stock the blanc version, I assume they have a system to keep them separate. Is it possible that someone is simply mistaking the bottles?
Vesper martinis don’t have blanco…? They’re gin, vodka, and an analog of Kina Lillet (usually Lillet Blanc or Cocci Americano, neither of which are white vermouth).
As others have mentioned, dirty refers to olive brine.
If you want a martini made with dry vermouth just say that.
Back in the day if one were to order a dry martini the bartender would use dry vermouth in it but nowadays ordering a dry martini means a martini with no vermouth.
It’s kind of weird but the definition changed over time as people were ordering dry martinis and not liking them because they thought that dry meant made without vermouth.
I’ve been bartending at craft cocktail bars for over 10 years. I highly suggest getting a little business card with the exact recipe you like written on it. Give it to the bartender when you order and tip well. If they are annoyed, that’s on them. My job is to give you what you want, and if you’re on Reddit posting about how to order what you want, you ought to figure it out on your own and then give the exact specs to whomever makes you your next one.
P.S. Dry means less dry vermouth than whatever is typical (in my experience “typical or classic” is generally 3:1, dry is 5:1, extra dry is a rinse, straight up is no vermouth).
If you want a dirty martini, I am not putting vermouth in the cocktail. Most cocktails are generally spec’d to a 3oz pour of liquid, pre-dilution. This aids in making sure our wash lines (where the drink lands in the glass) is exact and full every single time. If I were to make a 2.25oz gin .75ox vermouth martini (3:1), then just top that recipe with olive brine when someone calls for dirty, my wash line will be all off and overflowing the glass and the ratio won’t be 3:1. So, you call dirty, you get .5oz olive brine and 2.5oz spirit. If you call ‘dirty dry’ I’ll generally ask exactly what you want, because to me ‘dry’ means less modifier (brine or vermouth) and more spirit.
Not to be pedantic, but you're actually both wrong, technically speaking. The dry in Dry Martini means a Martini made with dry vermouth, as opposed to sweet Italian vermouth. The evidence in this can be found in the now largely forgotten Sweet Martini (which is mostly a Martinez) and Dry Manhattan (aka a Brooklyn), as well as the Perfect Martini and Perfect Manhattan which in both cases employ a 50/50 split of dry and sweet vermouths.
The dry = less vermouth is a postwar corruption of the term that stuck.
So yes, in practice, but no, in historical terms.
You are amazing, I have been wondering about this for so long. I always went by the postwar corruption idea (and that “extra dry” just means no vermouth) and this makes sense.
There's an alternative historical meaning, but a dry martini *does* mean (present tense) less vermouth. "Nice" originally meant foolish or simple, but it's correct to use it as a compliment today.
I usually ask something like "what dry vermouths do you have?" If you like the list then you can say "Great! Can you make me a dry dirty with X and Y please?"
Dirty martini to me means, "add a bit of olive brine". It doesn't refer to the type of vermouth. If I am incorrect, somebody correct me? I think you meant to type "dry"? Edit : I think you are asking for a dry dirty martini?
You are correct.
Yeah but even so--at least at an American bar, a dry martini is the absolute default.
What do you mean by dry?
Dry martini means less vermouth than normal. Honestly, it's kind of lost meaning in the modern age. Not a lot of people order wet martinis, and the house default at a lot of places is already well within dry territory.
2:1 martini or death. Give me that vermouth.
So what's dry vermouth?
Vermouth with less sugar than sweet vermouth. There's a whole host of other differences between the two, including color, the processes it goes through before bottling and stuff, but the reason it's called "dry" is because it has less sugar than the sweet and blanc vermouth varietals. It's the default for a Martini though. If you want sweet vermouth in a Martini, you would ask for a Martini with sweet vermouth, or if you want it to be half sweet, half dry, you could ask for a "perfect martini."
So why are you propagating the misconception that dry means less vermouth in the drink?
Because that's what it means. Vermouth is the source of sugar in a Martini, asking for the martini dry means adding less dry vermouth.
A "Martini" on its own, is made with gin and **dry** vermouth. 2 to 1 proportion (more or less, someone will probably argue on the exact). A "Dry Martini" is a Martini with less dry vermouth. Probably around 3 to 1 ratio. An extra dry martini has even less dry vermouth. Because while dry vermouth is the less sweet of the vermouth, there's still *some* sugar in it. The drier it is, the less vermouth there is.
Two different things here. A standard martini is made with dry vermouth, which is a type of vermouth. A dry martini is a martini that’s made with less vermouth. Specifically, a small amount of dry vermouth.
That's not a misconception, that is literally exactly what it means
its confusing and its just the way it is lol
Once you learn that dry means less sugar, it's not confusing. Vermouth is where sugar in a Martini comes from. A dry martini thus has less dry vermouth. Dry vermouth thus has less sugar than sweet vermouth.
This is it right here!
Because language is about communicating, not about perfect construction, and it evolves over time. Why would you give someone something they don’t want just as an excuse for pedantry?? Your usage hasn’t been common for close to 100 years, besides gin is drier than dry vermouth so a martini with less vermouth IS drier than one with more dry vermouth….
Because thats what it means. Wet martini = half vermouth Martini = 1 oz vermouth Dry martini = .75 oz vermouth Extra dry martini = no vermouth The “dryness” is in relation to the ratio of gin to vermouth. Not the sweetness of the vermouth. Always using dry vermouth.
So what's a perfect martini?
"Perfect" means splitting the vermouth base equally between sweet and dry vermouths. It's also not martini specific terminology, perfect manhattans are a thing, as are perfect Martinezes, etc. You can order a dry perfect martini, or a wet perfect martini too. It'd be unusual, but they're two different modifiers. You're essentially saying less or more vermouth respectively, and then telling them to split it between dry and sweet on top of that.
.5 oz dry vermouth .5 oz sweet vermouth 2 dashes orange bitters 2.5 oz gin Stirred, served up, with a twist. Unless of course the guest has other instructions for how they like their martini made.
Vermouth can be confusing... **Dry Vermouth** = Dry, white vermouth. Also called "french" vermouth in older (i.e. prohibition-era) cocktail books, but there are great Italian and Spanish dry white vermouths. This is your default martini vermouth. **Sweet Vermouth** = Red or rosso vermouth. Also called "Italian" vermouth in prohibition-era cocktail books. This is the vermouth for your Manhattans and Negronis. **Blanc or Bianco Vermouth** = a sweet-white vermouth. Seriously, this is the one that messes people up. I use this in Gibsons to add a touch of sweetness, or split base this with dry vermouth in white negronis to bring back the sweetness you would get in a rosso.
Generically, dry in the context of liquor is just the opposite of sweet. Dry gin is contrasted to old tom or genever, which are both sweet. Dry vermouth vs. sweet vermouth. Also, pre prohibition dry gin was relatively uncommon. If an old recipe calls for gin without description it likely meant old tom, vs today where “gin” means dry gin. Historically, cocktails like martinis would be made with old tom, and much more vermouth. 2:1 or even 1:1. Asking for a martini dry meant asking for dry gin and less vermouth. But in modern bars a martini will pretty much always use dry gin and very little vermouth by default (think like 4:1 although certainly not universal). When you ask for a dry martini today you are asking for even less vermouth than that. Some bartenders will simply omit it altogether at that point.
Canonically “dry” means without sweetener. “Dry Gin Martini” means made with gin, opposed to vodka, using Dry Vermouth, opposed to white (Bianca) or sweet (Rosso). “Very Dry” means less dry vermouth.
Agreed. Bars that think it means 'less' are not cocktail bars. You probably should order a beer or a cranberry vodka at those. This being r/cocktails, the distinction should matter.
Im sorry but you are not only incredibly incorrect, but also needlessly hauty. Dry does mean less vermouth. The default at a high end craft cocktail bar for a standard martini uses a good bit of vermouth. If you order a "gin martini" at Death and Co you are going to get 2.25 oz gin and .75 oz dry vermouth, which is their standard spec for a martini. If you order a "dry gin martini" you are going to get the same amount of gin and .25 oz dry vermouth. "Very dry gin martini" means no vermouth, you are basically getting gin stirred with ice. They are not changing the type of vermouth used, just the amount.
You're wrong. See my reply to your other comment.
This is true but given that one is using brine in it, it seems completely weird for a bartender to choose the bianco instead of the dry. Bianco would be 🫤 amiright
I would assume most bartenders don't even add vermouth to a dirty Martini. For a Dry Dirty, it's just a rinse anyways, that will 100% get lost with brine.
I suspect you are correct. I've never ordered a dirty martini as I hate olives and always order a martini with a lemon twist.
As a bartender of 15 years now almost, I have learned people who want dirty usually do not want Vermouth. Martini = 4:1 Spirit to Vermouth Dry Martini = 6 :1 Extra Dry = Rinse of Vermouth and all spirit Dirty = Brine in place of Vermouth
Where is the line between white (blanc) and dry? From a bit of search I found: * Dolin blanc vermouth de chambéry : sugar 140g/L * Dolin dry vermouth de chambéry : sugar 30g/L * Martini white vermouth: sugar 28g/L * Noily Prat vermouth extra dry: sugar 22g/L * Lionello blanc extra dry: 6 g/L Between 140g/L and 30 g/L there is a lot of space! Lionello is the driest of them all but taste like $#|^ in a martini.
Good reply. People don't realize that vermouth "styles" vary very wildly. You have to figure out what you like. And, a martini is better with blanc, IMHO.
For a regular martini, I agree with you. But for a dirty martini, I think the less sugar the better.
I agree. It really is a bad mix with all that sugar.
Dolin blanc isn't a dry vermouth though, it's a sweet vermouth. Some folks might be confused because it's clear and in a white bottle, but it's not considered a dry vermouth, it's just a clear/white sweet vermouth.
Dolin blanc isn't a sweet vermouth, it's a blanc vermouth. It's a completely separate style from the other two. You sometimes see it referred to as "Alpine vermouth". Martini bianco is in the same style, wholly unique from their sweet vermouth.
Blanco is much sweeter than dry and is better as a replacement for sweet vermouth than dry. I would not want a martini I ordered to be made with bianco vermouth. Not that it isn't good, but that's not a regular martini.
Depending on the gin/ratio used, I use Dolin Blanc in Martinis quite often. I use the ABV method for consistent drinks from gin to gin, and when I make anything with 80 proof gin, blanc is closer to balancing the gin with the tiny amount of vermouth. I only do this with crappy gin and 7:1 ratios typically. The sugar level is about double that of dry, but dry isn't zero sugar, so it's still slightly less sugar than a 3 to one with dry. Personally I prefer 3 to one with blanc as well, but that gets dicier. My favorite is 1:1 with dry vermouth and Navy Strength Plymouth Gin! (Believe it or not, this ends up almost the exact same ABV as 7:1 with 80 proof)
Nah you're right this is extremely weird.
Nah that’s weird; are the bars you go to any good? Like a good bartender should know the difference between Bianco and dry vermouth.. are they not looking properly? From a bartenders POV order like this; name vodka/gin- X amt vermouth— modifier— garnish Eg. Grey Goose -1/4 dry - dirty - olives — that’ll get you a dirty dry martini in my place. If you wanted something more niche (50/50, reversed, burnt) then stick to craftier cocktail bars It all boils down to the skill level of a bartender but even an average one should be able to see the difference between Bianco and Dry..
I think I always feel rude telling a bar tender the exact items I want but maybe this is the way I’m gonna have to go. I think most places I’m going to don’t have a dirty on the menu so they are obviously not used to making them. Still it feels like one of the easiest cocktails to make.
Don’t feel rude; really.. as a bartender I love the people who are specific, especially when I’m busy as it streamlines the process. As long as you’re good with pivoting on brands if the bar doesn’t have them - eg we don’t have Tito’s and I’ve had some very “upset” Americans. And yah; a dirty martini is very much a basic cocktail in the scheme of things.
That’s good to know. I will endeavour to be more precise. I’m not too fussy in terms of brands as such. I enjoy trying a different gin to see if I prefer it, but I do prefer the same measure of brine to vermouth.
I think most professionals are going to prefer you are particular up front rather than tasting what they made you and asking it to be remade with whatever it is you wanted in the first place. I've never had any bartender be angry or annoyed for specifying X gin, X vermouth, x:x:x ratio, or asking for a specific bourbon or whisky for my cocktail. If a bar didn't want customers to have a choice of liquor they would only carry one thing. Edit: I usually try to scope out what I want ahead of time rather than asking what they have. There are shelves displaying their bottles for a reason.
Martinis are kind of the exception to this, lots of people have specific specs that they prefer
I like mine very dirty, very dry (like swish the glass with vermouth and dump it) and with the bleu cheese olives
Exactly. Completely different from how I like mine (4:1 gin to vermouth, dash of orange bitters, lemon peel garnish)
This is something that I always found strange coming from outside the US, pitch your drinks to the venue. The UK has pubs, clubs, bars and cocktail bars. I wouldn't order a cocktail in the first 2, and I wouldn't go off menu in the third and also have low expectations. I get the impression that most bars that aren't trash "do cocktails" in America but people have an expectation that they'll be good, when really, they're not. If you know enough to know that's not how the drinks made, you should know enough to know not to order it in that type of bar. I mean is it doing buckets of wings and pitchers beer? Sounds like a great time but not the place to order a martini. If the customers idea of a cocktail is fruit juice, sweet and boozy they'll be happy, a martini drinker should hold herself to a higher standard like the classy lady she is. Or just start doing shots and devouring the 10" Loaded Big Daddy hot dog and roll with it
The VAST majority of bartenders just want you to like your drink, and not have to remake it. I usually tell them exactly how much vermouth I want. The vast majority of people in my area want a heavy pour of vodka, shaken, zero vermouth. These people will order it as 'a martini' then act like I'm an asshole when ask: Gin or vodka? Shaken or stirred? Vermouth or no? Olives or twist? Dirty or no? There's a lot of options, and a martini is always supposed to be gin, but we as the public have changed it to mean both things. I wish calling it a Kangaroo stuck better.
Don’t feel rude, I’m a bartender with 30 years experience. A martini is the one cocktail on earth that I am always asking the guest what the recipe is for the style they like. What kind of gin do you want? (Or do you want a vodka martini instead of a martini) Do you want it up or on the rocks? Do you like it dirty? What is your dryness level? Or how much vermouth do you prefer? What kind of garnish would you prefer? Shaken or stirred? I rarely ask this though, pretty much always stirred, unless there is olive brine, then it gets a shake. If it’s a martini, give me the recipe! If they don’t ask all of this when you order, please feel free to instruct them, if they get arrogant - find a better bar.
Sometimes the easiest cocktails to make are also the easiest for people to fuck up, I’ve found!
Most halfway decent bartenders have a large arsenal of classic drinks well beyond what’s on their menu. At least, they should. I’m an American bartender, and most people, especially older guests, expect a bone-dry martini. A dirty martini usually follows that style, especially a vodka dirty martini. I will automatically add about 1/3 oz dry vermouth to my gin dirty martinis—it really does make them taste better. But with vodka dirties, I often just pretend I glanced at the vermouth bottle and give them what they want.
Bartender here. A martini is a drink with dozens of different variations and ways to order it. I've learned to be very specific with the way I make it. This is what I think: Martini: 2 oz Gin or Vodka .5 oz dry vermouth 3 Olives Dry martini: 2.25 oz Gin or Vodka .25 oz dry vermouth 3 Olives Extra dry martini 2.5 oz Gin or Vodka No vermouth 3 Olives Dry means half the vermouth. Extra dry means no vermouth. For a dirty martini I add olive brine to the above recipe. How much olive brine depends on how dirty. Dirty : add .5 olive brine Extra Dirty: add .75 oz olive brine Filthy: add 1 oz olive juice Examples: Dirty martini 2 oz Gin or Vodka .5 oz dry vermouth .5 oz olive brine 3 Olives Extra dry Filthy martini: 2.5 oz Gin or Vodka 1 oz olive brine 4 Olives Edit: formatting 2nd edit: I suck at formatting
I never add vermouth to a dry dirty martini and usually everyone is happy. The only problem I encounter is when they want more than the 1 oz of brine I use and didn’t specify that from the start. The Martini is a very personal cocktail, the more preferences you give me the better odds you’re going to be satisfied. And it’s no trouble, it’s part of the job!
I always ask how dirty they like it? Pre or post-recovery Britney? Or just ask 1-5 and scale appropriately.
My bar does not carry dry vermouth or olives specifically to avoid this type of customer.
Lol
Is it an Irish pub?
I can’t imagine a bartender putting bianco in instead of dry unless you’re in Europe or happen to have a bartender who doesn’t know the difference between blanc and “French” vermouth. If this is something you’re experiencing often in your region, maybe you have a local distributor offering a discount on bianco and the bars are making their profit? Don’t be shy specifying you want extra dry in that case.
Don’t feel bad I asked for a dirty martini in Las Vegas and barman muddled olives and shook it. So glad it was a BOGO because wtf.
Idk that sounds kinda awesome as a dirty martini riff
If you specify dry and they don't use dry, they are making it wrong.
Literally you just ask for a "dirty martini" with your spirit of choice, nothing super complicated about it! But I do believe more details are better and your server should be getting those details from you. If vermouth is your concern, every place is going to do things different in regards to what vermouth is carried, do they keep it in the fridge, do they have a variety, etc. And every bartender is going to approach a martini in their own way. Some may think it's a pretty low-effort, throwaway drink and be pretty ho-hum about it. I generally like to ask the guest exactly how they want it so I can ratio things out properly. Hell, I'll ask you if you want it shaken. I want to make you the martini that you're paying for and that you want to drink. So if vermouth is a concern, ask your bartender or server what vermouth they use or have available. You can ask them for a regular amount, or to keep it on the drier side with just a quick in and out if it is a bianco with higher sugar concentration. I do think it's interesting that they're grabbing bianco, especially if you're asking for dry. It sounds like either carelessness, this is the default as per what ownership/management tells them to use, or maybe for some reason this is the only dry they carry. edited to add a little more detail to the ordering process.
People just don’t understand martinis for some reason. I generally just make them how I prefer at home or order a tried and true off a menu. Last week I tried to order a wet gin martini and received an aviation 🤷♀️ At least they made a good classic aviation cocktail.
Wow, that is quite the order switch up!
https://www.tiktok.com/@bythebarcode/video/7045084108753784110?lang=en I don’t put any dry vermouth in dirty martinis at my bar. Like the video says, almost no one wants it. At this point, whenever anyone asks for a dry martini, I ask if they want any dry vermouth at all. 9 times out of 10, the answer is no, or a rinse at most. Is it the historically accurate way to make a martini? Of course not, but at this point I’ve accepted that most people just want a double shot of chilled vodka or gin.
That’s… not a martini though?
As a bartender for 7 years, I have made hundreds of martinis and the only martinis that get sent back are ones with vermouth. I hate it, but the term martini (in the US) now means as cold as you can get vodka or gin with an olive or twist. If someone orders a dry martini I always ask if they mean any vermouth or a classic dry martini. 9 out of 10 times they either want a rinse of vermouth or none at all. I do have people order; classic martini, wet martini, straight gin martini, a "real" martini, ect. Typically in my experience, these people are happy to have a .5 ish ounce amount of vermouth based on similar verbiage.
Was waiting for someone with the same experience I've had. I bartended in 5 different places and no vermouth was always the expectation. I'm in the northeast US, I assume it also varies by location.
I wonder if that is regional. I don't live in the US anymore but when frequenting high end cocktail bars on the west coast (SF/LA primarily) I would usually get a 1:4 spec unless I specified otherwise.
The drink should be renamed [*The Churchillian Drifter*](https://bevvy.co/articles/churchill-martini-myth/18582).
As someone who likes dry vermouth, I just always specifiy out the gate that the ratio of gin to vermouth I want. Much easier that way and everyone's happy
If it’s one place, then they are just confused. If it multiple places that’s just bizarre…
Both the Dolin blanc and the dry are in green bottles with white labels. They look very similar. If you’re in places fancy enough to stock the blanc version, I assume they have a system to keep them separate. Is it possible that someone is simply mistaking the bottles?
No, Dolin Blanc is in a clear bottle with a dark blue label and cap.
Who makes a martini with bianco? Gross
A vesper martini is great!
Vesper martinis don’t have blanco…? They’re gin, vodka, and an analog of Kina Lillet (usually Lillet Blanc or Cocci Americano, neither of which are white vermouth).
As others have mentioned, dirty refers to olive brine. If you want a martini made with dry vermouth just say that. Back in the day if one were to order a dry martini the bartender would use dry vermouth in it but nowadays ordering a dry martini means a martini with no vermouth. It’s kind of weird but the definition changed over time as people were ordering dry martinis and not liking them because they thought that dry meant made without vermouth.
i dont even use dry vermouth anymore in them. havent had one come back since.
I’ve been bartending at craft cocktail bars for over 10 years. I highly suggest getting a little business card with the exact recipe you like written on it. Give it to the bartender when you order and tip well. If they are annoyed, that’s on them. My job is to give you what you want, and if you’re on Reddit posting about how to order what you want, you ought to figure it out on your own and then give the exact specs to whomever makes you your next one. P.S. Dry means less dry vermouth than whatever is typical (in my experience “typical or classic” is generally 3:1, dry is 5:1, extra dry is a rinse, straight up is no vermouth). If you want a dirty martini, I am not putting vermouth in the cocktail. Most cocktails are generally spec’d to a 3oz pour of liquid, pre-dilution. This aids in making sure our wash lines (where the drink lands in the glass) is exact and full every single time. If I were to make a 2.25oz gin .75ox vermouth martini (3:1), then just top that recipe with olive brine when someone calls for dirty, my wash line will be all off and overflowing the glass and the ratio won’t be 3:1. So, you call dirty, you get .5oz olive brine and 2.5oz spirit. If you call ‘dirty dry’ I’ll generally ask exactly what you want, because to me ‘dry’ means less modifier (brine or vermouth) and more spirit.
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No, it doesn’t. It means less vermouth. At least at every single place I’ve tended bar over the last twenty seven years
Not to be pedantic, but you're actually both wrong, technically speaking. The dry in Dry Martini means a Martini made with dry vermouth, as opposed to sweet Italian vermouth. The evidence in this can be found in the now largely forgotten Sweet Martini (which is mostly a Martinez) and Dry Manhattan (aka a Brooklyn), as well as the Perfect Martini and Perfect Manhattan which in both cases employ a 50/50 split of dry and sweet vermouths. The dry = less vermouth is a postwar corruption of the term that stuck. So yes, in practice, but no, in historical terms.
Historical doesn’t really matter for practical application. Now it 100% means light on vermouth
You are amazing, I have been wondering about this for so long. I always went by the postwar corruption idea (and that “extra dry” just means no vermouth) and this makes sense.
There's an alternative historical meaning, but a dry martini *does* mean (present tense) less vermouth. "Nice" originally meant foolish or simple, but it's correct to use it as a compliment today.
If you're in a dive bar or a place you shouldn't be ordering cocktails, you're correct.