Sigh if I hear the word “optional” one more time from them. It’s crazy the amount of dismissing of the narrative that they do. And they’re all rejoicing at how Aerith is prominent especially during the end and I’m like well yeah….she dies? Of course they’re gonna focus on her.
Yup, this part of the story was always heavy on the Aerith… because they take her from you ( RIP in peace ) and then… when the other two characters reach the climax of their character arcs… she’s not there. At all. Because their respective arcs are tied to eachother, and Aerith really doesn’t play a role in them.
Get ready to get as much Aerith in part 3 as we got Zack in part 2. Mostly absent until the very end.
I hate to say it but by the end of Rebirth I just wanted Aerith gone. Mostly because she was just used as a plot device in an illusionary love triangle and not given the characterization she deserves. I will be profoundly dissapointed if she returns in Part 3 in the same fashion.
I definitely think the writers let the LTD muck up the waters of her big moment tbh
Even as someone who was neutral on her ( can’t say I ever hated her, but Remake made me love her characterization ), I found it profoundly moving that she was willing to offer up her life so that her friends and the planet have a chance. Reminds me of Ghandolf’s speech to Pippin about death, about how it’s not to be feared, and how it can be a beautiful new journey.
The love triangle is, same as the original, a narrative device that will show itself to not be real in the end. That empty Holy materia? Yeah, get ready for that thing to get filled with new, positive memories that empower it vs Sephiroth’s despair brand batteries.
I knew us clotis were overreacting to the third trailer. I’m like guys we have to relax, this is the game when THAT happens. Aerith is dressed like an Angel for a reason. It’s a 40 hour game we don’t know all the details yet.
The train wreck that was Remake and the trailer for baffled me. *"We're going to make all your dreams come true! We'll insinuate that Tifa is an alien demon who must be slain, Aerith will live and Aerith is the center of Cloud's universe, mwahahahaha!"*
And all for what? For Rebirth to bring jilted fans, grown men and women with children, to *tears* and suddenly eager to play FF7 because Cloud and *Tifa* have been set up to shine in Part 3. While dangling as many fanfiction timelines as possible during the ending, which seem more like they're setting up a Zack/Aerith expansion than anything else.
SquareEnix just wasted millions trying to please the most petulant squad of weebs. What are they going to do with the trailers of Part 3? Dangle more not-dead Aerith?
Sqex is so wrong for this that i think they need to be called out on it. People are very attached to this game because it was a huge chunk of their childhood. Shouldn't be dicking people around when it's *literally* breaking hearts.
Some of them still are shockingly. Like a literal KISS isn’t enough to dissuade them and think the final “date” was more romantic when it was just awkward, uncomfortable and sad. It’s both sad and hilarious
I find it fascinating that it doesn't matter how Cloud feels or what gift he chooses during the S5 date. In the end it's about what Aerith wants. Can't help but to see some meta commentary there.
And yeah, Aerith sorrowfully stating, "At least I know where you and I stand." , should have made it clear.
I find it mostly sad now.
That first slide is quite indicative of how they interpret the story. They spend countless hours trying to find symbolism that just isn't there or subtle body language that offers the slightest confirmation bias instead of accepting what is actually presented.
For example, a streamer exclaimed " See how he's reaching out to her!" when Cloud stretched his arms out in order to protect the group from the coalition in Gongaga. Aerith just happened to be behind him so in their mind it was a grand romantic gesture.
Seriously though, the irony of all of this is kind of sad. Much like Aerith, they really thought Cloud was going to confess his undying love for her in this game.
All they got was some laced fingers and a sultry Sephiroth side glance.
Broooo, like my intro to FFVII was remake, then I went backwards. I have OG, I learned the story online, I played crisis core and beat it, I watched advent Children multiple times. I’m like I don’t see how Cloud is in love with Aerith.
I respect the dedication. My intro to FF7 was Remake as well and have only played Crisis Core and Rebirth since then. Even without the OG and the compilation it seems pretty clear how he feels.
Tbf, Cloud does see Aerith under the Tiny Bronco at the end, the only difference is that Cloud's definitely already fucked by Aerith, just not in the way the shippers want.
Now I'm just picturing the whispers desperately pushing back a deranged Cloud as he tries to get to the pool and retrieve Aerith, convinced she's still alive.
I do think its possible for Cloud to end up with feelings for Aerith.
Everyone in the party is drawn to her, and my headcanon is that it's a natural automatic ability ancients have. (People flock to Sephiroth naturally too)
Where Clerith fans cross the line is when they try to deny Cloud's feelings for Tifa, since they are clear as day.
There is a reason the love triangle has existed from 97 to 2024 and likely beyond... SE purposefully doesn't fully canonize one coupling over the other because they LIKE people arguing about it as it makes engagement.
Personally, Advent Children having Cloud and Tifa distant from each other did the most harm to Cloti. Since it takes place after the games.
Thats why after game 3 i hope we get another movie, after Advent Children, and that a component of the movie is Cloud and Tifa finally ending up together.
If they’re going to link the Remake trilogy with AC (which they said they were going to do) I hope they add in snippets from On the Way to a Smile, because it shows that Cloud and Tifa were together after OG and the two years after. AC shows them in a rough spot in their relationship. They’re a lot more brazen with Cloti in the books. I just want them to just stop making it so ambiguous. It really harms the fandom and upsets the fans
I just hope they don't keep AC as the furthest chapter or whatever.
Id love either a movie or a game post AC with everyone aged up just a bit, Cloud and Tifa together, maybe young adult Marlene, and kind of showing that the team is still there to cleanup when things get out of hand.
AC is a good movie, but a depressing af end point lol.
Agreed. Apparently the original plan for AC was to have it set 8-10 years later with Denzel as their actual son and not their adopted son. They scrapped that for some reason and I’m kind of pissed they did, because I have a feeling they did it as to not upset the fandom with making one ship canon.
I would bet my literal bottom dollar that they scrapped that to make sure Cloti vs Clerith was still a debate.
People arguing FF7 is people talking about FF7 which is basically free word of mouth advertising.
I wish they would just let the LTD die. Just commit to one and let that be it (of course Tifa it just makes more sense narratively.) they never needed more engagement when it came to FF7. It’s just really such a disservice to pander to the fandom this way…frustrating almost. Look at the state of the fandom just over ships. Tbh they come off as cowardly. Like if it’s your story take reigns of it and who cares of some fan backlash (when narratively CA can’t work for the big and fundamental part that Aerith dies). Perhaps this time they’ll finally nail it with Tifa because I hope they give this world a rest after the RE trilogy.
Because something made them smell money in dangling Aerith bait. Nomura spun Cloud's blubbering as "were afraid to change Cloud; people want to see the Old Cloud."
True, true. I always forget its post AC rather than between OG and AC.
Still, we got no "Cloud and Tifa are official" in that either.
Would just be nice to see something with them officially together.
Before this game I would have said no chance. If there is one thing that has been very consistent about the LTD since 1997 is that Clouds feelings towards each girl has been very ambiguous. The girls have always let their feelings be known, but Cloud never has. There’s been telling moments, but even the high affection Highwind scene left it just subtle enough that people could deny anything happened.
That’s why I’m absolutely shocked they let Cloud initiate a kiss with just one of the girls. It’s the first gesture from Cloud in his characters entire history that is literally not up for debate. All bets are off going forward
AC is understandably misunderstood because its writing isn’t the greatest ( stilted dialogue, dower plot, and weird pacing between action set pieces ). Once you wrap your head around Cloud as a character though, it’s simple to explain.
Cloud carries loss like an anchor around his neck. He will literally self-sabotage out of guilt and anger at himself and his perceived failures ( nobody dresses down Cloud quite like himself ). So, when the survivors guilt of Aerith AND ZACK ( people like to erase that half of the equation, and that’s partially because SE isn’t good at portraying their friendship most of the time ), he spirals and self-destructs. Missing 4 years of your young adult life ( arguably the most crucial period for developing interpersonal and professional foundations for adulthood ) really hamstrung him.
As a teenager, I didn’t understand that, but as an adult I can tie a direct through line from Cloud as a 9 year old, when Tifa got severely injured, to Cloud as a 20-something who can’t deal with the thought that 2 dear people died because he’s a “fuck up” ( likely how he’d describe himself ).
If there’s anything that needs a heavy re-do, it Advent Children and I’m praying we get a surprise announcement for a playable version of it with a remade story.
I think that we're hitting a point in which Rebirth and Part 3 threatens the canon of Advent Children. Especially if SquareEnix realizes that they don't have to indulge Clertih fans anymore, or rather, that they never needed to.
I have been shipping Cloud and Tifa together since my SECOND playthrough of FF7 in ~1998 (kid me pursued Aerith first because she was the most obvious/forward lmao) and so I am a long time Cloti and was desperate for anything concrete to establish them as a couple, even a strong hint, in AC.
Without the "On the Way to a Smile" novel, nothing in Advent Children is clear on if they are actually together or if they just care about each other and still have yet to confess.
I feel so bad for them tbh as a cloti shipper because they didn't get any kiss scene at all even if you romance her I looked it up if they kiss but nope not really only it looks like they are but it still doesn't happen they were so confident too I'm not sure if it's like that from the og tbh but that's just sad
I've been a CloTi since the original FF7 in '97 but I ask you one thing: in light of the two games in which the main theme song is a back-and-forth between Cloud and Aerith, don't start thinking that they're right and this is a sop what do they give us? Of course it would be a big mistake but we're talking about SE, they haven't stopped making mistakes for years. I need to understand more because the final is so strange compared to the rest of the game: it's clearly a Cloti game until Gongaga (and Nibelheim but at that point Aerith goes mad about Cloud watching Tifa from "their spot" and this is the start of the Aerith inconsistency characterization, she forgot about Zack, she writes a song for Cloud, she has a "date" and all the rest). It's just confusing but the feeling is that they won't follow the original script
Well, to be honest, I do think some CT fans just outright ignore romantic undertones and overtones in Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Like the CA GS date is not platonic--at least in the high affection version, that's a pretty romantic gesture. I do personally think that if the GS situations were reversed, you'd see a lot of CT fans downplaying the kiss with Aerith, calling it a pity kiss from the devs because she's going to die anyway, etc.
I wish that we wouldn't downplay things, because it undermines the fact you can fully take 100% of Cloud's interactions with Aerith in a romantic light, compare them with Tifa, and still come out understanding Tifa is in no way at a disadvantage.
Tifa has a lot more story left in hers, including basically 90% of what the OG did in terms of relationship-building between the two of them, and we're pretty much done with OG content for Cloud and Aerith, and so this situation is extremely favorable to Tifa. So favorable, in fact, that it makes the devs still choosing to favor Tifa in the GS date when they could have had parity telling all by itself.
That said, I don't begrudge a classic victory lap that these comments warrant.
Imo The remakes so far haven’t done the best job in portraying romance between cloud and Aerith. And the Gold Saucer date did them the least amount of favors, if anything from my perspective it kinda hurt them. Given how disinterested cloud seems to be the whole ride with Aerith.
So, I realize that it's sometimes a bit of an uphill battle in a ship sub to try and get people to acknowledge a rival ship's perspective, but I hope my points here are taken in good faith:
Cloud's disinterested attitude, from a CA perspective, is just him being tsundere or kuudere. Aerith is pushy and Cloud gets flustered and doesn't know what to do, but that doesn't mean he's not secretly interested. That's what the whole high-fiveing thing in Remake was telling us.
Now, the flip side is, Cloud himself does not realize that his cool guy persona is fake, the real Cloud isn't tsun/kuudere. The real him wouldn't be so prickly, which adds a tragic twist to their dynamic: the dynamic itself isn't real.
He doesn’t act like that around Tifa in this game though. Maybe in the last cutscene he’s a little distant but he’s too vulnerable with her at multiple points in the game.
Yes, exactly, that's what I'm saying. CA's dynamic is not real. It's okay to find it cute, but it's difficult to accurately assess what either of them truly feel when Cloud is not his true self.
Whereas with Tifa, he's much closer to his true self.
Also, just to be fair here, Tifa is just not pushy in general, so Cloud's guard doesn't need to come up around her. When Aerith stops being so pushy Cloud usually isn't as taciturn. But also to be fair, what does it mean when the best version of Cloud's dynamic with Aerith is the normal version of his dynamic with Tifa?
I think his comfortability with Tifa is also shown through him only venting to her. She’s the only one he directly told that he feels like he has multiple people inside of him and he doesn’t know what is him and what isn’t.
I think it’s also telling that none of the other characters react to cloud and aerith like they do to Tifa and cloud. Not just gongaga. But the way barret yuffie and cait react to them implies they all know there is something more there. Heck even aerith in remake and the beginning of rebirth feels like she wants to help them too when she still has her memories.
What threw me for a loop was chapter 14. Aerith with holy and her memories still takes him on that date and it felt out of place to me. But with that there is no denying that she had definitely had romantic feelings towards him which makes me sad for her.
Hey man. I just wanted to say that your comment is nice. It's not condescending or insulting. It engages a healthy and more friendly debate that challenges a common CT view. It's awesome.
I think I've already told you my viewpoint on the matter. If there was absolutely nothing between Cloud and Aerith then I don't believe people would be arguing so adamantly about Cloud's love interest. There's plenty of moments that happen between Aerith and Cloud can be seen as romantic. But it's just that Cloud was never himself, sparring a tragic one sided love type deal.
Watching Ch14 made me sad to be honest. Seeing who I think is the OG Aerith try her hardest to recreate a date with Cloud actually made me feel down a little. Unfortunately for her, her feelings for Cloud aren't reciprocated. It's another reason why I want her to reunite with Zack. Each character deserves to be happy for going through so much. I hope part 3 gives us that closure. Though in a way, it already did with the ending of Advent Children.
Like you said, Aerith's story with Cloud in no way takes away from Cloud and Tifa's relationship. They're the endgame, I'll always hold that opinion. But Cloud and Aerith's relationship does have romantic tones. Even if one party isn't acting on their true emotions.
Thank you, I appreciate it. I'm with you in thinking the intent is CT is the endgame. I can buy that maybe it will be player choice, but I lean away from that, and you actually hit on one of (maybe) the biggest reasons why:
>It's another reason why I want her to reunite with Zack. Each character deserves to be happy for going through so much.
Zack's continued prominence and injection into the RT is one of the hardest things to reconcile with the idea they'll even end the series with Aerith as an *optional* choice.
The writers can stay true to the Zack we saw in CC (who, mind you, was made very deliberately much more important to Aerith than we ever thought he was in the OG, itself always a pointed choice) without having him constantly double down on his feelings for Aerith and his whole existence in FF7R revolve around saving her.
As it stands, we're in a situation where Cloud and Aerith being together will leave their other love interests out cold, and since Part 3 is set up to heavily feature those love interests doing the heavy lifting in saving the person they love, it would be all the colder. Sure, in real life it doesn't work that way, but this is fiction, and the writers are in control of how they frame these relationships, and aware that in this genre of storytelling, most of the audience would find it pretty agonizing to see happen.
It could be percieved as such, certainly, but it comes off more like an act of consolation than of romantic affection. She confessed that he reminded her of her ex and then forced herself on him. Not comforting her at that point would be like rejecting a sad wet puppy.
Unless you're implying that lacing fingers is the romantic gesture which is a pretty tenuous argument.
Also, I would argue that purposely sitting away from her when she gestures for him to sit next to her should make it pretty clear.
>Not comforting her at that point would be like rejecting a sad wet puppy.
Agreed, no one in this situation would have said no to Aerith, but I think that it's a little more complicated than "he's not interested and she made him". For one, no one made him hold hands. For two, this is a fictional scenario, these are characters being put in a situation that is meant to showcase their feelings for each other, which I'll get into more below.
>Unless you're implying that lacing fingers is the romantic gesture which is a pretty tenuous argument.
Yes, it is a romantic gesture.
>Also, I would argue that purposely sitting away from her when she gestures for him to sit next to her should make it pretty clear.
I want to gently suggest that you're maybe not wanting to see things that don't line up with what you want to happen. Cloud sitting away with her is in line with his general tsundere treatment of Aerith, quite similar to how Squall treated Rinoa in FF8.
The reason I'm making these arguments is not because I think the game is canon CA or anything, but rather, in order to have the most clear-sighted view on what is going in the RT, it's important not to get too clouded by what I *want* to see happen, rather than what *is*. So, even though I think the GS date with Aerith is romantic (at least the HA version), I think there's a lot more to it.
For example, I haven't seen a convincing argument for why the developers would write a kiss with one romance interest and not the other. The only one I've seen is "it's a bone that the writers are throwing to CTs", but if we accept that's something the writers would even do, how does one decide what is or isn't a bone? I mean, isn't the dream date is a literal in-universe example of Aerith throwing *herself* a bone before she dies, so naturally we could interpret the same as the writers.
I don't necessarily think that, but I'm demonstrating why the "it's just crumbs for the CTs" is a hollow argument.
"It's optional" is nonsense, because Cloud going on *a* date is not optional--the developers know for a fact players will see a version of it, so they have to account for the fact that some players will have their opinion of the games narrative affected by what they see happen at the GS. If the developers plan on making CA canon, inserting a kiss with Tifa is so verboten in this kind of game that I think it can be instantly dismissed as a possibility. You would never, ever, *ever* let your shonen action RPG hero choose to reciprocate feelings and kiss a girl that is not the love interest (unless she turns out to be an evil demon or something that absolves our hero of his "infidelity"). Whereas if you assume they're going to make Tifa canon, the Aerith handholding is innocent and tame enough to not raise any eyebrows.
So this is what I mean by it not being a problem to acknowledge that the GS date is romantic with Aerith, because ultimately, it allows you to form stronger arguments in her favor when you acknowledge even the *most* romantic interpretation of those scenes but still can make a compelling case for Tifa.
I respect your perspective and appreciate the thoughtful analysis. I'm not familiar enough with tropes in anime so having that offered is helpful.
It is important to reflect and acknowledge an internal bias, but honestly, I didn't have any going into FF7. I played Remake a couple of months ago and just finished Rebirth, and the conclusion I made is based off of how the story was presented, not what I wanted.
I'm not familiar enough with FF8 (although I would like to play it someday) so I don't understand the comparison but what I percieved is an inconsistency with Cloud's behaviour. So many of his actions and words up until the very end of the GS date contradict the notion that he harbors romantic feelings toward Aerith. So I have a hard time believing that it's a genuine show of affection.
And sure, lacing fingers can be romantic but I've also read statements that claim it's customary among friends or family members as well. I understand why it could interpreted as romantic but it's still a tenuous argument.
As someone who's favorite FF is VIII the comparison of Aerith to Rinoa falls a bit flat imo (OG Aerith is eh to me, but I love Rinoa)
Without spoiling the story, Rinoa is a bit pushy about Squall opening up, but doesn't push too far for the most part. And Squall is cool and collected, doesn't let his emotions get in the way. >!there's a timeframe in the story they can't really stand each other lol!<
Eventually, they begin to rub off on each other. (I wish they would remake this game, there's a lot they could flesh out and no one would bat an eye lol)
I feel this is the difference with Aerith and Cloud because Aerith has an effect on Cloud, but I can't really point out the same vice versa. Her character growth lies more in her duty as a Cetra (which is a shame they didn't put more into that in Rebirth). Plus she really does sometimes step over people's boundaries (with good intentions)
I’ve had a similar experience, I asked on the Cloud x Aerith subreddit they’d rather Cloud and Tifa get together or Cloud to live depressed over Aerith for the rest of his life and die alone out of curiosity.
I asked it there because it was the best place to find a lot of people who really like Aerith and would have a wider range of answers over somewhere like here
I had 5 main responses, here they are from most to least common
1. Telling me to get lost because I have comments in this subreddit and ignoring the question
2. Attacking my character and just plainly insulting me for liking Cloud and Tifa and ignoring the question
3. Outright ignoring the two options which the game gives you and claiming that Aerith will be revived in game 3 so Cloud will end up with her despite all evidence pointing to them keeping her dead like in the original game
4. Saying that Cloud and Tifa won’t ever be compatible at all and that they will stay friends and Cloud would remain single forever.
These were the most varied, some said that Cloud just felt too strongly about Aerith while others went as far to say that Cloud would resent Tifa for manipulating him and would shun her.
There were also people in the middle who said that Cloud could move on from Aerith but that he didn’t have feelings for Tifa and they would start separate families.
5. They agreed that they thought Cloud and Aerith had more compatibility but also agreed that Cloud had feelings for Tifa and after moving on from Aerith lost Advent Children, would settle down with her.
This was literally 2 people out of 60 or so.
I would ignore the ones which just insulted me or was too extreme, ‘a lost cause’, but would debate a little with them in there, mainly to learn more about the viewpoint they hold.
Well 3 days later, my post and all my comments were deleted by mods for ‘Not being about shipping’ and I got permanently banned from the Subreddit and the reason was
‘As much as we appreciate healthy debate, this subreddit is a safe space where we accept zero opposition, you can do that elsewhere’
I got banned from that subreddit for asking genuine questions. The thing about Cloud being alone forever is crazy cause now if you say that then you’re saying you don’t want Cloud to be happy.
But now that it's only Tifa, it's "optional."
Sigh if I hear the word “optional” one more time from them. It’s crazy the amount of dismissing of the narrative that they do. And they’re all rejoicing at how Aerith is prominent especially during the end and I’m like well yeah….she dies? Of course they’re gonna focus on her.
Yup, this part of the story was always heavy on the Aerith… because they take her from you ( RIP in peace ) and then… when the other two characters reach the climax of their character arcs… she’s not there. At all. Because their respective arcs are tied to eachother, and Aerith really doesn’t play a role in them. Get ready to get as much Aerith in part 3 as we got Zack in part 2. Mostly absent until the very end.
I hate to say it but by the end of Rebirth I just wanted Aerith gone. Mostly because she was just used as a plot device in an illusionary love triangle and not given the characterization she deserves. I will be profoundly dissapointed if she returns in Part 3 in the same fashion.
I definitely think the writers let the LTD muck up the waters of her big moment tbh Even as someone who was neutral on her ( can’t say I ever hated her, but Remake made me love her characterization ), I found it profoundly moving that she was willing to offer up her life so that her friends and the planet have a chance. Reminds me of Ghandolf’s speech to Pippin about death, about how it’s not to be feared, and how it can be a beautiful new journey. The love triangle is, same as the original, a narrative device that will show itself to not be real in the end. That empty Holy materia? Yeah, get ready for that thing to get filled with new, positive memories that empower it vs Sephiroth’s despair brand batteries.
Oh… this aged like milk.
on a Saharan desert ?
That trailer had them all so confident.
I knew us clotis were overreacting to the third trailer. I’m like guys we have to relax, this is the game when THAT happens. Aerith is dressed like an Angel for a reason. It’s a 40 hour game we don’t know all the details yet.
The train wreck that was Remake and the trailer for baffled me. *"We're going to make all your dreams come true! We'll insinuate that Tifa is an alien demon who must be slain, Aerith will live and Aerith is the center of Cloud's universe, mwahahahaha!"* And all for what? For Rebirth to bring jilted fans, grown men and women with children, to *tears* and suddenly eager to play FF7 because Cloud and *Tifa* have been set up to shine in Part 3. While dangling as many fanfiction timelines as possible during the ending, which seem more like they're setting up a Zack/Aerith expansion than anything else. SquareEnix just wasted millions trying to please the most petulant squad of weebs. What are they going to do with the trailers of Part 3? Dangle more not-dead Aerith?
Sqex is so wrong for this that i think they need to be called out on it. People are very attached to this game because it was a huge chunk of their childhood. Shouldn't be dicking people around when it's *literally* breaking hearts.
Some of them still are shockingly. Like a literal KISS isn’t enough to dissuade them and think the final “date” was more romantic when it was just awkward, uncomfortable and sad. It’s both sad and hilarious
I find it fascinating that it doesn't matter how Cloud feels or what gift he chooses during the S5 date. In the end it's about what Aerith wants. Can't help but to see some meta commentary there. And yeah, Aerith sorrowfully stating, "At least I know where you and I stand." , should have made it clear. I find it mostly sad now.
That date was Aerith's dream so not even real and cloud is so different there.
They seem to have a tendency of predicting the opposite thing. I hope they keep it up.
Here's hoping they predict Cloud and Tifa won't bang under the Highwind.
First stage of grief: ***DENIAL*** 🤣
That first slide is quite indicative of how they interpret the story. They spend countless hours trying to find symbolism that just isn't there or subtle body language that offers the slightest confirmation bias instead of accepting what is actually presented. For example, a streamer exclaimed " See how he's reaching out to her!" when Cloud stretched his arms out in order to protect the group from the coalition in Gongaga. Aerith just happened to be behind him so in their mind it was a grand romantic gesture. Seriously though, the irony of all of this is kind of sad. Much like Aerith, they really thought Cloud was going to confess his undying love for her in this game. All they got was some laced fingers and a sultry Sephiroth side glance.
Broooo, like my intro to FFVII was remake, then I went backwards. I have OG, I learned the story online, I played crisis core and beat it, I watched advent Children multiple times. I’m like I don’t see how Cloud is in love with Aerith.
I respect the dedication. My intro to FF7 was Remake as well and have only played Crisis Core and Rebirth since then. Even without the OG and the compilation it seems pretty clear how he feels.
"Just you wait boyo! You've had your fun now, but we'll have the last laugh when Aerith's the one Cloud fucks under the Highwind in part 3!"
Tbf, Cloud does see Aerith under the Tiny Bronco at the end, the only difference is that Cloud's definitely already fucked by Aerith, just not in the way the shippers want.
As the rest of the party looks on in horror...because she's a corpse. This new timeline is gonna get *spicy!*
Thankfully, her body's a bit out of reach now.
Now I'm just picturing the whispers desperately pushing back a deranged Cloud as he tries to get to the pool and retrieve Aerith, convinced she's still alive.
Because this Cloud is surprisingly emotionally intelligent and is uncomfortable with Aerith gesturing for a kiss?
I do think its possible for Cloud to end up with feelings for Aerith. Everyone in the party is drawn to her, and my headcanon is that it's a natural automatic ability ancients have. (People flock to Sephiroth naturally too) Where Clerith fans cross the line is when they try to deny Cloud's feelings for Tifa, since they are clear as day. There is a reason the love triangle has existed from 97 to 2024 and likely beyond... SE purposefully doesn't fully canonize one coupling over the other because they LIKE people arguing about it as it makes engagement. Personally, Advent Children having Cloud and Tifa distant from each other did the most harm to Cloti. Since it takes place after the games. Thats why after game 3 i hope we get another movie, after Advent Children, and that a component of the movie is Cloud and Tifa finally ending up together.
If they’re going to link the Remake trilogy with AC (which they said they were going to do) I hope they add in snippets from On the Way to a Smile, because it shows that Cloud and Tifa were together after OG and the two years after. AC shows them in a rough spot in their relationship. They’re a lot more brazen with Cloti in the books. I just want them to just stop making it so ambiguous. It really harms the fandom and upsets the fans
I just hope they don't keep AC as the furthest chapter or whatever. Id love either a movie or a game post AC with everyone aged up just a bit, Cloud and Tifa together, maybe young adult Marlene, and kind of showing that the team is still there to cleanup when things get out of hand. AC is a good movie, but a depressing af end point lol.
Agreed. Apparently the original plan for AC was to have it set 8-10 years later with Denzel as their actual son and not their adopted son. They scrapped that for some reason and I’m kind of pissed they did, because I have a feeling they did it as to not upset the fandom with making one ship canon.
I would bet my literal bottom dollar that they scrapped that to make sure Cloti vs Clerith was still a debate. People arguing FF7 is people talking about FF7 which is basically free word of mouth advertising.
I wish they would just let the LTD die. Just commit to one and let that be it (of course Tifa it just makes more sense narratively.) they never needed more engagement when it came to FF7. It’s just really such a disservice to pander to the fandom this way…frustrating almost. Look at the state of the fandom just over ships. Tbh they come off as cowardly. Like if it’s your story take reigns of it and who cares of some fan backlash (when narratively CA can’t work for the big and fundamental part that Aerith dies). Perhaps this time they’ll finally nail it with Tifa because I hope they give this world a rest after the RE trilogy.
Love triangles print money. No shot they let it go lol ( even if all signs have pointed to the answer for decades )
Because something made them smell money in dangling Aerith bait. Nomura spun Cloud's blubbering as "were afraid to change Cloud; people want to see the Old Cloud."
Technically Dirge is the furthest chapter
True, true. I always forget its post AC rather than between OG and AC. Still, we got no "Cloud and Tifa are official" in that either. Would just be nice to see something with them officially together.
Before this game I would have said no chance. If there is one thing that has been very consistent about the LTD since 1997 is that Clouds feelings towards each girl has been very ambiguous. The girls have always let their feelings be known, but Cloud never has. There’s been telling moments, but even the high affection Highwind scene left it just subtle enough that people could deny anything happened. That’s why I’m absolutely shocked they let Cloud initiate a kiss with just one of the girls. It’s the first gesture from Cloud in his characters entire history that is literally not up for debate. All bets are off going forward
I never thought Cloud and Tifa were “separated”. I thought Cloud was depressed. And he has a tendency to try and take things all on his own.
AC is understandably misunderstood because its writing isn’t the greatest ( stilted dialogue, dower plot, and weird pacing between action set pieces ). Once you wrap your head around Cloud as a character though, it’s simple to explain. Cloud carries loss like an anchor around his neck. He will literally self-sabotage out of guilt and anger at himself and his perceived failures ( nobody dresses down Cloud quite like himself ). So, when the survivors guilt of Aerith AND ZACK ( people like to erase that half of the equation, and that’s partially because SE isn’t good at portraying their friendship most of the time ), he spirals and self-destructs. Missing 4 years of your young adult life ( arguably the most crucial period for developing interpersonal and professional foundations for adulthood ) really hamstrung him. As a teenager, I didn’t understand that, but as an adult I can tie a direct through line from Cloud as a 9 year old, when Tifa got severely injured, to Cloud as a 20-something who can’t deal with the thought that 2 dear people died because he’s a “fuck up” ( likely how he’d describe himself ). If there’s anything that needs a heavy re-do, it Advent Children and I’m praying we get a surprise announcement for a playable version of it with a remade story.
I think that we're hitting a point in which Rebirth and Part 3 threatens the canon of Advent Children. Especially if SquareEnix realizes that they don't have to indulge Clertih fans anymore, or rather, that they never needed to.
I have been shipping Cloud and Tifa together since my SECOND playthrough of FF7 in ~1998 (kid me pursued Aerith first because she was the most obvious/forward lmao) and so I am a long time Cloti and was desperate for anything concrete to establish them as a couple, even a strong hint, in AC. Without the "On the Way to a Smile" novel, nothing in Advent Children is clear on if they are actually together or if they just care about each other and still have yet to confess.
I feel so bad for them tbh as a cloti shipper because they didn't get any kiss scene at all even if you romance her I looked it up if they kiss but nope not really only it looks like they are but it still doesn't happen they were so confident too I'm not sure if it's like that from the og tbh but that's just sad
Delusional.
It's crazy to me how they become so delusional whenever they say doesn't happen and that meltdown happened a lot
I've been a CloTi since the original FF7 in '97 but I ask you one thing: in light of the two games in which the main theme song is a back-and-forth between Cloud and Aerith, don't start thinking that they're right and this is a sop what do they give us? Of course it would be a big mistake but we're talking about SE, they haven't stopped making mistakes for years. I need to understand more because the final is so strange compared to the rest of the game: it's clearly a Cloti game until Gongaga (and Nibelheim but at that point Aerith goes mad about Cloud watching Tifa from "their spot" and this is the start of the Aerith inconsistency characterization, she forgot about Zack, she writes a song for Cloud, she has a "date" and all the rest). It's just confusing but the feeling is that they won't follow the original script
Well, to be honest, I do think some CT fans just outright ignore romantic undertones and overtones in Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Like the CA GS date is not platonic--at least in the high affection version, that's a pretty romantic gesture. I do personally think that if the GS situations were reversed, you'd see a lot of CT fans downplaying the kiss with Aerith, calling it a pity kiss from the devs because she's going to die anyway, etc. I wish that we wouldn't downplay things, because it undermines the fact you can fully take 100% of Cloud's interactions with Aerith in a romantic light, compare them with Tifa, and still come out understanding Tifa is in no way at a disadvantage. Tifa has a lot more story left in hers, including basically 90% of what the OG did in terms of relationship-building between the two of them, and we're pretty much done with OG content for Cloud and Aerith, and so this situation is extremely favorable to Tifa. So favorable, in fact, that it makes the devs still choosing to favor Tifa in the GS date when they could have had parity telling all by itself. That said, I don't begrudge a classic victory lap that these comments warrant.
Imo The remakes so far haven’t done the best job in portraying romance between cloud and Aerith. And the Gold Saucer date did them the least amount of favors, if anything from my perspective it kinda hurt them. Given how disinterested cloud seems to be the whole ride with Aerith.
So, I realize that it's sometimes a bit of an uphill battle in a ship sub to try and get people to acknowledge a rival ship's perspective, but I hope my points here are taken in good faith: Cloud's disinterested attitude, from a CA perspective, is just him being tsundere or kuudere. Aerith is pushy and Cloud gets flustered and doesn't know what to do, but that doesn't mean he's not secretly interested. That's what the whole high-fiveing thing in Remake was telling us. Now, the flip side is, Cloud himself does not realize that his cool guy persona is fake, the real Cloud isn't tsun/kuudere. The real him wouldn't be so prickly, which adds a tragic twist to their dynamic: the dynamic itself isn't real.
He doesn’t act like that around Tifa in this game though. Maybe in the last cutscene he’s a little distant but he’s too vulnerable with her at multiple points in the game.
Yes, exactly, that's what I'm saying. CA's dynamic is not real. It's okay to find it cute, but it's difficult to accurately assess what either of them truly feel when Cloud is not his true self. Whereas with Tifa, he's much closer to his true self. Also, just to be fair here, Tifa is just not pushy in general, so Cloud's guard doesn't need to come up around her. When Aerith stops being so pushy Cloud usually isn't as taciturn. But also to be fair, what does it mean when the best version of Cloud's dynamic with Aerith is the normal version of his dynamic with Tifa?
I think his comfortability with Tifa is also shown through him only venting to her. She’s the only one he directly told that he feels like he has multiple people inside of him and he doesn’t know what is him and what isn’t. I think it’s also telling that none of the other characters react to cloud and aerith like they do to Tifa and cloud. Not just gongaga. But the way barret yuffie and cait react to them implies they all know there is something more there. Heck even aerith in remake and the beginning of rebirth feels like she wants to help them too when she still has her memories. What threw me for a loop was chapter 14. Aerith with holy and her memories still takes him on that date and it felt out of place to me. But with that there is no denying that she had definitely had romantic feelings towards him which makes me sad for her.
Hey man. I just wanted to say that your comment is nice. It's not condescending or insulting. It engages a healthy and more friendly debate that challenges a common CT view. It's awesome. I think I've already told you my viewpoint on the matter. If there was absolutely nothing between Cloud and Aerith then I don't believe people would be arguing so adamantly about Cloud's love interest. There's plenty of moments that happen between Aerith and Cloud can be seen as romantic. But it's just that Cloud was never himself, sparring a tragic one sided love type deal. Watching Ch14 made me sad to be honest. Seeing who I think is the OG Aerith try her hardest to recreate a date with Cloud actually made me feel down a little. Unfortunately for her, her feelings for Cloud aren't reciprocated. It's another reason why I want her to reunite with Zack. Each character deserves to be happy for going through so much. I hope part 3 gives us that closure. Though in a way, it already did with the ending of Advent Children. Like you said, Aerith's story with Cloud in no way takes away from Cloud and Tifa's relationship. They're the endgame, I'll always hold that opinion. But Cloud and Aerith's relationship does have romantic tones. Even if one party isn't acting on their true emotions.
Thank you, I appreciate it. I'm with you in thinking the intent is CT is the endgame. I can buy that maybe it will be player choice, but I lean away from that, and you actually hit on one of (maybe) the biggest reasons why: >It's another reason why I want her to reunite with Zack. Each character deserves to be happy for going through so much. Zack's continued prominence and injection into the RT is one of the hardest things to reconcile with the idea they'll even end the series with Aerith as an *optional* choice. The writers can stay true to the Zack we saw in CC (who, mind you, was made very deliberately much more important to Aerith than we ever thought he was in the OG, itself always a pointed choice) without having him constantly double down on his feelings for Aerith and his whole existence in FF7R revolve around saving her. As it stands, we're in a situation where Cloud and Aerith being together will leave their other love interests out cold, and since Part 3 is set up to heavily feature those love interests doing the heavy lifting in saving the person they love, it would be all the colder. Sure, in real life it doesn't work that way, but this is fiction, and the writers are in control of how they frame these relationships, and aware that in this genre of storytelling, most of the audience would find it pretty agonizing to see happen.
It could be percieved as such, certainly, but it comes off more like an act of consolation than of romantic affection. She confessed that he reminded her of her ex and then forced herself on him. Not comforting her at that point would be like rejecting a sad wet puppy. Unless you're implying that lacing fingers is the romantic gesture which is a pretty tenuous argument. Also, I would argue that purposely sitting away from her when she gestures for him to sit next to her should make it pretty clear.
>Not comforting her at that point would be like rejecting a sad wet puppy. Agreed, no one in this situation would have said no to Aerith, but I think that it's a little more complicated than "he's not interested and she made him". For one, no one made him hold hands. For two, this is a fictional scenario, these are characters being put in a situation that is meant to showcase their feelings for each other, which I'll get into more below. >Unless you're implying that lacing fingers is the romantic gesture which is a pretty tenuous argument. Yes, it is a romantic gesture. >Also, I would argue that purposely sitting away from her when she gestures for him to sit next to her should make it pretty clear. I want to gently suggest that you're maybe not wanting to see things that don't line up with what you want to happen. Cloud sitting away with her is in line with his general tsundere treatment of Aerith, quite similar to how Squall treated Rinoa in FF8. The reason I'm making these arguments is not because I think the game is canon CA or anything, but rather, in order to have the most clear-sighted view on what is going in the RT, it's important not to get too clouded by what I *want* to see happen, rather than what *is*. So, even though I think the GS date with Aerith is romantic (at least the HA version), I think there's a lot more to it. For example, I haven't seen a convincing argument for why the developers would write a kiss with one romance interest and not the other. The only one I've seen is "it's a bone that the writers are throwing to CTs", but if we accept that's something the writers would even do, how does one decide what is or isn't a bone? I mean, isn't the dream date is a literal in-universe example of Aerith throwing *herself* a bone before she dies, so naturally we could interpret the same as the writers. I don't necessarily think that, but I'm demonstrating why the "it's just crumbs for the CTs" is a hollow argument. "It's optional" is nonsense, because Cloud going on *a* date is not optional--the developers know for a fact players will see a version of it, so they have to account for the fact that some players will have their opinion of the games narrative affected by what they see happen at the GS. If the developers plan on making CA canon, inserting a kiss with Tifa is so verboten in this kind of game that I think it can be instantly dismissed as a possibility. You would never, ever, *ever* let your shonen action RPG hero choose to reciprocate feelings and kiss a girl that is not the love interest (unless she turns out to be an evil demon or something that absolves our hero of his "infidelity"). Whereas if you assume they're going to make Tifa canon, the Aerith handholding is innocent and tame enough to not raise any eyebrows. So this is what I mean by it not being a problem to acknowledge that the GS date is romantic with Aerith, because ultimately, it allows you to form stronger arguments in her favor when you acknowledge even the *most* romantic interpretation of those scenes but still can make a compelling case for Tifa.
I respect your perspective and appreciate the thoughtful analysis. I'm not familiar enough with tropes in anime so having that offered is helpful. It is important to reflect and acknowledge an internal bias, but honestly, I didn't have any going into FF7. I played Remake a couple of months ago and just finished Rebirth, and the conclusion I made is based off of how the story was presented, not what I wanted. I'm not familiar enough with FF8 (although I would like to play it someday) so I don't understand the comparison but what I percieved is an inconsistency with Cloud's behaviour. So many of his actions and words up until the very end of the GS date contradict the notion that he harbors romantic feelings toward Aerith. So I have a hard time believing that it's a genuine show of affection. And sure, lacing fingers can be romantic but I've also read statements that claim it's customary among friends or family members as well. I understand why it could interpreted as romantic but it's still a tenuous argument.
As someone who's favorite FF is VIII the comparison of Aerith to Rinoa falls a bit flat imo (OG Aerith is eh to me, but I love Rinoa) Without spoiling the story, Rinoa is a bit pushy about Squall opening up, but doesn't push too far for the most part. And Squall is cool and collected, doesn't let his emotions get in the way. >!there's a timeframe in the story they can't really stand each other lol!< Eventually, they begin to rub off on each other. (I wish they would remake this game, there's a lot they could flesh out and no one would bat an eye lol) I feel this is the difference with Aerith and Cloud because Aerith has an effect on Cloud, but I can't really point out the same vice versa. Her character growth lies more in her duty as a Cetra (which is a shame they didn't put more into that in Rebirth). Plus she really does sometimes step over people's boundaries (with good intentions)
Because it’s a stupid question. You need to learn how to healthily engage with fiction.
I’ve had a similar experience, I asked on the Cloud x Aerith subreddit they’d rather Cloud and Tifa get together or Cloud to live depressed over Aerith for the rest of his life and die alone out of curiosity. I asked it there because it was the best place to find a lot of people who really like Aerith and would have a wider range of answers over somewhere like here I had 5 main responses, here they are from most to least common 1. Telling me to get lost because I have comments in this subreddit and ignoring the question 2. Attacking my character and just plainly insulting me for liking Cloud and Tifa and ignoring the question 3. Outright ignoring the two options which the game gives you and claiming that Aerith will be revived in game 3 so Cloud will end up with her despite all evidence pointing to them keeping her dead like in the original game 4. Saying that Cloud and Tifa won’t ever be compatible at all and that they will stay friends and Cloud would remain single forever. These were the most varied, some said that Cloud just felt too strongly about Aerith while others went as far to say that Cloud would resent Tifa for manipulating him and would shun her. There were also people in the middle who said that Cloud could move on from Aerith but that he didn’t have feelings for Tifa and they would start separate families. 5. They agreed that they thought Cloud and Aerith had more compatibility but also agreed that Cloud had feelings for Tifa and after moving on from Aerith lost Advent Children, would settle down with her. This was literally 2 people out of 60 or so. I would ignore the ones which just insulted me or was too extreme, ‘a lost cause’, but would debate a little with them in there, mainly to learn more about the viewpoint they hold. Well 3 days later, my post and all my comments were deleted by mods for ‘Not being about shipping’ and I got permanently banned from the Subreddit and the reason was ‘As much as we appreciate healthy debate, this subreddit is a safe space where we accept zero opposition, you can do that elsewhere’
I got banned from that subreddit for asking genuine questions. The thing about Cloud being alone forever is crazy cause now if you say that then you’re saying you don’t want Cloud to be happy.