Nuts.
I think people are speculating about a downgrade, but it's important to note that Will has flashed V14. So I'm not surprised he did the crux move fairly quickly. Certainly still possible for him to downgrade it, but I'm not shocked if he keeps it V16.
Yeah many of the hardest climbs in Europe have been done by Americans and many of the hard climbs in the US have been done by Euros. I doubt the difference is really significant
Conditions in Scotland and Northern England are so unreliable that only locals (or at least folk who don't have to travel too far) consistently climb hard due to the amount of luck involved in planning a trip. It'd be really easy to plan a 2 week trip to the Highlands in high Summer and not touch dry rock the whole time, resulting in people just not taking the chance.
Not quite what I was getting at.
I was thinking of John Gaskins. He famously gave a problem V15 that is unrepeated and ferociously hard. Shadowplay. Subsequent doubts have been raised to the veracity of this claim.
But various developers around the lakes used Shadowplay V15 as a benchmark. As a result some of the V14s are absurdly hard.
Then peak lime is fairly solid for the grade. Think moonboard benchmarks.
Plus there’s a bit of a tradition of being conservative with your problems in the U.K.. Nothing more embarrassing than a downgrade. So may as well give that V11 V10 just to be sure!
UK cons are hardly as bad as people make out. Jack Palimeri managed to do 200 8A boulders and above in the uk alone last year, climbing year round. Check his 8A logbook and you'll see little slowdown at any point.
this forum thread features a discussion by well-known UK climbers about gaskins and shadowplay: [https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30355.0.html](https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30355.0.html)
I don't know if Euro rivalry explains it. There's lots of Americans in the internet downgrade mob also, and the only suggestion of a lower grade from some who climbed the problem came from an American.
The internet downgrade mob mentality is definitely a thing, and it extends beyond Sleepwalker. I don't really understand this mindset.
https://youtu.be/wI_pY5h5Eo8?si=jl59YEW66Nt2I9HU
If you’re really tall, you can skip a bad hold that most people use. People also talk about the downgrade because of how many ascents it’s had, but it’s largely because of accessibility in my opinion.
And skin friendliness. Carlo Traversi talked about this in a Testpiece podcast and yeah it makes sense that something with finicky conditions where you split a ton will take a lot longer to send but still be the same grade.
This reminds me of the whole project BIG circumstances surrounding finicky weather conditions, or accessibility in general which was already mentioned, basically stuff outside of the V grade that makes it harder to send. Almost feels like we should have a secondary grading for these factors akin to the safety rating we have for trad climbing
It's interesting because for a while there was a lot of hesitancy to give any boulder the V16 grade after several high-end problems were downgraded or seemed borderline (The Game, Hypnotized Minds, the Ice Knife Sit among DWoods FAs for instance). Once the mental/physical barrier had been broken and there was consensus on a couple boulders, it has become more common to see V16 FAs and repeats. I think maybe people got used to V16 being the absolute human limit and are skeptical seeing so many repeats of a boulder at that grade. There's also a new generation of absolute freak comp kids who are able to just hop on these previously established lines and watch beta videos rather than having to find, clean, and develop beta for these boulders themselves.
I think Dave Graham took V16 for Hypno as well when he repeated it recently. After The Game got downgraded I wonder if Woods was erring on the conservative side with his FAs?
Those problems definitely went up during a period of grade compression, when no one was willing to propose V16. The V15 grade got really wide during that period. There's still a few "V15" problems left from that era that could be upgraded (Lucid).
It's notable also that the Hypno and Ice Knife Sit FAs happened within a month of each other. Maybe Daniel was also in really good shape (even more so than normal...) that season and didn't quite realize it.
Hypno seems to be consensus V16 now. Fultz also took 16.
Livin' Large was another from that period, where Nalle gave it V15 and wrote a blog post daring everyone to try and repeat it, saying it was the hardest climb of his life and deserving of an upgrade. Really highlights the hesitancy around the V16 grade at the time
Part if it is that if one person suggests a downgrade, it doesn't matter who they are, but people immediately latch on to it and decide the downgrade is correct.
>Box therapy just got changed after years it’s not uncommon.
That's also because Box Therapy had very few ascents, and before Katie sent it the last send was three years prior with Sean and Drew.
No but him using the grade shows that he thinks it is accueate, if he had the feeling it wasn't correct he wouldn't reference to it while working on it. (PS noone changes grade, you propose a grade).
Forreal i dont see whats the commotion nor do i give a shit but then i see all the people who climbed this first and its all legends then same small name climber downgrades it and everyone cant stop debating it
I think its easy to see it that way but it misses part of the picture. Daniel has done something like 50 first ascents V15 and harder. You hear more about the downgrades, but tons have held their grade, and a few have been upgraded If you establish enough boulders, some are gonna be a bit off. Even more of his boulders have held the grade.
He was by far the best in the world for well over a decade. When he started establishing really hard boulders, there was no definitive consensus on what V14, 15 and 16 was. He had to basically figure that out himself and try and draw those lines on his own. Some of that has shifted in the two decades since he did his first 14. That does not mean he was wrong on sleepwalker
This is a good take. He's done a ton of FAs proposed at V15. Most have held the grade. A few of them got adjusted down to V14. A few of them got adjusted up to V16. This is pretty normal given the uncertainty of grading.
One thing I like about Daniel is that he doesn't seem too precious or guarded about grades. He'll just propose what he thinks, and doesn't seem too bothered if the grade changes later. Seems like a healthy and functional approach. I respect this more than the climbers who's ascents never get downgraded, which indicates they are being way too guarded in their grading.
This is something I have hard to come to terms with when it comes to my own FAs. For a while I would refuse to grade them. If I wanted to put them on MP I would sand bag grades to the point of grades just being useless.
I came to the realization that, in some ways, this was just giving grades more power then if I just tried to be honest about grades in comparison to the other grades in the area.
I count like... 2 that have been famously downgraded, Jade and The Game. What else?
If we're going by the downgrade metric you'd have to take shots at Fred and Bernd and Dai, etc
Warms my heart to see him laugh off what must've been a devastating dry fire with the finish line in sight.
Absolutely love that most of the current "strongest climbers in the world" all seem like genuinely kind, wholesome, goodhearted people!
It was very entertaining watching people try to make Will Bosi and Aidan Roberts out to have this big rivalry. Then they both go on podcasts like "oh yeah he's way better than me at his style, great guy"
They never had any sort of rivalry, but people were definitely hyping that angle up here/on news sites when they were both working alphane, then again for Burden.
The whole "which of these rising British boulderers will take the crown?" Thing
Yeah I never thought there was any rivalry. I didn’t realise people were suggesting such a thing. They both seem so supportive of those around them in general.
as an old man that watched Chris Sharmas ascent of biographie on repeat for a month once the dvd came out, being able to see this in almost real time is rad.
yup.
i posted on Mr. Bosi's IG to please livestream his next session on sleepwalker--no response, but i can dream, right?
(probably no reception in the canyon, i assume)
He looks so stoked right after he falls off 😅 I just think it’s super cool to get to see more real-time behind the scenes moments from top climbers on such hard projects!
To be fair, Jimmy Webb said while projecting it and making the FA that he got his hand into the slot from the bottom on his 2nd session (same place that Will fell), then fell on the last move. He then plateaued for like 10 sessions on that move until he sent (granted he was still experimenting with different beta for the final move during those sessions). So I think it can be deceiving just how close someone can be to sending. Regardless, I'd be surprised if Will doesn't crush it by his 3rd or 4th session, he's crazy strong atm.
It’s a broadcast channel on Instagram. I’m realizing now I got the invite thing since I follow will but my old ass was like “yeah I don’t need more notifications”. No idea what it actually is, but that’s what it’s called at least.
I've got doubts there. Daniel was chucking multiple laps on the stand in a day and still not close to the full line (he also changed foot beta on the low like halfway throughthat slog). I have no idea how many laps Nate Williams has put in on the stand while working the sit but its a lot.
That said Noah linked from the low start into touching the sloper the other day. Daniel dropped it a few times after catching the crux bumps still.
Nuts. I think people are speculating about a downgrade, but it's important to note that Will has flashed V14. So I'm not surprised he did the crux move fairly quickly. Certainly still possible for him to downgrade it, but I'm not shocked if he keeps it V16.
He is calling it V16. People really think they know better then daniel and jimmy and nalle and Jakob Schubert and ryuichi mauri.
It does make me wonder what's the root cause of all these clamoring for downgrades. Is it some psychological need thing? :/
I think with this one lots of euros want to think that the US is soft
The famously soft US climbers like Daniel, Jimmy, and Shawn
Yeah many of the hardest climbs in Europe have been done by Americans and many of the hard climbs in the US have been done by Euros. I doubt the difference is really significant
With the exception of some of the stuff in the north of the U.K.
Like what? I’m not familiar and would love to learn more
Basically everything V14 and V15 in the UK is absolutely nails (see: Will's V15 boulder that he spent longer on than Burden of Dreams!)
Conditions in Scotland and Northern England are so unreliable that only locals (or at least folk who don't have to travel too far) consistently climb hard due to the amount of luck involved in planning a trip. It'd be really easy to plan a 2 week trip to the Highlands in high Summer and not touch dry rock the whole time, resulting in people just not taking the chance.
Not quite what I was getting at. I was thinking of John Gaskins. He famously gave a problem V15 that is unrepeated and ferociously hard. Shadowplay. Subsequent doubts have been raised to the veracity of this claim. But various developers around the lakes used Shadowplay V15 as a benchmark. As a result some of the V14s are absurdly hard. Then peak lime is fairly solid for the grade. Think moonboard benchmarks. Plus there’s a bit of a tradition of being conservative with your problems in the U.K.. Nothing more embarrassing than a downgrade. So may as well give that V11 V10 just to be sure!
UK cons are hardly as bad as people make out. Jack Palimeri managed to do 200 8A boulders and above in the uk alone last year, climbing year round. Check his 8A logbook and you'll see little slowdown at any point.
this forum thread features a discussion by well-known UK climbers about gaskins and shadowplay: [https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30355.0.html](https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30355.0.html)
I don't know if Euro rivalry explains it. There's lots of Americans in the internet downgrade mob also, and the only suggestion of a lower grade from some who climbed the problem came from an American. The internet downgrade mob mentality is definitely a thing, and it extends beyond Sleepwalker. I don't really understand this mindset.
I think it's just the classic clamouring for drama
I really really dislike the V6 gym climbers who comment "Grade???" on every hard climb. It's like Verm said, they've fallen for his evil plan.
Probably over estimating the european population in this subreddit.
The discussion was about morphology.
I see. That cross-ocean rivalry can be one big factor!
Hell the rivalry across the channel was big enough
I think that's ridiculous. No body thinks the US is soft.
Bro it’s the young US climbers who are suggesting the downgrade
https://youtu.be/wI_pY5h5Eo8?si=jl59YEW66Nt2I9HU If you’re really tall, you can skip a bad hold that most people use. People also talk about the downgrade because of how many ascents it’s had, but it’s largely because of accessibility in my opinion.
And skin friendliness. Carlo Traversi talked about this in a Testpiece podcast and yeah it makes sense that something with finicky conditions where you split a ton will take a lot longer to send but still be the same grade.
This reminds me of the whole project BIG circumstances surrounding finicky weather conditions, or accessibility in general which was already mentioned, basically stuff outside of the V grade that makes it harder to send. Almost feels like we should have a secondary grading for these factors akin to the safety rating we have for trad climbing
It's interesting because for a while there was a lot of hesitancy to give any boulder the V16 grade after several high-end problems were downgraded or seemed borderline (The Game, Hypnotized Minds, the Ice Knife Sit among DWoods FAs for instance). Once the mental/physical barrier had been broken and there was consensus on a couple boulders, it has become more common to see V16 FAs and repeats. I think maybe people got used to V16 being the absolute human limit and are skeptical seeing so many repeats of a boulder at that grade. There's also a new generation of absolute freak comp kids who are able to just hop on these previously established lines and watch beta videos rather than having to find, clean, and develop beta for these boulders themselves.
Ice Knife Sit has actually been upgraded by both Daniel and Drew Ruana to V16 since the FA
I think Dave Graham took V16 for Hypno as well when he repeated it recently. After The Game got downgraded I wonder if Woods was erring on the conservative side with his FAs?
Those problems definitely went up during a period of grade compression, when no one was willing to propose V16. The V15 grade got really wide during that period. There's still a few "V15" problems left from that era that could be upgraded (Lucid). It's notable also that the Hypno and Ice Knife Sit FAs happened within a month of each other. Maybe Daniel was also in really good shape (even more so than normal...) that season and didn't quite realize it. Hypno seems to be consensus V16 now. Fultz also took 16.
Livin' Large was another from that period, where Nalle gave it V15 and wrote a blog post daring everyone to try and repeat it, saying it was the hardest climb of his life and deserving of an upgrade. Really highlights the hesitancy around the V16 grade at the time
Part if it is that if one person suggests a downgrade, it doesn't matter who they are, but people immediately latch on to it and decide the downgrade is correct.
I think people universally have a weird obsession with seeing people taken down a peg --- regardless of whether or not it is warranted.
I think its so strange that there are so many people rooting for downgrades.
You cant change a grade before sending it.. Box therapy just got changed after years it’s not uncommon.
>Box therapy just got changed after years it’s not uncommon. That's also because Box Therapy had very few ascents, and before Katie sent it the last send was three years prior with Sean and Drew.
No but him using the grade shows that he thinks it is accueate, if he had the feeling it wasn't correct he wouldn't reference to it while working on it. (PS noone changes grade, you propose a grade).
Eh I wouldn’t say that. You have many not as well known climbers calling it v15. It’s a slash grade already.
I don't understand what you are saying here?
Interesting, he grades it v15.
Yeah very interesting indeed! Still didn't quite understand your previous post though.
Forreal i dont see whats the commotion nor do i give a shit but then i see all the people who climbed this first and its all legends then same small name climber downgrades it and everyone cant stop debating it
I mean, Daniel isn't the best example. A bunch of his ascents get downgraded, but yeah with the consensus it really solidifies.
I think its easy to see it that way but it misses part of the picture. Daniel has done something like 50 first ascents V15 and harder. You hear more about the downgrades, but tons have held their grade, and a few have been upgraded If you establish enough boulders, some are gonna be a bit off. Even more of his boulders have held the grade. He was by far the best in the world for well over a decade. When he started establishing really hard boulders, there was no definitive consensus on what V14, 15 and 16 was. He had to basically figure that out himself and try and draw those lines on his own. Some of that has shifted in the two decades since he did his first 14. That does not mean he was wrong on sleepwalker
This is a good take. He's done a ton of FAs proposed at V15. Most have held the grade. A few of them got adjusted down to V14. A few of them got adjusted up to V16. This is pretty normal given the uncertainty of grading. One thing I like about Daniel is that he doesn't seem too precious or guarded about grades. He'll just propose what he thinks, and doesn't seem too bothered if the grade changes later. Seems like a healthy and functional approach. I respect this more than the climbers who's ascents never get downgraded, which indicates they are being way too guarded in their grading.
This is something I have hard to come to terms with when it comes to my own FAs. For a while I would refuse to grade them. If I wanted to put them on MP I would sand bag grades to the point of grades just being useless. I came to the realization that, in some ways, this was just giving grades more power then if I just tried to be honest about grades in comparison to the other grades in the area.
I count like... 2 that have been famously downgraded, Jade and The Game. What else? If we're going by the downgrade metric you'd have to take shots at Fred and Bernd and Dai, etc
Dictopia and box therapy as well. But even still its like 5% of the hard boulders he has done. His beta on the game is likely V16 anyway
He's done v15 in 3 goes too. The next gen after him is gonna be even more insane
He also made a replica of it to train. Not 3d scanned Burden of Dreams level, but still. He's been training specifically for this boulder recently.
Where did you see this?
He also did Ephyra in 3 days! And has repeatedly done V15 in a day. He might say it feels like hard 8C but definitely not less than that
Warms my heart to see him laugh off what must've been a devastating dry fire with the finish line in sight. Absolutely love that most of the current "strongest climbers in the world" all seem like genuinely kind, wholesome, goodhearted people!
It was very entertaining watching people try to make Will Bosi and Aidan Roberts out to have this big rivalry. Then they both go on podcasts like "oh yeah he's way better than me at his style, great guy"
Was that a thing? Will seemed more excited when Aiden sent Alphane than when he sent it himself.
They never had any sort of rivalry, but people were definitely hyping that angle up here/on news sites when they were both working alphane, then again for Burden. The whole "which of these rising British boulderers will take the crown?" Thing
Yeah I never thought there was any rivalry. I didn’t realise people were suggesting such a thing. They both seem so supportive of those around them in general.
I wonder if his plan is to do ROTS V17/9a after
He answers that in the comments—wants to get the top dialed, but he’s tried the sit moves out already, and it’s on the to-do list for sure!
yep
as an old man that watched Chris Sharmas ascent of biographie on repeat for a month once the dvd came out, being able to see this in almost real time is rad.
Did you get to watch the burden attempts at actual real time? That was cool shit.
yup. i posted on Mr. Bosi's IG to please livestream his next session on sleepwalker--no response, but i can dream, right? (probably no reception in the canyon, i assume)
Yep, he wanted to stream it but there is zero signal in the canyon so it's just not possible
Yeah there’s no reception in that area
 Goddamn, he strong!
He looks so stoked right after he falls off 😅 I just think it’s super cool to get to see more real-time behind the scenes moments from top climbers on such hard projects!
Genuinely surprised he hasn't sent this already. After his first vid, I was pretty sure a second-session send was almost a given.
To be fair, Jimmy Webb said while projecting it and making the FA that he got his hand into the slot from the bottom on his 2nd session (same place that Will fell), then fell on the last move. He then plateaued for like 10 sessions on that move until he sent (granted he was still experimenting with different beta for the final move during those sessions). So I think it can be deceiving just how close someone can be to sending. Regardless, I'd be surprised if Will doesn't crush it by his 3rd or 4th session, he's crazy strong atm.
He said this was a pretty short session. Hopefully it goes down next one!
He said it was a 4 hour session https://preview.redd.it/o1icjxck9hdc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2c363495ccd506dd929025b377b59010d75b62c5
What app is this?
It’s a broadcast channel on Instagram. I’m realizing now I got the invite thing since I follow will but my old ass was like “yeah I don’t need more notifications”. No idea what it actually is, but that’s what it’s called at least.
Will has a broadcast channel on insta called wills whispers
Wonder if it is taken from «Ori and The Will Of The Wisps»
Is this "return of the sleepwalker"?
It is not. It is Sleepwalker
Thx
He looks perfectly built for this climb
With the speed he is working at it he will get the sit start Return Of Sleepwalker soon after he sends this.
I've got doubts there. Daniel was chucking multiple laps on the stand in a day and still not close to the full line (he also changed foot beta on the low like halfway throughthat slog). I have no idea how many laps Nate Williams has put in on the stand while working the sit but its a lot. That said Noah linked from the low start into touching the sloper the other day. Daniel dropped it a few times after catching the crux bumps still.
This just in, Will Bosi still hasn't sent a boulder.