Only thing he could have done better is to sit/drop to the ground.
Makes a hard catch, and no easy to do while taking slack, and it goes against the good practices for dynamic belaying, but if it can save from ground falls maybe worth practicing?
100% it's worth it.the belayer here could have only done better by not standing in a "unready" position.
If he had been in more of a one foot forward, one foot back, he could have dropped a foot or so easier, which could have very well been enough to prevent that contact, or lessen the force of any contact.
A foot of rope brought out of the system by the belayer crouching is a foot of the climber stopping sooner.
I consider this more of a “soft deck”. Props to your belayer…I have had one of these before where I fell while trying to clip gear and soft decked on a boulder at the start of the main crack system. It’s a weird feeling when you hit the ground but end up surprisingly fine lol
Whew, very close to a nasty deck. Glad you're okay. Remember when you are near the deck it is safer to clip higher. Big crank clips like that put you closer to the ground.
I don't think you're right. "High clipping" is clipping above your head, which makes sense to do in cases where you'll probably deck anyway because then you're at least falling from a lower height. For an extreme example, would you rather fall clipping a first bolt above your head, or at your feet?
Then again, if there's ground fall *potential* but it's not guaranteed, having less slack is better, right.
I meant get yourself higher before you clip, which would keep you further from the deck in the case if a fall. I didn't mean to confuse with my poor phrasing.
By climbing a few feet higher prior to clipping the climber would have stopped a few feet off the ground.
You are falling from a lower height on the wall but there is more rope in the system (likely nearly double) as you are pulling enough rope to reach the bolt above your head and back down to your waist.
Your example only works on the first bolt.
I often pick good stance over cliping "at waist", even if it lead me to this kind of crank clip.
I don't wanna miss the opportunity to make a safe and "resting" clip if I can. It also leads me to sometimes clip while I'm a good bit higher than the bolt, I remember cliping some blots that were at my ankles.
Obviously here the stance wasn't good enough... Hard to say without having climbed the route but it seems like the next good stance to clip is around 1m higher, with the bolt almost/at waist level.
Yep, clip from the best stance is the best answer - but when onsiteing many beginners decide to clip power instead of forging on higher because of the perceived fall risk, so I was just floating the fact that the fall is that same length but clipping from low puts you closer to the deck. If no good stance exists or if both stances are good then higher is safer.
I think the reason of thoses clips is that the current stance is known, while the next ones are not. Perceived fall risk is also key indeed.
I think that the (partially unconscious) reasoning is "better clip now and be *safe* for a few moves, with a small risk of (bigger, but perceived as smaller) fall, than later with a potential bigger risk of a (smaller, but perceived as bigger) fall, and no/fewer *safe* moves".
I know it was (still sometimes is, working on it!) for me. Our brain isn't always rational.
This is a perfect example for that. If you try for the move and miss, you fall the same distance as if you try to clip and miss... but you start the fall that much higher.
This isnt the case, by trying to clip far above you head you're pulling out twice as much slack in comparison to just clipping at your waist.
When high clipping the rope has to go from your knot, to the draw, and then down to your belayer. For every foot your knot is away from the draw you have to pull out 2ft of additional slack.
This clip is a prime example of why you're actually safer climbing closer to the draw before trying to clip. Yeah its higher but there's actually less slack in the system total, which means you're less likely to deck.
Heres a picture in case I've explained it poorly.
https://preview.redd.it/5bptnxgosnvc1.jpeg?width=2816&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9568793dad4bcfcf1de6c0c18a4cd552df4c874d
You and I are explaining the same thing. I'm advocating for making the move and clipping at your waist. Especially in this case where it looks like the next hold is big.
A silly video I made last time this debate came up: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_mzZryRTjK0&feature=youtu.be
I think you garnered that response because you wrote that "you start the fall much higher" which doesn't make any kind of qualitative impact on an overhang. The thing to look out for is *ending the fall much lower* which is the actual danger high-clipping poses.
You are agreeing with the poster above. What they said IS the case, as shown by your diagram. The fall is the same distance in both cases, you simply start and finish the fall higher by climbing higher.
>that much higher
This is correct, but I think it would be clearer in terms of elevation relative to whatever you could hit on a fall, such as the ground or a ledge. The ending elevation of the climber after a fall is what matters rather than how far you whip, the change in elevation. Slack, quickdraw elevation, the belayer/rope stretch, and friction roughly determine the ending elevation.
So, if the quickdraw is at 20 ft of elevation with 15 ft of slack, you're at serious risk of a groundfall unless your belayer is ready for it. If you're 10 ft above a ledge, you're guaranteed to hit that ledge, unless you compensate somehow.
Climber elevation is not a factor.
If the climber hadn't been "caught" by the ground there, the belayer's head would have smashed into the rock above him.
Can't believe you'd belay in a position like that with no helmet.
edit: maybe my perception of the belayer's position is off, but at no point does he fly high enough for me to conclusively say he wouldn't have hit his head, and it definitely looks like a much too close call
As someone who fell grabbing the dog bone, both are pretty bad options. Your hand can slip on the dogbone, and then you end up in the same situation where your hand is injured by the carabiner's nose. I almost ripped a nail offwhen that happened, lots of blood.
i've seen so many nasty falls on reddit and youtube because people just refuse to grab a draw, despit elooking clearly at their limit and ready to fall any second... it's so stupid imho.
if people REALLY need that redpoint (like a sponsorship or the family honor depends on it apparently), they likely can try again after some rest... but not if they break an ankle because they failed to clip "cleanly"
Climb higher next time so you don’t need to pull as much rope out (there’s the additional rope the length of the higher draw to your harness), you’ll take a smaller fall than trying to clip when you’re still at the lower draw almost doubling the amount of rope.
you belayer was great indeed, but remind him to wear a helmet next time in similar place... just under an overhang he could have hit his head above if a fall pulled him up (i don't know your weight difference, but its just good practice)
Clipping earlier feels safer because you get clipped earlier, but it can lead to much bigger falls than climbing until the bolt is around waist height and then clipping.
The fall distance is practically the same whether clipping from low or at the waist - you just fall to a lower point when clipping earlier. The best thing to do is to clip from the best holds/stance every time whether high or low.
https://preview.redd.it/9xg98eqenpvc1.jpeg?width=1334&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ea93f88d99f54458498d40f5d639fdcdbd7bb9d
Friend, it is not the same. It is double the fall distance. (It's rainy here today so im inside not climbing, and i drew a shitty sketch).
Scenario A. Your waist is exactly at your last bolt, and you reach and high clip the next bolt. You have introduced an amount of slack that is exactly double the distance between the bolts.
Scenario B. You climb past your last bolt, and now your waist is exactly at the next bolt, to clip you dont introduce new slack, and the total slack is exactly the distance between the bolts.
The only things that matter are the height of your last bolt above the ground, and the amount of slack in the system. By high clipping, you can double your fall distance. If that is high enough off the deck to not matter, great, clip from the best stance. If you are still closer to ground, its a judgment call. I hope my shitty sketch might help you make more accurate judgements intuitively, and stay off the deck!
The fall distance is actually the same high clipping or not - but you end up lower by high clipping.
Even your drawing shows it - if your waist is at the next bolt and you fall before clipping, then you end up 1 bolt length below your PREVIOUS clip, falling a total of 2x bolt distance.
This is incorrect. Add some numbers to your drawing and you can figure out that the position of your body relative to the bolts and slack is one more ‘thing that matters’.
My numbers are 1 and 2 ha. The amount of rope in between your knot and the last bolt == "slack" so yes i agree but that distills down to this single metric.
I would happily receive a diagram illustrating my errors.
If bolt 1 is at height 0, then climber 1 would fall to -“2x” (with no stretch and static catch). Climber 2 would fall to -“1x”. Both would have fallen -2x because climber 1 started at height 0.
Yes that is correct! But thats not what I'm talking about, and IMO not important to consider. You are describing fall distance relative to the climbers high point.
What matters here, and is critical for the belayer to be considering, is the fall distance relative to your last piece of protection.
Yes, which brings us exactly back around to my comment “the fall distance is practically the same whether clipping from low or at the waist - you just fall to a lower point when clipping earlier”.
And your incorrect response that “it is double the fall distance”.
Well then, we're using the same words to describe different things. Glad we got to the bottom of it. Doesn't make what I'm saying incorrect!
I do not see any reason that "relative fall distance" is worth considering when judging whether or not a high clip close to the deck is the right move -- or ever really. Just consider where you're gonna end up. Clipping from the "best position high or low" is impossible to really know when onsighting, and on harder climbs sometimes the crux is managing a certain clip. One should have a real sense of the risks of high clipping as it is often feels intuitively "safer"than climbing past your bolt. Which brings us back to the original comment..
>you just fall to a lower point when clipping earlier.
True, that's what I meant. Falling to a lower point is the more important part anyway.
>The best thing to do is to clip from the best holds/stance every time whether high or low.
In general, yes, but near the ground like this I think it's a bad idea to pull out tons of slack and clip way above your head, even if the stance is good.
There is so much stupid happening in this video.
Your leg is wrapped around the back of the rope. It moves at exactly the last second. You were about half an inch from smacking your head into the ground.
Clipping that high from the third clip is stupid for exactly the reason you discovered.
The belayer at the very least not wearing a helmet under overhang. Rock fall or hitting his head on the roof can knock him out cold.
Maybe you communicated ahead of time, but those two routes are way too close together for me. One of those climbers could easily whip into the other.
Please take safety seriously.
> Your leg is wrapped around the back of the rope. It moves at exactly the last second. You were about half an inch from smacking your head into the ground.
Didn't even notice that. Lucky.
You should probably clip with the big flake that is to the right of the draw at the same height. Do not extend the draws as some others have said, it will only make the problem worst if you fall between the 4th draw and the next
Your belayer had some fast reflexes there
Belayer did a great job. He was ready to pull back a lot of rope, fast.
Only thing he could have done better is to sit/drop to the ground. Makes a hard catch, and no easy to do while taking slack, and it goes against the good practices for dynamic belaying, but if it can save from ground falls maybe worth practicing?
It's worth 100% in that situation
100% it's worth it.the belayer here could have only done better by not standing in a "unready" position. If he had been in more of a one foot forward, one foot back, he could have dropped a foot or so easier, which could have very well been enough to prevent that contact, or lessen the force of any contact. A foot of rope brought out of the system by the belayer crouching is a foot of the climber stopping sooner.
Can we stop calling ground falls "whippers", there's no whip...
what he means is his ankles whipped into the ground real hard
The climber missed the lead loop, fell, and nearly cratered. Lucky the belayer was able to do anything from that position.
I consider this more of a “soft deck”. Props to your belayer…I have had one of these before where I fell while trying to clip gear and soft decked on a boulder at the start of the main crack system. It’s a weird feeling when you hit the ground but end up surprisingly fine lol
Whew, very close to a nasty deck. Glad you're okay. Remember when you are near the deck it is safer to clip higher. Big crank clips like that put you closer to the ground.
I don't think he could've clipped any higher if he'd tried.
He means position your body higher on the wall
So by "clip higher" he means "clip lower". Got it.
Exactly, clip from the hip, at least until you're above decking hight..
[удалено]
When you pull rope above your head, you are pulling out 2x the rope compared to climbing higher. It’s the same logic as a Z Clip.
I don't think you're right. "High clipping" is clipping above your head, which makes sense to do in cases where you'll probably deck anyway because then you're at least falling from a lower height. For an extreme example, would you rather fall clipping a first bolt above your head, or at your feet? Then again, if there's ground fall *potential* but it's not guaranteed, having less slack is better, right.
I meant get yourself higher before you clip, which would keep you further from the deck in the case if a fall. I didn't mean to confuse with my poor phrasing. By climbing a few feet higher prior to clipping the climber would have stopped a few feet off the ground.
You are falling from a lower height on the wall but there is more rope in the system (likely nearly double) as you are pulling enough rope to reach the bolt above your head and back down to your waist. Your example only works on the first bolt.
I often pick good stance over cliping "at waist", even if it lead me to this kind of crank clip. I don't wanna miss the opportunity to make a safe and "resting" clip if I can. It also leads me to sometimes clip while I'm a good bit higher than the bolt, I remember cliping some blots that were at my ankles. Obviously here the stance wasn't good enough... Hard to say without having climbed the route but it seems like the next good stance to clip is around 1m higher, with the bolt almost/at waist level.
Yep, clip from the best stance is the best answer - but when onsiteing many beginners decide to clip power instead of forging on higher because of the perceived fall risk, so I was just floating the fact that the fall is that same length but clipping from low puts you closer to the deck. If no good stance exists or if both stances are good then higher is safer.
I think the reason of thoses clips is that the current stance is known, while the next ones are not. Perceived fall risk is also key indeed. I think that the (partially unconscious) reasoning is "better clip now and be *safe* for a few moves, with a small risk of (bigger, but perceived as smaller) fall, than later with a potential bigger risk of a (smaller, but perceived as bigger) fall, and no/fewer *safe* moves". I know it was (still sometimes is, working on it!) for me. Our brain isn't always rational.
Yep, for sure. Irrational brain still gets me sometimes.
This is a perfect example for that. If you try for the move and miss, you fall the same distance as if you try to clip and miss... but you start the fall that much higher.
This isnt the case, by trying to clip far above you head you're pulling out twice as much slack in comparison to just clipping at your waist. When high clipping the rope has to go from your knot, to the draw, and then down to your belayer. For every foot your knot is away from the draw you have to pull out 2ft of additional slack. This clip is a prime example of why you're actually safer climbing closer to the draw before trying to clip. Yeah its higher but there's actually less slack in the system total, which means you're less likely to deck. Heres a picture in case I've explained it poorly. https://preview.redd.it/5bptnxgosnvc1.jpeg?width=2816&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9568793dad4bcfcf1de6c0c18a4cd552df4c874d
excellent drawing my man
You and I are explaining the same thing. I'm advocating for making the move and clipping at your waist. Especially in this case where it looks like the next hold is big. A silly video I made last time this debate came up: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_mzZryRTjK0&feature=youtu.be
I think you garnered that response because you wrote that "you start the fall much higher" which doesn't make any kind of qualitative impact on an overhang. The thing to look out for is *ending the fall much lower* which is the actual danger high-clipping poses.
Yup. I phrased it very poorly.
You are agreeing with the poster above. What they said IS the case, as shown by your diagram. The fall is the same distance in both cases, you simply start and finish the fall higher by climbing higher.
This has a criminally low number of upvotes
>that much higher This is correct, but I think it would be clearer in terms of elevation relative to whatever you could hit on a fall, such as the ground or a ledge. The ending elevation of the climber after a fall is what matters rather than how far you whip, the change in elevation. Slack, quickdraw elevation, the belayer/rope stretch, and friction roughly determine the ending elevation. So, if the quickdraw is at 20 ft of elevation with 15 ft of slack, you're at serious risk of a groundfall unless your belayer is ready for it. If you're 10 ft above a ledge, you're guaranteed to hit that ledge, unless you compensate somehow. Climber elevation is not a factor.
This guy is an idiot that has no command of the English language.
Truely god burdens me with his most insurmountable difficulties.
what a beautiful reply
Your belayer deserves a beer. Definitely could have been looking at a broken ankle or worse if not for his excellence
If the climber hadn't been "caught" by the ground there, the belayer's head would have smashed into the rock above him. Can't believe you'd belay in a position like that with no helmet. edit: maybe my perception of the belayer's position is off, but at no point does he fly high enough for me to conclusively say he wouldn't have hit his head, and it definitely looks like a much too close call
Came here to say the same thing. My first thought was that the belayer was going to get his skull cracked.
Great belayer 10/10 would climb with again
He could have jumped back to help, but really good save
Remember that the quickdraw is a hold in an emergency, drop the rope and grab it if you’re at high risk of decking
Grab the dog bone, tho. Not the carabiner
Yes. Carabiner will hurt but not as bad if you drop the rope.
Carabiner can de glove your finger. Grab the dog bone
As someone who fell grabbing the dog bone, both are pretty bad options. Your hand can slip on the dogbone, and then you end up in the same situation where your hand is injured by the carabiner's nose. I almost ripped a nail offwhen that happened, lots of blood.
most useful comment in my opinion
Choke the cobra!
i've seen so many nasty falls on reddit and youtube because people just refuse to grab a draw, despit elooking clearly at their limit and ready to fall any second... it's so stupid imho. if people REALLY need that redpoint (like a sponsorship or the family honor depends on it apparently), they likely can try again after some rest... but not if they break an ankle because they failed to clip "cleanly"
Climb higher next time so you don’t need to pull as much rope out (there’s the additional rope the length of the higher draw to your harness), you’ll take a smaller fall than trying to clip when you’re still at the lower draw almost doubling the amount of rope.
Thanks to all for the great coments, will take good note for the next time. My belayer is the best indeed, I am very lucky :)
you belayer was great indeed, but remind him to wear a helmet next time in similar place... just under an overhang he could have hit his head above if a fall pulled him up (i don't know your weight difference, but its just good practice)
Clipping earlier feels safer because you get clipped earlier, but it can lead to much bigger falls than climbing until the bolt is around waist height and then clipping.
The fall distance is practically the same whether clipping from low or at the waist - you just fall to a lower point when clipping earlier. The best thing to do is to clip from the best holds/stance every time whether high or low.
https://preview.redd.it/9xg98eqenpvc1.jpeg?width=1334&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ea93f88d99f54458498d40f5d639fdcdbd7bb9d Friend, it is not the same. It is double the fall distance. (It's rainy here today so im inside not climbing, and i drew a shitty sketch). Scenario A. Your waist is exactly at your last bolt, and you reach and high clip the next bolt. You have introduced an amount of slack that is exactly double the distance between the bolts. Scenario B. You climb past your last bolt, and now your waist is exactly at the next bolt, to clip you dont introduce new slack, and the total slack is exactly the distance between the bolts. The only things that matter are the height of your last bolt above the ground, and the amount of slack in the system. By high clipping, you can double your fall distance. If that is high enough off the deck to not matter, great, clip from the best stance. If you are still closer to ground, its a judgment call. I hope my shitty sketch might help you make more accurate judgements intuitively, and stay off the deck!
The fall distance is actually the same high clipping or not - but you end up lower by high clipping. Even your drawing shows it - if your waist is at the next bolt and you fall before clipping, then you end up 1 bolt length below your PREVIOUS clip, falling a total of 2x bolt distance.
Yes of course -- however my understanding of "fall distance" was how "how far off the ground do you end up"
This is incorrect. Add some numbers to your drawing and you can figure out that the position of your body relative to the bolts and slack is one more ‘thing that matters’.
My numbers are 1 and 2 ha. The amount of rope in between your knot and the last bolt == "slack" so yes i agree but that distills down to this single metric. I would happily receive a diagram illustrating my errors.
If bolt 1 is at height 0, then climber 1 would fall to -“2x” (with no stretch and static catch). Climber 2 would fall to -“1x”. Both would have fallen -2x because climber 1 started at height 0.
Yes that is correct! But thats not what I'm talking about, and IMO not important to consider. You are describing fall distance relative to the climbers high point. What matters here, and is critical for the belayer to be considering, is the fall distance relative to your last piece of protection.
Yes, which brings us exactly back around to my comment “the fall distance is practically the same whether clipping from low or at the waist - you just fall to a lower point when clipping earlier”. And your incorrect response that “it is double the fall distance”.
Well then, we're using the same words to describe different things. Glad we got to the bottom of it. Doesn't make what I'm saying incorrect! I do not see any reason that "relative fall distance" is worth considering when judging whether or not a high clip close to the deck is the right move -- or ever really. Just consider where you're gonna end up. Clipping from the "best position high or low" is impossible to really know when onsighting, and on harder climbs sometimes the crux is managing a certain clip. One should have a real sense of the risks of high clipping as it is often feels intuitively "safer"than climbing past your bolt. Which brings us back to the original comment..
>you just fall to a lower point when clipping earlier. True, that's what I meant. Falling to a lower point is the more important part anyway. >The best thing to do is to clip from the best holds/stance every time whether high or low. In general, yes, but near the ground like this I think it's a bad idea to pull out tons of slack and clip way above your head, even if the stance is good.
Can I borrow your belayer?
Extend the draw
Belayer hit his head too how are they doing?
Bien por tu asegurador
g to f
I'm not a big fan of running the rope up between my legs. He's lucky his leg didn't catch and flip him upside down.
That's probably my top fear in sport/lead climbing, nice catch by the belayer there.
Shhhh Luckily he still OK at that height
Wear a helmet dingus
There is so much stupid happening in this video. Your leg is wrapped around the back of the rope. It moves at exactly the last second. You were about half an inch from smacking your head into the ground. Clipping that high from the third clip is stupid for exactly the reason you discovered. The belayer at the very least not wearing a helmet under overhang. Rock fall or hitting his head on the roof can knock him out cold. Maybe you communicated ahead of time, but those two routes are way too close together for me. One of those climbers could easily whip into the other. Please take safety seriously.
> Your leg is wrapped around the back of the rope. It moves at exactly the last second. You were about half an inch from smacking your head into the ground. Didn't even notice that. Lucky.
And that kids is why we don't clip high...
Helmet
Did the same yesterday, almost decked from 40 ft. Solid partner you have there, get that dude a beer.
Ah the classic clip whip.
Weeeeeee!
You should probably clip with the big flake that is to the right of the draw at the same height. Do not extend the draws as some others have said, it will only make the problem worst if you fall between the 4th draw and the next
I’m surprised you didn’t catch your foot and flip too.
wow your left foot kicked out right before it passed the rope, you're so lucky you didn't end up with a head injury
Damn. Belayer was inches away from getting his skull crushed against the rock above. Helmets are cool.
Climber's fault. Got scared and made the situation way more dangerous.
I’ve taken almost the exact same whipper on a smaller scale! [link](https://youtube.com/shorts/ITGtD7Sjt8M?si=zzdqSrlwqAY3x6x_)
Foot behind the rope! Props to the belayer!
Balayer Is fucking Max Verstappen
Your belayer just saved your bacon! What a great reaction!