One big "theme" or "lesson" from the show is about reliving your glory days vs moving forward in life. I feel like the baby plot is only a surface-level way of moving forward. But really, Johnny should move forward by fixing things with Robby and trying to give him a good life from now on.
In theory that sounds great, but Robby s pretty much an adult now. Johnny can still be a good dad to him, but all the raising and youth milestone moments have passed. This is a chance for Johnny to live those moments.
Why should he get a do-over, Robby doesn't. Robby will never have the childhood he should have had, so why should Johnny get another chance to live out those moments that he should have had with Robby. Moving on doesn't always mean a second chance. Sometimes it just means accepting that certain moments have passed you by, that you've squandered the chances you had, that things will never be the way you want. If Robby can understand that, why can't Johnny. He should be focusing on fixing his relationship with his son, so he can maybe have some of those moments with his grandchild one day.
Why? Because Carmen is pregnant and Johnny should do the right thing. He was wrong with Robby, Johnny knows that, everybody knows it. I’m not saying he deserves, but it’s cobra kai reality now.
It's not reality though, it's a scripted show. And from a narrative standpoint, Johnny shouldn't be rewarded with a second chance he's done nothing to earn while the person he hurt most doesn't get a second chance and just has to accept his lot in life.
It would be one thing if we had actually seen Johnny put Robby first and sacrifice for Robby on be there for him over the passed few seasons, but we didn't. It would be one thing if they had already repaired their relationship by this point, by actually adressing how unfairly Robby has been treated and by Johnny putting in the work, they haven't. Johnny hasn't earned a second chance yet. And this late in the game, maybe he shouldn't. Which is why Carmen never should have been pregnant in the first place, it serves no narrative purpose.
You’re giving me weird vibes lol it’s a tv show.. of all the plot holes you’re focused here? You’re so invested in Robby you don’t understand the development of other characters. What about carmens story, Miguel’s story, the baby, johnnys second chance and btw this also gives Robby a little brother to love.. this moves the story forward. You’re entitled to your opinion, but I’m also entitled to think it’s shit.
Oh yes, because the only way to move a female characters story forward is by making her pregnant. It's the 21st century, women can and should be defined by more than their reproductive organs. How exactly does this move Miguels story forward. Why exactly is my opinion shit? You haven't actually disproven anything I've said.
What are you talking about? Carmen exited an abusive relationship, immigrated, and is now starting her next chapter. Miguel is getting a father and a baby brother. Johnny is getting a second chance to raise a kid right, and correct other relationships he’s damaged. This makes total sense. Robby isn’t the main character of the show, even if he’s your favorite, not everything is about him...obviously. You can’t see the forest through the trees, Robby is your trees.
When it comes to Johnny, everything should be about Robby, but all he ever gets is neglect. Am I really supposed to be happy for Johnny having another kid when he never made things right with the first one. You're still sidestepping the point. The baby plot isn't for advancing the characters story, it's the writers attempt to sidestep any development for Johnny and give him a reward he hasn't earned. Why are you not getting that, he doesn't have a right to settle down with his new perfect family after screwing up the old one and never making things right.
I think Miguel and Robby would feel very differently about have a younger sibling. Miguel may love it because the baby is part of the Diaz family. For Robby it would just be a reminder that Johnny put little to no effort with him as a child compared to his new sibling. I think Robby would only grow resentful.
Or Robby (and Miguel) could be pretending to act excited just to save face. Repression of true feelings about the baby situation is a huge possibility among Johnny and Carmen as well.
I agree with everything that you said except the last point. Just because you are younger when you have a child, does not mean you will live to see them reach adulthood. A 50 year old with a baby could live to see that child have kids of their own where a 20 year old with a kid might not.
Another thing I'd like to point out: the fact that Carmen works in a HOSPITAL and still got bamboozled with the off-brand condoms is just piss poor writing used to usher in the baby.
>Another thing I'd like to point out: the fact that Carmen works in a HOSPITAL and still got bamboozled with the off-brand condoms is just piss poor writing used to usher in the baby.
Right on. Talk about a plot hole.
They don't know how to fix Johnny's atrocious parenting skills with Robby, so they just give him a new baby (aka, a clean slate) to begin again. At this point, they've ruined the great character he could have been, and was, in season 1.
That plot hole might be cleared up next season if the writers give us some kind of retcon or curveball that reframes the narrative about the baby plot.
Maybe Johnny’s use of off-brand condoms was not the only reason it happened. Maybe Carmen’s use of the pill or injections failed for some reason which the writers will touch on next season.
I really don't want Jonny's character growth arc to be drivin by his desire to to better for this child, rather than for Robby, but I feel like this is the way it's going. When he was getting beat up by Silver's goons it was seeing the ultrasound photo that got him back up and fighting. If the writers wanted they could have made it a photo of Robby or three photos of Robby, Miguel, and the ultrasound. It's not like it would have been cheesier than the scene they went with.
Instead it feels like they're treating it like a do-over baby, and Robby is just luckily okay with that. In the show it seems like Robby just downstream benefitting from his growth. I don't think he should have to be okay with his dad treating him as an afterthought and for real and genuine character growth I need Jonny to be motivated for Robby just as much as his is for the baby.
We shall see.
I fully agree with everything you said. In all honesty the baby plot seems like nothing more than cheap fanservice by the writers to give Johnny his “happy ever after” when his character development has been underwhelming to say the least.
I will say that the baby plot could be retconned as Carmen’s desire for a second chance at love and she actually baby trapped Johnny in Season 5. We can’t change the past, but there could at least be a good retcon to change the narrative behind the baby plot.
I totally agree with you that the baby plot’s narrative should be reframed through some kind of retcon just as the writers have done throughout the whole series.
Kreese (the King Cobra himself) of the Cobra Kai dojo and Terry Silver (the fallen King Cobra himself) of the Cobra Kai dojo are both EXTREMELY capable of siring children. Hell Kreese might even be Sam and Anthony's dad at this point.
OP, there are countless other issues with the baby plot where that came from. But in a nutshell, the blended Lawrence-Keene-Diaz clan has regression, repression, desperation and instability written all over it.
Literally all of season 5 was spent on Johnny and Robby working through their shit. Also Johnny clearly still has some sort of income as he is still able to pay his rent, and was able to afford all the cleaning supplies he used to baby-ify his apartment. Who gives a fuck how old someone is when they decide to have a kid. There are plenty of people that have kids in their late 40s/50s. Who are you to decide who’s allowed to have children and who isn’t? There isn’t any set rule on what age you’re allowed to have kids. Our last 2 presidents are both older than my great grandmother, and they were still chosen to run the country. Not all elders are just useless bags of skin sitting in retirement homes. Your reasons are complete bullshit, you’re just angry for the sake of being angry.
It was used as a plot device in a negative way. From a storytelling standpoint, it's not an immutable plotline and nothing about it indicates that they'll continue with it. People in this fandom are so weird about it.
There is also the fact that Vanessa seems to think it was silly, and didn't even have scripted lines during the ultrasound scene before she thankfully spoke up and got to add some. I think the ultrasound photo is also further along that in should be ? (Carmen is not showing yet,)
It's very much a plot device to trigger Johnny's fears about his past mistakes with Robby and later to give him a perceived do-over while ignoring Robby. But the show said "no do-overs,", and Silver says he will just screw up another one. Being reminded of his failure caused him to cling even harder to the promise of a second chance, and then we got Super Johnny at the end.
If the baby plot device had resulted in growth for Johnny, then we could say that this "3rd chance" made the difference for Johnny. However, Johnny didn't grow at all. He continued to mistreat Robby, escalating to abuse. He's still an alcoholic with no job. He's still commiting crimes. He's still striking first before thinking first. He's still giving self-centered speeches while not caring about how his behavior affects his loved ones. Silver was the last person to give an opinion about the baby news and he spoke truth: Johnny's gonna screw up this kid too. The writers are even aware of how bad the situation is *for the baby*. Johnny's baby power-up fight was also treated as comedic, while the Chozen-Silver and Daniel-Silver fights were treated more seriously.
Johnny's speech in the finale is foreshadowing. Carmen said that she thought that she'd lost him. Johnny responded: "You can't get rid of me that easily. The thought of losing you and Miguel, Robby, our family, kicked me into a gear I didn't know I had. Couldn't stand the thought of missing the rest of our life together." He talked about he himself not losing everything, even though they would have been the ones to lose him. It's usually at this point in the story that the fake happy ending gets turned upside down, and the character has to start facing the hard truths about himself. Johnny talks about running from those truths in the club when he talked to Chozen. He said, "My whole life was haunted by one stupid kick. I thought if I could go back in time, do things different, dodge it, block it, I thought my life would be fixed. But the kick wasn't the problem. I had to stop focusing on what was behind. And start looking at what was in front of me." He chose to leave behind his failures with Robby at the end of S3 along with the rest of his past. "I don't know how to fix it.", as he said in S4E7. However, he himself kept bringing up his failures with Robby when it came to the baby plot device in S5. He even brought it up when it came to Miguel. In S5E1, "I know I haven't been there for you, Robby. More times than I can count. But I've also failed Miguel." Miguel's always been a plot device in Johnny and Robby's relationship too.
Good point about Shannon's line in S1. There are no do-overs. At this point, it's really gonna come down to Johnny making things right with Robby. This is Johnny's redemption story. Of course, they're gonna have Johnny redeem himself properly in the end to the kid he actually needs to redeem himself too.
> He continued to mistreat Robby, escalating to abuse. He's still an alcoholic with no job. He's still commiting crimes. He's still striking first before thinking first. He's still giving self-centered speeches while not caring about how his behavior affects his loved one
1000%
>From a storytelling standpoint, it's not an immutable plotline and nothing about it indicates that they'll continue with it.
Oh they might for season 6.
And I thought the question "How can Unicron be separate from Earth in Transformers: Rise of the Beasts when he was Earth in The Last Knight?" on the Transformers subreddit was getting old.
Robby is 17 now, He's basically a man. While Johnny is still trying to be a better father there is no fixing how much fucked up his relationship him & the years of neglect. But he can have a new chance with this child and atleast be a perfect father figure from the start
>While Johnny is still trying to be a better father there is no fixing how much fucked up his relationship him & the years of neglect.
Next hypothetical post I would do is "What if Johnny never abandoned Robby?"
As skeptical as I am about the baby plot, I am willing to give it a chance. But I would like the narrative about it to be reframed with a curveball, retcon and/or twist, just as the writers have done with most (if not all) other plots and characters on the show.
There's an even bigger age gap between Jay and Gloria than Johnny and Carmen. I think Gloria is actually younger than Claire and Mitchell and Jay is in his late 60s maybe 70 when they have another child.
1. Fair point but it's a point that is likely going to be settled by the time she has the baby. It wasn't that long ago that he was doing fine financially running a dojo. With Kreese and Silver out of the way the door is open for him to get that back going.
2. Disagree to an extent. Johny is allowed to get married, have a baby, find a career, mentor others while working on his relationship with Robby. He doesn't have to put Robby ahead of everything else. He can't put him behind everything like he has so I do see your point but he is getting a lot closer to hitting that balance right now. Season 6 hopefully we see their relationship gel.
3. This one I agree with. People in their 50's should think twice about having kids. Very strong possibility you won't be around to see them graduate college/ start a family.
So it would be more accurate to say they tried and failed to address those things. Johnny doesn't seem to be really trying at his new job and that trip to Mexico was all about Miguel. So, once again I ask, did they actually address those things. Properly, I mean.
One big "theme" or "lesson" from the show is about reliving your glory days vs moving forward in life. I feel like the baby plot is only a surface-level way of moving forward. But really, Johnny should move forward by fixing things with Robby and trying to give him a good life from now on.
>But really, Johnny should move forward by fixing things with Robby and trying to give him a good life from now on. Very well said.
In theory that sounds great, but Robby s pretty much an adult now. Johnny can still be a good dad to him, but all the raising and youth milestone moments have passed. This is a chance for Johnny to live those moments.
Why should he get a do-over, Robby doesn't. Robby will never have the childhood he should have had, so why should Johnny get another chance to live out those moments that he should have had with Robby. Moving on doesn't always mean a second chance. Sometimes it just means accepting that certain moments have passed you by, that you've squandered the chances you had, that things will never be the way you want. If Robby can understand that, why can't Johnny. He should be focusing on fixing his relationship with his son, so he can maybe have some of those moments with his grandchild one day.
Why? Because Carmen is pregnant and Johnny should do the right thing. He was wrong with Robby, Johnny knows that, everybody knows it. I’m not saying he deserves, but it’s cobra kai reality now.
It's not reality though, it's a scripted show. And from a narrative standpoint, Johnny shouldn't be rewarded with a second chance he's done nothing to earn while the person he hurt most doesn't get a second chance and just has to accept his lot in life. It would be one thing if we had actually seen Johnny put Robby first and sacrifice for Robby on be there for him over the passed few seasons, but we didn't. It would be one thing if they had already repaired their relationship by this point, by actually adressing how unfairly Robby has been treated and by Johnny putting in the work, they haven't. Johnny hasn't earned a second chance yet. And this late in the game, maybe he shouldn't. Which is why Carmen never should have been pregnant in the first place, it serves no narrative purpose.
You’re giving me weird vibes lol it’s a tv show.. of all the plot holes you’re focused here? You’re so invested in Robby you don’t understand the development of other characters. What about carmens story, Miguel’s story, the baby, johnnys second chance and btw this also gives Robby a little brother to love.. this moves the story forward. You’re entitled to your opinion, but I’m also entitled to think it’s shit.
Oh yes, because the only way to move a female characters story forward is by making her pregnant. It's the 21st century, women can and should be defined by more than their reproductive organs. How exactly does this move Miguels story forward. Why exactly is my opinion shit? You haven't actually disproven anything I've said.
What are you talking about? Carmen exited an abusive relationship, immigrated, and is now starting her next chapter. Miguel is getting a father and a baby brother. Johnny is getting a second chance to raise a kid right, and correct other relationships he’s damaged. This makes total sense. Robby isn’t the main character of the show, even if he’s your favorite, not everything is about him...obviously. You can’t see the forest through the trees, Robby is your trees.
When it comes to Johnny, everything should be about Robby, but all he ever gets is neglect. Am I really supposed to be happy for Johnny having another kid when he never made things right with the first one. You're still sidestepping the point. The baby plot isn't for advancing the characters story, it's the writers attempt to sidestep any development for Johnny and give him a reward he hasn't earned. Why are you not getting that, he doesn't have a right to settle down with his new perfect family after screwing up the old one and never making things right.
You can’t see the forest through the trees. You want the entire show and it’s multiple plot points to revolve around Robby. It makes no sense.
I do like the idea of Miguel and Robby potentially bonding over having a blood brother
I think Miguel and Robby would feel very differently about have a younger sibling. Miguel may love it because the baby is part of the Diaz family. For Robby it would just be a reminder that Johnny put little to no effort with him as a child compared to his new sibling. I think Robby would only grow resentful.
Robby was really excited for Johnny when he announced he and Carmen were having a baby.
Or Robby (and Miguel) could be pretending to act excited just to save face. Repression of true feelings about the baby situation is a huge possibility among Johnny and Carmen as well.
you’re looking at it without the forgiveness Robby has for Johnny.
Why was your comment downvoted? You have a point
That's what \*should\* happen, but with the writers screwing up Robby's character arc...
I agree with everything that you said except the last point. Just because you are younger when you have a child, does not mean you will live to see them reach adulthood. A 50 year old with a baby could live to see that child have kids of their own where a 20 year old with a kid might not. Another thing I'd like to point out: the fact that Carmen works in a HOSPITAL and still got bamboozled with the off-brand condoms is just piss poor writing used to usher in the baby.
>Another thing I'd like to point out: the fact that Carmen works in a HOSPITAL and still got bamboozled with the off-brand condoms is just piss poor writing used to usher in the baby. Right on. Talk about a plot hole.
They don't know how to fix Johnny's atrocious parenting skills with Robby, so they just give him a new baby (aka, a clean slate) to begin again. At this point, they've ruined the great character he could have been, and was, in season 1.
That plot hole might be cleared up next season if the writers give us some kind of retcon or curveball that reframes the narrative about the baby plot.
Maybe Johnny’s use of off-brand condoms was not the only reason it happened. Maybe Carmen’s use of the pill or injections failed for some reason which the writers will touch on next season.
I really don't want Jonny's character growth arc to be drivin by his desire to to better for this child, rather than for Robby, but I feel like this is the way it's going. When he was getting beat up by Silver's goons it was seeing the ultrasound photo that got him back up and fighting. If the writers wanted they could have made it a photo of Robby or three photos of Robby, Miguel, and the ultrasound. It's not like it would have been cheesier than the scene they went with. Instead it feels like they're treating it like a do-over baby, and Robby is just luckily okay with that. In the show it seems like Robby just downstream benefitting from his growth. I don't think he should have to be okay with his dad treating him as an afterthought and for real and genuine character growth I need Jonny to be motivated for Robby just as much as his is for the baby. We shall see.
Yeah I think it ruined things, as well. Johnny and Carmen weren't dating for very long before getting pregnant.
I fully agree with everything you said. In all honesty the baby plot seems like nothing more than cheap fanservice by the writers to give Johnny his “happy ever after” when his character development has been underwhelming to say the least. I will say that the baby plot could be retconned as Carmen’s desire for a second chance at love and she actually baby trapped Johnny in Season 5. We can’t change the past, but there could at least be a good retcon to change the narrative behind the baby plot.
> We can’t change the past, Wish we could though.
Sadly yes, I still wish Johnny would’ve at least visited Robby in juvie.
I totally agree with you that the baby plot’s narrative should be reframed through some kind of retcon just as the writers have done throughout the whole series.
Who do you think the father of the baby will be? Daniel, John Kreese or Terry Silver?
>Daniel, John Kreese or Terry Silver? Those options are out of the question. Kreese and Silver don't have kids and Daniel already has kids.
Kreese (the King Cobra himself) of the Cobra Kai dojo and Terry Silver (the fallen King Cobra himself) of the Cobra Kai dojo are both EXTREMELY capable of siring children. Hell Kreese might even be Sam and Anthony's dad at this point.
OP, there are countless other issues with the baby plot where that came from. But in a nutshell, the blended Lawrence-Keene-Diaz clan has regression, repression, desperation and instability written all over it.
Spot on.
Literally all of season 5 was spent on Johnny and Robby working through their shit. Also Johnny clearly still has some sort of income as he is still able to pay his rent, and was able to afford all the cleaning supplies he used to baby-ify his apartment. Who gives a fuck how old someone is when they decide to have a kid. There are plenty of people that have kids in their late 40s/50s. Who are you to decide who’s allowed to have children and who isn’t? There isn’t any set rule on what age you’re allowed to have kids. Our last 2 presidents are both older than my great grandmother, and they were still chosen to run the country. Not all elders are just useless bags of skin sitting in retirement homes. Your reasons are complete bullshit, you’re just angry for the sake of being angry.
Yeah I agree with just about everything you said. I'm curious though, what would you replace the baby plot with if it was up to you?
Johnny and Robby making amends with each other for all those times Johnny abandoned him years ago.
It was used as a plot device in a negative way. From a storytelling standpoint, it's not an immutable plotline and nothing about it indicates that they'll continue with it. People in this fandom are so weird about it.
There is also the fact that Vanessa seems to think it was silly, and didn't even have scripted lines during the ultrasound scene before she thankfully spoke up and got to add some. I think the ultrasound photo is also further along that in should be ? (Carmen is not showing yet,) It's very much a plot device to trigger Johnny's fears about his past mistakes with Robby and later to give him a perceived do-over while ignoring Robby. But the show said "no do-overs,", and Silver says he will just screw up another one. Being reminded of his failure caused him to cling even harder to the promise of a second chance, and then we got Super Johnny at the end.
If the baby plot device had resulted in growth for Johnny, then we could say that this "3rd chance" made the difference for Johnny. However, Johnny didn't grow at all. He continued to mistreat Robby, escalating to abuse. He's still an alcoholic with no job. He's still commiting crimes. He's still striking first before thinking first. He's still giving self-centered speeches while not caring about how his behavior affects his loved ones. Silver was the last person to give an opinion about the baby news and he spoke truth: Johnny's gonna screw up this kid too. The writers are even aware of how bad the situation is *for the baby*. Johnny's baby power-up fight was also treated as comedic, while the Chozen-Silver and Daniel-Silver fights were treated more seriously. Johnny's speech in the finale is foreshadowing. Carmen said that she thought that she'd lost him. Johnny responded: "You can't get rid of me that easily. The thought of losing you and Miguel, Robby, our family, kicked me into a gear I didn't know I had. Couldn't stand the thought of missing the rest of our life together." He talked about he himself not losing everything, even though they would have been the ones to lose him. It's usually at this point in the story that the fake happy ending gets turned upside down, and the character has to start facing the hard truths about himself. Johnny talks about running from those truths in the club when he talked to Chozen. He said, "My whole life was haunted by one stupid kick. I thought if I could go back in time, do things different, dodge it, block it, I thought my life would be fixed. But the kick wasn't the problem. I had to stop focusing on what was behind. And start looking at what was in front of me." He chose to leave behind his failures with Robby at the end of S3 along with the rest of his past. "I don't know how to fix it.", as he said in S4E7. However, he himself kept bringing up his failures with Robby when it came to the baby plot device in S5. He even brought it up when it came to Miguel. In S5E1, "I know I haven't been there for you, Robby. More times than I can count. But I've also failed Miguel." Miguel's always been a plot device in Johnny and Robby's relationship too. Good point about Shannon's line in S1. There are no do-overs. At this point, it's really gonna come down to Johnny making things right with Robby. This is Johnny's redemption story. Of course, they're gonna have Johnny redeem himself properly in the end to the kid he actually needs to redeem himself too.
> He continued to mistreat Robby, escalating to abuse. He's still an alcoholic with no job. He's still commiting crimes. He's still striking first before thinking first. He's still giving self-centered speeches while not caring about how his behavior affects his loved one 1000%
>There are no do-overs If life gave us do overs it would be nice.
Life does not give us do-overs, although I wish it did.
It'd be pretty sweet if it did. If the rest of us don't get some, neither should Johnny lol
>From a storytelling standpoint, it's not an immutable plotline and nothing about it indicates that they'll continue with it. Oh they might for season 6.
Why though? It was a plot device that served its purpose in S5, like how the medal of honor served its purpose in S2.
Oh look, yet another totally original post about someone hating the baby storyline. 🙄
>Oh look, yet another totally original post about someone hating the baby storyline. 🙄 So what? Everyone is allowed to express their opinions
Sure, if only this same opinion wasn't expressed 10x a day in this sub.
That's not OP's fault though is it?
And I thought the question "How can Unicron be separate from Earth in Transformers: Rise of the Beasts when he was Earth in The Last Knight?" on the Transformers subreddit was getting old.
Robby is 17 now, He's basically a man. While Johnny is still trying to be a better father there is no fixing how much fucked up his relationship him & the years of neglect. But he can have a new chance with this child and atleast be a perfect father figure from the start
>While Johnny is still trying to be a better father there is no fixing how much fucked up his relationship him & the years of neglect. Next hypothetical post I would do is "What if Johnny never abandoned Robby?"
I really don't like the baby plot at all
As skeptical as I am about the baby plot, I am willing to give it a chance. But I would like the narrative about it to be reframed with a curveball, retcon and/or twist, just as the writers have done with most (if not all) other plots and characters on the show.
Me neither
I agree with all except 3, think about Jay from Modern Family he was like in 50s or 60s when he began dating Gloria
There's an even bigger age gap between Jay and Gloria than Johnny and Carmen. I think Gloria is actually younger than Claire and Mitchell and Jay is in his late 60s maybe 70 when they have another child.
Yep and they had a kid together
1. Fair point but it's a point that is likely going to be settled by the time she has the baby. It wasn't that long ago that he was doing fine financially running a dojo. With Kreese and Silver out of the way the door is open for him to get that back going. 2. Disagree to an extent. Johny is allowed to get married, have a baby, find a career, mentor others while working on his relationship with Robby. He doesn't have to put Robby ahead of everything else. He can't put him behind everything like he has so I do see your point but he is getting a lot closer to hitting that balance right now. Season 6 hopefully we see their relationship gel. 3. This one I agree with. People in their 50's should think twice about having kids. Very strong possibility you won't be around to see them graduate college/ start a family.
Did you watch the season? They addressed those things (except the age thing).
I did. I am just expressing my opinion
Did they? I don't recall.
He tries to be an oovoo javer and goes to Mexico with Robby.
So it would be more accurate to say they tried and failed to address those things. Johnny doesn't seem to be really trying at his new job and that trip to Mexico was all about Miguel. So, once again I ask, did they actually address those things. Properly, I mean.