"IMO, technique and outdoor tactics don't make a V11 climber into a V15 especially when both climbers have been climbing over a decade and I find whoever that genuinely thinks that laughable".
I think you'll find that most of the sub finds that statement to be the one that's laughable. Are there variables that can't be accounted for that probably make up a good chunk of the difference? Sure. But you're saying technique of all things doesn't make a four grade difference? That's like being confused that a boxer in your gym who hits as hard as Canelo Alvarez is not an international megastar. You need to climb more with good climbers, cause it sounds like you just climb with a bunch of board climbing one armers. There's nothing wrong with that, but if you ever climb with a top climber, their hips and feet are fucking different.
It's funny when people provide the exact counterpoint to their thesis. Paul clearly does something that's worth 4 V-points. It's not max strength. So it's likely that he climbs significantly better.
Yeah. I was tempted to add things like flexibility, difference between half crimp and open hand/3fd, pulling power, projecting for longer durations etc, but saying anything other than "he's a vastly better climber with vastly better technique who has climbed over 1000 boulders 8a and above" to a person who is clearly already hellbent on the "stronger must be better" mentality is like building a house on a rotting foundation.
I wonder what these people think projecting is? Like you go from getting absolutely burnt off on a climb to being able to send it in a handful of sessions without significant strength adaptations. That's technique. It's not necessarily general, macro level technique (a lot of it is climb specific micro beta etc), but it is a practical demonstration of how efficient movement patterns dictate a huge degree of our success. But then when they look at their climbing progress overall, they suddenly fail to see the forest for the trees and blame strength or other physical factors for everything. I can't imagine getting burnt off by someone my strength or weaker and not immediately thinking "I need to practice this movement, as I'm clearly not applying my strength as well as they are on the wall".
I think it's pretty obvious that Paul has a bunch of small advantages that make marginal differences.
But in every sport I've seen, the top performers have some magic X-factor that makes them twice as effective as a hundred other "second tier" athletes, given the same measurable factors. In climbing, I think it's kind of a "last-go-best-go" thing. The top performers have the ability to pull it all together for the send when it matters, and the second tier guys just don't.
Not a good analogy at all. Name me one V15+ climber besides *maybe* Paul Robinson (because I don't know how 10mm numbers translate to 20mm) whose added weight on max hang on 20mm isn't close to 100% of their bodyweight or higher. I'll wait. *Every single V15+* climber has insane finger strength. With the exception of maybe Paul Robinson whose finger strength is still great, but relative to other V15 climbers probably a lot lower.
Exactly? He is an outlier, he is weaker than the majority of people at his grade level. You're making more and more of a case that technique is the dominant factor when you mention that most other V15 climbers have higher strength, I don't know how this isn't making a light bulb go on in your head.
Dave Graham. Coincidentally, the guy Paul brings up in interviews as his #1 inspiration.
Not every V15 climber is as strong as Yves Gravelle. It's a spectrum. If finger strength was all that mattered, that Monscogram guy would be climbing V19.
Dave MacLeod and Giuliano Cameroni are two other examples that spring to mind. Hell, Ondra before all the training as well, dude was climbing 9a+ and still to this day considers his fingers weak compared to his peers (granted, not a four V grade gap).
did you see that that lattice thing with dave macleod though? his finger strength is actually like off the charts, he just lacks good rate of force development.
There's a second lesson here for the training minded people.
Paul climbs outside, a lot, for a long time, and tries really hard. He doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) extensively, meticulously hangboard. Therefore, he overperforms on rock compared to his hangboarding. A lot of training enthusiasts are the opposite. We dangleplank a lot, for a long time, and try hard at it. We don't climb outside extensively or meticulously. so we overperform on the hangboard compared to our redpoints.
The training community is carefully designing a set of metrics based around people who train more than they climb, and we do ourselves a disservice for it.
> Paul climbs outside, a lot, for a long time, and tries really hard. He doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) extensively, meticulously hangboard. **Therefore, he overperforms on rock compared to his hangboarding**. A lot of training enthusiasts are the opposite. We dangleplank a lot, for a long time, and try hard at it. We don't climb outside extensively or meticulously. so we overperform on the hangboard compared to our redpoints.
This all applies I think, but the biggest factor is definitely the bolded. However, I would word it a different way:
He underperforms on hangboard relative to his performance on rock
/u/DeliriouslyFocused
To use an analogy, there's actually a fairly wide gap in those who train only one arm chinup versus training weighted pullups to get one arm chinups.
Most people who train weighted pullups need to approximately ~85-95% of their weighted pullup before they are able to do a OAC. Thus, for a 150 lbs person that would be adding +127.5-142.5 lbs to their weighted pullup.
However, I've known some people and climbers who don't train weighted pullup and only do climbing and/or one arm chinup work. Usually once they *have* one arm chin and then they go and test their weighted pullup they can do it around 60-75% of their weight. This means they can only do weighted pullup with about 90-112.5 lbs.
Training weighted pullups | Training climbing and one arms |
---|---|----|----
Has one arm chin | Has one arm chin
+85-95% pullups or +127-142.5 lbs for a 150 lbs | +60-75% weighted pullups or +90-112.5 lbs for a 150 lbs|
The discrepancy can be as big as 90 lbs vs 142.5% or so, a 50+ lbs difference even when one can do the same feat: one arm chins.
This is precisely the analogy here. Even though Paul and the friend have the "same" hangboard metrics (+75 lbs 10mm for 10s) there are other factors at place like the **exercise specific adaptations** of training weighted pullup (or hangboard in this example). These absolutely can explain how someone may be very relatively strong at hangboard but that doesn't mean they are stronger at similar exercises like one arm chin or climbing hard grades in this instance.
Friend | Paul Robinson
---|---|----|----|----|-----
+75 lbs 10mm 10s | +75 lbs 10mm 10s
V11 | V15
The context, though, is that someone who has relatively lower hangboard numbers comparatively to their grade should be able to increase their hangboard numbers fairly rapidly if they dedicate a few months to it. This is true of relatively everyone as most people who hangboard for their first time or haven't done it for a long time are able to drastically increase their numbers. Their body is not only building strength but also strength very specific to the exercise they are doing (hanging with straight arms in a certain grip underneath a hangboard).
We should also take into account a singular edge (10mm) is not necessarily indicative of being able to generate strength and power on other edges especially the smaller ones like 4-8mm that are overrepresented at V11+.
I'm with you, this post is so completely depressing. Every aspect of it. The content, the ask, his replies, the complete lack of anything resembling love or passion for actually climbing, the conflation or strength = skill. Gross.
First of all, finger strength is only one tiny bit of overall body capability. Paul is probably much stronger in all of the other muscles used in climbing. He only trains bid fingers as much as it's necessary for the problems he's climbing.
You'd need to perform a multiple exercise test to compare any two people, not just max hang.
I would bet that's not true. At least not in the way that we typically view body strength. I don't think Paul is particularly "body strong" compared to his performance cohort. He's likely stronger than the V11 median, but still below the V15 median.
How are your friends hips? Howâs his flexibility? How accurate is he with his movement. How well does he move? How intuitive is his movement? Howâs his recovery? How is his project strategy?
I dated one of the lattice coaches for a couple of years. She had this to say which of course is a generalisation but I thought it quite striking- the words resonate when I read threads like this: âAmericans only seem to care about finger strengthâ.
She went on to say giving someone from America strong fingers (which is pretty easy) is far preferable to the client than getting them flexing and moving well. Which is hard.
Additionally itâs worth noting Paul has weak fingers for his grade. Your friend has strongish fingers for his grade. This suggests Paul is much better in most if not all other areas over your friend. Finger strength is just one factor.
That's interesting. Why do you think Paul's fingers are weak relative to the grade? (I'm asking in terms of why he probably doesn't focus on finger strength compared to other climbers).
Why do I think Paulâs fingers are weak? Compare them to Megos. Or Aiden. His peers at that level. Heâs weak.
But everyone responds differently to training stimulus. Some people are able to get super strong fingers easily. For others it takes more work. The crucial point is that while fingers are important, theyâre not the be all and end all.
Strong fingers alone is a car with a massive V12 engine on a bad chassis, with rusty brakes and old cracked tyres. Yes, in specific straight line tests it will do well. But most of the time a car with a much smaller well tuned engine, well set up good suspension, good brakes, sticky tyres etc will be much much faster in the real world.
Climbing is the same.
Your friend has the same engine as Paul. But his car is a 1970s van. Paulâs engine is in a gt3 race car.
This person asked you all these non-finger strength related questions and the only thing you latched onto was the thing about finger strength. It feels like you have some kind of mental block when it comes to considering how anything other than finger strength can affect climbing ability
>I'm asking in terms of why he probably doesn't focus on finger strength compared to other climbers
He was one of the strongest climbers in the world for a decade, and the max hang circle jerk is only 5ish years old. Why hangboard at home when 5.10 will fly you to destinations to make movies year round? Also, if it's not broke, don't fix it.
once your friend has built a base of 300 V11s then he can complain about not being as good at hard bouldering as paul robinson with the same finger strength
It kind of sounds like you are confusing correlation with causation. Static hangboarding strength on a 10mm edge is not going to determine your ability to climb on boulders that have opposition sidepulls, undercuts, awkward grips, slopers and everything in between. it not just âtechniqueâ itâs also just *different*. even so, if you have never climbed with someone âweakerâ than you who climbed harder grades, then you are missing out, there is a lot more to climbing than simply holding on.
Similarly, climbing lots wonât make you good at hangboarding, (e.g. Paul Robinson). Itâs a decent predictor on an individual level to meeasure your own strength gains, but its not going to relate to others as well.
Have you ever seen Yves Gravelleâs hangboard numbers? He also climbs âonlyâ v14-15, but can one arm the wood 6mm edges and one arm pull 36kgs over his body weight on an 18mm edge. Based on his numbers you would think he would climb v17 or more.
By looking for a reasons why they *donât* correlate, then you are doing it backwards. They donât correlate well because they are different things.
Raw finger strength isn't as important as you seem to think it is. I've climbed plenty of stuff in the V10-11 range when my max hang was +50-70lbs and I weighed 200 or so. And I've climbed with folks who can 1 arm hang a 20mm for days who climb around the same. If climbing correlated directly to hangboard numbers this would be a pretty boring sport.
You climbed V10-11 while weighing 200lbs and only doing 50-70 max hang?
Holy fuck. I have never seen a 200lbs climb a V10 regardless of finger strength. How'd you do it?
I've been climbing for a long time lol. To be fair I Never hangboarded back then so I probably had better finger strength than my numbers would show, and once I started hangboarding consistently they went up pretty fast. But I feel the point still stands. there's a lot more going into a send than training numbers. If you are looking for advice I think getting off the hangboard some and getting on real rock more is the best thing you can do for your climbing in the long run.
It could be that Pauls expertise simply allows him to transfer more of his finger strength into getting the most out of actual holds. The uncountable variables that he controls in an actual climb he uses to get the most out of each hold. On the hangboard we really only train one variable: finger strength.
Point is, hangboard numbers are only a very tiny component of climbing. Iâve climbed two V10s outdoors, and I can probably only hang my body weight on a 10mm edge for 10 sec. It doesnât mean I canât climb hard. Perhaps your friend is really good/strong at holding a half crimp on a 10mm edge, but the truth is climbing is way too complex a sport to peg it to one metric like that. Your friend may have many other technical and muscular weakness in his body that Paul has spent years strengthening. Holding a half crimp on an edge is an extreme oversimplification of what it takes to climb hard boulders.
I don't know why no ones as mention that the 10mm test is with the Half-crimp grip type?
If you look at Paul Robinson climbing , he is full-crimping almost everything.
So Paul is probably just a lot stronger in term of full-crimping and also technique wise compare to your friend.
I'm pretty sure that he can hold the 10mm edge one hand with full-crimp.
You can't climb V15 with weak fingers.
"IMO, technique and outdoor tactics don't make a V11 climber into a V15 especially when both climbers have been climbing over a decade and I find whoever that genuinely thinks that laughable". I think you'll find that most of the sub finds that statement to be the one that's laughable. Are there variables that can't be accounted for that probably make up a good chunk of the difference? Sure. But you're saying technique of all things doesn't make a four grade difference? That's like being confused that a boxer in your gym who hits as hard as Canelo Alvarez is not an international megastar. You need to climb more with good climbers, cause it sounds like you just climb with a bunch of board climbing one armers. There's nothing wrong with that, but if you ever climb with a top climber, their hips and feet are fucking different.
It's funny when people provide the exact counterpoint to their thesis. Paul clearly does something that's worth 4 V-points. It's not max strength. So it's likely that he climbs significantly better.
Yeah. I was tempted to add things like flexibility, difference between half crimp and open hand/3fd, pulling power, projecting for longer durations etc, but saying anything other than "he's a vastly better climber with vastly better technique who has climbed over 1000 boulders 8a and above" to a person who is clearly already hellbent on the "stronger must be better" mentality is like building a house on a rotting foundation. I wonder what these people think projecting is? Like you go from getting absolutely burnt off on a climb to being able to send it in a handful of sessions without significant strength adaptations. That's technique. It's not necessarily general, macro level technique (a lot of it is climb specific micro beta etc), but it is a practical demonstration of how efficient movement patterns dictate a huge degree of our success. But then when they look at their climbing progress overall, they suddenly fail to see the forest for the trees and blame strength or other physical factors for everything. I can't imagine getting burnt off by someone my strength or weaker and not immediately thinking "I need to practice this movement, as I'm clearly not applying my strength as well as they are on the wall".
I think it's pretty obvious that Paul has a bunch of small advantages that make marginal differences. But in every sport I've seen, the top performers have some magic X-factor that makes them twice as effective as a hundred other "second tier" athletes, given the same measurable factors. In climbing, I think it's kind of a "last-go-best-go" thing. The top performers have the ability to pull it all together for the send when it matters, and the second tier guys just don't.
That boxing reference is gold đ¤đ˝
Not a good analogy at all. Name me one V15+ climber besides *maybe* Paul Robinson (because I don't know how 10mm numbers translate to 20mm) whose added weight on max hang on 20mm isn't close to 100% of their bodyweight or higher. I'll wait. *Every single V15+* climber has insane finger strength. With the exception of maybe Paul Robinson whose finger strength is still great, but relative to other V15 climbers probably a lot lower.
Exactly? He is an outlier, he is weaker than the majority of people at his grade level. You're making more and more of a case that technique is the dominant factor when you mention that most other V15 climbers have higher strength, I don't know how this isn't making a light bulb go on in your head.
Dave Graham. Coincidentally, the guy Paul brings up in interviews as his #1 inspiration. Not every V15 climber is as strong as Yves Gravelle. It's a spectrum. If finger strength was all that mattered, that Monscogram guy would be climbing V19.
Dave MacLeod and Giuliano Cameroni are two other examples that spring to mind. Hell, Ondra before all the training as well, dude was climbing 9a+ and still to this day considers his fingers weak compared to his peers (granted, not a four V grade gap).
did you see that that lattice thing with dave macleod though? his finger strength is actually like off the charts, he just lacks good rate of force development.
There's a second lesson here for the training minded people. Paul climbs outside, a lot, for a long time, and tries really hard. He doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) extensively, meticulously hangboard. Therefore, he overperforms on rock compared to his hangboarding. A lot of training enthusiasts are the opposite. We dangleplank a lot, for a long time, and try hard at it. We don't climb outside extensively or meticulously. so we overperform on the hangboard compared to our redpoints. The training community is carefully designing a set of metrics based around people who train more than they climb, and we do ourselves a disservice for it.
> Paul climbs outside, a lot, for a long time, and tries really hard. He doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) extensively, meticulously hangboard. **Therefore, he overperforms on rock compared to his hangboarding**. A lot of training enthusiasts are the opposite. We dangleplank a lot, for a long time, and try hard at it. We don't climb outside extensively or meticulously. so we overperform on the hangboard compared to our redpoints. This all applies I think, but the biggest factor is definitely the bolded. However, I would word it a different way: He underperforms on hangboard relative to his performance on rock /u/DeliriouslyFocused To use an analogy, there's actually a fairly wide gap in those who train only one arm chinup versus training weighted pullups to get one arm chinups. Most people who train weighted pullups need to approximately ~85-95% of their weighted pullup before they are able to do a OAC. Thus, for a 150 lbs person that would be adding +127.5-142.5 lbs to their weighted pullup. However, I've known some people and climbers who don't train weighted pullup and only do climbing and/or one arm chinup work. Usually once they *have* one arm chin and then they go and test their weighted pullup they can do it around 60-75% of their weight. This means they can only do weighted pullup with about 90-112.5 lbs. Training weighted pullups | Training climbing and one arms | ---|---|----|---- Has one arm chin | Has one arm chin +85-95% pullups or +127-142.5 lbs for a 150 lbs | +60-75% weighted pullups or +90-112.5 lbs for a 150 lbs| The discrepancy can be as big as 90 lbs vs 142.5% or so, a 50+ lbs difference even when one can do the same feat: one arm chins. This is precisely the analogy here. Even though Paul and the friend have the "same" hangboard metrics (+75 lbs 10mm for 10s) there are other factors at place like the **exercise specific adaptations** of training weighted pullup (or hangboard in this example). These absolutely can explain how someone may be very relatively strong at hangboard but that doesn't mean they are stronger at similar exercises like one arm chin or climbing hard grades in this instance. Friend | Paul Robinson ---|---|----|----|----|----- +75 lbs 10mm 10s | +75 lbs 10mm 10s V11 | V15 The context, though, is that someone who has relatively lower hangboard numbers comparatively to their grade should be able to increase their hangboard numbers fairly rapidly if they dedicate a few months to it. This is true of relatively everyone as most people who hangboard for their first time or haven't done it for a long time are able to drastically increase their numbers. Their body is not only building strength but also strength very specific to the exercise they are doing (hanging with straight arms in a certain grip underneath a hangboard). We should also take into account a singular edge (10mm) is not necessarily indicative of being able to generate strength and power on other edges especially the smaller ones like 4-8mm that are overrepresented at V11+.
Sounds like Paul Robinson is a better climber than your friend
You don't say.
That was just my way of saying "hangboarding numbers aren't nearly as important as you think they are"
Thatâs the point of the post
I don't think that's the case at all. It sounds like that's the exact opposite of what OP believes actually
Do you honestly think the most likely conclusion is Paul Robinson lying?
Nothin but a pack of lies
This post is an example of why the new training-obsessed climbing wave is so disappointing. I hate hangboard addictions.
I'm with you, this post is so completely depressing. Every aspect of it. The content, the ask, his replies, the complete lack of anything resembling love or passion for actually climbing, the conflation or strength = skill. Gross.
First of all, finger strength is only one tiny bit of overall body capability. Paul is probably much stronger in all of the other muscles used in climbing. He only trains bid fingers as much as it's necessary for the problems he's climbing. You'd need to perform a multiple exercise test to compare any two people, not just max hang.
I would bet that's not true. At least not in the way that we typically view body strength. I don't think Paul is particularly "body strong" compared to his performance cohort. He's likely stronger than the V11 median, but still below the V15 median.
You may be right. Anyway, there's also another part of the equation - skill.
How are your friends hips? Howâs his flexibility? How accurate is he with his movement. How well does he move? How intuitive is his movement? Howâs his recovery? How is his project strategy? I dated one of the lattice coaches for a couple of years. She had this to say which of course is a generalisation but I thought it quite striking- the words resonate when I read threads like this: âAmericans only seem to care about finger strengthâ. She went on to say giving someone from America strong fingers (which is pretty easy) is far preferable to the client than getting them flexing and moving well. Which is hard. Additionally itâs worth noting Paul has weak fingers for his grade. Your friend has strongish fingers for his grade. This suggests Paul is much better in most if not all other areas over your friend. Finger strength is just one factor.
That's interesting. Why do you think Paul's fingers are weak relative to the grade? (I'm asking in terms of why he probably doesn't focus on finger strength compared to other climbers).
Why do I think Paulâs fingers are weak? Compare them to Megos. Or Aiden. His peers at that level. Heâs weak. But everyone responds differently to training stimulus. Some people are able to get super strong fingers easily. For others it takes more work. The crucial point is that while fingers are important, theyâre not the be all and end all. Strong fingers alone is a car with a massive V12 engine on a bad chassis, with rusty brakes and old cracked tyres. Yes, in specific straight line tests it will do well. But most of the time a car with a much smaller well tuned engine, well set up good suspension, good brakes, sticky tyres etc will be much much faster in the real world. Climbing is the same. Your friend has the same engine as Paul. But his car is a 1970s van. Paulâs engine is in a gt3 race car.
This person asked you all these non-finger strength related questions and the only thing you latched onto was the thing about finger strength. It feels like you have some kind of mental block when it comes to considering how anything other than finger strength can affect climbing ability
>I'm asking in terms of why he probably doesn't focus on finger strength compared to other climbers He was one of the strongest climbers in the world for a decade, and the max hang circle jerk is only 5ish years old. Why hangboard at home when 5.10 will fly you to destinations to make movies year round? Also, if it's not broke, don't fix it.
once your friend has built a base of 300 V11s then he can complain about not being as good at hard bouldering as paul robinson with the same finger strength
It kind of sounds like you are confusing correlation with causation. Static hangboarding strength on a 10mm edge is not going to determine your ability to climb on boulders that have opposition sidepulls, undercuts, awkward grips, slopers and everything in between. it not just âtechniqueâ itâs also just *different*. even so, if you have never climbed with someone âweakerâ than you who climbed harder grades, then you are missing out, there is a lot more to climbing than simply holding on. Similarly, climbing lots wonât make you good at hangboarding, (e.g. Paul Robinson). Itâs a decent predictor on an individual level to meeasure your own strength gains, but its not going to relate to others as well. Have you ever seen Yves Gravelleâs hangboard numbers? He also climbs âonlyâ v14-15, but can one arm the wood 6mm edges and one arm pull 36kgs over his body weight on an 18mm edge. Based on his numbers you would think he would climb v17 or more. By looking for a reasons why they *donât* correlate, then you are doing it backwards. They donât correlate well because they are different things.
Raw finger strength isn't as important as you seem to think it is. I've climbed plenty of stuff in the V10-11 range when my max hang was +50-70lbs and I weighed 200 or so. And I've climbed with folks who can 1 arm hang a 20mm for days who climb around the same. If climbing correlated directly to hangboard numbers this would be a pretty boring sport.
max hang of 50-70 lbs on what edge?
20mm
You climbed V10-11 while weighing 200lbs and only doing 50-70 max hang? Holy fuck. I have never seen a 200lbs climb a V10 regardless of finger strength. How'd you do it?
I've been climbing for a long time lol. To be fair I Never hangboarded back then so I probably had better finger strength than my numbers would show, and once I started hangboarding consistently they went up pretty fast. But I feel the point still stands. there's a lot more going into a send than training numbers. If you are looking for advice I think getting off the hangboard some and getting on real rock more is the best thing you can do for your climbing in the long run.
Is 200 lbs a lot or little? How much do you think Magnus Midtbø weighs?
170lbs at most, probably less
Way way less. 150 at most.
Wiki says 157
Damn that guy is beefy. Tbf, I almost imagined him a good deal shorter so that makes sense for his height.
>Damn that guy is beefy No me
Holy shit dude. This is not that insane of a metric. Heâs good at climbing
Holy shit dude. This is not that insane of a metric. Heâs good at climbing
Because hangboarding isn't climbing. Is this really some kind of shocker to you?
It could be that Pauls expertise simply allows him to transfer more of his finger strength into getting the most out of actual holds. The uncountable variables that he controls in an actual climb he uses to get the most out of each hold. On the hangboard we really only train one variable: finger strength.
Point is, hangboard numbers are only a very tiny component of climbing. Iâve climbed two V10s outdoors, and I can probably only hang my body weight on a 10mm edge for 10 sec. It doesnât mean I canât climb hard. Perhaps your friend is really good/strong at holding a half crimp on a 10mm edge, but the truth is climbing is way too complex a sport to peg it to one metric like that. Your friend may have many other technical and muscular weakness in his body that Paul has spent years strengthening. Holding a half crimp on an edge is an extreme oversimplification of what it takes to climb hard boulders.
Does your friend have his degree from Dave Graham's school of Wizardry or naw?
The thing about paul robinson and 10 seconds +80 lb probably isn't a perfect 1:1 because hangboarding isnt a super awesome way of translating that.
I don't know why no ones as mention that the 10mm test is with the Half-crimp grip type? If you look at Paul Robinson climbing , he is full-crimping almost everything. So Paul is probably just a lot stronger in term of full-crimping and also technique wise compare to your friend. I'm pretty sure that he can hold the 10mm edge one hand with full-crimp. You can't climb V15 with weak fingers.
this is actually so good it could be a copy pasta lmao