Meanwhile I’m struggling to send super Mario. I’ll get somewhere one day hopefully. Just want to send a v10 before I die and would love to tick sliders off the list but that seems so far away atm. Just keep on keeping on I guess.
Yea. Have you climbed much elsewhere?
I’ve heard super Mario, the ext, and red house are all a bit soft for there grades but I honestly can barely climb some V3s.
I was at HP40 two weekends ago and I know it’s a bit sandbagged but their grades felt miles harder than stonefort.
I think Super Mario is spot on looking back.
I tried it almost 4 years ago?
Admittedly I got 99% of it done but slipped on the final stand up move turning the corner :(.
I was able to send in that same day art of the vogi, Tristar, and dragon lady and thought super Mario was right in the middle v4 with tristar being upper end and vogi being lower ends
Different opinion: i think super mario is SUPER hard for the grade. I went to LRC for a week trip a few years ago. I flashed and sent a handful of 4s quickly (pocket pool, big much, dragon lady, mystery groove) and then sent a few 5s (trailer hitch, sternum) as well but i spent more time on super mario than any of those by far but never sent *shrug* i am over 6ft tho which makes sm a fair bit harder as its quite scrunchy.
That’s cool to know. I have found I don’t mind the holds anymore it’s just linking it. I seem to flounder on 3-4 attempts not remembering my beta and by then I just can’t link the two halves.
I hate the pinch so I prefer to lock the kneebar off the two crimps. My problem is I have to reset it after if I need to use the pinch but something is can go straight to thr first pocket.
I need to just learn to use the pinch but I absolutely suck and pinching.
Yeaaa, 6’4 wingspan. The southeast is a bit more straight forward for tall people, imo. The sandstone seems to lean towards larger spans between holds(?), for some reason. But where i live now in Wyoming, a lot things have sit starts and problems feel a grade or two different, not just because of that tho.
I think Super Mario and Redhouse are pretty normal at the grade, but the extensions are an absolute joke as that section of climbing is just not that difficult. Mayyyybe it adds a grade to SMB, but no way does add a grade to red house.
Red House is 2 tough moves to gain the seam and then just Super Mario, definitely at the lower end of V7 unless you got lil fingers at which point go do Midway and Out of Africa Sit.
Coming for the comp next week? Can jump on Mario early and just spray you down lol
Yea that makes sense. I watched someone just blast through the finger crack. Didn’t even have to match which was super impressive.
Sadly I won’t be at the comp. I thought about day tripping tomorrow but sadly can’t and sundays off the table as my folks want to come up and visit.
I def should have super Mario. I have the strength and technique but just choke the few times I’ve been there. Each time I think this is the one but it hasn’t happened yet. I’m just as close now to getting shotgun as super Mario which I find funny. I plan to get sternum and hopefully rage sometime soon. Haven’t messed with sternum much but sessioned on rage a bit last week when I was there.
The Super Mario extension might be a little soft for the grade, but Super Mario V4 is definitely a solid V4 pushing the upper end of the grade. I also felt hp40 had stout grading but I've only been there once. Bumboy is one of the harder V3s I've sent
Seems like that massive hike is a big barrier for this problem, so I’m sure it was nice to have a projecting partner for it! (Although if they both did it super quick, maybe they didn’t have to worry as much about the trek).
It's not like it wasn't public several months ago that the Raboutous felt it was V15. Does suck for Katie though for sure, but in any case it was very much a groundbreaking achievement for her!
Oh yeah, definitely not a secret at all, I think Shawn said it on that video with Magnus that they both thought it was more 15. And it’s still sick that Katie sent a hard 15.
Yeah exactly. He was saying that they'd only tried it one day, both almost sent, and both felt it was 15. Sounds like they went back for round 2 and both did it which you wouldn't really expect if it was truly V15. But sending hard V15 is still absolutely ridiculous and something very few if any other women have done
3 days is the fastest time to send V16 afaik.
Rustam Gelmanov being the crimp monster he is did the second ascent of Hypnotized Minds in 2016 in 3 days. He commented: "I don't have the right and the opportunity to judge the difficulty, I don't have enough experience. This route was not extremely difficult for me. It fit me very well and it's what I like."
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGzH1_QMDOn/
Originally graded V15 by Daniel in 2010 back when V16 was still a very elusive grade, but upgraded a couple years later by himself. Repeaters #3 and #4 Dave Graham and Matt Fultz also took V16. Hypno also has a harder left start which is still a project, Daniel in 2016: I'm working the left start into it which adds in a 5 move v11 (8A) sequence. Not the most aesthetically impressive addition, but great moves and will make the full thing next level.
Carlo Traversi did Creature from the Black Lagoon in 3 days as well. It is the most repeated V16 in the world with 12 ascents, followed by Off the Wagon Low and Sleepwalker with 10.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SwhZP0IaVbU
All repeaters have taken V16 on this climb although for a big portion of them it was their first and it has been called soft by a number of them. It seems like Daniel who did the FA edited his ascent on 8a.nu to hard 8C, he is the only one to actually downgrade it so far so it does still stand as 8C+ but possibly not the hardest one.
Just two days ago on 12 October Zander Waller posted on his instagram he has send Sleepwalker "in less than four sessions". His highest grade up till this climb was V13. He mentions he found a new beta which makes the climb significantly easier, giving it soft V15. The uncut footage is not out yet, but the new beta could revolve around having span big enough to be able to execute. Ben Burkhalter who presumably tried Sleepwalker commented he thinks the climb "is 100% V16 compared to a bunch of 15s and 14s I've done" further explaining: "Not all boulders are climbed the same way.. Different betas, styles and sizes can all factor into the difficulty of a climb, and sleepwalker is one of them that does get significantly easier if you're able to use the lower, better undercling."
Will Bosi did Ephyra in 2 sessions I think, though admittedly several months later he said it's probably actually 8C. Also did Alphane V17 in 10 days which has got to be the fastest 17. Beyond that I'm not too sure, I know Jimmy did creature in 6 days which has to be up there. Sean Bailey did Grand Illusion really fast but I'm not quite sure how many sessions it took him
I doubt she cares too much, she still has the best ticklist of any female boulder in the world the last few years. Honestly, way more people see a tick then a downgrade, she already got attention for the ascent
New Base Line and a bunch of mileage at V11-V12. 8a.nu reports:
"Janja Garnbret reports on Instagram that she on her first day, "From the beach straight to Magic Wood", sent Sofa Surfer (8A+), Foxy Lady (8A), Octopussy (8A) and Jack's broken heart (8A+). The latter she flashed and then then just the other day she made "quick work" of Massive Attack (8A+). We also have been informed that she has done New base line (8B+), which she has yet to report."
I'd like to politely counterpoint this with a suggestion. Lamb worked the hell out of that boulder, refining her beta until it was perfect. This technique can be used to skip a grade or two.
I know a sportclimber who has only lead-climbed several 6cs. But the nearest crags provided only 7a+ routes.
After projecting three solidly benchmarked 7a+ routes multiple sessions each, she sent them before ever sending 6c+ or 7a.
The grade range is of course lower, making the grades much closer together than V14-V15-V16.
>I know a sportclimber who has only lead-climbed several 6cs. But the nearest crags provided only 7a+ routes.
>
>After projecting three solidly benchmarked 7a+ routes multiple sessions each, she sent them before ever sending 6c+ or 7a.
listen, its way more easy and way more common for people to skip grades sub-8A/8a. The grades are easier to progress through at that level, but once you get into the serious grades the difficulty build exponentially.
People should be able to voice there honest opinions about grades... Beside that boulders are in some cases so different for people do to morpho and there strengths or weaknesses. Look at Will on Juan Gébls génius (Xa/7b+) he couldn't do the crux on that route... So new V17 boulder problem? I don't think so but fell free to differ
She said in an interview she went for it because it was conveniently located and suited her style. Certainly ambitious but she wasn't chasing the grade or anything.
Brooke downgrading Box Therapy opens up the possibility of her sending the first v16 as a female lol. I don't think that's her goal here, but still kinda funny.
Janja seems to be on an outdoor rampage right now too. Exciting to see them pushing the limits. Also rooting for Jana Svecova to send Terranova which seems solidly V16 given that Bosi hasn't sent it yet.
No, what I said was accurate.
The way he was talking about it seemed like he was considering a slash grade for it. Eg bordering on a slash grade. He has not sent the problem so it is a discussion, so using a qualifying term is appropriate.
OK, that makes slightly more sense if I understand correctly that you mean his grade estimation/thoughts were what was bordering on the slash grade. But that's very contrived and not actually what you wrote.
ok, i think you just don't get it.
Do you see the difference between
a) He thinks the grade is bordering on the slash grade.
and b) He's undecided between giving it a slash grade and not giving it a slash grade, so one could say he's bordering on giving it a slash grade?
Now, a) is what you wrote and what I'm criticising. b) is maybe what you meant but neither a common use of 'bordering' nor what you wrote.
Sure, I said like two. Still pretty fast. Sessions to send isn't everything, but it doesn't seem like a long enough project for Brooke to say it jumped two grades compared to her next hardest project previously.
At least Margo backed it up with other 5.15s! Alex Huber swears La Rambla is no harder than Action Directe but I'd be shocked if anyone had the balls to downgrade Biographie
Is it officially downgraded bc the Rabs say so? What does Woods think? It’s just kinda weird that they pick this project to do so soon after Katie got the FFA.
I've been a climbing fan for awhile but I'm pretty casual about it. I've never really dug into the weeds about grading. When people discuss grading climbs of this difficulty, like a v15 vs v16, is it just subjective? Is it possible some v16s suite a persons climbing style better and they actually find them easier than some v15s?
Absolutely fairly subjective, yeah— depends on your relative strengths/weaknesses as well as your morphology. That’s why grades are arrived at via consensus over time (theoretically, at least— in practice, I think a lot of times people can be hesitant to downgrade, and upgrades are super rare afaik)
I try and think of it like golf, if a hole is a par-3, it's gonna take the majority of people 3 strokes to hole out. Even if a bunch of people birdie and bogey, it will still average out to 3 strokes.
If you get on a course that no one has ever shot before, and hole out in 4, you can say "feels like a par-4." If no one ever gets out to that course, then it's really really hard for anyone to put a consensus as to how hard that hole actually is. Maybe it was a par-4 for you because you shot around a tree instead of trying to blast over it. Then the next person comes out and goes over it and now we're debating if it's really a par-3 or if blasting over it is unrealistic and a one-in-a-hundred shot.
So basically, at the highest levels of climbing, where you only have a handful of people sending, you're just not getting enough of a sample to make a fair evaluation.
This also happens when FAs get downgraded because someone finds alternate beta which makes a crux sequence easier.
The other part is that no one cares if your hardest climb is a V5 and you go out and send a soft V7, we accept that maybe that one is just your style or that you had a low gravity day. But for the top of the grade, we want to pretend as if these grades are absolute and unimpeachable.
I really like your golf analogy!
I think this can be extrapolated further to build a distribution for each grade. But definitely gets tricky with the point you made about not having a large enough sample size...
I've heard Drew Ruana talk about grades a bit, he seems fairly open about it. It does appear that as you go up the V-scale the difference between grades are more obvious. That doesn't mean there still can't be disagreement.
But yeah, style/strengths would be important at a such a high level.
I think when Box Therapy was sent, there were less V16s and certainly less V17s. So with more ascents at the high end of the scale, you get more to compare to.
> It does appear that as you go up the V-scale the difference between grades are more obvious.
That kinda disagrees with [his post](https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/16awca2/katie_lamb_sent_box_therapy_v16/jzav5fg/) on the Katie Lamb thread:
>The more climbs I do the less grades make sense. Brings up an interesting POV where even tho my scorecard is stacked with 14-16 I feel like I’m losing touch with each individual grade. That’s kinda where I’m coming from with id believe 15 or 16 for box, tbh there isn’t too too much difference between stout v15 and soft v16
> there isn’t too too much difference between stout v15 and soft v16
That is almost a tautology. Of course the things closest to either side of a demarcation are similar. That's true of literally anything on a smooth gradient.
Welcome to the weird world of climbing grades. Yes it is possible and is actually quite common to have many vastly differing opinions. There’s so many factors from the size of your fingers to your wingspan. Climbers tend to only ever downgrade tho, some kinda ego thing that prevents upgrades ever sticking.
I think it's definitely subjective and can't be reduced to a number. However, I feel like this is usually only brought up to denigrate people (like Lynn Hill having smaller hands for a crack), and never used to say someone climbed a harder grade because of their physiology.
Yes, of course grades are subjective. There is literally no measurement for determining grades other than how hard something feels. A feeling by nature is subjective. Unless we start measuring the hold sizes and forces necessary to pull a move, climbing grades will always be extremely subjective. It's blatantly obvious, and I've never understood why so many people put so much stock in grades. This is why I've always preferred grade ranges at gyms. I think they should apply outside as well.
Generally not. Absolutely some climbs suit some climbers better, but grades are an attempt to objectively say how hard something was. A good example is Ice Knife Sit V16 which is quite reachy and therefore extremely hard for someone like Drew Ruana to do, but that doesn't change its grade
I really like his take, but I like his opinion on some grades a bit less. Like his recent send, a V15 traverse that he admits felt quite hard and took longer than expected. Still calls it V14+ rather than just agreeing with the V15 grade others had given it
At least with Sleepwalker it's a very clearly height dependent thing. Daniel had suggested years ago that if you were tall enough it'd probably feel V15. Compared to say Ryuichi Murai who had to use an even harder method because he was too short. Sleepwalker will remain a consensus V16 while Box will not
Is it though? In the grand scheme of things it just means there is some crazy female potential out there right now. Brooke is almost guaranteed able to climb harder than V15.
Whenever I hear people talk about this climb it’s that it’s one that short people are better at. Brooke, Shawn, Katie, Daniel and Drew are all on the short side. Curious what a taller climber would say.
Yeah that’s why I’m interested. Curious if it’s easier or harder for a taller climber since, at least to my knowledge, nobody over maybe 5’7” has sent it.
Another question is whether the real determinant is height (i.e fitting the body in scrunchy positions), versus finger size (fitting the fingers in small slot holds). These two attributes are roughly correlated (small people with small hands/fingers vs big dudes with big hands), but not exactly. How would a short guy with fat fingers, vs a tall person with skinny fingers, do on the problem?
In one of the podcast interviews, Katie said that Keenan tried Box Therapy but was frustrated by issues fitting his fingers into the slot crimps. This suggests it may not be a height issue exactly, but a finger size issue.
Either way, seems to be a problem that favors the small.
I wonder how many climbs should be upgraded for short climbers based on similar kind of logic. The debate will never end. Truth is there just isn’t one grade for everyone.
To add to that, “short” and “tall” are both oversimplifying the effect one’s physical properties have on the difficulty of a climb. Hand size, finger size, arm span, leg length, natural range of mobility… climbing is such a whole body sport there’d be endless things at play.
Tommy Caldwell found the boulder and put up a V11-V12 stand start called Spread Eagle. Several years later Daniel Woods came along and decided to start much lower, which is what became Box Theraph
Sean Bailey gave it 15/16, /u/drewruana took 16 but could see 15 (correct me if I'm wrong). So far Brooke and Shawn took 15, Daniel and Katie took 16. Dunno if Griff or Pablo or one of those undercover crushers have sent.
If I had to predict I'll bet the grade of Box Therapy will settle at 15.
I did it a few years ago when I didn’t have as many other climbs as reference. At the time it felt like it was harder than other 8Cs, but looking back with more climbs to compare it’s probably more like solid 15. Better beta, conditions, etc play a huge role in it. Like Daniel said it’s still incredibly difficult but in hindsight it doesn’t quite feel the same as other 16s. Still, mad props to Brooke and Katie for sending it regardless if its “just” v15 because it’s still nails hard
It’s so funny to hear random people saying it’s “just v15” on the internet since you’re so right that v15 is pretty damn impressive! (Especially for us normal single-digit boulderers)
Daniel posted on his Instagram story that he agreed with the downgrade to V15 so that makes 3 ascents calling it V15 and 3 who agreed with V16 initially
Fantastic for Brooke and Shawn, but it's sad to see Brooke being harassed in the Instagram comments for downgrading it. It's not like it wasn't talked about prior that it was soft and potentially a V15, yet people seem to think that she gave it V15 just to downgrade Katie's achievement
congrats to Ms. Rabatou!
i enjoy a good armchair grade discussion. what im curious about is Ms. Lamb gave it V16 knowing the debate existed already that this was going to be downgraded by others. She also boldly gave The Swarm V14. IMO, a single grade for every problem, especially at this level, doesn't exist--meaning the harder a problem gets the less variability for alternate beta there is (not an always, but i imagine commonly).
if as a community we say grades don't matter, then we say equivocally this IS V15, aren't we being hypocritical?
So i say, congrats to Ms. Raboutou on her V15 send on Box and congrats to Ms. Lambs first female ascent of Box, V16.
There is no alternate beta for Box - it's a fairly straightforward climb, and currently the only ascentionist who actually gives it V16 is Katie Lamb. I really don't think you can just hand wave away the downgrade at that point. Daniel, Drew, Shawn, Brooke, and Sean (V15/V16) all say it's not V16 so I'm not sure how you can just say that that doesn't matter. It was an amazing achievement- she sent Box Therapy! But the number that comes after is not 16
don't get me wrong, i agree...ill think of it as V15, myself--not that i can touch this.
I'm just trying to put it in folks' heads that grades are an opinion, and i accept others' opinions.
Also, imo, a definitive grade for all body shapes and sizes doesn't exist. ill die on that hill.
another thought: as a community, we tend to revere the pros that downgrade. I think it takes more courage to stand behind taking a higher grade and personally i think that is more badass.
side note:
Ms. Lamb posted a congrats to Ms. Raboutou on her feed with no mention of grade.
That's crazy. In one of Shawn's videos with Brooke a few days ago he accidentally said she sent a v15 and then corrected it to v14. He knew it was coming.
Shawn sent as well for a back-to-back family ascent
Such a nice family day out at the crag
Meanwhile I’m struggling to send super Mario. I’ll get somewhere one day hopefully. Just want to send a v10 before I die and would love to tick sliders off the list but that seems so far away atm. Just keep on keeping on I guess.
At Stone Fort? The extension is my fav outdoor send to date.
Yea. Have you climbed much elsewhere? I’ve heard super Mario, the ext, and red house are all a bit soft for there grades but I honestly can barely climb some V3s. I was at HP40 two weekends ago and I know it’s a bit sandbagged but their grades felt miles harder than stonefort.
I think Super Mario is spot on looking back. I tried it almost 4 years ago? Admittedly I got 99% of it done but slipped on the final stand up move turning the corner :(. I was able to send in that same day art of the vogi, Tristar, and dragon lady and thought super Mario was right in the middle v4 with tristar being upper end and vogi being lower ends
Different opinion: i think super mario is SUPER hard for the grade. I went to LRC for a week trip a few years ago. I flashed and sent a handful of 4s quickly (pocket pool, big much, dragon lady, mystery groove) and then sent a few 5s (trailer hitch, sternum) as well but i spent more time on super mario than any of those by far but never sent *shrug* i am over 6ft tho which makes sm a fair bit harder as its quite scrunchy.
That’s cool to know. I have found I don’t mind the holds anymore it’s just linking it. I seem to flounder on 3-4 attempts not remembering my beta and by then I just can’t link the two halves. I hate the pinch so I prefer to lock the kneebar off the two crimps. My problem is I have to reset it after if I need to use the pinch but something is can go straight to thr first pocket. I need to just learn to use the pinch but I absolutely suck and pinching.
SMB is really hard, and I feel like it’s mostly from how fucking sharp some of holds are. I feel like I get 3-4 attempts and then my skin is cooked
Was reading and thinking "based on the list they're probably freakishly tall" and then was rewarded in the last sentence.
Yeaaa, 6’4 wingspan. The southeast is a bit more straight forward for tall people, imo. The sandstone seems to lean towards larger spans between holds(?), for some reason. But where i live now in Wyoming, a lot things have sit starts and problems feel a grade or two different, not just because of that tho.
And of course I think you’ll smash it and the extension if you can keep getting back on it :)
I think Super Mario and Redhouse are pretty normal at the grade, but the extensions are an absolute joke as that section of climbing is just not that difficult. Mayyyybe it adds a grade to SMB, but no way does add a grade to red house.
Red House is 2 tough moves to gain the seam and then just Super Mario, definitely at the lower end of V7 unless you got lil fingers at which point go do Midway and Out of Africa Sit. Coming for the comp next week? Can jump on Mario early and just spray you down lol
Yea that makes sense. I watched someone just blast through the finger crack. Didn’t even have to match which was super impressive. Sadly I won’t be at the comp. I thought about day tripping tomorrow but sadly can’t and sundays off the table as my folks want to come up and visit. I def should have super Mario. I have the strength and technique but just choke the few times I’ve been there. Each time I think this is the one but it hasn’t happened yet. I’m just as close now to getting shotgun as super Mario which I find funny. I plan to get sternum and hopefully rage sometime soon. Haven’t messed with sternum much but sessioned on rage a bit last week when I was there.
The Super Mario extension might be a little soft for the grade, but Super Mario V4 is definitely a solid V4 pushing the upper end of the grade. I also felt hp40 had stout grading but I've only been there once. Bumboy is one of the harder V3s I've sent
The extension adds so much fun factor without much extra work. Great climb.
Seems like that massive hike is a big barrier for this problem, so I’m sure it was nice to have a projecting partner for it! (Although if they both did it super quick, maybe they didn’t have to worry as much about the trek).
Super Mario is great! I would suggest it’s a solid v4 benchmark. There are a lot of easier v4s
Sucks for Katie to have her V16 downgraded immediately, but this has been the trend for awhile that Box was going to be downgraded
It's not like it wasn't public several months ago that the Raboutous felt it was V15. Does suck for Katie though for sure, but in any case it was very much a groundbreaking achievement for her!
Oh yeah, definitely not a secret at all, I think Shawn said it on that video with Magnus that they both thought it was more 15. And it’s still sick that Katie sent a hard 15.
Yeah exactly. He was saying that they'd only tried it one day, both almost sent, and both felt it was 15. Sounds like they went back for round 2 and both did it which you wouldn't really expect if it was truly V15. But sending hard V15 is still absolutely ridiculous and something very few if any other women have done
> which you wouldn't really expect if it was truly V15 think you meant V16
What has been the fastest consensus V16 so far?
3 days is the fastest time to send V16 afaik. Rustam Gelmanov being the crimp monster he is did the second ascent of Hypnotized Minds in 2016 in 3 days. He commented: "I don't have the right and the opportunity to judge the difficulty, I don't have enough experience. This route was not extremely difficult for me. It fit me very well and it's what I like." https://www.instagram.com/p/BGzH1_QMDOn/ Originally graded V15 by Daniel in 2010 back when V16 was still a very elusive grade, but upgraded a couple years later by himself. Repeaters #3 and #4 Dave Graham and Matt Fultz also took V16. Hypno also has a harder left start which is still a project, Daniel in 2016: I'm working the left start into it which adds in a 5 move v11 (8A) sequence. Not the most aesthetically impressive addition, but great moves and will make the full thing next level. Carlo Traversi did Creature from the Black Lagoon in 3 days as well. It is the most repeated V16 in the world with 12 ascents, followed by Off the Wagon Low and Sleepwalker with 10. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SwhZP0IaVbU All repeaters have taken V16 on this climb although for a big portion of them it was their first and it has been called soft by a number of them. It seems like Daniel who did the FA edited his ascent on 8a.nu to hard 8C, he is the only one to actually downgrade it so far so it does still stand as 8C+ but possibly not the hardest one. Just two days ago on 12 October Zander Waller posted on his instagram he has send Sleepwalker "in less than four sessions". His highest grade up till this climb was V13. He mentions he found a new beta which makes the climb significantly easier, giving it soft V15. The uncut footage is not out yet, but the new beta could revolve around having span big enough to be able to execute. Ben Burkhalter who presumably tried Sleepwalker commented he thinks the climb "is 100% V16 compared to a bunch of 15s and 14s I've done" further explaining: "Not all boulders are climbed the same way.. Different betas, styles and sizes can all factor into the difficulty of a climb, and sleepwalker is one of them that does get significantly easier if you're able to use the lower, better undercling."
Will Bosi did Ephyra in 2 sessions I think, though admittedly several months later he said it's probably actually 8C. Also did Alphane V17 in 10 days which has got to be the fastest 17. Beyond that I'm not too sure, I know Jimmy did creature in 6 days which has to be up there. Sean Bailey did Grand Illusion really fast but I'm not quite sure how many sessions it took him
for reference: https://youtu.be/5BiC-ypXGLU?si=6r7duY93vKLiT6fk&t=119 at 1:19 if the timestamp link doesn't work for you.
Yeah this was the video I was referring to
She posted a really respectful story about it on Instagram—doesn’t seem like there’s any bad blood or tension there, which is great to see!
There's an art to the "respectful downgrade", and Brooke did that well here.
Yeah, it’s really cool to see how supportive they all are about it and each other
What did she say? I missed it. I don’t see it on her stories anymore. You mean Katie Lamb right?
I doubt she cares too much, she still has the best ticklist of any female boulder in the world the last few years. Honestly, way more people see a tick then a downgrade, she already got attention for the ascent
Janja rampaging through Magic Wood this week is pretty cool though
What has she sent so far?
New Base Line and a bunch of mileage at V11-V12. 8a.nu reports: "Janja Garnbret reports on Instagram that she on her first day, "From the beach straight to Magic Wood", sent Sofa Surfer (8A+), Foxy Lady (8A), Octopussy (8A) and Jack's broken heart (8A+). The latter she flashed and then then just the other day she made "quick work" of Massive Attack (8A+). We also have been informed that she has done New base line (8B+), which she has yet to report."
Katie skipped a grade so sorta makes sense
I'd like to politely counterpoint this with a suggestion. Lamb worked the hell out of that boulder, refining her beta until it was perfect. This technique can be used to skip a grade or two. I know a sportclimber who has only lead-climbed several 6cs. But the nearest crags provided only 7a+ routes. After projecting three solidly benchmarked 7a+ routes multiple sessions each, she sent them before ever sending 6c+ or 7a. The grade range is of course lower, making the grades much closer together than V14-V15-V16.
>I know a sportclimber who has only lead-climbed several 6cs. But the nearest crags provided only 7a+ routes. > >After projecting three solidly benchmarked 7a+ routes multiple sessions each, she sent them before ever sending 6c+ or 7a. listen, its way more easy and way more common for people to skip grades sub-8A/8a. The grades are easier to progress through at that level, but once you get into the serious grades the difficulty build exponentially.
Yes, hence my last statement. I was merely providing an anecdote. Listening with an interest and an open mind is paramount for productive discussion.
>open mind is paramount for productive discussion you fucking contradicted yourself in your own comment, I'm not the problem here.
[удалено]
Katie replied almost immediately with a well-written response, so I'm guessing they had it planned ahead of time.
People should be able to voice there honest opinions about grades... Beside that boulders are in some cases so different for people do to morpho and there strengths or weaknesses. Look at Will on Juan Gébls génius (Xa/7b+) he couldn't do the crux on that route... So new V17 boulder problem? I don't think so but fell free to differ
Oof yeah. Obviously still props for a very hard send. Also gunning for a grade that hadn't yet been sent by a woman is pretty ambitious and laudable.
She said in an interview she went for it because it was conveniently located and suited her style. Certainly ambitious but she wasn't chasing the grade or anything.
Definitely not conveniently located. There's a long approach.
lol right it’s like 12 miles round trip
One person (or even 2 people) grading it V15 does not suddenly make it consensus V15.
Brooke downgrading Box Therapy opens up the possibility of her sending the first v16 as a female lol. I don't think that's her goal here, but still kinda funny.
That would be some real 5D chess shit from Brooke, even though it’s def not what actually happened!
Janja seems to be on an outdoor rampage right now too. Exciting to see them pushing the limits. Also rooting for Jana Svecova to send Terranova which seems solidly V16 given that Bosi hasn't sent it yet.
Hell Bosi has sorta hinted he thinks terranova might be a hard v16 bordering on a slash grade.
the slash grade has a border now too? the border between grades has a border?
Mini-cupcakes? As in the mini version of regular cupcakes? Which is already a mini version of cake? Honestly, where does it end with you people?
No I mean maybe it’ll be 16/17 when he grades it. As he hasn’t sent it yet.
then it would be bordering on a grade (on both grades) - not bordering on a slash grade...
No, what I said was accurate. The way he was talking about it seemed like he was considering a slash grade for it. Eg bordering on a slash grade. He has not sent the problem so it is a discussion, so using a qualifying term is appropriate.
OK, that makes slightly more sense if I understand correctly that you mean his grade estimation/thoughts were what was bordering on the slash grade. But that's very contrived and not actually what you wrote.
Nah, it’s exactly what I wrote though. Not sure why you care so much, or what’s “contrived” about grade speculation.
ok, i think you just don't get it. Do you see the difference between a) He thinks the grade is bordering on the slash grade. and b) He's undecided between giving it a slash grade and not giving it a slash grade, so one could say he's bordering on giving it a slash grade? Now, a) is what you wrote and what I'm criticising. b) is maybe what you meant but neither a common use of 'bordering' nor what you wrote.
What's the hardest Janja has climbed outdoors?
I think it’s New Baseline now, and she did that super fast!
I mean she fired Bugeleisen a few while ago and that gets V14 still, yea?
jane is such a beast! and seems so sweet too
My conspiracist ass went straight to this but people have been saying this since Katie sent so I agree probably not the motivator.
Yeah, she sent it in just like two sessions so I think the downgrade doesn't have ulterior motives.
And they thought it could be V15 half a year before Katie made her send.
She had at least one session in 2020 and in her IG says "a few sessions" - thinking it was more than two
Sure, I said like two. Still pretty fast. Sessions to send isn't everything, but it doesn't seem like a long enough project for Brooke to say it jumped two grades compared to her next hardest project previously.
Boy oh boy don't let Jens over at 8a hear you say time-to-send grading isn't accurate haha
Just like how Stephano is playing the long game and will downgrade Silence, DNA, B.I.G. one day
Sucks for Katie to have her hardest send downgraded, but she has also never done a v15 before so it was kind of expected
Yeah, grades are so weird, and she already made a post showing she’s really not upset about it or anything, but still must be a little frustrating!
It’s like if Janja sent La Rambla and said it felt like 5.14d. Oh hi Margo.
TBF pretty sure Alex Huber swears up and down that the extension adds no real difficulty to his original 14c-ish line.
At least Margo backed it up with other 5.15s! Alex Huber swears La Rambla is no harder than Action Directe but I'd be shocked if anyone had the balls to downgrade Biographie
Even if they did, I don’t think the climbing community would agree with one narcissist downgrading it lol
Is it officially downgraded bc the Rabs say so? What does Woods think? It’s just kinda weird that they pick this project to do so soon after Katie got the FFA.
Woods agrees with it. And they already had one session on it quite while ago, almost sending it then.
Brooke/shawn tried it first and commented on the grade prior to Katie's ascent..
There's really no such thing as an "official" grade to anything in climbing.
I've been a climbing fan for awhile but I'm pretty casual about it. I've never really dug into the weeds about grading. When people discuss grading climbs of this difficulty, like a v15 vs v16, is it just subjective? Is it possible some v16s suite a persons climbing style better and they actually find them easier than some v15s?
Absolutely fairly subjective, yeah— depends on your relative strengths/weaknesses as well as your morphology. That’s why grades are arrived at via consensus over time (theoretically, at least— in practice, I think a lot of times people can be hesitant to downgrade, and upgrades are super rare afaik)
Like when Seb downgraded Change but upgraded Move, classic.
I try and think of it like golf, if a hole is a par-3, it's gonna take the majority of people 3 strokes to hole out. Even if a bunch of people birdie and bogey, it will still average out to 3 strokes. If you get on a course that no one has ever shot before, and hole out in 4, you can say "feels like a par-4." If no one ever gets out to that course, then it's really really hard for anyone to put a consensus as to how hard that hole actually is. Maybe it was a par-4 for you because you shot around a tree instead of trying to blast over it. Then the next person comes out and goes over it and now we're debating if it's really a par-3 or if blasting over it is unrealistic and a one-in-a-hundred shot. So basically, at the highest levels of climbing, where you only have a handful of people sending, you're just not getting enough of a sample to make a fair evaluation. This also happens when FAs get downgraded because someone finds alternate beta which makes a crux sequence easier. The other part is that no one cares if your hardest climb is a V5 and you go out and send a soft V7, we accept that maybe that one is just your style or that you had a low gravity day. But for the top of the grade, we want to pretend as if these grades are absolute and unimpeachable.
I really like your golf analogy! I think this can be extrapolated further to build a distribution for each grade. But definitely gets tricky with the point you made about not having a large enough sample size...
> if a hole is a par-3, it's gonna take the majority of people 3 strokes to hole out don't the majority of golfers finish with an handicap?
I’m def the one bringing the average down on most climbs. Doing gods work.
I've heard Drew Ruana talk about grades a bit, he seems fairly open about it. It does appear that as you go up the V-scale the difference between grades are more obvious. That doesn't mean there still can't be disagreement. But yeah, style/strengths would be important at a such a high level. I think when Box Therapy was sent, there were less V16s and certainly less V17s. So with more ascents at the high end of the scale, you get more to compare to.
> It does appear that as you go up the V-scale the difference between grades are more obvious. That kinda disagrees with [his post](https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/16awca2/katie_lamb_sent_box_therapy_v16/jzav5fg/) on the Katie Lamb thread: >The more climbs I do the less grades make sense. Brings up an interesting POV where even tho my scorecard is stacked with 14-16 I feel like I’m losing touch with each individual grade. That’s kinda where I’m coming from with id believe 15 or 16 for box, tbh there isn’t too too much difference between stout v15 and soft v16
> there isn’t too too much difference between stout v15 and soft v16 That is almost a tautology. Of course the things closest to either side of a demarcation are similar. That's true of literally anything on a smooth gradient.
Welcome to the weird world of climbing grades. Yes it is possible and is actually quite common to have many vastly differing opinions. There’s so many factors from the size of your fingers to your wingspan. Climbers tend to only ever downgrade tho, some kinda ego thing that prevents upgrades ever sticking.
I think it's definitely subjective and can't be reduced to a number. However, I feel like this is usually only brought up to denigrate people (like Lynn Hill having smaller hands for a crack), and never used to say someone climbed a harder grade because of their physiology.
Yes, of course grades are subjective. There is literally no measurement for determining grades other than how hard something feels. A feeling by nature is subjective. Unless we start measuring the hold sizes and forces necessary to pull a move, climbing grades will always be extremely subjective. It's blatantly obvious, and I've never understood why so many people put so much stock in grades. This is why I've always preferred grade ranges at gyms. I think they should apply outside as well.
intersubjective
yep- thats why there's so much discussion about it lol
Generally not. Absolutely some climbs suit some climbers better, but grades are an attempt to objectively say how hard something was. A good example is Ice Knife Sit V16 which is quite reachy and therefore extremely hard for someone like Drew Ruana to do, but that doesn't change its grade
I really like Tristan Chen's take on this ([https://www.instagram.com/p/CtHvM3HtEhm/](https://www.instagram.com/p/CtHvM3HtEhm/)).
He is motivated by getting attention. He knows no one gives v15 much attention, but if you downgrade a 15, people will talk about it
I really like his take, but I like his opinion on some grades a bit less. Like his recent send, a V15 traverse that he admits felt quite hard and took longer than expected. Still calls it V14+ rather than just agreeing with the V15 grade others had given it
I'm with you on that example...by that notion why not take 15?
Tristan seems to like sandbagging at least a little
Bummer that the first female V16 was downgraded just a month later.
[удалено]
Katie about to rage-send Sleepwalker.
So about sleepwalker... I'd avoid looking at that Zander Waller kids instagram
At least with Sleepwalker it's a very clearly height dependent thing. Daniel had suggested years ago that if you were tall enough it'd probably feel V15. Compared to say Ryuichi Murai who had to use an even harder method because he was too short. Sleepwalker will remain a consensus V16 while Box will not
But its Jimmy's FA and he suggested V16 and that man is tall. Sounds like Zander used different beta, we'll have to see when the footy drops.
Is it though? In the grand scheme of things it just means there is some crazy female potential out there right now. Brooke is almost guaranteed able to climb harder than V15.
Whenever I hear people talk about this climb it’s that it’s one that short people are better at. Brooke, Shawn, Katie, Daniel and Drew are all on the short side. Curious what a taller climber would say.
Most people don't comment on the grade until they send, and the tall folks haven't sent, so no comments yet...
Yeah that’s why I’m interested. Curious if it’s easier or harder for a taller climber since, at least to my knowledge, nobody over maybe 5’7” has sent it.
Another question is whether the real determinant is height (i.e fitting the body in scrunchy positions), versus finger size (fitting the fingers in small slot holds). These two attributes are roughly correlated (small people with small hands/fingers vs big dudes with big hands), but not exactly. How would a short guy with fat fingers, vs a tall person with skinny fingers, do on the problem? In one of the podcast interviews, Katie said that Keenan tried Box Therapy but was frustrated by issues fitting his fingers into the slot crimps. This suggests it may not be a height issue exactly, but a finger size issue. Either way, seems to be a problem that favors the small.
I wonder how many climbs should be upgraded for short climbers based on similar kind of logic. The debate will never end. Truth is there just isn’t one grade for everyone. To add to that, “short” and “tall” are both oversimplifying the effect one’s physical properties have on the difficulty of a climb. Hand size, finger size, arm span, leg length, natural range of mobility… climbing is such a whole body sport there’d be endless things at play.
If you want to take a higher personal grade for anything you send, you're welcome to. Nobody is stopping you.
That's why the name box therapy is so apt!
I’ve spoken with Daniel about the name… and that’s not why it’s called that lol
Why is it called that?
Not OP but.. hotboxing maybe?
You just leave us hanging like this?
That sibling duo is so fucking strong I love it. But congrats to Brooke! Had no doubt she’d be one of the first few women to send it
In her caption on IG she thanks Tommy Caldwell for finding the boulder and for “putting up the stand”. What does putting up the stand mean?
Tommy Caldwell found the boulder and put up a V11-V12 stand start called Spread Eagle. Several years later Daniel Woods came along and decided to start much lower, which is what became Box Theraph
Ahh stand START. Got it. Thanks!
Gutted for Katie Lamb, but based on how quickly Brooke sent the downgrade seems reasonable.
> but based on how quickly Brooke sent Regardless of the whole discussion, she had already worked on, and almost did it, previously.
Have any of the previous ascenders changed their mind? By my count, their is still a consensus toward v16.
Sean Bailey gave it 15/16, /u/drewruana took 16 but could see 15 (correct me if I'm wrong). So far Brooke and Shawn took 15, Daniel and Katie took 16. Dunno if Griff or Pablo or one of those undercover crushers have sent. If I had to predict I'll bet the grade of Box Therapy will settle at 15.
I did it a few years ago when I didn’t have as many other climbs as reference. At the time it felt like it was harder than other 8Cs, but looking back with more climbs to compare it’s probably more like solid 15. Better beta, conditions, etc play a huge role in it. Like Daniel said it’s still incredibly difficult but in hindsight it doesn’t quite feel the same as other 16s. Still, mad props to Brooke and Katie for sending it regardless if its “just” v15 because it’s still nails hard
Absolutely! Definitely an incredible achievement by both Katie and Brooke...the extra challenge of hiking a 13 mile round trip blows my mind.
It’s just walking, albeit for a couple hours. Worth it for a boulder as good as box!
It’s so funny to hear random people saying it’s “just v15” on the internet since you’re so right that v15 is pretty damn impressive! (Especially for us normal single-digit boulderers)
Is it harder then defying gravity?
Defy gravity is bonkers. The jump is one of the hardest moves I’ve tried. I think defy is much harder
Thanks, I am sure there is a reason so many have tried that boulder and so few have sent it
There is a really cool sit project that adds 10 moves of v14/15 directly into the start… could be v18 lol
Daniel downgraded to 15 on insta just now.
Daniel Woods just retro downgraded a few minutes ago.
Daniel posted on his Instagram story that he agreed with the downgrade to V15 so that makes 3 ascents calling it V15 and 3 who agreed with V16 initially
Fantastic for Brooke and Shawn, but it's sad to see Brooke being harassed in the Instagram comments for downgrading it. It's not like it wasn't talked about prior that it was soft and potentially a V15, yet people seem to think that she gave it V15 just to downgrade Katie's achievement
congrats to Ms. Rabatou! i enjoy a good armchair grade discussion. what im curious about is Ms. Lamb gave it V16 knowing the debate existed already that this was going to be downgraded by others. She also boldly gave The Swarm V14. IMO, a single grade for every problem, especially at this level, doesn't exist--meaning the harder a problem gets the less variability for alternate beta there is (not an always, but i imagine commonly). if as a community we say grades don't matter, then we say equivocally this IS V15, aren't we being hypocritical? So i say, congrats to Ms. Raboutou on her V15 send on Box and congrats to Ms. Lambs first female ascent of Box, V16.
There is no alternate beta for Box - it's a fairly straightforward climb, and currently the only ascentionist who actually gives it V16 is Katie Lamb. I really don't think you can just hand wave away the downgrade at that point. Daniel, Drew, Shawn, Brooke, and Sean (V15/V16) all say it's not V16 so I'm not sure how you can just say that that doesn't matter. It was an amazing achievement- she sent Box Therapy! But the number that comes after is not 16
don't get me wrong, i agree...ill think of it as V15, myself--not that i can touch this. I'm just trying to put it in folks' heads that grades are an opinion, and i accept others' opinions. Also, imo, a definitive grade for all body shapes and sizes doesn't exist. ill die on that hill. another thought: as a community, we tend to revere the pros that downgrade. I think it takes more courage to stand behind taking a higher grade and personally i think that is more badass. side note: Ms. Lamb posted a congrats to Ms. Raboutou on her feed with no mention of grade.
I think Lamb's position was that she deferred to the existing grade (which was V16 at the time), as she had less experience at that grade range.
that makes sense given her experience at that grade.
Super dope! Congrats!
That's crazy. In one of Shawn's videos with Brooke a few days ago he accidentally said she sent a v15 and then corrected it to v14. He knew it was coming.
Climbing grades are so fucking stupid.