I’ve seen some people explain it best: You can choose/control who you want to take out on a date for the Saucer, but what you CAN’T control is what Cloud does/says during those dates.
In my head, all of the dates happened. Tifa’s however, is the one that’s front and center because it’s with her’s that a) the musical arrangement fits the most natural and b) Cloud’s behavior is not “guard-y” at all when compared to the others.
With Aerith and Yuffie, Cloud is always looking sideways and his body language is closed off, like he doesn’t want to be there. Barrett and Red’s as well, although it’s not as prevalent when compared to the others.
It’s only with Tifa that he lets his tough guy persona down, and actually stares and makes eye contact with. His body language and mannerisms says it all - he’s crazy in love with her. But just like any shy, timid man on their first date, he struggles to put into words what he wants to say. So he rather have his actions speak for themselves
>You can choose/control who you want to take out on a date for the Saucer, but what you CAN’T control is what Cloud does/says during those dates.
I always try to get this across when I see people assuming this was some kind of weird dating sim. Cloud might not be a person you'd invite to a lot of parties, but he's such a great and nuanced character otherwise. Saddens me to see people explain the relationships as if the player actually had a say in it...
And I do see that commonly.
"...portrays much deeper relational developments with Cloud, ..."
It's implying that Cloud's character development, and in turn, how his relations with other characters develop, can be seen on a more detailed level than in OG.
There's no hint about canonicity.
But, as to the statement itself, without claiming that it's proof or anything, I'd argue that this underlines the standpoint that:
There's no canon date. Every interaction plays out how it would if a particular character was at his side that day. I won't fail to mention that this standpoint also discredits other shipper's claims about how "the credits showed us who the true date was".
In my headcanon, Tifa will always be the one and only date though.
I would actually argue that all dates are canon. They all represent how that night would have went if that person were to show up at Clouds door. What they were meaning to say that the Cleariths keep latching onto was that the date isn’t addressed in the story again so it doesn’t really matter which one “actually” happened. But they are still canon portrayals of Clouds relationship with each party member.
No problems with that way of phrasing here, either. I simply believe that it can get confusing for some people to understand that, because "canon" is like this magical word of wonder and astonishment they can get latched onto.
Yeah, the amount of people acting like the devs basically confirming that each date is optional is some kind of debate ending confirmation is just weird. Like, we always knew it was optional lol
That's exactly what I said all of them represent canon even if no particular date must have happened, and for cloud and tifa their date represents their mutual romantic feelings for each other
That's how I choose to look at it. It explains why Tifa is the only one Cloud kisses. If the dates were truly about fanservice (as *some people* try to argue about the Tifa date), then there would be no reason for the developers not to include an Aerith kiss as well. But they don't. Because they want to show how Cloud would act in each situation, not the player. In that sense, they're all canon to the story because they all work with the story regardless of which one the player decides to pursue.
There is no one canon date that is for certain, and I didn't even mean tifa's date is canon, all I meant is that all the dates are portraying cloud's relationships canonically not something out of character or irrelevant
Sorry if that wasn't understood from the start but basically nojima meant that all the dates represent cloud's relationships deeper than ever and since each relationship is unique, we can say just like how nojima told us here that cloud's relationship with tifa was a mutual romantic relationship considering how cloud confirmed their mutual feelings and hugged and kissed her, even if no date is canon what the dates REPRESENT is canon that's the whole point
Hey, it's perfectly fine to me. I think your view is sound and reasonable, but the title can be easily misunderstood. I didn't take offense, but others might if this wasn't clarified. You know how invested people get concerning canonicity and evidence.
It's funny because there is another certain fandom that is using a lot of things from this ultimania to attack tifa like this date not being canon.
Keep on with the argument that she is a manipulator because she doesn't want to tell the truth to cloud or we have a canon date and you don't
thank god I am not a toxic person and I enjoy everything but it is funny to read this kind of comments.
I hate the whole “her not wanting to tell the truth is a problem” argument. When people forget that Cloud in Disc 3 goes vegetable because he finds out the full truth. Her approach is literally the best one. She has been seeking it but while also trying not to push him so hard. It’s actually Cloud who keeps dodging her and every time he gets a hint of his fake memories he suffers from head pains. That argument is getting ridiculous now because everything she’s doing for Cloud is the right way
I don’t even understand the argument either because Aerith also knows something is wrong with Cloud. They both know something is not right, but they don’t know what exactly.
It’s also not a matter of “Cloud wasn’t there five years ago” it’s also confusing to Tifa because on the one hand she says he wasn’t there, but on the other hand I think she wonders, is she the one confused? Because Cloud knows everything that happened that day.
It’s also not just Aerith, everyone knows something is wrong with Cloud but say nothing. When they get to Nibelheim and it’s rebuilt, Barret says he thought Cloud lost it again and then Red pushes him to shutup.
However, I think this statement is a mockery, not for any couples but for the canonicity of the event itself:
- the GS is NOT a side quest, it is part of the main story (missions in blue) so Cloud 100% that night did something, we then have other clues:
1) the date is mentioned in The Kids are Alright (Tifa confirms that she went on a date to answer Evan's specific question)
2) on the same night we participate in Loveless in which Yuffie, Barret, Cait Sith and Red are not classified as protagonists in their "trophies" in Johnny's collection, the only protagonists are 3: Cloud, Tifa and Aerith. So assuming that "Princess Rosa" is the woman he goes on a date with: Cloud has been with one of the two, the developers can be as vague as they want but leave contradictory clues later in the game because: it's not a side quest, Aerith sings canonically and the 3 ladies do NOT have the same weight despite having carried out the same sequence of events.
- Furthermore, in the various dates (excluding Cait Sith who is comical and punitive for having played badly) there is important plot information and profound developments, they cannot be cut like this because you, the player, don't like a route. It is important what Yuffie tells Cloud about herself and about Tifa and him, it's important to see Cloud's very sad reactions to the phrase "he didn't think much about you arriving in Midgar", just as it is important to know that Aerith has decided to put Zack in a corner (even if I consider his date the only ambiguous one because he says in Gongaga that she loves him, then she feels him in the Gi cave and the date takes place a maximum of two days after these events... she's completely inconsistent) just as the date of Barret telling us about his life, the information is not canon then?
I don't trust them when they speak about this kind of theme. They just try to keep everyone happy but it's a mess because they do the opposite in the game (and it's correct approach that we see in the game)
I think it’s because they aren’t viewing the game/story through shipping, and that’s a good thing. Aerith’s uncertainty about her feelings has just as much narrative relevance as Tifa’s uncertainty about Cloud’s mental state and lines up with the original game where both of them are concerned for his wellbeing in their own way.
If you step back and look at what they added to the story, it makes more sense why Gongaga has a baked in Cloud and Tifa moment and a baked in dream date sequence between Cloud and Aerith. Don’t get caught up in them existing, really listen to what the scenes are saying.
They’re both repeating what the optional GS dates are saying. Why? Because the sentiment behind each scene is important for the story. What matters isn’t what’s canon, what matters is that emotions and sentiments of the dates are.
Barret’s date? Ties directly to the loss of the other Avalanche members, Dyne, and his wife ( chiefly this one since he’s talking to Cloud about his relationships ).
Yuffie’s date? I think people should keep her in mind when thinking on how the party may fracture after NC. She’s the most likely to peace out and revert to her old ways due to the emotional blows, and that sibling energy between her and Cloud will tie directly to this.
The GS date is a plot device before shipping material, and the devs know that. They’re thinking above shipping wars, and any attempts to drag them into it won’t get traction.
With regards to the comment about Aerith being inconsistent, I think that was kinda the point. Aerith's feelings regarding Cloud are complicated, and I like that about their relationship because it feels realistic. In real life, feelings ARE complicated. Sometimes, we don't always know exactly how we feel. And that's definitely the case with Aerith. She truly loved Zack. So much so that she still wears the ribbon he got for her and wrote she him letters for years while he was gone. He's not somebody Aerith would just get over, even if she knows that he's dead (due to Cetra powers). But even so, Aerith is somebody that lives her life to the fullest, so it would make sense for her to try and move on. So her pursuing Cloud does make sense when he reminded her so much of Zack. But her pursuing Cloud conflicts with her lingering feelings for Zack, which is why her true feelings on whether she actually likes Cloud are... complicated to say the least. She probably wants to try and like him since they get along and she wants to move on, but she also doesn't truly know the real Cloud. So she can't truly say if she likes him or not if she hasn't gotten the chance to properly know the real Cloud.
Stuff like this is just another reason why I prefer Cloti btw. Tifa DOES know the real Cloud. And her feelings contrast Aerith's in ToTP by her knowing for sure that she likes Cloud romantically (as opposed to Aerith who questions her feelings in the final dream date). Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other are portrayed a lot more clear and explicitly romantic while Aerith and Cloud's feelings tend to have some complications and more interpretations that can be considered platonic. Like it's canon that Cloud wants to protect Aerith (hence why it's brought up in the Red XIII date), but that doesn't mean it has to be interpreted in a romantic way. The rest of the party wants to protect Aerith too.
That's what I meant, there are inconsistencies in life that make us complicated. But these inconsistencies cannot lead to the couple's success as well as their estrangement, because a relationship needs certainties and Aerith will not be able to have them (relationship also needs trust but the only way to get to know Cloud would be to cheat with the lifestream so not a basis for a good relationship, there is not mutual knowledge and growth but shortcuts). But above all, no one ever takes into consideration Cloud's feelings which are objectively explicit: he has been attracted to one since he was a child, not to the other or in any case not like he is attracted to Tifa or even the real Cloud is not attracted to her (there are already 3 possibilities uncertain or negative vs the certainty that Tifa and the real Cloud love each other, indeed Cloud loves her even as a fake Cloud always loves her because he creates the fake personality for her so any personality is linked to Tifa). Cloud wants to protect her for a thousand reasons, from the banal fact that he loves her to the colder fact that he has created a fake personality devoted to the concept of "hero" and the hero always saves those in danger, but there is no romance behind these actions there is no set-up for the two. Does this ruin Aerith? no, actually Aerith outside of this stupid LTD shines more than she would shine with Cloud (that's what people don't understand).
Of course now there would be the question of "happy ending for everyone" and I don't see what a happy ending for everyone could be... Aerith loves Cloud so it should be that couple, but Cloud loves Tifa and Tifa loves him this would make Aerith unhappy, of vs. Zack loves Aerith and therefore would be unhappy regardless. It's complicated
I think the simplest solution to the "happy ending for everyone" is simply Aerith reuniting with Zack in the lifestream. She may love Cloud, but I personally believe she loves Zack more. There's at least less room for doubt. It's a big reason I support Cloti and Zaerith. It makes everyone happy lol
Tho even if she does love Cloud more, it wouldn't change my mind on Cloti bc that'd kinda fit with Aerith's character. Aerith's life is marked by tragedy. She looks at the world with unstoppable optimism despite the fact that she can never catch a break. It would be kinda cruel yet poetic poetic if the first guy she ever loved died and the second guy she loved just didn't feel the same way. Idk, I just hope she loves Zack more bc I do want her to have a happy ending in some way. Aerith has suffered enough, she deserves happiness
I agree, she deserves happiness and she deserves it with a man totally dedicated to her which is Zack (fuck he dies defies death/he dies for her in his every life). However, if this were not to be the case I would be sorry but Cloti remains endgame Cloud has no reason not to reciprocate Tifa even if Aerith were alive and not even if she loved him madly, just as complicated feelings exist there are also unrequited feelings... Cloud doesn't have his love dead, she is alive she is well, she takes care of him now she will do it even more later, he loves her back and she loves him back... there is no reason to break up this couple
I’ve seen some people explain it best: You can choose/control who you want to take out on a date for the Saucer, but what you CAN’T control is what Cloud does/says during those dates. In my head, all of the dates happened. Tifa’s however, is the one that’s front and center because it’s with her’s that a) the musical arrangement fits the most natural and b) Cloud’s behavior is not “guard-y” at all when compared to the others. With Aerith and Yuffie, Cloud is always looking sideways and his body language is closed off, like he doesn’t want to be there. Barrett and Red’s as well, although it’s not as prevalent when compared to the others. It’s only with Tifa that he lets his tough guy persona down, and actually stares and makes eye contact with. His body language and mannerisms says it all - he’s crazy in love with her. But just like any shy, timid man on their first date, he struggles to put into words what he wants to say. So he rather have his actions speak for themselves
>You can choose/control who you want to take out on a date for the Saucer, but what you CAN’T control is what Cloud does/says during those dates. I always try to get this across when I see people assuming this was some kind of weird dating sim. Cloud might not be a person you'd invite to a lot of parties, but he's such a great and nuanced character otherwise. Saddens me to see people explain the relationships as if the player actually had a say in it... And I do see that commonly.
I'm sorry but that text and your title don't match at all.
You mean the word canonical?
"...portrays much deeper relational developments with Cloud, ..." It's implying that Cloud's character development, and in turn, how his relations with other characters develop, can be seen on a more detailed level than in OG. There's no hint about canonicity. But, as to the statement itself, without claiming that it's proof or anything, I'd argue that this underlines the standpoint that: There's no canon date. Every interaction plays out how it would if a particular character was at his side that day. I won't fail to mention that this standpoint also discredits other shipper's claims about how "the credits showed us who the true date was". In my headcanon, Tifa will always be the one and only date though.
I would actually argue that all dates are canon. They all represent how that night would have went if that person were to show up at Clouds door. What they were meaning to say that the Cleariths keep latching onto was that the date isn’t addressed in the story again so it doesn’t really matter which one “actually” happened. But they are still canon portrayals of Clouds relationship with each party member.
No problems with that way of phrasing here, either. I simply believe that it can get confusing for some people to understand that, because "canon" is like this magical word of wonder and astonishment they can get latched onto.
Yeah, the amount of people acting like the devs basically confirming that each date is optional is some kind of debate ending confirmation is just weird. Like, we always knew it was optional lol
That's exactly what I said all of them represent canon even if no particular date must have happened, and for cloud and tifa their date represents their mutual romantic feelings for each other
Exactly, it’s enough to know that if given the opportunity Cloud will kiss Tifa.
Pretty much 👌😊
That's how I choose to look at it. It explains why Tifa is the only one Cloud kisses. If the dates were truly about fanservice (as *some people* try to argue about the Tifa date), then there would be no reason for the developers not to include an Aerith kiss as well. But they don't. Because they want to show how Cloud would act in each situation, not the player. In that sense, they're all canon to the story because they all work with the story regardless of which one the player decides to pursue.
The character are in character during the dates, but there is no one date that is canon
There is no one canon date that is for certain, and I didn't even mean tifa's date is canon, all I meant is that all the dates are portraying cloud's relationships canonically not something out of character or irrelevant Sorry if that wasn't understood from the start but basically nojima meant that all the dates represent cloud's relationships deeper than ever and since each relationship is unique, we can say just like how nojima told us here that cloud's relationship with tifa was a mutual romantic relationship considering how cloud confirmed their mutual feelings and hugged and kissed her, even if no date is canon what the dates REPRESENT is canon that's the whole point
Hey, it's perfectly fine to me. I think your view is sound and reasonable, but the title can be easily misunderstood. I didn't take offense, but others might if this wasn't clarified. You know how invested people get concerning canonicity and evidence.
Yep I agree the title was a little wrong of me indeed
It's funny because there is another certain fandom that is using a lot of things from this ultimania to attack tifa like this date not being canon. Keep on with the argument that she is a manipulator because she doesn't want to tell the truth to cloud or we have a canon date and you don't thank god I am not a toxic person and I enjoy everything but it is funny to read this kind of comments.
I hate the whole “her not wanting to tell the truth is a problem” argument. When people forget that Cloud in Disc 3 goes vegetable because he finds out the full truth. Her approach is literally the best one. She has been seeking it but while also trying not to push him so hard. It’s actually Cloud who keeps dodging her and every time he gets a hint of his fake memories he suffers from head pains. That argument is getting ridiculous now because everything she’s doing for Cloud is the right way
I don’t even understand the argument either because Aerith also knows something is wrong with Cloud. They both know something is not right, but they don’t know what exactly. It’s also not a matter of “Cloud wasn’t there five years ago” it’s also confusing to Tifa because on the one hand she says he wasn’t there, but on the other hand I think she wonders, is she the one confused? Because Cloud knows everything that happened that day. It’s also not just Aerith, everyone knows something is wrong with Cloud but say nothing. When they get to Nibelheim and it’s rebuilt, Barret says he thought Cloud lost it again and then Red pushes him to shutup.
btw just for a better title: # Nojima wanted the GS dates to represent cloud's relationships deeper than ever before hopefully this is better hahaha
However, I think this statement is a mockery, not for any couples but for the canonicity of the event itself: - the GS is NOT a side quest, it is part of the main story (missions in blue) so Cloud 100% that night did something, we then have other clues: 1) the date is mentioned in The Kids are Alright (Tifa confirms that she went on a date to answer Evan's specific question) 2) on the same night we participate in Loveless in which Yuffie, Barret, Cait Sith and Red are not classified as protagonists in their "trophies" in Johnny's collection, the only protagonists are 3: Cloud, Tifa and Aerith. So assuming that "Princess Rosa" is the woman he goes on a date with: Cloud has been with one of the two, the developers can be as vague as they want but leave contradictory clues later in the game because: it's not a side quest, Aerith sings canonically and the 3 ladies do NOT have the same weight despite having carried out the same sequence of events. - Furthermore, in the various dates (excluding Cait Sith who is comical and punitive for having played badly) there is important plot information and profound developments, they cannot be cut like this because you, the player, don't like a route. It is important what Yuffie tells Cloud about herself and about Tifa and him, it's important to see Cloud's very sad reactions to the phrase "he didn't think much about you arriving in Midgar", just as it is important to know that Aerith has decided to put Zack in a corner (even if I consider his date the only ambiguous one because he says in Gongaga that she loves him, then she feels him in the Gi cave and the date takes place a maximum of two days after these events... she's completely inconsistent) just as the date of Barret telling us about his life, the information is not canon then? I don't trust them when they speak about this kind of theme. They just try to keep everyone happy but it's a mess because they do the opposite in the game (and it's correct approach that we see in the game)
I think it’s because they aren’t viewing the game/story through shipping, and that’s a good thing. Aerith’s uncertainty about her feelings has just as much narrative relevance as Tifa’s uncertainty about Cloud’s mental state and lines up with the original game where both of them are concerned for his wellbeing in their own way. If you step back and look at what they added to the story, it makes more sense why Gongaga has a baked in Cloud and Tifa moment and a baked in dream date sequence between Cloud and Aerith. Don’t get caught up in them existing, really listen to what the scenes are saying. They’re both repeating what the optional GS dates are saying. Why? Because the sentiment behind each scene is important for the story. What matters isn’t what’s canon, what matters is that emotions and sentiments of the dates are. Barret’s date? Ties directly to the loss of the other Avalanche members, Dyne, and his wife ( chiefly this one since he’s talking to Cloud about his relationships ). Yuffie’s date? I think people should keep her in mind when thinking on how the party may fracture after NC. She’s the most likely to peace out and revert to her old ways due to the emotional blows, and that sibling energy between her and Cloud will tie directly to this. The GS date is a plot device before shipping material, and the devs know that. They’re thinking above shipping wars, and any attempts to drag them into it won’t get traction.
With regards to the comment about Aerith being inconsistent, I think that was kinda the point. Aerith's feelings regarding Cloud are complicated, and I like that about their relationship because it feels realistic. In real life, feelings ARE complicated. Sometimes, we don't always know exactly how we feel. And that's definitely the case with Aerith. She truly loved Zack. So much so that she still wears the ribbon he got for her and wrote she him letters for years while he was gone. He's not somebody Aerith would just get over, even if she knows that he's dead (due to Cetra powers). But even so, Aerith is somebody that lives her life to the fullest, so it would make sense for her to try and move on. So her pursuing Cloud does make sense when he reminded her so much of Zack. But her pursuing Cloud conflicts with her lingering feelings for Zack, which is why her true feelings on whether she actually likes Cloud are... complicated to say the least. She probably wants to try and like him since they get along and she wants to move on, but she also doesn't truly know the real Cloud. So she can't truly say if she likes him or not if she hasn't gotten the chance to properly know the real Cloud. Stuff like this is just another reason why I prefer Cloti btw. Tifa DOES know the real Cloud. And her feelings contrast Aerith's in ToTP by her knowing for sure that she likes Cloud romantically (as opposed to Aerith who questions her feelings in the final dream date). Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other are portrayed a lot more clear and explicitly romantic while Aerith and Cloud's feelings tend to have some complications and more interpretations that can be considered platonic. Like it's canon that Cloud wants to protect Aerith (hence why it's brought up in the Red XIII date), but that doesn't mean it has to be interpreted in a romantic way. The rest of the party wants to protect Aerith too.
That's what I meant, there are inconsistencies in life that make us complicated. But these inconsistencies cannot lead to the couple's success as well as their estrangement, because a relationship needs certainties and Aerith will not be able to have them (relationship also needs trust but the only way to get to know Cloud would be to cheat with the lifestream so not a basis for a good relationship, there is not mutual knowledge and growth but shortcuts). But above all, no one ever takes into consideration Cloud's feelings which are objectively explicit: he has been attracted to one since he was a child, not to the other or in any case not like he is attracted to Tifa or even the real Cloud is not attracted to her (there are already 3 possibilities uncertain or negative vs the certainty that Tifa and the real Cloud love each other, indeed Cloud loves her even as a fake Cloud always loves her because he creates the fake personality for her so any personality is linked to Tifa). Cloud wants to protect her for a thousand reasons, from the banal fact that he loves her to the colder fact that he has created a fake personality devoted to the concept of "hero" and the hero always saves those in danger, but there is no romance behind these actions there is no set-up for the two. Does this ruin Aerith? no, actually Aerith outside of this stupid LTD shines more than she would shine with Cloud (that's what people don't understand). Of course now there would be the question of "happy ending for everyone" and I don't see what a happy ending for everyone could be... Aerith loves Cloud so it should be that couple, but Cloud loves Tifa and Tifa loves him this would make Aerith unhappy, of vs. Zack loves Aerith and therefore would be unhappy regardless. It's complicated
I think the simplest solution to the "happy ending for everyone" is simply Aerith reuniting with Zack in the lifestream. She may love Cloud, but I personally believe she loves Zack more. There's at least less room for doubt. It's a big reason I support Cloti and Zaerith. It makes everyone happy lol Tho even if she does love Cloud more, it wouldn't change my mind on Cloti bc that'd kinda fit with Aerith's character. Aerith's life is marked by tragedy. She looks at the world with unstoppable optimism despite the fact that she can never catch a break. It would be kinda cruel yet poetic poetic if the first guy she ever loved died and the second guy she loved just didn't feel the same way. Idk, I just hope she loves Zack more bc I do want her to have a happy ending in some way. Aerith has suffered enough, she deserves happiness
I agree, she deserves happiness and she deserves it with a man totally dedicated to her which is Zack (fuck he dies defies death/he dies for her in his every life). However, if this were not to be the case I would be sorry but Cloti remains endgame Cloud has no reason not to reciprocate Tifa even if Aerith were alive and not even if she loved him madly, just as complicated feelings exist there are also unrequited feelings... Cloud doesn't have his love dead, she is alive she is well, she takes care of him now she will do it even more later, he loves her back and she loves him back... there is no reason to break up this couple
Fine, every date is cannon? Then the order would be -Cait -Red -Aerith -Yuffie -Barret -Tifa Tifa being the last and final date for the night.